PM30 Upgrades: Chapter 7 - Spindle Bearings And Teardown
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
- Taking the machine apart finally and showing off the progress!!
Bearing info (purchased from Quality Bearings Online)
Lower Spindle Assembly:
1x - 7007A5TRSULP3 - NSK Precision Angular Contact -
35x62x14mm
1x 7006CTRSUMP3 - NSK Precision Angular Contact -
30x55x13mm
4x 1mm Spacers for 7006CTRSUMP3 Bearings - (P/N: HSHN-45-55-1-A2) from www.accu.co.uk
Upper Spindle Assembly:
2x - Bearing 61910-2RZ/P5 made by SKF
1x - Bearing 6207-2RZ/P5 made by SKF
Glad you mentioned Bt30. I have not seen anyone on UA-cam do that conversion on a PM. Looking forward to that video. Nice job I enjoy watching what your doing.
Thank you! Definitely more to come, hopefully before too long I'll have the next video out
@@mpmachining7227 Which spindle are you looking at? Got a link?
@@ADBBuild unfortunately no. I found it second hand from someone on instagram and I'm not even 100% sure it's going to fit. Trying to get him to send me some measurements so I can check it but I may have to keep looking if this one doesn't work. I think the R8 with TTS honestly is plenty with this mill. I will stand by my statement that I have now built a machine where the limiting factor is the rigidity and strength of the column and not the power of the motor or grip strength of the tools. The only big reason I would like to go BT30 is because I am planning to eventually put an ATC on here and the security of a pull stud would be 1000x better than relying on the belleville washers of a power drawbar on the TTS system
This vendor on Amazon has some dimensions www.amazon.com/spindle-Spindle-Milling-Electric-machining/dp/B087N6XL94/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=HLTNC&qid=1603936900&sr=8-13
images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41IuFRGoLWL._AC_.jpg
The spindle bearing info and part numbers here are really helpful - thanks!! I've got a CNC converted PM-30MV going with the Arizona kit, backlash under 2 mils...gotten quite a bit done with stock motor and TTS holders, but it's coming time to get the RPMs up so I think I'll be doing this exact procedure.
You definitely won't be disappointed if you do. I run mine at 10k rpm for hours and have no issue with heat in the head. I do make sure to always run a warmup cycle now though so I'm not running up to 10k on cold bearings
Nice as always. Finally got my PM-30 last week. I might as well order the angular contact bearings now as I’ll do this eventually I think a 3hp motor will do when I swap but I need to get this CNC conversion done first!
The new Bearings are a great upgrade even just with the stock motor. Don't forget the spacer shims for the top bearing in the lower assembly (added the part number to the video description). 3HP is more than enough for this machine honestly. The 5HP I did was way overkill
@@mpmachining7227 Parts ordered. Thanks for the list. Finally got my issues worked out though still going to replace my conversion kit. I dropped my mill off the stand while flipping for the Y axis install. Heavy Metal CNC kit is junk. Power is fine with stock motor but really need more spindle speed for aluminum as I'd like to run carbide.
@@cduemig1 yea I would have to say out of all of my upgrades, the 10k spindle is by far the best thing I did for the machine followed extremely closely by the servo motors second. Ouch! A drop must have been terrifying! Everything ok?
@@mpmachining7227 Other than being mighty pissed about it yes. I had the head turned and didn’t take into account the center of mass changed. It rolled off to the side and once it started going I stepped back and let it go. It broke the safety shield, and damaged the casting on the head for the quill fine adjustment. Fortunately that’s about it. Since I don’t need either it hasn’t affected anything. It was comical milling the first time on CNC. I stood in a corner with my pendant, thumb on the E-Stop switch. Only crashed twice destroying two carbide end mills until I figured out the coordinate system correctly (Running Centroid Acorn). I’m going to get the ProCut CNC kit to replace mine. I’ve had an absurd amount of issues with the design of Heavy Metal kit. I wanted to do the Arizona CNC kit but he says he doesn’t have the ball screws. Next up is the Priest power drawbar kit and ordering more TTS tooling.
I would have been scared as hell if I saw that thing start going over. That's good to know about the heavy metal kit. I get asked for recommendations a lot, I'll definitely be leaving that one off the list.
Glad you're finally running a cnc program though! Broken endmills are just the toll we all pay to get the hang of it. I have broken many and I'm sure I will break many more! I am still really interested in the priest PDB. Unfortunately it just doesn't look like it will fit because of my motor.
great build
How did we know you were going to give us a ball nut repacking video! :D Looking good so far! I'm almost ready to start cutting with my mill. Just a couple of last snags to sort out.
Haha sometimes repacking the ballnuts becomes a necessity. Figured someone out there would benefit from adding that in there. I'm glad your mill is coming along!
Thanks for the video as always. I have learned so much from your mill upgrade series. It was great seeing the spindle removal and bearing replacement. I don't remember how you ended up with a 5HP motor instead of the 3HP. If I do the upgrade I will stick with the 3HP. I am mostly interested in seeing what you can do cutting steel because that really stress tests the machine. Aluminum should be a cake walk if it can speed through steel.
I know I will never swap away from the R8 spindle with TTS tooling. I have too much invested in tool holders already. Now that Fusion won't support ATC with the personal use license I won't be going that route either.
Thanks for watching! Epoxy granite video should be out soon then I plan on getting into some cutting video. This thing really has done some impressive things in steel (the last 2 scenes in this video are steel being cut in real time) I'm still barely pushing it until I get the timing belt in but it's doing great.
I went 5HP because I like to overdo things lol. 3hp would be more than enough for most people. Honestly I can't even use the whole 5 HP because the machine isn't rigid enough to take a 5HP cut. It allows me to get a lot of power even up at 10k RPM while still giving me a ton of torque at low speeds when I'm face milling tool steel which I do often
Don't worry about video editing. You have a captive audience....
I appreciate that. Sometimes I try to compare my videos to people who. . . Know what they are doing haha and it definitely makes me self conscious of how crappy my videos are. But I have a ton of content filmed from the last couple months I took off from posting that I will hopefully compile into a full update video then get back to more regular posts
@@mpmachining7227 Its all about content. You are doing things that I probably wouldn't start without having seen you do it first. This is exactly what UA-cam is for...folks to share their expertise. Yea, hobby machinists are a small specialized group (didn't mean to lump you into what I consider myself though), but its folks like you sharing what they know that makes this hobby so cool.
@@davelewis3963 I really appreciate hearing that. You are motivating me to get some more videos out
Hi! Would it be possible to get the dimensions or a print of your head spacer between the column and the head? I would like to do something similar on my PM-30 and it looks like yours worked well. Thanks!
It worked great especially with cutting the casting to give me more Y travel (I'm at 10" of Y now). Send me an email at joe@mpmachiningusa.com and I can send you over the full fusion file of the spacer if you'd like
Would you happen to have the original motor laying around you could measure the mounting plate of. I have a chance to pick up a used PM-30 with a fried motor for cheap that I'm thinking of doing a CNC conversion and motor upgrade on. I've been looking at some 3-4hp BLDC's with 140mm square frames but I want to leave room for a power drawbar so something close to stock size would be ideal.
I'll have to dig it up to find the bolt hole pattern. Unfortunately the original motor is very small compared to any aftermarket motor you would likely install on the machine
@@mpmachining7227 Yeah, my biggest concern is definitely going too large. Most of the 1500W BLDC's I've seen are a 110mm frame so I'm hoping the stock PM-30 motor is close to that. Even if I only go to a 3HP motor with a 130mm frame that will allow me to overdrive the spindle a bit without a significant power loss and still be able to squeeze in the drawbar setup. Worst case scenario is I maybe have to offset the motor to one side.
I rewatched this video because something went wrong with my spindle when I had a tool holder pull out while machining a 1" doc feature on a steel rod. Now I get a lot of vibration when machining anything. This video was very helpful to see what I was getting into removing the spindle. I was wondering if you ever went with the BT30 replacement you mentioned?
I haven't gone to BT30 and I haven't had any issues with tool pullout with the TTS system either. How much are you tightening the drawbar?
@@mpmachining7227 I'm using a stack of 4 pairs of Tormach belleville washers preloaded to one turn of the drawbar. I haven't had any issue with tool pullout until now. I was doing a 2D adaptive @ 15% load using a 1/4" 4 flute Lakeshore endmill. It was cutting fine before the holder pulled out. Since then any cuts, even spot drilling have made made a terrible racket.
@@3dmakerzone75 ahhh ok. I forgot that you were using a power drawbar. Two thoughts. First thing I would do to figure out where the problem is originating from would be to remove the washer stack and go back to using the stock drawbar. Tighten it fairly good and run a toolpath. If the noise goes away then you know your problem is in the washers. If not, either the spindle bearings (very unlikely) or something else loose on the head that's causing the noise.
If you diagnose it down to the washer stack, my guess is you just aren't running them with enough preload. You may either need another set of washers if your cylinder can handle compressing one more or you just need to add some more manual preload to them. The tool should barely drop out when the drawbar is compressed. Usually pullout is just a product of the preload backing off or washers settling in
@@3dmakerzone75 also, I forgot to mention that you want to make sure your 3/4" TTS collet has some antisieze on the outside of it where it meets the taper of the spindle. The more friction there is with the taper engaging, the less of the drawbar force is going into clamping power in the TTS tool. You just don't want any antisieze on the inside 3/4" bore of the collet. I typically apply it along the whole taper of the tool as well as the top diameter where it is ground
@@mpmachining7227 Thanks, running it with the original drawbar is a good idea.
Thanks for this video. I am currently struggling trying to get the column off of my pm-30mv.
"As far as I understand it, the air spring is completely contained in the column. Are you sure it's anchored at the base? I haven't heard of anyone having to do this.
"
Precision Matthews Machinery Co. Technical - Mike
So youre wrong-o Mike
Haha yes that's definitely not true. What I did realized after pulling the entire column off the top of the base is that the air strut is threaded into the swivel mount in the casting. So rather than man handling it and pulling the column up and over the spring, I totally could have just reached inside the column and unthreaded the entire strut from the swivel it's mounted to at the base. But that would require you to take the whole head off and unbolt those 2 socket head cap screws that hold the air strut to the z axis shuttle. There is no way to just unbolt the 4 bolts at the base of the column and lift it right off, that's for sure
Love all your videos!
Q about the head spacer, did you make it from aluminum or steel?
If aluminum does it still work or will it be an issue?
I´m in the middle of a CNC conversion right now.
Kind regards/Stefan
Stefan, I made the head spaced out of aluminum and it has been working great! I would highly recommend it
Sounds great, much easier to machine, I'm also going to do the spindle upgrade however I have a ISO30 spindle so I will tear it down to se if your bearing recepi will wor or if I have to make my own cooking ;) Thank youy for answering so promt! @@mpmachining7227
How have your bearings held up? I bought a converted pm-30mv with the same bearings and the lower bearing in the lower spindle assembly was shot. I'm not sure if the guy that built it crashed it hard, installed it incorrectly, or if the bearing just wore out.
My mill as a whole has been flawless for the past year since the upgrade. It has probably spent about 3 hours a week actually running at 10k rpm for the entire year since I have installed them. (and probably another 25hours a week spindle running between 5k and the full 10k). I am far from an expert at installing spindle bearings and I haven't had any problems.
I would guess it had to do with a hard crash, but even that is doubtful in my opinion. I am not sure what sort of stepper motors or servos he has on the axis but a machine this small just doesn't have all that much force behind it. Even a full rapid crash in the Z without the spindle running (probably the worst case for brinneling the spindle bearings) and they would probably run just fine for a long time after that.
As some things to note, every single time I start my mill, I run a table and spindle warmup routine that I wrote and in the last year I have checked the preload of the bottom bearings once this week and it had slightly backed off and needed to be retightened.
@@mpmachining7227 thanks for the update. I ordered a replacement, I just wanted to see what kind of luck you've had with yours. Thanks for the content.
@@mpmachining7227 I have another question. I can't remember if it was this video, or another where I think you mention you found a BT-30 taper that would work on this machine. Any chance you can provide more information on that? Thanks.
@@braddixon5825 unfortunately that didn't end up working out. It turned out to not be a direct replacement and I didn't find it worth the hassle to try and retrofit it to fit this machine. Using the R8 spindle with the Tormach TTS has proven to be plenty rigid and fast with this size machine. That's not to say that BT30 still wouldn't be be better but even with my 5HP motor, I run out of column rigidity far before I hit a limit on my spindle motor or taper strength
How is this holding up 2 years later? I’m in the middle of a pm30 conversion and want the upgraded spindle. If you are available perhaps you could provide some online consulting(I’d pay of course)
The machine has been incredibly reliable and solid. It gets used probably 20 hours a week and I have zero complaints at all. Reach out on our email if you have questions along the way and we would be happy to lend a hand (no need for payment, this machine wouldn't have gotten to where it is without people helping me, I'd be more than happy to pay it forward)
How does the motor/VFD handle the heavier cuts at lower RPM in steel with a 3/4" endmill or 3" facing mill? Have you tried rigid taping with it? I'm curious if the single speed pulley is sufficient for the lower (500) rpm range in tapping steel? Also, how is the timing pulley working out? Can we get the company info to order from? I have a PM-30MV that I'm currently upgrading to CNC, and I'm debating this spindle upgrade w/ a 3-4HP AC motor or going with the CNC Depot FM-40F and accepting most likely not using lower speeds for rigid tapping as I'm not sure the VFD can compensate for that much correcting at such low speeds. Additionally, how often do you plan on repacking the bearings? Thanks for your videos; they've been very helpful and sorry for all the questions.
No problem at all with the questions. To answer the torque question first. I have had no problem at all with the motor for the cuts I take. Considering I have the machine converted to CNC, I rarely use traditional manual machining strategies like using large cutters at low rpm with large stepovers and very slow speeds. I'm typically cutting in the range of 500-800SFM in steels and stainless using high speed machining toolpaths. I use a 3" facemill fairly often and the machine has no problem pushing that down to 1200RPM where I typically run it. The rigidity of the machine is way more limiting than spindle power or torque. As for rigid tapping, that's unfortunately not something I can speak to. I have made thousands of threaded holes on the machine and all but a dozen or so were done with threadmills rather than taps. I do have a floating tap holder (my machine isn't set up to do rigid tapping because I never set up a tachometer to input to my control).
Overall, it's going to be night and day better than the CNC Depot spindles if what you're looking for is torque and ability to run at lower speeds.
For the timing pulley, it is louder than a v belt but a complete solution to any potential loss of torque transfer or slip. The motor I bought I don't believe is available directly from the same place I ordered it years ago but there are plenty of places available to buy it from.
@@mpmachining7227 Thanks for the info. I think i'll go with a Teknic 4hp AC servo, digital phase converter and a spindle pulley upgrade, although i'm worried about weight on this weak column even using a counter balance pulley system on linear rails.
What runout are you getting at the spindle taper after the bearing upgrades? I'm debating on keeping the R8 spindle or upgrading to the Tormach BT30 spindle, however i cant find any info on the Tormach BT30 spindle for dimensions.
How often are you having to repack the bearings and what kind of heat buildup are you seeing after running the spindle all day?
What type of timing pulleys did you use? I was looking at GT3 with 9mm width.
@@mathis.manufacturing I haven't repacked my bearings since I did the upgrade and even running continuously at 10k there is no real heat buildup in the spindle. Still what I would call warm to the touch but I haven't had reason to take a measurement of the temp.
For runout, I'm getting 0.0002" pretty consistently on the spindle taper using a Bestest 0.0001" indicator. I have exclusively been using the tormach TTS system as the height repeatability of an R8 taper was absolutely awful in my experience even torquing the drawbar every time. I use a decent amount of ER25 tormach genuine and some eBay knock off TTS holders and even on the ER taper I'm getting 0.0002".
For the column rigidity, I added about 100lbs to mine and with the air strut counterweight I'm usually it's not a problem at all.
Hey did you replace the entire spindle? I have the same machine and am looking for a bt30 drop in replacement and not sure what I'm looking for you seem to definitely know more than I when it comes to suping these machines up thank you for the effort and the information! And any advice on spindle replacement if that's what you did or not?
I only ended up replacing the spindle bearings. The actual spindle cartridge I still have the stock R8 (using the Tormach TTS system for tool holders). I did some digging and really had no luck finding a drop in replacement to BT30 for this size mill. The reality of it was that even with my upgrades to a 10k RPM spindle at 5HP, the tool holder is far from being the limit on the machine right now. Flex in my Z column, even after epoxy granite fill, ends up giving me cutting issues far before I have ever had tool pullout or any other issues with the tts system.
@@mpmachining7227 yeah I'm going to go with your build and just upgrade the spindle bearings and the spindle motor and and some sort if counterweight pulley system on the back if the column for the z axis. I need to make your headstock adapter plate that was an excellent decision and looks well made thank you you all this information its about to help me out alot. So somewhere on here I should be able to find the link to the bearings you got yeah? What about the design for the adapter? I'll buy a print if I have to!
You definitely won't be disappointed. Bearing part numbers are all located in the video description of this video. If you have any trouble finding them let me know.
The Fusion 360 file for the head spacer is available for free in my dropbox. The link to that file and some others are in the video description of the Chapter 5 video in this series so that should get you what you need.
Is the spindle upgrade worth it if I do not use the mill on a daily basis?
I am going to run 3hp motors. Any suggestions? Reccomendations?
I absolutely love my marathon Micromax 5hp motor and have helped someone swap their pm 30 motor for the 3hp version and they are really happy with it. Also highly recommend the delta vfds for the motor control and 3 phase generation
@@mpmachining7227 going to probably add those motors to the list. When you say Delta VFD, I'm a little confused. Is the mill on 3 phase power? I just assumed it was 220 single phase? If not, anyway ya could explain the setup. I know you are probably swamped. The help is appreciated!
@@adamcoker5604 so my control and servos run off of 120V single phase (through transformers and DC conversion obviously) but the spindle motor is 220V 3 phase. Obviously I don't have 3 phase in my basement so the VFD generates the 3 phase and varies the frequency to control the spindle speed. (I have a whole video on that if you're interested in more details)
@@mpmachining7227 I am very interested in the video. Are all PM30's 3phase on the spindle? I hit the buy button before even looking into that. I had to use a VFD for a 3phase industrial sewing machine in my single phase shop. I am familiar with vfd's. You never had trouble with voltage equalization with the 3rd phase?
Is the video in your Playlist?
I am going to build this mill probably 90% like yours.
The stock PM30 is 100% single phase 220V with a BLDC motor that's really underpowered and going to be a huge pain for you if you plan on upgrading to CNC. The marathon motor (and any other useful induction motor to use for a spindle) is going to be 3 phase. As long as you buy a quality VFD then the IGBTs will take care of all of the heavy lifting for equalizing voltage and giving you a clean 3 phase.
I explain it in decent detail without being too technical in my VFD video if I remember correctly. And yes, all of the videos are in this same playlist. I unfortunately never did film any sort of close out video to this series and it's been near a year since I have filmed any content because I have been so busy. Maybe one day I'll pick it up again
Wow, at 19:52, that casting is all akimbo.