No... Have seen old guys do Stringing race cars with the car on a flat surface ( on a tar surface). Trolly Jack is what they use to jack the car up to allow adjustments
Good video! A couple things that I have found after doing my own string alignments: Use 1" EMT conduit instead of the PVC. If the jack stands are placed in a different spot front or rear, there will be different flex, and that can alter the actual distance between the slots in the PVC. We are talking very small differences, but I can hold my measuring to .25 mm. I do my alignments outside, if the sun is beating on the front tubing but not the rear, with PVC, this could cause a difference between the slots. PVC expands and contracts at a rate much higher than steel. Even if this wouldn't be an issue for you, steel EMT would be much more stable and durable. Doing string alignments is all about eliminating variables. Use the thinnest hacksaw blade you can find and cut the slot by hand for best precision. To hold the steering wheel, you can get a steering wheel holder for alignments on Amazon. Looks like a little guy with a red head. Works great and it's a lot easier to use. I also use 50 lb test, .36mm diameter braided deep sea fishing line in bright yellow, it is very user friendly, doesn't knot up and tangle, yet it is easy to tie knots. It is highly visible so you don't bump it. And it holds a nice taught line with the weight without stretching. Some manufacturers measure toe in as a positive # so be aware what your manufacturer is actually stating. Here's a great toe conversion calculator: www.1728.org/toe-out.htm
A few years ago I thought of using this method and used a pair of slotted wood battens for the string end supports, this method is by far the most accurate way to make wheel alignment, you did an excellent job of showing how to set the system up, hope not to many people spotted the little mistake you made when cutting the second set of slots in the wrong side of the pipe :)
I've used both string aligning on my Camaro because it sits too low for me to try any other method but I used solid metal bars on each front wheel on my truck to set total toe. Technically you are correct but I think the guy is referring to the fact that doing the alignment by string method the way in which you measure it is backwards. If you were using bars on the wheels doing total toe measurement with 2 tape measures and say you were setting toe in then moral of the story is less you want a smaller measurement on the front tape measure vs the rear tape measure. But when your doing string alignments and setting toe in the number on the front edge of the rim on your measuring stick gets larger and the rear gets smaller because as the tires toe in they pull away from the string on the front since the string stays stationary that is set square and the rear of the tire or rim gets closer to the string. It's hard to explain but hopefully it makes sense.
To me it don't matter because I know what he's talking about I just think a video is needed for a lot of ppl and to me it is what it is thank you tho u are correct 💯
The context about camber before toe at around the 31:00 mark actually goes for the front too. Camber (and front caster if adjustable) should always be done be done before toe at all 4 corners. Virtually every car out there will experience some degree of toe change when camber (and / or caster) is adjusted and thus toe should ALWAYS be the last thing you adjust and never the first (unless that is the only thing you are going to be making adjustments to. Even with camber plate adjustment, many cars will experience a noticeable toe change because its a factor of knuckle / upright geometry and NOTHING to do with the chassis suspension pickup points.
Hit up a "dollar store" and grab 8 cheap smooth thin cutting boards. Stack 2 of them, and stick them under each tire. Almost totally removes stiction when you're making adjustments. Sure, you could get fancy bearing plates - but then you wouldn't be watching a DIY vid! :)
Probably shop incompetence, typical when you have a "pro" do it. I recently had an alignment done on our old van and sure enough, the wheel is cocked at 11:30
I did alignment work for 25 years, I test drove everything, I made every effort to ensure my customers never complained of pulling, worn tires, or crooked steering wheels. Parking lot would be jam packed from open to close. Been 20 years since retirement, and customers still call for me.
First, Great instructional guys. After dealing with incompetent shops in my area that literally can't align your car unless it's 100% stock. I decided to do this my self. Glad I did, can confirm best alignment I've ever had on my Mazda 3. One note for people like me with OCD, you can help compensate for human error during setup by making the distance between your bars significantly longer than the length of the car, if you have the room. Due to the relative length from the pivot points when making adjustments this let's you be more precise in twords the vehicle. Hopefully that made sense lo
This doesn't really help because the measure points are still based on wheelbase and the accuracy of your ruler+naked eye. The wheelbase of the car is long enough so that the lateral movement of the front and rear bars can be manipulated precise enough with the dexterity of your hand. I.e. the change to the angle of the string is small enough to be precise.
Thank you, my dad's 82 just had his MOT, they replaced his track rods but never did the alignment. Literally i confronted them, they told me they NEVER bothered, Disgusting i told him to report them to VOSA. I used to be a mechanic, i left to study Automotive Engineer. I didn't do the repairs because i was trained on a machine and didn't have the proper kit. I've never seen tracking done like this. It's makes sense your recreating the track bars, I'm going to sort it out for him. You can always learn a new way/trick. Thank you so much.
Great explanation. Instead of taping and measuring threads on the tie rods, I think it’s easier to just make one full turn of the adjuster and then measure the change at the wheels. You only have to do it once per car and you get a precise measurement of the amount of toe in/out for each turn. Also, knowing that value, you can make quick toe adjustments at the track without having to restring.
I had to replace both rear trailing arm bushings on my 2003 Volvo S40. I didn't want to spend any extra on alignment. Followed this method carefully. I am amazed at the results. Car now tracks as it should. Only minor downside is adjusting the alignment without a lift can be time-consuming, as you may need to measure, jack up, adjust, lower, settle suspension and then measure again, several times!
Boy, I've watch A LOT of videos about toe lately and, after finally *getting it*, can't get over how many 'experts' and even expensive tools out there that aren't taking into account the possibility that one wheel's toe may be very different than the one opposite it. Those methods and tools just assume to measure the total distance between both tires and split that difference as the target. Sigh.🙄 Good job with the vid, and thanks for redeeming my faith in humanity.
Thanks for your video. I’m a low budget UA-cam mechanic that depends on people like you.Makes total sense coming from a construction background. We’ll explained. Much love bro
Might be worth mentioning to release the rubber gator/boot clips on the tie rods when rotating as the twist associated will likely shorten their life. But a great instructional, thanks!
When you set the string line up for the front, you have to measure from the CENTRE of the wheel (fore and aft), where you measured it, 3-4 inches fwd of the centre, you are setting the zero to any error that is already in place.
when you are spelling center the e goes before the r. also fully spell forward. dont use fwd because that means "front wheel drive" since where talking about an automotive topic. you're spelling things wrong and making it confusing to read.
Thank you for the great effort on explaining this wheel alignment method, I do my car using this method of the fishing line around the car for toe adjustment and the angle finder for the front camber adjustment with camber bolts on the struts. Finding a perfect level ground is the challenge when one is doing this at home
when doing camber, try not to use the tyre as it bulges at the bottom, maybe 60psi would help negate this error, but get a flat bar the correct rim length for the DIYers
Thank you. A thorough, concise and totally professional tutorial for us DYI'ers. You've taught me so much with your channel, especially with my son's Volvo, his first car. We watch the videos together and proceed with confidence after FCP Euro's pro tutorials.
This is one of the best tutorial videos on the art of aligning the wheels on the car. Best of all, you don't need fancy equipment to do it either, just simple PVC pipes, strings, and angle finder from HomeDepot and the rest of the tools most people would already have it. Best of all, this method works even for a high precision race car like the VW R36, it will work for every cars, with the exception of the actual mechanisms to make the adjustments on the actual camber and toe in in each model. I had always had my cars aligned at the dealer because they have the factory specs for camber and toe in but I will likely use the procedure outlined here to check and adjust if necessary in the future. I could even use the method to check if the dealer actually did their job correctly on my cars. Great video and very well done!
Great video on alignment! I to am a suspension mechanic (old school) and started in the late 70's. To be honest I've never been in the racing type of alignment and like your explanation of different angle adjustments for different types of racing, suspensions and tires. One thing I noticed about almost all alignment videos is that there is very little talk about SAI (KPI for us old timers) and Scrub Radius. One easy visual way to see it is a beginner DYI mechanic will tend to mount deep dish or heavily outer off set rims (tires sticking way out of fenders) but the pro mechanics keep more of a stock look meaning wheel assembly stays tucked in more under supervision and bearing load. Basically that's Scrub Radius as you know. Your thoughts or do you feel it's worth making a video on subject. Aloha Zac
Thank You! This helps. My son and I truly need the means to get things back squared away on our own. We are always wrenching and 'set the toe and let it go' is NOT for us. Attention to Detail matters!!
WOW, thank you for this. I am going to save lots of money and know the work is done correctly.
7 місяців тому+1
Well, I dont have a 964 or 944 anymore. Only an American and Japanese car, i guess i dont have to worry about my alignment anymore since it only applies to Euro cars apparently 😊 On a serious note, good general advice for the DIYer :)
Finally a video that mentions the reference box needed to determine the body to wheel relationship. I see the string methods often use the body wheel wells to measure from, assuming the body can guide what straight really is, so as to not create a crab walk.
Excellent video. I did the alignement on my oldtimer lotus esprit using this method years ago, but this is the first video that explains things so clear. Thanks
I've been seeing race mechanics do this kind of work at Sepang circuit where I work for decades and I'm always curious how this string alignment work. Finally you've answer all my questions. Tq
This is a very comprehensive, well done description of the toe alignment process. I would, however, always do the camber adjustment first, as it will effect the toe. I know this is mentioned in the video, but should be stressed more highly, even to 5he point of showing the camber adjustment first. Thanks for a great video.
This is the kind of video I've been looking for. Great explanation! I'm going to try this on my car because it desperately needs it. You did an amazing job teaching how to do this! Thank you!
I agree that it's more accurate than shop alignment, much cheaper in the long run too, and you can do whatever you want, no risk of someone disagreeing with your decisions etc.
Excellent video, however, your description of positive/negative toe at 3:43 is backwards. I'm an ASE-certified alignment tech for over 30 years and I was once a chassis engineer for Honda. Positive toe is "toe-in" (fronts of tires pointed toward each other). Negative toe is "toe-out". Your spec sheet you showed even confirmed it which gave a positive toe spec (most factory cars have positive toe-in specified for front tires). Your descriptions during the video seemed to indicate you knew which way your alignment angles needed to be regardless of how you defined it earlier in the video. Otherwise, outstanding how-to video. PS: love the ratchet strap technique for centering steering wheel, I will use that ;)
Thank you so much! I think I will try doing this on my car. Took it to alignment to a shop and they left the wheel crooked, said they couldn't get it straight. (???) Think they just took my money and didn't actually touch the car. This is why I hate taking my car to a shop, you never know what has actually been done to it. Better do it myself.
The wheel usually gets crooked because they make an adjustment, then don't bother checking the wheel to see if it moved. They could absolutely get it straight, just too lazy.
Nice video. One issue I have is the camber measurement you suggest. The bottom of the tire will squish out when loaded. I have always used the straight edge forward or backward from the wheel centerline.
CJ is correct. Understanding this is a string alignment and understanding the type of rear suspension (camber/toe affects each other) that being said even in this type of alignment one should correct rear camber then toe...then reset strings to rim or hub because camber adjustment can affect hub distance (in or out). Then same with front. I also wonder if European definitions of negative or positive toe is different from US definitions. I was always taught and read (U.S.) that negative toe is toe out and positive is toe in.
Wow, I wish you could do every car repair video I ever watch. Excellent explanation, even stopped to clear up any question people might have of every detail. Thanks a lot!
Thanks so much for making this elaborate video. You can download an app on your phone to measure angle. So that means you can possibly measure the camber for free!
Make sure the PVC pipes are parallel to each other, too. Since you cut slots in them, each slot needs to be the same distance apart front to rear. If not, even though your strings side to side are the same measurement front to rear, it won't be square if the front and rear PVC pipes aren't parallel. I ran into this with my first alignment I did. I later had to go back and take measurements of everything all around the car to make it square. This took some time, but after that, all you need to know is the track width difference front to rear and one side doesn't even need to match the other which makes for a much quicker alignment next time.
@@bernardwarr4187 I did some more checks and they would have to be pretty far out from each other. You'd be able to tell by eye. This method should get you pretty close. At least within 1/16". The main thing is use the same measurements each time so you're at least consistent
Does it matter if you do the alignment with or without (With jack stands under the suspension for load) the wheels on, or are all the measurements relative regardless? It seems like a pain to have to move the string box, take a wheel off, adjust the tie rods (I have an Audi, the tie rods are at the top), then put everything back a retake measurements over and over again. Keeping the wheels off so you can reach the tire rods throughout the procedure makes more sense.
The toe measurements will be different. The hub is going to be maybe 6 inches in diameter while the wheel could be 18", so your measurement and precision would have to be that much more exact. In that case, if you measure 0.3mm of toe at the end of the 18" wheel, it would only be 0.1mm at the end of the 6" hub.
Firstly, you begin with aligning the caster (where applicable) and camber, as these will change the total toe. You start with the rear axle to establish and adjust the thrust line to match the centerline as closely as possible. Next, you align the front axle and finish with toe. Before calling it a day with toe, you must lock down the locknut or sleeve(a) and remeasure, as the end play in the threads can throw you off by as much as a millimeter per side. You are bright and have a nice shop. If you want to maximize success in this business, you should take a 3-5 day alignment course with an instructor who provides both theoretical training and practical, hands-on experience with real commercial-grade alignment equipment. Most major brands of alignment equipment offer such courses. If you’re into Minis and BMWs, I recommend the Hunter course, as they are the OEM provider of training and equipment and could offer you additional insight on the particular aspects of those vehicles. Once complete, you’ll likely throw away your ball of string.
@@brittanywright9646Bro, adjusting toe before camber and caster is like washing your car right before driving it on a rainy day-it’s a waste of time. Proper alignment sequencing is critical, and skipping steps or doing them out of order only creates more work in the end. Life’s too short.
@@veerod383 I don't disagree with you, but did you watch the entire video? He clearly states that when you adjust camber on the lower control arm it affects the toe so it should be done last, however when adjusting the camber with camber plates it does not affect toe and you can make adjustments after toe
@@brittanywright9646There is over a century of study on the subject by the auto industry. Here is a list of key SAE publications on wheel alignment: 1. “Motor-Vehicle Wheel-Alignment” (1923) 2. “Increased Quality through Static Wheel Alignment and Automatic Toe Setting” (1985) 3. “Computer Aided Control of Wheel Alignment” (1984) 4. “Estimating a Process Control Model of Vehicle Front Wheel Alignment” (1991) 5. “Evaluation of Dynamic Wheel Alignment Audit System Performance” (2019) 6. “Automobile Wheel Alignment and Wheel Balancing” (2021) This is just part of the library of knowledge which I draw references from in my daily activities over the last 30 years. For access to detailed studies, methodologies, and advancements in wheel alignment, you can explore SAE’s vast collection of technical papers and resources on the SAE MOBILUS platform: saemobilus.sae.org.
@@brittanywright9646 sorry not likely. The inability of having live readings simultaneously on all four corners to see the effects of movement leaves you blind. When you’re working with commercial grade equipment which is capable of 1/100th degree resolution you will understand.
Awesome video guys! Very well spoken. Awesome detail and guidance throughout the video. I really don't have any suggestions for improvement. You covered the items needed and method to make the tooling needed for the process. Explained the process well. Bravo guys! Well done!
"Positive Toe" (a.k.a. Toe-in) is when the "front" (leading-edges) of the tires are pointing towards each other if I'm not mistaken. You're saying the exact opposite (at around 3:40) At 17:00 you're still saying everything opposite (toe-in/toe-out), but then at 21:45 you seem to have switched your understanding.
Very useful video! My car is trailing to the left for some time now, and I was hesitating to take a look at the suspension myself because I would have to align it afterwards. I'll save this guide for later use!
This is definitely one that is worth a second watch to help better understand or catch some of the finite details Nate goes over. Hopefully you know more now than before watching it though!
So this is the 3rd video I've watched for a string alignment, and this one is by far the best. The only question I have for all the alignment videos.... Don't all of the measurements being accurate depend on your eyes reading from the exact same angle every time? That was a problem I was having. The angle I was looking at the tape for the front of the front tire had to be the exact same for the rear of the front tire. In other words, where my eyes were looking at the tape had to be exactly the same every time, front and back of the wheel. Go under and make the adjustments, then come back and somehow make sure I was looking at the tape exactly as I did the first time, or my measurements would be different, wouldn't they?
Angle of reading on a 2cm rule is barely going to affect your overall number. Maybe 1/10th of a MM difference. We can call this margin of error, and still be well within spec.
Aren't you getting your negative and positive toe mixed up. Negative toe = toe out and positive toe = toe in. Apart from that technicality great instructional video
Hi to time consuming, if l am at a race l just run the string Around the car get r/h towing dead strait and adjust the left front with about a 2 mill tow in and away we go ,cheers les from Adelaide south Australia
People are talking about various hacks for making turning steering effortless. Here’s what I did, albeit for replacing steering fluid, but for any purpose this works: Get some bubble-wrap, I happen to have the insulation stuff that’s particularly useful as it has both sides the same, foil-covered and flat. Just make sure the smooth sides are together, otherwise. I cut two pieces for each side, basically about the diameter of the tyre or wheel say, and square ish. You need a pair for each side. Ordinary grease, smear one side only cos it’s easier, of the mating faces, plop the two pieces together with the grease sandwiched, on the ground, where the front wheels can be rolled over it. NOTE…I have a front wheel drive car, and a small slope on my drive, so I drove the car forward of where I wanted it and let it roll back, then applied the handbrake only, to stop the car in position, with the front tyres as close to the middle of the greased bubble wrap squares as possible. I then shoved a couple of bricks hard under the rear wheels, because only the handbrake and rear wheels are holding the car locked in position now. That’s it. The steering will turn free as a bird. It meant for power steering fluid replacement, I could easily spin the wheels fully to lock right and left as the fluid gurgled through, but I will now be digging out this almost-free couple of devices, to help with the alignment. I swear, I expected the bubbles to pop, not a single one did. Weird, no?! Thanks for this vid, take care all.
Can I just check that you set the front wheels to have a toe in, I’m confused by the fact that you started saying toe out once you were adjusting it…? Really great video, thanks for the tutorial 👍
what about axle/spindle being square with the frame/body ?? what if car had the rear axle forward or rearward to canter line of frame/body ?? some confusing as you mixed toe in and toe out measurement. toe in should always be front of tire/rim on front or rear axle/spindle, measured from not shown center line string.
Awesome. I do all my own work to my car and have just eyeballing it enough to drive it somewhere. Almost lost me for the reasoning on the front with the tierod position at “about 60 to 70%” compared to the outside of the wheel
Quite a lot of work and materials. I do it using 2x4 or 2x3 wood. Mark the front and back using tire threads, adjust, move the car backwards and forward then measure again until the numbers match.
I’ve never heard of anyone calling toe in “negative” and toe out a “positive” measurement? Do you guys use measurements like SAI and Set Back to check for bent components also?
7 ° is too much. The antidive causes the Caster to increase in a turn on the inside nonloaded wheel. The outside loaded wheel does the opposite. Caster is set where both wheels change at equal caster angles at a given amount of body roll in a turn. This is great for roll steer. The rear springs equipped with underiders can be set to also roll steer in a beneficial way increasing traction in a turn. Body roll can be limited with heavier springs and roll bars front and rear.
Hey bro great video, I have got a 2005 C class kompressor auto w203 when you drive on smooth road dryers the car dryers at nice and smooth as butter, but on the front right wheel is a space saver and my problem is when I turn to the left putting weight on the right wheel the car will wobble slightly fishtail motion when I turn right putting the weight on to the good side it does not because I am on a bit of a budget at the would you think it will be ok to portchester second-hand parts provided they are tight at the rubber gaskets and if so after top of your head from what I've just described that wobbling motion it also happens if I go over speed ramp would you suggest to change in the area obviously I'm going to look and see if anything moves drastically and I can move it by hands goes without saying that will have to be changed I found the wheel that was took off and the tyre is worn out like crazy,
At 17:20 around that time stamp you basically said the wheels on the front are toe out by 3 degrees but if the back portion of the front wheel is longer than the front that would mean that what you meant to say was it’s toed in 😊 thanks for the refresher I’ll just do what I normally would do and not mix myself up any longer on this Friday lol
If the back of the wheel is further from the string, then it's set more in to the car. If the front is closer to the string, then it's set OUT from the car. It's toed out.
When making the parallel strings down each side I think you need to measure from the exact centre of the little hub cab in the centre of the wheel . If you measure from the wheel like you did it will not be accurate. Greased stainless plates under the tyres helps too. And don't measure camber from the tyres. Cut a piece of alloy channel at a correct length to touch on wheels only. just my 2 cents..
Several areas I like to address... 1. Lifting your car up and not rolling it afterward will affect the accuracy of your alignment. 2. This methodology, measuring center hubs, might not work for modified vehicles where the rear end is wider than the front. Now, going old school. For modified vehicles and antique cars. Using the same methodology, 4 jack stands and a string. Set you jack stands front and back, set your string front to back, center of the wheel, measure the distance (here is the difference), front and back of the rear tire from the string, makingsureitsthe exact same measure front and back of the rear tire. (When you do this, you establish a true track from your rear end.) Once this is done, then measure the back and front portion of the front tire to set your toe.
Since he's using the PVC pipe to hold the same distance between the strings It won't matter if the track width is different at the back. You're still going to end up with parallel strings when you measure the distance and it's equal on both sides.
Conversion Chart : fcpeuro.sirv.com/Content_Marketing/Degrees_To_MM.PNG
You could just use trigonometry.
Thanks 😊
Thanks. Is the diameter the "tire diameter" or the "wheel diameter"?
@@gustavette8487 wheel
@@douggolde7582 Yes measure actual diameter of wheel rim where measured, my cars 18 inch are actually 19 inch.
Very informative. Now all I need to make it easy is a full size lift in my house.
No... Have seen old guys do Stringing race cars with the car on a flat surface ( on a tar surface).
Trolly Jack is what they use to jack the car up to allow adjustments
I do it in the pits. Just have to jack up the car a tiny bit at the front to do adjustments
Video hasn't even started yet n I'm ctfu @ this comment 😆
@@gj91471 yo
😂😂😂
Good video! A couple things that I have found after doing my own string alignments:
Use 1" EMT conduit instead of the PVC. If the jack stands are placed in a different spot front or rear, there will be different flex, and that can alter the actual distance between the slots in the PVC. We are talking very small differences, but I can hold my measuring to .25 mm. I do my alignments outside, if the sun is beating on the front tubing but not the rear, with PVC, this could cause a difference between the slots. PVC expands and contracts at a rate much higher than steel. Even if this wouldn't be an issue for you, steel EMT would be much more stable and durable. Doing string alignments is all about eliminating variables. Use the thinnest hacksaw blade you can find and cut the slot by hand for best precision.
To hold the steering wheel, you can get a steering wheel holder for alignments on Amazon. Looks like a little guy with a red head. Works great and it's a lot easier to use.
I also use 50 lb test, .36mm diameter braided deep sea fishing line in bright yellow, it is very user friendly, doesn't knot up and tangle, yet it is easy to tie knots. It is highly visible so you don't bump it. And it holds a nice taught line with the weight without stretching.
Some manufacturers measure toe in as a positive # so be aware what your manufacturer is actually stating.
Here's a great toe conversion calculator: www.1728.org/toe-out.htm
Yes u' r right.BMW have positive toe and is in not out...
I found a cheap alternative to the Amazon steering wheel holder - the wife 😂. And she gets annoyed being called an Amazon...
thanks
Smart Man and smart comment.
A few years ago I thought of using this method and used a pair of slotted wood battens for the string end supports, this method is by far the most accurate way to make wheel alignment, you did an excellent job of showing how to set the system up, hope not to many people spotted the little mistake you made when cutting the second set of slots in the wrong side of the pipe :)
Lol I thought I was the only one who saw realised that didn't seem right
Im thinking of doing the same but rather than string would a screw not work butted up to the wheel rim? Running down both sides of the vehicle
Excellent video . Just one point, toe in is
positive and toe out is negative {3:43}
I've used both string aligning on my Camaro because it sits too low for me to try any other method but I used solid metal bars on each front wheel on my truck to set total toe. Technically you are correct but I think the guy is referring to the fact that doing the alignment by string method the way in which you measure it is backwards. If you were using bars on the wheels doing total toe measurement with 2 tape measures and say you were setting toe in then moral of the story is less you want a smaller measurement on the front tape measure vs the rear tape measure. But when your doing string alignments and setting toe in the number on the front edge of the rim on your measuring stick gets larger and the rear gets smaller because as the tires toe in they pull away from the string on the front since the string stays stationary that is set square and the rear of the tire or rim gets closer to the string. It's hard to explain but hopefully it makes sense.
@@DJWhitetailfluff Speaking in the same terms for something like this is important. In no world is toe-in "negative".
To me it don't matter because I know what he's talking about I just think a video is needed for a lot of ppl and to me it is what it is thank you tho u are correct 💯
The context about camber before toe at around the 31:00 mark actually goes for the front too. Camber (and front caster if adjustable) should always be done be done before toe at all 4 corners. Virtually every car out there will experience some degree of toe change when camber (and / or caster) is adjusted and thus toe should ALWAYS be the last thing you adjust and never the first (unless that is the only thing you are going to be making adjustments to.
Even with camber plate adjustment, many cars will experience a noticeable toe change because its a factor of knuckle / upright geometry and NOTHING to do with the chassis suspension pickup points.
Was just about to say something similar...
Yes, this is key!
Thanks for this
I just learned that I was doing it wrong for 20 years!!! You just made me a better tech. Thank you.
Hit up a "dollar store" and grab 8 cheap smooth thin cutting boards. Stack 2 of them, and stick them under each tire. Almost totally removes stiction when you're making adjustments. Sure, you could get fancy bearing plates - but then you wouldn't be watching a DIY vid! :)
Love to hear it!
I was thinking about metal plates and axle grease between the two but sounds even simpler!
@@PetuniatheGT350 me too
This is brilliant! I'm going to try it.
@@PetuniatheGT350 Overthinking it bruh
I've been doing string alignments for years! They are way better than a shop alignment which always gives you a crooked steering wheel.
Probably shop incompetence, typical when you have a "pro" do it. I recently had an alignment done on our old van and sure enough, the wheel is cocked at 11:30
I did alignment work for 25 years, I test drove everything, I made every effort to ensure my customers never complained of pulling, worn tires, or crooked steering wheels. Parking lot would be jam packed from open to close. Been 20 years since retirement, and customers still call for me.
@@r.weaver3769 Respect you you sir.
@@devonstrickland5640 Thank you, I miss the work, but truly miss the awesome customers I had.
@@r.weaver3769 string alignments? :) Sounds like you did an actual thorough job LOL.
First, Great instructional guys. After dealing with incompetent shops in my area that literally can't align your car unless it's 100% stock. I decided to do this my self. Glad I did, can confirm best alignment I've ever had on my Mazda 3.
One note for people like me with OCD, you can help compensate for human error during setup by making the distance between your bars significantly longer than the length of the car, if you have the room. Due to the relative length from the pivot points when making adjustments this let's you be more precise in twords the vehicle. Hopefully that made sense lo
Love it, Mike!
This doesn't really help because the measure points are still based on wheelbase and the accuracy of your ruler+naked eye. The wheelbase of the car is long enough so that the lateral movement of the front and rear bars can be manipulated precise enough with the dexterity of your hand. I.e. the change to the angle of the string is small enough to be precise.
Best tutorial of string alignment on the internet. Well done!
Thank you, my dad's 82 just had his MOT, they replaced his track rods but never did the alignment. Literally i confronted them, they told me they NEVER bothered, Disgusting i told him to report them to VOSA. I used to be a mechanic, i left to study Automotive Engineer. I didn't do the repairs because i was trained on a machine and didn't have the proper kit. I've never seen tracking done like this. It's makes sense your recreating the track bars, I'm going to sort it out for him. You can always learn a new way/trick. Thank you so much.
Happy to help - hopefully you get the 82 sorted!
Great explanation. Instead of taping and measuring threads on the tie rods, I think it’s easier to just make one full turn of the adjuster and then measure the change at the wheels. You only have to do it once per car and you get a precise measurement of the amount of toe in/out for each turn. Also, knowing that value, you can make quick toe adjustments at the track without having to restring.
if someone wanted to take the extra time to do that, thats a great idea!
This is a great tip for adjustments on the fly!
Great tip!
One of the best tutorials I have ever seen. Well done mate.
I had to replace both rear trailing arm bushings on my 2003 Volvo S40. I didn't want to spend any extra on alignment. Followed this method carefully. I am amazed at the results. Car now tracks as it should.
Only minor downside is adjusting the alignment without a lift can be time-consuming, as you may need to measure, jack up, adjust, lower, settle suspension and then measure again, several times!
If you have the option to get something the same heigh under all 4 tires, that helps!
Olfen that is what we love to hear! Now that you've done it once , it gets faster and easier each time after. Glad we were able to help
How much would the alignment costed you?
I am so proud that you uses millimeter ❤
Best string alignment video I have seen on youtube, thanks
Boy, I've watch A LOT of videos about toe lately and, after finally *getting it*, can't get over how many 'experts' and even expensive tools out there that aren't taking into account the possibility that one wheel's toe may be very different than the one opposite it. Those methods and tools just assume to measure the total distance between both tires and split that difference as the target. Sigh.🙄
Good job with the vid, and thanks for redeeming my faith in humanity.
Thanks for your video.
I’m a low budget UA-cam mechanic that depends on people like you.Makes total sense coming from a construction background.
We’ll explained.
Much love bro
Might be worth mentioning to release the rubber gator/boot clips on the tie rods when rotating as the twist associated will likely shorten their life. But a great instructional, thanks!
great tip!
When you set the string line up for the front, you have to measure from the CENTRE of the wheel (fore and aft), where you measured it, 3-4 inches fwd of the centre, you are setting the zero to any error that is already in place.
when you are spelling center the e goes before the r.
also fully spell forward. dont use fwd because that means "front wheel drive" since where talking about an automotive topic.
you're spelling things wrong and making it confusing to read.
@@darkshadowsx5949 UK/EU and many countries spell center as "centre". The e before the r is an American thing.
@@darkshadowsx5949 You used "where" when you should've used "we're"....LOL!
Thank you for the great effort on explaining this wheel alignment method, I do my car using this method of the fishing line around the car for toe adjustment and the angle finder for the front camber adjustment with camber bolts on the struts. Finding a perfect level ground is the challenge when one is doing this at home
It's nice to hear Blue from Rio explaining this to me. Clever bird.
when doing camber, try not to use the tyre as it bulges at the bottom, maybe 60psi would help negate this error, but get a flat bar the correct rim length for the DIYers
Absolutely! Hence Nate's note that tire is good, but wheel is better to get that camber measurement
Arent' we supposed to do camber adjustment first, then toe? The toe changes when camber changes.
@@ModMINI Caster, then camber, then toe.
@@fcpeuro Tire is not good
or just cut board correct
Thank you. A thorough, concise and totally professional tutorial for us DYI'ers. You've taught me so much with your channel, especially with my son's Volvo, his first car. We watch the videos together and proceed with confidence after FCP Euro's pro tutorials.
This is one of the best tutorial videos on the art of aligning the wheels on the car. Best of all, you don't need fancy equipment to do it either, just simple PVC pipes, strings, and angle finder from HomeDepot and the rest of the tools most people would already have it. Best of all, this method works even for a high precision race car like the VW R36, it will work for every cars, with the exception of the actual mechanisms to make the adjustments on the actual camber and toe in in each model. I had always had my cars aligned at the dealer because they have the factory specs for camber and toe in but I will likely use the procedure outlined here to check and adjust if necessary in the future. I could even use the method to check if the dealer actually did their job correctly on my cars. Great video and very well done!
How is the angle finder used?
To measure camber.
Great job! Best string method diy alignment video I have seen
Great video on alignment! I to am a suspension mechanic (old school) and started in the late 70's. To be honest I've never been in the racing type of alignment and like your explanation of different angle adjustments for different types of racing, suspensions and tires.
One thing I noticed about almost all alignment videos is that there is very little talk about SAI (KPI for us old timers) and Scrub Radius. One easy visual way to see it is a beginner DYI mechanic will tend to mount deep dish or heavily outer off set rims (tires sticking way out of fenders) but the pro mechanics keep more of a stock look meaning wheel assembly stays tucked in more under supervision and bearing load.
Basically that's Scrub Radius as you know.
Your thoughts or do you feel it's worth making a video on subject.
Aloha Zac
Thank You! This helps. My son and I truly need the means to get things back squared away on our own. We are always wrenching and 'set the toe and let it go' is NOT for us. Attention to Detail matters!!
Let us know how it goes once you give it a try GMAN ! Takes time and some patience but hey math is math at the end of the day!
WOW, thank you for this. I am going to save lots of money and know the work is done correctly.
Well, I dont have a 964 or 944 anymore. Only an American and Japanese car, i guess i dont have to worry about my alignment anymore since it only applies to Euro cars apparently 😊
On a serious note, good general advice for the DIYer :)
Finally a video that mentions the reference box needed to determine the body to wheel relationship. I see the string methods often use the body wheel wells to measure from, assuming the body can guide what straight really is, so as to not create a crab walk.
Excellent video. I did the alignement on my oldtimer lotus esprit using this method years ago, but this is the first video that explains things so clear. Thanks
I've been seeing race mechanics do this kind of work at Sepang circuit where I work for decades and I'm always curious how this string alignment work. Finally you've answer all my questions. Tq
This is a very comprehensive, well done description of the toe alignment process. I would, however, always do the camber adjustment first, as it will effect the toe. I know this is mentioned in the video, but should be stressed more highly, even to 5he point of showing the camber adjustment first.
Thanks for a great video.
Appreciate the note Arnold; much appreciated!
This is the kind of video I've been looking for. Great explanation! I'm going to try this on my car because it desperately needs it. You did an amazing job teaching how to do this! Thank you!
Its so refreshing to hear the word "milimeter" with US accent:-)
I agree that it's more accurate than shop alignment, much cheaper in the long run too, and you can do whatever you want, no risk of someone disagreeing with your decisions etc.
Excellent video, however, your description of positive/negative toe at 3:43 is backwards. I'm an ASE-certified alignment tech for over 30 years and I was once a chassis engineer for Honda. Positive toe is "toe-in" (fronts of tires pointed toward each other). Negative toe is "toe-out". Your spec sheet you showed even confirmed it which gave a positive toe spec (most factory cars have positive toe-in specified for front tires). Your descriptions during the video seemed to indicate you knew which way your alignment angles needed to be regardless of how you defined it earlier in the video. Otherwise, outstanding how-to video. PS: love the ratchet strap technique for centering steering wheel, I will use that ;)
Thank you so much! I think I will try doing this on my car. Took it to alignment to a shop and they left the wheel crooked, said they couldn't get it straight. (???) Think they just took my money and didn't actually touch the car. This is why I hate taking my car to a shop, you never know what has actually been done to it. Better do it myself.
The wheel usually gets crooked because they make an adjustment, then don't bother checking the wheel to see if it moved. They could absolutely get it straight, just too lazy.
😢
Thank you sir! I now know more about alignments than i ever did before.
Thank you so much for this video I didn't think I would find a video on alignment and you helped me so so much thank you thank you
This is great! I did something similar at home, but yours is better for sure. I’m getting the stuff to do this.
Fantastic vid. Thanks, and regards from the south side of the sound...
Thank you. I just successfully used your DIY Alignment Method on my Audi A4 B5.5 Quattro. Worked perfectly on the first try!
Nice video. One issue I have is the camber measurement you suggest. The bottom of the tire will squish out when loaded. I have always used the straight edge forward or backward from the wheel centerline.
CJ is correct. Understanding this is a string alignment and understanding the type of rear suspension (camber/toe affects each other) that being said even in this type of alignment one should correct rear camber then toe...then reset strings to rim or hub because camber adjustment can affect hub distance (in or out). Then same with front.
I also wonder if European definitions of negative or positive toe is different from US definitions.
I was always taught and read (U.S.) that negative toe is toe out and positive is toe in.
Excellent video, carefully and thoroughly explained.
Excellent presentation. Loved your detailed explanation of the estimated turns needed on tie rod vs the typical "give it a 1/2 turn and retest".
How I learned on the frame rack was woth string alignment. Then the new laser system frame rack came out! Thank you for this video
Wow, I wish you could do every car repair video I ever watch. Excellent explanation, even stopped to clear up any question people might have of every detail. Thanks a lot!
The notch and scale trick was amazing! 🙏🏽
Amazing video, thank you so much! The only thing is that on the spec it should be 0" 12' toe-in and then you setup 0" 12' toe-out
Thanks so much for making this elaborate video.
You can download an app on your phone to measure angle. So that means you can possibly measure the camber for free!
Great tip! Thank you for watching, James!
Make sure the PVC pipes are parallel to each other, too. Since you cut slots in them, each slot needs to be the same distance apart front to rear. If not, even though your strings side to side are the same measurement front to rear, it won't be square if the front and rear PVC pipes aren't parallel. I ran into this with my first alignment I did. I later had to go back and take measurements of everything all around the car to make it square. This took some time, but after that, all you need to know is the track width difference front to rear and one side doesn't even need to match the other which makes for a much quicker alignment next time.
Check corners with a set square or just card cut square.
It will not make any difference. The important thing is the 2 strings are parallel, in relation to the road wheels?
@@bernardwarr4187 I did some more checks and they would have to be pretty far out from each other. You'd be able to tell by eye. This method should get you pretty close. At least within 1/16". The main thing is use the same measurements each time so you're at least consistent
@@tcoffin014 agree, the main thing is the String must a parallel, then it’s down to the accuracy of the measurement
@@bernardwarr4187 they will not be parralel if all angles are not square.
This is going to save me some money. Two sports cars and multiple alignments a year. That’s almost a free set of tires! 🤙🏻
Does it matter if you do the alignment with or without (With jack stands under the suspension for load) the wheels on, or are all the measurements relative regardless? It seems like a pain to have to move the string box, take a wheel off, adjust the tie rods (I have an Audi, the tie rods are at the top), then put everything back a retake measurements over and over again. Keeping the wheels off so you can reach the tire rods throughout the procedure makes more sense.
The toe measurements will be different. The hub is going to be maybe 6 inches in diameter while the wheel could be 18", so your measurement and precision would have to be that much more exact. In that case, if you measure 0.3mm of toe at the end of the 18" wheel, it would only be 0.1mm at the end of the 6" hub.
@@Daschickenify So I guess it would be relative . For example 0 toe is 0 toe in both instances regardless(?).
Thku for the great info however I was told my. RAV4 read chamber couldn't be adjusted cause shim are no longer sold what can you tell me
Firstly, you begin with aligning the caster (where applicable) and camber, as these will change the total toe. You start with the rear axle to establish and adjust the thrust line to match the centerline as closely as possible. Next, you align the front axle and finish with toe. Before calling it a day with toe, you must lock down the locknut or sleeve(a) and remeasure, as the end play in the threads can throw you off by as much as a millimeter per side.
You are bright and have a nice shop. If you want to maximize success in this business, you should take a 3-5 day alignment course with an instructor who provides both theoretical training and practical, hands-on experience with real commercial-grade alignment equipment. Most major brands of alignment equipment offer such courses. If you’re into Minis and BMWs, I recommend the Hunter course, as they are the OEM provider of training and equipment and could offer you additional insight on the particular aspects of those vehicles. Once complete, you’ll likely throw away your ball of string.
Bro, read the title: "At Home Alignment Made Easy". This is a video made for DIYers at home.
@@brittanywright9646Bro, adjusting toe before camber and caster is like washing your car right before driving it on a rainy day-it’s a waste of time. Proper alignment sequencing is critical, and skipping steps or doing them out of order only creates more work in the end. Life’s too short.
@@veerod383 I don't disagree with you, but did you watch the entire video? He clearly states that when you adjust camber on the lower control arm it affects the toe so it should be done last, however when adjusting the camber with camber plates it does not affect toe and you can make adjustments after toe
@@brittanywright9646There is over a century of study on the subject by the auto industry.
Here is a list of key SAE publications on wheel alignment:
1. “Motor-Vehicle Wheel-Alignment” (1923)
2. “Increased Quality through Static Wheel Alignment and Automatic Toe Setting” (1985)
3. “Computer Aided Control of Wheel Alignment” (1984)
4. “Estimating a Process Control Model of Vehicle Front Wheel Alignment” (1991)
5. “Evaluation of Dynamic Wheel Alignment Audit System Performance” (2019)
6. “Automobile Wheel Alignment and Wheel Balancing” (2021)
This is just part of the library of knowledge which I draw references from in my daily activities over the last 30 years.
For access to detailed studies, methodologies, and advancements in wheel alignment, you can explore SAE’s vast collection of technical papers and resources on the SAE MOBILUS platform: saemobilus.sae.org.
@@brittanywright9646 sorry not likely. The inability of having live readings simultaneously on all four corners to see the effects of movement leaves you blind. When you’re working with commercial grade equipment which is capable of 1/100th degree resolution you will understand.
You are very good at these, thanks for a great presentation and explanation!
Awesome video guys! Very well spoken. Awesome detail and guidance throughout the video. I really don't have any suggestions for improvement. You covered the items needed and method to make the tooling needed for the process. Explained the process well. Bravo guys! Well done!
Glad you approve Neil! Hopefully it helps a few people tackle the job/process themselves at home
"Positive Toe" (a.k.a. Toe-in) is when the "front" (leading-edges) of the tires are pointing towards each other if I'm not mistaken. You're saying the exact opposite (at around 3:40) At 17:00 you're still saying everything opposite (toe-in/toe-out), but then at 21:45 you seem to have switched your understanding.
Very useful video! My car is trailing to the left for some time now, and I was hesitating to take a look at the suspension myself because I would have to align it afterwards. I'll save this guide for later use!
You almost lost me a couple times but i think i got it! Very well done!
This is definitely one that is worth a second watch to help better understand or catch some of the finite details Nate goes over. Hopefully you know more now than before watching it though!
I understood about half of it, thanks.
So this is the 3rd video I've watched for a string alignment, and this one is by far the best. The only question I have for all the alignment videos.... Don't all of the measurements being accurate depend on your eyes reading from the exact same angle every time? That was a problem I was having. The angle I was looking at the tape for the front of the front tire had to be the exact same for the rear of the front tire. In other words, where my eyes were looking at the tape had to be exactly the same every time, front and back of the wheel. Go under and make the adjustments, then come back and somehow make sure I was looking at the tape exactly as I did the first time, or my measurements would be different, wouldn't they?
I agree, I Have watched several and I have found that this is the best
Angle of reading on a 2cm rule is barely going to affect your overall number. Maybe 1/10th of a MM difference. We can call this margin of error, and still be well within spec.
You will need to check the front bar again after adjusting the rear bar. The pivot point on the front is not on the wheel centre.
I found this to be very informative and very well presented……great job.
Aren't you getting your negative and positive toe mixed up. Negative toe = toe out and positive toe = toe in. Apart from that technicality great instructional video
Depends on manufacturer. BMWs need toe in, regardless of what its called.
Hi to time consuming, if l am at a race l just run the string Around the car get r/h towing dead strait and adjust the left front with about a 2 mill tow in and away we go ,cheers les from Adelaide south Australia
Take teo vice grips and clip the two pipes together on either end before making your cuts, it helps a bunch!
People are talking about various hacks for making turning steering effortless. Here’s what I did, albeit for replacing steering fluid, but for any purpose this works: Get some bubble-wrap, I happen to have the insulation stuff that’s particularly useful as it has both sides the same, foil-covered and flat. Just make sure the smooth sides are together, otherwise. I cut two pieces for each side, basically about the diameter of the tyre or wheel say, and square ish. You need a pair for each side. Ordinary grease, smear one side only cos it’s easier, of the mating faces, plop the two pieces together with the grease sandwiched, on the ground, where the front wheels can be rolled over it. NOTE…I have a front wheel drive car, and a small slope on my drive, so I drove the car forward of where I wanted it and let it roll back, then applied the handbrake only, to stop the car in position, with the front tyres as close to the middle of the greased bubble wrap squares as possible. I then shoved a couple of bricks hard under the rear wheels, because only the handbrake and rear wheels are holding the car locked in position now. That’s it. The steering will turn free as a bird. It meant for power steering fluid replacement, I could easily spin the wheels fully to lock right and left as the fluid gurgled through, but I will now be digging out this almost-free couple of devices, to help with the alignment. I swear, I expected the bubbles to pop, not a single one did. Weird, no?! Thanks for this vid, take care all.
Can I just check that you set the front wheels to have a toe in, I’m confused by the fact that you started saying toe out once you were adjusting it…?
Really great video, thanks for the tutorial 👍
what about axle/spindle being square with the frame/body ?? what if car had the rear axle forward or rearward to canter line of frame/body ?? some confusing as you mixed toe in and toe out measurement. toe in should always be front of tire/rim on front or rear axle/spindle, measured from not shown center line string.
On 18:25 don't you mean 1mm toe in instead of out since the rear tires is at 83 & 84?
Awesome. I do all my own work to my car and have just eyeballing it enough to drive it somewhere. Almost lost me for the reasoning on the front with the tierod position at “about 60 to 70%” compared to the outside of the wheel
Quite a lot of work and materials. I do it using 2x4 or 2x3 wood. Mark the front and back using tire threads, adjust, move the car backwards and forward then measure again until the numbers match.
Is this more accurate if you put it up on jackstands and do it with the wheels off
Great information, thank you for sharing!
A really excellent explanation on how to set toe and camber, which I shall follow. Thank you.
I’ve never heard of anyone calling toe in “negative” and toe out a “positive” measurement?
Do you guys use measurements like SAI and Set Back to check for bent components also?
im confused, @3:30 he said: Negative Toe means wheels are toed in
Every else:
Positive Toe →Toe-in
Negative Toe →Toe-out
@@nedudki ive only ever know toe out> positive (like, lets say +1 mm), and toe i, negative (-1 mm)
Hello sir. What if rear wheels are wider than front wheel.do we still you the same method? Thank you
great video, great explanation!!! thank you.
Question: when you had 4mm toe on the front drivers side, why did you move both tie rods 2 and 2mm and not just to front rod 4mm??? thanks
Really nice video on race car alignment ..
Best diy alignment video!
Appreciate it motofan16 !
i agree!
Great. I like to do realignment after beginners.
Talking about easy and user friendly, u should be a teacher. So clear and easy to learn. Thank you. Please make more video
Toe out is negative and toe in is positive, not the other way around. Other than that great video.
It is very helpful. Thank you.
7 ° is too much. The antidive causes the Caster to increase in a turn on the inside nonloaded wheel. The outside loaded wheel does the opposite. Caster is set where both wheels change at equal caster angles at a given amount of body roll in a turn. This is great for roll steer. The rear springs equipped with underiders can be set to also roll steer in a beneficial way increasing traction in a turn. Body roll can be limited with heavier springs and roll bars front and rear.
Very informative. Is just a shame my driveway isn’t level so I can’t measure/adjust camber.
Easy solution. Do it at a place with a level surface.
Hey bro great video, I have got a 2005 C class kompressor auto w203 when you drive on smooth road dryers the car dryers at nice and smooth as butter, but on the front right wheel is a space saver and my problem is when I turn to the left putting weight on the right wheel the car will wobble slightly fishtail motion when I turn right putting the weight on to the good side it does not because I am on a bit of a budget at the would you think it will be ok to portchester second-hand parts provided they are tight at the rubber gaskets and if so after top of your head from what I've just described that wobbling motion it also happens if I go over speed ramp would you suggest to change in the area obviously I'm going to look and see if anything moves drastically and I can move it by hands goes without saying that will have to be changed I found the wheel that was took off and the tyre is worn out like crazy,
Is thrust angle not a thing when using the string method?
At 17:20 around that time stamp you basically said the wheels on the front are toe out by 3 degrees but if the back portion of the front wheel is longer than the front that would mean that what you meant to say was it’s toed in 😊 thanks for the refresher I’ll just do what I normally would do and not mix myself up any longer on this Friday lol
If the back of the wheel is further from the string, then it's set more in to the car. If the front is closer to the string, then it's set OUT from the car. It's toed out.
Great video! One question where the conversion chart for secs to measurement conversion?
I am looking for the chart also.
@@peterlworth fcpeuro.sirv.com/Content_Marketing/Degrees_To_MM.PNG
i was always curious as how accurate that method vs shop alignment machine: is it "close enough" or you get it 100% to spec? ty
When making the parallel strings down each side I think you need to measure from the exact centre of the little hub cab in the centre of the wheel . If you measure from the wheel like you did it will not be accurate. Greased stainless plates under the tyres helps too. And don't measure camber from the tyres. Cut a piece of alloy channel at a correct length to touch on wheels only. just my 2 cents..
...and buy a caliper. What's this ruler nonsense?
Excellent class question where can I download that conversion chart that information would also be helpful thank you
We have it as the pinned comment Nigel! Thanks for watching
Thank you sir for the information much gratitude
Several areas I like to address...
1. Lifting your car up and not rolling it afterward will affect the accuracy of your alignment.
2. This methodology, measuring center hubs, might not work for modified vehicles where the rear end is wider than the front.
Now, going old school. For modified vehicles and antique cars. Using the same methodology, 4 jack stands and a string. Set you jack stands front and back, set your string front to back, center of the wheel, measure the distance (here is the difference), front and back of the rear tire from the string, makingsureitsthe exact same measure front and back of the rear tire. (When you do this, you establish a true track from your rear end.) Once this is done, then measure the back and front portion of the front tire to set your toe.
Since he's using the PVC pipe to hold the same distance between the strings It won't matter if the track width is different at the back. You're still going to end up with parallel strings when you measure the distance and it's equal on both sides.
But what if the rear tires don't have zero toe? Your method ASSUMES zero toe in the rear :(