Thanks so much for posting this stuff for all of us black powder enthusiasts and not letting the whiny critics impede you. Your info has been very helpful to a great many. Keep up the good work!
Yes I would be very interested in a side by side comparison of card no card. And great video. Always check for yourself ideas others tell you won’t work. It’s the only way to find out if their advice is based in experience or venerable poop
I found when shooting lead bullets that the card wad keeps it from leading the barrel as much. Not a big difference at the distances I shot for accuracy, but clean-up is easier and long term accuracy stays better. Most of mine were .45 Colt and .45-70 Gov.
I think your right on the money with everything you’ve done. If you can’t hit it, power is a moot point. Now some thoughts from my memory. Fits I don’t own or shoot 44/40. I went 44 mag with a couple lever guns. And I’ve helped another UA-camr with a 41 Swiss Vetterli which is essentially a big 44/40. The 44/40 had a 1:36 twist originally. Most today use the 1:20 common for 44 mag. Same for the bore diameter of .429. The Vetterli twist is 1:38 and the bore on the one I worked over was .428. The Vetterli calls for a 325 gr slug. Lee made such for awhile. The 44/40 as you know is a bit hard to load being I’ll suited to simple sizing in a carbide die. But it seals the chamber very well. My 44 mag 1892 clone likes anything from 208 wad cutters to that 325 vetterli slug. As long as it’s in 44 special brass. I made the vetterli brass from 50/100 when I did the rim to centerfire conversion. It’s heavy brass and it does not obturate to seal as well as I’d have liked. So o guess my constructive comment might be “what’s your twist?” Maybe you said and I missed it. From what you have done, I’d suspect that you should get decent accuracy with moderately heavy bullets. If you don’t I’d be looking very closely and the reaming of the fire chamber and lead area. Seating depth might be a factor. As to your card wad. That seems to have been common in the old guns with bottle necked cases in BP. Could it be a sort of gas check effect to reduce flame cutting on the heel? I predict you will succeed and develop your accurate load. Looks like a nice rifle. Fox out.
Thanks for showing the group. Good shooting off hand! Mike V is a world class black powder cartridge silhouette competitor and all of the full rifle loads in his book are developed with that long range accuracy in mind. His pistol caliber rounds are developed for accuracy at your shorter ranges. The card was separated the powder from the soft black powder lubricants that can soften in warm days or warm barrels and ooze back into the powder charge and change the ignition rates of the first layer of powder next to the bullet. This is critical at 800 yards. Less so at 100. It is also critical for long term storage or for those of us in the sunny southwest with hot days.
I have noticed a difference using a wad under the bullet abd over the powder. Barrel leading / fowling is much less. As far as imprived accuracy, i think id have to shoot a few hundred rounds in one sitting to notice a difference. Cleaner barrel usually means longer shooting sessions with out scrubbing the barrel.
If you’re looking for a mold, I’ve had good luck with the NOE 432-216-RF-Z1. Looks like NOE has a 3 cavity in stock now. It’s a 216 gr big lube bullet that holds a lot of lube for that long rifle barrel. With SPG lube, 33 grains of Swiss 2F, 1-20 alloy, and no card needed under bullet. it is a great plinking load in both my SAA and Uberti 1873 rifle. It should be easy on that old 73 too! I get about 1250 fps out of the rifle and 900 fps out of a 7.5” SAA with it.
EBP, Accuracy for me is 'hunting accurate at what ever distance that that cartridge is good for'. I have a 350 legend that is good to about 200 yards. Stays 3 inch high or low to that range so for me that's a 200 yard gun. Love the sound of BP rounds.
Accurate moods 43-215C was John Kort’s favourite and I really like it as well. It carries sufficient lube with black for a 24” barrel and has demonstrated great long rang accuracy. Obviously some 240 grain bullets can work depending on the crimping location but I prefer them closer to 200 grains as that weight regulates best in most fixed sight .44-40 revolvers and I prefer to load rounds that work in both the revolver and rifle. Original Winchester ‘73 bores varied quite a bit so they used a soft enough alloy to bump up, or down, with black. Colt .44 barrels were much more consistent, at least from the 2nd gen onwards @.427” whether chambered for .44-40 or .44 Special. Keep experimenting and find what works best for you. 35 grains of a good 3F over a 200ish grain cast bullet is a well proven round in a rifle, carbine, or revolver, and lots of fun to boot. Unique loads are plenty good as well.
As always excellent and excellent timing, a friend just picked up a 44-40 spencer repro and we split 1000 200 and 240 grain cast boolits. I personally would love to see side by side testing with the wads!
Another good one, Jake. Thanks! In my smokeless 45 Colt loads, I usually put a "whisp" of cotton over the powder, just to keep it to the rear. I've had no problems, and maybe slightly improved consistency. Take care! 👍
I did up some of these with red dot and we powder coated...did some fffg swiss too with 50/50 beeswax and olive oil with the powder coat. They shot well for me.
@@Everythingblackpowder i think it was 4.6 grains. I found some old load data chart from lee dated around 1950. Ill see if i can track it down again. Problem driving long haul truck is, im not at home where i wrote it down lol
@@Everythingblackpowder found it, stand corrected it was unique 240 grain Lead Bullseye 5.0 gr. 850 FPS Unique 6.7 gr. 950 2400 12.0 gr. 1,130 Max From reloadammo
I have a 38-40 model 1873 that was my great great uncle's. The bore is pretty bad but still shoots. My best load is very hard cast .001 over or .401. I use a grease cookie and T7 to get 1,325 fps loads. They work pretty well. I do have some "safe" smokeless balloon head brass factory ammo from 1908 and those are closer to 1,390 fps but I am afraid to shoot them too often.
.427 bore was the original standard in both rifle and pistol for 44-40, so .426" in a rebored 38-40 barrel is not surprising at all. I've shot thousands of rounds of 44-40, as it was my match round for a couple of years of SASS competition. I shot it in a 26" Uberti 1886, and a pair of 4 5/8" Uberti pistols. I really like shooting it, but with the amount of reloading I was doing, I found it was difficult to keep a handle on brass length because of constant full-length resizing and having to lube the brass. I moved to 44 Spl with a carbide resizing die just for the care and feeding of my tendency toward laziness. But all three of those barrels were .429" bore. But for some reason, the cylinder bores on both 44-40 cylinders were .427" I had to take them to my gunsmith and have them bored to .431" so that they weren't swaging the bullets down to under bore diameter. I didn't shoot black in those guns, my standard load was 7 1/2 grains of Red Dot, which I found to be quite accurate at 80 yards, the longest range we had at our SASS club. Keep up the good work on the videos, I find them quite informative.
I have an NOE mould for the 44/40 that with my lead supply throws bullets in the 218 grain range. This bullet has a large grease groove and works for me with both smokeless and black. I use Mike Venturino's load of 6.8 gr. of 231 in my rifle a Model 92. So far no pressure problems and have yet to lose a case to splits. Anyway another bullet option to look at.
Could always play with lead mixture. I have noticed sometimes pure lead starts having issues past 900 fps on a few barrels and calibers. If you don’t have the recent load book by Lyman for cast bullets I would look into getting one. A lot of in-depth data on percentage of antimony and tin. You also might want to look into jb bore paste, a few passes will really smooth out any rough spots which in general improves ease of cleaning and accuracy for older barrels.
I have used the vegetable fiber wads ,waxed cardboard milk jug type, and automotive type felpro gasket material in my 40-65 silhouette rifle. With my loads and certain bullet alloy hardness the wads help cut down the lead fouling during a long string of shots in competition. I found the same results with spg it works well for easy but homemade lube is better. Those little 73 rifles are quite handy
I've long had a fascination with the .44-40 but every modern revolver and rifle or carbine I have checked (thankfully before I purchased) had barrels with .428 to .429 rifling. In other words .44Spl/.44 Magnum size. The revolvers and long guns would happily chamber .44-40 but, after firing examples owned by other people, I was kind of shocked at the lack of accuracy. It was those firearms that led me to check before buying. As it stands today, I would be more inclined to purchase a handgun and rifle chambered .44Spl/.44 Magnum and handload to .44-40 levels using .44Spl brass. I'm convinced that the biggest reason manufacturers of "44-40" firearms are using barrels in .429 range is simply economics since it is clearly cheaper to just screw in a barrel that they already have hundreds of than it would be to purchase the equipment to produce handgun and rifle barrels of the correct .44-40 size. If I'm wrong about that it won't be first time. Take care keep the great BP videos coming!
FWIW I did some experiments with paper wads. .45-90 Sharps replica, 535gn Lyman Postell bullet made with 20-1 alloy, 69gn Swiss 1.5F (the velocity was around 1240 fps). I took an unsized .45 Colt case and sharpened its mouth with Lyman inside and outside deburring bits (those working with a drill). Then with a mallet I drove it through an old Yellow Pages book several times, getting 2 cardboard wads and several tens of paper ones each time. I used 3 of these thin paper wads for each cartridge. The funny part is, that after 40+ shots I saw many unburnt paper circles around my spot. So it takes little paper to protect the base of the bullet. Certainly I could have used two instead of three per cartridge. The accuracuy was OK, I got 4/8 hits on a full size buffalo silhouette at 805yds. The misses were probably due to my inability to read the wind well.
The best part of the video was watching you pick up your casings to use again! lol I think I want to watch some more videos. This is my second video and I have learned something in both. Thanks! Phil
Love my 44-40. It’s poo poo’d by the black plastic crowd but with BP loads, it is exceptionally capable. I prefer the BP loads over smokeless. They have more energy and are by far, more accurate. Are you using the preferred powder compression plug or are you compressing with the bullet? I get more consistency (lower SD) with the plug.
Maybe size them down to . 416 or something and then paper jacket them with rag vellum paper and then size to .429 or whatever your bore size is... No lube... And you want your bullet sized from something bigger so the sides are perfectly smooth so they seperate from the paper easily on leaving the bore... Very cool vids! Thanks.
Good video. I would be interested in a video exploring the benefits (or lack thereof) of card wads in BP cartridges. Also, what brand/style of hat is that you frequently wear in shooting? Thanks.
another great presentation ,my 1880's era 73's have .426 and .427 my friends 1880's '73 is .430 looks like they were all over the show at some stage , ive heard of .425 to .433 , the '66 bores were larger and ive wondered if a bit of mismatched tooling took place occasionally in error ( not sure how the rifling was set up ) i think factory lead did measure only .425 and the early reload tools threw .426 lead , i first started in a black powder club 30yrs ago and most of the old guys used antique gear, you might try 2ff swiss or your equivalent and may pick up 100fps ,if your set on 40 gr it may compress easier, i'm not sold on the cards ,i just dont like sending more crap down the bore than necessary, cheers big ears from down under
that load sounds promising. The 44-40 you made for me worked pretty good out of my 73 Winchester. Even though with my bore it's like throwing a hotdog down a hallway 😅
I am curious if the semi bottle neck shape is giving you some problems....i dont know if your bullet protrudes below the "neck" and is possibley starting some gas path around the bullet , and or if you are full size resizing giving you a straight section to get good ( consistent ) neck tension also a casting of you chamber might be interesting ......the ole 44-40 is kinda like a pistol cartridge , kinda like a rifle cartridge ....and kind of not really either. Having never worked with it myself ( 25-20 is my personal project) I cant say ....but some thoughts i had that may or may not prove interesting.
That BP load shows promise as a potential critter load. The smokeless is a nice velocity for a plinker. Perhaps a slower powder would work better for a smokeless load.
Huh! Isn't it interesting how someone , or anyone could know what the rate of twist would be on your rifle? Especially considering it a rebore. Essentially making it a custom job that would be dependent on the gunsmith who I'd guess cut the rifling. It would be interesting go measure the rate of twist on it and see how it compares to a factory barrel. Just like my one custom 35 whelen the rate of twist was set to my desired specifications. I am going to start working on obtaining a combo 44-40 pair myself myself starting next month, after I finish paying for my double barrel surprise the first of this month. Mountain man
Is your over-powder card wad lubed? (i.e. saturated in lube before being cut). When I was a kid I used to make lubed felt wads for a .44 cap and ball revolver. They improved the accuracy and helped keep the bore fouling to a minimum. I would expect any wad to help protect the base of the bullet from erosion. That should improve your accuracy. Good video, BTW.
I have a 1873 -44-40 original. Now the barrel and mag tube were replaced with a set of modern winchester manufactured model 1894 ,44-40. Am I safe to use smokeless loads ?
I know you dont like it, but can you try that 240 grain bullet with 34 grains of pyrodex P, and a magnum primer? Im very currious how your rifle will handle that, and also to compare it to your home made powder. I think your smokless loads are pretty mild. Out of a rifle, you should be clocking over 1,000 fps.
200 grain projectile should be perfect for that twist rate assuming you get the diameter spot on for your bore(notice I said your bore, not the generic caliber term) with the right load development you can make that thing a tack driver. I have confidence in you. I wish people wouldn't try to convert smokeless numbers to black powder, they think they know, but they really don't. the acceleration of the projectile is so different as to make it apples to oranges. damn I made a book, sorry brother. LOL
speaking of subsonic, the speed of sound is 1115fps should we stay below or above with a heavy 230gr bullet for example? Does the paper jam act as a gas check? (excessively expensive with us) I think the old "strong" weapons can handle this well, BP must handle it better than smokeless powder, right? your multiplex video is very interesting, especially for the remaining residue
How did you determine the max safe smokeless load? I have a Trapdoor Springfield and a Martini-Henry and I load both BP and smokeless for the Trapdoor and I am working up a smokeless load for the MH and I haven't been able to find as much data on that.
I believe it does. yesterday I tested some 45 colt with 40 grains of three Swiss, a 250 grain bullet with that same paper wad between the powder and the bullet and I gained 25 ft./s on average over the same load without wads.
Rifling doesnt stabilize based on weight. Assuming similar material for you projectile, the deciding factor is bullet length. So, if we're talking about lead or majority lead alloys, length of projectile is king. For calculating pitch, the length is expressed in calibers (bullet diameter). In 30-06 military barrels, a 200 grain flat based round nose is the "calculated ideal" projectile. However, a 168 grain boat tail spire point is the projectile chosen for match ammo. Why? The 168 is, for all practical purposes, "the same length" as far as rifling pitch, but the shape is a far more ideal supersonic projectile, same at trans-sonic speeds, and about equal at sub-sonic velocities (all compared to the 200 FBRN). What does this long winded diatribe mean? Your lead .44 200 RNFP and a 240 FP are within a couple percent of each other in length, if both are cast pills with similar grease grooving. A 240 SWC would be longer, so less ideal. Rifling pitch, while important, isnt the major factor in "best load" for your individual firearm. Consistent combustion is the biggest elephant in the room. Inconsistent neck tension/crimp profile will make ANY load shoot shotgun patterns. Inconsistent primers will do the same. But, what makes seemingly identical arms prefer markedly divergent loads/projectiles is harmonics. A rifle/stock/rest combo is effectively a tuning fork, a projectile/case/propellant combo is as well. If those forks synch, you get accuracy. If not, you dont. Im assuming you have enough time at the bench to produce consistent loads (crimp, OAL, case condition, etc), so "scatter shot loads" is just harmonics. Your smokepole will like what it likes, no matter what any "learned scholar" opines, calculates, or divines with tea leaves. Ludicrous combos of components can be kneejerk rejected (i doubt a 300 grain spire point boat tail cast of copper would shoot well in your .44-40, lol) but "not perfectly ideal but way close" can often be the tack driver load for a specific arm. In short, try even stuff that sounds "out there" at first glance, but careful examination shows "hell, that aint far off" (like a 10% difference in length despite a 20% difference in weight). What works is what works, not "sage advice", lol
Hey, Jake - how do you take care of the cartridge cases you run black powder in? Soapy water wash and dry, or what? I've heard untended black powder brass gets brittle, without cleaning....
@@JohnTBlock I start with hot soapy water to neutralize the black powder. After they are dry run them through my Frankfort arsenal wet tumbler. They come out looking brand new
I wonder if those cowboy bullets are too soft for over 1200 fps MV. My bullets, cast at 30:1, are OK for MV in the 1100s but once I get into the 1200s I miss the target.....a lot. Card wads: I don't think original factory loads used any wads and I cannot tell if they help or not. I would be interested to see your results in a side by side comparison.
ive always used slower burning powders for black powder cases even somethin like h322 would get those velocities up i would think being slower and wont peak as quickly but thats jus somethin you would have to play with in order to find if you like it or not. but then again the name of the channel aint everything smokeless either
Since you have the Garmin now, you should do a video where it's a compilation of every time your old chronograph failed you and you were threatening it.
It seemed to handle the heavier bullet well. Generally the heavier ie. longer the bullet, the faster it needs to spin. And you are right, hitting what you are shooting at doesn't require bench testing and MOA accuracy, it requires that you know your gun. And you are confident and competent with it. All the trappings of the bench rest don't put meat on the table.@@Everythingblackpowder
Enjoy your experiments wish we could do this in UK but we’re being squeezed out of the sport/hobby by the government 🤬 Meanwhile I can subscribe to your channel, unless they legislate that I can’t even do that.🤞😉
a 38-40 rebored to 44-40 sounds like it was a Brain Kilpatrick job! he was a gunsmith in northern colorado in the 1890's and specialized in reboring rifles!! and the group opening up past a 100 yards out in a gun meant for a 100 yards or less really? are they yanking chain or just don;t realize what the pistol caliber lever gun was meant for? it was made to be a everyday carry/work gun not a sniper or Bisley rifle that'll throw a 3 inch group at a 1,000 yards!!!
@@Everythingblackpowderthe only reason i looked into it was i saw a gun with BK and a N Col. town that's not there anymore (forget the name of the place!) stamped on the barrel by the caliber! i've looked into him and there's not much out there that i can find beyond name the region he worked date of birth and date of death (both just the year! 1857 to 1912) and being known for reboring rifles! it took about 8 months of on and off asking of lever rifle collectors (the 14th knew!) to find that! i find that's about average for the information bit fast on time on old west gunsmiths that i've looked into!
@@Everythingblackpowderyou know Will, there's a question i've asked gun writers before mike belleview Ian McCollum rob on british muzzleloaders and i thought i'd get your take sense i was thinking of it after just sending the question to Axle on capandball, why do you think lever guns got so popular while the pump action didn't do so well in the old west? as popular as pump action is in shotguns from the 1897 on it seems that pump rifles would be good sellers too but they did nowhere near the lever guns in sales!
@keithmoore5306 I think it was familiarity and shear numbers. The lever actions had reined supreme for 20 years before the pumps came out in the 1880s with the 82 Spencer pump shotgun and the much more popular 84 Colt lightning. Between the 66, 73s and 92 Winchesters there were over two million built. And that’s not counting all of the other lever actions in the 1800s. There are only 89k lightenings made from 1884 to 1904. John Browning realized the potential of the pump action much earlier than his contemporaries. But it’s not until the release of the 1890 rim fire pump action rifle and 1893/1897 shotgun that the pump action really took off.
Accused of being like Ron Spomer, LOL! I watch Ron, but he is way too #s oriented. 243 is good for elk!? Elmer understood that bad angles happen, big heavy MF bullets are more of a sure thing. Card wads, I think were used, at least for one reason, to stop migration of lubes into powder during long storage. Maybe they seal and scrape like a gas check? A multi shot test starting with a clean barrel to test for deposits, with and with out cards. What else ya got to do? 🙂
Your videos don't suck sir, they've helped me in some respects. Keep em coming!
Thank you
Thanks so much for posting this stuff for all of us black powder enthusiasts and not letting the whiny critics impede you. Your info has been very helpful to a great many. Keep up the good work!
Thank you
Yes I would be very interested in a side by side comparison of card no card. And great video. Always check for yourself ideas others tell you won’t work. It’s the only way to find out if their advice is based in experience or venerable poop
Agree.
Thank you
"All you care about are the numbers, who do you think you are, Ron Spomer?!!" 😆
🤣🤣
I found when shooting lead bullets that the card wad keeps it from leading the barrel as much. Not a big difference at the distances I shot for accuracy, but clean-up is easier and long term accuracy stays better. Most of mine were .45 Colt and .45-70 Gov.
I think your right on the money with everything you’ve done. If you can’t hit it, power is a moot point. Now some thoughts from my memory.
Fits I don’t own or shoot 44/40. I went 44 mag with a couple lever guns. And I’ve helped another UA-camr with a 41 Swiss Vetterli which is essentially a big 44/40.
The 44/40 had a 1:36 twist originally. Most today use the 1:20 common for 44 mag. Same for the bore diameter of .429. The Vetterli twist is 1:38 and the bore on the one I worked over was .428. The Vetterli calls for a 325 gr slug. Lee made such for awhile.
The 44/40 as you know is a bit hard to load being I’ll suited to simple sizing in a carbide die. But it seals the chamber very well.
My 44 mag 1892 clone likes anything from 208 wad cutters to that 325 vetterli slug. As long as it’s in 44 special brass. I made the vetterli brass from 50/100 when I did the rim to centerfire conversion. It’s heavy brass and it does not obturate to seal as well as I’d have liked.
So o guess my constructive comment might be “what’s your twist?” Maybe you said and I missed it. From what you have done, I’d suspect that you should get decent accuracy with moderately heavy bullets. If you don’t I’d be looking very closely and the reaming of the fire chamber and lead area. Seating depth might be a factor.
As to your card wad. That seems to have been common in the old guns with bottle necked cases in BP. Could it be a sort of gas check effect to reduce flame cutting on the heel?
I predict you will succeed and develop your accurate load. Looks like a nice rifle.
Fox out.
Thanks for showing the group. Good shooting off hand! Mike V is a world class black powder cartridge silhouette competitor and all of the full rifle loads in his book are developed with that long range accuracy in mind. His pistol caliber rounds are developed for accuracy at your shorter ranges. The card was separated the powder from the soft black powder lubricants that can soften in warm days or warm barrels and ooze back into the powder charge and change the ignition rates of the first layer of powder next to the bullet. This is critical at 800 yards. Less so at 100. It is also critical for long term storage or for those of us in the sunny southwest with hot days.
Thank you
I have noticed a difference using a wad under the bullet abd over the powder. Barrel leading / fowling is much less. As far as imprived accuracy, i think id have to shoot a few hundred rounds in one sitting to notice a difference. Cleaner barrel usually means longer shooting sessions with out scrubbing the barrel.
There is the SPG Tropic lube, with a higher melting point.
If you’re looking for a mold, I’ve had good luck with the NOE 432-216-RF-Z1. Looks like NOE has a 3 cavity in stock now. It’s a 216 gr big lube bullet that holds a lot of lube for that long rifle barrel. With SPG lube, 33 grains of Swiss 2F, 1-20 alloy, and no card needed under bullet. it is a great plinking load in both my SAA and Uberti 1873 rifle. It should be easy on that old 73 too! I get about 1250 fps out of the rifle and 900 fps out of a 7.5” SAA with it.
Once I fell in love with black powder cartridge shooting that was it for me. 45 Colt & 45-70. I really enjoyed the video. Thanks!
👍👍!!!
Glad to hear it
I do make my own videos, once in a while... But i enjoy your videos too!
EBP, Accuracy for me is 'hunting accurate at what ever distance that that cartridge is good for'. I have a 350 legend that is good to about 200 yards. Stays 3 inch high or low to that range so for me that's a 200 yard gun. Love the sound of BP rounds.
Accurate moods 43-215C was John Kort’s favourite and I really like it as well. It carries sufficient lube with black for a 24” barrel and has demonstrated great long rang accuracy. Obviously some 240 grain bullets can work depending on the crimping location but I prefer them closer to 200 grains as that weight regulates best in most fixed sight .44-40 revolvers and I prefer to load rounds that work in both the revolver and rifle. Original Winchester ‘73 bores varied quite a bit so they used a soft enough alloy to bump up, or down, with black. Colt .44 barrels were much more consistent, at least from the 2nd gen onwards @.427” whether chambered for .44-40 or .44 Special. Keep experimenting and find what works best for you. 35 grains of a good 3F over a 200ish grain cast bullet is a well proven round in a rifle, carbine, or revolver, and lots of fun to boot. Unique loads are plenty good as well.
Thanks but this is working pretty well so I’m gunna peruse it further
Another Video, that did NOT SUCK!
Christ Bless you Men!
As always excellent and excellent timing, a friend just picked up a 44-40 spencer repro and we split 1000 200 and 240 grain cast boolits. I personally would love to see side by side testing with the wads!
Glad to hear it. Thank you
Another good one, Jake. Thanks! In my smokeless 45 Colt loads, I usually put a "whisp" of cotton over the powder, just to keep it to the rear. I've had no problems, and maybe slightly improved consistency. Take care! 👍
Thank you
I did up some of these with red dot and we powder coated...did some fffg swiss too with 50/50 beeswax and olive oil with the powder coat. They shot well for me.
What was your red dot load if you don’t mind me asking?
@@Everythingblackpowder i think it was 4.6 grains. I found some old load data chart from lee dated around 1950. Ill see if i can track it down again. Problem driving long haul truck is, im not at home where i wrote it down lol
@@Everythingblackpowder found it, stand corrected it was unique
240 grain Lead
Bullseye 5.0 gr. 850 FPS
Unique 6.7 gr. 950
2400 12.0 gr. 1,130 Max
From reloadammo
@Rumblestrip thank you
La poudre noire swiss est celle qui donne le meilleur résultat avec le 44/40
I have a 38-40 model 1873 that was my great great uncle's. The bore is pretty bad but still shoots. My best load is very hard cast .001 over or .401. I use a grease cookie and T7 to get 1,325 fps loads. They work pretty well. I do have some "safe" smokeless balloon head brass factory ammo from 1908 and those are closer to 1,390 fps but I am afraid to shoot them too often.
I"m in for the card -no card comparison.
.427 bore was the original standard in both rifle and pistol for 44-40, so .426" in a rebored 38-40 barrel is not surprising at all. I've shot thousands of rounds of 44-40, as it was my match round for a couple of years of SASS competition. I shot it in a 26" Uberti 1886, and a pair of 4 5/8" Uberti pistols. I really like shooting it, but with the amount of reloading I was doing, I found it was difficult to keep a handle on brass length because of constant full-length resizing and having to lube the brass. I moved to 44 Spl with a carbide resizing die just for the care and feeding of my tendency toward laziness. But all three of those barrels were .429" bore. But for some reason, the cylinder bores on both 44-40 cylinders were .427" I had to take them to my gunsmith and have them bored to .431" so that they weren't swaging the bullets down to under bore diameter. I didn't shoot black in those guns, my standard load was 7 1/2 grains of Red Dot, which I found to be quite accurate at 80 yards, the longest range we had at our SASS club. Keep up the good work on the videos, I find them quite informative.
What grain bullet were you using?
@@Everythingblackpowder 200 grain RNFP from Missouri Bullet.
@@tjh44961 thank you
I have an NOE mould for the 44/40 that with my lead supply throws bullets in the 218 grain range. This bullet has a large grease groove and works for me with both smokeless and black. I use Mike Venturino's load of 6.8 gr. of 231 in my rifle a Model 92. So far no pressure problems and have yet to lose a case to splits.
Anyway another bullet option to look at.
Could always play with lead mixture. I have noticed sometimes pure lead starts having issues past 900 fps on a few barrels and calibers. If you don’t have the recent load book by Lyman for cast bullets I would look into getting one. A lot of in-depth data on percentage of antimony and tin. You also might want to look into jb bore paste, a few passes will really smooth out any rough spots which in general improves ease of cleaning and accuracy for older barrels.
I have used the vegetable fiber wads ,waxed cardboard milk jug type, and automotive type felpro gasket material in my 40-65 silhouette rifle. With my loads and certain bullet alloy hardness the wads help cut down the lead fouling during a long string of shots in competition. I found the same results with spg it works well for easy but homemade lube is better. Those little 73 rifles are quite handy
I've long had a fascination with the .44-40 but every modern revolver and rifle or carbine I have checked (thankfully before I purchased) had barrels with .428 to .429 rifling. In other words .44Spl/.44 Magnum size. The revolvers and long guns would happily chamber .44-40 but, after firing examples owned by other people, I was kind of shocked at the lack of accuracy. It was those firearms that led me to check before buying. As it stands today, I would be more inclined to purchase a handgun and rifle chambered .44Spl/.44 Magnum and handload to .44-40 levels using .44Spl brass. I'm convinced that the biggest reason manufacturers of "44-40" firearms are using barrels in .429 range is simply economics since it is clearly cheaper to just screw in a barrel that they already have hundreds of than it would be to purchase the equipment to produce handgun and rifle barrels of the correct .44-40 size. If I'm wrong about that it won't be first time. Take care keep the great BP videos coming!
As long as the chamber throat is also sized for 429 bullets that should be fine if you load the special sized bullets.
@@mkshffr4936Thanks for the kind response and advice!
FWIW I did some experiments with paper wads. .45-90 Sharps replica, 535gn Lyman Postell bullet made with 20-1 alloy, 69gn Swiss 1.5F (the velocity was around 1240 fps). I took an unsized .45 Colt case and sharpened its mouth with Lyman inside and outside deburring bits (those working with a drill). Then with a mallet I drove it through an old Yellow Pages book several times, getting 2 cardboard wads and several tens of paper ones each time.
I used 3 of these thin paper wads for each cartridge. The funny part is, that after 40+ shots I saw many unburnt paper circles around my spot. So it takes little paper to protect the base of the bullet. Certainly I could have used two instead of three per cartridge. The accuracuy was OK, I got 4/8 hits on a full size buffalo silhouette at 805yds. The misses were probably due to my inability to read the wind well.
The best part of the video was watching you pick up your casings to use again! lol I think I want to watch some more videos. This is my second video and I have learned something in both. Thanks! Phil
Love my 44-40. It’s poo poo’d by the black plastic crowd but with BP loads, it is exceptionally capable. I prefer the BP loads over smokeless. They have more energy and are by far, more accurate.
Are you using the preferred powder compression plug or are you compressing with the bullet? I get more consistency (lower SD) with the plug.
The bullet is my compression plug 😉
Maybe size them down to . 416 or something and then paper jacket them with rag vellum paper and then size to .429 or whatever your bore size is... No lube... And you want your bullet sized from something bigger so the sides are perfectly smooth so they seperate from the paper easily on leaving the bore...
Very cool vids! Thanks.
Awesome video, there is is a thread on cast boolits forum called my 44-40 black powder journey that is worth reading.
if like to see your losd drvelopment results. great stuff! thsnks for sharing it!
Good video. I would be interested in a video exploring the benefits (or lack thereof) of card wads in BP cartridges.
Also, what brand/style of hat is that you frequently wear in shooting? Thanks.
Thank you. My hat is a Stetson
another great presentation ,my 1880's era 73's have .426 and .427 my friends 1880's '73 is .430 looks like they were all over the show at some stage , ive heard of .425 to .433 , the '66 bores were larger and ive wondered if a bit of mismatched tooling took place occasionally in error ( not sure how the rifling was set up ) i think factory lead did measure only .425 and the early reload tools threw .426 lead , i first started in a black powder club 30yrs ago and most of the old guys used antique gear, you might try 2ff swiss or your equivalent and may pick up 100fps ,if your set on 40 gr it may compress easier, i'm not sold on the cards ,i just dont like sending more crap down the bore than necessary, cheers big ears from down under
Thank you
Can’t say enough good about it… it’s still one of the greatest cartridges ever developed..
Agreed
that load sounds promising. The 44-40 you made for me worked pretty good out of my 73 Winchester. Even though with my bore it's like throwing a hotdog down a hallway 😅
😂 that sounds like a slight exaggeration
Maybe but it's closer to Reality then 90 grain in a walker with a 200 grain bullet😁
lol!!! Fair enough
I love these load development videos.
I would like to see 44-40 load dev for a saa.
I am curious if the semi bottle neck shape is giving you some problems....i dont know if your bullet protrudes below the "neck" and is possibley starting some gas path around the bullet , and or if you are full size resizing giving you a straight section to get good ( consistent ) neck tension also a casting of you chamber might be interesting ......the ole 44-40 is kinda like a pistol cartridge , kinda like a rifle cartridge ....and kind of not really either. Having never worked with it myself ( 25-20 is my personal project) I cant say ....but some thoughts i had that may or may not prove interesting.
Garmin has come out with a chronograph, kinda expensive but very nice.
That BP load shows promise as a potential critter load. The smokeless is a nice velocity for a plinker.
Perhaps a slower powder would work better for a smokeless load.
I had a 92 with the same bore size made in 1911
Interesting
Huh! Isn't it interesting how someone , or anyone could know what the rate of twist would be on your rifle? Especially considering it a rebore. Essentially making it a custom job that would be dependent on the gunsmith who I'd guess cut the rifling. It would be interesting go measure the rate of twist on it and see how it compares to a factory barrel.
Just like my one custom 35 whelen the rate of twist was set to my desired specifications.
I am going to start working on obtaining a combo 44-40 pair myself myself starting next month, after I finish paying for my double barrel surprise the first of this month.
Mountain man
Excellent, looking forward to seeing it
Is your over-powder card wad lubed? (i.e. saturated in lube before being cut). When I was a kid I used to make lubed felt wads for a .44 cap and ball revolver. They improved the accuracy and helped keep the bore fouling to a minimum. I would expect any wad to help protect the base of the bullet from erosion. That should improve your accuracy. Good video, BTW.
Lee load manual 2nd edition I think…. List 23 grs R7…. We push a 250 gr at 1300ish… very accurate…
I have a 1873 -44-40 original. Now the barrel and mag tube were replaced with a set of modern winchester manufactured model 1894 ,44-40. Am I safe to use smokeless loads ?
You may have said and I missed it, but did you use your own black powder, or something else?
Great channel here
Cheers !!
3F Swiss. Thank you
I know you dont like it, but can you try that 240 grain bullet with 34 grains of pyrodex P, and a magnum primer? Im very currious how your rifle will handle that, and also to compare it to your home made powder. I think your smokless loads are pretty mild. Out of a rifle, you should be clocking over 1,000 fps.
200 grain projectile should be perfect for that twist rate assuming you get the diameter spot on for your bore(notice I said your bore, not the generic caliber term) with the right load development you can make that thing a tack driver. I have confidence in you. I wish people wouldn't try to convert smokeless numbers to black powder, they think they know, but they really don't. the acceleration of the projectile is so different as to make it apples to oranges. damn I made a book, sorry brother. LOL
speaking of subsonic, the speed of sound is 1115fps should we stay below or above with a heavy 230gr bullet for example?
Does the paper jam act as a gas check? (excessively expensive with us)
I think the old "strong" weapons can handle this well, BP must handle it better than smokeless powder, right?
your multiplex video is very interesting, especially for the remaining residue
The card wad might serve as a gas check. It does make slightly lower velocities without it
Good Video
Thank you
Good video so I guess I won't have to make my own yet !! Lol How dirty does your barrel get shooting black ?
Dirtier than smokeless
How did you determine the max safe smokeless load? I have a Trapdoor Springfield and a Martini-Henry and I load both BP and smokeless for the Trapdoor and I am working up a smokeless load for the MH and I haven't been able to find as much data on that.
I just compared the pressures to other safe pressure 4440 loads
Wonder if the compression you get with the paper wad help ignition therefore, speed, just a thought
I believe it does. yesterday I tested some 45 colt with 40 grains of three Swiss, a 250 grain bullet with that same paper wad between the powder and the bullet and I gained 25 ft./s on average over the same load without wads.
Rifling doesnt stabilize based on weight. Assuming similar material for you projectile, the deciding factor is bullet length. So, if we're talking about lead or majority lead alloys, length of projectile is king. For calculating pitch, the length is expressed in calibers (bullet diameter). In 30-06 military barrels, a 200 grain flat based round nose is the "calculated ideal" projectile. However, a 168 grain boat tail spire point is the projectile chosen for match ammo. Why? The 168 is, for all practical purposes, "the same length" as far as rifling pitch, but the shape is a far more ideal supersonic projectile, same at trans-sonic speeds, and about equal at sub-sonic velocities (all compared to the 200 FBRN).
What does this long winded diatribe mean? Your lead .44 200 RNFP and a 240 FP are within a couple percent of each other in length, if both are cast pills with similar grease grooving. A 240 SWC would be longer, so less ideal.
Rifling pitch, while important, isnt the major factor in "best load" for your individual firearm. Consistent combustion is the biggest elephant in the room. Inconsistent neck tension/crimp profile will make ANY load shoot shotgun patterns. Inconsistent primers will do the same. But, what makes seemingly identical arms prefer markedly divergent loads/projectiles is harmonics. A rifle/stock/rest combo is effectively a tuning fork, a projectile/case/propellant combo is as well. If those forks synch, you get accuracy. If not, you dont.
Im assuming you have enough time at the bench to produce consistent loads (crimp, OAL, case condition, etc), so "scatter shot loads" is just harmonics. Your smokepole will like what it likes, no matter what any "learned scholar" opines, calculates, or divines with tea leaves. Ludicrous combos of components can be kneejerk rejected (i doubt a 300 grain spire point boat tail cast of copper would shoot well in your .44-40, lol) but "not perfectly ideal but way close" can often be the tack driver load for a specific arm.
In short, try even stuff that sounds "out there" at first glance, but careful examination shows "hell, that aint far off" (like a 10% difference in length despite a 20% difference in weight). What works is what works, not "sage advice", lol
Hey, Jake - how do you take care of the cartridge cases you run black powder in? Soapy water wash and dry, or what? I've heard untended black powder brass gets brittle, without cleaning....
@@JohnTBlock I start with hot soapy water to neutralize the black powder. After they are dry run them through my Frankfort arsenal wet tumbler. They come out looking brand new
@@Everythingblackpowder thank you, sir. Never tried wet tumbling, been using vibratory tumbler since I began reloading many moons ago...
Great channel
Thank you
Always good!
Thank you
I don't load that cartridge but shoot 45-90 paper patch and I use a lubed felt wad as part of my loads maybe that could help your accuracy ??
Years ago I did some test with felt wads and I got worse accuracy using them. But maybe that’s just me?
I have a 92 and reload with a 230 grn bullet, they are very accurate in my rifle.
Excellent
Take the sunshades off ur chrono on cloudy days. Run it raw!
I keep looking at reloading presses online now and im holding you personally responsible
😂
I wonder if those cowboy bullets are too soft for over 1200 fps MV. My bullets, cast at 30:1, are OK for MV in the 1100s but once I get into the 1200s I miss the target.....a lot.
Card wads: I don't think original factory loads used any wads and I cannot tell if they help or not. I would be interested to see your results in a side by side comparison.
I can’t speak for 44/40 but I know that 45 Colt had card wads between the powder and the bullet.
Dam,cool
I’d really like to add a 44-40 to my collection. Still trying to find the brass first.😬
Someone told me that starling is taking back orders for 44/40 now.
I check their website a couple times a day. So far still not taking back orders now. I’ve heard when they do take orders it’s only for a short time.🤔
Bummer
@@sasquatch885 yeah you just have to keep checking, when they open up for backorders they sell out in a few hours or less. Eventually you get lucky
ive always used slower burning powders for black powder cases even somethin like h322 would get those velocities up i would think being slower and wont peak as quickly but thats jus somethin you would have to play with in order to find if you like it or not. but then again the name of the channel aint everything smokeless either
Would it be possible to have the barrel reborn to 0.429 then it opens up all the 44 conventional bullets of today
I think so but most old 44/40 Winchester measure around .428-430 from over 100 years of use and a lot of folks use 44spl/mag bullets
👍👍👍‼️😎🤙
Since you have the Garmin now, you should do a video where it's a compilation of every time your old chronograph failed you and you were threatening it.
@@plop55 lol. That would be a long video
So I wonder if when the barrel was re-bored that the twist was increased?
It’s possible but I doubt it
It seemed to handle the heavier bullet well. Generally the heavier ie. longer the bullet, the faster it needs to spin.
And you are right, hitting what you are shooting at doesn't require bench testing and MOA accuracy, it requires that you know your gun. And you are confident and competent with it.
All the trappings of the bench rest don't put meat on the table.@@Everythingblackpowder
Enjoy your experiments wish we could do this in UK but we’re being squeezed out of the sport/hobby by the government 🤬 Meanwhile I can subscribe to your channel, unless they legislate that I can’t even do that.🤞😉
I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you
So basically with BP in that rifle you’re getting the same power on paper as a 44 mag out of a handgun roughly. Not bad.
Yep
Start saying hits the air with so much energy, let the technical nerds loose their minds over it 😅
😂
Want to see that(BP) out of a revolver.. compered with the rifle.. [Want to see the fireball!]
I’ll do that as soon as I get a revolver chambered in 44/40
1st…..
Whatta I win?
🤣🤣👍👍👌👌
a 38-40 rebored to 44-40 sounds like it was a Brain Kilpatrick job! he was a gunsmith in northern colorado in the 1890's and specialized in reboring rifles!! and the group opening up past a 100 yards out in a gun meant for a 100 yards or less really? are they yanking chain or just don;t realize what the pistol caliber lever gun was meant for? it was made to be a everyday carry/work gun not a sniper or Bisley rifle that'll throw a 3 inch group at a 1,000 yards!!!
Interesting! I would like to know more about this Brian Kilpatrick
@@Everythingblackpowderthe only reason i looked into it was i saw a gun with BK and a N Col. town that's not there anymore (forget the name of the place!) stamped on the barrel by the caliber! i've looked into him and there's not much out there that i can find beyond name the region he worked date of birth and date of death (both just the year! 1857 to 1912) and being known for reboring rifles! it took about 8 months of on and off asking of lever rifle collectors (the 14th knew!) to find that! i find that's about average for the information bit fast on time on old west gunsmiths that i've looked into!
@@Everythingblackpowderyou know Will, there's a question i've asked gun writers before mike belleview Ian McCollum rob on british muzzleloaders and i thought i'd get your take sense i was thinking of it after just sending the question to Axle on capandball, why do you think lever guns got so popular while the pump action didn't do so well in the old west? as popular as pump action is in shotguns from the 1897 on it seems that pump rifles would be good sellers too but they did nowhere near the lever guns in sales!
@keithmoore5306 thank you
@keithmoore5306 I think it was familiarity and shear numbers. The lever actions had reined supreme for 20 years before the pumps came out in the 1880s with the 82 Spencer pump shotgun and the much more popular 84 Colt lightning. Between the 66, 73s and 92 Winchesters there were over two million built. And that’s not counting all of the other lever actions in the 1800s. There are only 89k lightenings made from 1884 to 1904. John Browning realized the potential of the pump action much earlier than his contemporaries. But it’s not until the release of the 1890 rim fire pump action rifle and 1893/1897 shotgun that the pump action really took off.
If I were going to get myself shot with a 44-40, I would prefer that first round across the chrono at 0 fps.
Accused of being like Ron Spomer, LOL! I watch Ron, but he is way too #s oriented. 243 is good for elk!? Elmer understood that bad angles happen, big heavy MF bullets are more of a sure thing. Card wads, I think were used, at least for one reason, to stop migration of lubes into powder during long storage. Maybe they seal and scrape like a gas check? A multi shot test starting with a clean barrel to test for deposits, with and with out cards. What else ya got to do? 🙂
? air gun Pro Jo's ? just say'en? testing in sabots, no luck yet, just ok?
Too many primadonna's on here. They can't do it themselves yet, They will complain about anyone else doing it.
Looks like you proved the nay sayers wrong again LOL..