Friend, I feel like you are the single best person on UA-cam in Christianity at avoiding strawman arguments. You are very good at recognizing and respecting different viewpoints.
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Does he though? He’s not Orthodox so he won’t understand every intricacy, but to say he uses a strawman doesn’t seem right either.
As a Catholic i really love the way you say your opinion without disrespecting the others denominations! I hope we have more people like you in the future, not agreeing with the others point of view sometimes but still being respectful.
100% why i listen to this channel. He does a greatt job of giving the information without to much bias. Obviously there is some bias but thats to be expected. He is human afterall
Keep in mind that the traditional Jewish listings of the 10 commandments also combine “have no other gods” and “graven images” just like the Catholics and Orthodox. And shortly after receiving the commandments, Moses was instructed to put cherubim statues atop the ark. It’s seems to me that the intent was to not worship the images in place of God, not that the images themselves were problematic.
The Orthodox and Catholic churches use different numbering systems. The reformed tradition and most other protestants use the orthodox one. The Catholics and Lutherans use the one you are referring to
@@JohnTDeckYou’re right, the Orthodox are different, which is surprising to me. Still though, the Jews; who I think should have been a topic of conversation; it is the Torah after all.
@@JohnTDeckthe Jewish one is a different one from the other two. They combine both "don't worship other gods" and "don't make idols" as the 2nd commandment, and also combine "don't covet your neighbour house" and "don't covet you neighbour wife" as the 10th, while the 1st is simply "I'm the Lord your God". The logic could still be the same of the Catholic and Lutheran way though
From a Catholic perspective, God commands the Israelites to not make idols “in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth…” Five chapters later he commands them to create images of cherubim for the tabernacle, an item in the temple of worship.
So we’re faced with two options here… Either: any and all art is bad. This is irreconcilable with many other sections of scripture. Or - there is a proper use of images and an improper use of images. Which is what played out in historic Judaism prior to the incarnation and is the historic Christian teaching as well.
As a protestant, I don't believe what you said justifies icon veneration. The difference is obvious : the images of cherubim were made because of God's command, but icons are made without the intervention of God. God didn't tell us to bow down to the icons like he said for the israelites so why do it if it's called a sin in the law ?
@@eliotchen-b9j nothing Christians are doing out of love for their creator is outside of the will of God. In fact displaying our love for God within and to his creation is how he commissioned us to commit ourselves to him. As he says in Matthew 25, the love that we show to those human beings who are the image of Christ we show to him.
@@eliotchen-b9j it’s about the reasoning that leads people to refuse to venerate icons. Venerating Christ, the icon of God, and venerating other human beings, the icons of Christ, is explicitly commanded in the scripture. The grace of God is actively present and working within his creation. From an Orthodox Christian perspective iconoclasm is a denial of this reality and a descent into Gnosticism (essentially calling God’s creation bad). It’s like a reverse idolatry. Both idolatry and iconoclasm are bad. Gods creation is not bad. It is good. But you can’t go too far with loving creation either that’s where you fall into idolatry. The reason why creation is good is because of God created it and because God works through it. The recognition of the proper place of Gods creation in right order with God is what iconography is all about.
Worth noting that part of the reason why the Early Church had icons was because images were effectively the language of the ancient world. The vast majority of people at that time were illiterate, so the best method for communicating scripture was through icons (i.e the sermon on the mount, the transfiguration of Christ, etc.) This was especially true before the biblical canon was formed.
@@tomtemple69 Our claims are not mutually exclusive, of course the early Church had scripture and was teaching it. The key phrase in my comment is "part of the reason", its not black and white.
@@tomtemple69 So depictions from scenes in the gospels do not convey anything? Let's face it, pictures are a universal way to evangelize so that language is not a barrier. And when I was growing up, even as a Baptist (now a traditional Catholic), the stories from the Bible that I can remember the best were the ones that had pictures for them (Noah's ark, the Nativity, etc.)
If you’re interested in looking into the shroud I *highly* recommend the podcast about it on Pints With Aquinas with Fr. Andrew Dalton. I’m not Catholic, but I loved that episode and was so enthralled for the whole three hours. It helped deepen my faith in the resurrection.
In regards to the Shroud of Turin you should look up the Pints with Aquinas episode with Father Andrew Dalton. Title should be “New Evidence for the Shroud” or something to that effect. I already believed it was a true relic of the Lord’s resurrection, but so much more-so after watching that. Enlightening either way whatever side you come out leaning towards
@@longiusaescius2537I agree that we need to have faith but Jesus did a lot of works to prove himself and Luke recorded a ton of them and said it was so that we can have certainty that Christ was lord. Maybe it’s best to leap straight from hearing the lord’s name to being willing to be a martyr, but most people are a process and need to have reasons why they believe in the first place then faith develops with trials.
The Hebrew word "pesel" in Exodus 20, often translated as "graven image," actually refers to idols, not images in general. The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, proves that the prohibition is against idolatry, not religious art. To go deeper, the three realms of the biblical world-picture, "the heavens above, the earth below, and the waters beneath the earth," are all noted in the first Creation story. If the LORD in His initial proclamation announces himself as the God of history, "Who brought you out of the land of Egypt," here the language implies that He is equally the God of the cosmos, not limited to one of its realms (in contrast, for example, to Aton, elevated by Akhenaten over all other gods of Egypt but still a solar deity). In Canaanite mythology, as in the corresponding mythologies of other ancient peoples, different gods presided over the different realms of creation: Baal over the land, Yamm over the sea, Mot over the underworld. The invocation here of pagan pantheons argues strongly that the ban against fashioning images is a ban against pagan idols and not, as some currents of later tradition concluded, a comprehensive prohibition of image-making.
I had the same concern on overcontextualizing on twitter last week and the guy I was DMing with got really offended at the comparison. But it's true, we shouldn't use context to say that the things God forbids are only forbidden in those contexts, like with homosexuality in 1st century Rome or idolatry in ancient pagan cultures. God forbids certain things regardless of their context, so using that reasoning always feels like a loophole. Glad someone else had the same thought!
All christians should observe the Sabbath/Sunday. Debating on the exact day itself is basically a technicality, but we should agree on that. That means avoiding non essential work and worldly tasks and devoting yourself to God.
We have the right to depict God in icons, because he came down to us in human form, and Jesus is God. “I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works for my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God." - Saint John of Damascus
@@supermanandbatmanishere did ya’ll forget that God literally asked Moses to construct 2 cherubim statues in the ark of the covenant ?? “Exodus 25:18-21 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.”
did God give that right to everyone? no. when moses went on top of the mountain to talk to God, does that mean we can or have the right to do the same? NO because it was something between God and moses it's as simple as that. this was a pacific demand of God, just because it says this doesn't mean will should to the same nor do we have the right or authority to do so. 2 commandment states that you cant make any images of God or Jesus @@naonaop3531
@@supermanandbatmanishere Do you know why your argument wouldn't stand up in first century Christianity? Because "the Bible" as such did not exist. The Old Testament Scriptures existed, but there was no New Testament to consult on matters like this. Most people were illiterate too. Bibles were rare and very expensive. No printing press. No paper.
as orthodox id say icons are a wonderful and necessary part of worship. not only are they beautiful pieces of art but convey biblical stories or lives of saints to the uneducated/those who cant read. also as someone with adhd, having something to focus on helps alot(i just want to say were not worshipping the pieces of wood, rather its just a tool we use). i would even go as far as to say statues are ok too(my family is mostly roman catholic so it doesn't bother me) also pls do a video on saints that would be cool ;)
No Christian should remain an iconoclast after reading 2 Chronicles chapter 3. The 1st and 2nd Commandments are against worshipping a false god, with or without an image... A Hindu, for example, is still an idolater even in the absence of images, for his god(s) are false. So, an idol is a false god and not an image, per se.
The part where you say that we're not meant to see Jesus because he's in heaven ignores: The appearance at Road to Damascus The appearance to John in revelation The Shroud of Turin The Shroud of Oviedo The Veil of Veronica Early Christian Iconography And most importantly, Eucharistic miracles
eucharestic mirracles are obviously not public revelation. and god personally revealing himself to you is different from making it part of orderd worship
I believe what you mean by "moderate iconoclast" is Iconomachy, the majority view of who history refers to as "iconoclasts". Most people who were labeled iconoclast were not truly iconoclasts. Iconoclasts are people who want to do away with images, while believers in iconomachy are okay with images as long as they are not objects of worship. Big difference that many Christian theologians overlook in church history, especially around the 7th century.
@@redeemedzoomer6053The icons on walls in Orthodox churches which you meantioned in the video are called "frescos" (fresco in singular) and we have one in our Lutheran church, and one in the neighboring village.
There are two stained glass windows in the Church I go to, one at each end, it is so tempting to idolise them, especially whilst singing hymns, I keep having to snap myself out of it.
3:54 Are you talking about the anathematizations of the Seventh Ecumenical Council? As far as I'm aware, there isn't a claim about damnation being made, it was just an anathema.
At the time anathemas WERE judgements of damnation. Per the contemporary Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, anathematizations at the time were either equivalent to or even beyond major excommunications. This was not the denial of the Eucharist and limiting of social engagement with the offender but the complete turning over of the offender to Satan citing Apostolic authority to loose and bind. Per the anathema formula: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment." To show you who else is worthy of anathema, the Declaration of Nicea 2 also anathematized another group of people: Arians. To question icon veneration in any way, shape, or form deemed the same punishmemt and eternal discipline as being the Arch-Heretic Arius himself or his followers.
A relevant note. Catholics would not separate the first and second commandment. They and Lutherans have a different numbering system for the 10 commandments
Also, is this Minecraft server open to anyone? I go to a very beautiful Baptist Church in real life, and I would love to build it on your server. Or at least, build something very similar to it.
As a strong Anglican Iconoclast, thank you for helping me see both sides of the debate, and understand better my Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic brothers and sisters better.
4:25 so either chose a council that was found to be heretical which was against the tradition of church which existed for centuries or the council which corrected the other and was held to be true for centuries until a few rebels came along and decided what they thought doctrine should be
Here's how to tell which sheep is John Knox: Kill an Enderman while it's holding a grass block. Place the block under John Knox and the other sheep. IIRC John Knox was red? Use a nametag to name John Knox.
I currently attend a non denominational church (I’m probably gonna switch to a more traditional church when I live on my own). I don’t think icon veneration is necessary, and I think if someone is not well catechized/gets carried away, they can start to worship saints instead of God, so I wouldn’t do that. However, icons and images of God are absolutely beautiful, and I will certainly adorn my future home with images of Christ and a saint of two.
I encourage you to choose a historic church that is still Protestant! High church/classical Protestantism defined our tradition for the vast majority of the last 500 years, and we need to restrengthen our historic denominations!
Funny thing is, that the Presbyterian church I went to last Sunday (It was on the Reconquista map) had stain glass artwork depicting Jesus and his apostles. 🤷🏻♂️
If people have problems with Icons depicting Christ the Savoir, then they should have a problem with God becoming an Icon (The Infinite, ungraspable, becoming Finite, the ungraspable becoming graspable.) What would be wrong is to depict God the Father (The Infinite, ungraspable)
As I understand it the Orthodox position isn’t that images represent the human nature of Christ, rather that because God became a living icon He was demonstrating that God can be imaged, which argumentation actually (contrary to Nestorianism) explicitly relies on Jesus being God. TL;DR Jesus is the image of God, therefore there can be images of God. This is the Orthodox position as I understand it.
The second part to the Orthodox position that’s vitally important is that by offering veneration to the images of Christ, you are venerating Christ. This is how by giving to the poor and showing love to other people you are showing love to Christ as it says in Matthew 25. Human beings are the images of Christ.
Been a Catholic for 25 years, still haven't seen a single person worshipping an icon, I have however seen the great harm environments without beauty and intercession from the saints can cause
Just a correction when you are referring to the second council of Nicea giving a anathema to those who do not venerate icons do you mean this “If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema.” If so then your statement at the start is incorrect, I could not find a anathema like you said.
The bishops of nicea 2 wrote to the queen as to what they meant by the word anathema in the council . They said it meant utter separation from God. They couldn't have been clearer
@@a15thcenturysuitofgothicarmor if you think a 6 minute video titled "debunking the filioque" is gonna be high quality apologetics then you might just an idiot
My primary issue with iconoclasm is that iconoclasts take issue with images of Christ or the saints but don’t seem to have a problem with a carving of a cross or a painting of an animal or something. If you’re taking a literalist reading of Deuteronomy 4:16-18 these are all the same thing. You’re not allowed paintings or depictions of anything at all. At least be consistent about it. Of course this would be a ridiculous position to take but then my following question is if iconoclasm is nonsensical if applied consistently - why be an iconoclast?
Being an iconoclast, even in a “moderate” position leads you to some bad places imo. Iconoclasm, taken to its natural conclusion can lead you to reject elements of Christianity that are essential. If we believe honor given to an icon cannot be given to the prototype, then it follows that any good deeds done on earth for people who are icons are not given to Christ as it says in Matthew. It’s the same argument. This leads to a pretty bleak final judgement for us all.
Byzantine iconoclastic movements were influenced by Islam and destroyed pretty much all the oldest Christian artwork save the Roman catacombs. The few icons that survived were kept in the isolated monasteries. So I personally don't look at the iconoclasm overall kindly. Lutheran position is best IMO.
I loved listening to this and reading the comments. I was feeling apathic and overwhelmed by mundane tasks lately but I was curious about this topic and was really surprised by the fiery debates in the comment section. I didn't know people were that passionate about icons. It lead me to pay more attention and do a bit of research. More and more the Holy Spirit is telling me art is good but worship of the creation rather than the Creator is wrong. As simple as that.
I have heard that the point of the commandement is that God tells us: I am not like those other gods you have heard about. I am not in the statue or the locket or the painting as many religions back then believed that their gods come to life when they are depicted or even written about (e.g Hieroglyphs)
6:34 Understanding this commandment as being about 'images of God' is not intuitive; it's a Protestant innovation. The commandment has historically (i.e. for the first 1,500 years of Christendom) been understood as being about making images (idols) and then believing that they are somehow actually housing gods (spirits) that have supernatural abilities. (EDIT: The reason why this was the historic understanding is, simply put, because it's what pagans practiced and it's what the Mosaic Law was differentiating the worship of YHWH from). No one in the history of Christendom has made an ikon or a statue and believed that it was haunted by the spirit of the saint that it portrayed. That would be idolatry.
Well the Israelites believed that the golden calf was an accurate representation of YHWH, and yet God still got very angry and was about to destroy them even when they believed that they were honouring God.
2nd commandment "well you know we shouldn't overcontextualize, no images means no images", 4th commandment "actually saturdays means sunday, protestants without context you know"
Speaking about Sabbath what do you think of celebrating Sabbath on Sunday, unlike Seventh Day Adventists? Suggestion for next video: *Why Sabbath is on Sunday - KingdomCraft*
Hoo boy, as an Orthodox Christian, you can bet this gets me fired up! I could go on and on about this topic, but I'll just say this. Icons are images of Christ and the saints. All humans are created in the image of God. Jesus is Christ, Jesus is God; therefore, Christ is God. Is it good to venerate (show respect and honor to) Christ? When you kiss an image of your grandmother who passed away, you are showing love to a person no longer present in this world. When you kiss your mother, you are showing honor and love through her to Christ, because she is created in God's image. You don't worship your mother by kissing her; nobody argues that. Not to mention, kissing has never equaled worship, period. In fact, in most cultures today kissing is a common way to show affection between family, friends, and even strangers. That's not how idols worked. An idol was an entity dependent on human service in exchange for requests to be fulfilled. Sacrifices were made to them; they were treated as a physical being. Icons do not function in that way. They are more similar to a picture of a loved one then to an ancient idol, both in appearance and function. You don't pray directly to an icon to get what you want-that's not how prayer works, first off, and second, A wooden icon is just another image of God, either directly (of Christ) or indirectly (of a saint, the Cross, etc.) (Also calling oneself an iconoclast technically means they are for the destruction of humanity, as humanity was created in the image of God. I know I sound like a broken record, but I digress.) If anybody is still reading, I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, I just love getting a chance to articulate my beliefs and understanding of the Orthodox Faith to outsiders; polite discourse is fine but I'd rather not deal with a bunch of negativity. I highly recommend the Lord of Spirits podcast episode on this very subject to anyone interested in understanding this further, and of course doing your own research.
People think catholics love icons, they forget the orthodox exist. Whenever there's an iconoclast, I just leave it to the orthodox to come defend icons and you guys do a very good job. Ofc i have to step in when you guys backstab us by calling statues graven images.
Yeah, the way I see it statues are more of a cultural thing. Especially with Orthodoxy being descended from very pagan areas (see: Greece, among many others), there's a natural aversion to statues, because that's what idols typically were. But as long as you aren't offering sacrifices and trying to make the statues do things for you, I don't really see the problem. Of course I'm not an expert, but I know a lot of really smart people who are pretty chill about statues. I mean, at my church we have a 5 foot tall icon of Christ that is hung on a cross, which we mainly use on Holy Friday, but is up all year by the candle stand where we pray for the departed. Not a statue, but close.
stop trying to justify this. God never condoned this action in anyway, making a icon of Jesus is idolatry. it isn't the same as kissing an image of your grandmother because 1st the image is of your grandmother is not what you think your grandmother looks like but is a 1 on 1 exact painting and 2 she isnt God. icons are a depiction of God and that's idolatry plane and simple, bowing down and kissing a statue is forbidden by God it isnt at all = to kissing your mother so i don't even know where your getting that from. God says to pray to him in your heart he never says "make an image of what you THINK i look like and plaster it all over the church walls". if Jesus is in your heart you don't need to make something to remind you of him, how do you know those pictors are not Satan? because they aint Jesus that for sure, if you bow down to something that is meant to depicted of Jesus even though you know it isnt Jesus its bad if make a stick man and say it reminds me of Jesus and what he did for me so i will place it all over a holy church even though there is absolutely no reason to do so do you think its the same, because fundamentally its the same, God clearly states you cant make icons of him plane n simple . stop trying to justify this.
Surrounded by roman-catholic churches in Europe, art and Christianity has always been inextricably linked to me. I was in the Saint-Jean-Baptiste Cathedral in Lyon when I realized that for the vast majority, this was the only place where they could see these colors and sculptures and hear these resonating sounds - it must have has such a far more significant impact to the people back then. I'm not a fan of the worship of Mary in my denomination, but when I saw the statue of Mary I was absolutely mesmerized. Which isn't to say that the second commandment should be ignored because the icons are beautiful, but I just can't imagine a church without these works. That being said, venerating them is wrong.
You are very anointed of God because there are things that we should really know their significance in other not to go into error. Just like in Proverbs Let your eyes look right on [with fixed purpose], and let your gaze be straight before you. Consider well the path of your feet, and let all your ways be established and ordered aright. Turn not aside to the right hand or to the left; remove your foot from evil. Proverbs 4:25-27 AMPC
As a LCMS Lutheran many of our churches have icons in the pastors office or chapel. We also crucifixes and regular crosses mixed so its not only one or the other. My church is Saint Michael's Lutheran Church and we have a huge stained glass of saint Michael the Arch Angel vanquishing the dragon as well as stained glass depicting the Holy Spirit as a dove. We also have literigcal banners with christian symbols.
Love your videos, Zoomer. I agree that it is important to, at the very least, be cognizant of images and depictions. Icono-skeptic is a great term 👍. As sinners, many things can become slippery slopes, icons included. We should bear that in mind and always weigh our intentions. Again, great video!
Really good point - as a protestant myself, I've noticed that we tend to approach spiritual things with caution, adopting a mindset of "we should avoid ABC even if it's technically acceptable, as it might lead to XYZ vice." On the other hand, Catholic and Orthodox lean towards the stance "ABC is justifiable and beneficial when used correctly, so there's no way we can condemn ABC." This difference may stem from the fact that Protestants 'lack' the guidance of a priest, universal magisterium, and a 'strong' tradition to rely on, leaving them to navigate these issues independently.
The Israelites made the golden calf in a misguided attempt to worship Yahweh which God condemns them for, so its pretty clear the Second Commandment forbids depicting God and worshiping said depiction. The EO basically argue this got overturned through the incarnation.
When you said that the second commandment (prot commandments) is redundant if it means the same thing as the first commandment, well, that's why we combined the two lol. 14:44
It’s hilarious how you say Calvinists have the “strongest doctrine of sin,” and yet you’re in communion with some of the worst idolaters and blasphemers in the PCUSA. Clearly, you don’t think strongly enough about sin to withdraw fellowship with such people. How ironic!
@@redeemedzoomer6053 But you ARE condoning it by sharing Eucharistic communion with these people. You’re saying you share Christ in common. This is against the Bible. It shows what hypocrites Calvinists are. That “tough on sin” stuff is nothing but empty talk.
@@redeemedzoomer6053God never commands us to take the offensive against apostate teaching or sin. Actually, he commands us not to be unequally yolked. You’re fighting a fight you will lose. It’s a waste of time. Find a local church that teaches doctrine from the original languages and stay away from these denominational movements.
So the literal definition of iconoclast is someone who destroys religious images. It is always amusing to me when people deem themselves iconoclasts, because in most cases it's merely ignorance and people assuming it just means against icons. As an Orthodox Christian of 10 years (I'm 15), I've grown up knowing iconoclasm to mean the destruction of, not just disagreement with, icons. So I'm genuinely curious, to any self-proclaimed "iconoclasts": from where did you hear and adopt the term iconoclast, and would you still use that term knowing the textbook definition? Not trying to insult anybody, just wondering how y'all were exposed to the concept of iconoclasm.
Calvinist Christian here, I actually first learned about iconoclasm in an ancient history class I was taking as a GPA booster (studying engineering = rough GPA) around the time I began converting to Christianity. I'd say I agree with Zoomer that "iconoskeptic" is probably a better word, since I don't agree with destroying beautiful traditional Christian artwork although I personally think there may be conflicts with the Second Commandment in regards to images of Jesus. Beautiful artwork, architecture, and music can point people to Christ as well as inspire Christians to grow in their faith/spread the Word. My belief is that the icons should not be an object of worship, but should instead simply be objects of cultural/historical beauty to preserve Church history point people towards faith.
@@bobbys_projectsI’m surprised that nobody has made complex words for this stuff thousands of years ago (to my knowledge). Im just confused to what the “do not make graven images of basically anything” means.
When you spoke about the crucifix, I am reminded of the words of Bishop Fulton Sheen (the great divorce of Jesus from the cross), who compared the United States to Jesus without the cross and the Soviet Union to the cross without Jesus. The Western world is singing hymns and taking blessings without Golgotha - renunciation and penance, a world without hell. On the other hand, the Eastern world is all suffering, which without Jesus is worthless. That is why, in my opinion, in Catholicism, not only the fact of the Resurrection is so important, but also the fact that Jesus Christ suffered so much for us.
What would your feelings about depictions of Jesus in books and similar materials? Even in a church without images of Christ it's common for parents to read their children picture book bibles with depictions of Christ in them, so is that ok?
As a fellow Believer, YTer, and MC player I'd love to join your server.... though I'll admit I had to pause when reading "iconoclast" and put two and five together, so not sure I'd fit in lo. Shalom Shalom! Thanks for continuing to see HIM and share your journey as you do.
@@catfinity8799 Totally! Though for the longest time I thought doxology was the study of Weiner dogs 😂. I'd also probably spend more time making tents where people can get what they need to keep doing amazing things rather than build something massive. Be a total blast though. ^.^
@@deacon6221 I genuinely have no idea. 😂 😆 I know that I love things from all the branches. The beauty of communion (I can't spell ecerist even with autocorrect..) from Catholic, I love the intentional design that tells a story in the structure and images of high churches, the intent to speak through the kochma of skill as much as beauty of the words. I love the relationship invitation focus of others, the community drive of others still. To Love GOD and to Love others in one symphony dance. I love the willingness and even the longing of low church to re-sing the songs and Psalms for each new generation. If I had to put a name on it, I'm closer to a Messianic Jew than anything, I guess. Though I'm not Jewish, I found more truth in JESUS' Bible (the TaNaK, or OT) than I ever have in the religion surrounding HIM. Which is sad because it all points to JESUS, from the Snake Crusher in the second movement (chapter 3) all the way to New Jerusalem in the final movements in Revelation (21 and 22). So, I really don't know what denomination I'd count as, can I say, "HIS" as my answer for what am I? If you have an answer, please let me know, because I'd say "Non-denominational" but between the politics and insanity I've been through with church branches, that's a no. Politics like that make me roll my eyes hard enough to see my own brain, so no clue. I Happy to be here though! The dead don't get to praise, those in Sheol don't get to enjoy the bountiful blessing. Tomorrow is promised to no one so that I'm awake today means HE saw fit to give me the day, so I get to use it to bless others as I am blessed. ^.^ TL, DR: No clue. But I am for The LORD. ^.^ (It's a face in case it's cut off in edit. ^.^)
@@LearndingLife Hey God bless you! I would actually recommend looking into orthodox Christianity. It retains much of the Jewish tradition of liturgy, incense and really seems to be at least visually the true third temple described in the Bible. Our churches have inscriptions on the walls of Cherubim and other biblical figures like Moses did in the Old Testament. Our theology also is a great symphony of Old Testament and New Testament showing how the Old Testament is predictive and the New Testament is fulfillment of the old prophecies. We also use beautiful chants which include the Psalms and the like. We’ve got a rich history as we are the descendants of the churches founded by the first Christian’s in Antioch, Ephesus, Thessaloniki and Corinth along with the rest. The goal of salvation for us is not to simply make it to heaven or to not go to hell, our goal is to achieve theosis (which means to be sanctified by God and his Holy Spirit) and to become like God in the sense that we strive to align our own will perfectly to that of God. I’d urge you just to watch some videos from Father Trenham at patristicnectsr he’s a great guy and really explained orthodoxy well to me. God bless and good day!
This is off topic from the video, but have you heard of Mike Winger and if so could you respond to his video about why he isn't a Calvinist (I personally found his arguments convincing) Love the vid!
I personally believe that icons are important means for preservation of the rich history of the church. Use of images for depicting the saints allows one to establish a continuity, which can be quite inspiring and if you believe that the Church is Christ's body on earth, having the building contain upon itself the information of the history of the Church memorialized in beauty is a good thing so people will remember it when it's needed. To worship an idol is of course be forbidden by the commandments and therefore an error, but you could place a bible on the pedestal and if a fool worships it in the church, it should not be burnt as an idol. The bible says you shouldn't worship false idols, but bible doesn't command you to erase history. History and knowledge are useful. Whether you choose to use them or worship them is ultimately up to you. I do of course agree that certain traditions do kind of look a lot like idol worship, especially with Catholics in regards to the intercession, but much like Catholics are prone to greatest of errors, they're also responsible for some of the greatest deeds as a result of that top-down structure.
Would more iconoclastic leaning Christians be against the Stations Of The Cross within churches? I can’t imagine a church without the Stations as I’m a Catholic and have only ever gone to Catholic churches and one or two COE churches but I guess it depends on their views
Yes, they are. I am in an Anglican group on facebook, and unfortunately it is overrun by presbyterians in disguise. All they ever do is complain about Anglicans who bow and genuflect. I posted a video of my church and they actually called our very large depiction of christ victorious on the cross an idol. They have even called the feast of the Holy Cross an idolatrous feast. They don't even like crosses. These people drive me insane. I can't even watch this video because, Lord forgive me, I despise puritans.
The best anti-icon video out there that I've ever seen. I appreciate the respect and reason shown in the video. I do have a couple of thoughts. 15:08 I get what you are saying, but I have to say, this is one issue where numbering the commandments might actually make a theological difference. Because in Catholicism, that Second Commandment is grouped with the First Commandment. The Catholic First Commandment runs something like this: don't worship anything other than God, including images of God. And then the Second Commandment is not taking His name in vain. 18:35 Okay, but I do think you're way overestimating the view Catholics have of icons. We don't believe that you need them. We just believe they are okay to have. Some Catholic churches do not have any icons.
Lutherans are not at all skeptical or averse towards icons. Most Lutherans and Lutheran churches have images of Christ, crucifixes, and the saints. We don't worship or venerate these images, but view them as beneficial to have as they set our minds on things above.
The Council of Hieria is only accepted by some and certainly does not meet the requirements of being an ecumenical council, therefore it is not binding. None of the patriarchs nor patriarchal representatives were present and Nicaea 2 rejects it later, truly ecumenical councils will never contradict each other.
The ecumenical council you are talking about don't say that. What it is meant to say is that you are going to hell if you think that its idol worship. It is worded awkwardly. 4:00
One google search on the Council of Heiria tells me exactly why we should’nt accept that council as ecumenical. Non of the five patriarchs were represented at Hieria. Its funny how the emperor who called the council was an iconoclast himself. There is evidence that iconoclasm as a concept came from the muslims and were adopted by christians in the east.
What do you think about Eucharistic miracles documented throughout the history in Catholic Church? The last one officially approved dates back in 1997 where host became heart muscle tissue and had white blood cells in there for years (and those dies out after few minutes person is dead). I mean that is pretty much in your face argument for the real presence of our Lord and Savior! :)
Good video. I am strongly against images of God, but it's so hard to hold that position when even many reformed people do not and some of their books and resources include images of God.
Wait, you can't say that "Why would he make a separate commandment for idolatry" argument while also acknowledging that you guys pulled that second commandment out of the first one and squished the last two together.
I often view it similar to music, where, when done properly, it is another form of worship. Now, it can be done wrong as well leading into idolatry and such.
Saying that you're depicting Christ in only his human nature feels Nestorian. How can you divide the natures of Christ, even in your painting? Also the only reason Jesus is the image of the father is because he is alive as the father is, a dead image could never be that perfect image. Only the true Jesus is that perfect image, not dead images that can't see or hear. "They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but cannot see. They have ears, but cannot hear, nor is there breath in their mouths. Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them."
Hey man, is your server open for bedrock? It’s fine if it’s not I would just like to join. I really need to put more Christian things in my life. And potentially pick up on some things
Hello, I'm a Catholic. I like your videos, they're quite entertaining to watch. I just wanted to point out what the Second Counsel of Nicaea really says about images: "If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema." That's it, nothing about going to hell for not kissing images (being anathema just means being excommunicated, not being damned to hell). We just venerate and show respect to the images for what they represent.
In the Declaration of the Second Council the heretic Arius and his followers are anathematized as well, meaning the following are as heinous as being an Arian: "We anathematize the introduced novelty of the revilers of Christians. We salute the venerable images. We place under anathema those who do not do this. Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about idols. Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images. Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols. Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods. Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God. Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols." This was a major, not minor excommunication. The contemporary Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi shows that major excommunication/anathema results in the subject being delivered to Satan by the authority of the Church, that "...we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church;".
I am an Orthodox and all i want to say is that icons are great, as you said they are like a glimpse into heaven, i dont agree with the protestants on a lot of things and that is one of them.
Here’s something a 38 year old dad and his 8 year old son can enjoy together while making dinner.
God bless your family sir.
nice
How was the dinner
i'd like to think he wasn't talking about himself but just being oddly suspific lol@@FlygonkingVGC
Chad move. 😎👉🏻👉🏻
"there is a huge statue right now they (the catholics) love their images" he says as there is a huge statue of himself also in view 😆
😂
had me dying
I didn’t notice that until it was too late 😂 that statue of me was built by my friend in 2016 way before my server was Christian
As Johnathan Pageau would say… “symbolism happens”. 😂
@redeemedzoomer6053 also I will make an icon of you next to Athanatius and venerate it.
Friend, I feel like you are the single best person on UA-cam in Christianity at avoiding strawman arguments. You are very good at recognizing and respecting different viewpoints.
No, he strawmans Orthodoxy every single time he talks about it.
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Does he though? He’s not Orthodox so he won’t understand every intricacy, but to say he uses a strawman doesn’t seem right either.
Orthochuds are after you now bro 😨
It's called steelmanning, and it is both good faith as well as effective rhetorically.
@@ek4676 Yes, he does. misunderstanding something is not the same as strawmanning.
As a Catholic i really love the way you say your opinion without disrespecting the others denominations! I hope we have more people like you in the future, not agreeing with the others point of view sometimes but still being respectful.
As a reformed Baptist, thank you for confirming he’s not accidentally giving a strawman of your beliefs.
@@loganjackson8764 May God bless you always! 🙏
100% why i listen to this channel. He does a greatt job of giving the information without to much bias. Obviously there is some bias but thats to be expected. He is human afterall
Keep in mind that the traditional Jewish listings of the 10 commandments also combine “have no other gods” and “graven images” just like the Catholics and Orthodox. And shortly after receiving the commandments, Moses was instructed to put cherubim statues atop the ark. It’s seems to me that the intent was to not worship the images in place of God, not that the images themselves were problematic.
The Orthodox and Catholic churches use different numbering systems. The reformed tradition and most other protestants use the orthodox one. The Catholics and Lutherans use the one you are referring to
@@JohnTDeckYou’re right, the Orthodox are different, which is surprising to me. Still though, the Jews; who I think should have been a topic of conversation; it is the Torah after all.
More evidence that Icons are not only Christian but Biblical.
@@JohnTDeckthe Jewish one is a different one from the other two. They combine both "don't worship other gods" and "don't make idols" as the 2nd commandment, and also combine "don't covet your neighbour house" and "don't covet you neighbour wife" as the 10th, while the 1st is simply "I'm the Lord your God". The logic could still be the same of the Catholic and Lutheran way though
Yeah, great point, good comment
As a Catholic, when I saw the title of the video, I literally said "Oh boy" out loud.
Yes, me too lmao
me too as orthodox lmao
my first words were “oh nah😮”
From a Catholic perspective, God commands the Israelites to not make idols “in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth…” Five chapters later he commands them to create images of cherubim for the tabernacle, an item in the temple of worship.
So we’re faced with two options here… Either: any and all art is bad. This is irreconcilable with many other sections of scripture. Or - there is a proper use of images and an improper use of images. Which is what played out in historic Judaism prior to the incarnation and is the historic Christian teaching as well.
As a protestant, I don't believe what you said justifies icon veneration. The difference is obvious : the images of cherubim were made because of God's command, but icons are made without the intervention of God. God didn't tell us to bow down to the icons like he said for the israelites so why do it if it's called a sin in the law ?
@@eliotchen-b9j nothing Christians are doing out of love for their creator is outside of the will of God. In fact displaying our love for God within and to his creation is how he commissioned us to commit ourselves to him. As he says in Matthew 25, the love that we show to those human beings who are the image of Christ we show to him.
@@harrygarris6921 But making icons wasn't a command from God so why is there anathema for those who don't venerate in actions ?
@@eliotchen-b9j it’s about the reasoning that leads people to refuse to venerate icons. Venerating Christ, the icon of God, and venerating other human beings, the icons of Christ, is explicitly commanded in the scripture. The grace of God is actively present and working within his creation. From an Orthodox Christian perspective iconoclasm is a denial of this reality and a descent into Gnosticism (essentially calling God’s creation bad). It’s like a reverse idolatry.
Both idolatry and iconoclasm are bad. Gods creation is not bad. It is good. But you can’t go too far with loving creation either that’s where you fall into idolatry. The reason why creation is good is because of God created it and because God works through it. The recognition of the proper place of Gods creation in right order with God is what iconography is all about.
Worth noting that part of the reason why the Early Church had icons was because images were effectively the language of the ancient world. The vast majority of people at that time were illiterate, so the best method for communicating scripture was through icons (i.e the sermon on the mount, the transfiguration of Christ, etc.) This was especially true before the biblical canon was formed.
that just sounds ridiculous
they apostles appointed pastors and elders at churches to communicate the Scripture... plus they had the old testament too
@@tomtemple69 Our claims are not mutually exclusive, of course the early Church had scripture and was teaching it. The key phrase in my comment is "part of the reason", its not black and white.
@@tomtemple69 Humans are visual learners. And you know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.
@@comicsans1689 pictures do not convey anything gospel related...
@@tomtemple69 So depictions from scenes in the gospels do not convey anything? Let's face it, pictures are a universal way to evangelize so that language is not a barrier. And when I was growing up, even as a Baptist (now a traditional Catholic), the stories from the Bible that I can remember the best were the ones that had pictures for them (Noah's ark, the Nativity, etc.)
If you’re interested in looking into the shroud I *highly* recommend the podcast about it on Pints With Aquinas with Fr. Andrew Dalton. I’m not Catholic, but I loved that episode and was so enthralled for the whole three hours. It helped deepen my faith in the resurrection.
Pints w Aquinas is amazing
Yes, I am catholic
@@ChimpOnComputer I’m not, just a follower of Christ but I love it too!
@@kamillelord3891Keep listening to him... 😏😏😏
You need to do a tier list of Christian universities
I second this!!
However it should be by dénomination because their would be to many to count
@@-AnimalLover- thanks
And a full tier list of heresies by how bad they are!
TCU has the hottest girls
Iconiclasts when they realize they form images in their head while reading the bible 😔
Good point!
Slowly becoming an orthodox
In regards to the Shroud of Turin you should look up the Pints with Aquinas episode with Father Andrew Dalton. Title should be “New Evidence for the Shroud” or something to that effect. I already believed it was a true relic of the Lord’s resurrection, but so much more-so after watching that. Enlightening either way whatever side you come out leaning towards
^
Yes! I just made a comment about this also, it was such an amazing discussion and I still remember gasping when he showed Jesus’ face!
the shroud being true is good but it's shouldn't be the reason for your faith
"blessed are those who have not seen and believe"
The shroud may be the most underrated thing in the Christian world today.
@@longiusaescius2537I agree that we need to have faith but Jesus did a lot of works to prove himself and Luke recorded a ton of them and said it was so that we can have certainty that Christ was lord. Maybe it’s best to leap straight from hearing the lord’s name to being willing to be a martyr, but most people are a process and need to have reasons why they believe in the first place then faith develops with trials.
The Hebrew word "pesel" in Exodus 20, often translated as "graven image," actually refers to idols, not images in general. The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, proves that the prohibition is against idolatry, not religious art.
To go deeper, the three realms of the biblical world-picture, "the heavens above, the earth below, and the waters beneath the earth," are all noted in the first Creation story. If the LORD in His initial proclamation announces himself as the God of history, "Who brought you out of the land of Egypt," here the language implies that He is equally the God of the cosmos, not limited to one of its realms (in contrast, for example, to Aton, elevated by Akhenaten over all other gods of Egypt but still a solar deity). In Canaanite mythology, as in the corresponding mythologies of other ancient peoples, different gods presided over the different realms of creation: Baal over the land, Yamm over the sea, Mot over the underworld. The invocation here of pagan pantheons argues strongly that the ban against fashioning images is a ban against pagan idols and not, as some currents of later tradition concluded, a comprehensive prohibition of image-making.
I had the same concern on overcontextualizing on twitter last week and the guy I was DMing with got really offended at the comparison. But it's true, we shouldn't use context to say that the things God forbids are only forbidden in those contexts, like with homosexuality in 1st century Rome or idolatry in ancient pagan cultures. God forbids certain things regardless of their context, so using that reasoning always feels like a loophole. Glad someone else had the same thought!
Environments have so much of an effect on us.
I side with the beautiful icons personally.
Great point
Beauty is transcendent.
All christians should observe the Sabbath/Sunday. Debating on the exact day itself is basically a technicality, but we should agree on that. That means avoiding non essential work and worldly tasks and devoting yourself to God.
I just realized that the change from Saturday to Sunday is a reference to the change from death to life
We have the right to depict God in icons, because he came down to us in human form, and Jesus is God. “I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works for my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God." - Saint John of Damascus
He came to LIVE IN MATTER, 2 natures, one from heaven & His temple aka body on earth which He actually left with
idc what he said what did the bible say?
@@supermanandbatmanishere did ya’ll forget that God literally asked Moses to construct 2 cherubim statues in the ark of the covenant ?? “Exodus 25:18-21
And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.”
did God give that right to everyone? no. when moses went on top of the mountain to talk to God, does that mean we can or have the right to do the same? NO because it was something between God and moses it's as simple as that. this was a pacific demand of God, just because it says this doesn't mean will should to the same nor do we have the right or authority to do so. 2 commandment states that you cant make any images of God or Jesus @@naonaop3531
@@supermanandbatmanishere Do you know why your argument wouldn't stand up in first century Christianity? Because "the Bible" as such did not exist. The Old Testament Scriptures existed, but there was no New Testament to consult on matters like this. Most people were illiterate too. Bibles were rare and very expensive. No printing press. No paper.
as orthodox id say icons are a wonderful and necessary part of worship. not only are they beautiful pieces of art but convey biblical stories or lives of saints to the uneducated/those who cant read. also as someone with adhd, having something to focus on helps alot(i just want to say were not worshipping the pieces of wood, rather its just a tool we use). i would even go as far as to say statues are ok too(my family is mostly roman catholic so it doesn't bother me)
also pls do a video on saints that would be cool ;)
Plus, the matter has been decided by a council 1200 years ago and it was a settled matter for 700 years until the protestants came along
@OkPe-ww5rsstill ok, but it is better to have a for concentration and help you to defeat the devil.
idolatry
@@supermanandbatmanishere no we don't worship/venerate the wood ,just the depiction.. like how you respect photos of loved ones
@@komnennos Scripture is always good for correction and for reteaching.
No Christian should remain an iconoclast after reading 2 Chronicles chapter 3. The 1st and 2nd Commandments are against worshipping a false god, with or without an image... A Hindu, for example, is still an idolater even in the absence of images, for his god(s) are false. So, an idol is a false god and not an image, per se.
My church literally has a stained glass window of the Moon Landing
Bruh😂
Send us a picture
The part where you say that we're not meant to see Jesus because he's in heaven ignores:
The appearance at Road to Damascus
The appearance to John in revelation
The Shroud of Turin
The Shroud of Oviedo
The Veil of Veronica
Early Christian Iconography
And most importantly, Eucharistic miracles
he l\obviously doesn't believe in eucharistic miracles
Unfortunately
eucharestic mirracles are obviously not public revelation. and god personally revealing himself to you is different from making it part of orderd worship
Jesus: Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God
Cessasionists, Palamites and iconoclasts be like: No
that doesn't justify icons
I believe what you mean by "moderate iconoclast" is Iconomachy, the majority view of who history refers to as "iconoclasts". Most people who were labeled iconoclast were not truly iconoclasts. Iconoclasts are people who want to do away with images, while believers in iconomachy are okay with images as long as they are not objects of worship. Big difference that many Christian theologians overlook in church history, especially around the 7th century.
Well no I’m opposed to all images of God
We Lutherans would be the Iconomachs. We are not opposed to icons, but only to their veneration.
@@redeemedzoomer6053The icons on walls in Orthodox churches which you meantioned in the video are called "frescos" (fresco in singular) and we have one in our Lutheran church, and one in the neighboring village.
There are two stained glass windows in the Church I go to, one at each end, it is so tempting to idolise them, especially whilst singing hymns, I keep having to snap myself out of it.
3:54 Are you talking about the anathematizations of the Seventh Ecumenical Council? As far as I'm aware, there isn't a claim about damnation being made, it was just an anathema.
At the time anathemas WERE judgements of damnation.
Per the contemporary Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, anathematizations at the time were either equivalent to or even beyond major excommunications. This was not the denial of the Eucharist and limiting of social engagement with the offender but the complete turning over of the offender to Satan citing Apostolic authority to loose and bind. Per the anathema formula: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."
To show you who else is worthy of anathema, the Declaration of Nicea 2 also anathematized another group of people: Arians. To question icon veneration in any way, shape, or form deemed the same punishmemt and eternal discipline as being the Arch-Heretic Arius himself or his followers.
A relevant note. Catholics would not separate the first and second commandment. They and Lutherans have a different numbering system for the 10 commandments
Also, is this Minecraft server open to anyone? I go to a very beautiful Baptist Church in real life, and I would love to build it on your server. Or at least, build something very similar to it.
It is. There’s a video on how to join.
@@hismajesty6272 What’s the name of the video? Haven’t found it yet.
As a strong Anglican Iconoclast, thank you for helping me see both sides of the debate, and understand better my Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic brothers and sisters better.
Personally i see the icons as depiction of history and to remind us of what Jesus did for us
4:25 so either chose a council that was found to be heretical which was against the tradition of church which existed for centuries or the council which corrected the other and was held to be true for centuries until a few rebels came along and decided what they thought doctrine should be
Here's how to tell which sheep is John Knox: Kill an Enderman while it's holding a grass block. Place the block under John Knox and the other sheep. IIRC John Knox was red? Use a nametag to name John Knox.
Irish Catholics also use the Celtic cross.
I honestly love this! Young men building virtual churches and discussing the things of God. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I currently attend a non denominational church (I’m probably gonna switch to a more traditional church when I live on my own). I don’t think icon veneration is necessary, and I think if someone is not well catechized/gets carried away, they can start to worship saints instead of God, so I wouldn’t do that. However, icons and images of God are absolutely beautiful, and I will certainly adorn my future home with images of Christ and a saint of two.
“worship of Saints” isnt real. just another made up thing by schizophrenic protestants.
I encourage you to choose a historic church that is still Protestant! High church/classical Protestantism defined our tradition for the vast majority of the last 500 years, and we need to restrengthen our historic denominations!
@@fighterofthenightman1057 why would you want a church defining tradition for 500 years instead of one defining tradition for 2000 years?
Well, I guess the problem is how you catechize people then.
@@TheMacDonald22because I don't agree with the doctrine of catholicism
What do iconoclasts think about having nativity scenes up for Christmas and having a little baby Jesus model?
I’m the weird one in my family for thinking we shouldn’t use them. We’re all Baptist though.
I wouldn’t do that myself
I guess I better tell grandma to take down her nativity scene before she ends up committing idolatry...
I as a Protestant iconoclast, I am very against them, but some others disagree with me.
Calvinism fan vs. Catholicism enjoyer
Vs Orthodoxy Enjoyer
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Better than a prot that's for sure
Funny thing is, that the Presbyterian church I went to last Sunday (It was on the Reconquista map) had stain glass artwork depicting Jesus and his apostles. 🤷🏻♂️
If people have problems with Icons depicting Christ the Savoir, then they should have a problem with God becoming an Icon (The Infinite, ungraspable, becoming Finite, the ungraspable becoming graspable.) What would be wrong is to depict God the Father (The Infinite, ungraspable)
As I understand it the Orthodox position isn’t that images represent the human nature of Christ, rather that because God became a living icon He was demonstrating that God can be imaged, which argumentation actually (contrary to Nestorianism) explicitly relies on Jesus being God.
TL;DR Jesus is the image of God, therefore there can be images of God. This is the Orthodox position as I understand it.
The second part to the Orthodox position that’s vitally important is that by offering veneration to the images of Christ, you are venerating Christ. This is how by giving to the poor and showing love to other people you are showing love to Christ as it says in Matthew 25. Human beings are the images of Christ.
Been a Catholic for 25 years, still haven't seen a single person worshipping an icon, I have however seen the great harm environments without beauty and intercession from the saints can cause
So true. Just Prot cope.
Just a correction when you are referring to the second council of Nicea giving a anathema to those who do not venerate icons do you mean this “If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema.” If so then your statement at the start is incorrect, I could not find a anathema like you said.
When the word venerate appears in nicea II it’s generally for the word proskynesis, referring to prostration and kissing.
The bishops of nicea 2 wrote to the queen as to what they meant by the word anathema in the council . They said it meant utter separation from God. They couldn't have been clearer
*Kyle has entered the chat*
kyle converted like last tuesday and makes really shallow apologetics videos
@@buffcommie942 🧢
@@a15thcenturysuitofgothicarmor if you think a 6 minute video titled "debunking the filioque" is gonna be high quality apologetics then you might just an idiot
Imagine if it was customary for every single human on Earth to just collectively vanish for a few hours every week.
My primary issue with iconoclasm is that iconoclasts take issue with images of Christ or the saints but don’t seem to have a problem with a carving of a cross or a painting of an animal or something. If you’re taking a literalist reading of Deuteronomy 4:16-18 these are all the same thing. You’re not allowed paintings or depictions of anything at all. At least be consistent about it.
Of course this would be a ridiculous position to take but then my following question is if iconoclasm is nonsensical if applied consistently - why be an iconoclast?
Iconoclasts may as well become Muslims.
Being an iconoclast, even in a “moderate” position leads you to some bad places imo. Iconoclasm, taken to its natural conclusion can lead you to reject elements of Christianity that are essential. If we believe honor given to an icon cannot be given to the prototype, then it follows that any good deeds done on earth for people who are icons are not given to Christ as it says in Matthew. It’s the same argument. This leads to a pretty bleak final judgement for us all.
final judgement cant be based on any actions we do to others since all of our actions are inherently sinful.
@@internetenjoyer1044 not for the regenerate Christian. He is a new creation.
@@internetenjoyer1044Need you to read Matthew 25:31-46!
I would like to see you do a video about shroud of turin.
Byzantine iconoclastic movements were influenced by Islam and destroyed pretty much all the oldest Christian artwork save the Roman catacombs. The few icons that survived were kept in the isolated monasteries. So I personally don't look at the iconoclasm overall kindly. Lutheran position is best IMO.
Lets be honest, we all think we are theological geniuses after watching reedemed zoomer.
Not really
I literally become John Calvin every time I watch a video.
No, Read a book dude.
no
I don’t at all lol
The nose rule was the funniest part of the icon saga
I loved listening to this and reading the comments. I was feeling apathic and overwhelmed by mundane tasks lately but I was curious about this topic and was really surprised by the fiery debates in the comment section. I didn't know people were that passionate about icons. It lead me to pay more attention and do a bit of research. More and more the Holy Spirit is telling me art is good but worship of the creation rather than the Creator is wrong. As simple as that.
For the Shroud of Turin I would look up Barry Schwartz’s Ted talk and Fr. Robert Spitzer’s presentation.
I have heard that the point of the commandement is that God tells us: I am not like those other gods you have heard about. I am not in the statue or the locket or the painting as many religions back then believed that their gods come to life when they are depicted or even written about (e.g Hieroglyphs)
6:34 Understanding this commandment as being about 'images of God' is not intuitive; it's a Protestant innovation. The commandment has historically (i.e. for the first 1,500 years of Christendom) been understood as being about making images (idols) and then believing that they are somehow actually housing gods (spirits) that have supernatural abilities. (EDIT: The reason why this was the historic understanding is, simply put, because it's what pagans practiced and it's what the Mosaic Law was differentiating the worship of YHWH from). No one in the history of Christendom has made an ikon or a statue and believed that it was haunted by the spirit of the saint that it portrayed. That would be idolatry.
Well the Israelites believed that the golden calf was an accurate representation of YHWH, and yet God still got very angry and was about to destroy them even when they believed that they were honouring God.
@@Postenebraslux-n4y that's because they did the breathing in the nostrils thing and thought the bull WAS Jahweh
2nd commandment "well you know we shouldn't overcontextualize, no images means no images", 4th commandment "actually saturdays means sunday, protestants without context you know"
2:45 I am a dwarf and I'm digging a hole.
Speaking about Sabbath what do you think of celebrating Sabbath on Sunday, unlike Seventh Day Adventists?
Suggestion for next video: *Why Sabbath is on Sunday - KingdomCraft*
I propose the ultimate solution. Not caring whether people have images or not, so long as they are respectful images of worship.
**Minecraft church server exists**
- Freemasons have entered the chat. 😄
bruh
Hoo boy, as an Orthodox Christian, you can bet this gets me fired up! I could go on and on about this topic, but I'll just say this. Icons are images of Christ and the saints. All humans are created in the image of God. Jesus is Christ, Jesus is God; therefore, Christ is God. Is it good to venerate (show respect and honor to) Christ? When you kiss an image of your grandmother who passed away, you are showing love to a person no longer present in this world. When you kiss your mother, you are showing honor and love through her to Christ, because she is created in God's image. You don't worship your mother by kissing her; nobody argues that. Not to mention, kissing has never equaled worship, period. In fact, in most cultures today kissing is a common way to show affection between family, friends, and even strangers. That's not how idols worked. An idol was an entity dependent on human service in exchange for requests to be fulfilled. Sacrifices were made to them; they were treated as a physical being. Icons do not function in that way. They are more similar to a picture of a loved one then to an ancient idol, both in appearance and function. You don't pray directly to an icon to get what you want-that's not how prayer works, first off, and second, A wooden icon is just another image of God, either directly (of Christ) or indirectly (of a saint, the Cross, etc.) (Also calling oneself an iconoclast technically means they are for the destruction of humanity, as humanity was created in the image of God. I know I sound like a broken record, but I digress.)
If anybody is still reading, I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, I just love getting a chance to articulate my beliefs and understanding of the Orthodox Faith to outsiders; polite discourse is fine but I'd rather not deal with a bunch of negativity. I highly recommend the Lord of Spirits podcast episode on this very subject to anyone interested in understanding this further, and of course doing your own research.
People think catholics love icons, they forget the orthodox exist. Whenever there's an iconoclast, I just leave it to the orthodox to come defend icons and you guys do a very good job. Ofc i have to step in when you guys backstab us by calling statues graven images.
Yeah, the way I see it statues are more of a cultural thing. Especially with Orthodoxy being descended from very pagan areas (see: Greece, among many others), there's a natural aversion to statues, because that's what idols typically were. But as long as you aren't offering sacrifices and trying to make the statues do things for you, I don't really see the problem. Of course I'm not an expert, but I know a lot of really smart people who are pretty chill about statues. I mean, at my church we have a 5 foot tall icon of Christ that is hung on a cross, which we mainly use on Holy Friday, but is up all year by the candle stand where we pray for the departed. Not a statue, but close.
@@miyannapittman5580 I mean Rome and Greece are pretty much very similar when it comes to their pagan cultures.
stop trying to justify this. God never condoned this action in anyway, making a icon of Jesus is idolatry. it isn't the same as kissing an image of your grandmother because 1st the image is of your grandmother is not what you think your grandmother looks like but is a 1 on 1 exact painting and 2 she isnt God. icons are a depiction of God and that's idolatry plane and simple, bowing down and kissing a statue is forbidden by God it isnt at all = to kissing your mother so i don't even know where your getting that from. God says to pray to him in your heart he never says "make an image of what you THINK i look like and plaster it all over the church walls". if Jesus is in your heart you don't need to make something to remind you of him, how do you know those pictors are not Satan? because they aint Jesus that for sure, if you bow down to something that is meant to depicted of Jesus even though you know it isnt Jesus its bad if make a stick man and say it reminds me of Jesus and what he did for me so i will place it all over a holy church even though there is absolutely no reason to do so do you think its the same, because fundamentally its the same, God clearly states you cant make icons of him plane n simple . stop trying to justify this.
@supermanandbatmanishere stop trying to condemn it. Making images of cherubs should be idolatry, too, right?
Surrounded by roman-catholic churches in Europe, art and Christianity has always been inextricably linked to me. I was in the Saint-Jean-Baptiste Cathedral in Lyon when I realized that for the vast majority, this was the only place where they could see these colors and sculptures and hear these resonating sounds - it must have has such a far more significant impact to the people back then. I'm not a fan of the worship of Mary in my denomination, but when I saw the statue of Mary I was absolutely mesmerized. Which isn't to say that the second commandment should be ignored because the icons are beautiful, but I just can't imagine a church without these works.
That being said, venerating them is wrong.
You are very anointed of God because there are things that we should really know their significance in other not to go into error.
Just like in Proverbs
Let your eyes look right on [with fixed purpose], and let your gaze be straight before you. Consider well the path of your feet, and let all your ways be established and ordered aright. Turn not aside to the right hand or to the left; remove your foot from evil.
Proverbs 4:25-27 AMPC
As a LCMS Lutheran many of our churches have icons in the pastors office or chapel. We also crucifixes and regular crosses mixed so its not only one or the other. My church is Saint Michael's Lutheran Church and we have a huge stained glass of saint Michael the Arch Angel vanquishing the dragon as well as stained glass depicting the Holy Spirit as a dove. We also have literigcal banners with christian symbols.
The icon the reads “Jesus I trust in you” is called Divine Mercy.
Has anyone built a really ugly contemporary non denominational church building yet?
There’s the Pizza Hut church in non-denominational town
Love your videos, Zoomer. I agree that it is important to, at the very least, be cognizant of images and depictions. Icono-skeptic is a great term 👍. As sinners, many things can become slippery slopes, icons included. We should bear that in mind and always weigh our intentions. Again, great video!
Really good point - as a protestant myself, I've noticed that we tend to approach spiritual things with caution, adopting a mindset of "we should avoid ABC even if it's technically acceptable, as it might lead to XYZ vice." On the other hand, Catholic and Orthodox lean towards the stance "ABC is justifiable and beneficial when used correctly, so there's no way we can condemn ABC." This difference may stem from the fact that Protestants 'lack' the guidance of a priest, universal magisterium, and a 'strong' tradition to rely on, leaving them to navigate these issues independently.
The Israelites made the golden calf in a misguided attempt to worship Yahweh which God condemns them for, so its pretty clear the Second Commandment forbids depicting God and worshiping said depiction. The EO basically argue this got overturned through the incarnation.
Veneration ≠ Worship
If you bow towards, kiss and light candles for an icon of Christ and a saint then what is the difference?
When you said that the second commandment (prot commandments) is redundant if it means the same thing as the first commandment, well, that's why we combined the two lol. 14:44
I'm from the u.k. I'm glad you made your church garden our flag.
Revelations 1 12-17 has a description of Jesus. If I read that and picture in my head what it looks like, can anyone count that as idolatry?
why is it that my local United church has images of Christ depicted on it's stained glass windows?
It’s hilarious how you say Calvinists have the “strongest doctrine of sin,” and yet you’re in communion with some of the worst idolaters and blasphemers in the PCUSA. Clearly, you don’t think strongly enough about sin to withdraw fellowship with such people. How ironic!
That's not very charitable. You KNOW that the reason I stay in the PCUSA is to fight AGAINST idolatry and blasphemy, not to condone it.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 But you ARE condoning it by sharing Eucharistic communion with these people. You’re saying you share Christ in common. This is against the Bible. It shows what hypocrites Calvinists are. That “tough on sin” stuff is nothing but empty talk.
@@redeemedzoomer6053God never commands us to take the offensive against apostate teaching or sin. Actually, he commands us not to be unequally yolked. You’re fighting a fight you will lose. It’s a waste of time. Find a local church that teaches doctrine from the original languages and stay away from these denominational movements.
So the literal definition of iconoclast is someone who destroys religious images. It is always amusing to me when people deem themselves iconoclasts, because in most cases it's merely ignorance and people assuming it just means against icons. As an Orthodox Christian of 10 years (I'm 15), I've grown up knowing iconoclasm to mean the destruction of, not just disagreement with, icons. So I'm genuinely curious, to any self-proclaimed "iconoclasts": from where did you hear and adopt the term iconoclast, and would you still use that term knowing the textbook definition? Not trying to insult anybody, just wondering how y'all were exposed to the concept of iconoclasm.
Calvinist Christian here, I actually first learned about iconoclasm in an ancient history class I was taking as a GPA booster (studying engineering = rough GPA) around the time I began converting to Christianity. I'd say I agree with Zoomer that "iconoskeptic" is probably a better word, since I don't agree with destroying beautiful traditional Christian artwork although I personally think there may be conflicts with the Second Commandment in regards to images of Jesus. Beautiful artwork, architecture, and music can point people to Christ as well as inspire Christians to grow in their faith/spread the Word. My belief is that the icons should not be an object of worship, but should instead simply be objects of cultural/historical beauty to preserve Church history point people towards faith.
@@bobbys_projectsI’m surprised that nobody has made complex words for this stuff thousands of years ago (to my knowledge).
Im just confused to what the “do not make graven images of basically anything” means.
I define iconoclast as anyone who doesn't worship statues
Yooo i just realized i was in the chat when he was recording this video at 5:53
When you spoke about the crucifix, I am reminded of the words of Bishop Fulton Sheen (the great divorce of Jesus from the cross), who compared the United States to Jesus without the cross and the Soviet Union to the cross without Jesus. The Western world is singing hymns and taking blessings without Golgotha - renunciation and penance, a world without hell. On the other hand, the Eastern world is all suffering, which without Jesus is worthless. That is why, in my opinion, in Catholicism, not only the fact of the Resurrection is so important, but also the fact that Jesus Christ suffered so much for us.
What would your feelings about depictions of Jesus in books and similar materials? Even in a church without images of Christ it's common for parents to read their children picture book bibles with depictions of Christ in them, so is that ok?
As a fellow Believer, YTer, and MC player I'd love to join your server.... though I'll admit I had to pause when reading "iconoclast" and put two and five together, so not sure I'd fit in lo. Shalom Shalom! Thanks for continuing to see HIM and share your journey as you do.
He has plenty of Catholics and Orthodox on his server, and he lets them have images. You'll fit in fine.
@@catfinity8799 Totally! Though for the longest time I thought doxology was the study of Weiner dogs 😂. I'd also probably spend more time making tents where people can get what they need to keep doing amazing things rather than build something massive. Be a total blast though. ^.^
What’s ur denomination bro😊
@@deacon6221 I genuinely have no idea. 😂 😆 I know that I love things from all the branches. The beauty of communion (I can't spell ecerist even with autocorrect..) from Catholic, I love the intentional design that tells a story in the structure and images of high churches, the intent to speak through the kochma of skill as much as beauty of the words. I love the relationship invitation focus of others, the community drive of others still. To Love GOD and to Love others in one symphony dance. I love the willingness and even the longing of low church to re-sing the songs and Psalms for each new generation. If I had to put a name on it, I'm closer to a Messianic Jew than anything, I guess. Though I'm not Jewish, I found more truth in JESUS' Bible (the TaNaK, or OT) than I ever have in the religion surrounding HIM. Which is sad because it all points to JESUS, from the Snake Crusher in the second movement (chapter 3) all the way to New Jerusalem in the final movements in Revelation (21 and 22).
So, I really don't know what denomination I'd count as, can I say, "HIS" as my answer for what am I?
If you have an answer, please let me know, because I'd say "Non-denominational" but between the politics and insanity I've been through with church branches, that's a no. Politics like that make me roll my eyes hard enough to see my own brain, so no clue. I Happy to be here though! The dead don't get to praise, those in Sheol don't get to enjoy the bountiful blessing. Tomorrow is promised to no one so that I'm awake today means HE saw fit to give me the day, so I get to use it to bless others as I am blessed. ^.^
TL, DR: No clue. But I am for The LORD. ^.^ (It's a face in case it's cut off in edit. ^.^)
@@LearndingLife Hey God bless you! I would actually recommend looking into orthodox Christianity. It retains much of the Jewish tradition of liturgy, incense and really seems to be at least visually the true third temple described in the Bible. Our churches have inscriptions on the walls of Cherubim and other biblical figures like Moses did in the Old Testament. Our theology also is a great symphony of Old Testament and New Testament showing how the Old Testament is predictive and the New Testament is fulfillment of the old prophecies. We also use beautiful chants which include the Psalms and the like. We’ve got a rich history as we are the descendants of the churches founded by the first Christian’s in Antioch, Ephesus, Thessaloniki and Corinth along with the rest. The goal of salvation for us is not to simply make it to heaven or to not go to hell, our goal is to achieve theosis (which means to be sanctified by God and his Holy Spirit) and to become like God in the sense that we strive to align our own will perfectly to that of God. I’d urge you just to watch some videos from Father Trenham at patristicnectsr he’s a great guy and really explained orthodoxy well to me. God bless and good day!
This is off topic from the video, but have you heard of Mike Winger and if so could you respond to his video about why he isn't a Calvinist (I personally found his arguments convincing)
Love the vid!
I personally believe that icons are important means for preservation of the rich history of the church. Use of images for depicting the saints allows one to establish a continuity, which can be quite inspiring and if you believe that the Church is Christ's body on earth, having the building contain upon itself the information of the history of the Church memorialized in beauty is a good thing so people will remember it when it's needed.
To worship an idol is of course be forbidden by the commandments and therefore an error, but you could place a bible on the pedestal and if a fool worships it in the church, it should not be burnt as an idol.
The bible says you shouldn't worship false idols, but bible doesn't command you to erase history.
History and knowledge are useful. Whether you choose to use them or worship them is ultimately up to you.
I do of course agree that certain traditions do kind of look a lot like idol worship, especially with Catholics in regards to the intercession, but much like Catholics are prone to greatest of errors, they're also responsible for some of the greatest deeds as a result of that top-down structure.
17:00 this is a really good argument with arguing from dyophysitism
Would more iconoclastic leaning Christians be against the Stations Of The Cross within churches? I can’t imagine a church without the Stations as I’m a Catholic and have only ever gone to Catholic churches and one or two COE churches but I guess it depends on their views
Yes, they are. I am in an Anglican group on facebook, and unfortunately it is overrun by presbyterians in disguise. All they ever do is complain about Anglicans who bow and genuflect. I posted a video of my church and they actually called our very large depiction of christ victorious on the cross an idol. They have even called the feast of the Holy Cross an idolatrous feast. They don't even like crosses. These people drive me insane. I can't even watch this video because, Lord forgive me, I despise puritans.
The best anti-icon video out there that I've ever seen. I appreciate the respect and reason shown in the video.
I do have a couple of thoughts.
15:08 I get what you are saying, but I have to say, this is one issue where numbering the commandments might actually make a theological difference. Because in Catholicism, that Second Commandment is grouped with the First Commandment. The Catholic First Commandment runs something like this: don't worship anything other than God, including images of God. And then the Second Commandment is not taking His name in vain.
18:35 Okay, but I do think you're way overestimating the view Catholics have of icons. We don't believe that you need them. We just believe they are okay to have. Some Catholic churches do not have any icons.
Lutherans are not at all skeptical or averse towards icons. Most Lutherans and Lutheran churches have images of Christ, crucifixes, and the saints. We don't worship or venerate these images, but view them as beneficial to have as they set our minds on things above.
Your server is like how heaven will be like
The Council of Hieria is only accepted by some and certainly does not meet the requirements of being an ecumenical council, therefore it is not binding. None of the patriarchs nor patriarchal representatives were present and Nicaea 2 rejects it later, truly ecumenical councils will never contradict each other.
The ecumenical council you are talking about don't say that. What it is meant to say is that you are going to hell if you think that its idol worship. It is worded awkwardly. 4:00
As an exmormon, mormons take the dove thing literally, but it's far from their worst belief.
One google search on the Council of Heiria tells me exactly why we should’nt accept that council as ecumenical. Non of the five patriarchs were represented at Hieria.
Its funny how the emperor who called the council was an iconoclast himself.
There is evidence that iconoclasm as a concept came from the muslims and were adopted by christians in the east.
@redeemedemi ”Islam, iconoclasm, and the declaration of doctrine” by Cambridge University Press. Search that on google.
What do you think about Eucharistic miracles documented throughout the history in Catholic Church? The last one officially approved dates back in 1997 where host became heart muscle tissue and had white blood cells in there for years (and those dies out after few minutes person is dead).
I mean that is pretty much in your face argument for the real presence of our Lord and Savior! :)
Good video. I am strongly against images of God, but it's so hard to hold that position when even many reformed people do not and some of their books and resources include images of God.
Wait, you can't say that "Why would he make a separate commandment for idolatry" argument while also acknowledging that you guys pulled that second commandment out of the first one and squished the last two together.
The Catholic and Orthodox argument would be the same. We even use the same reasoning most of the time because Eastern Catholics.
I often view it similar to music, where, when done properly, it is another form of worship. Now, it can be done wrong as well leading into idolatry and such.
Agreeeeee !! Well explained justifications
Saying that you're depicting Christ in only his human nature feels Nestorian. How can you divide the natures of Christ, even in your painting? Also the only reason Jesus is the image of the father is because he is alive as the father is, a dead image could never be that perfect image. Only the true Jesus is that perfect image, not dead images that can't see or hear. "They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but cannot see. They have ears, but cannot hear, nor is there breath in their mouths. Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them."
The images of christ and the saints look really good even if you think there a sin or wrong
Christ*
Of course, the Harlot dresses herself in any manner to attract her victims
@@REVNUMANEWBERN you do realize that you’re calling Christ and holy people who devoted their entire lives to following our Lord “harlots”, right?
lol@@REVNUMANEWBERN
Hey man, is your server open for bedrock? It’s fine if it’s not I would just like to join. I really need to put more Christian things in my life. And potentially pick up on some things
no. Only Java
@@deutschermichel5807 ok thanks
Hello, I'm a Catholic. I like your videos, they're quite entertaining to watch. I just wanted to point out what the Second Counsel of Nicaea really says about images: "If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema." That's it, nothing about going to hell for not kissing images (being anathema just means being excommunicated, not being damned to hell). We just venerate and show respect to the images for what they represent.
In the Declaration of the Second Council the heretic Arius and his followers are anathematized as well, meaning the following are as heinous as being an Arian:
"We anathematize the introduced novelty of the revilers of Christians. We salute the venerable images. We place under anathema those who do not do this. Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about idols. Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images. Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols. Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods. Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God. Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols." This was a major, not minor excommunication. The contemporary Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi shows that major excommunication/anathema results in the subject being delivered to Satan by the authority of the Church, that "...we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church;".
I am an Orthodox and all i want to say is that icons are great, as you said they are like a glimpse into heaven, i dont agree with the protestants on a lot of things and that is one of them.