"Insulted that a captain had been sent to deal with an admiral." Oh look! Another historical example of enlisted men getting killed because of the ego of officers.
That's true what you say, but the British should have anticipated that and sent a higher ranking officer. All navies in WWII had pompous admirals, and in such an important undertaking you would think that Britain would have had a 'better safe than sorry' attitude to their negotiation with the French.
@@BigBrianStormer the crucial bit of information missed out by the video is that he was literally the only French speaker in the British fleet, and so sending an admiral would be pointless and time consuming for an already sharp deadljne
@@BigBrianStormer If the French had given us more notice that they were going to perfidiously hand over their ships to Germany in breach of our agreements we could have arranged to provide a more senior fluent French speaking officer.
This is honestly really depressing. I would absolutely have hated to be any of the sailors on either side. Especially considering how the French sailors even saluted Holland as he left. It’s honorable that he willingly resigned from his position, because I couldn’t imagine what he had to have felt being involved in such a terrible situation. War truly never is black and white. A horrible situation all around and a needless waste of young lives.
The polish were in a similar position and ended up mostly either scuttling their ships, dying, or fleeing to british territory and joining up with the royal navy. They'd planned on pulling back to Romania and using british allies to ferry supplies to Romania to resupply their army while they hid in Romania while France prepared for their promised attack on the western front.
What's sad about this is that, despite the attack, the French DID scuttle their ships just as they promised they would if the Germans invaded Vichy France. But there was no way anyone in Britain could have known with certainty that was going to happen. This hindsight just makes the whole affair more disheartening.
The French were the only ones who stepped up to stop Hitler before the war, but every Nation believed Germany's propaganda and chastised the French and ordered them to leave the Germans alone so they had to pull back.
Yes, however, the French attempts to stop Germany were largely defensive in nature, hence the Maginot Line and the building of their fleets. I don't think the French were dishonorable, but divided and this division is what has caused the attitude people have with France during this time period. With the rise of those who followed "Vichy" ideas I think it is conceivable that France could have joined the Axis if WWII had started a few years later or at least enter into a non-aggression pact like Russia. I also believe that Britain was not dishonorable but, despite their alliance with France, prudent. I would even contend that the alliance with France was null and void once Vichy took power over what was left of France. There was no guarantee such as we have today with the benefit of hindsight that the French would follow through, especially since Vichy's government was, if only limited, on friendly terms with Germany, who had completely demilitarized their land forces in a few short months. Additionally, Poland was annihilated, Greece and Romania had no serious military at all, Spain was in a state of civil war, Russia and Germany had a non-aggression pact and the only major power left to help was the far away country of America across the Atlantic Ocean which still had to contend with the deadly U-boat crews. If the surface fleet of France did join the Germans and Italians, then such naval supremacy would have firmly placed naval power, perhaps permanently, into their favor on the sea. This invasion could even had taken place before the USA was able to figure out a way to properly escort their supply convoys across the sea. Between this powerful naval combination, and a far from yet depleted air force, Germany could easily have had sufficient anti air cover to stage a naval invasion regardless of the number of British aircraft or sea vessels it could field.
Well the thing is even if they were being honest about scuttling their ships being able to actually do it is another thing, like what the British did to French ships in Plymouth. They boarded and took over the ships before they could scuttle or sail out.
@@MisterGame68 I can't understand how such brave soldiers, fighting in various places at one against ten (sometimes even one against thirty), still manage to find enough strength to go on the assault: it's simply amazing ! I find among the French soldiers of Dunkirk the same ardour as that of the poilus of Verdun in 1916. For several days hundreds of bombers and guns have been pounding the French defences. However, it is still the same thing, our infantry and tanks cannot break through, despite some ephemeral local successes." " "Dunkirk proves to me that the French soldier is one of the best in the world. The French artillery, so feared in 14-18, once again demonstrated its dreaded effectiveness. Our losses are terrifying: many battalions have lost 60% of their strength, sometimes even more! “ "By resisting about ten days to our forces, which were significantly superior in terms of numbers and resources, the French army achieved a superb feat in Dunkirk that is to be commended. It certainly saved Britain from defeat, by allowing its professional army to reach the English coast." General Von Küchler commandant of the XVIII army during the last stand of the french army to cover the british at Dunkirk. The origins of this reputation: The Dunkirk episode was far worse than was ever realized … The men getting back to England were so demoralized they threw their rifles & equipment out of the windows of railway-carriages. Some sent for their wives & their civilian clothes, changed into these & walked home.” Even Churchill was honest (in private) when he declared to Hugh Dalton, a prominent member of the Labour Party, who later became Minister of Economic Warfare in Churchill’s cabinet, that Dunkirk was “the greatest British military defeat for many centuries.” General Mason-Macfarlane, the head of military intelligence, summoned journalists and told them that they were to inform the British public to blame the French for “not fighting,” and to proclaim that the B.E.F. was “undefeated.” On May 30, 1940, the BBC announced that “men of the undefeated B.E.F. have been coming home from France. They did not come back in triumph, they have come back in glory.”
My great uncle was a junior officer on the Dunkerque and survived the engagement. He held a somewhat balanced point of view on the event, without much hate against the British while still regretting it had came to this and regretting the Royal Navy's relentlessness to destroy the French fleet, needlessly killing more French personnels. In 1943, he survived another attack from the Brits when his submarine was sunk near Diégo-Suarez, off Madagascar's northernmost tip. He swam for hours, with his men dying left and right around him, either by drowning or eaten by sharks, until he was picked up by the Royal Navy.
It was needless only in that Gensoul should have passed up to his superiors the ultimatum and saved his men. I'm sure none of the British wanted it to go the way it did.
doesnt get enough coverage? the fuck? it was a huge deal.... i see over a dozen books and 2 movies about it. its also got a hundred videos on youtube covering it...... you need to expand your sources for historical content my dude.
The french haven't stopped whining about it since - like Dunkerque, where they were crying because some of the rearguard left behind ON FRENCH SOIL were french. There is too little gratitude for France being free now because of the evil royal navy and heartless British who rescued the troops THEY SENT TO FRANCE TO DEFEND that thankless nation.
I've been fascinated by WW2 my whole life, even studying some the war in college, yet somehow there are still major events like this one that are completely new to me. Incredible story.
@@mymaster416well it has been covered extensively in most recountings of the early parts of the war. The problem is it's not a war crime or a victory or anything. It's just a sad and pointless loss of life because Gensoul was an idiot and Churchill's orders didn't allow for his level of of idiocy. This was freinds killing freinds because the man at the top of the chain of command didn't want to face reality. It should be noted same tactic worked elsewhere with no issues and every other defeated nations militarys fought on as either free nations or within the British command structure. The French mostly didn't because the high ranking admirals and generals did not want to fight on and they existed within a chain of command.
Drachinifel did a very nice breakdown of the political and personal motivations and actions that resulted in the tragedy and I must say that I agree with his conclusion. Right or wrong, Force H was there. Admiral Somerville had his orders and he was going to carry them out. Gensoul had an obligation to the men under his command to safeguard their lives as best he could. His refusal to accept the British terms, which would see him allowed to sail to the West Indies, where his ships would be safe from German or British attack, was what finally resulted in the tragedy at Mers El Kebir. It didn't have to end the way it did but Gensoul's actions made such a result unavoidable.
Another option was safe Harbour in the US. I can imagine another timeline in where such a fleet would be utilised in conjunction with the US fleet in the Pacific. A shame really.
@@callumwilliams1449 imagine the dunkerques and richelieus in conjuction with the allied fleets, on Norway or the pacific such a powerfull display , but no, just scrap metal at the end because of brain dead admirals
It's a really sorry incident that might have been avoided if Somerville had been able to speak directly with Gensoul to ensure the terms are actually listened to. The fact Holland resigned and Somerville objected at the operation from the start shows the Navy itself didn't want to take the action it did, but ultimately, the Royal Navy couldn't fight the German, Italian AND French navies all at once, especially given the high quality of a good number of the French ships and is a reminder that war is a dirty business that gets people needlessly killed. The fact it's still a sore subject for the French in general and the Royal Navy is not unwarranted.
What's the point of Somerville going when he couldn't speak or understand French, while Holland could, and Holland being the French liaison in the past? The opinions and guilt they had came from faulty information because of Gensoul's pride.
HMS Ark Royal has a notable history. The ship participating in a majority of the significant battles of the Atlantic and Mediterranean naval theaters, including this one. She also aided in hunting the Graf Spee, the Scharnhorst, the Gneisenau, and eventually the Bismarck, as well as providing support to Malta. In my opinion, a record equally as impressive as the great aircraft carrier USS Enterprise. The ship deserves more recognition for its contributions to the British naval fleet.
She also influenced the design of all post war British carrier's and the modern day queen Elizabeth carrier as ark royal was sunk due to the engine room flooding so from that point all carrier's in the royal navy had two engine rooms.
My grandfather served on ark royal as a swordfish pilot. He was a wing commander. It was his squadron that hit the Bismarck’s rudder. He was also part of this raid, and he hit one of the french capitol ships with a torpedo.
The hard part is even though they scuttled their ships, there’s always a chance they could easily have been taken before scuttle. Everything makes sense but it’s sad. Lack of communication is such a drag.
Which makes it even worse in hindsight that they didn't properly talk things out. Simply because a French Admiral was too prideful to meet with a captain.
my grandma brother was in a foxhole during this battle as a young conscript, his best mate vanish when a shell fall in his shelter, he never find a bit of him, he never had a good vibes towards the Brits, he finished the war in the free french forces in Germany thanks for him to have translated this sad story in english "we needed more time" that what he always said . tonight you won a new subscriber thanks!
Darlan turning into a Vichy Fascist was probably worse still. A more reasonable way this could've gone would be to have Britain send an Admiral to meet Gensoul, and explain the situation at the port, rather than broadcasting to the entire fleet. At least would've saved more lives, but given that Gensoul didn't want to abandon Mers El Kebir, or his Government via Royal Navy Escort it wouldn't have changed a great deal. They would've consulted Darlan anyway who, at that point was already too compliant with the Nazis to do anything useful or, too busy with the Armistace and moving to Vichy.
@@VineFynn probably, English wasnt yet as opressive as today due to internet and the era of information forcing everyone to learn the language, and French was always an important language in europe
I just finished the Somerville papers from the naval record society, the man carried his order against his own will and was hunted for what he did. He was also the man to endure the Japanese raid into the Indian Ocean with relic old battleships when Phillips threw away force Z and pearl harbour in ruin, the one to lead the daring raid deep into Genoa against the superior Italian forces, and the one to save the dignity of Tovey by bring Bismarck to him when Home Fleet units failed, the one to first invent W/T controlled fighter interception to make carrier fighters useful, or the one to creatively introduce the idea of using carriers to ferry fighters to malta without needing a merchantman to actually reach the island. He faced some of the worst situations in the war and arguably saved the war by not losing everything to a superior foe and letting the allies be cut in half in 1942 in the Indian Ocean, saving the supply lines to Russia through Iran, the communication between the Persian oil fields, India and UK, as well as the airroad to China through northern India. Yet he received so little attention after the war with no recognition like ABC, Tovey, or Nimitz, Halsey. He may not be the one to offer glorious victories, but he was the one to be relied on when the impossible and unspeakable needed to be done. That is noble in its own way. Also, he kept a pet monkey, which is cool.
He did not save the war for the Allies by any stretch of the imagination, but this is an interesting list of achievements from someone few people know about.
@@trumpetedeagle2 It's actually midway, midway eliminated any possibility for the IJN to master enough mobile strength to threat the west indian line. Gua was the important for the Pacific war but midway for the World war, freeing the allies to redirect their resources to Midterranean, Atlantic as well as to counter attack around Gua. Somerville did a good job not to loss in April and NImitz finished the task of winning in June. I think Andrew Boyd has written extensively on this subject, he explained things far better than I could.
My father was an officer on board Foxhound and part of the compliment involved in the negotiations, he said that it was one of the saddest days of his war.
Very good work but a few little mistakes : French battleships were anchored by the stern to the jetty, not by the bow, Dunkerque and Strasbourg having their main turrets only facing Africa, not the sea ; and only Mogador was disabled by shellfire, the 5 others DD escaping with Strasbourg. And you forget to mention the swordfish torpedo attack on Dunkerque the following 6th of july, wich effectively disabled the ship much more than the shellfire and killed 200 more sailors due to, there we can say it without a doubt, by the stupidity of some french officers (I'm french) : telling by radio on a public statement that the ship was not severely damaged, mooring a barge full of depth charges alongside the ship, which was not protected by torpedo nets, using it (the barge) for evacuate the crew during the air attack, when it was blown up by one of the torpedoes... (Read French Battleships by John Jordan and Robert Dumas for more details)
There was also a British attempt to enter the harbour to scuttle vessels, using destroyers, which seems to have been written out of history. My great uncle was killed on one of them and he wasn't the only casualty.
@@juhopuhakka2351 No, it's just I've read many books on this operation, I am not an historian (and sorry for my english). I suggest you to check on various websites (eng.wikipedia, as it is today, gives an incorrect date for the second attack, the 8th, not the 6th...) and if you could, the book i mentioned earlier, very very well made. And for the readiness of the french battleships, to make it short and quick, they have the whole day to prepare. They open fire almost instantly but only Dunkerque and Provence (some turrets, not all) could reply because the english bbs opened fire from NE, from behind a mountain, on the french ships who have to fire above each other. Some sources says that Hood was engaged by Dunkerque and two sailors suffered some injuries from shell splinters. The order given by Gensoul for sailing was Strasbourg first, then Dunkerque, then Bretagne and Provence. Strasbourg was able to flee because its officers did well (a salvo of 15" fall where she was the minute before), not Dunkerque, who was still moored for many minutes because the crew and its officers acted poorly, then suffers hits on her machinery and has to beach herself. By the time it was their turn, Bretagne has already blown up and Provence too badly damaged has to beach itself too.
@@LUPUSLELUPUS Greetings from North Carolina Monsieur Lupus... it seems that you should put together a video about this subject. Your knowledge of this awful event is very impressive.
I've watched many of your videos, and this one is easily one of the best. The topic was very well chosen. It's a battle where the viewer is gripped and waiting for the play-by-play revealing of what comes next that you do expertly deliver. And then the overlayed geopolitical consequences left me stunned by the end. Bravo!
I learned about this WWII episode years ago but forgot a lot of it. Not only did you refresh my memory, you enhanced my understanding to a higher level. Well done presentation. Thanks.
I've heard about the British sinking the French fleet to avoid it falling into German hands. But never knew the full story. As always a well presented video loving watching your videos.
Just wanted to say that it makes me so happy to see how popular your channel has become, i really do wish everyone involved all the best in the future, and to cap that 1mil sub mark quickly! Diamond quality content
Visualizing the incident really helped put things into perspective, and it's one of the things I love about this channel. I've seen a half dozen different accounts of the incident at Mers el Kebir, and I've come away with new information each time. But through each and every single one, there has been a constant thread: tragedy. No matter how rational or understandable each step, each decision was, _this could have been avoided._ Many French sailors, through no crime except duty to their orders, died because of the inaction, ineptitude, or arrogance of officers. I can understand seeing the incident as a travesty, as betrayal. However, I can equally well see the justifications for it. It is tragedy of the purest kind.
English People are just so full of churchill's lie. Churchill just wanted thé US help and spread the false fear of the french fleet falling into german hands by his propaganda. As he spreadthe myth ofthefrench unwilling to fight in dunkirk however we save his ass. This is a fellony.
This was also a play by Churchill to prove to Roosevelt that he was serious about winning the war. Churchill's private secretary: "In his mind the American reaction to our attack on the French fleet in Oran was of the first importance". It was a victory for Churchill in that regard as this event had been received very favourably by the US and meant Churchill's government was taken a lot more serious. The day after the attack Roosevelt would tell the French ambassador that he would have done the same.
Pretty sure that's not what happened. That was just an unintended side effect. Destroying the French Fleet at Mers El Kebir was a practical military decision. The commanders and leaders involved didn't even factor how the Americans would react when they conducted the operation. For the British, they needed to eliminate the French warships that are not on British waters before Germany tries to get Vichy to hand those ships over to the Axis.
@@aaroncabatingan5238 no this is not the case. Churchill had been trying to show the Americans that Britain would stay in it and fight and win. The US for a while thought Germany would win. Churchill needed to show that they could be relied on to do what must be done. The fact FDR himself agreed with the decision says a lot. Churchill was the smartest man in ww2 the only one who realised victory would only occur if he could unite UK US and USSR. And he did it. But it took actions like this to show it and prove to them UK was still a superpower and reliable.
@@lifeunderthestarstv Churchill didn't unite the UK/US with Russia. Hitler did. If Hitler hadn't invaded Russia, Russia would have been more of an ally to Germany. They already shared in the invasion of Poland.
@@lifeunderthestarstv You are right about Churchill's objectives but he never personally gave the order to attack the French fleet... so you can't blame him for this incident, at all.
@@alanjm1234 Allies? The two countries hated each other, it was only a matter of time before war erupted between them, the longer the Germans took to invade Russia, the less likely their chance at winning in Russia. Not to mention that Hitler’s ultimate endgoal was to subdue Russia and replace the natives with Aryan Germans.
Loved the video @The Operations Room! Can't wait for the next video guys! November 1940 Battle of Taranto up next by chance? This is pretty understandable from both sides but yet still worthy of being remembered by making this as a Historic Scenario in Games like "Axis & Allies: War at Sea", much like most other Naval Battles that are both Remembered and Looked over.
Another outstanding video by the Operations Room. I drove home from work so fast when I saw this video uploaded. Thanks for inspiring me to make history videos as well!
I understand how this is a tragic course of events and a really difficult topic, but when you look at the options presented at 2:37 and then understand that the French chose to accept none of them, what choice did Britain have in the end. the German, Italian and French fleets combined would have posed a genuine threat to the Royal Navy and would have caused a loss of control of the Med and potentially North Sea, what would the outcome have been if that happened?
@@josephpriest1488 And see where U.K. is today; but a shadow of it's former glory. One has to step back from *here and now* and appreciate the living history we see around us.
I dunno if this channel could read minds but I was literally re-watching videos on Mers-el Kabir such as histograph and simple history. Well done I have to say the animations are getting better and better (especially little details such as at 8:15 where you could see the turrets of the ships move ), keep up the great work!
The British had to (in their minds) go with the least worst option. Yes, the French later scuttled their fleet in Toulon in November 1942 rather than see it handed over to the Nazi's, but in July 1940, the British could not take the chance of letting those ships possibly become part of the Kriegsmarine. I'm not saying it was the right decision, but in war their are rarely any "right" decisions.
Both sides made the right decision. They were dealt very bad cards and had no win to play. Of course the French couldn't accept British dictates. That would be starting the war on Germany again. It was not up to an Admiral to make that call.
@@bjorntorlarsson Handing over their ships to the British was only one of the options however. Most of the options involved sailing those ships to French possessions elsewhere and interning them there, or having them interred in the USA which at the time was neutral, with their crews returned home. And that is the problem. The French Admiral refused to contemplate any of those options, and he also failed to inform his superiors or Government of the entire contents of the British demands. In essence he lied to his superiors both military and political. If anyone could bear the blame for the attack at Mers al Kabir it is Admiral Gensoul. The French Naval assets in Alexandria were given the same ultimatum and the same options by the British, but THEY resolved the matter peacefully, not a shot being fired by either side.
@@hawk4192 it was especially egregious when Adm Gensoul refused to meet with Capt Holland as a petty tit-for-tat while the lives of thousands of honourable French officers and men were on the line.
@@alganhar1 The ONLY option was to follow the laws made by the democratically elected French parliament. The admiral would rightly have been executed for treason if he had done anything else.
Sad, tragic. Imagine Cpt.Hollands memory of being saluted by French sailors as hes leaving the port.. how impactful that memory of his wouldve been. No wonder he asked to be relieved of command. Absolutely horrible.
i mean if someone told you i wont allow my fleet to fall into the enemies hands just after their whole country has fallen into the enemies hands you wouldnt belive them realistically
@@davidsheffiedeveryone wonders why. Surely the incident in the video and the whole british commitment in the battle of france failed to play a role in this. They do not come to my mind but i'm sure you'll find the racist words that will encapsulate it the best.
An important omission from this video is that the ultimatum also gave the French the option to have their ships interred with a neutral power like the United States. It's important because it's something the French admiralty had previously said they'd accept if it came to that, but wasn't communicated to them by their commanders on the scene. I've also always found the French argument a little odd because it relies on them promising to scuttle the ships if the Germans tried to seize the fleet. But, such a seizure would be done by surprise and while they obviously would have every intention of scuttling, they would have no way to realistically promise it. Yes, they ultimately did scuttle mostly successfully when the seizure eventually came, but that could have gone either way. And history is full of examples of ships being seized before scuttling charges could be adequately set or floated and repaired after a rushed in-port scuttling.
What are you talking about it's not like Germany had even a remotely sound chance of taking the ships. It could not have "gone either way" if you actually read the course of events it would've been a miracle had the Germans gotten onto the ships. It's next to impossible to stop a ship being scuttled.
@@samarkand1585 Whose to say those ships wouldn't move to Toulon anyway, especially when Torch takes place. Heck now that I think about it, if Operation Torch happened and the French fleet in Mers is still intact, those ships would end up fighting the Allies anyway and get sunk(like the French fleet in Casablanca). Or move to Toulon, and get scuttled.
@N Fels Your argument is based on hindsight. Unfortunately, the British doesn't have the power to see the future. Admiral Darland promised in 1940 that if France was defeated, the French fleet would depart for the French Caribbean. That did not happen. Admiral Darland became a fierce supporter of Vichy France. So the British can't really rely on the French promise that they would scuttle their own warships, not after they break their own word recently.
I’m not sure if I missed something, but I hope you’re going to make a part 2 for the battle of Ia Drang Valley. I thought the first video was fascinating, especially just after rewatching We Were Soldiers, and I was very excited to see what happened next. I love the format and quality of your videos, and your narration is fantastic. I have been putting off reading about the rest of the battle beyond what was covered in the first video, so I hope you are still considering making a follow up. Whether you do or not, though, I love your work, and the effort you put in really shows!
The Fleet Without a Friend by John Vader. 1971, paperback 1973: 450 01226 3. New England Library This is an excellent review of this incident and the role of Darlan and his personal animosity towards the British which caused a breakdown in Trust. No winners from this and huge mistrust that lasted years. Operation Torch saw the French open fire on British and Commonwealth Troops and pointless casualties as a consequence of this action.
Imagine how much that would've helped France's reputation post-war. Instead, they look like some sideline-sitters, waiting to align with the winners, even if they were Nazis who just decimated their country.
Sure, but Gensoul had no real or legitimate reasons to do so. In his perspective, there was still a legitimate French government and the French Navy hadn't been involved in any fighting during the battle of France, so it's understandable that being suddenly ordered by the Brits to sink his own ships was totally out of the question. Also, back then a lot of French people, more so among mostly conservative French officers, still saw the UK as historical adversaries, if not enemies. In the end, between the gravity of the situation in western Europe and Gensoul's blind intransigence, it was indeed a disastrous tragedy for everyone involved.
I wonder how different history would've been had the French Fleet agreed to join the British one. I know it would've never happened. But someone has got to have wondered "What if." Nice video.
@@volcanares9620 they wouldn't as seen by the scuttling of the rest of the navy Anyway viche France was already considered an enemy by the allis so it wouldn't really affect much
To be fair, it’s understandable from British perspective. The Italians had a pretty strong force, with the possible French navy it could have been a major threat
Agreed with a caveat: In the event, RaDAR advantage became the Great Equalizer. Allied advances in technology of radio range and direction finding and fire control spelt the end of opposing naval relevance. Seetakt, IJN RaDARs (Type 13, 21, and so on) and Gufo were simply too far behind to compete. Metox (an early RaDAR Warning Receiver) was good until millimetric frequencies came into use. In my view, with apologies: Attacking the French anchorage was politically the same as looking for a lost contact lens where the light is better, instead of looking where you lost it. To whit: Churchill and his marshals hadn't a German fleet pinned in a tiny port with almost no AA defenses, so he/they beat living hell out of the one he/they COULD get hands on. It (the attack) did nothing to assure the French they had a strong, faithful, ally in Great Britain and the UK. In fact, it proved quite the opposite; that the UK was a formidable enemy . . . even to erstwhile friends. Ask India. And China. And South Africa. And the Middle East. And what's that other place-Afghanistan. From my perspective it's always the same lesson taught.
It's only understandable if you buy that the best option was to double down and expand the war to a global scale with the aim of eventually winning years later at tremendous cost to both the UK and the world. Tens of millions of lives and untold cruelty. Eventually ally with Stalin (who invaded Poland, the defense of which was supposedly the whole reason for declaring war on Germany), eventually giving Uncle Joe half of Europe, oh and also firebombing central Europe and starving its people through blockade. Britain was left wrecked financially and morally and had to give up its empire immediately afterwards. If you agree this was definitely a better option than a white peace then sure it might make sense to kill thousands of Frenchmen while you're at it. At that point you might as well do anything to justify your 'defeat Germany at any price' policy.
It was not. The french capitulation expressed very few conditions but one was that it's navy would remain in Toulon (south of France in free area) and shall never be use by the Axis. It never was and when the free area was eventually invaded by the third Reich, the french government of Vichy indeed gave the order to sunk all ships witch was done before the german take any of them. All that was communicated to the British they just refused to trust the french and preferred to destroy every bit of french navy they could, "just to be sure". As said elsewhere, those events felt like an incredible backstabbing to the french population.
They were out-thought, as were the British, who quickly abandoned them to their fate. With 9 months to prepare the mighty British Army was beaten up by a single weak German Army Group, put its tail between its legs and ran home to mummy. The French were dragged into a war they couldn't win, sold up the river by their shitty "Ally", then attacked by that "Ally" over and over again. They were also attacked by over a million Germans with 1200 tanks with almost complete air superiority and later, by the Italians too but hey, what does that matter... Both France and Britain were beaten by a better led enemy. Only the English Channel saved England, their mighty army sure as hell wouldn't have
Yet another example of a powerful navy with its brave sailors be doomed by incompetent leaders, there seem to be plenty of them in WW2. Italy comes to mind. I guess because of the early surrender of France, the MN is often taken off of the equation too fast and even less people take her in consideration. Thank you for this video and reminder.
@@mustlovedragons8047 MN is short for the Marine Nationale, the French navy, and what remained of it under the control of Vichy. There's also FNFL for Forces Navales Françaises Libres for the navy under control of Free French Forces after France's surrender. Acronyms are common to shorten navies' names RN for Royal Navy USN for United States Navy RM for Regia Marina KM for KriegsMarine IJN for Imperial Japanese Navy And so on.
Hum, not agreeing on this one. The French admiralty was actually very competent. But you must realise that if Gensoul had accepted any British conditions, Germany would have invaded the free zone. It’s not a black and white situation. Both points are understandable.
They were in the middle of armistice negotiations. Youd recon it be clear that aside from gensoul performing treason breaking the armistice would have a terrible outcome/penalties for france.
A month, just 30 days before this event. French soldiers were dying near dunkirk to allow the english army to flee France. Keep that in perspective when you think about what was done here.
yes and if you knew anything about that part of the war you would also know that 130.000 french soldiers were evacuated from Dunkirk and fifty thousand British troops were left behind to be captured oh and british soldiers were also being killed in their thousands at Dunkirk when the French evacuated troops were asked if they would fight with the British 90% voted to return to France and captivity to the Germans until the vichy french had them released on a promise to not join the allies its all there if you want to know the real truth
@@josephberrie9550 Thanks, I did not know that detail. I heard also that the French navy officers were the most reluctant to rejoin the allies due to this event. Think I read it in a book a lont time ago, so I can not give the detals.
I love all of your videos, Is there a way I can add Portuguese subtitles to them ? I want to show your videos to my friends but they don't speak English
Probably one of the best video talking of this tragical event. Most of the video out there are quite superficial if not caricatural, and most of them talks only about the English side, so thank you and good job. I was not aware the french made bombardment raid on Gibraltar following this event. May I add something, as you said it shocked the french and pushed them deeper into the axis orbit, for a lot of them any person or nation joining the British side were judged as traitor. Later on, it didn't helped to convince french officer or civil authority in colonies, to join the free french, like when British try the same kind of thing in other ports like Dakkar or like at Libreville in Gabon where to french sloops fight each other (Savorgnan de Brazza sunked Bougainville) or during Operation Exporter in Syria (a forgotten battle). US will also suffer from that when they will land in north Africa. An other thing that Churchill might have missed while planing Catapult (or maybe he knew and take it as a risk), was that if any ships survived or could be roughly repaired, the only place where they could do further reparation in Mediteranean sea was at Toulon, a place much closer to Germany and its armys than in any port of North Africa, and that's what happened for the rest of the ships present in Mers el Kebir that day, they all join the safety of Toulon or its shipyard for repairs, and most of them were scuttled when german arrived. The legend say that they sent a message to tell the british that they kept their words and fulfill their promise to not let the axis take controle of their ships. As for Alexandria the two officer in charge of British and French fleets were in good in good terms so it helps greatly with deescalate the situation and avoid an other blood bath, the french accepted to demilitarize their ships and still fulfill the secret order of Darlan by keeping french colours and french controle of the ships. Anyway I love your work! NB : I must admit that my knowledge come mainly from what I found on internet, so every bit of information could be wrong X)
Sommerville's communication to the French in full: It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer, we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose, we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty’s Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers-el-Kébir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives: (a) Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans and Italians. (b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment. If either of these courses is adopted by you, we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation, if they are damaged meanwhile. (c) Alternatively, if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews, to some French port in the West Indies-Martinique for instance-where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must, with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours. For some reason this video does not mention the option of sending the ships to the United States.
I think its important to remember before judging Gensoul that he could not know what we know now, that the vichy french government would quickly become an axis puppet. I imagine in his mind and the minds of the french sailors they could not give up their ships because they needed to fight for what was left of their country, currently being invaded by a foreign power, not to mention their duty to follow orders to the letter. Imagine being one of those sailors, your fleet could make a difference and strike back at the enemy taking your homeland and then your allies ask you to give it up or be destroyed. Tragic situation, even the british officers said they would have done the same.
He could not know the British would sink his fleet after the British stated they came to sink the fleet if the French did not comply to their demands? And the only thing left of France was a Fascist puppet state. Not much to fight for in my opinion..
Admiral Gensoult was blind by his anglophobia. I think he is the main responsible here. Like many french high commander and politicians in 1940, he was too short-sighted for his role. He led this fleet to its destruction. Shame on him !
Uh Imagine being admiral of what was at the time called the second strongest fleet in the world and your ALLY asks you to dismantle your ships or they attack. The choice was justified, fault's on the British hands who only cared about their safety rather than about its allies.
@@antera1524 They aren't an ally if taken over by the germans, they had the option to join the british too dont just ignore that... If the fleet fell into german hands it could have prevented france even becoming an independent state again. It was tough love.
A story direct from Churchills memoirs relayed to him from M.Teitgen of the French resistance. There was a village near Toulon where two families lost their sailor sons from British fire at Oran. At the funeral , at the the request of both families, a Union Jack was laid upon the coffins side by side with the Tricolour.
@@tanner1111 No, it was part of the initial ultimatum. See the last part of option (c) below: ------ It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers el Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives; (a) Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans. (b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment. If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile. (c) Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands. ------ Given that Darlan's final pre-armistice orders to Gensoul included the option of sailing the ships to the US if an enemy tried to seize his ships, this is a major omission. (Both on the part of Ops Room, and on the part of Gensoul - mentioning that to Darlan in his communications might well have changed many things.)
EVERY leader worth the name would have had to do the same thing. The French admiral could have shown some of the courage of a certain general De Gaulle, and taken the fleet to England to continue the fight to try and liberate his great nation
@@andrewlucia865 You talk like there were no foreigners in the Kriegsmarine and that the RN were somehow special and above the other navies of the world because people were joining it. Foreigners join every navy, it's perfectly normal. Only Britain ever bragged about it. But Britain will literally clutch at any straw, no matter how weak, to justify it's war. "Look, we must be in the right coz look at all these people joining us". Well no, Britain, you're a criminal state which plundered the planet As for "free", those countries were only occupied (Soviet Union excepted) because Britain were using them as proxies or outright occupying them. And free? Are they not members of the dictatorial EU which Britain abandoned for exactly that reason?
@@commisaryarreck3974 legitimate under Nazi occupation you mean. If so then the fleet was a legitimate target as Vichy France were a part of the Axis and killed thousands of allied troops.
@@samscopeproductionz The Vichy never joined the axis But indeed they killed thousands of foreign invaders, and were so loyal to the axis that they fought to the death to prevent the axis they were supposedly part of from taking their ships I won't argue it wasn't under nazi occupation, that's retarded. I will argue the Vichy part of it wasn't. Rather I'd argue it was at gunpoint, constant threat with a thin veil of "independence" More then the Dutch got, we got collaborators that went on fighting even after the Germans surrendered. For a nation that fled the mainland but never surrendered Or any other occupied nation for that matter De Gaulle was nothing more then some illegitimate warlord that refused to accept his legitimate governments surrender. An arrogant one at that, demanding to be treated like a victorious power rather then an occupied nation
@@commisaryarreck3974 but…. It wasn’t the Axis who were trying to take their ships, it was the British, they fought to the death to prevent the Allies from taking it off the Nazis… Vichy France killed thousands of Allies in North Africa in Morocco/Algeria. French Police collaborated with the Gestapo to hunt down French Jews and didn’t bat an eyelid at atrocities such as Haute-Vienne. De Gaulle was not illegitimate, Phillipe Pètain was, a man, who with the backing of the Nazis turned his nation into a quasi-police state who blamed Frances defeat on Communists, Socialists and Jews. De Gaulle represented the remnants of the legitimate Third French Republic, which is why post war, he was a hero, and Petain got a death sentence.
An impossible position for both sides. One wonders what might have happened had someone other than Gensoul been in command and more willing to communicate.
It's not impossible. When your commanding officer tells you to risk your forces falling into the hands of fascists, you get out your sidearm and solve the problem.
This is a misrepresentation of the ultimatum the French received. First: Here are the options, as given by Somervile. a) ''Sail With us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.'' b) ''Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment.'' NOT at the end of the war c) ''Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.'' ''If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.'' A very important correction. The French admiral was explicitly, given the option to sail his ships to the United States of America. Second: The French Admiral had been explicitly told, at a previous point in time that he would receive no further orders from the Vichy French government. By disobeying this simple order, he has put the citizens of the nation he swore to protect, in direct danger. As now, any actions taken at Mers El Kabir is no longer the decision of the admiral. But the Vichy French government, which in turn puts the citizens in danger of German reprisals.
i'm french. i wish our fleet had decided to fight alongside britain. our ships could have been of great help to the war effort and it would have avoided so many deaths
I think that it would have happened but Britain gave too little time to consider and because it was ultimatum it is understandable that French Navy acted like it did. Most shamefull day for British navy.
@@Pectopah123 I would disagree with that, it was not a shameful day but it was a very very sad day. Imaging if those ships would have fallen into the hands of the Germans, there was clearly a lot of confusion in France at the time (as there would have been with any other country in that position) as to what they were going to do next. The British had little choice but to make the decision for them in the end. Such a terrible day particularly for all those that lost their life’s , much of it was caused by confusion in communication and pride standing in the way of the decision needed.
@@davidbarlee4722 OK. shamefull is a harsh word, but how would you discribe when you're back stabbing your own ally and killing their soldier after they honored one of your officers? Most SHAMEFULL day in British navy. It was cowards choise.
@@Pectopah123 again I would disagree with you, in war you have to make hard decisions. Sadly by this point the French navy was no longer ally but a very realistic threat. War is unfair and harsh ( anyone with a knowledge of the history of war will tell you that). It wasn’t a cowardly attack, they were given warning ,a deadline and options but chose none of them because they received no assistance for the chain of command. They were left to fend for themselves unsure of what to do. I ask you what would you have done if you had been on either side ?
@@davidbarlee4722 I would have used a better judgement and trust my ally to sunk the ships if German would have taken them. It's weird that Brits seemed trust more Germans who occupied France than The Word of honor a French officer and ally. Why Britain just surrender when Hitler offered it? Your logic is weird. There is no way that French soldiers had given those ships intact to Germany. Toulon 1942.
"Insulted that a captain had been sent to deal with an admiral." Oh look! Another historical example of enlisted men getting killed because of the ego of officers.
Yeah when I heard that I was like this guy was dumb
That's true what you say, but the British should have anticipated that and sent a higher ranking officer. All navies in WWII had pompous admirals, and in such an important undertaking you would think that Britain would have had a 'better safe than sorry' attitude to their negotiation with the French.
@@BigBrianStormer the crucial bit of information missed out by the video is that he was literally the only French speaker in the British fleet, and so sending an admiral would be pointless and time consuming for an already sharp deadljne
Or, maybe the guy was just stalling for time. After all he was trying to get orders from the French admiralty at the time.
@@BigBrianStormer If the French had given us more notice that they were going to perfidiously hand over their ships to Germany in breach of our agreements we could have arranged to provide a more senior fluent French speaking officer.
This is honestly really depressing. I would absolutely have hated to be any of the sailors on either side. Especially considering how the French sailors even saluted Holland as he left. It’s honorable that he willingly resigned from his position, because I couldn’t imagine what he had to have felt being involved in such a terrible situation. War truly never is black and white. A horrible situation all around and a needless waste of young lives.
@@DaveSCameron “Your man will fight to their death when there is no escape” - Sun Tsu, Art Of War.
Well said
I imagine it explain a lot on why the british got spanked hard at the battle of Dakar afterwards by the French
The polish were in a similar position and ended up mostly either scuttling their ships, dying, or fleeing to british territory and joining up with the royal navy. They'd planned on pulling back to Romania and using british allies to ferry supplies to Romania to resupply their army while they hid in Romania while France prepared for their promised attack on the western front.
@@ommsterlitz1805 That was a Vichy French victory was it?
What's sad about this is that, despite the attack, the French DID scuttle their ships just as they promised they would if the Germans invaded Vichy France. But there was no way anyone in Britain could have known with certainty that was going to happen. This hindsight just makes the whole affair more disheartening.
Yeah and then you hear aout the french being dishonourable...
The French were the only ones who stepped up to stop Hitler before the war, but every Nation believed Germany's propaganda and chastised the French and ordered them to leave the Germans alone so they had to pull back.
Yes, however, the French attempts to stop Germany were largely defensive in nature, hence the Maginot Line and the building of their fleets. I don't think the French were dishonorable, but divided and this division is what has caused the attitude people have with France during this time period. With the rise of those who followed "Vichy" ideas I think it is conceivable that France could have joined the Axis if WWII had started a few years later or at least enter into a non-aggression pact like Russia. I also believe that Britain was not dishonorable but, despite their alliance with France, prudent. I would even contend that the alliance with France was null and void once Vichy took power over what was left of France. There was no guarantee such as we have today with the benefit of hindsight that the French would follow through, especially since Vichy's government was, if only limited, on friendly terms with Germany, who had completely demilitarized their land forces in a few short months. Additionally, Poland was annihilated, Greece and Romania had no serious military at all, Spain was in a state of civil war, Russia and Germany had a non-aggression pact and the only major power left to help was the far away country of America across the Atlantic Ocean which still had to contend with the deadly U-boat crews. If the surface fleet of France did join the Germans and Italians, then such naval supremacy would have firmly placed naval power, perhaps permanently, into their favor on the sea. This invasion could even had taken place before the USA was able to figure out a way to properly escort their supply convoys across the sea. Between this powerful naval combination, and a far from yet depleted air force, Germany could easily have had sufficient anti air cover to stage a naval invasion regardless of the number of British aircraft or sea vessels it could field.
Well the thing is even if they were being honest about scuttling their ships being able to actually do it is another thing, like what the British did to French ships in Plymouth. They boarded and took over the ships before they could scuttle or sail out.
@@MisterGame68
I can't understand how such brave soldiers, fighting in various places at one against ten
(sometimes even one against thirty), still manage to find enough strength to go on the assault: it's simply amazing !
I find among the French soldiers of Dunkirk the same ardour as that of the poilus of Verdun in 1916.
For several days hundreds of bombers and guns have been pounding the French defences. However, it is still the same thing, our infantry and tanks cannot break through, despite some ephemeral local successes."
" "Dunkirk proves to me that the French soldier is one of the best in the world. The French artillery, so feared in 14-18, once again demonstrated its dreaded effectiveness. Our losses are terrifying: many battalions have lost 60% of their strength, sometimes even more! “
"By resisting about ten days to our forces, which were significantly superior in terms of numbers and resources, the French army achieved a superb feat in Dunkirk that is to be commended. It certainly saved Britain from defeat, by allowing its professional army to reach the English coast."
General Von Küchler commandant of the XVIII army
during the last stand of the french army to cover the british at Dunkirk.
The origins of this reputation:
The Dunkirk episode was far worse than was ever realized … The men getting back to England were so demoralized they threw their rifles & equipment out of the windows of railway-carriages. Some sent for their wives & their civilian clothes, changed into these & walked home.”
Even Churchill was honest (in private) when he declared to Hugh Dalton, a prominent member of the Labour Party, who later became Minister of Economic Warfare in Churchill’s cabinet, that Dunkirk was “the greatest British military defeat for many centuries.”
General Mason-Macfarlane, the head of military intelligence, summoned journalists and told them that they were to inform the British public
to blame the French for “not fighting,” and to proclaim that the B.E.F. was “undefeated.”
On May 30, 1940, the BBC announced that “men of the undefeated B.E.F. have been coming home from France.
They did not come back in triumph, they have come back in glory.”
My great uncle was a junior officer on the Dunkerque and survived the engagement. He held a somewhat balanced point of view on the event, without much hate against the British while still regretting it had came to this and regretting the Royal Navy's relentlessness to destroy the French fleet, needlessly killing more French personnels. In 1943, he survived another attack from the Brits when his submarine was sunk near Diégo-Suarez, off Madagascar's northernmost tip. He swam for hours, with his men dying left and right around him, either by drowning or eaten by sharks, until he was picked up by the Royal Navy.
It was needless only in that Gensoul should have passed up to his superiors the ultimatum and saved his men. I'm sure none of the British wanted it to go the way it did.
Thank you for this. Very moving.
So your great uncle was French naval officer? On which side he fought at 1943 when his submarine was sunked?
@@TheRevisor If sunk again by the British, the Vichy one.
Good man and best wishes 🙏
Glad you made this, this doesn't get enough coverage and it's such a fascinating and sad moment of the war.
Are you even a military history channel if you dont do a video on mers el kebir
doesnt get enough coverage? the fuck? it was a huge deal.... i see over a dozen books and 2 movies about it. its also got a hundred videos on youtube covering it...... you need to expand your sources for historical content my dude.
@@oscarrigo5358
And for good reason
@@oscarrigo5358 Yeah. It's a shame Gensoul couldn't put his pride aside.
The french haven't stopped whining about it since - like Dunkerque, where they were crying because some of the rearguard left behind ON FRENCH SOIL were french. There is too little gratitude for France being free now because of the evil royal navy and heartless British who rescued the troops THEY SENT TO FRANCE TO DEFEND that thankless nation.
I've been fascinated by WW2 my whole life, even studying some the war in college, yet somehow there are still major events like this one that are completely new to me. Incredible story.
This was covered in the TV Serie World at War
Because history books are written by the winners, and they tend to avoid stories like this.
@@mymaster416well it has been covered extensively in most recountings of the early parts of the war.
The problem is it's not a war crime or a victory or anything. It's just a sad and pointless loss of life because Gensoul was an idiot and Churchill's orders didn't allow for his level of of idiocy.
This was freinds killing freinds because the man at the top of the chain of command didn't want to face reality.
It should be noted same tactic worked elsewhere with no issues and every other defeated nations militarys fought on as either free nations or within the British command structure. The French mostly didn't because the high ranking admirals and generals did not want to fight on and they existed within a chain of command.
That's by design.
Drachinifel did a very nice breakdown of the political and personal motivations and actions that resulted in the tragedy and I must say that I agree with his conclusion. Right or wrong, Force H was there. Admiral Somerville had his orders and he was going to carry them out. Gensoul had an obligation to the men under his command to safeguard their lives as best he could. His refusal to accept the British terms, which would see him allowed to sail to the West Indies, where his ships would be safe from German or British attack, was what finally resulted in the tragedy at Mers El Kebir. It didn't have to end the way it did but Gensoul's actions made such a result unavoidable.
Another option was safe Harbour in the US. I can imagine another timeline in where such a fleet would be utilised in conjunction with the US fleet in the Pacific. A shame really.
Yes of course, come on please people, if you don't know your history then your life's a mystery *
@@callumwilliams1449 Unlikely as there were no carriers, battleships wasn’t what the us was looking for.
Extremely smart not to respect the German conditions in full armistice negotiations which will decide the future of the French
@@callumwilliams1449 imagine the dunkerques and richelieus in conjuction with the allied fleets, on Norway or the pacific such a powerfull display , but no, just scrap metal at the end because of brain dead admirals
It's a really sorry incident that might have been avoided if Somerville had been able to speak directly with Gensoul to ensure the terms are actually listened to. The fact Holland resigned and Somerville objected at the operation from the start shows the Navy itself didn't want to take the action it did, but ultimately, the Royal Navy couldn't fight the German, Italian AND French navies all at once, especially given the high quality of a good number of the French ships and is a reminder that war is a dirty business that gets people needlessly killed. The fact it's still a sore subject for the French in general and the Royal Navy is not unwarranted.
What's the point of Somerville going when he couldn't speak or understand French, while Holland could, and Holland being the French liaison in the past? The opinions and guilt they had came from faulty information because of Gensoul's pride.
@@SennaAugustus Gensoul's pride is the least understandable part of this entire affair.
Set the pride aside and save your men, dammit.
Somerville tried to speak to Gensoul. Literally all Gensoul had to do was to agree to his ships being interrned.
@@SuperCatacataare you joking? Sorry
It's always good to see a new Operations Room video being uploaded, knowing that I will enjoy the entirety of it.
Agree
Even the intro is enjoyed
@@nicholasofthetube4557yeah the intro is fire
#sycophants
HMS Ark Royal has a notable history. The ship participating in a majority of the significant battles of the Atlantic and Mediterranean naval theaters, including this one. She also aided in hunting the Graf Spee, the Scharnhorst, the Gneisenau, and eventually the Bismarck, as well as providing support to Malta. In my opinion, a record equally as impressive as the great aircraft carrier USS Enterprise. The ship deserves more recognition for its contributions to the British naval fleet.
The British Version of USS Enterprise
She also influenced the design of all post war British carrier's and the modern day queen Elizabeth carrier as ark royal was sunk due to the engine room flooding so from that point all carrier's in the royal navy had two engine rooms.
My grandfather served on ark royal as a swordfish pilot. He was a wing commander. It was his squadron that hit the Bismarck’s rudder. He was also part of this raid, and he hit one of the french capitol ships with a torpedo.
@@pliat cool 👍
@@jadeorbigoso5212 Its generally considered that Warspite is the British version of Enterprise.
The hard part is even though they scuttled their ships, there’s always a chance they could easily have been taken before scuttle. Everything makes sense but it’s sad. Lack of communication is such a drag.
Which makes it even worse in hindsight that they didn't properly talk things out. Simply because a French Admiral was too prideful to meet with a captain.
my grandma brother was in a foxhole during this battle as a young conscript, his best mate vanish when a shell fall in his shelter, he never find a bit of him, he never had a good vibes towards the Brits, he finished the war in the free french forces in Germany thanks for him to have translated this sad story in english "we needed more time" that what he always said . tonight you won a new subscriber thanks!
This is one of those "history is not black and white" moments.
This is one of those "Anglos are not human" moments.
@@woodendoor2719 perhaps the French fleet should have been left for the Germans to take over. How many British lives would that have cost?
@@lloydnaylor6113 Not enough.
@@lloydnaylor6113 Wouldn't bother with him, he's clearly a troll
@@silverhost9782 a nasty sad invidual mate by the looks of it .
Gensoul's arrogance and lying through omission when communicating with the French Admiralty wasted a lot of French lives and ships.
Darlan turning into a Vichy Fascist was probably worse still. A more reasonable way this could've gone would be to have Britain send an Admiral to meet Gensoul, and explain the situation at the port, rather than broadcasting to the entire fleet. At least would've saved more lives, but given that Gensoul didn't want to abandon Mers El Kebir, or his Government via Royal Navy Escort it wouldn't have changed a great deal. They would've consulted Darlan anyway who, at that point was already too compliant with the Nazis to do anything useful or, too busy with the Armistace and moving to Vichy.
@@choobs8511 Did any admirals speak French?
@@VineFynn probably, English wasnt yet as opressive as today due to internet and the era of information forcing everyone to learn the language, and French was always an important language in europe
I just finished the Somerville papers from the naval record society, the man carried his order against his own will and was hunted for what he did.
He was also the man to endure the Japanese raid into the Indian Ocean with relic old battleships when Phillips threw away force Z and pearl harbour in ruin, the one to lead the daring raid deep into Genoa against the superior Italian forces, and the one to save the dignity of Tovey by bring Bismarck to him when Home Fleet units failed, the one to first invent W/T controlled fighter interception to make carrier fighters useful, or the one to creatively introduce the idea of using carriers to ferry fighters to malta without needing a merchantman to actually reach the island. He faced some of the worst situations in the war and arguably saved the war by not losing everything to a superior foe and letting the allies be cut in half in 1942 in the Indian Ocean, saving the supply lines to Russia through Iran, the communication between the Persian oil fields, India and UK, as well as the airroad to China through northern India. Yet he received so little attention after the war with no recognition like ABC, Tovey, or Nimitz, Halsey. He may not be the one to offer glorious victories, but he was the one to be relied on when the impossible and unspeakable needed to be done. That is noble in its own way.
Also, he kept a pet monkey, which is cool.
He did not save the war for the Allies by any stretch of the imagination, but this is an interesting list of achievements from someone few people know about.
Your description of him gives me Perturabo vibes.
The fight that kept the allies from being split was the navel battles off Guadalcanal. And that was an American show.
@@trumpetedeagle2 It's actually midway, midway eliminated any possibility for the IJN to master enough mobile strength to threat the west indian line. Gua was the important for the Pacific war but midway for the World war, freeing the allies to redirect their resources to Midterranean, Atlantic as well as to counter attack around Gua. Somerville did a good job not to loss in April and NImitz finished the task of winning in June. I think Andrew Boyd has written extensively on this subject, he explained things far better than I could.
My father was an officer on board Foxhound and part of the compliment involved in the negotiations, he said that it was one of the saddest days of his war.
Very good work but a few little mistakes : French battleships were anchored by the stern to the jetty, not by the bow, Dunkerque and Strasbourg having their main turrets only facing Africa, not the sea ; and only Mogador was disabled by shellfire, the 5 others DD escaping with Strasbourg.
And you forget to mention the swordfish torpedo attack on Dunkerque the following 6th of july, wich effectively disabled the ship much more than the shellfire and killed 200 more sailors due to, there we can say it without a doubt, by the stupidity of some french officers (I'm french) : telling by radio on a public statement that the ship was not severely damaged, mooring a barge full of depth charges alongside the ship, which was not protected by torpedo nets, using it (the barge) for evacuate the crew during the air attack, when it was blown up by one of the torpedoes... (Read French Battleships by John Jordan and Robert Dumas for more details)
There was also a British attempt to enter the harbour to scuttle vessels, using destroyers, which seems to have been written out of history. My great uncle was killed on one of them and he wasn't the only casualty.
So you have investigated this? Were French battle ready when British open fire?
@@juhopuhakka2351 No, it's just I've read many books on this operation, I am not an historian (and sorry for my english). I suggest you to check on various websites (eng.wikipedia, as it is today, gives an incorrect date for the second attack, the 8th, not the 6th...) and if you could, the book i mentioned earlier, very very well made.
And for the readiness of the french battleships, to make it short and quick, they have the whole day to prepare. They open fire almost instantly but only Dunkerque and Provence (some turrets, not all) could reply because the english bbs opened fire from NE, from behind a mountain, on the french ships who have to fire above each other. Some sources says that Hood was engaged by Dunkerque and two sailors suffered some injuries from shell splinters.
The order given by Gensoul for sailing was Strasbourg first, then Dunkerque, then Bretagne and Provence. Strasbourg was able to flee because its officers did well (a salvo of 15" fall where she was the minute before), not Dunkerque, who was still moored for many minutes because the crew and its officers acted poorly, then suffers hits on her machinery and has to beach herself. By the time it was their turn, Bretagne has already blown up and Provence too badly damaged has to beach itself too.
@@LUPUSLELUPUS
Greetings from North Carolina Monsieur Lupus... it seems that you should put together a video about this subject. Your knowledge of this awful event is very impressive.
@@LUPUSLELUPUS Merci thanks for sharing
I've watched many of your videos, and this one is easily one of the best. The topic was very well chosen. It's a battle where the viewer is gripped and waiting for the play-by-play revealing of what comes next that you do expertly deliver. And then the overlayed geopolitical consequences left me stunned by the end. Bravo!
Loving the upload speed. Went from months between videos, to just weeks. And the quality is amazing as ever. Full support guys, keep it up!!!!
I learned about this WWII episode years ago but forgot a lot of it. Not only did you refresh my memory, you enhanced my understanding to a higher level. Well done presentation. Thanks.
I've heard about the British sinking the French fleet to avoid it falling into German hands. But never knew the full story.
As always a well presented video loving watching your videos.
This is not even the beginning of the story...
Beta: Admire British ruthlessness
Sigma: Admire French valor
@Alfred flee at dunkirk*
@@smal750 To keep fighting. Not to surrender or stand idly by as some.
@@Ragedaonenlonely Then to be saved by America. And to save Britain from Axis onslaught
One of the greatest channels on UA-cam. Great education, well researched, and expertly animated and produced.
Just wanted to say that it makes me so happy to see how popular your channel has become, i really do wish everyone involved all the best in the future, and to cap that 1mil sub mark quickly! Diamond quality content
Visualizing the incident really helped put things into perspective, and it's one of the things I love about this channel.
I've seen a half dozen different accounts of the incident at Mers el Kebir, and I've come away with new information each time.
But through each and every single one, there has been a constant thread: tragedy. No matter how rational or understandable each step, each decision was, _this could have been avoided._
Many French sailors, through no crime except duty to their orders, died because of the inaction, ineptitude, or arrogance of officers.
I can understand seeing the incident as a travesty, as betrayal. However, I can equally well see the justifications for it. It is tragedy of the purest kind.
English People are just so full of churchill's lie. Churchill just wanted thé US help and spread the false fear of the french fleet falling into german hands by his propaganda. As he spreadthe myth ofthefrench unwilling to fight in dunkirk however we save his ass. This is a fellony.
This was also a play by Churchill to prove to Roosevelt that he was serious about winning the war. Churchill's private secretary: "In his mind the American reaction to our attack on the French fleet in Oran was of the first importance". It was a victory for Churchill in that regard as this event had been received very favourably by the US and meant Churchill's government was taken a lot more serious. The day after the attack Roosevelt would tell the French ambassador that he would have done the same.
Pretty sure that's not what happened. That was just an unintended side effect. Destroying the French Fleet at Mers El Kebir was a practical military decision. The commanders and leaders involved didn't even factor how the Americans would react when they conducted the operation. For the British, they needed to eliminate the French warships that are not on British waters before Germany tries to get Vichy to hand those ships over to the Axis.
@@aaroncabatingan5238 no this is not the case. Churchill had been trying to show the Americans that Britain would stay in it and fight and win. The US for a while thought Germany would win. Churchill needed to show that they could be relied on to do what must be done. The fact FDR himself agreed with the decision says a lot. Churchill was the smartest man in ww2 the only one who realised victory would only occur if he could unite UK US and USSR. And he did it. But it took actions like this to show it and prove to them UK was still a superpower and reliable.
@@lifeunderthestarstv Churchill didn't unite the UK/US with Russia. Hitler did.
If Hitler hadn't invaded Russia, Russia would have been more of an ally to Germany. They already shared in the invasion of Poland.
@@lifeunderthestarstv You are right about Churchill's objectives but he never personally gave the order to attack the French fleet... so you can't blame him for this incident, at all.
@@alanjm1234 Allies? The two countries hated each other, it was only a matter of time before war erupted between them, the longer the Germans took to invade Russia, the less likely their chance at winning in Russia. Not to mention that Hitler’s ultimate endgoal was to subdue Russia and replace the natives with Aryan Germans.
Thank you so much for making these videos. You are one of the few people I get excited about when I see new content from the bell!
Rewatching all your stuff. Impressive work!
Loved the video @The Operations Room! Can't wait for the next video guys! November 1940 Battle of Taranto up next by chance? This is pretty understandable from both sides but yet still worthy of being remembered by making this as a Historic Scenario in Games like "Axis & Allies: War at Sea", much like most other Naval Battles that are both Remembered and Looked over.
Another outstanding video by the Operations Room. I drove home from work so fast when I saw this video uploaded. Thanks for inspiring me to make history videos as well!
Great channel although you seem new to making history videos! Keep of the good content.
I understand how this is a tragic course of events and a really difficult topic, but when you look at the options presented at 2:37 and then understand that the French chose to accept none of them, what choice did Britain have in the end. the German, Italian and French fleets combined would have posed a genuine threat to the Royal Navy and would have caused a loss of control of the Med and potentially North Sea, what would the outcome have been if that happened?
Colonial Briton losing it’s imperial colonies, the exact outcome that happened 20 years later in the 60’s
@@josephpriest1488 And see where U.K. is today; but a shadow of it's former glory. One has to step back from *here and now* and appreciate the living history we see around us.
Hitler was never to be trusted, he would have used the French Naval ships against the Allies, no matter what his promises were.
@@nickcastings1568 used them how, they were in Africa
@@nickcastings1568 Germany don't have fuel for this ships
I've never heard of this.
You are an amazing story teller. Love your work
The Operations Room is easily my favorite channel and it keeps getting better with each new video / history lesson. Thank you for the great work!!!!
I dunno if this channel could read minds but I was literally re-watching videos on Mers-el Kabir such as histograph and simple history.
Well done I have to say the animations are getting better and better (especially little details such as at 8:15 where you could see the turrets of the ships move ), keep up the great work!
Every video you put out is top quality. The new gold standard for the genre. 🍻
Thank you for the uploads Operation Room
The British had to (in their minds) go with the least worst option. Yes, the French later scuttled their fleet in Toulon in November 1942 rather than see it handed over to the Nazi's, but in July 1940, the British could not take the chance of letting those ships possibly become part of the Kriegsmarine. I'm not saying it was the right decision, but in war their are rarely any "right" decisions.
Could likely have been avoided if not for 1 French Admiral having insufferable arrogance and terrible leadership skills.
Both sides made the right decision. They were dealt very bad cards and had no win to play. Of course the French couldn't accept British dictates. That would be starting the war on Germany again. It was not up to an Admiral to make that call.
@@bjorntorlarsson Handing over their ships to the British was only one of the options however. Most of the options involved sailing those ships to French possessions elsewhere and interning them there, or having them interred in the USA which at the time was neutral, with their crews returned home. And that is the problem. The French Admiral refused to contemplate any of those options, and he also failed to inform his superiors or Government of the entire contents of the British demands. In essence he lied to his superiors both military and political.
If anyone could bear the blame for the attack at Mers al Kabir it is Admiral Gensoul. The French Naval assets in Alexandria were given the same ultimatum and the same options by the British, but THEY resolved the matter peacefully, not a shot being fired by either side.
@@hawk4192 it was especially egregious when Adm Gensoul refused to meet with Capt Holland as a petty tit-for-tat while the lives of thousands of honourable French officers and men were on the line.
@@alganhar1 The ONLY option was to follow the laws made by the democratically elected French parliament. The admiral would rightly have been executed for treason if he had done anything else.
What a way to start the day! Thanks for the amazing work the Ops Room team does.
What time is it at your place? Asking cos Imma end my day with this vid its 12.40 am here
Brilliant synopsis and graphics as always 👍
Always good to see a new Operations Room upload!!
Sad, tragic.
Imagine Cpt.Hollands memory of being saluted by French sailors as hes leaving the port.. how impactful that memory of his wouldve been. No wonder he asked to be relieved of command.
Absolutely horrible.
i mean if someone told you i wont allow my fleet to fall into the enemies hands just after their whole country has fallen into the enemies hands you wouldnt belive them realistically
The Vichy Government fought against the Allies in Lebanon and Syria later in the war.
@@davidsheffiedeveryone wonders why. Surely the incident in the video and the whole british commitment in the battle of france failed to play a role in this. They do not come to my mind but i'm sure you'll find the racist words that will encapsulate it the best.
My absolute favorite channel! Super entertaining.
You've a great channel mate. Much appreciate the ease of discovering the reality of the past. Cheers.
An important omission from this video is that the ultimatum also gave the French the option to have their ships interred with a neutral power like the United States. It's important because it's something the French admiralty had previously said they'd accept if it came to that, but wasn't communicated to them by their commanders on the scene. I've also always found the French argument a little odd because it relies on them promising to scuttle the ships if the Germans tried to seize the fleet. But, such a seizure would be done by surprise and while they obviously would have every intention of scuttling, they would have no way to realistically promise it. Yes, they ultimately did scuttle mostly successfully when the seizure eventually came, but that could have gone either way. And history is full of examples of ships being seized before scuttling charges could be adequately set or floated and repaired after a rushed in-port scuttling.
Yeah but they were sitting in Algeria, not Toulon
What are you talking about it's not like Germany had even a remotely sound chance of taking the ships. It could not have "gone either way" if you actually read the course of events it would've been a miracle had the Germans gotten onto the ships.
It's next to impossible to stop a ship being scuttled.
@N Fels How dare the brits not predict the future and assume the attempted scuttling or seizure would be successful
@@samarkand1585 Whose to say those ships wouldn't move to Toulon anyway, especially when Torch takes place.
Heck now that I think about it, if Operation Torch happened and the French fleet in Mers is still intact, those ships would end up fighting the Allies anyway and get sunk(like the French fleet in Casablanca). Or move to Toulon, and get scuttled.
@N Fels Your argument is based on hindsight. Unfortunately, the British doesn't have the power to see the future.
Admiral Darland promised in 1940 that if France was defeated, the French fleet would depart for the French Caribbean. That did not happen. Admiral Darland became a fierce supporter of Vichy France.
So the British can't really rely on the French promise that they would scuttle their own warships, not after they break their own word recently.
Drachinifel does an excellent breakdown of this absolutely monumental boondoggle.
This is by far my all time favorite channel
Always excited when I get a notification for a video from this channel
I’m not sure if I missed something, but I hope you’re going to make a part 2 for the battle of Ia Drang Valley. I thought the first video was fascinating, especially just after rewatching We Were Soldiers, and I was very excited to see what happened next. I love the format and quality of your videos, and your narration is fantastic. I have been putting off reading about the rest of the battle beyond what was covered in the first video, so I hope you are still considering making a follow up. Whether you do or not, though, I love your work, and the effort you put in really shows!
The Operations Room uploads, I like pre-emptively.
I didnt know abut this higly interesting part of history! Thank you for another awesome piece of work!
Excellent! I’m a history nerd and had not heard of this “incident”. Well done
The Fleet Without a Friend by John Vader. 1971, paperback 1973: 450 01226 3. New England Library
This is an excellent review of this incident and the role of Darlan and his personal animosity towards the British which caused a breakdown in Trust. No winners from this and huge mistrust that lasted years. Operation Torch saw the French open fire on British and Commonwealth Troops and pointless casualties as a consequence of this action.
The interactions between Captain Holland and Admiral Gensoul is almost like a Monty Python sketch
Fascinating video. I've never heard of this action before.
Very well arranged and narrated, I like your videos. 🙂
This is one of those situations where face-to-face communication between key decision makers could have led to a completely different outcome.
Sending your Admiral into the jaws of a fleet you're threatening to sink is not exactly a big brain move.
@@PerfectSense77 Vichy was neutral, so no reason to capture any Admirals from any country before any hostilities.
It's quite sad, to be honest. The French Navy should have joined the Allied cause.
Or just sideline the ships until after the war. It helps neither side and allows them to remain somewhat neutral.
@@brandondaniels9471 the Kriegsmarine would’ve seized control of the ships.
Imagine how much that would've helped France's reputation post-war. Instead, they look like some sideline-sitters, waiting to align with the winners, even if they were Nazis who just decimated their country.
They should have joined Free France and fought against the Vichy traitors
Sure, but Gensoul had no real or legitimate reasons to do so. In his perspective, there was still a legitimate French government and the French Navy hadn't been involved in any fighting during the battle of France, so it's understandable that being suddenly ordered by the Brits to sink his own ships was totally out of the question. Also, back then a lot of French people, more so among mostly conservative French officers, still saw the UK as historical adversaries, if not enemies. In the end, between the gravity of the situation in western Europe and Gensoul's blind intransigence, it was indeed a disastrous tragedy for everyone involved.
Great video as always
Very interesting video! Nice work!
I didn't know about the suicidal sloop charge. This is incredible.
I wonder how different history would've been had the French Fleet agreed to join the British one. I know it would've never happened. But someone has got to have wondered "What if." Nice video.
Probably the same effect as the rest of the free French navy
@@texastea.2734---Possibly of their destroyers and such could've been useful in convoy duties.
quite helpful to be up 2 fast battle cruisers.
plus an older BB for heavy convoy defense.
And what if France had declared war on Britain after this attack? The whole french fleet would have joined the axis
@@volcanares9620 they wouldn't as seen by the scuttling of the rest of the navy
Anyway viche France was already considered an enemy by the allis so it wouldn't really affect much
Another excellent video, thank you!
Great work. Thanks!
To be fair, it’s understandable from British perspective. The Italians had a pretty strong force, with the possible French navy it could have been a major threat
Agreed with a caveat:
In the event, RaDAR advantage became the Great Equalizer. Allied advances in technology of radio range and direction finding and fire control spelt the end of opposing naval relevance. Seetakt, IJN RaDARs (Type 13, 21, and so on) and Gufo were simply too far behind to compete. Metox (an early RaDAR Warning Receiver) was good until millimetric frequencies came into use.
In my view, with apologies:
Attacking the French anchorage was politically the same as looking for a lost contact lens where the light is better, instead of looking where you lost it. To whit: Churchill and his marshals hadn't a German fleet pinned in a tiny port with almost no AA defenses, so he/they beat living hell out of the one he/they COULD get hands on.
It (the attack) did nothing to assure the French they had a strong, faithful, ally in Great Britain and the UK. In fact, it proved quite the opposite; that the UK was a formidable enemy . . . even to erstwhile friends. Ask India. And China. And South Africa. And the Middle East. And what's that other place-Afghanistan.
From my perspective it's always the same lesson taught.
It's only understandable if you buy that the best option was to double down and expand the war to a global scale with the aim of eventually winning years later at tremendous cost to both the UK and the world. Tens of millions of lives and untold cruelty. Eventually ally with Stalin (who invaded Poland, the defense of which was supposedly the whole reason for declaring war on Germany), eventually giving Uncle Joe half of Europe, oh and also firebombing central Europe and starving its people through blockade. Britain was left wrecked financially and morally and had to give up its empire immediately afterwards. If you agree this was definitely a better option than a white peace then sure it might make sense to kill thousands of Frenchmen while you're at it. At that point you might as well do anything to justify your 'defeat Germany at any price' policy.
It was not. The french capitulation expressed very few conditions but one was that it's navy would remain in Toulon (south of France in free area) and shall never be use by the Axis. It never was and when the free area was eventually invaded by the third Reich, the french government of Vichy indeed gave the order to sunk all ships witch was done before the german take any of them. All that was communicated to the British they just refused to trust the french and preferred to destroy every bit of french navy they could, "just to be sure".
As said elsewhere, those events felt like an incredible backstabbing to the french population.
@@augustindavid8649 Thanks for a well composed response.
but the french fleet was intact at Toulon so...
the french folded like a deck of cards. too much stock in the maginot line
They were out-thought, as were the British, who quickly abandoned them to their fate. With 9 months to prepare the mighty British Army was beaten up by a single weak German Army Group, put its tail between its legs and ran home to mummy. The French were dragged into a war they couldn't win, sold up the river by their shitty "Ally", then attacked by that "Ally" over and over again. They were also attacked by over a million Germans with 1200 tanks with almost complete air superiority and later, by the Italians too but hey, what does that matter... Both France and Britain were beaten by a better led enemy. Only the English Channel saved England, their mighty army sure as hell wouldn't have
Amazing video
Brilliant graphics
Excellent as always.. Kudos.
Powerful. Can hardly imagine the emotions between the navies at Mers El Kebir leading up to firing of the first shot
Yet another example of a powerful navy with its brave sailors be doomed by incompetent leaders, there seem to be plenty of them in WW2. Italy comes to mind.
I guess because of the early surrender of France, the MN is often taken off of the equation too fast and even less people take her in consideration. Thank you for this video and reminder.
MN? (I'm sincerely out of the loop)
@@mustlovedragons8047 MN is short for the Marine Nationale, the French navy, and what remained of it under the control of Vichy. There's also FNFL for Forces Navales Françaises Libres for the navy under control of Free French Forces after France's surrender. Acronyms are common to shorten navies' names
RN for Royal Navy
USN for United States Navy
RM for Regia Marina
KM for KriegsMarine
IJN for Imperial Japanese Navy
And so on.
@@mustlovedragons8047 Marine National, the French Navy
@@_malarkey_8462 THANK YOU!!!
Hum, not agreeing on this one. The French admiralty was actually very competent. But you must realise that if Gensoul had accepted any British conditions, Germany would have invaded the free zone. It’s not a black and white situation. Both points are understandable.
Fantastic work, thank you.
Great job as usual!!
Such a crazy and unnecessary tragedy: very typical French intransigence: they could and should have fought on with the British fleet.
They were in the middle of armistice negotiations. Youd recon it be clear that aside from gensoul performing treason breaking the armistice would have a terrible outcome/penalties for france.
A month, just 30 days before this event. French soldiers were dying near dunkirk to allow the english army to flee France. Keep that in perspective when you think about what was done here.
yes and if you knew anything about that part of the war you would also know that 130.000 french soldiers were evacuated from Dunkirk and fifty thousand British troops were left behind to be captured oh and british soldiers were also being killed in their thousands at Dunkirk when the French evacuated troops were asked if they would fight with the British 90% voted to return to France and captivity to the Germans until the vichy french had them released on a promise to not join the allies its all there if you want to know the real truth
@@josephberrie9550 Thanks, I did not know that detail. I heard also that the French navy officers were the most reluctant to rejoin the allies due to this event. Think I read it in a book a lont time ago, so I can not give the detals.
I love all of your videos, Is there a way I can add Portuguese subtitles to them ? I want to show your videos to my friends but they don't speak English
Probably one of the best video talking of this tragical event. Most of the video out there are quite superficial if not caricatural, and most of them talks only about the English side, so thank you and good job. I was not aware the french made bombardment raid on Gibraltar following this event.
May I add something, as you said it shocked the french and pushed them deeper into the axis orbit, for a lot of them any person or nation joining the British side were judged as traitor. Later on, it didn't helped to convince french officer or civil authority in colonies, to join the free french, like when British try the same kind of thing in other ports like Dakkar or like at Libreville in Gabon where to french sloops fight each other (Savorgnan de Brazza sunked Bougainville) or during Operation Exporter in Syria (a forgotten battle). US will also suffer from that when they will land in north Africa.
An other thing that Churchill might have missed while planing Catapult (or maybe he knew and take it as a risk), was that if any ships survived or could be roughly repaired, the only place where they could do further reparation in Mediteranean sea was at Toulon, a place much closer to Germany and its armys than in any port of North Africa, and that's what happened for the rest of the ships present in Mers el Kebir that day, they all join the safety of Toulon or its shipyard for repairs, and most of them were scuttled when german arrived.
The legend say that they sent a message to tell the british that they kept their words and fulfill their promise to not let the axis take controle of their ships.
As for Alexandria the two officer in charge of British and French fleets were in good in good terms so it helps greatly with deescalate the situation and avoid an other blood bath, the french accepted to demilitarize their ships and still fulfill the secret order of Darlan by keeping french colours and french controle of the ships.
Anyway I love your work!
NB : I must admit that my knowledge come mainly from what I found on internet, so every bit of information could be wrong X)
Sommerville's communication to the French in full:
It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer, we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose, we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty’s Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers-el-Kébir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives:
(a) Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans and Italians.
(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment. If either of these courses is adopted by you, we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation, if they are damaged meanwhile.
(c) Alternatively, if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews, to some French port in the West Indies-Martinique for instance-where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must, with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.
For some reason this video does not mention the option of sending the ships to the United States.
Thanks for posting this . Its always important to get a hold of as many primary sources of information as possible .
.
I think its important to remember before judging Gensoul that he could not know what we know now, that the vichy french government would quickly become an axis puppet. I imagine in his mind and the minds of the french sailors they could not give up their ships because they needed to fight for what was left of their country, currently being invaded by a foreign power, not to mention their duty to follow orders to the letter. Imagine being one of those sailors, your fleet could make a difference and strike back at the enemy taking your homeland and then your allies ask you to give it up or be destroyed.
Tragic situation, even the british officers said they would have done the same.
He could not know the British would sink his fleet after the British stated they came to sink the fleet if the French did not comply to their demands? And the only thing left of France was a Fascist puppet state. Not much to fight for in my opinion..
They were invited to fight on against Germany, and refused to do so.
How have I never heard of this omg I love this channel
This channel is my favourite one on the internet. Yes, the entirety of the internet.
Admiral Gensoult was blind by his anglophobia. I think he is the main responsible here. Like many french high commander and politicians in 1940, he was too short-sighted for his role. He led this fleet to its destruction. Shame on him !
This one is case here is just plain frustrating. Maybe if Gensoul was less of a prick and maybe they could've worked a compromise on this case.
@@alwayscurious3357 He lived up to the French arrogance stereotype well.
Uh
Imagine being admiral of what was at the time called the second strongest fleet in the world and your ALLY asks you to dismantle your ships or they attack.
The choice was justified, fault's on the British hands who only cared about their safety rather than about its allies.
so was De Gaul
@@antera1524 They aren't an ally if taken over by the germans, they had the option to join the british too dont just ignore that... If the fleet fell into german hands it could have prevented france even becoming an independent state again. It was tough love.
With the information they had at the time I honestly can't fault them. It shames me to say I probably would've made the same choice in their place.
OPS room AND Armchair Historian in the same day??! We are blessed.
I love this channel so much and I wish my comment hit highlight. Thank you sir.
A story direct from Churchills memoirs relayed to him from M.Teitgen of the French resistance. There was a village near Toulon where two families lost their sailor sons from British fire at Oran. At the funeral , at the the request of both families, a Union Jack was laid upon the coffins side by side with the Tricolour.
Seems like propaganda. Pure fiction
@@donarthiazi2443 100% this
@Donar Thiazi How you can say 'seems like' and then go straight to an explicit statement tells us all we need to know about your bigotry.
Bravo! 👏 👏 👏
@@sunnyjim1355
"Bigotry"? Buy yourself a dictionary kid. Or learn to not assume... it makes you post ridiculous comments.
If its true, thats pretty damn cucked.
Why did you skip the fifth option? The Brits also offered the possibility of sailing to a neutral port (they suggested the US).
That was a compromise in later negations. Not a fifth option
@@tanner1111 No, it was part of the initial ultimatum. See the last part of option (c) below:
------
It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers el Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives;
(a) Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.
(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment.
If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.
(c) Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.
Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.
------
Given that Darlan's final pre-armistice orders to Gensoul included the option of sailing the ships to the US if an enemy tried to seize his ships, this is a major omission. (Both on the part of Ops Room, and on the part of Gensoul - mentioning that to Darlan in his communications might well have changed many things.)
Enjoyed your video so I gave it a Thumbs Up
Another excellent video.
EVERY leader worth the name would have had to do the same thing. The French admiral could have shown some of the courage of a certain general De Gaulle, and taken the fleet to England to continue the fight to try and liberate his great nation
And the German reprisals would have been horrific while these "brave" men got to bask in glory
@@SashulyaDidn't stop any of the other free navies from countries occupied by Germany from joining the RN.
@@andrewlucia865 You talk like there were no foreigners in the Kriegsmarine and that the RN were somehow special and above the other navies of the world because people were joining it. Foreigners join every navy, it's perfectly normal. Only Britain ever bragged about it. But Britain will literally clutch at any straw, no matter how weak, to justify it's war. "Look, we must be in the right coz look at all these people joining us". Well no, Britain, you're a criminal state which plundered the planet
As for "free", those countries were only occupied (Soviet Union excepted) because Britain were using them as proxies or outright occupying them. And free? Are they not members of the dictatorial EU which Britain abandoned for exactly that reason?
The British were just as ruthless as Hither was in many ways.
Always were, Anglos are Anglos.
"Why are you shelling us, we're on the same side?"
"Sorry force of habit"
You are either with us, or against us, there is no middle ground.
"I therefore have no hesitation in saying that they are better destroyed" - Charles De Gaulle, July 1940
An illegitimate warlord fighting In Africa under British service at the time.
Meanwhile the French had a legitimate government too
@@commisaryarreck3974 legitimate under Nazi occupation you mean. If so then the fleet was a legitimate target as Vichy France were a part of the Axis and killed thousands of allied troops.
@@samscopeproductionz
The Vichy never joined the axis
But indeed they killed thousands of foreign invaders, and were so loyal to the axis that they fought to the death to prevent the axis they were supposedly part of from taking their ships
I won't argue it wasn't under nazi occupation, that's retarded. I will argue the Vichy part of it wasn't. Rather I'd argue it was at gunpoint, constant threat with a thin veil of "independence"
More then the Dutch got, we got collaborators that went on fighting even after the Germans surrendered. For a nation that fled the mainland but never surrendered
Or any other occupied nation for that matter
De Gaulle was nothing more then some illegitimate warlord that refused to accept his legitimate governments surrender.
An arrogant one at that, demanding to be treated like a victorious power rather then an occupied nation
@@commisaryarreck3974 but…. It wasn’t the Axis who were trying to take their ships, it was the British, they fought to the death to prevent the Allies from taking it off the Nazis…
Vichy France killed thousands of Allies in North Africa in Morocco/Algeria. French Police collaborated with the Gestapo to hunt down French Jews and didn’t bat an eyelid at atrocities such as Haute-Vienne.
De Gaulle was not illegitimate, Phillipe Pètain was, a man, who with the backing of the Nazis turned his nation into a quasi-police state who blamed Frances defeat on Communists, Socialists and Jews.
De Gaulle represented the remnants of the legitimate Third French Republic, which is why post war, he was a hero, and Petain got a death sentence.
Exactly - fighting in Lebanon and Syria against the Allies
An impossible position for both sides. One wonders what might have happened had someone other than Gensoul been in command and more willing to communicate.
All of WWII would have been very different had a lot of French high command been different.
It's not impossible. When your commanding officer tells you to risk your forces falling into the hands of fascists, you get out your sidearm and solve the problem.
step by step battles by top down is a very effective format
Thanks for the video.
This is a misrepresentation of the ultimatum the French received.
First: Here are the options, as given by Somervile.
a) ''Sail With us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.''
b) ''Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment.'' NOT at the end of the war
c) ''Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.''
''If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.''
A very important correction. The French admiral was explicitly, given the option to sail his ships to the United States of America.
Second: The French Admiral had been explicitly told, at a previous point in time that he would receive no further orders from the Vichy French government. By disobeying this simple order, he has put the citizens of the nation he swore to protect, in direct danger. As now, any actions taken at Mers El Kabir is no longer the decision of the admiral. But the Vichy French government, which in turn puts the citizens in danger of German reprisals.
Aye, the moment those French ships sailed away to join the Allies, the consequences on the French people, now on very thin ice would have been dire.
i'm french. i wish our fleet had decided to fight alongside britain. our ships could have been of great help to the war effort and it would have avoided so many deaths
I think that it would have happened but Britain gave too little time to consider and because it was ultimatum it is understandable that French Navy acted like it did. Most shamefull day for British navy.
@@Pectopah123 I would disagree with that, it was not a shameful day but it was a very very sad day. Imaging if those ships would have fallen into the hands of the Germans, there was clearly a lot of confusion in France at the time (as there would have been with any other country in that position) as to what they were going to do next.
The British had little choice but to make the decision for them in the end.
Such a terrible day particularly for all those that lost their life’s , much of it was caused by confusion in communication and pride standing in the way of the decision needed.
@@davidbarlee4722 OK. shamefull is a harsh word, but how would you discribe when you're back stabbing your own ally and killing their soldier after they honored one of your officers? Most SHAMEFULL day in British navy. It was cowards choise.
@@Pectopah123 again I would disagree with you, in war you have to make hard decisions. Sadly by this point the French navy was no longer ally but a very realistic threat. War is unfair and harsh ( anyone with a knowledge of the history of war will tell you that). It wasn’t a cowardly attack, they were given warning ,a deadline and options but chose none of them because they received no assistance for the chain of command.
They were left to fend for themselves unsure of what to do. I ask you what would you have done if you had been on either side ?
@@davidbarlee4722 I would have used a better judgement and trust my ally to sunk the ships if German would have taken them. It's weird that Brits seemed trust more Germans who occupied France than The Word of honor a French officer and ally. Why Britain just surrender when Hitler offered it? Your logic is weird. There is no way that French soldiers had given those ships intact to Germany. Toulon 1942.
Amazing. I've never heard of this event until today.
Love these videos