If they keep losing their stack when they win one and they're sitting behind you that's perfect ..because you get to see what most the table does before deciding what to do against the maniac lol
Hey Phil, I have noticed that there is a certain type of maniac that I've seen who wins tournaments, but I'm unsure of profitability. I've played with a few different players who have won 10 or so circuit rings, bracelets, etc. who have this style. They tend to play HUGE in the early stages of the tournament. They'll-3 bet a 300 raise at the 100-100-100 level to 1300 with damn near everything even remotely playable. They play big post flop and don't stop unless they are played back at, and sometimes not even then. Their stacks take big swings, as you can imagine, but they have *wins*. This has me wondering because I've always assumed that early stages of a tournament should be played like a cash game essentially. ICM theory alone dictates that 3xing a starting stack in the first level or two shouldn't be all that valuable, with diminished returns the more you add to your stack. This video highlights the general strategies to beat this type of player, but I'm curious to your thoughts on the overall profitability of this kind of play style in large field live MTTs. This assumes weaker fields, as I don't see this play style in higher buy in events. Do you have any thoughts on the overall profitability of these maniacs compared to a more TAG approach in lower stake live MTTs? Thank you!
sounds just like the way i play ive been playing for a couple months i play like a scycopath and i end up winning although a lot of people get pissed at me but they all lose because they are afraid to lose i dont play with that fear so far im up money 8 out of the 9 weeks ive been playing
I watched a Maniac Tilt last week. on a small stakes 500 cap game 1-3 ...this man put in probably 2500 in an hour....straddling 100 at the end... i waited for AK ...put him all in... he had his best hand of the night with QQ... Ace came and i won... you have to watch out for a maniac... with the polarized strat... otherwise the tornado could take you
It's been ages since I played Poker regularly and I was never particularly good, but a maniacal type that gave me much difficulty was something like #3 but with the addition that we were severely short-stacked in an HU Turbo SNG starting us off with only 25 BBs. These players seemed so aggressive that they would not only 3-bet or even 4-bet with almost their entire range but also c-bet and even donk bet every single flop. Yet I started to wonder if that maniacal strategy might even be rather optimal for this short-stacked turbo HU format, since if I fold even a few times pre or a single time post, I might be looking down at a 20- BBs while they have 30+ BBs. Then by this point, they might already have enough of an edge from an ICM type of perspective to justify jamming or calling a shove with ATC. And being a turbo format, no session ever lasts very long to form a comprehensive history with any given player to help understand their range. With that added property of being short-stacked, it seems much more difficult to find vulnerabilities in the way they play. I never even found much comfort being in position against these players since if they're going to donk-bet every single flop, then I don't gain any real narrowing information about their range. The best I've found I could do in that sort of structure and format is to look them up even with queen high at the river figuring queen high might actually still be good against ATC, or turn into a similar maniac myself.
I played against a maniac recently who didn't seem to believe in 2-betting. He would either 3-bet in position at super high frequency, or if there was no open he would limp and then 3-bet anyone who raised over the limp(s). Routinely c-bet 60% on flop too. Super bizarre playstyle but great for action. Usually he would be in position when he did this, but I managed to win a huge pot (350bbs) when he limp 3-bet my BTN iso. I thought I'd seen a lot of things at the table but that style was new to me. Hope it catches on.
He wants to have the betting lead and get it down to heads up. He thinks if he just opens he’s going to get a bunch of callers and has to go multi-way, which makes it harder for him to go crazy if he doesn’t smash a flop
Also when we’re betting flop with a polarized range: should we ever continue with our bluffs? What I’m specifically worried about is that the maniac will probably notice “ok, every time they call my check raise, they have a strong hand so I can just fold to sometimes a turn but especially a river bet if my draw misses”. Or am I giving them too much credit. I guess if I were to answer my own question, maybe we only continue with premium made hands / high equity combo draws at first but when we notice the maniac overfolding turn and river then we start continuing some bluffs?
Hi Phil, great video! For me, the hardest boards to play vs a maniac in NLHE are the lower boards where top pair hands/lower overpairs (e.g pocket 9s) are more vulnerable and need more protection, but hate getting raised and then barreled. Do you have any tips for how to navigate these boards?
if there's a club draw on 256 and you're holding jacks with the jack of clubs, you can just check back because you're gonna be blocking the clubs when he bets the turn/river. Use protection bets with your vulnerable overpairs, and check with your stronger overpairs that have good bluff catching ability. sometimes an ace will come on the turn when you've got kings, and that sucks, but you can't just go around being afraid that future streets will make your hand weaker. if you've got jacks on a queen high board and he goes for a river bet because he senses weakness, you can bluff catch.
I find maniac are great for the table action, gets a lot of other players that might generally be on the tight side opening up to try and double up/bust the maniac, make for a good game with guys chasing draws they might not normally do. Side note, can you do a video on how/what you make note of on players both live and online?
Been playing a lot of maniacs in PLO that VPIP close to 100% and donk pot the flop about half the time! And always continue betting on turn/river. Tough facing a psb on river with bare overpair!
The problem with maniacs is that they still get the same amount of good hands as everyone else. Actually more because they have no real ranges. Playing against a table full is like going against a zombie hoard. They're going to get you no matter what.
Phil - great content. Thank you so much for these videos. I have a maniac question for you. How do you deal with someone who always 3bets or shoves on you when you raise in position (c/o, d) when it folds to you with a big stack? I tend to slow down instead of call them off. Thoughts?
this is old and super late but would also just add to call down maniac 1 types lighter when you do check back thin value type hands once or twice since they are initially going to misinterpret your checks
It seems lately that every time villain donk-bet jams the flop it is a bluff. Snapping off jam-bluffs and doubling up is about the most fun you can have in a poker tournament.
Phil, I'll make it short and sweet. I have one that's a hybrid of 1 and 3. More 1 than 3, but subtle differences. She can't help herself and never wants to stop playing. She goes on monster runs, and ends up taking everybody's chips bc pots get overinflated and they win with hands like 23s or J4o when the opponent has thin value hands and missed draws. You nailed it. I would love any advice to further extract money when I do play against her.
I'm playing maniac 1 style (40/25/8). I have most problems at table full of tight pasive players. They often flat calls or limps strong broadways like AK,AQ ,and just calls all streets if they hit. Otherwise,my speciality are loose splashy games and multiway pots.
That’s cause they’re used to having maniacs at the table trying to run them over so in their mind they’re protecting their limping range in case you want to exploit them or blast off with worse value
Phil. Hi, good video. I saw, on a stream where one guy is going all in 'blind' every hand (as I remember, $2k in a $10-20 game). Not very common, or practical, BUT what's the "solution" to him?? PS you could put up the summary charts of all 'maniacs' at the end of the video.
Just played a guy that went all in on the floo 2 times in a row reraised my 1 bb raise to all in and one waited till the river to go all in with a flush after he bluff 68o i have never been so possed off in my life 😡
I always found the best way to counter a maniac was by just playing their game with them. Get raised on jj7ssx in a 3bp? Just raise again w QQ even if you're deep. Often times maniacs shovel in money w equity of some sort so you punish them by getting in even more mo ney ie they have a flush draw or straight draw. Flop comes Kh7c4h and you get xr w KTo btn vs bb? 3b call off (100bbs atleast) your KT often times they have a draw or pair + draw. The best way to play against a strong maniac is just bet big and thin and raise their raises its high variance but the highest ev. It's also important to have a solid preflop vs them as well, if they 3b alot 4b them alot etc. It's also smart to flat and not 3b some pretty strong hands so you can show up in srps w a much stronger range. Typically a maniac will sometimes fold to aggression but will attack when you're capped, this coupled w the concept that u 3b strong hands to reduce spr no longer being necessary (as maniacs reduces spr easily on their own in srps on their own) makes flatting premiums quite strong... furthermore strong maniacs have a very good range construction and use that to go thin and large against capped ranges expecting you to try and play against them and call down but if you have a much less capped range they'll very easily value own themselves. Anyways the best way to play against a maniac is too not play scared money and not try too hard to directly exploit them on a surface level, be aggressive call light value thin etc.
8:48 never slowplay? I thought we’re supposed to “give them the rope to hang themselves”. Like if somebody is overbluffing I figured we’d really want to slowplay since it will induce bluffs? I’m a beginner so maybe my confusion is mostly semantics / a misunderstanding of what it means to slow play. Lets say I flop top set IP, I imagine the move on this board is to c-bet the flop, call a check raise, and check the turn expecting a bluff raise on the river? bc if they attack weakness they’re probably clever enough to recognize that if I bet the flop, call a check raise, then bet the the turn, that I _probably_ have them beat. Especially if I haven’t been going for that extra 10% EV and have been giving up to a lot of previous aggression.
Phil, it seems like yourself and all the others who made it big during the online poker boom--prior to solvers--were all very quick to pick up on these adjustments. Are these adjustments things that came intuitively to you using your own logic, or did you have help help from others/coaches early on?
hi phill , i have met player that look like maniac, but they dont bluff raise often, they often turn Middlling strength hand that is good enough to bluff catch into bluff or dont know are they trying to bluff or value. e.g in a 3 bet flop A xx caller with JJ will end up rasing . i am not sure , should i 3 bet raise post flop as a good exploit or i just need to call down more often with TP hand
You're not supposed to tighten up in the face of tight players. Best idea is to only play small pots against them until you do have the nuts. If you face much resistance, muck. They've got it.
Phil, I have a question regarding the exploit you recommend for Maniac 3. At 8:35 you say give them rope to let them bluff when you suspect they have air. This is a slowplay. Then at 8:36 you say never slow play. Did you mean to say to never slowplay them? You are contradicting yourself. Please let me know if I misunderstood.
I think when he says never slowplay he is referring to the flop. if you have a big hand on the flop ALWAYS.bet due to the tendency for this player type to raise. The give him rope comment is more about getting to the river with a value hand - often more profitable to check -call than to try for thin value.
I am Maniac 2 ... But I bluff big mostly and win on most of sessions I beat most multi table grinders as easy . Grinders always fold to my big bluffs .
Thanks for the tips Phil. But as you very well know, this video is not so much useful without first answering the question of whether we are talking about tournament play or cash games.
Hey Phil, great video as always. Finding Equilibrium has a video covering a very similar concept (ua-cam.com/video/QNOX7LH9T6A/v-deo.html) and it seems like the solver is responding to aggression with counter aggression as opposed to playing more passive, as you potentially suggest against the third type of maniac, by over-checking to prevent check raises. The solver's rationale seems to be: If villain is mostly barreling with draws, a passive strategy with lots of checking/calling allows them to realize equity and even play more aggressively with draws (one of the main reasons to play them passively is that you don't want to be raised off your equity). I'm curious how you would take this into account when adjusting to maniacs.
The pace of the information is quite rapid with many somewhat complicated poker terms. Found it difficult to follow. What is meant by a "polarized range"?
I’ve always had problems with the maniac sitting behind my cards. That fool goes on winners tilt and blows up his winning sessions.
Me too!
That's funny, because I have a problem with the maniac commenting and liking this comment.
If they keep losing their stack when they win one and they're sitting behind you that's perfect ..because you get to see what most the table does before deciding what to do against the maniac lol
We don't realize how good we got it with these. Excellent as usual Phil!
This is seriously some of the best poker content on YT. I watched this one 3 times
Awesome! Thank you so much!
Thank you for these videos Phil! You’re the GOAT of explaining strategy in an easy way to understand for me
Thanks for the kind words, Jimmy. I’m glad you’re enjoying them!
Ty for this Phil. As the maniac in question, it's cool to see how people may adjust to me
Excellent video, clear and concise. Thanks for this.
This is liquid gold. Thanks Phil
Hey Phil, I have noticed that there is a certain type of maniac that I've seen who wins tournaments, but I'm unsure of profitability. I've played with a few different players who have won 10 or so circuit rings, bracelets, etc. who have this style. They tend to play HUGE in the early stages of the tournament. They'll-3 bet a 300 raise at the 100-100-100 level to 1300 with damn near everything even remotely playable. They play big post flop and don't stop unless they are played back at, and sometimes not even then. Their stacks take big swings, as you can imagine, but they have *wins*. This has me wondering because I've always assumed that early stages of a tournament should be played like a cash game essentially. ICM theory alone dictates that 3xing a starting stack in the first level or two shouldn't be all that valuable, with diminished returns the more you add to your stack. This video highlights the general strategies to beat this type of player, but I'm curious to your thoughts on the overall profitability of this kind of play style in large field live MTTs. This assumes weaker fields, as I don't see this play style in higher buy in events. Do you have any thoughts on the overall profitability of these maniacs compared to a more TAG approach in lower stake live MTTs? Thank you!
past 5-6 tournaments ive played online ive 5-10x my stack then lose with AA vs KK or get KK vs aces once i settle down
Experience can mislead or at least be hard to interpret.
Enough maniacs play a zillion events, some will have good runs 🎉
sounds just like the way i play ive been playing for a couple months i play like a scycopath and i end up winning although a lot of people get pissed at me
but they all lose because they are afraid to lose i dont play with that fear so far im up money 8 out of the 9 weeks ive been playing
Man I wish had watched this video a few days earlier before I punted to the first maniac. Thanks! Excellent content.
Glad it was helpful, even if a bit too late! Next time!
Solid info to put in the back of your mind before the main. # Hoping Galfond goes deep this year.
I watched a Maniac Tilt last week. on a small stakes 500 cap game 1-3 ...this man put in probably 2500 in an hour....straddling 100 at the end... i waited for AK ...put him all in... he had his best hand of the night with QQ... Ace came and i won... you have to watch out for a maniac... with the polarized strat... otherwise the tornado could take you
Great video Phil thank you!✌
WOW !! Disappointed how long it took me to find these. Phil is the GOAT
Thank you 😊. Glad you’re here now!
It's been ages since I played Poker regularly and I was never particularly good, but a maniacal type that gave me much difficulty was something like #3 but with the addition that we were severely short-stacked in an HU Turbo SNG starting us off with only 25 BBs. These players seemed so aggressive that they would not only 3-bet or even 4-bet with almost their entire range but also c-bet and even donk bet every single flop.
Yet I started to wonder if that maniacal strategy might even be rather optimal for this short-stacked turbo HU format, since if I fold even a few times pre or a single time post, I might be looking down at a 20- BBs while they have 30+ BBs. Then by this point, they might already have enough of an edge from an ICM type of perspective to justify jamming or calling a shove with ATC. And being a turbo format, no session ever lasts very long to form a comprehensive history with any given player to help understand their range.
With that added property of being short-stacked, it seems much more difficult to find vulnerabilities in the way they play. I never even found much comfort being in position against these players since if they're going to donk-bet every single flop, then I don't gain any real narrowing information about their range. The best I've found I could do in that sort of structure and format is to look them up even with queen high at the river figuring queen high might actually still be good against ATC, or turn into a similar maniac myself.
maniac 2 reminded me of when phil folded kings full against eli back in the days. 💪🏾 discipline
I played against a maniac recently who didn't seem to believe in 2-betting. He would either 3-bet in position at super high frequency, or if there was no open he would limp and then 3-bet anyone who raised over the limp(s). Routinely c-bet 60% on flop too. Super bizarre playstyle but great for action. Usually he would be in position when he did this, but I managed to win a huge pot (350bbs) when he limp 3-bet my BTN iso. I thought I'd seen a lot of things at the table but that style was new to me. Hope it catches on.
He wants to have the betting lead and get it down to heads up. He thinks if he just opens he’s going to get a bunch of callers and has to go multi-way, which makes it harder for him to go crazy if he doesn’t smash a flop
Also when we’re betting flop with a polarized range: should we ever continue with our bluffs? What I’m specifically worried about is that the maniac will probably notice “ok, every time they call my check raise, they have a strong hand so I can just fold to sometimes a turn but especially a river bet if my draw misses”. Or am I giving them too much credit.
I guess if I were to answer my own question, maybe we only continue with premium made hands / high equity combo draws at first but when we notice the maniac overfolding turn and river then we start continuing some bluffs?
Hi Phil, great video! For me, the hardest boards to play vs a maniac in NLHE are the lower boards where top pair hands/lower overpairs (e.g pocket 9s) are more vulnerable and need more protection, but hate getting raised and then barreled. Do you have any tips for how to navigate these boards?
if there's a club draw on 256 and you're holding jacks with the jack of clubs, you can just check back because you're gonna be blocking the clubs when he bets the turn/river. Use protection bets with your vulnerable overpairs, and check with your stronger overpairs that have good bluff catching ability. sometimes an ace will come on the turn when you've got kings, and that sucks, but you can't just go around being afraid that future streets will make your hand weaker. if you've got jacks on a queen high board and he goes for a river bet because he senses weakness, you can bluff catch.
I find maniac are great for the table action, gets a lot of other players that might generally be on the tight side opening up to try and double up/bust the maniac, make for a good game with guys chasing draws they might not normally do.
Side note, can you do a video on how/what you make note of on players both live and online?
Nice timestamps 🎉
Great video!
Been playing a lot of maniacs in PLO that VPIP close to 100% and donk pot the flop about half the time! And always continue betting on turn/river. Tough facing a psb on river with bare overpair!
The problem with maniacs is that they still get the same amount of good hands as everyone else. Actually more because they have no real ranges. Playing against a table full is like going against a zombie hoard. They're going to get you no matter what.
Phil - great content. Thank you so much for these videos. I have a maniac question for you. How do you deal with someone who always 3bets or shoves on you when you raise in position (c/o, d) when it folds to you with a big stack? I tend to slow down instead of call them off. Thoughts?
Great vid, Thanks Phil
Hard to not Love Phil.
this is old and super late but would also just add to call down maniac 1 types lighter when you do check back thin value type hands once or twice since they are initially going to misinterpret your checks
Damn it... need to adjust my maniac play style now 😂
It seems lately that every time villain donk-bet jams the flop it is a bluff. Snapping off jam-bluffs and doubling up is about the most fun you can have in a poker tournament.
Phil, I'll make it short and sweet. I have one that's a hybrid of 1 and 3. More 1 than 3, but subtle differences. She can't help herself and never wants to stop playing. She goes on monster runs, and ends up taking everybody's chips bc pots get overinflated and they win with hands like 23s or J4o when the opponent has thin value hands and missed draws.
You nailed it. I would love any advice to further extract money when I do play against her.
She loses 90% of the time when she plays at the club I'm at. But when she wins she wins huge. I also tend to see sizing tells with these types.
Pls make a vdo on how to play against NIT reg
I'm playing maniac 1 style (40/25/8). I have most problems at table full of tight pasive players. They often flat calls or limps strong broadways like AK,AQ ,and just calls all streets if they hit. Otherwise,my speciality are loose splashy games and multiway pots.
That’s cause they’re used to having maniacs at the table trying to run them over so in their mind they’re protecting their limping range in case you want to exploit them or blast off with worse value
Thank you! I find that maniacs are my bane. I always think I can beat them, but then they always get the best of me.
Phil. Hi, good video. I saw, on a stream where one guy is going all in 'blind' every hand (as I remember, $2k in a $10-20 game). Not very common, or practical, BUT what's the "solution" to him?? PS you could put up the summary charts of all 'maniacs' at the end of the video.
Just played a guy that went all in on the floo 2 times in a row reraised my 1 bb raise to all in and one waited till the river to go all in with a flush after he bluff 68o i have never been so possed off in my life 😡
I always found the best way to counter a maniac was by just playing their game with them. Get raised on jj7ssx in a 3bp? Just raise again w QQ even if you're deep. Often times maniacs shovel in money w equity of some sort so you punish them by getting in even more mo ney ie they have a flush draw or straight draw. Flop comes Kh7c4h and you get xr w KTo btn vs bb? 3b call off (100bbs atleast) your KT often times they have a draw or pair + draw. The best way to play against a strong maniac is just bet big and thin and raise their raises its high variance but the highest ev. It's also important to have a solid preflop vs them as well, if they 3b alot 4b them alot etc. It's also smart to flat and not 3b some pretty strong hands so you can show up in srps w a much stronger range. Typically a maniac will sometimes fold to aggression but will attack when you're capped, this coupled w the concept that u 3b strong hands to reduce spr no longer being necessary (as maniacs reduces spr easily on their own in srps on their own) makes flatting premiums quite strong... furthermore strong maniacs have a very good range construction and use that to go thin and large against capped ranges expecting you to try and play against them and call down but if you have a much less capped range they'll very easily value own themselves. Anyways the best way to play against a maniac is too not play scared money and not try too hard to directly exploit them on a surface level, be aggressive call light value thin etc.
8:48 never slowplay? I thought we’re supposed to “give them the rope to hang themselves”. Like if somebody is overbluffing I figured we’d really want to slowplay since it will induce bluffs? I’m a beginner so maybe my confusion is mostly semantics / a misunderstanding of what it means to slow play.
Lets say I flop top set IP, I imagine the move on this board is to c-bet the flop, call a check raise, and check the turn expecting a bluff raise on the river? bc if they attack weakness they’re probably clever enough to recognize that if I bet the flop, call a check raise, then bet the the turn, that I _probably_ have them beat. Especially if I haven’t been going for that extra 10% EV and have been giving up to a lot of previous aggression.
Be like water.😈
The bigger the maniac the tighter your sphincter has to be.
Phil, it seems like yourself and all the others who made it big during the online poker boom--prior to solvers--were all very quick to pick up on these adjustments. Are these adjustments things that came intuitively to you using your own logic, or did you have help help from others/coaches early on?
hi phill , i have met player that look like maniac, but they dont bluff raise often, they often turn Middlling strength hand that is good enough to bluff catch into bluff or dont know are they trying to bluff or value. e.g in a 3 bet flop A xx caller with JJ will end up rasing . i am not sure , should i 3 bet raise post flop as a good exploit or i just need to call down more often with TP hand
maniac 3 does what they see on TV, without fully knowing why.
How tight should we adjust to tight players? Folding AA to raise?
You're not supposed to tighten up in the face of tight players. Best idea is to only play small pots against them until you do have the nuts. If you face much resistance, muck. They've got it.
Can you explain how to play against a maniac that jams pre-flop every hand and only has the nuts when we’re heads up?😂
Phil, I have a question regarding the exploit you recommend for Maniac 3. At 8:35 you say give them rope to let them bluff when you suspect they have air. This is a slowplay. Then at 8:36 you say never slow play. Did you mean to say to never slowplay them? You are contradicting yourself. Please let me know if I misunderstood.
I think when he says never slowplay he is referring to the flop. if you have a big hand on the flop ALWAYS.bet due to the tendency for this player type to raise. The give him rope comment is more about getting to the river with a value hand - often more profitable to check -call than to try for thin value.
at about 10:00 he elaborates on this concept
11:30 says specifically what I was thinking he was thinking (didn't watch whole video before commenting :-)
I am Maniac 2 ... But I bluff big mostly and win on most of sessions
I beat most multi table grinders as easy . Grinders always fold to my big bluffs .
Can u teach me poker phil
I’m kinda #2 lol :( , thanks for the video
Thanks for the tips Phil. But as you very well know, this video is not so much useful without first answering the question of whether we are talking about tournament play or cash games.
How do you beat a maniac checker? Jk =p
Hey Phil, great video as always. Finding Equilibrium has a video covering a very similar concept (ua-cam.com/video/QNOX7LH9T6A/v-deo.html) and it seems like the solver is responding to aggression with counter aggression as opposed to playing more passive, as you potentially suggest against the third type of maniac, by over-checking to prevent check raises. The solver's rationale seems to be: If villain is mostly barreling with draws, a passive strategy with lots of checking/calling allows them to realize equity and even play more aggressively with draws (one of the main reasons to play them passively is that you don't want to be raised off your equity). I'm curious how you would take this into account when adjusting to maniacs.
The pace of the information is quite rapid with many somewhat complicated poker terms. Found it difficult to follow. What is meant by a "polarized range"?
Bluffs or the nuts, essentially.
Just play tight and bet your good hands
thanks for killing our hourly bro
As a Maniac #3 I DISLIKE this video, STOP teaching the passive limpers how to "BEAT" us 😠🤪