The fact that she only had 0.4 in deduction after her Jaeger which meant she had done everything that counted towards her D score except her dismount is INSANE.
I hate the Pak angle deduction. I think Ashton has the highest Pak angle I’ve ever seen yet she still gets deducted.☹️ Really loved this breakdown though!!!
Yeah it's an absurd deduction that has nothing to do with actually performing the skill correctly. You might as well say that toe-shoots should be caught at 90 degrees, because... well, because we think parallel and right-angles are cute. ?
@@saipan6704 Laura Martinez in 2001 did Pak to handstand, and even Pak to handstand with 1/2 turn afterward! Look up "Laura Martinez UB AmCup 2001 " and "Laura Martinez UB ESP vs FRA 2001" here on UA-cam. I think a Pak to handstand deserves to be considered an E element in the code of points.
Realistically I don’t think there’s any possibility of a perfect 10 other than vault but even Simone biles isn’t able to hit a perfect 10 but she’s awfully close. Even that perfect vault back in 2012 by mckayla wasn’t a 10 execution although to my untrained eye it certainly was lol
I don't think there should be an angle deduction for pak salto, that seems ridiculous to me. The most beautiful paks are not the ones that finish in a handstand position. It looks robotic and ungraceful.
If there is no angle deduction in any of the skills, that would mean that everyone would have a high score! Becuase if there was an angle deduction people would be encouraged to work harder, and hit there skills.
The fact that everything has to finish in handstand position explains why there is lack of variation and skills among routines. Can you imagine trying to complete "the Strong" transition in a handstand?
@@maxglendale7614 Not everything has to finish in handstand, the Strong doesn't. I think they need to change the rule on Paks to be no deduction if it's caught within 45 degrees.
The way you format/present this is so helpful, thanks for a great video! Side note - I am amazed people can catch this stuff watching once in real time! I see a lot of the stuff, but things like subtle flexed feet or bent arms when they’re going so fast I would never notice
Her execution really was glorious. Honestly I wish she had gotten an individual bars medal at some point. (Also, great visual for this video! Really makes it easy to see exactly how the score breaks down.)
She absolutely deserved a medal at 2014 worlds. It's crazy how Spiridinova medaled there instead, when she had worse execution AND .1 lower difficulty routine.
I wish they would hire you to do this type of editing for the Olympics so those who don’t watch gymnastics regularly could appreciate exactly where the dedications come from. When all Tim comments on is the landing, it’s hard for viewers to understand scores. Even just doing the handstand angle tool would be a huge improvement! It could be part of the delayed prime time broadcast! Reach out to the broadcast department at NBC and see what they can do - can’t hurt :) maybe we’ll see your editing for Paris 2024
The changes in the way the E score is determined over the last few decades is wild to me. With all of these incredibles athletes continuing to push for bigger and better skills and still concentrating on flawless execution it becomes harder to take deductions but in counter newer technologies like HD replay, slow motion, frame by frame make it easier for judges to see the most minuscule imperfection that would be hidden from the human eye in real time. I'm not sure how I feel about it really since perfect tens from gymnastic legends of the past would probably be mid 8s with today's system but it is cool to see how it all breaks down.
she was relying on good execution because this wasn't her most difficult bar routine and she certainly had the best execution, it's a pity she fell on the finals :(
This is amazing! After watching most of your other videos I’ve been really curious to see how you would judge some really clean routines. Can you do this for the other three events as well?
I love your videos! Two questions: Did Ashton not have bent arms on the Jaeger? Also for the hips above the bar on release moves, is it when you catch/finish the salto that the hips must be above the bar or that they just have to reach above the bar at some point in the release?
@@FlipFlyTumble can you do mag cv videos? Especially on rings parallel bars and pommels. Also i think you should try to do some bar and floor d score from several gymnasts (men) as its quiet similar to women's.
@@anikokoren3417 Exactly. We've seen many gymnasts (including Locklear) complete a half turn without slightly overcooking it, so the judges must differentiate between the two.
@@anikokoren3417 She's a very tiny bit out of perfect alignment for microsecond, her body is in perfect alignment in a nearly perfect handstand by the time the skill actually finishes. That really doesn't deserve a deduction, particularly since she takes the time to actually remain in handstand at the top of the bar instead of just blowing past into the next element.
One thing which I'm not sure about: what's the body alignment deduction for? (at 0:28) The angle deductions I understand, if a handstand is past the acceptable angle, but I don't know what the alignment deduction is for.
Hard to see from this angle but she sort of got off balance and had to correct her handstand position, just briefly. Surely something that wouldn't get deducted *every* time but I don't think it's unreasonable to call out.
@@_padfoot ooh thank you! I've been working on trying to familiarize myself with common deductions, but there's still a lot I don't know, so I couldn't tell what was wrong then, or what an alignment deduction meant.
Also note that all these guidelines are about the hip/shoulder position prior to catching the bar, so it makes sense in this case that it's the shoulder height that is considered and not hip, since It would be basically impossible ti catch the bar with hips above. XD
@@harry4596 Ya I know that it is about when you reach your highest flight they should be above the high bar. before the Chinese started to do shapisnikovas like in 2009 all they would be deducted on was the shoot. And someone like Nastia has her hips higher almost all the time
@@triplefull7057 Shoulders yes, but certainly not hips. That would be a borderline impossible standard for low-to-high bar transitions. I think it's fair to say Nastia's shoots were exemplary, but you can see here at 0:09 her hips are not nearly above the bar: ua-cam.com/video/qtJeI_zioRQ/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Dee
This was really interesting seeing the angles broken down like this, happens so fast in real time (plus I'm just a casual watcher, not an expert) that to me, it all looks good. Is it even possible to get a 10.0 execution score now?
Ashton is the closest to that and honestly the deductions she got are kinda silly if you think about it, all the flex feet and small leg separation deductions could easily be avoided. Assuming if she fixed her dismount and had a perfect one, fixed those flex feet, body alignment after the toe half, she could’ve gotten a 9.8 execution or even a 9.9
Why did you judge the Pak angle after the moment her hands already hit the bar? I wouldn't take .1 there. Knocking her for body alignment on that giant 1/2 is way too picky as well - her legs are clearly together, she remains fully upright. It's fine.
Yes. When you land, you're supposed to keep your arms relatively still and bring them up for a salute. So when you make additional arm movements, they have to take a tenth off.
Yes, because many gymnasts (including Locklear) have landed without swinging their arms around to save the stick. They have to differentiate or else it's unfair to the athletes who don't have arm swing.
Yes, must show control of landing. Personally don’t like it, but guess it makes more sense in terms of if 2 gymnasts were to tie after D+E scores but one had a perfectly controlled landing and the other didn’t it wouldn’t seem as fair.
I would prefer no deduction for warm swing on landing. While it's true that it can differentiate a good landing from an even better one, I like the idea that fighting for a landing counts for something. And if an arm swing incurs the same deduction as the small step that the arm swing was intended to prevent, then I think it's unfortunate. Just one opinion.
the pak angle deduction is truly stupid. not only will it make gymnasts look more robotic, it can potentially cause more injuries for gymnasts by making them hit a solid handstand from a pak
The fact that she only had 0.4 in deduction after her Jaeger which meant she had done everything that counted towards her D score except her dismount is INSANE.
I hate the Pak angle deduction. I think Ashton has the highest Pak angle I’ve ever seen yet she still gets deducted.☹️ Really loved this breakdown though!!!
Yeah it's an absurd deduction that has nothing to do with actually performing the skill correctly. You might as well say that toe-shoots should be caught at 90 degrees, because... well, because we think parallel and right-angles are cute. ?
I’ve never seen a pak salto end in a handstand lmao
@@saipan6704 same and honestly it would be damn near dangerous for a pak to land at any less of an angle than hers did
This Pak is actually within 30 degrees and doesn't deserve a deduction there, but it does deserve a .1 deduction for having a bit of a rocky catch.
@@saipan6704 Laura Martinez in 2001 did Pak to handstand, and even Pak to handstand with 1/2 turn afterward! Look up "Laura Martinez UB AmCup 2001
" and "Laura Martinez UB ESP vs FRA 2001" here on UA-cam. I think a Pak to handstand deserves to be considered an E element in the code of points.
9.0E is the new perfect 10.
Realistically I don’t think there’s any possibility of a perfect 10 other than vault but even Simone biles isn’t able to hit a perfect 10 but she’s awfully close. Even that perfect vault back in 2012 by mckayla wasn’t a 10 execution although to my untrained eye it certainly was lol
to be fair, most of the perfect 10s back then were not really perfect
@@hannibaljustincase9985 Perfect is not really a stable concept, it's historical, so I don't think that's quite right.
@@hannibaljustincase9985 then that raises the question is perfection truly obtainable in gymnastics?
@@_padfoot can you elaborate on how perfect execution in gymnastics is not a stable concept?
I don't think there should be an angle deduction for pak salto, that seems ridiculous to me. The most beautiful paks are not the ones that finish in a handstand position. It looks robotic and ungraceful.
To finish the pak in a hand stand is practically a blind catch in handstand.
If there is no angle deduction in any of the skills, that would mean that everyone would have a high score! Becuase if there was an angle deduction people would be encouraged to work harder, and hit there skills.
The fact that everything has to finish in handstand position explains why there is lack of variation and skills among routines. Can you imagine trying to complete "the Strong" transition in a handstand?
@@maxglendale7614 Not everything has to finish in handstand, the Strong doesn't. I think they need to change the rule on Paks to be no deduction if it's caught within 45 degrees.
This kind of (angle) editing is just perfect!
The way you format/present this is so helpful, thanks for a great video! Side note - I am amazed people can catch this stuff watching once in real time! I see a lot of the stuff, but things like subtle flexed feet or bent arms when they’re going so fast I would never notice
Her execution really was glorious. Honestly I wish she had gotten an individual bars medal at some point. (Also, great visual for this video! Really makes it easy to see exactly how the score breaks down.)
She absolutely deserved a medal at 2014 worlds. It's crazy how Spiridinova medaled there instead, when she had worse execution AND .1 lower difficulty routine.
I wish they would hire you to do this type of editing for the Olympics so those who don’t watch gymnastics regularly could appreciate exactly where the dedications come from. When all Tim comments on is the landing, it’s hard for viewers to understand scores. Even just doing the handstand angle tool would be a huge improvement! It could be part of the delayed prime time broadcast! Reach out to the broadcast department at NBC and see what they can do - can’t hurt :) maybe we’ll see your editing for Paris 2024
The most shocking part about this was being reminded that Ashton locklear competed so recently...
This routine makes me happy
The changes in the way the E score is determined over the last few decades is wild to me. With all of these incredibles athletes continuing to push for bigger and better skills and still concentrating on flawless execution it becomes harder to take deductions but in counter newer technologies like HD replay, slow motion, frame by frame make it easier for judges to see the most minuscule imperfection that would be hidden from the human eye in real time. I'm not sure how I feel about it really since perfect tens from gymnastic legends of the past would probably be mid 8s with today's system but it is cool to see how it all breaks down.
she was relying on good execution because this wasn't her most difficult bar routine and she certainly had the best execution, it's a pity she fell on the finals :(
She was injured.
@@Appaddict01 she was already injured? I thought she injured herself during the routine in the finals
Leonardo Mangas She was injured going in and made it worse during EFs. That’s partly why her routine was so watered down.
This is a great learning video for gymnastic lovers like us
This is amazing! After watching most of your other videos I’ve been really curious to see how you would judge some really clean routines. Can you do this for the other three events as well?
I will work on it ☺️ thank you!
Such a beautiful bar worker! Queen Ashton
What exactly are judges looking for in a pak angle, doesnt seem to get any better than ashton so..
30° from handstand!
Her bars are gorgeous. She could have easily earned the bronze in 2016.
I love your videos! Two questions:
Did Ashton not have bent arms on the Jaeger?
Also for the hips above the bar on release moves, is it when you catch/finish the salto that the hips must be above the bar or that they just have to reach above the bar at some point in the release?
I think it's when you catch It.
I just checked and it says "prior grasp of the bar", so the hip position a momento before catching the bar
The bent arms wasnt really noticeable to me so i did not deduct
And yeah the height is measured just before you catch the bar
What software are you using to check the angles? It is really good! Love the vid!
I use adobe after effects. Thank you so much :)
@@FlipFlyTumble can you do mag cv videos? Especially on rings parallel bars and pommels. Also i think you should try to do some bar and floor d score from several gymnasts (men) as its quiet similar to women's.
Kyla Ross next? :)
Thanks, Emily!
at what angle is a pak supposed to be caught?
30° from handstand
Say what you want about her personality but that should be kept separate from this routine because it was pretty amazing
People that don’t do that are annoying as hell and generally make excuses for those they like.
congrats on the video, it was certainly not easy to make
Ashton should’ve been on that Olympic team...
The US would have had a second bars medal.
What’s the body alignment deduction before the jaegar?
I had the same question.
@@kamilaford5752 she overturned that half turn a little bit so she looket a bit crooked
@@anikokoren3417 Exactly. We've seen many gymnasts (including Locklear) complete a half turn without slightly overcooking it, so the judges must differentiate between the two.
@@anikokoren3417 She's a very tiny bit out of perfect alignment for microsecond, her body is in perfect alignment in a nearly perfect handstand by the time the skill actually finishes. That really doesn't deserve a deduction, particularly since she takes the time to actually remain in handstand at the top of the bar instead of just blowing past into the next element.
What is the body alignment deduction for?
One thing which I'm not sure about: what's the body alignment deduction for? (at 0:28) The angle deductions I understand, if a handstand is past the acceptable angle, but I don't know what the alignment deduction is for.
Hard to see from this angle but she sort of got off balance and had to correct her handstand position, just briefly. Surely something that wouldn't get deducted *every* time but I don't think it's unreasonable to call out.
@@_padfoot ooh thank you! I've been working on trying to familiarize myself with common deductions, but there's still a lot I don't know, so I couldn't tell what was wrong then, or what an alignment deduction meant.
On the shoot to HB the hips have to be above the HB not just the shoulders.But this is without a doubt the cleanest bar routine of the quad
i checked it is shoulders for transition elements!
@@FlipFlyTumble Interesting
Also note that all these guidelines are about the hip/shoulder position prior to catching the bar, so it makes sense in this case that it's the shoulder height that is considered and not hip, since It would be basically impossible ti catch the bar with hips above. XD
@@harry4596 Ya I know that it is about when you reach your highest flight they should be above the high bar. before the Chinese started to do shapisnikovas like in 2009 all they would be deducted on was the shoot. And someone like Nastia has her hips higher almost all the time
@@triplefull7057 Shoulders yes, but certainly not hips. That would be a borderline impossible standard for low-to-high bar transitions. I think it's fair to say Nastia's shoots were exemplary, but you can see here at 0:09 her hips are not nearly above the bar: ua-cam.com/video/qtJeI_zioRQ/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Dee
This was really interesting seeing the angles broken down like this, happens so fast in real time (plus I'm just a casual watcher, not an expert) that to me, it all looks good. Is it even possible to get a 10.0 execution score now?
virtually impossible. Many angels are simply just unable to be met by the vast majority of people, like catching a pak at full handstand
Ashton is the closest to that and honestly the deductions she got are kinda silly if you think about it, all the flex feet and small leg separation deductions could easily be avoided. Assuming if she fixed her dismount and had a perfect one, fixed those flex feet, body alignment after the toe half, she could’ve gotten a 9.8 execution or even a 9.9
Why did you judge the Pak angle after the moment her hands already hit the bar? I wouldn't take .1 there. Knocking her for body alignment on that giant 1/2 is way too picky as well - her legs are clearly together, she remains fully upright. It's fine.
great vid
Interesting. But is that ur original score right??
I wish I could use this when judging... 😂😂
do they have to deduct on the arm swing???
Yes. When you land, you're supposed to keep your arms relatively still and bring them up for a salute. So when you make additional arm movements, they have to take a tenth off.
Yes, because many gymnasts (including Locklear) have landed without swinging their arms around to save the stick. They have to differentiate or else it's unfair to the athletes who don't have arm swing.
Yes, must show control of landing. Personally don’t like it, but guess it makes more sense in terms of if 2 gymnasts were to tie after D+E scores but one had a perfectly controlled landing and the other didn’t it wouldn’t seem as fair.
I would prefer no deduction for warm swing on landing. While it's true that it can differentiate a good landing from an even better one, I like the idea that fighting for a landing counts for something. And if an arm swing incurs the same deduction as the small step that the arm swing was intended to prevent, then I think it's unfortunate. Just one opinion.
@@JSLemon Step should be .2 deduction is the issue (if it's more than a very tiny one).
what was the score she got
I don’t think there is a single deduction in WAG that bothers me as much as the pac angle deduction. It’s ridiculous!
I like the very vertical handstand, but I wish she held it longer.
I still preferred her bar routine for the 2016 team, her lines would have USA gold on bars.
She would have deserved to win with correct judging, but they wouldn't have let Mustafina lose.
How low is the lower uneven bar
Aliya next?
Besides kyla :)
A thing of technical beauty wasn't it! Um, what's with the flashing lights? Horrible idea.
I don't think the screens are actually flashing it's just how the camera is picking it up
ooh m G
the pak angle deduction is truly stupid. not only will it make gymnasts look more robotic, it can potentially cause more injuries for gymnasts by making them hit a solid handstand from a pak
Imo anastasia ilyankova had the best routine of this quad
the flashing screens are so distracting lol
she had to flex her feet, otherwise her feet would have hit the low bar
It’s too bad she didn’t do college gymnastics. She could’ve found the joy and gotten an education out of it as well. Moving on.
There were rumors that Ashton didn't feel prepared for the academic rigor required to do NCAA gymnastics.