Thanks! Future Gohan is one of my favorite characters and I always like to give him his due credit. But something I think is worth noting as a possibility is future Goku being stronger or relative to present Goku because of training by himself vs with people which could theoretically lessen his gains. And it just being a statement giving respect to his dad and Gohan already surpassed him etc.
10:38 I just realized this is just like when Vegeta knocked out kid trunks before blowing himself up against Buu. Both versions of Trunks have a moment where their father figure knocks them out before going off to a fight they know they won’t come back from
i like to believe future gohan was as strong as fused piccolo. Trunks is convinced that the future androids were weaker, but subtext in the story tells us they were just fucking with him. So assuming these androids were as strong as the main continuity ones, it would be safe to say that gohan without the guidance of goku or piccolo managed to get as strong as fused piccolo if not a little bit stronger. I feel like that's a fair place to put him. Piccolo wasn't ever close to beating 17, but he was giving him a good fight. Gohan had to fight against two androids while protecting trunks and later on with one arm.
Future Vegeta woulda saw Goku defeat Frieza and King Cold on Earth by himself. So there’s no reason to believe his training went any different alas he still unlocks Super Saiyan. Even still, Future Vegeta falls to the androids. Hop over to the present timeline and what do see? Vegeta goes and trains. But when he comes back, Piccolo thinks he’s stronger than Goku with or without the virus. So, we can say that Future Vegeta is definitely stronger than the Goku that came back to Earth AND stronger than Future Trunks that came back in time. Future Gohan states himself that he was aiming to be as strong as Goku was when he came back to Earth. By the time he dies, even if he’s on that level(doesn’t seem like it), that Goku was still FAR weaker than Fused Piccolo because Piccolo had trained with THAT version of Goku for 3 years before fusing with Kami.
Honestly, the fact that Gohan was so weak after a decade of training is the biggest plot hole and in the manga trunks even had SSj, so its even worse. He had a SSJ training partner and he still couldn't ascend.
@@விஷ்ணு_கார்த்திக் As stated by Goku, training ain't just forcing your body to the limit every day, that's actually torture, training also relays in resting and relaxing. Two things that Gohan could not do much in the future timeline. A Goku makes a lot of difference in the training efficience of everyone.
@@TheGotreck Vegeta&Trunks did not train by goku's methods and they still managed to grow stronger. Gohan is too gifted to not have surpassed or at least equaled androids in strength after 10 yrs. This is why i prefer the Anime, the manga made 17 vs gohan a one sided godstomp. In the anime Gohan was so strong that 18 had to join in and gohan was still able to hold his own for a while. And the cherry on top? Gohan surpassing the androids individually explains why they decided to finally kill him cus he went from being their toy to actual threat.
@@விஷ்ணு_கார்த்திக் Vegeta and Trunks trained together inside the room of time and space, wich is a training way better than anything Gohan had acess to. But I do agree that the anime is better and that it makes more sense for Gohan to achieve the power needed for the androids to actually see him as a valid treath.
Yep. I started watching Qaaman back when he had his original profile with the braids. Your timeline explanation video is still one of my all time favorites. Thanks for everything so far Qaaman !
My thing here is that if Trunks was weaker than Future Gohan, he would have known that. He could feel his own ki and compare it to how he remembered Gohan's being.
The problem is Trunks thought he was handling the androids 2v1 but they were holding back on him. Gohan also fought the androids with them holding back so its really hard to say
@@CZPC I assume they were training together. That's how Piccolo knew Goku's power was off against 19. If you're training with somebody, you know their full power.
I love how the anime gives you the sense that Gohan could have beaten the androids if he hadn't chosen to save trunks or if he wasn't ganged up on. Much better story mechanics in the anime imo which makes his loss feel even more tragic. And that being the moment when trunks finally transforms? Amazing, no notes. Part of the reason this is my favourite arc although would have loved to see future gohan whoop the android wraps up so nicely with teen gohan beating cell and trunk's revenge in the future.
Let's keep in mind Gohan is still Gohan and he has that sleeping massive jungle of power inside of him. Also the timelines have weird ways of mirroring one another in far different scenarios 🤔.
Nah..Future gohan was depressed. Nothing left to fight for really. With everyone he grew up close to was gone. Yea he care for trunks and bulma. But it dont and never will hit as deep as krillin piccolo and goku..due to this being a weaker gohan their deaths is what got him ssj. And they believed ssj was the pinnacle of power.. It cut his power just like his arm
11:45 Well hold on. Cell had to factory reset back to his larva form to fit in the time machine. So anyone he absorbed prior to time traveling to the present timeline would be mute and not attribute to his power after.
I don't think so, cell blew himself up to smithereens and he regenerated even stronger than before, so why would he lose the power boost he absorbed from the humans by reverting to larva form?
@@விஷ்ணு_கார்த்திக்That’s different, Cell was already perfect before which means it’s a sure fire guarantee that Cell could re use his Perfect Form, not only that Larva is straight up regression.
Is it accurate to say cell kept the power of the future humans? He had to revert to a egg to come to the past and spend 4 years growing. Its more likley he had to regain his power
Cell retained the power he got from 18 and was able to return to his perfect form without her inside him because his cells remembered the power boost from when he absorbed her. This is evidence that Cell retains the power of those he absorbs even if he temporarily loses it by reverting back to a weaker form
not only did he not need 18 to regain his perfect form after blowing himself up, but he also has frieza'a DNA in him. it has been shown on screen that frieza is capable of suppressing his power through his 1st, 2nd and 3rd forms. of course this is just an assumption, but i don't think it's crazy to say that cell, theoretically, could do the same, since it's shown on screen that he did not need the androids to regain strength he already had after absorbing them.
The one armed kamehameha vs the Androids is a bit deeper than that. Future Gohan doubted himself and because his father wasn't around, he never truly awoke. Just like against cell, he had a one arm kamehameha and doubted himself but his father spurned him on to remove all doubt. In the future, he's alone. He's got one arm. But there's no Goku in his head, his succumbs to his own doubt. This is why the Dokkan Original animation of Future Gohan's active skill is so amazing. They introduce Goku and Piccolo spurring him on from the afterlife and it's enough to awaken him to finish the job.
@@Blackraptor1234 True, even if most of the cast is dead they are not out of the game, it's like Yugioh graveyard. If Uranai Baba is still alive, she can temporarily bring any of them back, and they can still train and communicate and support that way. During the Majin Buu arc the situation gets much worse than the future timeline ever did and it could still be solved.
@@Blackraptor1234 One thing that came to my mind is that Kami has to manually preserve their bodies for the afterlife. So if Piccolo dies early, the rest would die as spirits and be inactionable, probably like Kuririn on Namek. I wonder what Karin is doing throughout all these things. I don't think he's ever threatened by anything until Buu
@@Blackraptor1234 Kami can presumably still affect his own body and Piccolo's but then it's over, and he's the one that died last. The plot hole here is that their corpses didn't disappear from the battlefield but they were still corporeal in the afterlife. Toriyama genuinely forgot there.
@@mrrictus ???? popo is at a level that is undefined, its so high there aren't any terms that can describe his power. Outerversal fodder is nothing to Mr. Popo don't disgrace his name
I like in Yu Yu Hakusho that they cover this, powers are not treated as numbers or "if you do push-ups really _really_ hard, you go up" To go up a Class Rank, it's not about strength, but also about a state of mind, how you live and how you view the world. This is why, the higher you go up the echelon, the less brute the demons start looking, because it's meant to reflect how they get their minds together. Dragon Ball briefly touches this in other parts of its stories. It is strongly hinted that the reason why nobody ever climbs beyond the rank of Freezer, is because anyone that attempts to? Is found out and pressed under Freezer's thumb, denied the opportunity to climb higher, even going to being body snatched by Ginyu at anyone that goes too far. Future Gohan can't climb up the ranks because, theoretically, brute forcing the body even with zenkais, gives little rewards now. You need to clear your mind and actually think of other ways than just tiring your body in a brawl. Again, with the Yu Yu Hakusho example, there's a reason why Genkai is called "Genkai" the translation is "Limit." With Genkai's training, that's meant to be the limit of what that training can give you, to climb to A or S rank, you need a clarity of the world. Sensui achieved this clarity through Sacred Energy, which is only achievable through a state of mind. Of course, then comes the Three Kings arc, where Yusuke's demon friends climb to S through her training, but that's an example of how Togashi kind of dropped the ball. Though he kind of explains it that it's not just the training, but rather how Yusuke _influenced_ them to get stronger on top of it, just like Raizen did to his friends.
Its strange because you would think with all the butt woopings he got he would be stronger. I heard a lot of theories why his strength didn't improve much some of them being that he never properly rested to feel the effects of his near death encounters. I forgot who mentioned it was something about energy and how the right state of mind can benefit a warrior. Like the s cells saiyans have, the more good and kindhearted they are the more easily their strength progresses (thats why goku always had the edge against vegeta, and yk its the goku show). So with that being said after experiencing constant defeat after defeat gohan's state of mind wouldn't be all that positive as he has seen nothing but everything he wants to protect being destroyed and being able to do nothing about it other than postpone the inevitable, so with this damage to his psyche him perceiving himself as powerless really turned him into that. That and it was said he took some time off to train but it didn't really amount to much as the andriods were holding back the whole time, I belive they weren't even using 50% of their power. So with his lack of training expertise and no knowledge of a form beyond super saiyan (both vegeta and goku knew that there was a form beyond it after achieving it pure blooded saiyan instinct I guess?) he was only destined for failure. And the last theory which is my favorite, is that Akira Toriyama needed him to lose to start the whole andriod/cell saga which to be honest I believe this to be the most likely case as its said he wrote the story as he went. Which it isn't bad but I do like how dragon ball fans come up with all these theories when the answer can be super simple as "Toriyama forgot" or "its needed to progress the story".
I found the guy who mentioned the stuff about the mind ua-cam.com/users/shortszUrIz9p56fs?si=OhzjPICycBDSHrPd If I find the stuff about S cells and Vegeta and Goku knowing of a further form I'll link them
He didn’t get stronger because saiyans can’t get zenkai boosts from fighting androids. There’s a lot of evidence from the series that points this out. LaughingStock Media made a video on this and explains it pretty well.
My head canon is that after saiyans become supersaiyans, they either don't get zenkai boosts or it becomes a really small increase like 1% so it is practically non-existence. Otherwise, even at a standard increase of 30%, similar to the won Vegeta got after the Saiyan Saga, there shouldn't be any reason why Future Gohan or Trunks couldn't eventually beat the androids. Especially Future Gohan since it seems like he's been fighting them for years. Again, this is a head canon I hold, not saying that it is right, just that it makes most sense to me given the lack of evidence of any significant zenkai's post Namek/Frieza saga.
@@kava3957 Again, it's probably just a plot hole that was later covered up like the guy below said. They did get Zenkai boosts, but since they were already super saiyans, it didn't amount to much.(This was stated by Toriyama in an interview) And then super changed everything 🤣
@@QaamansLand well, what about Frieza's base durability without being enhanced by ki? He was bisected and unconscious but still survived a planetary explosion without using any ki to bolster his defense. Whereas in DBZ or DBS they will show characters getting injured by inane things because they "let their guard down".
To be fair most power scaling in the DB community comes from analysis or headcanons because if we’re being honest, it’s simply just a writing inconsistency for many of these unanswered questions
I really like this in-depth video about the Android saga, its my fav topic, and it was hella interesting exploring future Gohans Battle power. Great video, will watch it again for reference. :D
The future timeline is always something I wish we got more to see; especially during the time between when Goku returned to stop Frieza and King Cold to the events of May 12th. Granted. I always feel that the idea of “less is more” is something I always stick by and not explaining everything for the audience is better. However, in this case, because of how broken everything is in the future timeline, we definitely deserve to see something extra add into it
The anime seems to pretty much always scale higher than the manga, and all for the sake of drama. Example; 100% power Frieza was seen to be able to hold his own far better against SSJ Goku on Namek, while in the manga it was clear that Goku was just toying with him. Gohan having a final fight against both 17 and 18 was more dramatic than him just getting whooped by 17 alone. So he has to scale way higher for the sake of the fight.
The hardest character to scale in my book is Beerus and Whis. Like how do I know when they are serious. What is the extent of Angels magics like freaking time reversal is so darn broken. In terms of of the past now its South Kai buu my fave not seen for more than 2 episodes like intelligence and fighting prowess. Did Buu become a creational God then over his destruction chaos.
I know that. I got into a debate with someone recently who says vegeta didn't, and even after I gave him proof from the manga he still says Vegeta didn't unlock it lol@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GODI know he does. I got into a debate recently with a guy who says he didn't. Even after I gave him proof from the manga lol he says Vegeta never got it. I was like you " how is that even a question?"
i personally believe he was roughly the same level as ssj goku at the beginning of the android saga but just had more knowelage of the way the androids fought allowing him to appear to be more advanced against them..
About the "theoretical Zenkai Boost." I think it was a Laughing Stock Media video? But you wouldn't get a Zenkai Boost from fighting Android 13-20 because as you cannot sense their Ki, the Sayian body cannot feel the Ki to scale up to.
Saiyans cannot sense ki by default. Goku could not until he learned it from Kami, and Vegeta could not until he figured it out after fighting Goku. Saiyans get zenkais without this ability.
Man I wish Gohan after receiving his implied zenkai had both arms when he fought the androids I do think he’d beat either 1 on 1 and they’d have to go really serious to beat him. If he had just waited till Trunks got stronger to the point he could hold his own against him as he stated when going back in the past then they’d beat the androids 2 on 2. But I know Gohan’s death was needed, as it was the catalyst for Trunks growing tremendously in power. First by unlocking super saiyan and later training and getting to a similarly implied power range as Gohan because he had that drive to avenge his master/friend
Ironically, 17 and 18 getting so strong throughout Super's time would have been easier to explain if the future Androids were much stronger as time went on. They were decimating the population, whereas 17 gets to the level of SSJ3 god-ki infused Goku by just ranging an island. It could have still aligned with Gohan not being strong enough despite his high potential, and Trunks could have both A. been stronger in the meeting with Goku, and B. trained after present Cell's defeat. As much as I hate retcons, even that could have helped out some discussion.
They defeated further future Cell and present cell was destroyed along with gero's lab as he was still an embryo Future Cell gets killed by trunks who already killed the androids earlier
@@_WiZ420 can you read moron before getting sassy, we don't know how strong present super cell could've been since he got killed off as a embryo but maybe he could've been stronger than a super saiyan 2
Video suggestion. What if future Goku doesn't die. I feel like instant transmission would be a God send. And they basically Time Chamber train earlier.
I feel like Future Goku would do a lot of the same stuff his Main Timeline counterpart would do had he lived to fight the androids, Cell and buu,including instructing everyone to enter the chamber to get stronger.
Depends on the timeline,if it's the anime special timeline Goku will just go to the time chamber for like 3 month's with Piccolo or Vegeta and defeat the androids and after that it just ends since this timeline is just not the same as the canon future timeline making speculations about Moro or Buu insignificant. If it's the canon Future timeline,Future Goku will train in the time chamber for a longer time period with Piccolo or Vegeta again kill the Androids,stop Buu's ressurection earlier than Trunks and after that he would keep training and pushing the others to get stronger with his presence until Goku Black arrives to this timeline,there are now two possibility's one is Goku kills Goku Black because he is not used to his body yet and he is definetly above the Buu saga tier at this point and he manages to seals Zamasu or Zamasu and Goku Black wins after killing Goku and Bulma.
Hey Q. Where do you get these colored panels from? Ive noticed almost always they incorrectly color SSJ eyes as blue. When theyre more Turqoise/greenish/blue combo. Or lighter green. Its super consistant incorrect coloring too
@@QaamansLand I think I know which ones you're talking about since it was completed. I guess I wonder why the people are so inconsistent/changed it. Makes me think they're partially color blind or something and didn't realize
@@QaamansLand what I've noticed too is in the original full color release. They were turquoise tinted still. But shuesha...forcibly changed them to blue in the most recent colored release. Like...cmon lmao
The only thing I would say about this is, and I forget where I heard it so unfortunately I cannot provide a source, Zenkai boosts stop once a Saiyan unlocks the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan, as the unlocking of the first stage of that form is in of itself a response to extreme trauma much in the same way the boost is, thus making it serve as the final ultimate Zenkai Boost. As well as that, going off of the theory that Zenkai Boosts are scaled to the biggest immediate threat sensed by the recovering Saiyan, it's said that Goku received such a staggering boost because he felt Frieza's insanely increasing power while healing in the chamber. Thus it makes sense that even if Gohan could receive a Zenkai Boost, he would not be able to sense any power from the Androids and thus he would not be able to scale as high as he needed to in order to rival them to any real degree. These are just my thoughts on a part of the matter though, great vid!!
Trunks said Goku got that virus slnot long after her came back to Earth. When Trunks went back to help with the Androids, he was shocked at how late Goku got sick. So with this information, it’s clear that Future Gohan was comparing his power to Goku's when he came back to Earth.
@@QaamansLand Then this must be another of Toriyama's retcons. He really doesn't write time travel plots well. Either that or Goku got sick early but actually died nearly 3 years later. Because Trunks did tell Goku he would get the virus soon, not in nearly 3 years.
So to me here is the manga future gohan At base he is under post-yardat goku and at super saiyan he is under android saga super saiyan vegeta. In the anime, future gohan is around android saga vegeta/picckami, so yeah. In the episode ghost from tomorrow, future trunks is around android saga goku I think ghost from tomorrow is probably from the original trunks, History of trunks and the manga are around the same but different in some aspects.
Cause the story is limited by the world. SSJ2 DIDNT EVEN EXIST! When a Tik Tok kid asks you why Goku didn’t turn SSG against Majin Buu… THE ANSWER IS THAT IT DIDNT EXIST! Power levels aren’t real. It was a plot device.
I think he's way stronger than fused piccolo since he fought the android tag team on a daily basis and survived. Even after he lost his arm he did pretty well. Remember the scene where 18 and 17 rushed him down at the same time and he managed to deflect every punch with just one arm?
I disagree that he's the hardest to power scale in Dragon Ball Z. There's so much evidence, as you presented in this video, to suggest a range of power between SSJ Vegeta (when he fought 18) to Piccolo (when he fought 17), when factoring in manga AND anime. That's a large gap, but not outrageous. Who TRULY is hard to power scale is Majin Buu. It's nearly impossible to figure out where he lies on the power scale. He's always playful, so it's hard to gauge just how powerful he actually is when fully serious. His body type is perfect for blunt attacks, but fragile to sharp objects and ki blasts. He also HEAVILY relies on regeneration. He would've been dead multiple times without it. Here's the evidence using manga only: 1) Dabura threw a spear through Majin Buu's chest, because Majin Buu has ZERO awareness. Without regeneration, it's tough to say if he dies from that. Did it go through vital organs? That said, strong DB characters have survived worse when the plot requires it lol, so he likely survives regardless, but his power would've been crippled. 2) Despite that, Buu dispensed of Dabura pretty easily, and Gohan was scared to fight him as a Super Saiyan. This confirms to me that when focused, Buu is stronger than Perfect Cell at least. Gohan wishes he could go Super Saiyan 2, but would SSJ2 be enough? Well.... 3) IMajin Buu legit got bodied by Majin Vegeta early on. Without regeneration, he dies to Vegeta's Final Impact attack. Then, he dies AGAIN to Final Explosion. He doesnt make it past Majin Vegeta without regeneration. 4) When Goku fought Majin Buu, he acts like Super Saiyan 2 isnt enough. He's likely factoring in regeneration, but then... 5) After Goku goes Super Saiyan 3, he says something like "I'm not doing any damage to him whatsoever". His body type seems impervious to SSJ3s physical attacks, which is insane and suggest he could legit contend with SSJ3 Goku. But then Goku blasts him through the chest with a Kamehameha. Again, Buu dies without regeneration. But if Buu was focused and trained, could he have avoided that attack? So, Majin Buu is stronger than Cell for sure. But is he stronger than a Super Saiyan 2? He would've been killed by Vegeta, twice, had it not been for his regeneration. But he's also a seemingly untrained fighter who is playful. If he was serious AND didnt have a fragile body AND was a skilled martial artist trained to utilize his power correctly, how strong could he be? Could he give SSJ3 Goku a run for his money? *His Power Scale range goes from "Slightly weaker than a Super Saiyan 2" >>>> "Slightly stronger than a Super Saiyan 3", because we dont know how impactful his NON-power related strengths and flaws are. That's a ridiculously enormous range.*
Majin Buu is on SSJ3 level in terms of power, his durability is just inconsistently drawn to show his regeneration ability, how hard he is to kill, comedic purposes, and honestly just bad writing. Kid Buu and Majin Buu are almost equal in terms of power. SSJ3 Goku could beat them but SSJ3 drains a lot of energy while Buu has unlimited stamina and extremely efficient regeneration. Polar opposites. Also, Majin Buu was more than likely holding back against Vegeta until Buu got pissed off. He ended the fight pretty quickly and beat Vegeta without much effort.
My personal headcanon was always that Buu’s power level isn’t all that high, but thanks to his near immortal body he doesn’t need to use any of his ki on defense - which is why so many attacks deal serious damage to him. Between his body and magic Buu doesn’t need to have highest power level to be most dangerous
Let me rework the whole power scaling of F.gohan But let me put some Letters in short for words. G.F.T is for ghost from tomorrow M is for manga H.O.T. is for history of trunks B is for Base F is for Future SS is for super saiyan Let us start, remember that some scalings are just guesses at this point but let me tell ya this is just for fun and may be a better scaling. In the Manga, F.Gohan, said he couldn't surpass Goku and if we take into account that future goku may have just trained moderately, which means he'll have a power difference, from just arriving at earth to living in earth. B F.Goku (M) - 9,210,000 SS F.Goku (M) - 460,500,000 And with the androids, 17(M) - 1,004,000,000 18(M) - 950,200,000 Reason why the androids here are much powerful is due to the fact F.17 told F.gohan that he didn't even use half of his power So let's scale F.Gohan in the Manga. Considering half of 17 is about 502,000,000 then F.Gohan should be even lower and since he didn't even surpass a goku after staying in earth for a bit before dying by the virus, then B F.Gohan (M) - 6,250,000 (lower than B F.Goku....) That means.. SS F.Gohan (M) - 312,500,000 So teen trunks time, In the manga F.Teen Trunks had super saiyan before gohan died, but the thing is, F.Teen Trunks couldn't even beat B F.Gohan meaning.. he is weaker than B F.Gohan. So B F.Teen Trunks (M) - 46,000 He should be at that level Because SS F.Teen Trunks (M) - 2,300,000 Because he couldn't even beat B F.Gohan at SS. Time for G.F.T I won't scale this one because it is just like the manga in power for gohan and trunks they are utterly powerless against the androids but performed better compared to the manga. So here are the differences for base power, Note : Trunks doesnt have SS here. B F.Gohan (G.F.T) - 6,250,000 (400,000+) B F.Teen Trunks (G.F.T) - 46,000 (920,000+) The reason why trunks here is even more powerful is just due to being able to survive an attack by 18 and also cut a bit of her hair. (Yes I'm seriously gonna count that) The androids here just have no increases nor decreases in power. H.O.T. *"EVEN IF YOU MANAGE TO KILL THIS BODY SOMEONE WILL SURF ABOVE ME AND DESTROY YOU NOT ONE LIFE WILL BE ACCOUNTED FOR NOT ONE"* *"Gohan why did you have to leave me.. Gohan? GOHAN GOHHAAAN!!!!!"* B F.Teen Trunks faired better against B F.Gohan, Teen Trunks didn't have super saiyan at this point (yet.) B F.Teen Trunks (H.O.T.)- 2,300,000 B F.Gohan (H.O.T.) - 25,000,000 The reason gohan is this high is because the anime special (H.O.T.) buffed F.Gohan Up more to handle at least 1 android (I'm just trying to make sense ok?), SS F.Gohan (H.O.T.) - 1,250,000,000 The sole reason why gohan is this high is because of the fact F.Gohan could actually handle one android but since they actually jump him, he just gets beaten down 18 (H.O.T.) - 950,200,000 17 (H.O.T.) - 1,004,000,000 I'm keeping the androids here the same since the scaling for the manga works for the H.O.T. special as well. Enough yapping time for the final light of scaling. SS F.Teen Trunks (H.O.T.) - 115,000,000 Ik some of you are somewhat weirded out by me putting teen instead of kid for F.trunks it's because F.trunks is actually 14 in the future timeline at least was 14 when F.Gohan was alive So for adult trunks just add 3,000,000 to his base and then multiply it to 50 for SuperSaiyan So basically, B F.Adult Trunks - 5,300,000 If we do SS Then SS F.Adult Trunks - 265,000,000 Perfectly enough for him to oneshot king cold and defeat frieza easily and not beat goku So main timeline goku when first arriving at earth would be at B Goku - 7,150,000 SS Goku - 357,500,000 So even if F.Gohan meant this goku who just arrived then in the manga he never surpassed goku. Is this power scaling accurate qaaman cuz I think it's good enough cuz I think it's good enough to make sense. Future Z fighters - Considering most didn't train much then this would be somewhat more accurate. (Only vegeta and piccolo would've trained moderately) F.Chaozu - 8,200 F.Tien - 47,500 F.Yamcha - 29,000 F.Krillin - 75,250 F.Kid Gohan - 19,000 (due to overstudying) F.Piccolo - 2,610,480 (if a fusion with Kami would've happened then piccolo's power would've been above at least around imperfect cell) B F.Vegeta - 4,100,000 SS F.Vegeta - 205,000,000 So the reason why vegeta didn't have lots of increases is because of goku's death, because goku made vegeta have the reason to train so that's why F.vegeta is weaker. Imperfect cell - 3,200,000,700 B F.Adult Trunks - ??? SS F.Adult Trunks - ??? I pretty much will not try to guess a F.trunks that left the time chamber But let us talk about infected goku, let us say the virus is a ÷25 of the goku's base form So F.goku at base with the heart virus infected would have a power level of 368,400 (F.goku would be at 9,210,000 so doing ÷25 as the heart virus kicking in, then you would know goku would absolutely have been 100% murdered by final form frieza on namek if goku was infected at the time, this is my guess for decreasing goku in power and eventually having him dead which is sad but dragon ball is dragon ball) Present Z fighters (android saga) - After our boy trunks warned them, they trained now our heroes will bust at the androids Chaozu - 20,000 Tien - 140,000 Yamcha - 95,000 Krillin - 300,000 Kid gohan - 2,450,000 B Vegeta - 23,000,000 B Goku (Healthy) - 19,500,900 SS Goku (Healthy) - 975,045,000 B Goku (Virus) - 780,036 SS Goku (Virus) - 39,001,800 Android 19 - 538,900,000 Dr.Gero - 730,000,000 SS Vegeta - 1,150,000,000 B F.Trunks - 16,840,000 SS F.Trunks - 842,000,000 Piccolo - 812,300,200 Reason why trunks is this high because he said that he could put up a good fight against his androids of his time, so the increase Power makes sense when you take what he said into consideration 17 - 2,850,000,000 18 - 2,780,200,000 The reason why they are stronger is because of the Z fighter just becoming stronger. 16 - 4,300,000,000 Picckami - 3,200,000,000 Let's talk about moves, in the start of DBZ the scouter showed us the moves increasing someone's power So let's say the kamehameha for example, it may be given goku the multiplier of 2.2x So let's say this Kamehameha - 2.2x Special beam cannon - 3x Destructo-Disc - 2.9x Galick gun - 2x Final flash - 4.4x Kikooho (idk the move that tien used) - 10,000x. For some forms that don't have multipliers at all like grade 3 and 2 I'm gonna come up with these multipliers. SS grade 1 - 50x SS Grade 2 - 75x SS Grade 3 - 90x (muscle mass = decreased speed) SS Grade 4 - 50x (no drain) SS2 - 100x Let's get back into it, this has just became a guessing game of domination multipliers. The training that F.trunks and vegeta did in the time chamber is focused on getting stronger, they only focused on increasing their power and only power. So this makes F.trunks and vegeta only have a 3x multiplier for them but F.trunks will increase more While for gohan and goku they gained up to 3x increase and gohan will have 40x (he is like 2,450,000) Piccolo trained alone (he'll gain a 2x) I will show give base power increase for everyone B "Teen" Gohan - 98,000,000 B Goku - 97,504,900 B vegeta - 57,500,000 B F.Trunks - 56,500,000 Piccoami - 6,400,000,000 You do the math for the forms man I'm gonna die.. Anyway for imperfect cell, his power level is gonna be 2,900,000,000 just to be able to defeat 17 or 18 individually. So at this point, let's talk about cell's forms, from 2,900,000,000 at first. Let's set up multipliers for him just so I'll finally stop freakin typing Also yeah cell bullied a F.trunks. Semi-perfect basically is a 1.5x Perfect form is a 2x Are we done? Also yes super perfect is a thing but it's basically a massive zenkai 😑 At this point this became a future timeline-cell Saga power scaling.. well idk anymore lol (hope qaaman sees this)
Read it all, my only 4 issues: 1. B. Teen Trunks at 115 mil seems way too high considering the fact that he is almost as strong as Frieza. As a SSJ being around 60-70 mill seems more accurate. 2. Also, by your logic, Future Gohan is the strongest character in the world? You would also have to consider he lost an arm which means even what you stated is theoretically less than what he would be capable of without a handicap. 3. The gap between 17-18 seems way too large. 17 is stronger but the gap needs to be smaller. 4. You need to scale future Gohan to other Ssj's. SSJ Future Vegeta / Present SSJ Vegeta Piccolo before fusion and after fusion Imperfect Cell Goku SSJ (healthy) vs Future Goku (infected) Great job so far. I look forward to your edits.
Harder to scale if you also include the second movie where it’s not clear how strong Gohan is. No idea if he “kept training” or if he’s even in ssj2. If both are true then in second coming he’s probably around kid Buu, if not then he’s probably around if not a bit stronger then Debura. (Also a bunch of other little things to consider.)
I’d say DBZ Broly is slightly weaker or equal to SSJ3 Goku in Second Coming. It was stated that Gohan kept training meaning LSSJ Broly ate a straight punch to the face from SSJ2 Gohan without flinching.
I know he doesn't achieve it, but I always liked to think Gohan was right there at Super Saiyan 2, he just never fully reached it because he was so weak by that point with losing his arm and stuff. And to me I always felt like he was just tired and didn't have that fire in him as much as he did when he fought Cell. Like his Spirit was always near empty when he died.
Julia Child’s Beef Bourguignon recipe Ingredients: 2-½ pounds beef chuck shoulder, cut into 1” cubes 1 teaspoon kosher salt ¼ teaspoon freshly cracked black pepper 6 ounces bacon, cut into 1" squares (1-½ c) 1 tablespoon vegetable oil 1-½ cups carrots, cut into 1" pieces 1-½ cups yellow onions or shallots, roughly chopped 2 cups dry red wine like Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot 2 tablespoons flour 2 cups beef stock or bouillon 2 tablespoons tomato paste 1 teaspoon dried thyme or a couple fresh sprigs 2 bay leaves (remove before serving) 10 pearl onions (optional, but nice addition) Mushrooms 10 ounces cremini (button) mushrooms, quartered or halved, depending on size 2 tablespoons butter (or more as necessary) 2 tablespoons garlic, minced Olive oil as needed Salt and pepper to taste Additional Ingredients 4 tablespoons flat leaf Italian parsley, chopped 1 pound egg noodles instructions: Pat the beef dry and cut into 1” cubes. Season with 1 teaspoon kosher salt and ¼ teaspoon freshly cracked black pepper, and set aside. Heat 1 tablespoon vegetable oil over medium heat. Add the bacon (it should sizzle). Cook for about 5 minutes, stirring occasionally. Remove with a slotted spoon and set aside. Add beef cubes (make sure they sizzle when touching the oil) and brown on all sides, about 5 minutes. Make sure not to overcrowd the pan. Remove with a slotted spoon and set aside. Add carrots and onion (or shallots) and stir for about 3 minutes. Season with ½ teaspoon kosher salt and ¼ teaspoon freshly cracked black pepper. Add the cooked bacon and browned beef cubes, add 2 tablespoons flour, give it a really good stir, and cook for 2 minutes. Add 2 cups red wine, 2 cups beef stock, 2 tablespoons tomato paste, thyme, bay leaves, and pearl onions. Bring to a boil. Stir and reduce to a simmer. Now, it’s time to put the lid on. Stir every 15 minutes or so to make sure you’ve got a good simmer going and nothing sticks to the bottom of the pan. After about 1-½ hours, it should be ready, or close to it. Now is a good time to taste. Don’t sweat it if it still seems a little strong on the wine taste. It’ll mellow. But make sure it doesn’t need any more kosher salt. Now that the beef bourguignon is almost ready, we’re going to sauté the mushrooms. In a large frying pan over medium heat, melt 2 tablespoons butter until it slightly bubbles and foams. Add minced garlic for just 30 seconds (you want them fragrant but not burned) and add the mushrooms. Stir, add a little olive oil (or more butter) if you think the mushrooms are too dry. Season with a pinch of kosher salt and freshly cracked black pepper. Cook for about 5 minutes. Add the sautéed mushroom-garlic-butter mixture to the Dutch oven and give it one more last stir. Serve over your favorite side dish. In my case, that’s buttered extra-wide egg noodles. Sprinkle with chopped parsley and pour everyone a nice glass of red wine. 🥄 Taste, taste, taste
I think that the theoretical zenkai was mute because he lost an arm meaning the loss of strenght from the arm and the strength boost of the zenkai canceled each other out
Toei's version of Future Gohan is obviously on par if not even stronger than Kamiccolo. Dude took two androids head on and was still holding his own pretty well (yes I know the future androids are probably weaker but it doesn't matter) until they ganged up on him synching their moves which ultimatly led Gohan to his inevitable death. Kamiccolo and 17 were even and no one could outlast each other with Piccolo having more power to output while 17 having infinite stamina (Gohan quickly gained the upper hand against 17 and 18 had to interviene because otherwise Gohan would've smoked 17) Future Gohan vs Kamiccolo is something that came across my mind years ago and I've always thought Gohan was the one who was going to be on top seeing how well he performed against both androids at the same time despite having one arm 🎉 Manga Gohan is probably as strong as his dad before he died
@@QaamansLand Obviously yes, post Zenkai. if Kamiccolo shot that light grenade against 17 instead of Cell he would've gotten blown up that's for sure😂, no more barrier to save the day hehehe
1:29 Actually there is an official daizenshuu timeline chart and the Future Version of Goku dies roughly 1 year after he kills Mecha Frieza,so he shouldn’t have been that much if at all stronger than Yardrat Goku before he died.
No he doesn't. Using the official series it's a 3 year skip and Goku dies 6 months before so it's almost 3 years. The present Goku was health until the androids showed up so it was delayed and he never needed to take the medicine until the full 3 years passed.
@@QaamansLand He does,he literally dies in the same year he kills Mecha Frieza i can show you the official daizenshuu timeline chart,if you got discord or whatever i can gladly show you it. Whereas Present Goku is meant to die 3 years after Mecha,this means manga Future Gohan is at most as strong as Yardrat Goku and thats being generous.
KC is very open ended but I think Goku defeating him and frieza alone in the future timeline is a good thing to keep in mind. That said, like many other villains in the saga, future KC may be far weaker than the prime timeline counterpart too
You touched on something I've had on my thoughts for years about Theoretical Zenkai boost. During the Anime Filler portion of Z between Frieza and the Androids while Goku was in Otherworld: What effect would a Theoretical Zenkai Boost have on a Saiyan who got to keep his body while in Otherworld? If Goku is technically a spirit, and he went through so many intense battles where a fatal incursion was not possible due to already being a spirit, does that ability turn off? Assume it either turns off or doesn't, when brought back to life by the Dragon Balls, its natural to guess that the Zenkai Boost would have increased his power since the last time he was a Living Mortal. We know from Vegeta's Zenkai Boost that one does not need to keep there body upon entering Otherworld to recieve this powerup... So in the case of Goku who would have gotten much stronger due to his battles in Otherworld, how does the Theoretical Zenkai boost effect Anime Goku's power? Would it account for why Goku was so confident in the Buu Saga? Honestly I felt Goku was near egotistical but had to have so much power at his disposal due to being a Zenkai Boosted Spirit.
Without seeing trunks vegeta doesn't know there can be more than one super saiyan he was never a training type before Goku so he might not try without the warning of the androids killing his less trained self. @@QaamansLand
@@psychotropicfan No bruh. As soon as Vegeta THOUGHT Goku was a Super Saiyan, he started chasing the power himself. Future Vegeta seeing Goku defeat not only Frieza on Earth but also King Cold would definitely push Vegeta. He didn’t even give a damn about the Androids lol If anything, Vegeta’s power almost scales 1:1 between the Present and Future timelines IMO. I don’t hear about the Future Androids going 1v1 against Future Vegeta.
Future Gohan stated he was aiming for Goku’s power when he returned to Earth and Vegeta was far more powerful than that after getting Super Saiyan. When Vegeta fights 19, Piccolo thinks Vegeta is stronger than Goku with or without the virus and that’s after they trained for 3 more years.
You forgot one thing - Future Gohan was broken psychologically due to the future timeline's situation. He explicitly thinks Trunks would be the one to destroy 17 and 18 - Gohan totally gave up on himself. Does that affect his fighting ability and ability to draw out power? Hmm, maybe?
I mean Toriyama originally stated that Super Perfect Cell had a PL of 1.2 Billion at the end of the Android Arc just to establish how the heros had grown in comparison.
I wonder if the Idea that Hybrid Saiyans have more potential is simply developed off of how insane Gohan's potential has been in the Dragon Ball series and that maybe other hybrid saiyans powers are just "unique at best"?!? 🤔
Yeah, the sad thing is, we know that losing an arm costs someone a ton of their ki power, so if future Gohan hadn't lost his arm, there's a chance he would've survived and even been able to eventually surpass the androids. It doesn't make sense they'd let him live so many times and then just kill him. He was their entertainment. But they probably recognized how much stronger he was getting and that he'd be trouble alongside Trunks not too long from when they killed him, even with him down to 1 arm
In the DBZ Bardock the Father of Goku Movie Comic, there is a little extra story about Trunks and Gohan. In it, Gohan conceded Vegeta being stronger than him. This was neat man, but im not sold. Because cell had to revert to his larva state, he was likely weaker initially. He was strong enough before traveling to the past to beat Trunks. Trunks not only compares himself to Gohan, before fighting androids, but also says Yardrat Goku is better than he had heard. He also says goku gives him hope, and this after he just said the androids were the the biggest baddys around. I do agree Trunks likely didnt know the full extent of the future androids, but being able to hold his own vs getting 2 shot by present 18, makes me think his comment about present androids being stronger than future holds up. I also think trunks did worse against androids than gohan because of experience. Grade 1 was still an issue for stamina. Gohan likely managed this better.
You could go back and forth on Gohan's performance but it Trunks being able to put up a decent fight would probably mean he knew he wasn't being toyed with that much. If he knew they were messing around it would be mentioned. Trunks is kinda dumb compared to the other fighters, but I think he'd notice if they were just messing around and laughing at him. And on the "narrative" side Trunks is said to be superior to Gohan in the anime too, like, a lot. He does worse though. As for Vegeta, it kinda depends which version we're looking at. Most of them though have it as 18 holding back but Vegeta being relative until his stamina drained and then he gets beat up. Some sources even say he was equal to her.
My estimates prior to watching the video: We know Goku mostly did spiritual training on Yardrat, so his PL couldn’t be that different from when he fought Frieza (minus an unquantifiable Zenkai). We also know from the timeskip from the 23rd Budokai to Raditz, that Goku doesn’t train THAT MUCH in peaceful times IF he thinks he’s the strongest around. Manga Future Gohan said he wasn’t much stronger than Yardrat Goku so there you go. Anime Gohan is at least relative to 17 & 18 individually since he held his own against them while they went all out. He even overpowered the two of them in a beam clash. So he’d have to be near Piccolo’s level after he absorbed Kami
@@QaamansLandI definitely didn’t take the filler scene and Trunks’ solo fight with the androids into account lol. I’m glad we had a somewhat similar train of thought. Personally imo in the manga it’s: Trunks < Yardrat Goku < Future Gohan = Goku at the time of his death
I think when he says he’ll never be as strong as his dad I think it’s a similar sentiment as when Gohan just assumed goku was still stronger than him when they both left the room of spirit and time. He looks very highly of his dad so could never see himself surpassing goku so in reality future Gohan is probably a little stronger or equally powerful as goku was before he passed.
In the words of TFS Tien “fuck power levels” Anime Future Gohan was done well and better than the manga and was depicted as this absolute badass and no one cares about his power level lol 😂
The androids were probably holding back against Future Trunks too just like future Gohan. They wouldnt want to lose their last sourcr of entertainment. Trunks wouldnt know that they held back so would assume he is holding his own just like Future Gohan
Gohan was a Super Saiyan for a very long time thinking about it. After Piccolo and Krillin died the rage from it caused him to turn Ssj. Meaning he was around the same age as the alternate timeline when he transformed as well. It's a bit strange he didn't start to adapt and even slowly master SsJ just by having the form for so many years. Even with his inexperience in training and fighting after so many years of fighting the Androids and training by himself he should of been stronger. He was 23 and he was 10 when the Androids killed everyone. Not to mention every time Gohan fought the Androids he got a Zenki boost from his beating. I'm guessing he was so weak because his mindset weakened his chi like when he had the kame ha battle with Cell. His doubts and sadness cut his power in half so I'm guessing with everyone dead and Gohan failing he was depressed and crippled his power. Farther evidence of this is when Trunks came with him to fight the Androids stated Gohan was more dangerous then usual and fired up. I think Trunks was helping his emotional state so his chi started to climb
Off topic: your Piccolo-clothed persona looks good, but on certain frames the shoulder parts look wrong. The cape should go above the shoulders, wrapping around them. It looks wrong when the cape only shows behind the arms, like some kind of curtain in the background.
@@QaamansLand At 2:33, for example. The right arm (on our left) is fine, but the left arm (on our right) looks wrong (Piccolo's shoulder is never exposed like that). At 4:23, both shoulders are also wrongly exposed, imo. But at 6:09, both arms look fine (shoulders properly covered, with the cape wrapping around them).
@@QaamansLand I see. I don't think it's the angle, as the cape should wrap around the arms, so the shoulders should be covered no matter the angle. As far as I know, Toriyama has never drawn these clothes this way. Anyway, in the end it's a small thing, so feel free to disregard it. Still nice art.
Thanks! Future Gohan is one of my favorite characters and I always like to give him his due credit. But something I think is worth noting as a possibility is future Goku being stronger or relative to present Goku because of training by himself vs with people which could theoretically lessen his gains. And it just being a statement giving respect to his dad and Gohan already surpassed him etc.
That's a great point but you can also argue it's harder to gain when you are by yourself unless you use the gravity room like Vegeta ||
@@QaamansLand exactly it's all a possibility. It can depend how weak your opponents are too etc.
Thanks for the Super Thanks btw.
I don't know why it's so hard to powerscale future Gohan. It's easy to scale him. Just do it one arm at a time.
😎😎😎😎😎😎
10:38 I just realized this is just like when Vegeta knocked out kid trunks before blowing himself up against Buu. Both versions of Trunks have a moment where their father figure knocks them out before going off to a fight they know they won’t come back from
Gohan was more like a big brother to Trunks
@@JDB_Art Gohan was more of a father figure to Bulma behind the scenes.
@@frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr what the fuck do you mean with that
@@surpriseman Daddy.
@@frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrTeam 4 star reference?
i like to believe future gohan was as strong as fused piccolo. Trunks is convinced that the future androids were weaker, but subtext in the story tells us they were just fucking with him. So assuming these androids were as strong as the main continuity ones, it would be safe to say that gohan without the guidance of goku or piccolo managed to get as strong as fused piccolo if not a little bit stronger. I feel like that's a fair place to put him. Piccolo wasn't ever close to beating 17, but he was giving him a good fight. Gohan had to fight against two androids while protecting trunks and later on with one arm.
Your comment suggests you agree that he got much stronger and got a Zenkai in the 1 year gap
Fused Piccolo was going to beat 17
Future Vegeta woulda saw Goku defeat Frieza and King Cold on Earth by himself. So there’s no reason to believe his training went any different alas he still unlocks Super Saiyan. Even still, Future Vegeta falls to the androids.
Hop over to the present timeline and what do see? Vegeta goes and trains. But when he comes back, Piccolo thinks he’s stronger than Goku with or without the virus. So, we can say that Future Vegeta is definitely stronger than the Goku that came back to Earth AND stronger than Future Trunks that came back in time.
Future Gohan states himself that he was aiming to be as strong as Goku was when he came back to Earth. By the time he dies, even if he’s on that level(doesn’t seem like it), that Goku was still FAR weaker than Fused Piccolo because Piccolo had trained with THAT version of Goku for 3 years before fusing with Kami.
That was always my theory as well, it does make sense
@@pedroroque829 It does not
Future gohan's clash beam struggle also foreshadowed cell's clash beam struggle against "teen" gohan
mmm down an arm and killed by an android... why do i get this weird sense of deja vu?
Honestly, the fact that Gohan was so weak after a decade of training is the biggest plot hole and in the manga trunks even had SSj, so its even worse. He had a SSJ training partner and he still couldn't ascend.
@@விஷ்ணு_கார்த்திக் As stated by Goku, training ain't just forcing your body to the limit every day, that's actually torture, training also relays in resting and relaxing. Two things that Gohan could not do much in the future timeline.
A Goku makes a lot of difference in the training efficience of everyone.
@@TheGotreck Vegeta&Trunks did not train by goku's methods and they still managed to grow stronger. Gohan is too gifted to not have surpassed or at least equaled androids in strength after 10 yrs. This is why i prefer the Anime, the manga made 17 vs gohan a one sided godstomp. In the anime Gohan was so strong that 18 had to join in and gohan was still able to hold his own for a while.
And the cherry on top? Gohan surpassing the androids individually explains why they decided to finally kill him cus he went from being their toy to actual threat.
@@விஷ்ணு_கார்த்திக் Vegeta and Trunks trained together inside the room of time and space, wich is a training way better than anything Gohan had acess to. But I do agree that the anime is better and that it makes more sense for Gohan to achieve the power needed for the androids to actually see him as a valid treath.
Quinn is the true dragon ball OG on youtube. My favorite part isnt only the topics but the background music its the best classic dbz.
He definitely has OG Status
Yep. I started watching Qaaman back when he had his original profile with the braids. Your timeline explanation video is still one of my all time favorites. Thanks for everything so far Qaaman !
Kinda sad that even if you low-ball Resurrection of F saga SSJ Gohan, he would still be leagues above Future Gohan in power.
I totally agree especially since we dont see enough of future Gohan
EXACTLY,
Gohan is half human. Who is the pink hair lady
My thing here is that if Trunks was weaker than Future Gohan, he would have known that. He could feel his own ki and compare it to how he remembered Gohan's being.
You can also argue that Gohan was just a better fighter and Trunks was really inexperienced.
Welcome to Vegeta vs Goku argument.@@QaamansLand
The problem is Trunks thought he was handling the androids 2v1 but they were holding back on him. Gohan also fought the androids with them holding back so its really hard to say
Trunks never saw F. Gohan go FP. He knocked his ass out remember?
@@CZPC I assume they were training together. That's how Piccolo knew Goku's power was off against 19. If you're training with somebody, you know their full power.
I love how the anime gives you the sense that Gohan could have beaten the androids if he hadn't chosen to save trunks or if he wasn't ganged up on.
Much better story mechanics in the anime imo which makes his loss feel even more tragic. And that being the moment when trunks finally transforms? Amazing, no notes. Part of the reason this is my favourite arc although would have loved to see future gohan whoop the android wraps up so nicely with teen gohan beating cell and trunk's revenge in the future.
Let's keep in mind Gohan is still Gohan and he has that sleeping massive jungle of power inside of him. Also the timelines have weird ways of mirroring one another in far different scenarios 🤔.
Nah..Future gohan was depressed. Nothing left to fight for really. With everyone he grew up close to was gone. Yea he care for trunks and bulma. But it dont and never will hit as deep as krillin piccolo and goku..due to this being a weaker gohan their deaths is what got him ssj. And they believed ssj was the pinnacle of power.. It cut his power just like his arm
Future Gohan always looked so hence/bulk like a heavyweight boxer compared to Gohan from the regular timeline.
Future Trunks when he 1st showed up
Good point, but his arm, though. Hmm 🤔
GREAT QAAMAN FUTURE GOHAN HARD TO POWER SCALE VIDEO.
A bit stronger than namek goku but weaker than yadrat goku
One shots(with a ki blast) king cold who is relative in power to mecha Frieza.
@@segaherman_twitch Gohan lost the arm, not Trunks
11:45 Well hold on. Cell had to factory reset back to his larva form to fit in the time machine. So anyone he absorbed prior to time traveling to the present timeline would be mute and not attribute to his power after.
I don't think so, cell blew himself up to smithereens and he regenerated even stronger than before, so why would he lose the power boost he absorbed from the humans by reverting to larva form?
There’s no evidence to suggest that he lost that power by reverting back to his larvae stage
@@eslwgpg1226 wait... could he just not revert back to cell from larve?? without requiring time or absorption??
@@விஷ்ணு_கார்த்திக்That’s different, Cell was already perfect before which means it’s a sure fire guarantee that Cell could re use his Perfect Form, not only that Larva is straight up regression.
@@SonZackSSJ9k Actually, he wasn't. Cell was semi-perfect when he blew up and he lost 17 in the explosion as well.
Is it accurate to say cell kept the power of the future humans? He had to revert to a egg to come to the past and spend 4 years growing. Its more likley he had to regain his power
That's a brilliant point... I honestly never thought of that...
Cell retained the power he got from 18 and was able to return to his perfect form without her inside him because his cells remembered the power boost from when he absorbed her. This is evidence that Cell retains the power of those he absorbs even if he temporarily loses it by reverting back to a weaker form
not only did he not need 18 to regain his perfect form after blowing himself up, but he also has frieza'a DNA in him. it has been shown on screen that frieza is capable of suppressing his power through his 1st, 2nd and 3rd forms. of course this is just an assumption, but i don't think it's crazy to say that cell, theoretically, could do the same, since it's shown on screen that he did not need the androids to regain strength he already had after absorbing them.
The one armed kamehameha vs the Androids is a bit deeper than that. Future Gohan doubted himself and because his father wasn't around, he never truly awoke.
Just like against cell, he had a one arm kamehameha and doubted himself but his father spurned him on to remove all doubt. In the future, he's alone. He's got one arm. But there's no Goku in his head, his succumbs to his own doubt.
This is why the Dokkan Original animation of Future Gohan's active skill is so amazing. They introduce Goku and Piccolo spurring him on from the afterlife and it's enough to awaken him to finish the job.
@@Blackraptor1234 True, even if most of the cast is dead they are not out of the game, it's like Yugioh graveyard. If Uranai Baba is still alive, she can temporarily bring any of them back, and they can still train and communicate and support that way. During the Majin Buu arc the situation gets much worse than the future timeline ever did and it could still be solved.
@@Blackraptor1234 One thing that came to my mind is that Kami has to manually preserve their bodies for the afterlife. So if Piccolo dies early, the rest would die as spirits and be inactionable, probably like Kuririn on Namek. I wonder what Karin is doing throughout all these things. I don't think he's ever threatened by anything until Buu
@@Blackraptor1234 Kami can presumably still affect his own body and Piccolo's but then it's over, and he's the one that died last.
The plot hole here is that their corpses didn't disappear from the battlefield but they were still corporeal in the afterlife. Toriyama genuinely forgot there.
Nah, the hardest character to power scale is Mr. Popo 💯💯💯
Popo Fans: Not really. Popo is obviously solar system, if not outer-versal level.
@@mrrictus ???? popo is at a level that is undefined, its so high there aren't any terms that can describe his power. Outerversal fodder is nothing to Mr. Popo don't disgrace his name
Popo just is, that that he is
Yeah I just always figured that his magic made him seem more powerful than he actually was... nobody really had any resistance to magic
@@fgdfgdfgdfg7699 PoPo is the true Kami of earth. Kami Piccolo and Kami Dende are figureheads.
Huh, all these years I was sure I had Future Gohan figured out, but I forgot about the 3 years after Freeza.
They literally never happen for Goku lol,Future Goku dies way before the 3 years.
I like in Yu Yu Hakusho that they cover this, powers are not treated as numbers or "if you do push-ups really _really_ hard, you go up"
To go up a Class Rank, it's not about strength, but also about a state of mind, how you live and how you view the world.
This is why, the higher you go up the echelon, the less brute the demons start looking, because it's meant to reflect how they get their minds together.
Dragon Ball briefly touches this in other parts of its stories. It is strongly hinted that the reason why nobody ever climbs beyond the rank of Freezer, is because anyone that attempts to? Is found out and pressed under Freezer's thumb, denied the opportunity to climb higher, even going to being body snatched by Ginyu at anyone that goes too far.
Future Gohan can't climb up the ranks because, theoretically, brute forcing the body even with zenkais, gives little rewards now. You need to clear your mind and actually think of other ways than just tiring your body in a brawl.
Again, with the Yu Yu Hakusho example, there's a reason why Genkai is called "Genkai" the translation is "Limit." With Genkai's training, that's meant to be the limit of what that training can give you, to climb to A or S rank, you need a clarity of the world. Sensui achieved this clarity through Sacred Energy, which is only achievable through a state of mind.
Of course, then comes the Three Kings arc, where Yusuke's demon friends climb to S through her training, but that's an example of how Togashi kind of dropped the ball. Though he kind of explains it that it's not just the training, but rather how Yusuke _influenced_ them to get stronger on top of it, just like Raizen did to his friends.
Tbh sensui’s “true” strength was kinda already an asspull.
Its strange because you would think with all the butt woopings he got he would be stronger. I heard a lot of theories why his strength didn't improve much some of them being that he never properly rested to feel the effects of his near death encounters. I forgot who mentioned it was something about energy and how the right state of mind can benefit a warrior. Like the s cells saiyans have, the more good and kindhearted they are the more easily their strength progresses (thats why goku always had the edge against vegeta, and yk its the goku show). So with that being said after experiencing constant defeat after defeat gohan's state of mind wouldn't be all that positive as he has seen nothing but everything he wants to protect being destroyed and being able to do nothing about it other than postpone the inevitable, so with this damage to his psyche him perceiving himself as powerless really turned him into that. That and it was said he took some time off to train but it didn't really amount to much as the andriods were holding back the whole time, I belive they weren't even using 50% of their power. So with his lack of training expertise and no knowledge of a form beyond super saiyan (both vegeta and goku knew that there was a form beyond it after achieving it pure blooded saiyan instinct I guess?) he was only destined for failure. And the last theory which is my favorite, is that Akira Toriyama needed him to lose to start the whole andriod/cell saga which to be honest I believe this to be the most likely case as its said he wrote the story as he went. Which it isn't bad but I do like how dragon ball fans come up with all these theories when the answer can be super simple as "Toriyama forgot" or "its needed to progress the story".
I found the guy who mentioned the stuff about the mind ua-cam.com/users/shortszUrIz9p56fs?si=OhzjPICycBDSHrPd
If I find the stuff about S cells and Vegeta and Goku knowing of a further form I'll link them
He didn’t get stronger because saiyans can’t get zenkai boosts from fighting androids. There’s a lot of evidence from the series that points this out. LaughingStock Media made a video on this and explains it pretty well.
My head canon is that after saiyans become supersaiyans, they either don't get zenkai boosts or it becomes a really small increase like 1% so it is practically non-existence. Otherwise, even at a standard increase of 30%, similar to the won Vegeta got after the Saiyan Saga, there shouldn't be any reason why Future Gohan or Trunks couldn't eventually beat the androids. Especially Future Gohan since it seems like he's been fighting them for years. Again, this is a head canon I hold, not saying that it is right, just that it makes most sense to me given the lack of evidence of any significant zenkai's post Namek/Frieza saga.
@@kava3957 Again, it's probably just a plot hole that was later covered up like the guy below said. They did get Zenkai boosts, but since they were already super saiyans, it didn't amount to much.(This was stated by Toriyama in an interview) And then super changed everything 🤣
@@bkaa18 I'm pretty sure it's as you said at the moment of the Android Cell saga(probably all of DBZ) but super changed it all 🤣
Video suggestion, freiza’s durability. No one discusses how durable he is
What do you SPECIFICALLY want me to discuss about it though?
@@QaamansLandhow he’s not durable enough to take trunks’ sword I guess 💀
@joonyah8904 he still wasnt dead at that point, he was still technically alive. It wasn’t until trunks burnt him after he was sliced
Future Trunks quickly cut him in pieces. Not so durable
@@QaamansLand well, what about Frieza's base durability without being enhanced by ki? He was bisected and unconscious but still survived a planetary explosion without using any ki to bolster his defense. Whereas in DBZ or DBS they will show characters getting injured by inane things because they "let their guard down".
To be fair most power scaling in the DB community comes from analysis or headcanons because if we’re being honest, it’s simply just a writing inconsistency for many of these unanswered questions
Cool piccolo avatar. And this was a really good and relevant video/topic. I enjoyed it.
Yo, it'd be pretty interesting to see a video detailing every moment that a zenkai should have happened. That passing comment should be expanded on
I really like this in-depth video about the Android saga, its my fav topic, and it was hella interesting exploring future Gohans Battle power.
Great video, will watch it again for reference. :D
saw fan art of Future Gohan with the Beast transformation and it was so cool. awesome video!
It's interesting how Trunks became strong enough to defeat Freiza and King Cole so easily. He got some massive gains through that time.
I just love this glad to see qaaman’s videos just so cool 😎
This has been very helpful for my Dragon Ball Custom Saga. Thankyou for this!
The future timeline is always something I wish we got more to see; especially during the time between when Goku returned to stop Frieza and King Cold to the events of May 12th.
Granted. I always feel that the idea of “less is more” is something I always stick by and not explaining everything for the audience is better. However, in this case, because of how broken everything is in the future timeline, we definitely deserve to see something extra add into it
The anime seems to pretty much always scale higher than the manga, and all for the sake of drama.
Example; 100% power Frieza was seen to be able to hold his own far better against SSJ Goku on Namek, while in the manga it was clear that Goku was just toying with him.
Gohan having a final fight against both 17 and 18 was more dramatic than him just getting whooped by 17 alone. So he has to scale way higher for the sake of the fight.
Sup Q always good to see you uploading
I used to watch Qaaman religiously about 8-9 years ago. I had no idea you still make videos!
Looking forward to the future video of how chunks miscalculated the present Android's power 🎉
Calling it now; he's gonna change the thumbnail like 4 or 5 times 😅😂
Nah I'm good this time. I gave my editor a break.
The hardest character to scale in my book is Beerus and Whis. Like how do I know when they are serious. What is the extent of Angels magics like freaking time reversal is so darn broken. In terms of of the past now its South Kai buu my fave not seen for more than 2 episodes like intelligence and fighting prowess. Did Buu become a creational God then over his destruction chaos.
I agree but that's why I titled it "Dragon Ball Z ". This isn't all time.
3:37 what song is that, shoulds like a certain UA-camrs intro
Hey Qaaman do you think Vegeta unlocked ss2 during the seven years of peace before the buu saga? Do you have a video about this topic?
Yes, how don't you know that
I know that. I got into a debate with someone recently who says vegeta didn't, and even after I gave him proof from the manga he still says Vegeta didn't unlock it lol@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GODI know he does. I got into a debate recently with a guy who says he didn't. Even after I gave him proof from the manga lol he says Vegeta never got it. I was like you " how is that even a question?"
@@Xlen-omega he's a troll or moron
I believe Vegeta got SsJ2 on his own, i don't think he'd resort to mind control from Babidi just to do that instead of working hard for it on his own.
i personally believe he was roughly the same level as ssj goku at the beginning of the android saga but just had more knowelage of the way the androids fought allowing him to appear to be more advanced against them..
About the "theoretical Zenkai Boost." I think it was a Laughing Stock Media video? But you wouldn't get a Zenkai Boost from fighting Android 13-20 because as you cannot sense their Ki, the Sayian body cannot feel the Ki to scale up to.
Saiyans cannot sense ki by default. Goku could not until he learned it from Kami, and Vegeta could not until he figured it out after fighting Goku. Saiyans get zenkais without this ability.
I remember watching when I was 9 that was 9 years ago
Huh?
Watching what
That
I subscribed instantly when I saw your avatar
Opinion?
Qaaman stay making bangers , great video.
I recommend, taking saiyan scholar's scaling for the manga, because honestly he made the most consistent power scaling.
Man I wish Gohan after receiving his implied zenkai had both arms when he fought the androids I do think he’d beat either 1 on 1 and they’d have to go really serious to beat him. If he had just waited till Trunks got stronger to the point he could hold his own against him as he stated when going back in the past then they’d beat the androids 2 on 2. But I know Gohan’s death was needed, as it was the catalyst for Trunks growing tremendously in power. First by unlocking super saiyan and later training and getting to a similarly implied power range as Gohan because he had that drive to avenge his master/friend
Ironically, 17 and 18 getting so strong throughout Super's time would have been easier to explain if the future Androids were much stronger as time went on. They were decimating the population, whereas 17 gets to the level of SSJ3 god-ki infused Goku by just ranging an island. It could have still aligned with Gohan not being strong enough despite his high potential, and Trunks could have both A. been stronger in the meeting with Goku, and B. trained after present Cell's defeat.
As much as I hate retcons, even that could have helped out some discussion.
They defeated further future Cell and present cell was destroyed along with gero's lab as he was still an embryo Future Cell gets killed by trunks who already killed the androids earlier
@@Von.gzzz0 What does that have to do with what I said? I'm talking about a potential power rewrite
@@_WiZ420 can you read moron before getting sassy, we don't know how strong present super cell could've been since he got killed off as a embryo but maybe he could've been stronger than a super saiyan 2
Video suggestion. What if future Goku doesn't die. I feel like instant transmission would be a God send. And they basically Time Chamber train earlier.
I feel like Future Goku would do a lot of the same stuff his Main Timeline counterpart would do had he lived to fight the androids, Cell and buu,including instructing everyone to enter the chamber to get stronger.
Depends on the timeline,if it's the anime special timeline Goku will just go to the time chamber for like 3 month's with Piccolo or Vegeta and defeat the androids and after that it just ends since this timeline is just not the same as the canon future timeline making speculations about Moro or Buu insignificant.
If it's the canon Future timeline,Future Goku will train in the time chamber for a longer time period with Piccolo or Vegeta again kill the Androids,stop Buu's ressurection earlier than Trunks and after that he would keep training and pushing the others to get stronger with his presence until Goku Black arrives to this timeline,there are now two possibility's one is Goku kills Goku Black because he is not used to his body yet and he is definetly above the Buu saga tier at this point and he manages to seals Zamasu or Zamasu and Goku Black wins after killing Goku and Bulma.
Hey Q. Where do you get these colored panels from? Ive noticed almost always they incorrectly color SSJ eyes as blue. When theyre more Turqoise/greenish/blue combo. Or lighter green.
Its super consistant incorrect coloring too
I can't say publicly on UA-cam but they are the original full color scans with fan translations for the chapters that never came out in English
@@QaamansLand I think I know which ones you're talking about since it was completed. I guess I wonder why the people are so inconsistent/changed it. Makes me think they're partially color blind or something and didn't realize
@@QaamansLand what I've noticed too is in the original full color release. They were turquoise tinted still. But shuesha...forcibly changed them to blue in the most recent colored release. Like...cmon lmao
Gohan losing an arm was fucking bullshit.
Gohan was disarm 😅😅
The only thing I would say about this is, and I forget where I heard it so unfortunately I cannot provide a source, Zenkai boosts stop once a Saiyan unlocks the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan, as the unlocking of the first stage of that form is in of itself a response to extreme trauma much in the same way the boost is, thus making it serve as the final ultimate Zenkai Boost.
As well as that, going off of the theory that Zenkai Boosts are scaled to the biggest immediate threat sensed by the recovering Saiyan, it's said that Goku received such a staggering boost because he felt Frieza's insanely increasing power while healing in the chamber. Thus it makes sense that even if Gohan could receive a Zenkai Boost, he would not be able to sense any power from the Androids and thus he would not be able to scale as high as he needed to in order to rival them to any real degree.
These are just my thoughts on a part of the matter though, great vid!!
Trunks said Goku got that virus slnot long after her came back to Earth. When Trunks went back to help with the Androids, he was shocked at how late Goku got sick. So with this information, it’s clear that Future Gohan was comparing his power to Goku's when he came back to Earth.
That makes no sense. Goku died or the virus 6 months before the androids showed up
@@QaamansLand Then this must be another of Toriyama's retcons. He really doesn't write time travel plots well. Either that or Goku got sick early but actually died nearly 3 years later. Because Trunks did tell Goku he would get the virus soon, not in nearly 3 years.
So to me here is the manga future gohan
At base he is under post-yardat goku and at super saiyan he is under android saga super saiyan vegeta.
In the anime, future gohan is around android saga vegeta/picckami, so yeah.
In the episode ghost from tomorrow, future trunks is around android saga goku
I think ghost from tomorrow is probably from the original trunks, History of trunks and the manga are around the same but different in some aspects.
Good to see you back Q!
my GOAT puddlehan: damaged by broken glass
2:35 caught me off-guard
I always thought that Gohan got a Zenkai after losing his arm, you can see he was actually working the androids in the rain
I just normally go off of the TV special since it seems to be the most adapted but i could be wrong
Cause the story is limited by the world.
SSJ2 DIDNT EVEN EXIST!
When a Tik Tok kid asks you why Goku didn’t turn SSG against Majin Buu… THE ANSWER IS THAT IT DIDNT EXIST!
Power levels aren’t real. It was a plot device.
I think he's way stronger than fused piccolo since he fought the android tag team on a daily basis and survived. Even after he lost his arm he did pretty well. Remember the scene where 18 and 17 rushed him down at the same time and he managed to deflect every punch with just one arm?
I disagree that he's the hardest to power scale in Dragon Ball Z. There's so much evidence, as you presented in this video, to suggest a range of power between SSJ Vegeta (when he fought 18) to Piccolo (when he fought 17), when factoring in manga AND anime. That's a large gap, but not outrageous.
Who TRULY is hard to power scale is Majin Buu. It's nearly impossible to figure out where he lies on the power scale. He's always playful, so it's hard to gauge just how powerful he actually is when fully serious. His body type is perfect for blunt attacks, but fragile to sharp objects and ki blasts. He also HEAVILY relies on regeneration. He would've been dead multiple times without it. Here's the evidence using manga only:
1) Dabura threw a spear through Majin Buu's chest, because Majin Buu has ZERO awareness. Without regeneration, it's tough to say if he dies from that. Did it go through vital organs? That said, strong DB characters have survived worse when the plot requires it lol, so he likely survives regardless, but his power would've been crippled.
2) Despite that, Buu dispensed of Dabura pretty easily, and Gohan was scared to fight him as a Super Saiyan. This confirms to me that when focused, Buu is stronger than Perfect Cell at least. Gohan wishes he could go Super Saiyan 2, but would SSJ2 be enough? Well....
3) IMajin Buu legit got bodied by Majin Vegeta early on. Without regeneration, he dies to Vegeta's Final Impact attack. Then, he dies AGAIN to Final Explosion. He doesnt make it past Majin Vegeta without regeneration.
4) When Goku fought Majin Buu, he acts like Super Saiyan 2 isnt enough. He's likely factoring in regeneration, but then...
5) After Goku goes Super Saiyan 3, he says something like "I'm not doing any damage to him whatsoever". His body type seems impervious to SSJ3s physical attacks, which is insane and suggest he could legit contend with SSJ3 Goku. But then Goku blasts him through the chest with a Kamehameha. Again, Buu dies without regeneration. But if Buu was focused and trained, could he have avoided that attack?
So, Majin Buu is stronger than Cell for sure. But is he stronger than a Super Saiyan 2? He would've been killed by Vegeta, twice, had it not been for his regeneration. But he's also a seemingly untrained fighter who is playful. If he was serious AND didnt have a fragile body AND was a skilled martial artist trained to utilize his power correctly, how strong could he be? Could he give SSJ3 Goku a run for his money?
*His Power Scale range goes from "Slightly weaker than a Super Saiyan 2" >>>> "Slightly stronger than a Super Saiyan 3", because we dont know how impactful his NON-power related strengths and flaws are. That's a ridiculously enormous range.*
Majin Buu is on SSJ3 level in terms of power, his durability is just inconsistently drawn to show his regeneration ability, how hard he is to kill, comedic purposes, and honestly just bad writing. Kid Buu and Majin Buu are almost equal in terms of power. SSJ3 Goku could beat them but SSJ3 drains a lot of energy while Buu has unlimited stamina and extremely efficient regeneration. Polar opposites. Also, Majin Buu was more than likely holding back against Vegeta until Buu got pissed off. He ended the fight pretty quickly and beat Vegeta without much effort.
My personal headcanon was always that Buu’s power level isn’t all that high, but thanks to his near immortal body he doesn’t need to use any of his ki on defense - which is why so many attacks deal serious damage to him. Between his body and magic Buu doesn’t need to have highest power level to be most dangerous
Based on the literal power scale that had half his power at the Chi sucked from Gohan As Ssj2 he's twice as strong as Ssj 2 gohan.
I agree I’d say future gohan is somewhere in between ssj vegeta when he fought Android 18 and 19 and fused piccolo
Let me rework the whole power scaling of F.gohan
But let me put some Letters in short for words.
G.F.T is for ghost from tomorrow
M is for manga
H.O.T. is for history of trunks
B is for Base
F is for Future
SS is for super saiyan
Let us start, remember that some scalings are just guesses at this point but let me tell ya this is just for fun and may be a better scaling.
In the Manga, F.Gohan, said he couldn't surpass Goku and if we take into account that future goku may have just trained moderately, which means he'll have a power difference, from just arriving at earth to living in earth.
B F.Goku (M) - 9,210,000
SS F.Goku (M) - 460,500,000
And with the androids,
17(M) - 1,004,000,000
18(M) - 950,200,000
Reason why the androids here are much powerful is due to the fact F.17 told F.gohan that he didn't even use half of his power
So let's scale F.Gohan in the Manga.
Considering half of 17 is about 502,000,000 then F.Gohan should be even lower and since he didn't even surpass a goku after staying in earth for a bit before dying by the virus, then
B F.Gohan (M) - 6,250,000 (lower than B F.Goku....)
That means..
SS F.Gohan (M) - 312,500,000
So teen trunks time,
In the manga F.Teen Trunks had super saiyan before gohan died, but the thing is, F.Teen Trunks couldn't even beat B F.Gohan meaning.. he is weaker than B F.Gohan.
So
B F.Teen Trunks (M) - 46,000
He should be at that level Because
SS F.Teen Trunks (M) - 2,300,000
Because he couldn't even beat B F.Gohan at SS.
Time for G.F.T
I won't scale this one because it is just like the manga in power for gohan and trunks they are utterly powerless against the androids but performed better compared to the manga.
So here are the differences for base power, Note : Trunks doesnt have SS here.
B F.Gohan (G.F.T) - 6,250,000 (400,000+)
B F.Teen Trunks (G.F.T) - 46,000 (920,000+)
The reason why trunks here is even more powerful is just due to being able to survive an attack by 18 and also cut a bit of her hair. (Yes I'm seriously gonna count that)
The androids here just have no increases nor decreases in power.
H.O.T.
*"EVEN IF YOU MANAGE TO KILL THIS BODY SOMEONE WILL SURF ABOVE ME AND DESTROY YOU NOT ONE LIFE WILL BE ACCOUNTED FOR NOT ONE"*
*"Gohan why did you have to leave me.. Gohan? GOHAN GOHHAAAN!!!!!"*
B F.Teen Trunks faired better against B F.Gohan, Teen Trunks didn't have super saiyan at this point (yet.)
B F.Teen Trunks (H.O.T.)- 2,300,000
B F.Gohan (H.O.T.) - 25,000,000
The reason gohan is this high is because the anime special (H.O.T.) buffed F.Gohan Up more to handle at least 1 android (I'm just trying to make sense ok?),
SS F.Gohan (H.O.T.) - 1,250,000,000
The sole reason why gohan is this high is because of the fact F.Gohan could actually handle one android but since they actually jump him, he just gets beaten down
18 (H.O.T.) - 950,200,000
17 (H.O.T.) - 1,004,000,000
I'm keeping the androids here the same since the scaling for the manga works for the H.O.T. special as well.
Enough yapping time for the final light of scaling.
SS F.Teen Trunks (H.O.T.) - 115,000,000
Ik some of you are somewhat weirded out by me putting teen instead of kid for F.trunks it's because F.trunks is actually 14 in the future timeline at least was 14 when F.Gohan was alive
So for adult trunks just add 3,000,000 to his base and then multiply it to 50 for SuperSaiyan
So basically,
B F.Adult Trunks - 5,300,000
If we do SS
Then SS F.Adult Trunks - 265,000,000
Perfectly enough for him to oneshot king cold and defeat frieza easily and not beat goku
So main timeline goku when first arriving at earth would be at
B Goku - 7,150,000
SS Goku - 357,500,000
So even if F.Gohan meant this goku who just arrived then in the manga he never surpassed goku.
Is this power scaling accurate qaaman cuz I think it's good enough cuz I think it's good enough to make sense.
Future Z fighters -
Considering most didn't train much then this would be somewhat more accurate. (Only vegeta and piccolo would've trained moderately)
F.Chaozu - 8,200
F.Tien - 47,500
F.Yamcha - 29,000
F.Krillin - 75,250
F.Kid Gohan - 19,000 (due to overstudying)
F.Piccolo - 2,610,480 (if a fusion with Kami would've happened then piccolo's power would've been above at least around imperfect cell)
B F.Vegeta - 4,100,000
SS F.Vegeta - 205,000,000
So the reason why vegeta didn't have lots of increases is because of goku's death, because goku made vegeta have the reason to train so that's why F.vegeta is weaker.
Imperfect cell - 3,200,000,700
B F.Adult Trunks - ???
SS F.Adult Trunks - ???
I pretty much will not try to guess a F.trunks that left the time chamber
But let us talk about infected goku, let us say the virus is a ÷25 of the goku's base form
So F.goku at base with the heart virus infected would have a power level of 368,400 (F.goku would be at 9,210,000 so doing ÷25 as the heart virus kicking in, then you would know goku would absolutely have been 100% murdered by final form frieza on namek if goku was infected at the time, this is my guess for decreasing goku in power and eventually having him dead which is sad but dragon ball is dragon ball)
Present Z fighters (android saga) -
After our boy trunks warned them, they trained now our heroes will bust at the androids
Chaozu - 20,000
Tien - 140,000
Yamcha - 95,000
Krillin - 300,000
Kid gohan - 2,450,000
B Vegeta - 23,000,000
B Goku (Healthy) - 19,500,900
SS Goku (Healthy) - 975,045,000
B Goku (Virus) - 780,036
SS Goku (Virus) - 39,001,800
Android 19 - 538,900,000
Dr.Gero - 730,000,000
SS Vegeta - 1,150,000,000
B F.Trunks - 16,840,000
SS F.Trunks - 842,000,000
Piccolo - 812,300,200
Reason why trunks is this high because he said that he could put up a good fight against his androids of his time, so the increase Power makes sense when you take what he said into consideration
17 - 2,850,000,000
18 - 2,780,200,000
The reason why they are stronger is because of the Z fighter just becoming stronger.
16 - 4,300,000,000
Picckami - 3,200,000,000
Let's talk about moves, in the start of DBZ the scouter showed us the moves increasing someone's power So let's say the kamehameha for example, it may be given goku the multiplier of 2.2x
So let's say this
Kamehameha - 2.2x
Special beam cannon - 3x
Destructo-Disc - 2.9x
Galick gun - 2x
Final flash - 4.4x
Kikooho (idk the move that tien used) - 10,000x.
For some forms that don't have multipliers at all like grade 3 and 2
I'm gonna come up with these multipliers.
SS grade 1 - 50x
SS Grade 2 - 75x
SS Grade 3 - 90x (muscle mass = decreased speed)
SS Grade 4 - 50x (no drain)
SS2 - 100x
Let's get back into it, this has just became a guessing game of domination multipliers.
The training that F.trunks and vegeta did in the time chamber is focused on getting stronger, they only focused on increasing their power and only power.
So this makes F.trunks and vegeta only have a 3x multiplier for them but F.trunks will increase more
While for gohan and goku they gained up to 3x increase and gohan will have 40x (he is like 2,450,000)
Piccolo trained alone (he'll gain a 2x)
I will show give base power increase for everyone
B "Teen" Gohan - 98,000,000
B Goku - 97,504,900
B vegeta - 57,500,000
B F.Trunks - 56,500,000
Piccoami - 6,400,000,000
You do the math for the forms man I'm gonna die..
Anyway for imperfect cell, his power level is gonna be 2,900,000,000 just to be able to defeat 17 or 18 individually.
So at this point, let's talk about cell's forms, from 2,900,000,000 at first.
Let's set up multipliers for him just so I'll finally stop freakin typing
Also yeah cell bullied a F.trunks.
Semi-perfect basically is a 1.5x
Perfect form is a 2x
Are we done?
Also yes super perfect is a thing but it's basically a massive zenkai 😑
At this point this became a future timeline-cell Saga power scaling.. well idk anymore lol
(hope qaaman sees this)
Read it all, my only 4 issues:
1. B. Teen Trunks at 115 mil seems way too high considering the fact that he is almost as strong as Frieza. As a SSJ being around 60-70 mill seems more accurate.
2. Also, by your logic, Future Gohan is the strongest character in the world? You would also have to consider he lost an arm which means even what you stated is theoretically less than what he would be capable of without a handicap.
3. The gap between 17-18 seems way too large. 17 is stronger but the gap needs to be smaller.
4. You need to scale future Gohan to other Ssj's.
SSJ Future Vegeta / Present SSJ Vegeta
Piccolo before fusion and after fusion
Imperfect Cell
Goku SSJ (healthy) vs Future Goku (infected)
Great job so far. I look forward to your edits.
@@QaamansLand I see but I actually made teen trunks just get 50x multiplier on SSJ
@@QaamansLand my logic is yes gohan is the strongest but he was only about 200,000,000 more stronger than 17
@@QaamansLand my logic is yes gohan is the strongest but he was only about 200,000,000 more stronger than 17
@@QaamansLand I think I'll add a future Z fighters list. But yeah I'll start doing it now.
Easily Dbz broly cause he’s either cell level or beyond the whole buu saga using takao koyama’s statements
The Broly wank is crazy lmao. Him beating cell is possible tho I lean towards Cell
DBZ broly is the one statement king and one is most likely a low ball and the other is insane wank. Pretty on brand for DBZ Broly
Harder to scale if you also include the second movie where it’s not clear how strong Gohan is. No idea if he “kept training” or if he’s even in ssj2. If both are true then in second coming he’s probably around kid Buu, if not then he’s probably around if not a bit stronger then Debura. (Also a bunch of other little things to consider.)
I’d say DBZ Broly is slightly weaker or equal to SSJ3 Goku in Second Coming. It was stated that Gohan kept training meaning LSSJ Broly ate a straight punch to the face from SSJ2 Gohan without flinching.
I know he doesn't achieve it, but I always liked to think Gohan was right there at Super Saiyan 2, he just never fully reached it because he was so weak by that point with losing his arm and stuff. And to me I always felt like he was just tired and didn't have that fire in him as much as he did when he fought Cell. Like his Spirit was always near empty when he died.
Julia Child’s Beef Bourguignon recipe
Ingredients:
2-½ pounds beef chuck shoulder, cut into 1” cubes
1 teaspoon kosher salt
¼ teaspoon freshly cracked black pepper
6 ounces bacon, cut into 1" squares (1-½ c)
1 tablespoon vegetable oil
1-½ cups carrots, cut into 1" pieces
1-½ cups yellow onions or shallots, roughly chopped
2 cups dry red wine like Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot
2 tablespoons flour
2 cups beef stock or bouillon
2 tablespoons tomato paste
1 teaspoon dried thyme or a couple fresh sprigs
2 bay leaves (remove before serving)
10 pearl onions (optional, but nice addition)
Mushrooms
10 ounces cremini (button) mushrooms, quartered or halved, depending on size
2 tablespoons butter (or more as necessary)
2 tablespoons garlic, minced
Olive oil as needed
Salt and pepper to taste
Additional Ingredients
4 tablespoons flat leaf Italian parsley, chopped
1 pound egg noodles
instructions:
Pat the beef dry and cut into 1” cubes. Season with 1 teaspoon kosher salt and ¼ teaspoon freshly cracked black pepper, and set aside.
Heat 1 tablespoon vegetable oil over medium heat.
Add the bacon (it should sizzle). Cook for about 5 minutes, stirring occasionally. Remove with a slotted spoon and set aside.
Add beef cubes (make sure they sizzle when touching the oil) and brown on all sides, about 5 minutes. Make sure not to overcrowd the pan. Remove with a slotted spoon and set aside.
Add carrots and onion (or shallots) and stir for about 3 minutes. Season with ½ teaspoon kosher salt and ¼ teaspoon freshly cracked black pepper.
Add the cooked bacon and browned beef cubes, add 2 tablespoons flour, give it a really good stir, and cook for 2 minutes.
Add 2 cups red wine, 2 cups beef stock, 2 tablespoons tomato paste, thyme, bay leaves, and pearl onions. Bring to a boil. Stir and reduce to a simmer. Now, it’s time to put the lid on.
Stir every 15 minutes or so to make sure you’ve got a good simmer going and nothing sticks to the bottom of the pan.
After about 1-½ hours, it should be ready, or close to it. Now is a good time to taste. Don’t sweat it if it still seems a little strong on the wine taste. It’ll mellow. But make sure it doesn’t need any more kosher salt.
Now that the beef bourguignon is almost ready, we’re going to sauté the mushrooms. In a large frying pan over medium heat, melt 2 tablespoons butter until it slightly bubbles and foams.
Add minced garlic for just 30 seconds (you want them fragrant but not burned) and add the mushrooms.
Stir, add a little olive oil (or more butter) if you think the mushrooms are too dry. Season with a pinch of kosher salt and freshly cracked black pepper. Cook for about 5 minutes.
Add the sautéed mushroom-garlic-butter mixture to the Dutch oven and give it one more last stir.
Serve over your favorite side dish. In my case, that’s buttered extra-wide egg noodles.
Sprinkle with chopped parsley and pour everyone a nice glass of red wine.
🥄 Taste, taste, taste
9:14 Do you have a video about what if every Zenkai boost counted? it's a great idea
Every single one? I should I do a whole series on it
@@QaamansLand I think the course of the story will change completely. When I was a kid I used to get upset when the Zenkai boost didn't count
I think that the theoretical zenkai was mute because he lost an arm meaning the loss of strenght from the arm and the strength boost of the zenkai canceled each other out
Toei's version of Future Gohan is obviously on par if not even stronger than Kamiccolo. Dude took two androids head on and was still holding his own pretty well (yes I know the future androids are probably weaker but it doesn't matter) until they ganged up on him synching their moves which ultimatly led Gohan to his inevitable death. Kamiccolo and 17 were even and no one could outlast each other with Piccolo having more power to output while 17 having infinite stamina (Gohan quickly gained the upper hand against 17 and 18 had to interviene because otherwise Gohan would've smoked 17)
Future Gohan vs Kamiccolo is something that came across my mind years ago and I've always thought Gohan was the one who was going to be on top seeing how well he performed against both androids at the same time despite having one arm 🎉
Manga Gohan is probably as strong as his dad before he died
Are you counting a theoretical Zenkai Boost Future Gohan got after?
@@QaamansLand Obviously yes, post Zenkai.
if Kamiccolo shot that light grenade against 17 instead of Cell he would've gotten blown up that's for sure😂, no more barrier to save the day hehehe
1:29 Actually there is an official daizenshuu timeline chart and the Future Version of Goku dies roughly 1 year after he kills Mecha Frieza,so he shouldn’t have been that much if at all stronger than Yardrat Goku before he died.
No he doesn't. Using the official series it's a 3 year skip and Goku dies 6 months before so it's almost 3 years.
The present Goku was health until the androids showed up so it was delayed and he never needed to take the medicine until the full 3 years passed.
@@QaamansLand He does,he literally dies in the same year he kills Mecha Frieza i can show you the official daizenshuu timeline chart,if you got discord or whatever i can gladly show you it.
Whereas Present Goku is meant to die 3 years after Mecha,this means manga Future Gohan is at most as strong as Yardrat Goku and thats being generous.
Gohan is the man
Qaaman get a new mic man. Love ya
King Cold?
Huh?
@@QaamansLandI think they want King cold power scaled
KC is very open ended but I think Goku defeating him and frieza alone in the future timeline is a good thing to keep in mind.
That said, like many other villains in the saga, future KC may be far weaker than the prime timeline counterpart too
@@jiggycalzone8585not really goku probably killed KC before he could even show a fraction of his power just like trunks did
I've always wondered how Sensing ki feels like whats the sensation they get
I also think whatever sensation they get, the energy felt creates the image of said person
I always imagine in my mind the Cell games and Buu Saga power levels were in their billions
I always placed Future Gohan to be somewhere between Namek Saga Goku and Yardrat Goku like right in the middle
Gohan is so powerful that you don't know how powerful he is.
Watch and comment on my Gohan is so strong video
@@QaamansLand I was referencing that, but sure, I'll post it there.
Oh the time sink it would to go through & check every single theoretical zenkai boost
anybody else every wonder why trunks didn't try to save gohan when we traveled back to the future?
You touched on something I've had on my thoughts for years about Theoretical Zenkai boost.
During the Anime Filler portion of Z between Frieza and the Androids while Goku was in Otherworld: What effect would a Theoretical Zenkai Boost have on a Saiyan who got to keep his body while in Otherworld? If Goku is technically a spirit, and he went through so many intense battles where a fatal incursion was not possible due to already being a spirit, does that ability turn off?
Assume it either turns off or doesn't, when brought back to life by the Dragon Balls, its natural to guess that the Zenkai Boost would have increased his power since the last time he was a Living Mortal. We know from Vegeta's Zenkai Boost that one does not need to keep there body upon entering Otherworld to recieve this powerup... So in the case of Goku who would have gotten much stronger due to his battles in Otherworld, how does the Theoretical Zenkai boost effect Anime Goku's power? Would it account for why Goku was so confident in the Buu Saga? Honestly I felt Goku was near egotistical but had to have so much power at his disposal due to being a Zenkai Boosted Spirit.
Also gohan definetly should be stronger than future vegeta just becouse FV had no real reason to train due to goku being death
Remember Goku died 6 months before the androids so he probably trained in those 3 years.
Without seeing trunks vegeta doesn't know there can be more than one super saiyan he was never a training type before Goku so he might not try without the warning of the androids killing his less trained self. @@QaamansLand
@@psychotropicfan
No bruh. As soon as Vegeta THOUGHT Goku was a Super Saiyan, he started chasing the power himself. Future Vegeta seeing Goku defeat not only Frieza on Earth but also King Cold would definitely push Vegeta. He didn’t even give a damn about the Androids lol
If anything, Vegeta’s power almost scales 1:1 between the Present and Future timelines IMO. I don’t hear about the Future Androids going 1v1 against Future Vegeta.
Future Gohan stated he was aiming for Goku’s power when he returned to Earth and Vegeta was far more powerful than that after getting Super Saiyan. When Vegeta fights 19, Piccolo thinks Vegeta is stronger than Goku with or without the virus and that’s after they trained for 3 more years.
You forgot one thing - Future Gohan was broken psychologically due to the future timeline's situation. He explicitly thinks Trunks would be the one to destroy 17 and 18 - Gohan totally gave up on himself. Does that affect his fighting ability and ability to draw out power? Hmm, maybe?
Would have been dope to see Gohan and trunk fuse and beat the androids before Gohan lost his arm!
The scouter could be found in the
Create a superstar of WWE games as well.
Also DBZ hair.
2:34 Yo your avatar looks drippy as hell.
Legacy of Goku 2 music in the background?
Depression reaction:"Unfortunately this warrior suffered for 13 years because he lost everything..."
Being wrong about key points was apart of who Future Trunks was. It was also used to showcase how inexperienced he was.
I mean Toriyama originally stated that Super Perfect Cell had a PL of 1.2 Billion at the end of the Android Arc just to establish how the heros had grown in comparison.
Another banger ! ❤
I wonder if the Idea that Hybrid Saiyans have more potential is simply developed off of how insane Gohan's potential has been in the Dragon Ball series and that maybe other hybrid saiyans powers are just "unique at best"?!? 🤔
Yeah, the sad thing is, we know that losing an arm costs someone a ton of their ki power, so if future Gohan hadn't lost his arm, there's a chance he would've survived and even been able to eventually surpass the androids. It doesn't make sense they'd let him live so many times and then just kill him. He was their entertainment. But they probably recognized how much stronger he was getting and that he'd be trouble alongside Trunks not too long from when they killed him, even with him down to 1 arm
In the DBZ Bardock the Father of Goku Movie Comic, there is a little extra story about Trunks and Gohan.
In it, Gohan conceded Vegeta being stronger than him.
This was neat man, but im not sold. Because cell had to revert to his larva state, he was likely weaker initially. He was strong enough before traveling to the past to beat Trunks.
Trunks not only compares himself to Gohan, before fighting androids, but also says Yardrat Goku is better than he had heard. He also says goku gives him hope, and this after he just said the androids were the the biggest baddys around.
I do agree Trunks likely didnt know the full extent of the future androids, but being able to hold his own vs getting 2 shot by present 18, makes me think his comment about present androids being stronger than future holds up.
I also think trunks did worse against androids than gohan because of experience. Grade 1 was still an issue for stamina. Gohan likely managed this better.
I feel like a teenager age watching your new videos sorry if I make you feel old G💀
I was a teenager when I started lol
@@QaamansLand really fr 💀
@@QaamansLand I was around when mortal kombat had the wiz khalifa trailer and when you had the trunks’s time travel theory video
@@shadenonthekeys7936 you mean Mortal Kombat X from 2015
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD yea that one
You could go back and forth on Gohan's performance but it Trunks being able to put up a decent fight would probably mean he knew he wasn't being toyed with that much. If he knew they were messing around it would be mentioned. Trunks is kinda dumb compared to the other fighters, but I think he'd notice if they were just messing around and laughing at him. And on the "narrative" side Trunks is said to be superior to Gohan in the anime too, like, a lot. He does worse though.
As for Vegeta, it kinda depends which version we're looking at. Most of them though have it as 18 holding back but Vegeta being relative until his stamina drained and then he gets beat up. Some sources even say he was equal to her.
My estimates prior to watching the video:
We know Goku mostly did spiritual training on Yardrat, so his PL couldn’t be that different from when he fought Frieza (minus an unquantifiable Zenkai). We also know from the timeskip from the 23rd Budokai to Raditz, that Goku doesn’t train THAT MUCH in peaceful times IF he thinks he’s the strongest around. Manga Future Gohan said he wasn’t much stronger than Yardrat Goku so there you go.
Anime Gohan is at least relative to 17 & 18 individually since he held his own against them while they went all out. He even overpowered the two of them in a beam clash. So he’d have to be near Piccolo’s level after he absorbed Kami
Respond to this comment after watching. Interested to see where your thoughts went after .
@@QaamansLandI definitely didn’t take the filler scene and Trunks’ solo fight with the androids into account lol. I’m glad we had a somewhat similar train of thought.
Personally imo in the manga it’s: Trunks < Yardrat Goku < Future Gohan = Goku at the time of his death
Android 18? Edit the anime section of your comment with her.
@@QaamansLand gotchu
I think when he says he’ll never be as strong as his dad I think it’s a similar sentiment as when Gohan just assumed goku was still stronger than him when they both left the room of spirit and time.
He looks very highly of his dad so could never see himself surpassing goku so in reality future Gohan is probably a little stronger or equally powerful as goku was before he passed.
In the words of TFS Tien “fuck power levels” Anime Future Gohan was done well and better than the manga and was depicted as this absolute badass and no one cares about his power level lol 😂
The androids were probably holding back against Future Trunks too just like future Gohan. They wouldnt want to lose their last sourcr of entertainment. Trunks wouldnt know that they held back so would assume he is holding his own just like Future Gohan
You basically explained my next video. You saw where I was going with it huh?
@@QaamansLandcontext truly is key
I hate how the video games censor future Gohan losing his arm. Kids these days have seen way worse the internet exists bro cmon
I think it’s just gameplay shenanigans
Gohan was a Super Saiyan for a very long time thinking about it. After Piccolo and Krillin died the rage from it caused him to turn Ssj. Meaning he was around the same age as the alternate timeline when he transformed as well. It's a bit strange he didn't start to adapt and even slowly master SsJ just by having the form for so many years. Even with his inexperience in training and fighting after so many years of fighting the Androids and training by himself he should of been stronger. He was 23 and he was 10 when the Androids killed everyone. Not to mention every time Gohan fought the Androids he got a Zenki boost from his beating. I'm guessing he was so weak because his mindset weakened his chi like when he had the kame ha battle with Cell. His doubts and sadness cut his power in half so I'm guessing with everyone dead and Gohan failing he was depressed and crippled his power. Farther evidence of this is when Trunks came with him to fight the Androids stated Gohan was more dangerous then usual and fired up. I think Trunks was helping his emotional state so his chi started to climb
The hardest character to care about his power scale* would be more accurate
No
Off topic: your Piccolo-clothed persona looks good, but on certain frames the shoulder parts look wrong. The cape should go above the shoulders, wrapping around them. It looks wrong when the cape only shows behind the arms, like some kind of curtain in the background.
Timestamp?
@@QaamansLand At 2:33, for example. The right arm (on our left) is fine, but the left arm (on our right) looks wrong (Piccolo's shoulder is never exposed like that).
At 4:23, both shoulders are also wrongly exposed, imo. But at 6:09, both arms look fine (shoulders properly covered, with the cape wrapping around them).
Ohh, it's because the artist wanted to show different angles for variety. I understand what you mean now
@@QaamansLand I see. I don't think it's the angle, as the cape should wrap around the arms, so the shoulders should be covered no matter the angle. As far as I know, Toriyama has never drawn these clothes this way. Anyway, in the end it's a small thing, so feel free to disregard it. Still nice art.
Your attention to detail is insane. I commend you for that.