I think your core example is missing one crucial point: You took 1,000 damage and are now dead. Yeah, sure, you may say, "You need other items like Jade Elephant to make it good," but we can't sit here and act like taking 1,000 damage to dish back out 1,000 damage to enemies who often gain health pools within the tens to hundreds of thousands if not more, even if I deal 10k to those enemies, by the time that becomes a significant chance to proc, it's nearly useless. And yeah, sure, niche item, but let's put this into perspective. Armor Piercing Rounds Bison Steak Cautious Slug Crowbar Delicate Watch Gasoline Lens-Makers Medkit Monster Tooth Opal Goat Hoof Power Elixir Repulsion Armor Rusted Key Soldier's Syringe Topaz Brooch Tougher Times Tri-Tip That's a pretty significant amount of white items with something in common: are useful to most, if not all the Survivors in the game for being linearly stacking, statistical benefits, that make or break a run in the end. By comparison, Knockback Fin, Antler Shield, and Bolstering Lantern don't do that. Their effects are more things to build around, not to help build towards something else. Razorwire constitutes a build on its own. Not to compare effectiveness or uniqueness, but more to compare that many Green items end up more niche than White ones on a regular basis. This is not for the sake of balance! This is for the sake of many people's fun and enjoyment of the core experience. I love the maps of SotS, the Survivors are fun, and the new boss can be difficult to complete but fun to attempt. That being said, I like RoR2's core experience. I don't like getting terrible items that serve me no purpose unless I explicitly build around them as a White, as opposed to items that get me started and going. Maybe Elusive Antlers wasn't the right call, but I for one don't find Antler Shield fun, because if I end up finding them, it's highly probable I'm getting something that on most Survivors is not feasible to build around. By comparison, the most niche White items are Focus Crystal and Bungus, which both have niche applications for only one to four or five Survivors. But even those two items offer a consistent, stable statistical benefits that places them in line with the rest. The DLC added multiple new Whites with niche applications, underwhelming effects, and bad existing synergies. Starting a proc chain scarcely counts because by the time it can do anything significant for most, you already have something else that does more.
@@reeses7839 Okay hold up this argument is wrong on the first sentence: Antler shield doesn't take any reductions in to account for the reflection. You only need SOME defensive items to make that 1000 damage taken not kill you. This is the part a lot of you are missing. It's not primarily a damage item, it's a "turns defense in to offense" item. It's entirely garbage if ALL you have is ukes, glasses, syringe, bands, chronic expansion, etc.
THIS IS NOT A JAB AT RND, I LOVE THE GUY This is just trying it be a complete, 100%, as little biased as possible and as purely constructive criticism, not tyring to be hateful, not trying to be mad, just trying to break it down and think about it critically 2:09 You have 10 antler shields, you get hit with 1k damage and you theoretically don't die You have atleast 1 lens makers to be able to feasibly crit with it, which is a 1 in 10 for 2k damage You have a crowbar for it to deal 3.5k damage It *can* also proc an atg as before mentioned for a combined total of 14k damage If you have these set of 12 items, you would need to proc that 10% crit chance into that 3% atg which is in total a *0.3% chance* Ok let's say have a set of 10 antler shields and 10 lens makers and an atg, the chances of getting that 14k damage is still 3% chance *per getting hit* and it will never actually scale without other items, nearly every single thing in the game will passively scale off of your levels to a very hidden but extremely important extent but antler shield will never scale with it, only with the damage of the enemies, and before you even get hit for 1k damage you'd have to atleast be on stage 5 or above And this makes 2:35 really, really weird. Yes, characters with no items cannot on avarage do a thousand damage but you are putting a random level 1 character with no items against a 12 item combo with a 0.3% chance of occurring that's late enough in the run to take 1k damage and live, and you will break all watches too btw! which just makes this a gaint strawman argument of facing off a caughing baby against a full grown pitbull with guns 2:55 is just flat out wrong, yea, we have movement speed items but what we can see Elusive antlers doing is completely unique and there is nothing like it in the game. It is completely seperate in its source from monster tooth and it has its own unique thing to give it its effectiveness other then the flat out bonus of nearly all movement speed items 3:04 "we need more movement speed items" is not in any way correlated to the "antler shield and razorwire are the same" argument, it is in its own bubble around the item pool balance and the ladder exists as a counter argument to the opinion of antler shield being it's own unique and special nieche nothing else does and is not affiliated with former and vice versa 3:15 is just nonsensical. You say it as a way of saying that antler shield and razor wire are not the same item because they function the same but at the same time completely disregard this sentiment for Elusive antlers, almost as if it comes out of some sort of bias 3:24 is just COMPLETELY dismissing and ignoring Elusive antlers entire thing and instead focusing on the tiny side effect of its passive speed increase 3:34 this is like, fair. I get this, but the reasons it's important is to make the game loop feel better and more well adjusted to the games landscape, if anything this is directly AGAINST min maxing the game, and ensuring that people that don't minmax can also have a consistent experience that is able to be won by playing well and making smart decisions. This being a paid dlc doesn't make it irrelevant, if anything it makes it worse that a paid expansions can make the game feel more unfair and unbalanced 4:22 if anything printers are the largest victim of this, they're one of the most fundamentally unique and satisfying mechanics in the game, both adding strategic player expression to the game as being an amazing way to scratch the itch of the players to just get soemthing *right*, that final part of the run you're missing or something to fully propel it forward, they are transformative and by adding stuff that will directly not have effect from its existence lessens those gratifying moments 4:28 the dlc thing is weird, I don't see how it excuses any part of this item and just covering it all as "a new mechanic should be in the dlc" is very weird to me personally as the fundamental concept and mechanic is repeated but you yourself disagree with this idea so it's not really something that I truly have a say in Argument of disabling the dlc or not buying it Is actually completely fair, like there really isn't anything to outright dismiss this or combat it, possibly the fact that it can way it down and it isn't really a part of any themeing but whatever tbh 5:39 Solo non competitive game =/= should need useless and unbalanced items that arnt fun either 5:45 this argument is admittedly usually delivered terribly, stuff happening from being hit can work well as some sort of a counter in damage or defense since you got hit (stealthkit/elixir) and this isn't incentivitising *to* get hit so its kind of a stinky argument, I agree, but if it isn't incentivicing it, it would as opposed to it, be some sort of counter to it or make it more forgiving which could be done by helping the player out in an offensive stand point but... It doesn't so that, and if it did it is extremely easy for it to be overtuned 6:21 banger argument actually! The game very much isn't balanced strictly around eclipse, as eclipse is balanced around the game and being able to enjoy the game how you want is objectively a good thing! Thumbs up 6:58 the reason this is very much different, is due to these defensive items having a job and strictly doing that job. Getting hit is punishing, that's what it is fundamentally and something like rose buckle is made to lessen that punishment and make it more forgiving, it isn't encouraging getting hit as much as letting the player walk away with a little bit of a cheek slap and saying to not do it again. Antler shield doesn't serve a unique purpose like that which will be used every time it needs to. Medkit is a great item because it heals when you get hit, which is when you need it! 7:20 (razor wire, all of this applies to razor wire) antler shield damage is utterly redundant because you're, well you're in power mode. Also I don't think the general consensus is that it's playing the game wrong, I haven't seen anyone say that and I know I'm less suseptible to stupid UA-cam comments saying stupid stuff because I'm not a youtubers, but I do spend a lot o hours every day in the commiunity and haven't seen this come up, sorry if it did because that's silly and dumb 8:04 damage items will increase your non antler shield damage more and more due to levels but will always be stagnant on antler shield. Idk you could say this about literally anything, damage items do make stuff deal more damage. 10:55 you are putting an antler shield with an enemy that deals 100 damage against a razor wire as level 1 commando. Then you crank it up to 1k damage taken where big issues arise because even though you've DRAMATICALLY scaled up the point in the run for antler shield, you do not apply the same bias to razor wire, you are treating them unevenly from a bias. But ya they are different that's fair thumbs up I agree 12:39 nearly all of the items here mentioned one after another are made entirely to lessen the punishment of getting hit while still having consequences, it is not incentivicing getting hit whatsoever 13:30 It is not a "generic movement speed item" by any means, arguably shaping up to the single most unique movement item in the game, you are ignoring its entire main effect for the sake of the argument 15:17 I tried the item out a lot, I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt but I honestly found the same issue you find in the opposite direction, it just wasn't fun to use, and I can't find another person who found having fun in using the item 15:21 this entire section is admittedly just kinda petty and shows that you're dismissing the new item for being a rework. While it may not have as many functional synergies with items, its concept is something very transformative to the entire gameplay loop, giving the player more expression and skill enabling to scouting, looting and fighting which is always a good quality! It feels good to be rewarded for thinking good and it will synergize with certain characters' abilities a lot aswell as freshen up the core feeling of looting and scouting as previously mentioned Admittedly the commiunity sucks in this area, it's extremely easy to get tilted and frustrated and I don't think anyone can really blame you for it, nearly everything people say is meaningless nonsense with nothing behind it that doesn't have a reason for being what it is or any intention for helping people better understand. Please don't take this as any sort of attack, I do like you and I hope you're doing fine. ❤
@@coopstain1728 have you never once consumed argumentative media in your life, nor have you never enjoyed a content creator and wanted to give them feedback on their videos properly?
“Is RND ok? Why did he spend this much time making this video?” Can't imagine why anyone would talk in-depth about a topic in a video game they enjoy or give constructive criticism to a UA-camr they like watching.
people have tried buffing it's numbers and it every single time nearly always ended up still doing nothing, or being absurdly broken on mithrix, it's lowkey just fundamentally flawed
Like the main problem is that most of the times in later stages you wont even be able to take more hit than 1 or 3 without dying. Like I understand the why having a “unique” item over a generic one argument but antler shield is just the wrong item to take into the argument.
@@aperson6562 sure it help but it’s most of the times not nearly enough to tank and even if you manage to get all the perfect defense item it just makes antler shield way to niche for needing all that item to work properly, it’s just not in my opinion a well designed item. If you are gonna have a unique item at least have it well designed for the game.
@@ROMYSjöstrand Are they literally just stacking antler shield and nothing else? I've had plenty of runs where I've been able to tank damage in later loops. Hell It's EASY to get that if you're stacking more than just offensive items.
The argument "It's a paid DLC, don't buy it if you don't like it" is just kinda bad. The point of a DLC is to make the game more fun to play, diluting the item pool and making it harder to get movement is simply not fun for most people, so it's probably good to get some more speed items in somehow. Otherwise why should they change anything about the DLC at all? If you don't like the elites, chef or tons of bugs, just disable the DLC. It is not really a productive argument for designing the game. Buffed/slightly reworked antler shield could probably work and be fun, making it into a movement speed item will also probably make fun. I like fun
Agreed. If there are aspects of the DLC that make the vast majority of the community disdain it and not want to play it, it's in the companies best interest to remedy it. Nobody quit playing for underwhelming items like bungus, aegis, roll of pennies, psg, vands, etc. "Just turn it off" shouldn't be a response to what is supposed to be additive to our enjoyment. We didn't pay for the DLC just to never play it.
I mean, if there are parts of a DLC you like and other things you do like, you can either install a mod to remedy or suck it up with one of 2 options. The issue is that this item could be turned into a good item without it being completely reworked into a movement item. Nobody's fun is being reduced by this item being tweaked. Someone's fun is being reduced if this item is completely redone.
"Don't buy the dlc if it's bad" is a poor defense for anyone who bought it day 1 with an expectation of quality And recommending a refund also isn't a great defense :/
@@logangagnepain7154 what would you change antler shields effect to, without making it redundant in the context of razor wire? On hit items that only sometimes help are kinda silly, especially in a game where you want to avoid taking hits from projectiles that can one shot you at harder difficulties. I love razor wire btw especially for early game and tincture planula builds Oh and MY fun is being affected.
it’s ok rnd we all have our irrational hyperfixations, like I love Infinite from sonic forces and you love Antler Shield from Risk of Rain 2: Seekers of the Storm
Fr tho I actually agree a little bit that this DLC added a bunch of items themed around getting hit and people bitched about it because it’s different from the other items without really giving them a proper chance. I’m a little split because I like what they’ve shown for elusive antlers but a more thought-out and buffed version of antler shield could have made for some fun tank REX builds or smth
@@fluxxi5289200% damage +50% every stack on top of 5 armor per stack would salvage the item imo but it would completely break Mithrix so I feel like this rework will be better for the health of the game. Other items I fully agree on, bugged behavior or numbers are the only things weighing them down and people are overreacting for no reason
@@mcawesome9705 This is definitely true to some degree, although I wonder how much of it is don't get hit vs don't take lethal damage, because there is a difference. If you have warped echo, antler shield, and noxious thorn, the damage gets split up and inflicts multiple instances of the retaliatory effects. This is further improved by repulsion armor plating and razorwire, but it's still kinda shit right now anyway. If the items were adjusted to focus on damage reduction and retaliation, like adding armor to antler shield or smth, it could make for an interesting build while still having the importance of not getting hit too much because you would still die. Again, it's probably still better to just rework them into something that fits into the game better
You're not dumb, stupid or stinky for liking antlers, but the item effect absolutely is. The hp difference between the player and the monsters makes the effect kind of inherently bad- even if the numbers were better, we're talking about an item that works when you get hit by things without protecting you significantly from the hit. It's like the deformed, sad corpse of repulsion armor and tougher times- Less protection than the former, and odds not even that much better than the latter. I am one of many that are happy about the changes they proposed to it.
In a vacuum, sure. But a part of an argument he had is that it works well with damage reduction items like repulsion and rose buckler, as well as just survivors that have decent armor to begin with since the damage sent back is not affected by the adjusted numbers of these damage reduction items/survivors.
@nathanchen2824 crit glasses plus every single thing that requires crit to even proc, including the scythe and predatory to name some greens. Laser scope to name a red. Shatterspleen to name a yellow. Yet crit glasses are loved much more because it is balanced enough to be good.
@@RosebudMartin Hi I think you are not understanding what I was saying, I was saying that a white item should be helpful on its own without support. Crit glasses are 10% extra damage, so even if you don't have any synnergy for crits they are still helpful. Earlier you said antlers are bad in a vacuum and that's exactly how you should judge a white item imo. A white item can be a core part of your build like how you were talking with the laser scope/harvester's scythe/shatterspleen but a white item shouldn't need support of other items to function well. Laser scope/scythe/shatterspleen all need crit glasses to function, but crit glasses don't need any of those three to be good so in a vacuum crit glasses are a good white item. Not every white item is fantastic in a vacuum but nearly all of them (pre this new dlc) are useable in a vacuum, with the only exceptions I can think of being bungus (which is debatable especially since it can be turned into wungus), roll of pennies, and bison steak. The latter 2 aren't even good outside of a vacuum though and are just (intentionally) bad white items. To reiterate, white items should be useable in a vacuum and besides objectively bad ones all white items pre dlc follow that rule. The reason why crit glasses are loved so much/considered good in the first place is because they work so well in a vacuum
I think the game having an item that hurts enemies when you take damage is a good thing. Luckily that already exists in the form of razorwire Also, elusive antler IS different than hoof, mocha, and drink because it gives barrier (defensive benefit) and extra speed buffs (growth nectar synergy)
there is no way you typed this out when it was mentioned in the video. but also, there is no way you typed it out period. how can razorwire and antler shield be the same but elusive antler is different than all the other movespeed items 💀💀
Antler shields with the false son are pretty peak tho, playing a self damaging build with him is honestly really powerful and this applys to the later atages, looped later stages I might add
3:33 is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard. "Oh, this part of the game is unfun? Too bad, you're probably just mad because you have to min max everything." I just want the game to be fun. Playing with no movement speed makes the game less fun, so I would prefer to have a movement speed item over worse razorwire. Also, the argument of "just play command/disable the dlc" is such garbage. I want to play the game as intended. I don't want to fully adjust the experience because the game itself is less fun.
Okay, so you want more items that give movement. That doesn't mean you get to remove items and change them just because you want more items that do the thing you want. I agree with the vid. Antlers COULD be good. The issue is a numbers thing. If you want more movement items, thats fine, but there are other ways to get what you want. All that we want is an item that already exists to be better.
The reason I uninstalled was that the game feels so awful every time you start because of how slow everything is. I have zero doubt losing movement speed is among the worst experiences players can expect to have.
then just dont buy it? or use mods? or play a different game? or perhaps find creative ways to work around the problem? or maybe build your own perfect game? etc...
@@binig.4591 or, you know... the item is changed in a way that the majority prefers? I wonder what the simpler and overall more beneficial option here is...
"you're all wrong !!! this item is actually goated because [insert information that you would never know about without rolling stage 1s or modding in a test stage or reading through game code] !!!" damn if only they actually, oh i don't know, PROPERLY DESCRIBED what the damn thing does LOL and even then, even with buffed numbers or being in the right scenario to pick it up and stack it, it's mid at best the only thing I can kind of agree on is that the reworked version could be fine without movement speed, IF the new effect with shield orbs is strong and it's moved into the green item tier so it doesn't dilute the white item pool
I love rnd’s videos but anyone else think his argument against the balanced item pools a little extreme? Someone wanting a single item to be movement speed based especially one with a more interactive effect (even if it’s just collecting an orb) doesn’t automatically make them the “downfall of video games”, having a single item or item pools to be more balanced with utility, dmg and movement doesn’t automatically mean they’re trying to min max the whole game and take the fun out of it. Arguably I think it’s more fun having the ability to actually move around more and dodge attacks instead. It’s just the bad faith argument he put forward really rubbed me the wrong way
Exactly you cant be mad that a item is being changed but also use the argument of its just a game go play drizzle with command like its just a game so why does it matter if it is different?
Elusive Antlers will be similarly inconvenient as Hunter's Harpoon though, so I'd rather have a double down on making the original form better rather than balls that will yeet you around when you don't expect it, more often than not.
@@al-mungus677 true. lets just change all the items to be movespeed and damage so i don't have to use drizzle or command 👍👍. its just a game was totally the argument for the item change and not for the people who are arguing about "item dilution" and "the effect goes against how you should play ror2". very good comprehension we have 👍👍👍👍
claiming bad faith while being bad faith is crazyyyy. the argument is not about "someone wanting a single item to be movement speed based", its about the people arguing the effect is bad because "we shouldn't reward getting hit" and "the item pool is diluted". you are the downfall of video games if you unironically believe that. the reason triple A games are all rehashed slop is because brain broken dopamine addicts can't handle anything that doesn't make brain go happy
@@rndThursday as someone who enjoys razorwire and items that activate on hit (ie. the Polaroid or swallowed penny from tboi) I don’t think taking damage is a good excuse for the items rework and agree with you but my comment is more about how you went about this. The first sentence literally talks about how your argument rubbed me the wrong way and continuing to call people “brain broken dopamine addicts” just seems unnecessary. Putting everyone who thinks rewarding the player for taking damage is bad (even tho it’s inevitable) a min maxer or likes the changes happening to a single item the downfall of gaming is just a lil extreme. I still stand by my original statement tho, having a more interactive movement speed item is good because it’s unique to that type of item, it shouldn’t have replaced antlers but I think the item should exist. Hopefully we can have an actual discussion about item reworks without the name calling.
your argument here seems to basically just boil down to "but if you have these other 10 items you can make antler shield usable!!". it's a white item that requires a ton of other items to be even moderately useful. in your given example a survivor has multiple damage, proc, and armor items, at which point why are you even bothering with antler shield?
Congratulations, you fail to see the point in your own argument. By your logic, Pocket ICBM is a bad red item that requires a ton of other items to be even moderately useful.
@@evellyinhelenoir8804 Icbm requires either playing engineer (oh god no) an atg/shrimp, a disposable missile launcher or fireworks to get instant value, and all of those ítems are good on his own without needing the others, also, it's unlikely you get icbm early enough to feel it as a red scrap, meanwhile antlers needs a lot more ítems, stacks of the item and since it is white you are still better off using a printer if you don't get the stacks
@@evellyinhelenoir8804 ICBM only needs a single one of several different items you could have and probably WILL have to instantly see impactful results and feel the item's effect (ATG will chunk health off of strong enemies in an instant, Plasma Shrimp will proc your other items out the ass and shred down health, even 1 Fireworks stack will sweep out crowds of grunts for you just by popping a capsule and let you ignore them entirely, DML will destroy armies, etc) Antler Shield in its current state is more niche by a WIIIIDE margin and requires being band-aided by so many other items on top of trading other whites for multiple stacks of itself at once to make it "useful", but at that point the effect it gives you is still so weak let alone *unfun* that you have no reason to attempt this anyway unless you're just feeling a little silly; in a vacuum, sure, you *can* make it have a noticeable effect, but who is actually playing like that and waking up one morning thinking "I'll print 20 antler shields today and have fun doing it" There should be bad items to make the good items more impactful, but imo they shouldn't be so bad it effectively doesn't do anything without going out of your way and rigging it up to life support to make its effect viable or even positively noticeable. Even tuning up its existing stats doesn't really do much because at the mid-to-late game the enemies that would hit you hard enough to get meaningful damage out of it will nearly one-shot you if not kill you outright anyway on top of having massive health pools compared to the damage they are dealing to you, the game is intentionally designed around enemies being able to instakill you easily which is why "don't get hit" is so prevalent, the only time you're gonna be tanking hits and having a good time is at the early game in which case you won't have access to a dozen stacks of Antler Shield Antler Shield doesn't synergize with other items in a way where you can reasonably feel the positive effect of the synergy, you have to go out of your way to band-aid the item with other items that are good on their own (compared to Razorwire which works similarly, yet objectively better because you can use Helfire Tincture, a single other item, to spam out the razors while taking minimal damage- not to mention its immediate synergies with REX, Engineer, and Seeker) I like the idea of tuning up its stats but also having it give you increased armor stats, then stacking it would become useful for the sake of the armor and the reflected damage becomes a nice bonus
Just like how the antler shield is barely classifiable as a shield Note: barely is an exaggeration used to match the sentence structure of the original comment. Trying to blow away enemy projectiles with just the breath from your lungs is more effective as a defense mechanism than this dumpster fire of an item.
Ngl I would rather lose a run than try and have fun with the playstyles antler shield and chronic expansion promote Also just because an item is "unique" (it isn't btw) doesn't mean we should keep it. I could come up with an item idea that buffs your stats when you have no other items and no matter how you tweaked the numbers it would always be a bad idea fundamentally
Also people want speed and damage items because that's what is fun to them. That's why people want more of it. That's why people talk about diluting the pool cause they abhor seeing garbage they can't and don't want to use. I'm sorry but rnd's 1% opinion objectively makes the game less fun to 99% of players.
and thats what ive been saying. you and a bunch of people want your candy for dinner. i know, i get it. You THINK that's what you want, but when the game is boring and you can't quite put your finger on why, well....
8:09 no, you'd be dead, run over, but hey you may have taken away 100 hp from the 100,000 hp elder lemurian, because its still a chance. In essence, antler shield is good if you can get every defensive item in the game and you have at least 11 antler shields; I'm seeing the strategy now, but I still think it's a bad item.
I understand the sentiment behind the video but the item’s “unique” effect is fundamentally terribly designed. The damage of the item being based on the enemy’s damage when enemy damage stats are pitifully low in comparison to their HP is just bad design (mithrix has a base HP of 1000 and a damage stat of 16, for example)
I think its absolutely correct that we lack movespeed items, but the ones we do have are all already whites lmao shoulda gave this effect to unstable transmitter
DOUBLING DOWN!?! A Item that isn't Lunar that requires you to take damage from an enemy specifically, it doesn't nullify that damage upon activating, and then it does a teeny tiny portion of the enemies already small damage number back to that enemy, whose HP pool is MASSIVE. The amount of stacking it takes for Antler Shield to be even baseline usable throughout a run is insane. I would rather is be something that provides some utility than something that requires taking a hit from enemies getting me closer to losing the run. Its not playing the game wrong if you get hit. That's not the point, but you don't WANT to get hit. Its not that you can't or don't get hit, but the closer your healthbar is to 0, the closer you are to LOSING. An item shouldn't be built around this unless its defensive or its a Lunar and its giving you some bonus in return. You could just make Antler reflect off all damage sources, but then its literally just enemy damage scaling Razorwire. Its entirely different doing a Hellfire Tincture with Razorwire build and taking a set amount of damage you are accounting for to shred everything around you than it is to randomly get nuked by an Elder Lemurian only for a Coin Flip to determine if you are going to COUGH ON ITS HEALTHBAR. Enemy HP scaling is far FAR greater than Enemy ATK scaling on purpose, because the game is built around the player massively increasing in damage over time, while not really massively increasing in survivability (most of the time at least).This item doesn't start strong, or even come close to scaling alongside enemies throughout a run, and even increasing its numbers isn't going to do too much. I think if Antler Shield is to stay, it needs to be 75% base chance, and 150% base reflect. Each stack should grant 5% Chance and 25% Reflect. Going above 100% Chance should give it a chance to reflect twice and so on. Antler Shield should've originally dropped while giving an armor increase, it would actually have a solid case in that scenario, you take less damage from all sources, and if you do get hit, you deal some damage back. Your argument of this being a unique playstyle and it shouldn't be taken away, makes sense, until you realize that Razorwire just does it's job better. Razorwire always procs off ANY damage source and targets everything in an expanding area and scaling DIRECTLY with YOUR damage, letting it shred things, while Antler requires an enemy to hurt you to only be a CHANCE to tickle them back, and while it may scale with some damage and the enemies damage, the amount of times you see it even working will be few and far between, yknow... due to the player not wanting to take damage from enemies in the first place. And if this is bait, I fell for it wholeheartedly.
I believe antler shield needs a rework it is very similar to razorwire and we don’t need two items fulfilling the “get hit and deal damage back”niche. However it should not be reworked into movement speed as we already have movement speed aswell. Instead I think something like “charging antlers” where running into enemy’s deals damage to them and the damage increases based on movement speed would be a much better addition as it would add more synergies to the item pool and I t would create a new unique style of play not shared by any other item.
I saw nothing wrong with your argument on the previous video. I agree that removing a unique effect in favor of a more generic speed up is boring, properly balancing the unique effect to make it actually be useful is a far better approach imo.
@@aperson6562 no man the item just sucks, in a game like risk of rain anything that activates only on getting hit is bad design, you shouldn't incentivise something that you're supposed to avoid just like how bungus sucks became you shouldn't ever be standing still. And the point he brought up about how items like rose buckler exists therefore we can't complain about useless items because there's other on hit items that are actually beneficial to your run is stupid, nobody is complaining about how antlers are an on hit effect, it's the fact they are the single most useless on hit activation in the game and they do nothing to actually benefit the player in the event where you inevitably take damage
@@hambonepng1152 but bungus existing allows for the fun afk engi build to exist. That’s the point he was making. If you had your way, sure, youd have your efficient small item pool, but that’s a whole build you’ve destroyed. There are ways to mitigate damage in the game(opal, jade elephant) and engi exists. Not every item needs to be optimal or useful in every scenario, the whole point of a roguelike is to adapt to different scenarios that you face due to the inherent randomness. If every item was the optimal movement speed or damage item, what adapting is taking place? What variety exists between runs?
@@aperson6562 afk engi build and fun don't belong in the same sentence, I will never understand how engineer players gas lit the whole community into thinking this strategy was actually good past rainstorm, if you wanna purposefully ruin your run by printing 1000 bungus go ahead, just don't get mad at me for actually wanting to have good runs, the variation in runs comes from adapting to different scenarios like you said but getting an item like antler shield feels bad because it's bad 100% of the time
I take Antler Shield. I take 10 more Antler Shields. I fight Mithryx. He takes my Antler Shields. I shoot Mithryx. I taje 100% of my damage. I die because Mithryx has more health than me. 😢
You changed a lot of minds on Longstanding Solitude, you're not cooking with Antler Shield. Even if they increase the percentages, it rewards you for taking damage. Whether or not they changed Antlers, we definitely needed more mobility in the game, given how introcall movement speed can be to a run. I don't personally care about an item being unique. I just don't want my item pool watered down by items that encourage my own death 😂
when i saw the antler shield-> elusive antlers rework i have to say i was quite happy, but watching this video has made me think a little more and im beginning to agree with rnd here yes movement speed items are some of the rarest items in the game and so having a new one will always help, but even with seekers of the storm active i never really feel that much slower or unable to dodge enemy attacks. movement speed isn’t the only metric of mobility there’s plenty of other items that can help you move (feather for example) that i think are overlooked in the whole “there’s only 3 movement items” argument. not only this, but also every survivor except engineer, captain and railgunner has a built-in dodge button on their utility and proper usage of that ability (and maybe a lucky hardlight afterburner (another mobility item btw!!)) can allow you to dodge most enemy attacks with little to no movement speed. what im trying to say here is that speed isn’t everything in this game and trying to act like there is this obligation to fill a quota of speed items or suddenly the game is unbalanced is silly. i would also like to mention that movement speed is exclusively tied to white items so far, and the dorito is a far more annoying and useless item than even current antler shield is, so imo giving the elusive antlers effect to a dorito rework could’ve been a lot more interesting due it adding a green movement speed item. finally, rnd does make a good point in his argument as to why razorwire and antler shield are not the same item. razorwire is not built to counter high-damage attacks and so an item that can fill that niche is a genuinely good idea. i’ve never heard anyone complaining that razorwire exists even though it suffers from the same “you have to get hit to use it” problem (personally i think that antler shield is only receiving this much backlash is because it wasn’t hopoo that designed it, it was gearbox and everyone hates gearbox). with significant numbers adjustments to account for the massive gap between enemy damage and enemy health (buffing antler shield so it can actually do significant retaliation damage to a high-damage attack) it could actually make for a very interesting playstyle built around razorwire (to combat high- frequency low-damage hits) and antler shield (to combat low-frequency high-damage hits). i do think maybe rnd needs to go relax for a bit after that “you are the fall of videogames” segment tho 😭😭 great vid really made me think about the genuine potential an item like antler shield could have 👍, i actually think it’s a shame it’s being reworked now also chronic expansion slaps anyone that says otherwise clearly doesnt actually want new items in the game cos here we have a new damage item (another category of item that’s always asked for) that has a completely unique activation method that literally has synergy with just playing the game (you’re gonna be killing all the enemies anyway why complain about stacking damage while you kill them?) and people still find a way to complain about it (my tinfoil hat is again leading me to believe it’s because gearbox made the item)
You aren't dumb, stupid, or stinky. …but a game needs to be balanced, and diluting the item pool with bad or niche items is not worth the trade-off. Speed is an essential part of ror2 and making it harder to get purely for niche items is not balanced. Fyi I play monsoon on Xbox, so blacklists aren't an option for me; I bought the dlc for the skins, stages, items, and lore. I can't just say ‘yes’ to some items or skins and ‘no’ to others. Your second argument; bustling fungus = slug, hoof = mocha = nrg drink. I disagree with all of those, which is why antler shield is not razor wire, but it is worse because razor wire’s niche is more likely to become useful. What is more likely, you finding a hellfire tincture or you finding an antler shield printer? Taking a stone golem’s punch to the balls and dealing 10% of my dead corpse’s hp to that golem is not useful. Wait, how many items are required to make 1 white item good? I think that might finish off this argument. It is a white item that requires at least 5 other items to function well; that's not good. Maybe it should be buffed, maybe the new elusive antlers should have been given to knockback fin, call it sprint-fin. You can make that comlaint, but raging about it just makes you seem more maniacle and less relatable. Or maybe I’m an idiot, who knows; I’d be willing to talk with you about it if you'd be up for that?
this is a roguelike PVE game. it is diametrically opposed to the genre to have it be balanced. the point is to have that rollercoaster of outcomes. is this the run where the stars align? or will i be punished for my hubris? will i be rewarded for making a gamble on an item that needs others to work well? sometimes. and the fact that it doesnt work everytime makes the times it does work feel better to me. hell, if you dont like using an item just scrap it. thats what i do with all of my PSGs except in like a handful of runs. the rng of run "quality" is a feature of the game, not a bug. its inherent to the genre
@ that is why I suggested making knockback fin into a speed item, since its mechanic isn't good to begin with. But to tackle your broader issue, the game is meant to be balanced, all games should strive to be. The thing about roguelikes is that the randomness of the items is what makes it unbalanced; you shouldn't intentionally make bad items or extremely niche items to make the game unbalanced. Yes, I scrap antler shield every time I get it because the item isn't good except if I run a specific build specifically for it. I would like to see it given a better use, and that is what the rework has done. Could they have just buffed the numbers? Yes, but having a reflection of damage dealt as a chance, with the reflection being so very low a percent when comparing your health to your enemies health, the item would have to have incredibly high numbers to even be useable. And all of this… for a white item.
@@Skele10bro yeah i think we just have different things we want out of a game. i disagree on what a healthy balance for a roguelike pve game is. thats okay though. different strokes for different folks and all that jazz. i appreciate that you shared. the devs have clearly expressed that they are moving in a direction of what you want. and ive stopped playing the game. the world goes on and everyone is happy
@alien5589 have you stopped playing the game as a result of the dlc, or was it before the dlc release? Or was it as a result of the dev notes, as you clearly don't like the direction they've taken it; you've peaked my interest. Also, if you don't play the game anymore, then why are you watching Rnd? I'm... puzzled.
@@Skele10bro i stopped after a few hours of the dlc when it came out. i had like 400 or so hours in the game previously. ive been keeping an eye on the direction of the game since then. i really liked what the game was prior to the dlc, and some of the dlc itself was alright. it just felt a little undercooked + all the game breaking bugs. but it looks like where they are taking it is in a place where id rather just play a movement shooter instead. if its just going to boil down to atk>MS>def, with less option for build diversity, why play that when i can play something different that is specifically designed to scratch that same itch that they are moving towards. forgive my metaphor, im not sure if it translates outside of my head. also there are no rules to who i can watch. youre not the chinese government... or are you...?
Gearbox genuinely listens to feedback, acknowledging that we NEEDED movement speed items in the DLC 2 item pool, and created an interesting item that isn’t just flat increase, and you have the nuts to tell the people who are happy about it “you are the fall of video games” I love your videos but this is a bad look. I think you’re the one who’s getting too serious about video games
I mean you're still just wrong, also the problem with having less movement speed isn't "Minmaxxing" its the fact that movement speed is fun and an interactive form of defense where as antler shield is a poorly designed item on top of being too weak like you said. I do agree that "I don't like the idea of items incentivizing you to get hit" is a stupid argument but that still doesnt really help your case. This item is boring as hell, it isnt interesting or fun to use, it doesnt alter your playstyle, basically every movement speed item changes how you approach situations and makes it easier to loot a stage and get to the next quicker. It's just a bad idea for an item.
Antler shield would make sense if it was some weird Tougher Times, Single target Razor Wire Hybrid. When you reflect damage you shouldn't take that damage in the first place. 10%(+10% hyperbolic) chance to reflect 100%(+100%) of damage from the attack back at the attacker. Do not take damage when reflecting damage. Boom you now have another source of 'dodge' for damage which can be helpful, at 10 stacks you have a 50% chance to negate an attack against you and deal 10x its damage back to the enemy attacking. It also would work great for Engineer turrets since it can help with being swarmed by weak enemies. And if you just have a couple its still a decent chance to negate damage which keeps it from being a trash tier white but you would probably need to scrap it before Mythrix unless its blacklisted. Or maybe it would be better if it could reach 100% chance to reflect with damage negation, but has a cooldown that decreases as you stack along with increasing damage. So more like Safer Spaces. We have Mocha which is Goat Hoof mixed with Soldier Syringe. Why can't we get Tougher Times mixed with single target Razor Wire?
@@crunchiez Exactly, when you see reflect you expect to not take damage in most games. Reflect is redirecting damage. A counter is taking damage and giving it back.
Yeah nah bro the numbers don't matter anything that only activates on you getting hit is a badly designed item unless its a passive defense increase like repulsion armor or tougher times, telling everybody who doesn't like the useless item to just play command and ruin the game or comparing it to healing and defense items is just dumb
When I first saw Antler Shield's effect I was under the impression that the damage you reflected was also lowered against you, like a more aggressive version of Tougher Times. I think this would actually be an interesting effect, like if it had a 25% chance to halve the damage you took from an attack and deal the other half back to the source. (not sure on exact numbers, but you get the idea)
You gotta be rage baiting, this or your way too emotional about all this, and I didn't see the last vid, but I think I agree with you to some extent, for example the new antlers they propose I didn't like it, I think most items in the DLC don't need full reworks, chronic expansion is a ok item, just like fireworks it works well in a specific build, and it's okay to be like that, I know we have different opinions about, but I think we both agree it didn't needed to be changed, maybe mess a bit with the numbers to make it easier to use without a FMP, and antlers just needed some small changes, like most items in the DLC, as for the speed discussion I think I made clear that do understand and even agree with a lot of what you said, but you gotta keep the balance of the item pool simple for fun reasons, imagine if we're talking about damage, and we dilute the item pool such as getting damage items becomes more difficult and now you can't kill things cause you have a lot less damage, and without speed it becomes harder to dodge attacks, you gotta think of speed as defensive items, the DLC didn't add enough defensive items, it added reflecting damage, but you still take the damage, and yes speed is the best defence in the game, damage reduction is the second better mostly I believe because reduction rarely works exponentially like damage, and the DLC didn't solve this, so what I'm trying to say is in regards to speed, the DLC didn't add enough defense in the game, the most efficient way would be to add speed items, but since they wanted to create this tank build they should have added more armor itens, I still think it wouldn't hurt to give chance doll(passive) and luminous shot(after using secondary gains a temporary buff) speed, but for sure that antlers and noxious should give you armor in some way, imo thay should have changed bison steak and infusion to give a little armor as well, any ways, what I'm saying is that I understand your points and the ideas of the DLC and I agree that the dev team is going the wrong way to fixing the problems with the DLC, but you are being really weird about the response of the community, like what did you expect everyone to have a masters degree in game dev? Of course not, you talk a lot o shit too as I believe I explained in this comment, and to be clear I also think I must talk a lot of shit, your tier list vid made me reconsider a lot of what I was thinking about the expansion, before watching it I would be happy to see what they did to antlers, but you explained your points and it changed the way I saw the situation, I believe now I have a much better understanding of the game and the DLC thx to you, but now you talked a lot of shit, and to be fair I believe that came from a place of emotion, when I started writing this I also was very emotional, but I hope I have made myself clear, as one of the voices in this community you have the ability to talk to a lot of players and others important voices, I believe your opinions would make this conversation take a turn for the better but you gotta take your head out of your ass, or as we say in my country baixa a bola aí parceiro, I don't want all the items to change completely, and I believe you also don't, so now it's time to show your argument, talk to other voices in the community, with gearbox, I truly do believe your understanding of the DLC if presented correctly can make the next few updates much better
Good job on farming my comment! Respectfully, I disagree with many arguments in the video but I do agree with your opinion as a whole. The original idea of antlers is fundamentally flawed. -Player has low hp and high damage, and enemies have low damage but high hp(in proportion to each other), so even increasing just the number on the Antlers will solve that issue, sure, however the numbers there would have to be absurd and look funny on a white item. -The game isn’t fun without move speed. We need movement speed items for the game to feel faster paced and I personally hate slugging around the Stage 1 Shattered Abodes looking for loot, any movement speed will make me feel so much better than any amount of antler shields. Just adding a brand new speed item would solve the issue and Antelrs wouldn’t need the full rework in that case -“if Antler shield is the same as Razor Wire then why Energy Drink isn’t the same as Hoof, they are both movement speed items” Well yeah, so are ATG and Bands are both dps items just as Razor and Antlers- they are all dps items but ATG and Bands work in a very unique way, separate from each other but still synergize with each other. Antler shield and Razor do complement each other but there is no synergy, they don’t make each other stronger and very similar in concept. But why then hoof and Energy drink are ok? Because it’s very difficult to make a plain movement speed item for the white tier without overcomplicating things like whatever that green item does. -“Just switch off DLC if you don’t like playing it” I like DLC, I would just enjoy it more if items in it were more balanced. It’s important to have a balance between DPS, defensive and speed items for the game to feel fair. If on stage 5 the only speed item I got was Hunter’s… whatever it is, the Commencement would be just suffering and I would probably die due to RNG of item bloat. It’s not fun nor fair. And I think I already yapped too much, but just in conclusion gonna add that I agree with you on your overall idea that Antlers should stay in the game. We need “bad”(niche) items to make the game more balanced and give opportunities for wacky builds because that’s also fun, but that shouldn’t take away from overall enjoyment of the game I think a nice middle ground would be just adding another speed item and buff Antelers so they always proc and give 3-5 armour. But in the current state of things I will always take Elusive Antlers over Antler Shield
Maybe I’m really susceptible to internet people’s takes, but man, you really sold me on this one. Before this video I thought it was garbage, but now I’m on your side. It’s fun, it’s unique, and at its WORST, it’s still healthy to have “Bad” items for the balance of the game. I’ll be completely honest, the thing I’m MOST looking forward to with the Antler Shield rework is the barrier. Everyone is forgetting this is our third EVER barrier item in the whole game. If it was JUST speed, I’d legit rather have it the way it is now
Even if you go through all the effort to make this item work in your run it's still not a very fun build lol. Getting hit is never that fun, even if it's "intended". I agree that the redesign is a little uninspired but there's no way you can make antler shield work imo
a lot of comments fail to realize that hes trashing that fact that they are reworking it into another move speed item. I have to agree with rnd with this one, we dont need to delete an item that fills a role that is supposed to compliment niche tank builds and convert into an "always good" item. imo, viable build diversity is kinda weak in ror2 if half of the item synergies that were intended never work very well, even with all the pieces on monsoon/rainstorm (think something like a nkahana's centric build). However, they definitely need to do more than just buff numbers. While the item fundamentally kinda sucks with its description, it would be cool to have the antler shield still take up the mantle of "single target dps razor wire" which is what i assumed the intention behind the item. like instead of reflecting damage based on the targets damage, it could scale differently with max% hp or armor or something like that. im not saying the item doesnt need to be reworked, but changing it completely into something as boring as a movement speed stat is just dumb
I HATE Disputed Origin's argument that items that reward you for being hit are "backwards" from a game design standpoint. HP is a resource and a stat that should be play around like any other in the game, if the game rewarded more for being hit you wouldn't "become worse at the game", after all you are not always gonna have the items that make getting hit beneficial. It would incentivize you to play around with your HP to be able to gain utility or damage or any other thing you want more. And if you don't like that just don't pick up the items. I think gearbox should listen less to the people that play eclipse 8 as the standard, trying too hard to cater to them just leads to a more stale game for the sake of consistency. If they still want to make more movement speed items honestly I just wish Antler shield do both of the effects, both new and old, that way you can have a niche utility with the movement speed. It still wouldn't make the item that much better than a mocha and still retain identity and fun synergies.
People who play command on drizzle and people who like to min max their monsoon/eclipse runs both share the same game. Both people are having fun otherwise they wouldn't play the way they do. Saying the people who like the latter are dumb fun-haters isn't any more productive than those people complaining about diluted pools.
Never had an issue with antlers but the way you present it makes me more intrseted to fuck around with it. Cool vid Mr.rnd! Edit: what was that end card 💀
I agree with every point made in this video. BUT, to play devil's advocate, the justification for Dio's being a good item when "you aren't supposed to get hit and incentivizing that is bad" is that Dio's falls into the category of penalty mitigation, that is to say, "you will always get hit, this makes getting hit less bad" (same group as ruckler and rap) whereas antlers and razor wire both deal damage so a hit which would kill you, still kills you. This of course is a terrible argument since it also applies to healing items which again will not save you from dying when you get chunked, but will reduce the penalty of getting hit which is generally accepted as unavoidable.
The difference between healing items here, and razorwire/antlers is that they encourage you to take damage, in a game where you absolutely do not want to be hit, and will kill you in 2-5 hits depending on the enemy. Healing items are a "yeah im gonna get hit, so i'd like to recover that lost HP due to a mistake I made." where razorwire and antlers more specifically NEED you to take damage to kill enemies, where you might as well be dead anyway if that damage is shoddy at best. I don't really know how else to articulate this point, so I'll leave it here.
@@nutty8871 firstly I'd like to note that none of what you said opposes my illustrated statements. Secondly I would like to point out that you are viewing the sole use of antlers/wire as active, as a primary damage source, a way to kill things, which I feel is unfair because as we all know you aren't supposed to get hit. In my mind the point of antlers/wire isn't to reward you for taking damage but to simply just act as a small circumstantial damage boost. Keeping in mind it is universally accepted that you will get hit consider that instead of trying to get hit for item value you just played like normal, then on the few times you do get hit the retribution damage helps you swiftly deal with whatever hit you to begin with, razorwire has a proc coefficient after all so it's just another roll to set up death mark.
@@freindlycommentator1710 I can understand that, but razorwire also doesn't deal much damage late game either. Antlers at least scale with damage per stack, but the issue, like razorwire, is that you will not see the damage being a reasonable amount without a large stack of these items. And if you're going to go print them, that becomes your main damage source.
i think my problem with this is that the problem with this is that antler shield goes against a main property of any game: is it fun? antler shield just isnt fun to use and isnt unique. oh cool. one projectile. awesome. you cant build it like you can build around things like gesture, fireworks, etc, without sacrificing 20 items to make antler shield a fun item. I like the elusive antlers idea a lot more because it's not just a flat increase to move speed, and actually introduces a fun layer to the game of trying to chain together these orbs to get maximum value
I think rnd has us fooled, he set up this masterful bait for months now in his streams calling this item usable and good in order to set it up as ragebait for when Gearbox finally decided to fix the DLC and the items that are bad.
Rnd thursday is my favourite wrong ror2 youtuber, from calling commando mid to calling knockback fin good to defending antler shield, holy moly bro doesnt miss with the being wrong 🔥🔥🔥
I like niche builds, but when it's a common item that requires me to have a VERY specific build/character I don't think it's healthy for the game. Saying you can scrap it isn't a very good argument either. A potential non-movespeed rework I saw someone suggest is chance to replenishing shield/give shield on hit. I don't think the pool NEEDS more movespeed but antler shield could be a movespeed item AND have interesting build potential they aren't mutually exclusive. Elusive antlers doesn't seem to be taking it in an interesting direction sadly, but everyone should agree it's better than what we have now.
i think ultimately if the majority of a game's player base wants to play the game a certain way, its probably in the devs best interest to let them. if theres a huge amount of eclipse players, maybe dont make the eclipse experience worse. if theres a huge amount of people who hate your items, maybe change them and make them better suited to your player base. from a developer standpoint, you would want your players to like your dlc, buy it, and keep it enabled. this isnt rimworld. we have 2 dlcs. and they are not easy to make.
Why would you consider it a new hunter's? The only thing connecting them is movement speed. Antlers already has more effects as it has a base passive movespeed and not only are the orbs most likely spawned from something a bit more consistent than killing enemies (For some everything I see dismissing this item seems to insinuate that Elusive Antlers spawns the orbs on kill), but they also give some barrier. Unless you mean it's another incosistent movement speed item that may not be worth it ever, which only thing I could say to that is I guess we'll have to wait and see (although it does sound like Antlers will actually be better than hunter's)
Devs probably mistook Knockback Fin with the Antlers cuz those are actually undefendable, Antlers indeed just need a better stat and stacking change. 2024 Antlers got the potential fr fr as the hip ones say.
The beautiful thing abt the void item system that Hopoo introduced with SoTv is that the shittiest item, or something that you'd never consider taking can be worth picking up for its void variant. They should've just reworked it and kept its identity, or given it a dope void version and it'd give it a valid reason for being in the pool.
I really like sots rebalance mod that makes them give you speed depending on your armor and giving you a certain amount of armor on pick up, at least I think it was something like that. Armor and speed combined. Boom. brilliant solution.
i dislike the rework solely on the fact that the entire identity and idea of antlers was very cool and unique but now its a boring movement speed item that you can't have as part of a cool build. no one ever looked at goat hoof and said "wow thats perfect for my build!"
I agree antler shield deserves to stay as is and get a little buffed, but I am a more move speed items defender not from a like crunching numbers perspective but from a gamefeel perspective. The ratio of speed items pre-dlc had good gamefeel, felt like I was gaining speed at a rate that matched the increasing enemy spawns, post dlc the gamefeel is worse, I often find myself too slow to avoid the increased enemy spawns (and I be out here scrapping and printing, sometimes there just is no shmovement printer). I ain't saying I know the perfect solutions to all the problems, but, I wanted to voice my opinion on this cause Im coming at the move speed issue from a vibes angle and it seems like most arguments people have given you are a numbers angle. Good video, thanks for facilitating discussion.
3:09 We need more crit items. Besides glasses, the items that give crit are pretty rare (Shatterspleen, Predatory Instincts, Harvester Scythes, Irradiant Pearls and two equipments). Something like having one item that gives 5% crit and 5% damage, some item that gives 20% crit for a moment after killing an enemy or so, some item that crits bleeding enemies and gives 5% chance of bleed, other conditional crits and stuff like that.
Well, I think having more speed is more fun than a niche item that does damage after getting hit and I think 99% of people agree with this. Clearly, you're part of the other 1%
When I saw that gearbox was going to rework the antlers entirely it did feel wrong to me, this video made me understand why. It should definitely be buffed significantly rather than changed to something else imo
Well since it's single target reflect, making it specialize at killing smaller enemies is good. No proc coefficient, ~600% base damage, 100% chance. This can sneeze back at lesser wisps and minor lemurians. This can proc gasoline or other non-proc items and make characters like Artificer and Railgunner better at small enemy control, while also working very well with tankier survivors.
maybe this isn’t that great, but It’s an idea that could work. On hit have a chance to reflect almost all of a hit (you take 5% enemy takes 95%), the chance of it proc-ing would be roughly 2x lower than a bear scaling the same way. It would overall be worse than a bear defensively but with the added perk of reflecting damage I’d imagine it would have a use (something along the lines of mocha to hoof)
The thing is about making "niche" dlcs - companies in the current climate need to sell every single dlc super well, otherwise they get fucking rekt. Even massive companies closed off or sold their IPs to someone else after a single flop. It's just not worth the risk in the developer's eyes. The content needs to appeal to the largest group of players possible
Just to add to the discussion, my take, I'm all for the rework under the specific notion that it doesn't serve a purpose. It didn't need to be a speed item, but it was a glorified white scrap due to how bad it was at it's base. RoR2 really depends on it's items to be generally good and not specific to a strategy. And if they do support specific playstyles, they're normally red or lunar items, rare enough to not hinder the early game. I can see the Antlers moving up to a red though and rework it to be THE thorns build item. Which could also justify giving it more impactful buffs, like giving armor, and giving it better stats.
I get what you’re saying, the antlers were a “bad item” but not a bad IDEA of an item. If stacking antlers for return damage meant at much as generally stacking other white items, it could fit into armor/barrier/shield/med kit builds much better instead of changing it into something that fits everything.
"It's just a game" Yeah??? And we all want to enjoy it too! Having a unique and extremely hard to build around item that's useless, versus one that makes the game more fun for everyone (movement speed is for more than mixmaxing!) doesn't seem like a "death of video games" type of ask. Most of your arguments seem to boil down to "I think the way you guys (most of the target audience) want to play the game is absurd, and the items should cater to me (a guy who is very good at not getting hit, thus making the antler shield worthless)."
I don't agree on Antlers but I do agree that the developers shouldn't homogenize the dlc items. They should definitely be unique items and not be just damage, defence or speed items. We need some cool new possible builds.
I absolutely agree with you, there are different ways to play and there are items that increase movement speed, but items with more unique effects are few and far between should be buffed accordingly
Farming comments on this one 🧑🌾
The item was such a a cool idea, I just wish it felt better
Balanced gaming and risk take, I give you the victory 🎉
I think your core example is missing one crucial point:
You took 1,000 damage and are now dead. Yeah, sure, you may say, "You need other items like Jade Elephant to make it good," but we can't sit here and act like taking 1,000 damage to dish back out 1,000 damage to enemies who often gain health pools within the tens to hundreds of thousands if not more, even if I deal 10k to those enemies, by the time that becomes a significant chance to proc, it's nearly useless.
And yeah, sure, niche item, but let's put this into perspective.
Armor Piercing Rounds
Bison Steak
Cautious Slug
Crowbar
Delicate Watch
Gasoline
Lens-Makers
Medkit
Monster Tooth
Opal
Goat Hoof
Power Elixir
Repulsion Armor
Rusted Key
Soldier's Syringe
Topaz Brooch
Tougher Times
Tri-Tip
That's a pretty significant amount of white items with something in common: are useful to most, if not all the Survivors in the game for being linearly stacking, statistical benefits, that make or break a run in the end.
By comparison, Knockback Fin, Antler Shield, and Bolstering Lantern don't do that. Their effects are more things to build around, not to help build towards something else.
Razorwire constitutes a build on its own. Not to compare effectiveness or uniqueness, but more to compare that many Green items end up more niche than White ones on a regular basis.
This is not for the sake of balance! This is for the sake of many people's fun and enjoyment of the core experience. I love the maps of SotS, the Survivors are fun, and the new boss can be difficult to complete but fun to attempt. That being said, I like RoR2's core experience. I don't like getting terrible items that serve me no purpose unless I explicitly build around them as a White, as opposed to items that get me started and going.
Maybe Elusive Antlers wasn't the right call, but I for one don't find Antler Shield fun, because if I end up finding them, it's highly probable I'm getting something that on most Survivors is not feasible to build around. By comparison, the most niche White items are Focus Crystal and Bungus, which both have niche applications for only one to four or five Survivors. But even those two items offer a consistent, stable statistical benefits that places them in line with the rest.
The DLC added multiple new Whites with niche applications, underwhelming effects, and bad existing synergies. Starting a proc chain scarcely counts because by the time it can do anything significant for most, you already have something else that does more.
antler shields on engi turrets = S Tier item so true fr fr no god on cap bussin opinion rnd
@@reeses7839 Okay hold up this argument is wrong on the first sentence: Antler shield doesn't take any reductions in to account for the reflection. You only need SOME defensive items to make that 1000 damage taken not kill you. This is the part a lot of you are missing. It's not primarily a damage item, it's a "turns defense in to offense" item. It's entirely garbage if ALL you have is ukes, glasses, syringe, bands, chronic expansion, etc.
Man is about to write his PhD thesis defending Knockback Fin
Looks like he’s not taking the news well
THIS IS NOT A JAB AT RND, I LOVE THE GUY
This is just trying it be a complete, 100%, as little biased as possible and as purely constructive criticism, not tyring to be hateful, not trying to be mad, just trying to break it down and think about it critically
2:09 You have 10 antler shields, you get hit with 1k damage and you theoretically don't die
You have atleast 1 lens makers to be able to feasibly crit with it, which is a 1 in 10 for 2k damage
You have a crowbar for it to deal 3.5k damage
It *can* also proc an atg as before mentioned for a combined total of 14k damage
If you have these set of 12 items, you would need to proc that 10% crit chance into that 3% atg which is in total a *0.3% chance*
Ok let's say have a set of 10 antler shields and 10 lens makers and an atg, the chances of getting that 14k damage is still 3% chance *per getting hit* and it will never actually scale without other items, nearly every single thing in the game will passively scale off of your levels to a very hidden but extremely important extent but antler shield will never scale with it, only with the damage of the enemies, and before you even get hit for 1k damage you'd have to atleast be on stage 5 or above
And this makes 2:35 really, really weird. Yes, characters with no items cannot on avarage do a thousand damage but you are putting a random level 1 character with no items against a 12 item combo with a 0.3% chance of occurring that's late enough in the run to take 1k damage and live, and you will break all watches too btw! which just makes this a gaint strawman argument of facing off a caughing baby against a full grown pitbull with guns
2:55 is just flat out wrong, yea, we have movement speed items but what we can see Elusive antlers doing is completely unique and there is nothing like it in the game. It is completely seperate in its source from monster tooth and it has its own unique thing to give it its effectiveness other then the flat out bonus of nearly all movement speed items
3:04 "we need more movement speed items" is not in any way correlated to the "antler shield and razorwire are the same" argument, it is in its own bubble around the item pool balance and the ladder exists as a counter argument to the opinion of antler shield being it's own unique and special nieche nothing else does and is not affiliated with former and vice versa
3:15 is just nonsensical. You say it as a way of saying that antler shield and razor wire are not the same item because they function the same but at the same time completely disregard this sentiment for Elusive antlers, almost as if it comes out of some sort of bias
3:24 is just COMPLETELY dismissing and ignoring Elusive antlers entire thing and instead focusing on the tiny side effect of its passive speed increase
3:34 this is like, fair. I get this, but the reasons it's important is to make the game loop feel better and more well adjusted to the games landscape, if anything this is directly AGAINST min maxing the game, and ensuring that people that don't minmax can also have a consistent experience that is able to be won by playing well and making smart decisions. This being a paid dlc doesn't make it irrelevant, if anything it makes it worse that a paid expansions can make the game feel more unfair and unbalanced
4:22 if anything printers are the largest victim of this, they're one of the most fundamentally unique and satisfying mechanics in the game, both adding strategic player expression to the game as being an amazing way to scratch the itch of the players to just get soemthing *right*, that final part of the run you're missing or something to fully propel it forward, they are transformative and by adding stuff that will directly not have effect from its existence lessens those gratifying moments
4:28 the dlc thing is weird, I don't see how it excuses any part of this item and just covering it all as "a new mechanic should be in the dlc" is very weird to me personally as the fundamental concept and mechanic is repeated but you yourself disagree with this idea so it's not really something that I truly have a say in
Argument of disabling the dlc or not buying it Is actually completely fair, like there really isn't anything to outright dismiss this or combat it, possibly the fact that it can way it down and it isn't really a part of any themeing but whatever tbh
5:39 Solo non competitive game =/= should need useless and unbalanced items that arnt fun either
5:45 this argument is admittedly usually delivered terribly, stuff happening from being hit can work well as some sort of a counter in damage or defense since you got hit (stealthkit/elixir) and this isn't incentivitising *to* get hit so its kind of a stinky argument, I agree, but if it isn't incentivicing it, it would as opposed to it, be some sort of counter to it or make it more forgiving which could be done by helping the player out in an offensive stand point but... It doesn't so that, and if it did it is extremely easy for it to be overtuned
6:21 banger argument actually! The game very much isn't balanced strictly around eclipse, as eclipse is balanced around the game and being able to enjoy the game how you want is objectively a good thing! Thumbs up
6:58 the reason this is very much different, is due to these defensive items having a job and strictly doing that job. Getting hit is punishing, that's what it is fundamentally and something like rose buckle is made to lessen that punishment and make it more forgiving, it isn't encouraging getting hit as much as letting the player walk away with a little bit of a cheek slap and saying to not do it again. Antler shield doesn't serve a unique purpose like that which will be used every time it needs to. Medkit is a great item because it heals when you get hit, which is when you need it!
7:20 (razor wire, all of this applies to razor wire) antler shield damage is utterly redundant because you're, well you're in power mode. Also I don't think the general consensus is that it's playing the game wrong, I haven't seen anyone say that and I know I'm less suseptible to stupid UA-cam comments saying stupid stuff because I'm not a youtubers, but I do spend a lot o hours every day in the commiunity and haven't seen this come up, sorry if it did because that's silly and dumb
8:04 damage items will increase your non antler shield damage more and more due to levels but will always be stagnant on antler shield. Idk you could say this about literally anything, damage items do make stuff deal more damage.
10:55 you are putting an antler shield with an enemy that deals 100 damage against a razor wire as level 1 commando. Then you crank it up to 1k damage taken where big issues arise because even though you've DRAMATICALLY scaled up the point in the run for antler shield, you do not apply the same bias to razor wire, you are treating them unevenly from a bias. But ya they are different that's fair thumbs up I agree
12:39 nearly all of the items here mentioned one after another are made entirely to lessen the punishment of getting hit while still having consequences, it is not incentivicing getting hit whatsoever
13:30 It is not a "generic movement speed item" by any means, arguably shaping up to the single most unique movement item in the game, you are ignoring its entire main effect for the sake of the argument
15:17 I tried the item out a lot, I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt but I honestly found the same issue you find in the opposite direction, it just wasn't fun to use, and I can't find another person who found having fun in using the item
15:21 this entire section is admittedly just kinda petty and shows that you're dismissing the new item for being a rework. While it may not have as many functional synergies with items, its concept is something very transformative to the entire gameplay loop, giving the player more expression and skill enabling to scouting, looting and fighting which is always a good quality! It feels good to be rewarded for thinking good and it will synergize with certain characters' abilities a lot aswell as freshen up the core feeling of looting and scouting as previously mentioned
Admittedly the commiunity sucks in this area, it's extremely easy to get tilted and frustrated and I don't think anyone can really blame you for it, nearly everything people say is meaningless nonsense with nothing behind it that doesn't have a reason for being what it is or any intention for helping people better understand. Please don't take this as any sort of attack, I do like you and I hope you're doing fine. ❤
Are you ok? Why did you spend this much time replying.
@@coopstain1728 have you never once consumed argumentative media in your life, nor have you never enjoyed a content creator and wanted to give them feedback on their videos properly?
“Is RND ok? Why did he spend this much time making this video?”
Can't imagine why anyone would talk in-depth about a topic in a video game they enjoy or give constructive criticism to a UA-camr they like watching.
Great comment but please but spaces between each of your points, it would make it so much easier to read
I ain't reading allat
people have tried buffing it's numbers and it every single time nearly always ended up still doing nothing, or being absurdly broken on mithrix, it's lowkey just fundamentally flawed
It can have a cap which scales with stacks
Like the main problem is that most of the times in later stages you wont even be able to take more hit than 1 or 3 without dying. Like I understand the why having a “unique” item over a generic one argument but antler shield is just the wrong item to take into the argument.
@@ROMYSjöstrand you can use jade elephant, engi turrets or opal to get damage out of it without risking your life though
@@aperson6562 sure it help but it’s most of the times not nearly enough to tank and even if you manage to get all the perfect defense item it just makes antler shield way to niche for needing all that item to work properly, it’s just not in my opinion a well designed item. If you are gonna have a unique item at least have it well designed for the game.
@@ROMYSjöstrand Are they literally just stacking antler shield and nothing else? I've had plenty of runs where I've been able to tank damage in later loops. Hell It's EASY to get that if you're stacking more than just offensive items.
The argument "It's a paid DLC, don't buy it if you don't like it" is just kinda bad. The point of a DLC is to make the game more fun to play, diluting the item pool and making it harder to get movement is simply not fun for most people, so it's probably good to get some more speed items in somehow.
Otherwise why should they change anything about the DLC at all? If you don't like the elites, chef or tons of bugs, just disable the DLC. It is not really a productive argument for designing the game.
Buffed/slightly reworked antler shield could probably work and be fun, making it into a movement speed item will also probably make fun. I like fun
Agreed. If there are aspects of the DLC that make the vast majority of the community disdain it and not want to play it, it's in the companies best interest to remedy it. Nobody quit playing for underwhelming items like bungus, aegis, roll of pennies, psg, vands, etc. "Just turn it off" shouldn't be a response to what is supposed to be additive to our enjoyment. We didn't pay for the DLC just to never play it.
I mean, if there are parts of a DLC you like and other things you do like, you can either install a mod to remedy or suck it up with one of 2 options.
The issue is that this item could be turned into a good item without it being completely reworked into a movement item. Nobody's fun is being reduced by this item being tweaked. Someone's fun is being reduced if this item is completely redone.
"Don't buy the dlc if it's bad" is a poor defense for anyone who bought it day 1 with an expectation of quality
And recommending a refund also isn't a great defense :/
@@logangagnepain7154 what would you change antler shields effect to, without making it redundant in the context of razor wire? On hit items that only sometimes help are kinda silly, especially in a game where you want to avoid taking hits from projectiles that can one shot you at harder difficulties.
I love razor wire btw especially for early game and tincture planula builds
Oh and MY fun is being affected.
Except that wasn't his argument at all
it’s ok rnd we all have our irrational hyperfixations, like I love Infinite from sonic forces and you love Antler Shield from Risk of Rain 2: Seekers of the Storm
Fr tho I actually agree a little bit that this DLC added a bunch of items themed around getting hit and people bitched about it because it’s different from the other items without really giving them a proper chance.
I’m a little split because I like what they’ve shown for elusive antlers but a more thought-out and buffed version of antler shield could have made for some fun tank REX builds or smth
@@fluxxi5289200% damage +50% every stack on top of 5 armor per stack would salvage the item imo but it would completely break Mithrix so I feel like this rework will be better for the health of the game.
Other items I fully agree on, bugged behavior or numbers are the only things weighing them down and people are overreacting for no reason
@@fluxxi5289 the issue with the items being themed around getting hit is that almost the entire rest of the game is themed around _not_ getting hit
@@mcawesome9705 This is definitely true to some degree, although I wonder how much of it is don't get hit vs don't take lethal damage, because there is a difference.
If you have warped echo, antler shield, and noxious thorn, the damage gets split up and inflicts multiple instances of the retaliatory effects. This is further improved by repulsion armor plating and razorwire, but it's still kinda shit right now anyway.
If the items were adjusted to focus on damage reduction and retaliation, like adding armor to antler shield or smth, it could make for an interesting build while still having the importance of not getting hit too much because you would still die.
Again, it's probably still better to just rework them into something that fits into the game better
his theme song a banger tho
You're not dumb, stupid or stinky for liking antlers, but the item effect absolutely is. The hp difference between the player and the monsters makes the effect kind of inherently bad- even if the numbers were better, we're talking about an item that works when you get hit by things without protecting you significantly from the hit. It's like the deformed, sad corpse of repulsion armor and tougher times- Less protection than the former, and odds not even that much better than the latter. I am one of many that are happy about the changes they proposed to it.
The buff it would need is so large it would have to get pushed into green tier
In a vacuum, sure. But a part of an argument he had is that it works well with damage reduction items like repulsion and rose buckler, as well as just survivors that have decent armor to begin with since the damage sent back is not affected by the adjusted numbers of these damage reduction items/survivors.
@@RosebudMartinimo you shouldn't have to build around a white item for it to be useable though
@nathanchen2824 crit glasses plus every single thing that requires crit to even proc, including the scythe and predatory to name some greens. Laser scope to name a red. Shatterspleen to name a yellow. Yet crit glasses are loved much more because it is balanced enough to be good.
@@RosebudMartin Hi I think you are not understanding what I was saying, I was saying that a white item should be helpful on its own without support. Crit glasses are 10% extra damage, so even if you don't have any synnergy for crits they are still helpful. Earlier you said antlers are bad in a vacuum and that's exactly how you should judge a white item imo. A white item can be a core part of your build like how you were talking with the laser scope/harvester's scythe/shatterspleen but a white item shouldn't need support of other items to function well. Laser scope/scythe/shatterspleen all need crit glasses to function, but crit glasses don't need any of those three to be good so in a vacuum crit glasses are a good white item. Not every white item is fantastic in a vacuum but nearly all of them (pre this new dlc) are useable in a vacuum, with the only exceptions I can think of being bungus (which is debatable especially since it can be turned into wungus), roll of pennies, and bison steak. The latter 2 aren't even good outside of a vacuum though and are just (intentionally) bad white items. To reiterate, white items should be useable in a vacuum and besides objectively bad ones all white items pre dlc follow that rule. The reason why crit glasses are loved so much/considered good in the first place is because they work so well in a vacuum
I think the game having an item that hurts enemies when you take damage is a good thing. Luckily that already exists in the form of razorwire
Also, elusive antler IS different than hoof, mocha, and drink because it gives barrier (defensive benefit) and extra speed buffs (growth nectar synergy)
there is no way you typed this out when it was mentioned in the video. but also, there is no way you typed it out period. how can razorwire and antler shield be the same but elusive antler is different than all the other movespeed items 💀💀
the rnd ragebait arc ?
Finally, infinite rnd content, we will be well fed for many winters
rndThursday lost with this one.
my argument is that antlers are Not Fun to use and getting more movement speed and better items Is Fun
He had a response that feels applicable in your case. The fact that scrappers and printers exist.
Antler shields with the false son are pretty peak tho, playing a self damaging build with him is honestly really powerful and this applys to the later atages, looped later stages I might add
@@RosebudMartin That's pretty bad.
@@Jpeg_skeleton scrappers are bad? Printers are bad?
@@RosebudMartin Having the upside to an item being that you can get rid of it for something better is pretty bad yeah.
3:33 is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard. "Oh, this part of the game is unfun? Too bad, you're probably just mad because you have to min max everything." I just want the game to be fun. Playing with no movement speed makes the game less fun, so I would prefer to have a movement speed item over worse razorwire. Also, the argument of "just play command/disable the dlc" is such garbage. I want to play the game as intended. I don't want to fully adjust the experience because the game itself is less fun.
Okay, so you want more items that give movement.
That doesn't mean you get to remove items and change them just because you want more items that do the thing you want.
I agree with the vid. Antlers COULD be good. The issue is a numbers thing. If you want more movement items, thats fine, but there are other ways to get what you want. All that we want is an item that already exists to be better.
The reason I uninstalled was that the game feels so awful every time you start because of how slow everything is.
I have zero doubt losing movement speed is among the worst experiences players can expect to have.
then just dont buy it? or use mods? or play a different game? or perhaps find creative ways to work around the problem? or maybe build your own perfect game? etc...
@@binig.4591 alternatively: Elusive Antlers
@@binig.4591 or, you know... the item is changed in a way that the majority prefers? I wonder what the simpler and overall more beneficial option here is...
"you're all wrong !!! this item is actually goated because [insert information that you would never know about without rolling stage 1s or modding in a test stage or reading through game code] !!!"
damn if only they actually, oh i don't know, PROPERLY DESCRIBED what the damn thing does LOL
and even then, even with buffed numbers or being in the right scenario to pick it up and stack it, it's mid at best
the only thing I can kind of agree on is that the reworked version could be fine without movement speed, IF the new effect with shield orbs is strong and it's moved into the green item tier so it doesn't dilute the white item pool
It's actually insane how off the item descriptions are for the dlc items.
I love rnd’s videos but anyone else think his argument against the balanced item pools a little extreme? Someone wanting a single item to be movement speed based especially one with a more interactive effect (even if it’s just collecting an orb) doesn’t automatically make them the “downfall of video games”, having a single item or item pools to be more balanced with utility, dmg and movement doesn’t automatically mean they’re trying to min max the whole game and take the fun out of it. Arguably I think it’s more fun having the ability to actually move around more and dodge attacks instead. It’s just the bad faith argument he put forward really rubbed me the wrong way
Exactly you cant be mad that a item is being changed but also use the argument of its just a game go play drizzle with command like its just a game so why does it matter if it is different?
Elusive Antlers will be similarly inconvenient as Hunter's Harpoon though, so I'd rather have a double down on making the original form better rather than balls that will yeet you around when you don't expect it, more often than not.
@@al-mungus677 true. lets just change all the items to be movespeed and damage so i don't have to use drizzle or command 👍👍. its just a game was totally the argument for the item change and not for the people who are arguing about "item dilution" and "the effect goes against how you should play ror2". very good comprehension we have 👍👍👍👍
claiming bad faith while being bad faith is crazyyyy.
the argument is not about "someone wanting a single item to be movement speed based", its about the people arguing the effect is bad because "we shouldn't reward getting hit" and "the item pool is diluted". you are the downfall of video games if you unironically believe that. the reason triple A games are all rehashed slop is because brain broken dopamine addicts can't handle anything that doesn't make brain go happy
@@rndThursday as someone who enjoys razorwire and items that activate on hit (ie. the Polaroid or swallowed penny from tboi) I don’t think taking damage is a good excuse for the items rework and agree with you but my comment is more about how you went about this. The first sentence literally talks about how your argument rubbed me the wrong way and continuing to call people “brain broken dopamine addicts” just seems unnecessary. Putting everyone who thinks rewarding the player for taking damage is bad (even tho it’s inevitable) a min maxer or likes the changes happening to a single item the downfall of gaming is just a lil extreme. I still stand by my original statement tho, having a more interactive movement speed item is good because it’s unique to that type of item, it shouldn’t have replaced antlers but I think the item should exist. Hopefully we can have an actual discussion about item reworks without the name calling.
your argument here seems to basically just boil down to "but if you have these other 10 items you can make antler shield usable!!". it's a white item that requires a ton of other items to be even moderately useful. in your given example a survivor has multiple damage, proc, and armor items, at which point why are you even bothering with antler shield?
Exactly, this logic is giving me Acrid blight flashbacks
Congratulations, you fail to see the point in your own argument. By your logic, Pocket ICBM is a bad red item that requires a ton of other items to be even moderately useful.
@@evellyinhelenoir8804 Icbm requires either playing engineer (oh god no) an atg/shrimp, a disposable missile launcher or fireworks to get instant value, and all of those ítems are good on his own without needing the others, also, it's unlikely you get icbm early enough to feel it as a red scrap, meanwhile antlers needs a lot more ítems, stacks of the item and since it is white you are still better off using a printer if you don't get the stacks
@@evellyinhelenoir8804 ICBM only needs a single one of several different items you could have and probably WILL have to instantly see impactful results and feel the item's effect (ATG will chunk health off of strong enemies in an instant, Plasma Shrimp will proc your other items out the ass and shred down health, even 1 Fireworks stack will sweep out crowds of grunts for you just by popping a capsule and let you ignore them entirely, DML will destroy armies, etc)
Antler Shield in its current state is more niche by a WIIIIDE margin and requires being band-aided by so many other items on top of trading other whites for multiple stacks of itself at once to make it "useful", but at that point the effect it gives you is still so weak let alone *unfun* that you have no reason to attempt this anyway unless you're just feeling a little silly; in a vacuum, sure, you *can* make it have a noticeable effect, but who is actually playing like that and waking up one morning thinking "I'll print 20 antler shields today and have fun doing it"
There should be bad items to make the good items more impactful, but imo they shouldn't be so bad it effectively doesn't do anything without going out of your way and rigging it up to life support to make its effect viable or even positively noticeable. Even tuning up its existing stats doesn't really do much because at the mid-to-late game the enemies that would hit you hard enough to get meaningful damage out of it will nearly one-shot you if not kill you outright anyway on top of having massive health pools compared to the damage they are dealing to you, the game is intentionally designed around enemies being able to instakill you easily which is why "don't get hit" is so prevalent, the only time you're gonna be tanking hits and having a good time is at the early game in which case you won't have access to a dozen stacks of Antler Shield
Antler Shield doesn't synergize with other items in a way where you can reasonably feel the positive effect of the synergy, you have to go out of your way to band-aid the item with other items that are good on their own (compared to Razorwire which works similarly, yet objectively better because you can use Helfire Tincture, a single other item, to spam out the razors while taking minimal damage- not to mention its immediate synergies with REX, Engineer, and Seeker)
I like the idea of tuning up its stats but also having it give you increased armor stats, then stacking it would become useful for the sake of the armor and the reflected damage becomes a nice bonus
@@evellyinhelenoir8804 ICBM needs one other item out of 3, or engi's harpoons. Antlers need a whole ass build and 20 stacks to work even remotely okay
Dude the hill you're dying on is barely classifiable as an hill
Also 3:40 this might be cinema
Just like how the antler shield is barely classifiable as a shield
Note: barely is an exaggeration used to match the sentence structure of the original comment. Trying to blow away enemy projectiles with just the breath from your lungs is more effective as a defense mechanism than this dumpster fire of an item.
Ngl I would rather lose a run than try and have fun with the playstyles antler shield and chronic expansion promote
Also just because an item is "unique" (it isn't btw) doesn't mean we should keep it. I could come up with an item idea that buffs your stats when you have no other items and no matter how you tweaked the numbers it would always be a bad idea fundamentally
I would've agreed with you until you started dissing chronic expansion, the most busted damage item in the game.
Also people want speed and damage items because that's what is fun to them. That's why people want more of it. That's why people talk about diluting the pool cause they abhor seeing garbage they can't and don't want to use.
I'm sorry but rnd's 1% opinion objectively makes the game less fun to 99% of players.
and thats what ive been saying. you and a bunch of people want your candy for dinner. i know, i get it. You THINK that's what you want, but when the game is boring and you can't quite put your finger on why, well....
8:09 no, you'd be dead, run over, but hey you may have taken away 100 hp from the 100,000 hp elder lemurian, because its still a chance.
In essence, antler shield is good if you can get every defensive item in the game and you have at least 11 antler shields; I'm seeing the strategy now, but I still think it's a bad item.
That's still not good do? I'd rather just have other damage items like glasses than get myself killed to oneshot a jellyfish
I understand the sentiment behind the video but the item’s “unique” effect is fundamentally terribly designed. The damage of the item being based on the enemy’s damage when enemy damage stats are pitifully low in comparison to their HP is just bad design (mithrix has a base HP of 1000 and a damage stat of 16, for example)
the item isn't even good at what it's meant to do and i think that's why everyone dislikes it
wow bro is saltier than the dead sea
I think its absolutely correct that we lack movespeed items, but the ones we do have are all already whites lmao
shoulda gave this effect to unstable transmitter
DOUBLING DOWN!?!
A Item that isn't Lunar that requires you to take damage from an enemy specifically, it doesn't nullify that damage upon activating, and then it does a teeny tiny portion of the enemies already small damage number back to that enemy, whose HP pool is MASSIVE. The amount of stacking it takes for Antler Shield to be even baseline usable throughout a run is insane. I would rather is be something that provides some utility than something that requires taking a hit from enemies getting me closer to losing the run.
Its not playing the game wrong if you get hit. That's not the point, but you don't WANT to get hit. Its not that you can't or don't get hit, but the closer your healthbar is to 0, the closer you are to LOSING. An item shouldn't be built around this unless its defensive or its a Lunar and its giving you some bonus in return. You could just make Antler reflect off all damage sources, but then its literally just enemy damage scaling Razorwire.
Its entirely different doing a Hellfire Tincture with Razorwire build and taking a set amount of damage you are accounting for to shred everything around you than it is to randomly get nuked by an Elder Lemurian only for a Coin Flip to determine if you are going to COUGH ON ITS HEALTHBAR.
Enemy HP scaling is far FAR greater than Enemy ATK scaling on purpose, because the game is built around the player massively increasing in damage over time, while not really massively increasing in survivability (most of the time at least).This item doesn't start strong, or even come close to scaling alongside enemies throughout a run, and even increasing its numbers isn't going to do too much.
I think if Antler Shield is to stay, it needs to be 75% base chance, and 150% base reflect. Each stack should grant 5% Chance and 25% Reflect. Going above 100% Chance should give it a chance to reflect twice and so on.
Antler Shield should've originally dropped while giving an armor increase, it would actually have a solid case in that scenario, you take less damage from all sources, and if you do get hit, you deal some damage back.
Your argument of this being a unique playstyle and it shouldn't be taken away, makes sense, until you realize that Razorwire just does it's job better.
Razorwire always procs off ANY damage source and targets everything in an expanding area and scaling DIRECTLY with YOUR damage, letting it shred things, while Antler requires an enemy to hurt you to only be a CHANCE to tickle them back, and while it may scale with some damage and the enemies damage, the amount of times you see it even working will be few and far between, yknow... due to the player not wanting to take damage from enemies in the first place.
And if this is bait, I fell for it wholeheartedly.
I believe antler shield needs a rework it is very similar to razorwire and we don’t need two items fulfilling the “get hit and deal damage back”niche.
However it should not be reworked into movement speed as we already have movement speed aswell. Instead I think something like “charging antlers” where running into enemy’s deals damage to them and the damage increases based on movement speed would be a much better addition as it would add more synergies to the item pool and I t would create a new unique style of play not shared by any other item.
I saw nothing wrong with your argument on the previous video. I agree that removing a unique effect in favor of a more generic speed up is boring, properly balancing the unique effect to make it actually be useful is a far better approach imo.
Me personally I'd rather have an item that benefits my run over another "unique" affect that only activates when I get hit
@@hambonepng1152you’ve just missed the point he was making the entire video
@@aperson6562 no man the item just sucks, in a game like risk of rain anything that activates only on getting hit is bad design, you shouldn't incentivise something that you're supposed to avoid just like how bungus sucks became you shouldn't ever be standing still. And the point he brought up about how items like rose buckler exists therefore we can't complain about useless items because there's other on hit items that are actually beneficial to your run is stupid, nobody is complaining about how antlers are an on hit effect, it's the fact they are the single most useless on hit activation in the game and they do nothing to actually benefit the player in the event where you inevitably take damage
@@hambonepng1152 but bungus existing allows for the fun afk engi build to exist. That’s the point he was making. If you had your way, sure, youd have your efficient small item pool, but that’s a whole build you’ve destroyed. There are ways to mitigate damage in the game(opal, jade elephant) and engi exists.
Not every item needs to be optimal or useful in every scenario, the whole point of a roguelike is to adapt to different scenarios that you face due to the inherent randomness. If every item was the optimal movement speed or damage item, what adapting is taking place? What variety exists between runs?
@@aperson6562 afk engi build and fun don't belong in the same sentence, I will never understand how engineer players gas lit the whole community into thinking this strategy was actually good past rainstorm, if you wanna purposefully ruin your run by printing 1000 bungus go ahead, just don't get mad at me for actually wanting to have good runs, the variation in runs comes from adapting to different scenarios like you said but getting an item like antler shield feels bad because it's bad 100% of the time
Can't wait for the video defending War Bonds dude, A tier bait
Also I did watch the full yap, for the record. Have you tried being a Sonic the Hedgehog youtuber? You'd fit in nicely
I take Antler Shield. I take 10 more Antler Shields. I fight Mithryx. He takes my Antler Shields. I shoot Mithryx. I taje 100% of my damage. I die because Mithryx has more health than me. 😢
I have so much respect for you. This is a raw as fuck rant and I can hear how much heart is in this. Always loved the streams. Love you Mr. Thursday
“Congratulations Lenny. Pet the mouse.” 🤣🤣🤣 I’m stealing that.
You changed a lot of minds on Longstanding Solitude, you're not cooking with Antler Shield.
Even if they increase the percentages, it rewards you for taking damage. Whether or not they changed Antlers, we definitely needed more mobility in the game, given how introcall movement speed can be to a run.
I don't personally care about an item being unique. I just don't want my item pool watered down by items that encourage my own death 😂
11:53 pet the mouse.. Holy hellfire tincture that was brutal
when i saw the antler shield-> elusive antlers rework i have to say i was quite happy, but watching this video has made me think a little more and im beginning to agree with rnd here
yes movement speed items are some of the rarest items in the game and so having a new one will always help, but even with seekers of the storm active i never really feel that much slower or unable to dodge enemy attacks. movement speed isn’t the only metric of mobility there’s plenty of other items that can help you move (feather for example) that i think are overlooked in the whole “there’s only 3 movement items” argument.
not only this, but also every survivor except engineer, captain and railgunner has a built-in dodge button on their utility and proper usage of that ability (and maybe a lucky hardlight afterburner (another mobility item btw!!)) can allow you to dodge most enemy attacks with little to no movement speed.
what im trying to say here is that speed isn’t everything in this game and trying to act like there is this obligation to fill a quota of speed items or suddenly the game is unbalanced is silly.
i would also like to mention that movement speed is exclusively tied to white items so far, and the dorito is a far more annoying and useless item than even current antler shield is, so imo giving the elusive antlers effect to a dorito rework could’ve been a lot more interesting due it adding a green movement speed item.
finally, rnd does make a good point in his argument as to why razorwire and antler shield are not the same item. razorwire is not built to counter high-damage attacks and so an item that can fill that niche is a genuinely good idea. i’ve never heard anyone complaining that razorwire exists even though it suffers from the same “you have to get hit to use it” problem (personally i think that antler shield is only receiving this much backlash is because it wasn’t hopoo that designed it, it was gearbox and everyone hates gearbox). with significant numbers adjustments to account for the massive gap between enemy damage and enemy health (buffing antler shield so it can actually do significant retaliation damage to a high-damage attack) it could actually make for a very interesting playstyle built around razorwire (to combat high- frequency low-damage hits) and antler shield (to combat low-frequency high-damage hits).
i do think maybe rnd needs to go relax for a bit after that “you are the fall of videogames” segment tho 😭😭
great vid really made me think about the genuine potential an item like antler shield could have 👍, i actually think it’s a shame it’s being reworked now
also chronic expansion slaps anyone that says otherwise clearly doesnt actually want new items in the game cos here we have a new damage item (another category of item that’s always asked for) that has a completely unique activation method that literally has synergy with just playing the game (you’re gonna be killing all the enemies anyway why complain about stacking damage while you kill them?) and people still find a way to complain about it (my tinfoil hat is again leading me to believe it’s because gearbox made the item)
You aren't dumb, stupid, or stinky.
…but a game needs to be balanced, and diluting the item pool with bad or niche items is not worth the trade-off. Speed is an essential part of ror2 and making it harder to get purely for niche items is not balanced.
Fyi I play monsoon on Xbox, so blacklists aren't an option for me; I bought the dlc for the skins, stages, items, and lore. I can't just say ‘yes’ to some items or skins and ‘no’ to others.
Your second argument; bustling fungus = slug, hoof = mocha = nrg drink. I disagree with all of those, which is why antler shield is not razor wire, but it is worse because razor wire’s niche is more likely to become useful. What is more likely, you finding a hellfire tincture or you finding an antler shield printer? Taking a stone golem’s punch to the balls and dealing 10% of my dead corpse’s hp to that golem is not useful.
Wait, how many items are required to make 1 white item good? I think that might finish off this argument. It is a white item that requires at least 5 other items to function well; that's not good.
Maybe it should be buffed, maybe the new elusive antlers should have been given to knockback fin, call it sprint-fin. You can make that comlaint, but raging about it just makes you seem more maniacle and less relatable. Or maybe I’m an idiot, who knows; I’d be willing to talk with you about it if you'd be up for that?
this is a roguelike PVE game. it is diametrically opposed to the genre to have it be balanced. the point is to have that rollercoaster of outcomes. is this the run where the stars align? or will i be punished for my hubris? will i be rewarded for making a gamble on an item that needs others to work well? sometimes. and the fact that it doesnt work everytime makes the times it does work feel better to me. hell, if you dont like using an item just scrap it. thats what i do with all of my PSGs except in like a handful of runs. the rng of run "quality" is a feature of the game, not a bug. its inherent to the genre
@ that is why I suggested making knockback fin into a speed item, since its mechanic isn't good to begin with.
But to tackle your broader issue, the game is meant to be balanced, all games should strive to be. The thing about roguelikes is that the randomness of the items is what makes it unbalanced; you shouldn't intentionally make bad items or extremely niche items to make the game unbalanced.
Yes, I scrap antler shield every time I get it because the item isn't good except if I run a specific build specifically for it. I would like to see it given a better use, and that is what the rework has done. Could they have just buffed the numbers? Yes, but having a reflection of damage dealt as a chance, with the reflection being so very low a percent when comparing your health to your enemies health, the item would have to have incredibly high numbers to even be useable. And all of this… for a white item.
@@Skele10bro yeah i think we just have different things we want out of a game. i disagree on what a healthy balance for a roguelike pve game is. thats okay though. different strokes for different folks and all that jazz. i appreciate that you shared. the devs have clearly expressed that they are moving in a direction of what you want. and ive stopped playing the game. the world goes on and everyone is happy
@alien5589 have you stopped playing the game as a result of the dlc, or was it before the dlc release? Or was it as a result of the dev notes, as you clearly don't like the direction they've taken it; you've peaked my interest.
Also, if you don't play the game anymore, then why are you watching Rnd? I'm... puzzled.
@@Skele10bro i stopped after a few hours of the dlc when it came out. i had like 400 or so hours in the game previously. ive been keeping an eye on the direction of the game since then. i really liked what the game was prior to the dlc, and some of the dlc itself was alright. it just felt a little undercooked + all the game breaking bugs. but it looks like where they are taking it is in a place where id rather just play a movement shooter instead. if its just going to boil down to atk>MS>def, with less option for build diversity, why play that when i can play something different that is specifically designed to scratch that same itch that they are moving towards. forgive my metaphor, im not sure if it translates outside of my head.
also there are no rules to who i can watch. youre not the chinese government... or are you...?
Gearbox genuinely listens to feedback, acknowledging that we NEEDED movement speed items in the DLC 2 item pool, and created an interesting item that isn’t just flat increase, and you have the nuts to tell the people who are happy about it “you are the fall of video games”
I love your videos but this is a bad look. I think you’re the one who’s getting too serious about video games
I’m still waiting for him to cook lmao jk I like the different take on it but I’d still prefer the change honestly
I mean you're still just wrong, also the problem with having less movement speed isn't "Minmaxxing" its the fact that movement speed is fun and an interactive form of defense where as antler shield is a poorly designed item on top of being too weak like you said. I do agree that "I don't like the idea of items incentivizing you to get hit" is a stupid argument but that still doesnt really help your case. This item is boring as hell, it isnt interesting or fun to use, it doesnt alter your playstyle, basically every movement speed item changes how you approach situations and makes it easier to loot a stage and get to the next quicker. It's just a bad idea for an item.
How the hell Antler Shield doesnt alter your playstyle? Have we watched the same video?
Antler shield would make sense if it was some weird Tougher Times, Single target Razor Wire Hybrid. When you reflect damage you shouldn't take that damage in the first place.
10%(+10% hyperbolic) chance to reflect 100%(+100%) of damage from the attack back at the attacker. Do not take damage when reflecting damage.
Boom you now have another source of 'dodge' for damage which can be helpful, at 10 stacks you have a 50% chance to negate an attack against you and deal 10x its damage back to the enemy attacking. It also would work great for Engineer turrets since it can help with being swarmed by weak enemies. And if you just have a couple its still a decent chance to negate damage which keeps it from being a trash tier white but you would probably need to scrap it before Mythrix unless its blacklisted.
Or maybe it would be better if it could reach 100% chance to reflect with damage negation, but has a cooldown that decreases as you stack along with increasing damage. So more like Safer Spaces. We have Mocha which is Goat Hoof mixed with Soldier Syringe. Why can't we get Tougher Times mixed with single target Razor Wire?
When I was first playing the new dlc I lost a run bc I thought when it said "reflect" I wouldn't take the hit. Damn blind pest hit like a truck.
@@crunchiez Exactly, when you see reflect you expect to not take damage in most games. Reflect is redirecting damage. A counter is taking damage and giving it back.
Yeah nah bro the numbers don't matter anything that only activates on you getting hit is a badly designed item unless its a passive defense increase like repulsion armor or tougher times, telling everybody who doesn't like the useless item to just play command and ruin the game or comparing it to healing and defense items is just dumb
3:26 that was kinda funny tho
When I first saw Antler Shield's effect I was under the impression that the damage you reflected was also lowered against you, like a more aggressive version of Tougher Times.
I think this would actually be an interesting effect, like if it had a 25% chance to halve the damage you took from an attack and deal the other half back to the source. (not sure on exact numbers, but you get the idea)
You gotta be rage baiting, this or your way too emotional about all this, and I didn't see the last vid, but I think I agree with you to some extent, for example the new antlers they propose I didn't like it, I think most items in the DLC don't need full reworks, chronic expansion is a ok item, just like fireworks it works well in a specific build, and it's okay to be like that, I know we have different opinions about, but I think we both agree it didn't needed to be changed, maybe mess a bit with the numbers to make it easier to use without a FMP, and antlers just needed some small changes, like most items in the DLC, as for the speed discussion I think I made clear that do understand and even agree with a lot of what you said, but you gotta keep the balance of the item pool simple for fun reasons, imagine if we're talking about damage, and we dilute the item pool such as getting damage items becomes more difficult and now you can't kill things cause you have a lot less damage, and without speed it becomes harder to dodge attacks, you gotta think of speed as defensive items, the DLC didn't add enough defensive items, it added reflecting damage, but you still take the damage, and yes speed is the best defence in the game, damage reduction is the second better mostly I believe because reduction rarely works exponentially like damage, and the DLC didn't solve this, so what I'm trying to say is in regards to speed, the DLC didn't add enough defense in the game, the most efficient way would be to add speed items, but since they wanted to create this tank build they should have added more armor itens, I still think it wouldn't hurt to give chance doll(passive) and luminous shot(after using secondary gains a temporary buff) speed, but for sure that antlers and noxious should give you armor in some way, imo thay should have changed bison steak and infusion to give a little armor as well, any ways, what I'm saying is that I understand your points and the ideas of the DLC and I agree that the dev team is going the wrong way to fixing the problems with the DLC, but you are being really weird about the response of the community, like what did you expect everyone to have a masters degree in game dev? Of course not, you talk a lot o shit too as I believe I explained in this comment, and to be clear I also think I must talk a lot of shit, your tier list vid made me reconsider a lot of what I was thinking about the expansion, before watching it I would be happy to see what they did to antlers, but you explained your points and it changed the way I saw the situation, I believe now I have a much better understanding of the game and the DLC thx to you, but now you talked a lot of shit, and to be fair I believe that came from a place of emotion, when I started writing this I also was very emotional, but I hope I have made myself clear, as one of the voices in this community you have the ability to talk to a lot of players and others important voices, I believe your opinions would make this conversation take a turn for the better but you gotta take your head out of your ass, or as we say in my country baixa a bola aí parceiro, I don't want all the items to change completely, and I believe you also don't, so now it's time to show your argument, talk to other voices in the community, with gearbox, I truly do believe your understanding of the DLC if presented correctly can make the next few updates much better
God forbid a man for trying to make a different build usable
if it isn't damage or movespeed i don't want it
Good job on farming my comment! Respectfully, I disagree with many arguments in the video but I do agree with your opinion as a whole.
The original idea of antlers is fundamentally flawed.
-Player has low hp and high damage, and enemies have low damage but high hp(in proportion to each other), so even increasing just the number on the Antlers will solve that issue, sure, however the numbers there would have to be absurd and look funny on a white item.
-The game isn’t fun without move speed. We need movement speed items for the game to feel faster paced and I personally hate slugging around the Stage 1 Shattered Abodes looking for loot, any movement speed will make me feel so much better than any amount of antler shields. Just adding a brand new speed item would solve the issue and Antelrs wouldn’t need the full rework in that case
-“if Antler shield is the same as Razor Wire then why Energy Drink isn’t the same as Hoof, they are both movement speed items”
Well yeah, so are ATG and Bands are both dps items just as Razor and Antlers- they are all dps items but ATG and Bands work in a very unique way, separate from each other but still synergize with each other. Antler shield and Razor do complement each other but there is no synergy, they don’t make each other stronger and very similar in concept. But why then hoof and Energy drink are ok? Because it’s very difficult to make a plain movement speed item for the white tier without overcomplicating things like whatever that green item does.
-“Just switch off DLC if you don’t like playing it”
I like DLC, I would just enjoy it more if items in it were more balanced. It’s important to have a balance between DPS, defensive and speed items for the game to feel fair. If on stage 5 the only speed item I got was Hunter’s… whatever it is, the Commencement would be just suffering and I would probably die due to RNG of item bloat. It’s not fun nor fair.
And I think I already yapped too much, but just in conclusion gonna add that I agree with you on your overall idea that Antlers should stay in the game. We need “bad”(niche) items to make the game more balanced and give opportunities for wacky builds because that’s also fun, but that shouldn’t take away from overall enjoyment of the game
I think a nice middle ground would be just adding another speed item and buff Antelers so they always proc and give 3-5 armour. But in the current state of things I will always take Elusive Antlers over Antler Shield
Maybe I’m really susceptible to internet people’s takes, but man, you really sold me on this one. Before this video I thought it was garbage, but now I’m on your side. It’s fun, it’s unique, and at its WORST, it’s still healthy to have “Bad” items for the balance of the game. I’ll be completely honest, the thing I’m MOST looking forward to with the Antler Shield rework is the barrier. Everyone is forgetting this is our third EVER barrier item in the whole game. If it was JUST speed, I’d legit rather have it the way it is now
This is all gibberish to me, but as a For Honor niche tech validity truther, I support this message
Even if you go through all the effort to make this item work in your run it's still not a very fun build lol. Getting hit is never that fun, even if it's "intended". I agree that the redesign is a little uninspired but there's no way you can make antler shield work imo
a lot of comments fail to realize that hes trashing that fact that they are reworking it into another move speed item. I have to agree with rnd with this one, we dont need to delete an item that fills a role that is supposed to compliment niche tank builds and convert into an "always good" item. imo, viable build diversity is kinda weak in ror2 if half of the item synergies that were intended never work very well, even with all the pieces on monsoon/rainstorm (think something like a nkahana's centric build). However, they definitely need to do more than just buff numbers.
While the item fundamentally kinda sucks with its description, it would be cool to have the antler shield still take up the mantle of "single target dps razor wire" which is what i assumed the intention behind the item. like instead of reflecting damage based on the targets damage, it could scale differently with max% hp or armor or something like that.
im not saying the item doesnt need to be reworked, but changing it completely into something as boring as a movement speed stat is just dumb
"Don't get hit" Chads when you take away their stupid teddy bears. Yeah who's tough now?
Yeah nah. As they are now they're just a free scrap, 0 reason to ever keep them
Rimworld mentioned, W
That and RoR2 are the two games I have 4 digits in hours on
we love rimworld
I HATE Disputed Origin's argument that items that reward you for being hit are "backwards" from a game design standpoint.
HP is a resource and a stat that should be play around like any other in the game, if the game rewarded more for being hit you wouldn't "become worse at the game", after all you are not always gonna have the items that make getting hit beneficial. It would incentivize you to play around with your HP to be able to gain utility or damage or any other thing you want more. And if you don't like that just don't pick up the items. I think gearbox should listen less to the people that play eclipse 8 as the standard, trying too hard to cater to them just leads to a more stale game for the sake of consistency. If they still want to make more movement speed items honestly I just wish Antler shield do both of the effects, both new and old, that way you can have a niche utility with the movement speed. It still wouldn't make the item that much better than a mocha and still retain identity and fun synergies.
99% of the time it was a useless effect that did barely anything. Name another item like that, you can't because Antler Shield was that useless.
I got one hit ko but antler shield reflected the damage and did 10% hp damage to the attacker.
DUDE I WAS CRACKING UP WHEN YOU EXPLAINED THE MOVEMENT SPEED EQUATION! LMAO!
idw I just like the movement speed and orb collecting more, having to get hit to do damage feels counterintuitive anyways but that's my opinion
at 9:24 when you said to use my brain, i took that personally and i am offended and unsubscribed
i was offended by this comment so i turned off mmyyy bnrbrbrasuidoghseanasnldfkjasdfhasofdiuakw;neiajwoenofia../,m,.,/'/m/
i would never say that to you king, its all these other people bby don't worry 😘😘😘😘
watching this felt like arguing with ones parent about something
People who play command on drizzle and people who like to min max their monsoon/eclipse runs both share the same game. Both people are having fun otherwise they wouldn't play the way they do. Saying the people who like the latter are dumb fun-haters isn't any more productive than those people complaining about diluted pools.
You've converted me. your ideas sound more fun than just balance between move speed, defense, and damage. Not every run needs to be good.
if comedic timing for my hubris is removed from the game, where is the REAL fun coming from?
He actually made some good points but also made me feel stupid in the process so L+ratio
nah king you the smartest keep your head and IQ up 😘😘💪💪
No shot this man made a video further defending the antler shield LMAO.
Never had an issue with antlers but the way you present it makes me more intrseted to fuck around with it. Cool vid Mr.rnd!
Edit: what was that end card 💀
I agree with every point made in this video. BUT, to play devil's advocate, the justification for Dio's being a good item when "you aren't supposed to get hit and incentivizing that is bad" is that Dio's falls into the category of penalty mitigation, that is to say, "you will always get hit, this makes getting hit less bad" (same group as ruckler and rap) whereas antlers and razor wire both deal damage so a hit which would kill you, still kills you. This of course is a terrible argument since it also applies to healing items which again will not save you from dying when you get chunked, but will reduce the penalty of getting hit which is generally accepted as unavoidable.
Living up to the name
The difference between healing items here, and razorwire/antlers is that they encourage you to take damage, in a game where you absolutely do not want to be hit, and will kill you in 2-5 hits depending on the enemy. Healing items are a "yeah im gonna get hit, so i'd like to recover that lost HP due to a mistake I made." where razorwire and antlers more specifically NEED you to take damage to kill enemies, where you might as well be dead anyway if that damage is shoddy at best.
I don't really know how else to articulate this point, so I'll leave it here.
@@nutty8871 firstly I'd like to note that none of what you said opposes my illustrated statements. Secondly I would like to point out that you are viewing the sole use of antlers/wire as active, as a primary damage source, a way to kill things, which I feel is unfair because as we all know you aren't supposed to get hit. In my mind the point of antlers/wire isn't to reward you for taking damage but to simply just act as a small circumstantial damage boost. Keeping in mind it is universally accepted that you will get hit consider that instead of trying to get hit for item value you just played like normal, then on the few times you do get hit the retribution damage helps you swiftly deal with whatever hit you to begin with, razorwire has a proc coefficient after all so it's just another roll to set up death mark.
@@freindlycommentator1710 I can understand that, but razorwire also doesn't deal much damage late game either. Antlers at least scale with damage per stack, but the issue, like razorwire, is that you will not see the damage being a reasonable amount without a large stack of these items. And if you're going to go print them, that becomes your main damage source.
I'm on your side, man
I hear you, brother
👑👑👑👑
i think my problem with this is that the problem with this is that antler shield goes against a main property of any game: is it fun? antler shield just isnt fun to use and isnt unique. oh cool. one projectile. awesome. you cant build it like you can build around things like gesture, fireworks, etc, without sacrificing 20 items to make antler shield a fun item.
I like the elusive antlers idea a lot more because it's not just a flat increase to move speed, and actually introduces a fun layer to the game of trying to chain together these orbs to get maximum value
The problem with Antler Shield is that it incentivizes assisted self-harm :(
I think rnd has us fooled, he set up this masterful bait for months now in his streams calling this item usable and good in order to set it up as ragebait for when Gearbox finally decided to fix the DLC and the items that are bad.
please keep defending antler shield its funny watching tryhards get mad at you in the comments 🙏🙏🙏🙏
6:34 “you shouldn’t incentivize getting hit” vs firework/ICBM/Remote Caffeinator drizzle god run
Command, drizzle, swarm, sacrifice. Stayed 20 minutes on stage one, wtf is playing the meta
Rnd thursday is my favourite wrong ror2 youtuber, from calling commando mid to calling knockback fin good to defending antler shield, holy moly bro doesnt miss with the being wrong 🔥🔥🔥
I like niche builds, but when it's a common item that requires me to have a VERY specific build/character I don't think it's healthy for the game. Saying you can scrap it isn't a very good argument either. A potential non-movespeed rework I saw someone suggest is chance to replenishing shield/give shield on hit. I don't think the pool NEEDS more movespeed but antler shield could be a movespeed item AND have interesting build potential they aren't mutually exclusive. Elusive antlers doesn't seem to be taking it in an interesting direction sadly, but everyone should agree it's better than what we have now.
I just want to say that no one likes to be hit.
7:52 He kinda cooked here
i think ultimately if the majority of a game's player base wants to play the game a certain way, its probably in the devs best interest to let them. if theres a huge amount of eclipse players, maybe dont make the eclipse experience worse. if theres a huge amount of people who hate your items, maybe change them and make them better suited to your player base. from a developer standpoint, you would want your players to like your dlc, buy it, and keep it enabled. this isnt rimworld. we have 2 dlcs. and they are not easy to make.
I looked and the new antlers and thought "oh god its a new hunters"
Why would you consider it a new hunter's? The only thing connecting them is movement speed. Antlers already has more effects as it has a base passive movespeed and not only are the orbs most likely spawned from something a bit more consistent than killing enemies (For some everything I see dismissing this item seems to insinuate that Elusive Antlers spawns the orbs on kill), but they also give some barrier.
Unless you mean it's another incosistent movement speed item that may not be worth it ever, which only thing I could say to that is I guess we'll have to wait and see (although it does sound like Antlers will actually be better than hunter's)
Devs probably mistook Knockback Fin with the Antlers cuz those are actually undefendable, Antlers indeed just need a better stat and stacking change. 2024 Antlers got the potential fr fr as the hip ones say.
ok but I dont wanna get hit for value equivalent to shooting for 1 second with commando
0:00 Yap start
16:20 Yap end
The beautiful thing abt the void item system that Hopoo introduced with SoTv is that the shittiest item, or something that you'd never consider taking can be worth picking up for its void variant. They should've just reworked it and kept its identity, or given it a dope void version and it'd give it a valid reason for being in the pool.
I really like sots rebalance mod that makes them give you speed depending on your armor and giving you a certain amount of armor on pick up, at least I think it was something like that. Armor and speed combined. Boom. brilliant solution.
i dislike the rework solely on the fact that the entire identity and idea of antlers was very cool and unique but now its a boring movement speed item that you can't have as part of a cool build. no one ever looked at goat hoof and said "wow thats perfect for my build!"
Even with better numbers it's just scrap in 99.9% situations bro
I agree antler shield deserves to stay as is and get a little buffed, but I am a more move speed items defender not from a like crunching numbers perspective but from a gamefeel perspective. The ratio of speed items pre-dlc had good gamefeel, felt like I was gaining speed at a rate that matched the increasing enemy spawns, post dlc the gamefeel is worse, I often find myself too slow to avoid the increased enemy spawns (and I be out here scrapping and printing, sometimes there just is no shmovement printer). I ain't saying I know the perfect solutions to all the problems, but, I wanted to voice my opinion on this cause Im coming at the move speed issue from a vibes angle and it seems like most arguments people have given you are a numbers angle. Good video, thanks for facilitating discussion.
3:09 We need more crit items. Besides glasses, the items that give crit are pretty rare (Shatterspleen, Predatory Instincts, Harvester Scythes, Irradiant Pearls and two equipments). Something like having one item that gives 5% crit and 5% damage, some item that gives 20% crit for a moment after killing an enemy or so, some item that crits bleeding enemies and gives 5% chance of bleed, other conditional crits and stuff like that.
Well, I think having more speed is more fun than a niche item that does damage after getting hit and I think 99% of people agree with this. Clearly, you're part of the other 1%
I just want Antler shield buffed, not made completely different
When I saw that gearbox was going to rework the antlers entirely it did feel wrong to me, this video made me understand why. It should definitely be buffed significantly rather than changed to something else imo
Can I just say I don’t care about items they added new boss, new maps and new music. That’s all what matter
Well since it's single target reflect, making it specialize at killing smaller enemies is good. No proc coefficient, ~600% base damage, 100% chance. This can sneeze back at lesser wisps and minor lemurians. This can proc gasoline or other non-proc items and make characters like Artificer and Railgunner better at small enemy control, while also working very well with tankier survivors.
..bro you cooked. we gotta get someone modding this.
Nah but like all of this for a shittier razorwire bruh 😭
maybe this isn’t that great, but It’s an idea that could work. On hit have a chance to reflect almost all of a hit (you take 5% enemy takes 95%), the chance of it proc-ing would be roughly 2x lower than a bear scaling the same way. It would overall be worse than a bear defensively but with the added perk of reflecting damage I’d imagine it would have a use (something along the lines of mocha to hoof)
The thing is about making "niche" dlcs - companies in the current climate need to sell every single dlc super well, otherwise they get fucking rekt. Even massive companies closed off or sold their IPs to someone else after a single flop. It's just not worth the risk in the developer's eyes. The content needs to appeal to the largest group of players possible
Just to add to the discussion, my take, I'm all for the rework under the specific notion that it doesn't serve a purpose. It didn't need to be a speed item, but it was a glorified white scrap due to how bad it was at it's base.
RoR2 really depends on it's items to be generally good and not specific to a strategy. And if they do support specific playstyles, they're normally red or lunar items, rare enough to not hinder the early game. I can see the Antlers moving up to a red though and rework it to be THE thorns build item. Which could also justify giving it more impactful buffs, like giving armor, and giving it better stats.
I get what you’re saying, the antlers were a “bad item” but not a bad IDEA of an item. If stacking antlers for return damage meant at much as generally stacking other white items, it could fit into armor/barrier/shield/med kit builds much better instead of changing it into something that fits everything.
"It's just a game"
Yeah??? And we all want to enjoy it too! Having a unique and extremely hard to build around item that's useless, versus one that makes the game more fun for everyone (movement speed is for more than mixmaxing!) doesn't seem like a "death of video games" type of ask. Most of your arguments seem to boil down to "I think the way you guys (most of the target audience) want to play the game is absurd, and the items should cater to me (a guy who is very good at not getting hit, thus making the antler shield worthless)."
I don't agree on Antlers but I do agree that the developers shouldn't homogenize the dlc items. They should definitely be unique items and not be just damage, defence or speed items. We need some cool new possible builds.
I absolutely agree with you, there are different ways to play and there are items that increase movement speed, but items with more unique effects are few and far between should be buffed accordingly
I respect that outro