Regarding prayer… I think it is important also to remember that gratitude to God is a form of prayer, saying thank you for some prior event is a form of prayer. I have had situations in my life that I would never, ever have consented to, if left to me, but that I have thanked God for after understanding the great good that came through such situations. My prayer of gratitude to God for such situations was chronologically posterior to the situations but, if it were known to God chronologically prior might have been, in some sense, be causally linked to the way God ordered the affairs leading up to the situation. Think then of situations we find ourselves in today… think of how it can seem impossible to make sense of some current problem… pray that God’s will be done and it might just be the case that you find that God heard your prayer and ordered things in such a way (or is willing to change some present dynamic) such that the situation turns out for your good. Sound a little familiar? Might it be the case that all things can work together for the good of those that love God and are called according to his purpose? The Molinist conception of what God knows provides one with such hope and such good reason for joy… and reason to worship such a great God whose depth of knowledge is, for us, unfathomable and unattainable.
Ah, yeah, except that Molinism makes God's exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge DEPENDENT upon His creation and the choices that creatures make. William Lane Craig and Pastor Mike Winger have both said exactly that very thing (I've documented it in a video I made called, "Molinism Rejected"). 'Blasphemy' is what that is called. Scripture clearly teaches that ALL of God's Attributes (including His 'free knowledge') are self-possessed and completely independent, and none are dependent on anything or anyone in His creation. Molinism teaches that God's Free Knowledge is DEPENDENT upon every event in time, and all the choices creatures would make. It's amazing how much twisted theology it takes to defend what is an unbiblical definition of 'human free will'. Scripture makes it clear that 'the power of contrary choice' is NOT the proper definition of 'human free will'. Human Free Will ain't 'the power of contrary choice'. I have a couple videos on this stuff. Again, I have a video that documents William Lane Craig and Mike Winger stating that God's knowledge is DEPENDENT on the creation. Check it out. Let me know your thoughts. *Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 //Ah, yeah, except that Molinism makes God's exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge DEPENDENT upon His creation and the choices that creatures make.// This is inaccurate. On Molinism, God's knowledge is NOT DEPENDENT on his creation, the knowledge rests in him and is from him alone. His Natural and Middle Knowledge would be the same even if he were never to create anything. Given that he would possess this knowledge apart from any creation, it becomes easy to understand why his Natural and Middle knowledge is INDEPENDENT of creation. This is a critique I have heard from folks like James White but rather than exposing a problem with Molinism, given that it is false, it exposes ignorance of the Molinist view of God's blessed mind.
@@gingrai00 WRONG!!! I have a video titled, "Molinism Rejected" on my channel, and I play a clip from Dr. William Lane Craig AND Pastor Mike Winger where BOTH of them explicitly state that "God's knowledge is DEPENDENT on the events that occur in time and the choices we make". See, it's YOU who doesn't understand the nonsense of the concept of "middle knowledge" in God. It's YOU who hasn't read what Turretin's conclusion of "middle knowledge" was. He concluded the same thing about Middle Knowledge that WLC and Mike Winger have both affirmed (arrogantly, I might add) that this idea of "middle knowledge" in God makes God DEPENDENT upon His creation for His knowledge of it. Got Systematic Theology? Got Historical Theology? Got proper definitions of 'human free will' and 'responsibility'? Molinists don't. The biblical definition of 'human free will' is NOT 'the power of contrary choice'. The biblical definition of responsibility negates the idea that 'the power of contrary choice' is the prerequisite which establishes it. Yet, all forms of synergism (attempting to steal glory from God Himself through false doctrines) are DEPENDENT on these two assumption/presuppositions. And, remember, BOTH WLC and Mike Winger (Molinists) have EXPLICITLY stated that "God's knowledge is DEPENDENT on the events that occur in time and the choices we make". And, that, of course, is blasphemy; and all because of a false idol: Human Free Will (the false definition of it, that is). More questions? Let me know. *Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 I didn’t suspect that you would be persuaded. You are clearly not in touch with what Molina wrote and you misunderstand the communications from WLC who is in touch with Molina’s writing. The Concordia is a bit daunting but worth a read through just so that you are able to know what Molina said about the Molinism. I’m sure you will want the last word so I will happily grant it to you. Take care.
@@gingrai00 Did you actually watch the video where I exposed WLC and Mike Winger for teaching the blasphemous notion that God's knowledge is DEPENDENT on the events that occur in time in creation and the choices we make in it? I didn't think so. Shame that you insist on insulting me with your arrogance, as well as your Antichrist/Jesuit speculative theories about the Creator you would claim to worship. Shame that you don't understand the proper conclusion of your own idolatrous system. William Lane Craig and Mike Winger most certainly do, though; and their honesty in the midst of their lies is truly refreshing; that's why I had to capture both men spewing their nonsense (cf. "Molinism Rejected," by me). Go watch it; then come back and apologize for your arrogant insults toward me. *Soli Deo Gloria*
That bit around 45 minutes about God knowing what we would freely pray or not pray about, is really great. I love how it brings life to the verse that says “we do not receive because we do not ask and when we ask we do so with the wrong intentions”. It explains the verse, but also allows God to know whether we would or would not pray and what exactly we would or would not ask for. I like this saying I thought of (never heard anyone else say it like this anyway): “We don’t know what God knows about us, until we freely choose it.” Molinism is awesome 👍
@Sage of Synergism God knows that you would pray to pass and if it’s in God’s will, then he created a world in which you would pass. If you did not ask to pass, you can’t blame God for not helping you to pass. If you do pray and you pass, you can be happy that God was with you in your endeavour. God knows that you will freely choose to pray, he did not create a world in which you do something other than what you freely choose to do. If you pray to pass the test, God knew you would pray and if you don’t pray for it, He knew you wouldn’t. If he created a world in which you do not pass the test, then you passing is either not in his Will for a greater purpose, you asked with wrong intentions (selfishness), or he simply knew you wouldn’t ask.
Also regarding prayer… we have good biblical reason to think that God might will to do something but that he wills to do that something in response to prayer. Read the story in Mark about the time just following the transfiguration where Jesus instructs his disciples… “this kind comes out only by prayer.” Agents… persons make all the difference. If there are actual persons, agents who have causal powers, God being three such persons, then that makes quite a difference about outcomes made possible through prayer… especially since God’s intellectual perfections includes the kind of insight bestowed on one with Middle Knowledge.
Attn. Tim Stratton, Does Molinism allow you to believe that God can freely choose to change His own mind? Does Molinism allow you to believe that God can experience changes in His knowledge? Molinism at least on the surface appears to allow you to believe that God a long long time ago was freely able to choose between an innumerable selection of possible worlds and futures the actual world and future allowing for our choices to be freely made in as much harmony with His intentions as possible but just because God could freely choose back then it does not follow that He ( God ) can freely make choices today now that ate actual world and future has already been chosen a long time ago. Does your Molinism allow you to believe that God can freely choose today to replace the actual future and actual world He chose a long time ago with an alternative possible future and possible world making it the actual future and actual world?
This was AWESOME, Kirk made some extremely helpful points here. Thank you for posting Tim!! I am curious: Do you or Kirk think that people have counterfactual power over things that have influenced them in the past? For example, could I pray for God to have made it such that I was born in Africa? Thanks so much again.
Thank you, Chris! To answer your question: No! People cannot successfully pray for things to have happened which they already know to be true or false. This is why in Kirk’s example of Reagan’s being President, he set up the example such that the elementary school girl had no prior knowledge of whether Reagan was President before her prayer.
Tim, From my perspective Molinism is way too focused on reconciling a belief that we have free will with a closed theism understanding of God's foreknowledge and not nearly as focused on reconciling a belief that the God we pray to has His own free will ability to freely make His own choices with a closed theism understanding of His foreknowledge. When we pray we do not pray to free will bearing humans hoping they will intervene in our behalf but rather we pray to a free will bearing God hoping He will freely choose to intervene in our behalf. A belief that God has His own free will ability to freely make His own choices is of far greater importance to a high view of God than a belief that we have free will. Tim, does your Molinism enable you to truly believe that God truly has a free will ability of His own to freely make His own choices including the choice to make changes to the future? After all, If God cannot make changes to the future then to what extent can He really make choices at all? Now if God cannot experience changes in His knowledge as so many of us have been taught then to what extent can we really believe that He can freely choose to make changes to the future?From my perspective Molinism still requires a belief that irregardless of other "possible" futures the only future that God is able to face is a future that is so totally and unchangeably written in stone that even God Himself cannot make changes to it. If Molinism truly allows for a belief that God truly has a free will of His own and can freely choose to make changes to the future then please explain how.
Regarding prayer… I think it is important also to remember that gratitude to God is a form of prayer, saying thank you for some prior event is a form of prayer.
I have had situations in my life that I would never, ever have consented to, if left to me, but that I have thanked God for after understanding the great good that came through such situations. My prayer of gratitude to God for such situations was chronologically posterior to the situations but, if it were known to God chronologically prior might have been, in some sense, be causally linked to the way God ordered the affairs leading up to the situation.
Think then of situations we find ourselves in today… think of how it can seem impossible to make sense of some current problem… pray that God’s will be done and it might just be the case that you find that God heard your prayer and ordered things in such a way (or is willing to change some present dynamic) such that the situation turns out for your good. Sound a little familiar? Might it be the case that all things can work together for the good of those that love God and are called according to his purpose?
The Molinist conception of what God knows provides one with such hope and such good reason for joy… and reason to worship such a great God whose depth of knowledge is, for us, unfathomable and unattainable.
Ah, yeah, except that Molinism makes God's exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge DEPENDENT upon His creation and the choices that creatures make.
William Lane Craig and Pastor Mike Winger have both said exactly that very thing (I've documented it in a video I made called, "Molinism Rejected").
'Blasphemy' is what that is called.
Scripture clearly teaches that ALL of God's Attributes (including His 'free knowledge') are self-possessed and completely independent, and none are dependent on anything or anyone in His creation.
Molinism teaches that God's Free Knowledge is DEPENDENT upon every event in time, and all the choices creatures would make.
It's amazing how much twisted theology it takes to defend what is an unbiblical definition of 'human free will'.
Scripture makes it clear that 'the power of contrary choice' is NOT the proper definition of 'human free will'.
Human Free Will ain't 'the power of contrary choice'.
I have a couple videos on this stuff.
Again, I have a video that documents William Lane Craig and Mike Winger stating that God's knowledge is DEPENDENT on the creation.
Check it out.
Let me know your thoughts.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 //Ah, yeah, except that Molinism makes God's exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge DEPENDENT upon His creation and the choices that creatures make.//
This is inaccurate. On Molinism, God's knowledge is NOT DEPENDENT on his creation, the knowledge rests in him and is from him alone. His Natural and Middle Knowledge would be the same even if he were never to create anything. Given that he would possess this knowledge apart from any creation, it becomes easy to understand why his Natural and Middle knowledge is INDEPENDENT of creation. This is a critique I have heard from folks like James White but rather than exposing a problem with Molinism, given that it is false, it exposes ignorance of the Molinist view of God's blessed mind.
@@gingrai00 WRONG!!! I have a video titled, "Molinism Rejected" on my channel, and I play a clip from Dr. William Lane Craig AND Pastor Mike Winger where BOTH of them explicitly state that "God's knowledge is DEPENDENT on the events that occur in time and the choices we make".
See, it's YOU who doesn't understand the nonsense of the concept of "middle knowledge" in God.
It's YOU who hasn't read what Turretin's conclusion of "middle knowledge" was. He concluded the same thing about Middle Knowledge that WLC and Mike Winger have both affirmed (arrogantly, I might add) that this idea of "middle knowledge" in God makes God DEPENDENT upon His creation for His knowledge of it.
Got Systematic Theology?
Got Historical Theology?
Got proper definitions of 'human free will' and 'responsibility'?
Molinists don't.
The biblical definition of 'human free will' is NOT 'the power of contrary choice'.
The biblical definition of responsibility negates the idea that 'the power of contrary choice' is the prerequisite which establishes it.
Yet, all forms of synergism (attempting to steal glory from God Himself through false doctrines) are DEPENDENT on these two assumption/presuppositions.
And, remember, BOTH WLC and Mike Winger (Molinists) have EXPLICITLY stated that "God's knowledge is DEPENDENT on the events that occur in time and the choices we make".
And, that, of course, is blasphemy; and all because of a false idol: Human Free Will (the false definition of it, that is).
More questions?
Let me know.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 I didn’t suspect that you would be persuaded. You are clearly not in touch with what Molina wrote and you misunderstand the communications from WLC who is in touch with Molina’s writing. The Concordia is a bit daunting but worth a read through just so that you are able to know what Molina said about the Molinism.
I’m sure you will want the last word so I will happily grant it to you.
Take care.
@@gingrai00 Did you actually watch the video where I exposed WLC and Mike Winger for teaching the blasphemous notion that God's knowledge is DEPENDENT on the events that occur in time in creation and the choices we make in it?
I didn't think so.
Shame that you insist on insulting me with your arrogance, as well as your Antichrist/Jesuit speculative theories about the Creator you would claim to worship.
Shame that you don't understand the proper conclusion of your own idolatrous system.
William Lane Craig and Mike Winger most certainly do, though; and their honesty in the midst of their lies is truly refreshing; that's why I had to capture both men spewing their nonsense (cf. "Molinism Rejected," by me).
Go watch it; then come back and apologize for your arrogant insults toward me.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
great breakdown Kirk
That bit around 45 minutes about God knowing what we would freely pray or not pray about, is really great. I love how it brings life to the verse that says “we do not receive because we do not ask and when we ask we do so with the wrong intentions”. It explains the verse, but also allows God to know whether we would or would not pray and what exactly we would or would not ask for.
I like this saying I thought of (never heard anyone else say it like this anyway):
“We don’t know what God knows about us, until we freely choose it.”
Molinism is awesome 👍
@Sage of Synergism
God knows that you would pray to pass and if it’s in God’s will, then he created a world in which you would pass. If you did not ask to pass, you can’t blame God for not helping you to pass. If you do pray and you pass, you can be happy that God was with you in your endeavour.
God knows that you will freely choose to pray, he did not create a world in which you do something other than what you freely choose to do.
If you pray to pass the test, God knew you would pray and if you don’t pray for it, He knew you wouldn’t.
If he created a world in which you do not pass the test, then you passing is either not in his Will for a greater purpose, you asked with wrong intentions (selfishness), or he simply knew you wouldn’t ask.
I love you both! Keep up the good work👊👊
My professor speaking to a professor at a college 45 minutes from me about Molonism 👍 cool.
Also regarding prayer… we have good biblical reason to think that God might will to do something but that he wills to do that something in response to prayer. Read the story in Mark about the time just following the transfiguration where Jesus instructs his disciples… “this kind comes out only by prayer.”
Agents… persons make all the difference. If there are actual persons, agents who have causal powers, God being three such persons, then that makes quite a difference about outcomes made possible through prayer… especially since God’s intellectual perfections includes the kind of insight bestowed on one with Middle Knowledge.
Great insight, Bill!
Attn. Tim Stratton, Does Molinism allow you to believe that God can freely choose to change His own mind? Does Molinism allow you to believe that God can experience changes in His knowledge? Molinism at least on the surface appears to allow you to believe that God a long long time ago was freely able to choose between an innumerable selection of possible worlds and futures the actual world and future allowing for our choices to be freely made in as much harmony with His intentions as possible but just because God could freely choose back then it does not follow that He ( God ) can freely make choices today now that ate actual world and future has already been chosen a long time ago. Does your Molinism allow you to believe that God can freely choose today to replace the actual future and actual world He chose a long time ago with an alternative possible future and possible world making it the actual future and actual world?
This was AWESOME, Kirk made some extremely helpful points here. Thank you for posting Tim!!
I am curious: Do you or Kirk think that people have counterfactual power over things that have influenced them in the past? For example, could I pray for God to have made it such that I was born in Africa? Thanks so much again.
Thank you, Chris!
To answer your question: No! People cannot successfully pray for things to have happened which they already know to be true or false.
This is why in Kirk’s example of Reagan’s being President, he set up the example such that the elementary school girl had no prior knowledge of whether Reagan was President before her prayer.
@@FreethinkingMinistries Awesome, thank you. So what if I do not remember whether or not I was born in Africa? Then can I pray about it?
1:10:32 to 1:13:23 elevator speech. That is a long elevator ride. 😁
Tim, From my perspective Molinism is way too focused on reconciling a belief that we have free will with a closed theism understanding of God's foreknowledge and not nearly as focused on reconciling a belief that the God we pray to has His own free will ability to freely make His own choices with a closed theism understanding of His foreknowledge. When we pray we do not pray to free will bearing humans hoping they will intervene in our behalf but rather we pray to a free will bearing God hoping He will freely choose to intervene in our behalf. A belief that God has His own free will ability to freely make His own choices is of far greater importance to a high view of God than a belief that we have free will. Tim, does your Molinism enable you to truly believe that God truly has a free will ability of His own to freely make His own choices including the choice to make changes to the future? After all, If God cannot make changes to the future then to what extent can He really make choices at all? Now if God cannot experience changes in His knowledge as so many of us have been taught then to what extent can we really believe that He can freely choose to make changes to the future?From my perspective Molinism still requires a belief that irregardless of other "possible" futures the only future that God is able to face is a future that is so totally and unchangeably written in stone that even God Himself cannot make changes to it. If Molinism truly allows for a belief that God truly has a free will of His own and can freely choose to make changes to the future then please explain how.
The argument was doomed the moment it was conceived with the word “fixity” in its title🤪