you have to put the bottles on the floor to see if the decoupling of the speakers to the floor works and the same with racks bottle on the floor and bottle on the rack
The fact that the water vibrates most on the speakers and in the cooling fins may suggest that pressure waves in the room are causing the vibration in lieu of the equipment itself. Allow me to explain, if we look at the amplifier. The greatest vibration is in the bottle on the cooling fins. One distinct difference between the fins and the rest of the amplifier is that the fins are narrower. Thus, they produce the least stability. Hence, the greatest vibration from pressure fluctuations. This hypothesis potentially explains the water vibrating the most at the speakers. The speakers are located close to the side walls, where the reflections are the greatest. The amp, on the other hand, has the speakers shielding them from the direct impact of the reflections. ‘Just my 2 cents..
At that sound pressure level in the room the bottles should vibrate some from airborne pressure waves. Put them on the floor and/ or a table. You could be measuring standing waves in the room. Another test might be to try them on the speaker without them being on the Footers.
Hi Jay, it's useless you make me have a lot of fun, and it's nice to be able to play with these expensive things in this way too. Don't listen to those who will criticize you but keep going like this, you make me have fun. Great great great 👍🏻
Many years ago Mirage made a subwoofer, the BPS-210 bipolar. You could place a wine glass on top of the cabinet and you would not see any ripple in the water at any volume. The resonating frequency of the cabinet was 8 Hz. Since the 10 inch drivers were mounted on opposite sides of the cabinet they cancelled out any potential cabinet resonance.
So, the speaker cabinet will shake unless you have a perfectly opposing force driver system with mirrored force vectors across the cabinet. Subwoofers designed this way indeed vibrate very little for the output. Even if the cabinet itself is not vibrating, air vibrations from the sound can still affect the surrounding area. What you want is to place your audio equipment at the vibrational troughs in your room where the sound phase cancels at the most impactful frequencies (120hz and below). Higher frequency sound will inevitably reach your equipment, that's where heavy, highly damped construction comes into play. I'm a fan of completely sealed structures because of this as sound can enter through vents in the chassis. I designed my Gainclone this way to excellent results.
The fact that you could see the water move on top of the amps means those amp stands are useless in isolating your amplifiers. For a hundred bucks a piece I can build amp stands using compression springs that will completely isolate the amps from the floor. I have videos on WBF showing how it’s done.
One of your viewers made a great point about bass energy transmitted to the room causing components to resonate. Your room is well treated, and all components are decoupled from the floor and surrounding walls. Unless you have an anechoic chamber, it may be impossible to totally suppress unwanted resonances. I've spent time in an anechoic chamber, and with no room reflections, everything sounds muted, quiet and weird.
You have to keep in mind that the speaker will have some flex and movement from the air movement me vibration of the movement within the speaker cones, inside the speaker itself, therefore a little more vibration that what you see on the equipment. Try a relatively inexpensive speaker and see how much more vibration you will see. The majicos are fairly rigid and inert compared to mdf speakers at a more entry level price point.
Lift one bottle an inch above the speaker while playing and see if it vibrates. If it does its the air born vibration, if not its your speaker cabinet. Put your speaker on your carpet and see it the water vibrates, if it does its speaker cabinets. Speaker cabinets vibrating is my guess. If it was airborn the other equipment would produce the same results?
Wouldn’t the water in bottle movement when placed on top of the speaker indicate how well the speaker cabinet is damped? And any other movement would just be from the way your speakers are pressurizing the room?
I put Isoacoustics stands under my stand mount speakers. It definitely made a difference. My room is not dedicated to listening and I can only put my speakers on the corners of a dresser. So removing some of the vibration from resonating down into the dresser was a pretty big improvement. I can’t speak to if whether they would make a big difference in a dedicated room on actual stands though.
Ding Dong the witch is dead , the witch is dead , ding dong the wicked Itch is dead . Hey that’s was actually sung at a Funeral 😂. Man all hell broke out after that .
I find it interesting that Pro audio speakers in studios, and live concerts have the amplifiers inside the speaker cabinet. Also most all subwoofers for home and pro use have the amps inside the cabinet. There could not be a worst case for speaker vibration affecting the electronics than this. And yet they sound good enough that no one notices that the electronics are really being vibrated! As far as a test song check out “Blue Monday” by New Order. What a classic dance floor song, yet it has space and air in it that we all like.
I think the closer you are to the speakers the more vibration you get. It's Impossible to stop low frequencies to disturb electronics that close. Espacially light objects decoupled from an isolation platform. I also believe most audiophile vibration control devices are tuning devices. They can "open the sound stage" by sinking some frequencies. I don't see how one can control vibration without a taylored platform for the Electronic weight and the expected disturbant frequency which is specific for every room.
Footers or platforms only isolate floor borne vibrations (typically above 10~15Hz )…and do nothing for air borne vibrations. The vibration generated by the device (eg Speakers) cannot be isolated…it needs to be damped. Hence you see the water vibrating sympathetically with the speaker vibration. The most effective way isolate and damp vibration from all angles is with active isolation. They can be effective down to 0.7hz. I use Seismion Reactio plus and Reactio 2 isolation platforms. Under equipments that benefit from isolation the difference is not subtle. Thanks for posting this test.
This test should be done with a cup of water on the speaker without isolating feet. Shine a laser pointer on the water at an angle then look at the reflection on a wall with no music, then with music. Then put the speakers on the isolation feet and repeat. You can see how much the reflected laser beam moves with each test. Then put your amps and other equipment on the floor without the stands, repeat. Then the equipment on the stands and repeat. You’re not vibrating the cement floor enough to have any vibration shaking any equipment, so with or without the stands, I suspect the amps are not vibrating. Did you test with the water sitting on the floor, does it show the floor even vibrating? Put water on a completely isolated platform (magnetic levitation) or hang from a string. Try near the speaker and away from the speaker. Does it “compress” or vibrate in free-air? Much more testing is needed.
The water bottles are a fun way to see vibrations but they must be pretty strong to be visible. An accelerometer with an FFT analyzer would tell you the full story. It doesn't take much vibration in electronics to affect the sound- particularly the imaging and sound stage. Vibration levels not visible in water bottles. Airborne vibrations would have to be really strong to see in the water bottles. The fact that you didn't see the water move on the preamps shows that it was not airborne causes. Concrete is a plastic. So even concrete will conduct mechanical vibration. Try the water bottles on the floor beside the speaker.
Water bottle vibration was from the speakers. Put your fingers on the speaker cabinet and I am sure you will feel the vibration when playing music. Water bottle on the amp's heatsink was airborne vibration because the amps were so close to the speaker drivers. The CH and the other electronics didn't have vibration because they were placed way behind the speaker's drivers. Airborne vibration hardly reached them. I believe you have a concrete floor. I believe water bottle vibrates no matter what if you are on a wood floor.
Jay, footers is for the speakers to not send vibration to flor. All speaker ( to very high volume) make vibrations in cabinet, less or more. Leave freedom of movement. BR
Hehe, you want a hardcore bass track? Try Origin Unknown by Bratkilla. For something more musical, Prism by Nexus and Tight. I broke a ceiling light in a Magnolia once playing Origin Unknown on a Martin Logan triple 10" Opposing Force subwoofer.
Not sure Jay I had done this experiment on my B & W 901 matrix 3 speakers with some deep bass tracks and did not get any vibrations on the water cups for me.
basic physics …. speaker enclosure is NOT inert.. I am sure Magico just ignored that…… air is always moving, but this bottles are positioned ON material that is connected to speakers itself….material molecules are vibrating and everything is connected….. that’s why vibrations are transferred…… they are not vibrating because of “air”, they vibrating because you have motions of speaker membrane and that all… basic physics…… you can not isolate speaker vibrations if your cabinet is not inert itself….. you saw that water vibrates less on amp stands and preamp stands….. like I said, basic physics…. put your stands on rubber plate, vibrations will be eliminated…… as always…. basic physics. great video Jay. thank you for your time and efforts :)
I think decoupling lets the whole speaker move too much. Have you tried put the speakers on spikes instead to lead the vibrations down to the floor? Since we only want the speaker cones to move and not the whole cabinet.
Shouldn’t the speakers be coupled to the floor instead of decoupled? Wouldn’t that give the speakers more mass and reduce vibrations further? Then use the isolation devices to decouple all the other components in your system from the floor. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
What is the point of measuring the ondulations of water in the bottles placed on the speaker/amplifier with the stands if you don’t have other bottles on the other speaker/amplifier (with no stands) …? There must be a reference for comparison to understand if that stuff works.
I don’t understand this test. Putting water bottles on top of components without moving parts vs speakers with moving parts. Well it still gave me good entertainment. I just put water bottles on top of my amp that’s on pool noodles and there was zero movement 😊.
My 2 cents thinking..almost impossible for the water on top of these beast speakers not to move a little..was not moving that much IMO..pretty acceptable I think really..even with high caliber speaker feet you can't have zero movement.
RESONANCE CONTROL : when the industry has priced itself so far out of consumers reach that the only think u can buy is USB cable or a glorified hockey puck Tune in next year FOR ionizing machines from furutech to align air molecules for better dampening
What do you think is the reason for vibration? Have you tried doing this before? Comment below !
I think all your theories are true at the same time
you have to put the bottles on the floor to see if the decoupling of the speakers to the floor works and the same with racks bottle on the floor and bottle on the rack
Yes, that will be the way to really test it.
The fact that the water vibrates most on the speakers and in the cooling fins may suggest that pressure waves in the room are causing the vibration in lieu of the equipment itself.
Allow me to explain, if we look at the amplifier. The greatest vibration is in the bottle on the cooling fins. One distinct difference between the fins and the rest of the amplifier is that the fins are narrower. Thus, they produce the least stability. Hence, the greatest vibration from pressure fluctuations. This hypothesis potentially explains the water vibrating the most at the speakers. The speakers are located close to the side walls, where the reflections are the greatest. The amp, on the other hand, has the speakers shielding them from the direct impact of the reflections. ‘Just my 2 cents..
That is an interesting observation.
OCD needs to do this with his slate speakers.
At that sound pressure level in the room the bottles should vibrate some from airborne pressure waves. Put them on the floor and/ or a table. You could be measuring standing waves in the room. Another test might be to try them on the speaker without them being on the Footers.
Hi Jay, it's useless you make me have a lot of fun, and it's nice to be able to play with these expensive things in this way too. Don't listen to those who will criticize you but keep going like this, you make me have fun.
Great great great 👍🏻
Love you channel, keep doing your great work.
Laser interferometry would be the solution in order to exclude most of the airborne pressure effects.
Many years ago Mirage made a subwoofer, the BPS-210 bipolar. You could place a wine glass on top of the cabinet and you would not see any ripple in the water at any volume. The resonating frequency of the cabinet was 8 Hz. Since the 10 inch drivers were mounted on opposite sides of the cabinet they cancelled out any potential cabinet resonance.
So, the speaker cabinet will shake unless you have a perfectly opposing force driver system with mirrored force vectors across the cabinet. Subwoofers designed this way indeed vibrate very little for the output. Even if the cabinet itself is not vibrating, air vibrations from the sound can still affect the surrounding area. What you want is to place your audio equipment at the vibrational troughs in your room where the sound phase cancels at the most impactful frequencies (120hz and below). Higher frequency sound will inevitably reach your equipment, that's where heavy, highly damped construction comes into play. I'm a fan of completely sealed structures because of this as sound can enter through vents in the chassis. I designed my Gainclone this way to excellent results.
How is 90db pushing the hell out of your speakers?😂😂
The fact that you could see the water move on top of the amps means those amp stands are useless in isolating your amplifiers. For a hundred bucks a piece I can build amp stands using compression springs that will completely isolate the amps from the floor. I have videos on WBF showing how it’s done.
One of your viewers made a great point about bass energy transmitted to the room causing components to resonate. Your room is well treated, and all components are decoupled from the floor and surrounding walls. Unless you have an anechoic chamber, it may be impossible to totally suppress unwanted resonances. I've spent time in an anechoic chamber, and with no room reflections, everything sounds muted, quiet and weird.
You have to keep in mind that the speaker will have some flex and movement from the air movement me vibration of the movement within the speaker cones, inside the speaker itself, therefore a little more vibration that what you see on the equipment. Try a relatively inexpensive speaker and see how much more vibration you will see. The majicos are fairly rigid and inert compared to mdf speakers at a more entry level price point.
That is an interesting point.
Lift one bottle an inch above the speaker while playing and see if it vibrates. If it does its the air born vibration, if not its your speaker cabinet. Put your speaker on your carpet and see it the water vibrates, if it does its speaker cabinets. Speaker cabinets vibrating is my guess. If it was airborn the other equipment would produce the same results?
Wouldn’t the water in bottle movement when placed on top of the speaker indicate how well the speaker cabinet is damped? And any other movement would just be from the way your speakers are pressurizing the room?
Bingo! The speaker cabinets aren’t inert. They are resonating and passing it on to the water bottles.
The fact no one else gets this is disturbing.
I put Isoacoustics stands under my stand mount speakers. It definitely made a difference. My room is not dedicated to listening and I can only put my speakers on the corners of a dresser. So removing some of the vibration from resonating down into the dresser was a pretty big improvement. I can’t speak to if whether they would make a big difference in a dedicated room on actual stands though.
I was curious about the room vibrations as well, but that would have affected the water on the electronics as well I assume.
Good point!
Cool👍
Next time a glass of wine on top. That would be interesting 😮
Ding Dong the witch is dead , the witch is dead , ding dong the wicked Itch is dead . Hey that’s was actually sung at a Funeral 😂.
Man all hell broke out after that .
Hi. I use to use an ap in my phone to meassure vibrations. Then I can se the different levels of vibrations on different places.
I find it interesting that Pro audio speakers in studios, and live concerts have the amplifiers inside the speaker cabinet. Also most all subwoofers for home and pro use have the amps inside the cabinet.
There could not be a worst case for speaker vibration affecting the electronics than this. And yet they sound good enough that no one notices that the electronics are really being vibrated! As far as a test song check out “Blue Monday” by New Order. What a classic dance floor song, yet it has space and air in it that we all like.
It will get a copyright strike I am afraid
I did see very slight movement, mainly from the reflections off the water surface reflection, on the Commander.
Damn! You are maxin’ that Classic T out Jay! 😂
I think the closer you are to the speakers the more vibration you get.
It's Impossible to stop low frequencies to disturb electronics that close. Espacially light objects decoupled from an isolation platform.
I also believe most audiophile vibration control devices are tuning devices. They can "open the sound stage" by sinking some frequencies.
I don't see how one can control vibration without a taylored platform for the Electronic weight and the expected disturbant frequency which is specific for every room.
Footers or platforms only isolate floor borne vibrations (typically above 10~15Hz )…and do nothing for air borne vibrations. The vibration generated by the device (eg Speakers) cannot be isolated…it needs to be damped. Hence you see the water vibrating sympathetically with the speaker vibration.
The most effective way isolate and damp vibration from all angles is with active isolation. They can be effective down to 0.7hz. I use Seismion Reactio plus and Reactio 2 isolation platforms. Under equipments that benefit from isolation the difference is not subtle.
Thanks for posting this test.
This test should be done with a cup of water on the speaker without isolating feet. Shine a laser pointer on the water at an angle then look at the reflection on a wall with no music, then with music. Then put the speakers on the isolation feet and repeat. You can see how much the reflected laser beam moves with each test.
Then put your amps and other equipment on the floor without the stands, repeat. Then the equipment on the stands and repeat. You’re not vibrating the cement floor enough to have any vibration shaking any equipment, so with or without the stands, I suspect the amps are not vibrating.
Did you test with the water sitting on the floor, does it show the floor even vibrating?
Put water on a completely isolated platform (magnetic levitation) or hang from a string. Try near the speaker and away from the speaker. Does it “compress” or vibrate in free-air?
Much more testing is needed.
The water bottles are a fun way to see vibrations but they must be pretty strong to be visible. An accelerometer with an FFT analyzer would tell you the full story. It doesn't take much vibration in electronics to affect the sound- particularly the imaging and sound stage. Vibration levels not visible in water bottles.
Airborne vibrations would have to be really strong to see in the water bottles. The fact that you didn't see the water move on the preamps shows that it was not airborne causes. Concrete is a plastic. So even concrete will conduct mechanical vibration. Try the water bottles on the floor beside the speaker.
That is an interesting observation and great suggestion!
It looks to me, you need to place the Magicos on top of an Artesnia rack 😊
Water bottle vibration was from the speakers. Put your fingers on the speaker cabinet and I am sure you will feel the vibration when playing music. Water bottle on the amp's heatsink was airborne vibration because the amps were so close to the speaker drivers. The CH and the other electronics didn't have vibration because they were placed way behind the speaker's drivers. Airborne vibration hardly reached them. I believe you have a concrete floor. I believe water bottle vibrates no matter what if you are on a wood floor.
Jay, footers is for the speakers to not send vibration to flor. All speaker ( to very high volume) make vibrations in cabinet, less or more. Leave freedom of movement. BR
Hehe, you want a hardcore bass track? Try Origin Unknown by Bratkilla. For something more musical, Prism by Nexus and Tight. I broke a ceiling light in a Magnolia once playing Origin Unknown on a Martin Logan triple 10" Opposing Force subwoofer.
Not sure Jay I had done this experiment on my B & W 901 matrix 3 speakers with some deep bass tracks and did not get any vibrations on the water cups for me.
Love the Jurassic park methodology but why none on the floor
basic physics …. speaker enclosure is NOT inert.. I am sure Magico just ignored that…… air is always moving, but this bottles are positioned ON material that is connected to speakers itself….material molecules are vibrating and everything is connected….. that’s why vibrations are transferred……
they are not vibrating because of “air”, they vibrating because you have motions of speaker membrane and that all… basic physics……
you can not isolate speaker vibrations if your cabinet is not inert itself….. you saw that water vibrates less on amp stands and preamp stands….. like I said, basic physics…. put your stands on rubber plate, vibrations will be eliminated…… as always…. basic physics.
great video Jay.
thank you for your time and efforts :)
Jay,please try flight of the cosmic hippo by Bella fleck.. l think it will knock those water bottles off your speaker
The vibrations from the woofer run up the baffle to the top of the speaker. Stopping it may not be possible.
I think decoupling lets the whole speaker move too much. Have you tried put the speakers on spikes instead to lead the vibrations down to the floor?
Since we only want the speaker cones to move and not the whole cabinet.
Shouldn’t the speakers be coupled to the floor instead of decoupled? Wouldn’t that give the speakers more mass and reduce vibrations further? Then use the isolation devices to decouple all the other components in your system from the floor. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
What is the point of measuring the ondulations of water in the bottles placed on the speaker/amplifier with the stands if you don’t have other bottles on the other speaker/amplifier (with no stands) …? There must be a reference for comparison to understand if that stuff works.
Source of the vibrations are the speakers . Expected result
so speakers are not inert…..
does a speaker with ABSOLUTE ZERO resonance sound dead PROBABLY
I don’t understand this test. Putting water bottles on top of components without moving parts vs speakers with moving parts. Well it still gave me good entertainment. I just put water bottles on top of my amp that’s on pool noodles and there was zero movement 😊.
My 2 cents thinking..almost impossible for the water on top of these beast speakers not to move a little..was not moving that much IMO..pretty acceptable I think really..even with high caliber speaker feet you can't have zero movement.
Good point
RESONANCE CONTROL : when the industry has priced itself so far out of consumers reach that the only think u can buy is USB cable or a glorified hockey puck
Tune in next year FOR ionizing machines from furutech to align air molecules for better dampening
voodoo
The music really doesn't have any deep bass , you just creating sound pressure within the room .