Imagine rising from being a drunken mayor of a small town, to becoming the highest ranked official in the state of Shu, recommended by Kongming himself. What a career.
i just realized how Liu Biao had accidentally done a solid for Liu Bei: by turning Jing province into a scholar hotspot, Liu Biao had gathered many of the talents of Shu Han in one place, allowing Liu Bei to have easy access to those much-needed talents. Once the Jing talents slowly died out, Shu Han court started to suffer greatly
Jiang Wan seemed to be a civil genius in a time when Shu-Han needed a military genius. But then not even Zhuge Liang could overcome the logistical nightmares of the Northern Expeditions.
nah, you always need a civil genius no matter what situation, since a military genius without strong backing in terms of supply/troops can't achieve anything (like how Hannibal campaign in Italy failed despite 3 stunning victories because he lacked the support from Carthage)
Shu got both blessed and Cursed, It have very capable administrator leading the court but lackluster in talented general, if it were peace time Shu would have prosper greatly but the opposite situation happen
Interesting to see that the emperor himself was also (to a certain degree) aware of the need to expand to survive, whenever I see depictions of him, the idea of attacking Wei is always suggested by someone.
While Zhuge Liang's picks weren't always perfect, when it came to a good mind for bureacuracy he always had the right man. As others have noted in the comments, as long as Liu Shan had these men by his side, the state was secure. We often take for granted how important good people are to have next to the levers of power to gently guide them and that stands even more true in this case. As, I'm sure we will see in another series (and likely by the end of this one) what happens when those with self-serving goals reach high station.
A possible suggestion for a future character deep dive, could you please consider doing one on Jiang Wei? His history from early life, defection to Shu and eventually as Zhuge Liang's successor, sounds like it'd be interesting for you to cover. Especially given Jiang Wei's mixed reputation, I'd be very interested to hear your take!
Always delightful to have some of that civil servant goodness. Always a fan of the ancient Civil Servant, albeit I would still rank Fei Yi as a clear favorite to look forward to in this series. With so many interesting minor characters in the Romance of the three kingdoms, that are civil servants. I personally would always flag for Fu Gan, Wang Xiu and Ma Liang as impressive minor characters who leave an impression despite their minor appearances in the entire Three Kingdoms (and legacy into Sima/Jin period). Ma Liang in particular always brings a hint of sorrow, his letter to Zhuge Liang, along with his far too soon death at the age of 35, is particularly brutal. And it would be remiss of me to not flag the four of Liu Bei's best propergandists/supporter of his early rise, Mi Zhu, Jian Yong, Sun Qian and Yi Ji (Damnit TW: Three Kingdoms for leaving him out!). All far too interesting characters doing ALOT of heavy lifting outside of the written word.
Had Jiang Wan's attack plan against the Shang Yong region already been successfully executed at the time of Han Zhong's campaign? Wasn't this the region that Meng Da controlled before switching sides? If it was done in the past, why would it be so difficult at this point that Zhuge Liang would even consider the possibility? (Since he attacked the north five times and never took that route). Thank you for the video, I hope that friends of the channel do a speedrun on the likes in this series like we did with Sima Yi's coup d'état and that you are forced to increase the goal. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Attacking Shangyong from Hanzhong without proper cover from the Jing province could be disastrous as it is practically a do or die situation. Note the only time they launched an attack on Shangyong from Hanzhong was when Liu Feng attacked it in co junction with Meng Da who attacked it from the southern Jing province commanderies.
@historian252 Thank you for your answer. It is, as you said, Mr. Serious has answered my question in the Han Zhong campaign series, video 4. It happened exactly as you described in your comment. I will leave the link for the video if someone has the same question as I did. His explanation starts at 3:54 of this video: m.ua-cam.com/video/ZAjv52Fldrw/v-deo.html&pp=ygUhU2VyaW91cyB0cml2aWEgaGFuIHpob25nIGNhbXBhaWdu
It’s kinda funny that attacking from Hanzhong is viewed as a bad idea realistically since while playing RoTK, Shangyong is far easier to attack honzhong from than it is to attack from TianShui/ChangAn.
@emperormaxwell432 Like invading Jing from Yong An (like Liu Bei tried in Yi Ling campaign). It is usually a hard battle, easy for the defenders, and that demands a lot of supplies.
What ended up happening to the Liu princes of the time? I know of Liu Chong and his fate. What of the others? Did they just stay where they were and eventually got thier posessions taken by Cao Wei?
Yes Cao Cao abolish most of the princedoms in 206. The last Liu princedom I believe is the princedom of Langya which was ended in 217 when Cao Cao executed the prince for treason.
@@SeriousTrivia thanks for the answer. I really enjoy your lets talk lore series. The historical events you explain are often more interesting to me than the romance version I grew up to know. Another question if you don't mind, after the abolishment, did those princes migrate maybe to Shu or just stay put and accepted the new norm?
you stay where you are, when the princedom is stripped it just means they no longer receive annual tax income as dictated by their titles. It doesn't really affect them that much other than that. Han Princedoms did not give the prince any administrative power. It was more or less a luxury house arrest setup where you get some land that you call your princedom. You are not allowed to leave this princedom unless you get approval from the court. The court will send a chancellor to administer the princedom and you just sit there, live your life, and collect the taxes associated with your title and that was yet. So abolishing them just means you no longer get those taxes any more.
One thing I don't get is that Emperor Liu Shan is always portrayed as well... an idiot but everything he's done since the Northern expeditions is... listen to the person on the ground report and say "i need this" and then he does it... so uhhh color me confused
That's exactly his problem. In my eyes he's not a terrible ruler, he's a sage compared to people like Cao Shuang or Sun Hao. However, he has a tendency to listen to bad advisors such as Huang Hao or Qiao Zhou. Even then he still exercises some independence like in the final days of Shu, he originally wants to fight and resist Wei to the bitter end but is persuaded to surrender by Qiao Zhou
It most likely meant to serve as a warning as the romanticization is a bit didactic, the later chapters are borderline unreadable due to how pathetic the three kingdom fell but it to contrast with the heroics of its rise. Good virtue and values are replace by bad virtue and they all collapse into the Jin dynasty and well we know how that went. In reality if you think about it, Liu Shan submitting was the sensible thing to do avoiding bloodshed and reuniting a greater china however he suppose inherit the "legitimate" empire and instead of fighting out like a hero he gave up like a coward. China going into a dark age didn't help his reputation most think a stable state like Shu Han or Cao Wei would have most likely had a better result.
He is definitely not as bad of a ruler as people think he is, but he is also not that underrated, given what comes next, you'll see that him being easily manipulated led to the end of Shu-Han
I suspect partly because he surrendered in the end which undermines his achievements. While it seems to me his good qualities seem to the self-awareness to have more capable men get on with what they are good at and not to interfere too much and to listen and learn from their advice, which it is both an underrated quality in a leader (to know ones limits and not to micro im doesn't exactly capture the imagine after all) and one by its very nature robs oneself of the glory and can easily be attributed to those capable men.
Whoa!! Didn’t his disciple jiang wei get the job? Never heard a this guy 😮 Feels like zhuge liang just wanted someone with a chip on his shoulder so he would need to prove himself with good works
Qin used a multiple prime minister system for the court. The Han changed it to grand excellencies at the top and did away with the prime minister title but from time to time, individuals with massive control of the court would bring the title back (like Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang)
They didn’t do very much and Yan Baihu we already talked about in Sun Ce’s series. Literally were gentry clans in the south that didn’t want to pay taxes so became shanyue bandits and then when Sun Ce came, he tried to ask for a surrender, got his brother killed, lost battle and was chased away before killed.
So very little is recorded about what he did personally. We know a bit about how he took over the black mountain bandits and then it’s just generic information about black mountain bandits incursions which were not led by him personally. Constant war with Yuan Shao then surrender to Cao Cao, getting titles to become a good vassal
That is one reason and also Ma Liang was never ranked that highly even when he was alive (although if he didn’t die at Yiling he might have reached higher positions)
About the statue,my wild guess is 2nd. since Jiang Wan is the second PM.😅 also,why is the PM title itself considered rare during that time? Is it because its newly invented during Shu-Han time or? 🤔
Qin Dynasty used a prime minister title system (actually multiple prime ministers). By the Han, it was changed to grand excellencies for the most part but from time to time there would be someone who take on the prime minister title in rare occasions (like Cao Cao for example)
Zhuge Liang: “Hey can we get Zhang Yi back?”
Sun Quan: “who tf even is that?”
Liu Bei nearly executing Jiang Wan for being drunk and sleeping on the job had to be the scariest moment for Jiang Wan.
Imagine rising from being a drunken mayor of a small town, to becoming the highest ranked official in the state of Shu, recommended by Kongming himself. What a career.
i just realized how Liu Biao had accidentally done a solid for Liu Bei: by turning Jing province into a scholar hotspot, Liu Biao had gathered many of the talents of Shu Han in one place, allowing Liu Bei to have easy access to those much-needed talents. Once the Jing talents slowly died out, Shu Han court started to suffer greatly
Jiang Wan: “I exist. Shu exists. This state affairs shall continue.” Thanks for the video
Jiang Wan seemed to be a civil genius in a time when Shu-Han needed a military genius. But then not even Zhuge Liang could overcome the logistical nightmares of the Northern Expeditions.
nah, you always need a civil genius no matter what situation, since a military genius without strong backing in terms of supply/troops can't achieve anything (like how Hannibal campaign in Italy failed despite 3 stunning victories because he lacked the support from Carthage)
Shu got both blessed and Cursed,
It have very capable administrator leading the court but lackluster in talented general, if it were peace time Shu would have prosper greatly but the opposite situation happen
Interesting to see that the emperor himself was also (to a certain degree) aware of the need to expand to survive, whenever I see depictions of him, the idea of attacking Wei is always suggested by someone.
While Zhuge Liang's picks weren't always perfect, when it came to a good mind for bureacuracy he always had the right man. As others have noted in the comments, as long as Liu Shan had these men by his side, the state was secure. We often take for granted how important good people are to have next to the levers of power to gently guide them and that stands even more true in this case. As, I'm sure we will see in another series (and likely by the end of this one) what happens when those with self-serving goals reach high station.
A possible suggestion for a future character deep dive, could you please consider doing one on Jiang Wei? His history from early life, defection to Shu and eventually as Zhuge Liang's successor, sounds like it'd be interesting for you to cover. Especially given Jiang Wei's mixed reputation, I'd be very interested to hear your take!
Jiang Wei’s Northern Expeditions is lined up for the next Shu related series
Always delightful to have some of that civil servant goodness. Always a fan of the ancient Civil Servant, albeit I would still rank Fei Yi as a clear favorite to look forward to in this series. With so many interesting minor characters in the Romance of the three kingdoms, that are civil servants. I personally would always flag for Fu Gan, Wang Xiu and Ma Liang as impressive minor characters who leave an impression despite their minor appearances in the entire Three Kingdoms (and legacy into Sima/Jin period).
Ma Liang in particular always brings a hint of sorrow, his letter to Zhuge Liang, along with his far too soon death at the age of 35, is particularly brutal.
And it would be remiss of me to not flag the four of Liu Bei's best propergandists/supporter of his early rise, Mi Zhu, Jian Yong, Sun Qian and Yi Ji (Damnit TW: Three Kingdoms for leaving him out!). All far too interesting characters doing ALOT of heavy lifting outside of the written word.
Regarding the trivia question, I've got no idea, but I remember seeing them in person! Very cool and beautiful statues, full of color.
So crazy how a talent like this almost get executed.
can you do ratings potrait character between ROTK13 & Total war three kingdoms
Like judge art??? I am going to pass
Had Jiang Wan's attack plan against the Shang Yong region already been successfully executed at the time of Han Zhong's campaign? Wasn't this the region that Meng Da controlled before switching sides? If it was done in the past, why would it be so difficult at this point that Zhuge Liang would even consider the possibility? (Since he attacked the north five times and never took that route).
Thank you for the video, I hope that friends of the channel do a speedrun on the likes in this series like we did with Sima Yi's coup d'état and that you are forced to increase the goal. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Attacking Shangyong from Hanzhong without proper cover from the Jing province could be disastrous as it is practically a do or die situation. Note the only time they launched an attack on Shangyong from Hanzhong was when Liu Feng attacked it in co junction with Meng Da who attacked it from the southern Jing province commanderies.
@historian252 Thank you for your answer. It is, as you said, Mr. Serious has answered my question in the Han Zhong campaign series, video 4. It happened exactly as you described in your comment. I will leave the link for the video if someone has the same question as I did. His explanation starts at 3:54 of this video:
m.ua-cam.com/video/ZAjv52Fldrw/v-deo.html&pp=ygUhU2VyaW91cyB0cml2aWEgaGFuIHpob25nIGNhbXBhaWdu
@@quicochines7492 No problem.
It’s kinda funny that attacking from Hanzhong is viewed as a bad idea realistically since while playing RoTK, Shangyong is far easier to attack honzhong from than it is to attack from TianShui/ChangAn.
@emperormaxwell432 Like invading Jing from Yong An (like Liu Bei tried in Yi Ling campaign). It is usually a hard battle, easy for the defenders, and that demands a lot of supplies.
What ended up happening to the Liu princes of the time? I know of Liu Chong and his fate. What of the others? Did they just stay where they were and eventually got thier posessions taken by Cao Wei?
Yes Cao Cao abolish most of the princedoms in 206. The last Liu princedom I believe is the princedom of Langya which was ended in 217 when Cao Cao executed the prince for treason.
@@SeriousTrivia thanks for the answer. I really enjoy your lets talk lore series. The historical events you explain are often more interesting to me than the romance version I grew up to know.
Another question if you don't mind, after the abolishment, did those princes migrate maybe to Shu or just stay put and accepted the new norm?
you stay where you are, when the princedom is stripped it just means they no longer receive annual tax income as dictated by their titles. It doesn't really affect them that much other than that. Han Princedoms did not give the prince any administrative power. It was more or less a luxury house arrest setup where you get some land that you call your princedom. You are not allowed to leave this princedom unless you get approval from the court. The court will send a chancellor to administer the princedom and you just sit there, live your life, and collect the taxes associated with your title and that was yet. So abolishing them just means you no longer get those taxes any more.
I'm going to make a wild guess and say his statue is third.
lets goo we been doing too much wei need more shu
Did the romance story take Jiang Wans historical account, and adapt it to Pang Tong, or do they both have similar stories?
Now that you mention it, very interesting, the situations involving them are identical.
Yes the drunk story draws inspiration from this
I like this subject
One thing I don't get is that Emperor Liu Shan is always portrayed as well... an idiot but everything he's done since the Northern expeditions is... listen to the person on the ground report and say "i need this" and then he does it... so uhhh color me confused
It's mostly because later on he was influenced by the eunuch Huang Hao and made very poor decisions that let Wei to conquer Shu.
people mostly dog on Liu Shan because he said the whole "i do not miss shu" thing to Sima Zhao after losing Shu
Liu Shan was carrying the kingdom on his back but they needed to push the blame on him for the fall of Shu.
That's exactly his problem. In my eyes he's not a terrible ruler, he's a sage compared to people like Cao Shuang or Sun Hao. However, he has a tendency to listen to bad advisors such as Huang Hao or Qiao Zhou.
Even then he still exercises some independence like in the final days of Shu, he originally wants to fight and resist Wei to the bitter end but is persuaded to surrender by Qiao Zhou
It most likely meant to serve as a warning as the romanticization is a bit didactic, the later chapters are borderline unreadable due to how pathetic the three kingdom fell but it to contrast with the heroics of its rise. Good virtue and values are replace by bad virtue and they all collapse into the Jin dynasty and well we know how that went.
In reality if you think about it, Liu Shan submitting was the sensible thing to do avoiding bloodshed and reuniting a greater china however he suppose inherit the "legitimate" empire and instead of fighting out like a hero he gave up like a coward. China going into a dark age didn't help his reputation most think a stable state like Shu Han or Cao Wei would have most likely had a better result.
Liu shan seems to be decent ruler why is he always written of as a bad ruler
I think it to push the narrative of Zhuge Liang carrying the entire State of Shu Han
He is definitely not as bad of a ruler as people think he is, but he is also not that underrated, given what comes next, you'll see that him being easily manipulated led to the end of Shu-Han
I suspect partly because he surrendered in the end which undermines his achievements. While it seems to me his good qualities seem to the self-awareness to have more capable men get on with what they are good at and not to interfere too much and to listen and learn from their advice, which it is both an underrated quality in a leader (to know ones limits and not to micro im doesn't exactly capture the imagine after all) and one by its very nature robs oneself of the glory and can easily be attributed to those capable men.
Felt too rushed of an episode, were the records of later shu han so brief?
Lack of a historical department which led to a lot of information going unspoken.
records is always going to be terse
All courts had historians but every word is precise
Did Shu ever try to invade Shangyong or Weixing again after the 219 takeover and the Xincheng rebellion?
no. It’s would be a one way trip since you can’t sail back upstream
I google the answer😁, should be No.9
But I really visited the place in 2007 and kept entrance ticket and pamphlet till now.
Whoa!! Didn’t his disciple jiang wei get the job? Never heard a this guy 😮
Feels like zhuge liang just wanted someone with a chip on his shoulder so he would need to prove himself with good works
Nope not until Fei Yi’s death would Jiang Wei get military control but never court control
Its time.
Why was the Prime Minister position rarely used? What difference is the PM position compared to things such as Chancellor or shang shu ling?
Qin used a multiple prime minister system for the court. The Han changed it to grand excellencies at the top and did away with the prime minister title but from time to time, individuals with massive control of the court would bring the title back (like Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang)
Hey Serious Trivia, Is there any chance of a Let's Talk Lore series on the two existing bandits Zhang Yan or Yan Baihu?
They didn’t do very much and Yan Baihu we already talked about in Sun Ce’s series. Literally were gentry clans in the south that didn’t want to pay taxes so became shanyue bandits and then when Sun Ce came, he tried to ask for a surrender, got his brother killed, lost battle and was chased away before killed.
I see but what about Zhang Yan the leader of the Black Mountain bandits?
So very little is recorded about what he did personally. We know a bit about how he took over the black mountain bandits and then it’s just generic information about black mountain bandits incursions which were not led by him personally. Constant war with Yuan Shao then surrender to Cao Cao, getting titles to become a good vassal
Hint: NEVER ask Sun Ce to split Jiang Dong in two. It isn't going to end well....
I kinda suprise ma liang and yi ji not included in 4 minister maybe they dead before empire established so not included
That is one reason and also Ma Liang was never ranked that highly even when he was alive (although if he didn’t die at Yiling he might have reached higher positions)
🔥
About the statue,my wild guess is 2nd. since Jiang Wan is the second PM.😅 also,why is the PM title itself considered rare during that time? Is it because its newly invented during Shu-Han time or? 🤔
Qin Dynasty used a prime minister title system (actually multiple prime ministers). By the Han, it was changed to grand excellencies for the most part but from time to time there would be someone who take on the prime minister title in rare occasions (like Cao Cao for example)
@@SeriousTrivia right. I totally forgot Cao Cao held once the post too 😅
Heyy