Sisko was never a typical Starfleet officer to begin with. He blackmail Quark in the very first episode. He used Garek to warn Cardasia of the Klingon invasion. He polluted an entire planet to get one man and even was ok with martial law until he found out Admiral Leyton caused the sabatoge. Garek didn't destroy Sisko. He just open the door to the side of Sisko that knew it needed to be done
Sisko might be more common than we give him credit for. We tend to see hero ships with hero captains, but how many Star Fleet Captains have been on screen total? Definitely less than 100 right, I'm guessing less than 50? Among them, Sisko, Ransom, and Maxwell were all brutually effective, and they make up probably 6-10% of the Captains we've seen, and that's before I unilaterally make Axanar canon and dare you to stop me.
@@thomasconnors4338 sisko a great captain and it sad the defient class was not used for borg fighting like sisko intended but it got it golden hour with dominion war. i have no problem with Axanar but only seen trailer looks cool
Romulan Senators disappear all the time it's typical in a society who prizes secrecy and deception, and the criminal was slated for death by Gowron. Nobody was going to miss them.
@@JRGProjects The best part is they established that the criminal totally deserved it too. He wasn't someone who ran afoul of some Klingon rule or scammed them, he's the kind of guy who tries to manhandle a woman in a bar and then stabs the bartender for intervening. The actor also did an outstanding job of being slimey AF, too. The guy only had like 5 scenes in one episode and I remember just about everything about the way he acted and talked. He just OOZED scumbag.
By far my favorite Star Trek episode. Yes, a horrible ethical dilemma. But this episode perfectly lays bare the nastiness of war. You can’t be ethical with high ideals in a war. Well at least you can’t do it and survive. Especially when the enemy has absolutely no problem with violating your ethics or ideals.
"You may have saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, Captain, but I call that a bargain." -Garak
1 senator, and his CREW... The latnum bribe to Quark, the clothes aswell... The holosmith, whatever Sisko paid for the holosmiths release, Biomed gel, the clothes Garak was working on when Sisko snaps... ect. So Yeah... Not so cheap but still worth it...
I agree, he just asked Sisko a simple question. Does Sisko want to save himself, his family, SF and perhaps Everyone enough that he'll do whatever must be done. And see it through to the end to turn things around when the opposite choice is slavery and or death for all of 2 Quadrants of space.. Then Sisko was left to make a choice. The likes of Spock, Tuvoc, Janeway... an perhaps under such desperation even Picard woulda logically concluded what went down in the episode was for the best. ESPECIALLY since the bad was overshadowed by good in the end and it all worked out.. an he NEVER needed do such a thing ever again
Thereby proving Quark right as well. Hoomans are all nice and cuddly....when they're happy and their bellies are full. Push 'em a bit...and they start taking trophies.
Absolutely agree. Even Quark mentions how humans are actually quite brutal behind the federation veneer in their time travel episode I think. His observation is quite apt. Having humans change that much for the better in only a few 100 years is improbable. Take away our creature comforts and we're still the same brutal race, a fact that Sisko embodies perfectly
@@ladythalia227 "A savage, child race" if I remember the quote accurately, neh? But we still have potential. Too bad we're not seeing much of that IRL, at least at the moment.
"Humans say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Why? Do they think there's a shortage of bad ones?" --Karm'Luk P'an Ku, The Joy of Lucidity CY 8633
Honestly, I think that in the long run Garak saved the Romulans. If the Dominion had defeated the Klingons and the Federation then it would only have been a matter of time before they invaded the Star Empire. It was only by joining the Alliance that the Romulans avoided being conquered. Besides which, given the cruelty and tyranny that the Dominion planned to unleash on the Alpha and Beta Quadrants the death of one senator hardly seems like a loss at all. Overall, Garak should be celebrated as the hero who saved the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
Yeah, that bit of the Romulans siding with the Dominion like in the earlier part of the episode never made sense to me either. Sure it makes sense for them to stay out of the early stages to let all sides wear themselves down, but surely they must want either a stalemate or a total Dominion defeat.
You're right of course. The Founders have an unrelenting drive to subjugate every solid they meet because "what you can control can't hurt you" said that female changling commanding the Alpha Quadrant Dominion forces.
@ 0utc4st1985 I believe it to be Romulan arrogance. Most likely they believe they can just hammer out an agreement with the founders like they did with the federation. A bit irrational and illogical but not that much of an inconsistency of how Romulus is portrayed. Waiting in the shadows for the right moment to strike. It is true that Romulus would have to do something against the founders sooner or later, however, they didn't have to do anything right then at that moment. Romulans getting involved asap is in the interest of the federation and Sisko, not necessarily a necessity for the Romulans to survive. Maybe they planned to secretely arm themselves, wait the war of atrition between the federation/klingon alliance and the dominion out, to then conquer the whole quadrant for themselves.
Caleb Garrett yeah, and how does that make it “bad head canon” all that means is they reached the limit of thier patience. They also attacked the station directly, and captured it; while Odo was on board, and I’m pretty sure some Jem’hadar tried to kill him there too. Then one or 2 scenes later starfleet retreats and the dominion have taken the station.
@@juliankirby9880 i dont know about that since the founders tried to get the star to supernova before war ever happened, it marked the start of the kilmar accords and the klingon alliance. Before that the federation didnt attack the dominion just defended and the seige warfare was costing the federation the war.
Sisko was never your typical Starfleet captain. He had a dark side to his personality and was willing to break the rules. But as the saying goes....rules are meant to be broken
True. All that said, Sisko would rather not be dark. He'd rather being chilling on Bajor with Cassidy Yates. Reality just wouldn't let him be the kicked back type of guy he wanted to be.
In the pale moonlight has to be one of my favorite episodes of DS9. It is my personal belief that Garek intentionally used Sisko to lure Senator Vreenak to DS9 to plant evidence of a Dominion plot to invade Romulus on his shuttle and plant a bomb on Vreenak's shuttle. As stated by Garek the data rod would never stand up to scrutiny, however when damaged who would be able to tell if it was damaged by the explosion of Vreenak's schuttle. Garek Probably had the entire operation planned out before he allegedly contacted his remaining operatives on Cardassia. Andrew Robinson's character in the series is incredibly well written which leaves you with either a wish to know more or a dark desire to know how he thinks.
Garak tells Sisko that everyone he contacted was killed within 26 hours, and then literally the next sentence tells Sisko to lie to Vreenak about how they came into possession of the data, "tell him ten good men died bringing it across the lines." He's so masterful that he can tell you his methods and then use them on you without you realizing it. Garak had this planned for awhile and was waiting for a good time to put it into motion. That's why his first interaction after being recruited was to kibosh Sisko's plan and suggest a new one.
Its kind of surpising that section 31 hasn't tried to recurit him, think about it, he already got everything required to be a spy, he also an outcast among his own people, he a bit of a puppet master, if anything, he the most dangerous man on DS9, despite appearances.
Garak never bothered with his "contacts" left on Cardassia. He knew exactly what he was going to do and what he was going to make Sisko a party to. You'll note also that the biomemetic gel that Sisko gets for him that Bashir noted it could make organic explosives. That may well have been the "bomb" that destroyed Vrenaks shuttle. My guess is elements of the Talshiar worked out what Starfleet had done but were the very same elements that wanted Vrenak out of the way and to get into the war because they understood just what a threat the Dominion were. My guess is the Romulan senate and the government always planned to join the war but were planning to come in at the 11th hour under terms which would force significant concessions from the Federation and Klingons and leave Romulus the dominant power after the war was over. The assassination forced their hand and its not exactly like they could cry uncle because they still needed to join the war to avoid encirclement.
Garak was always good at spinning a yarn. He never merely sowed a suit, he wove a rich and delectably deep tapestry. He is what the Alpha quadrant (and maybe the Beta) needed, someone to finally pull the thread.
He is INDEED what the Alpha AND Beta Quadrants needed. Imagine the humongous mistake it would've been if the Romulans actually went from a non-agression treaty to a full blown alliance with the Dominion? How horribly that would backfire on them? Worse part of it all, Romulans are so assuredly arrogant and so short-sighted in their ambitions, they'd probably believe they can just scheme and manipulate the Founders when the war was over. *They had clearly grown delusional after years of dealing with the Federation.* In more ways than one, Garak saved their precious Romulan Star Empire. For even though no plans to invade Romulus had been made YET, who's to say they wouldn't be made in the future? *The Tal Shiar participated on the bombing of the Founders' homeworld. And the Dominion would never forget that.*
That Robinson started out playing the most whiny assassin in film history only to end up playing the coolest assassin in TV history is a weird career arc.
@@sid2112 Shame Clint Eastwood never made a guest appearance on Star Trek, at least as far as I am personally aware. Would've been cool to see the two of them interact on screen together again.
Also the federations inability to conduct war makes the promotion of Martok to supream commander of the 7th fleet a lot more understandable because who would you want leading the fleet into war an inept federation admiral whose never even seen a phaser or a Klingon warrior whose proven to understand battle and the enemy time and time again.
Well there is a problem in each sides. Federation is more diplomatic but inexperience. Klingons are too gungho Romulans do not want to share information, and show they have certain weaknesses. The war was poorly conducted. They had separate fleets, rather than using their advantage to negate the disadvantage of their colleagues. If it was conducted properly, Klingons bird of prey should protect Romulan war birds. ROmulan war birds should be cloaked to protect Federation ships from the Breen. Heck they should draw out the Breen so ROmulans can get in position to destroy them.
The background information of this episode highlights why demilitarization is stupid. You can't demilitarize when you are surrounded by military powers unless you want to be conquered then go for it.
My favorite part of this - in the episode, Garak tells Sisko to ham it up that there were a lot of good Starfleet men who lost their lives to give him this information, to lend legitimacy to the fact it's important. Then Garak does the exact same thing to Sisko, telling him that all of his contacts are dead...and Sisko doesn't pick up on it.
If you're going to get in the mud with the Dominion, you can't complain that you might get dirty. In war, there are no rules except for one, may the best man win.
They are restricted by a few things, including range and inability to read certain species. Since both the Jem'hadar and the Vorta are engineered species I wouldn't be surprised if being telepath proof was a priority, at least for the Vorta since they lead while the Jem'Hadar mostly just take orders.
Plus as a species they are rather soft and too kind for their own good. They never use their ability to gain much of an advantage and don't try to hurt anyone with it. Just imagine the Mirror Universe of a species with their latent ability. I think the TNG book went into that concept a bit with Troi.
My favorite episode of this series. Now that I think about it, it does does answer a lot of questions about Garak's motives. He DID play Sisko, but it was a " you scratch, my back I'll scratch yours" situation. It could be argued that Garak did this to help liberate his homeland.
The analysis by Bashir and all the other augments had the fundamental flaw of not accounting for the influence of 1 individual, which Bashir himself proved was quite a fatal flaw in the calculations.
DS9 was my least favorite. It was the least Star Trek of the old star Trek. But in this , this one of the greatest of all star trek episode. Star Trek is about thinking. Something the new Star trek lacks. They are after Wow. They new star trek did an episode that used the work of the classic TOS. The introduction of the Romulans. YOunger fans would get interested to seeing why TOS was so good. Of all the Star Trek aliens, I like the Romulans better. As a villain, they are more complex. No matter how much culture they add, they are just about war. Romulans are more human like.
Thanks I actually missed that coaching Sisko to say they lost good men, that he said he lost all his good men. This is actually great witting by DS9 we know Garrak lies all the time but we too were so wrapped up with Siskos emotions that we let him manipulate us.
To quote Colonel Troutmam "The statue was always there, he just chipped away the rough edges. " Cisco came "full circle" that episode and made peace with what it took to fight a war to win it. Did Garek play him? Sure. Or maybe he just chipped away the rough edges.
Garak is SO GOOD as a character... Lying to Worf for practice... assassination... deception... and that Bromance with Bashir... And ARGUABLY a savior of the alpha (and less remembered beta) quadrants
Just because it's horrible nonsense, doesn't mean it's not a word. Have you met the English language? 😬 Here let me unpeel that banana for you. Oh wait you already peeled it? 😂 Man I love hate this language.
Rewatched this episode with my kid recently, who is a PG student in history. Her field? WW2 Crimes against Humanity. It's a sad day when a kid reminds you that 'moral codes kept in times of moral crisis die. The Humanity those codes are meant to protect, live on to find a better way'. Garek gave Sisko that opportunity. He knew the war was a mess that could not be won, and he set up a way for victory. Everyone who fights loses something. Sisko would have found a way to achieve his goal, but if he'd done it his way, he wouldn't have lived through it, he wouldn't have found a better way. And they needed him to protect everyone from the Pa'Raiths a year later. That was a mission only Sisko could fulfill. It was war, by its very name 'war' something is going badly, generally on all sides. Sisko knew he needed Garek for the exact purpose of finding a solution..
Garak made me super happy when I was running an antique shop in a down-town overrun with tweakers and junkies. I just pretended all the addicts that came in to steal were aliens I was supposed to spy on. But when the tourists and old ladies came around, the sad part is, I was a very good antique shop manager.
It's that old story, monsters are needed to destroy monsters. This is what makes DS9 unique, the cast was not composed of the "perfect" officers we usually see in the fleet's glorious flagships, they were what Starfleet needed in dark times.
Garek is my favorite character in DS9. I think Garek played Sisko hard, and what happened was only very slightly not his main plan. I'm not sure about killing the Senator. That move was always part of the backup plan but the fallout could have easily have been the Romulans joining the Dominion. In the chance that the halo programmer did his job well enough then I don't think the shuttle would have been destroyed.
IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT, the best Star Trek episode of all time. Shakespeare would have loved it, and justifiably. Every speech, heartfelt, every act...darker than the last. It was what good theater is all about, and shown to us on..TV? I can only praise that episode, not a single negative word applies.
Morality, to a degree, is situational. You need men like Sisko who are principled in peace but willing to compromise to win existential battles. The true measure of his morality would not be his actions during war, though war does not justify all crimes, but instead how well they return to upholding the principles that make peace great.
Merry Christmas, Lore Masters. I'm so glad that Pale Moonlight is getting serious attention. All these years later and it's still my favorite ST episode of any series.
It was time for the Federation to take the gloves off. To quote the outlaw Josey Wales. Josey Wales : Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up, then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.
A can of diced carrots will always make a dish taste bad regardless of what you call it. It is what it is. When you purchase that can, its taste will be bad, either by itself, or in a recipe. Sisko made the decision to go to the grocery store and he chose to buy those canned carrots.
7:30 So basically Star Fleet had devolved into a bunch of bookworms and geeks and behaving like a bunch of ostriches burying their heads in the sand, to the constant and very real dangers of exploring and defending their territories. Their much-beloved philosophy of Exploration of Space while having just a bare minimum of weapons and proper defense shields, shows just how little they value their own lives and the lives of their crews and officers compared to their utopian Prime Directive of Non-Interference. The entire fleet of ships should have been revamped long ago to all have state-of-the-art defensive shields and weapons plus a strong contingent of military personnel to have any military threats they may encounter. By definition, space is a very large and lonely place, which makes it an ideal place for pirates and military adversaries to prey on you and your colonies. So it makes zero sense for Star Felt ships to be so pacifists and unarmed as most of them were.
Just imagine how super awesome DS9 could have been if in the end of Season 1 cliff hanger we could have got clean shaved head Sisko with USS Defiant. Already fighting a Dominion war😊
2:20 The statistical calculations of the Think Tank of the genetically altered humans did NOT consider adding new elements like the Romulans to the war (or other untapped potential allies). They also did not consider using unconventional means of warfare, like collapsing the worm hole or a replicant virus on the founders or things like "fireships" made with Romulan ship engines (which literally contained a singularity/black hole inside of them).
well.. on the moral implications on bringing in the romulans: it is made pretty clear by their other actions. that the romulans would simply have been next. once the federation and klingons were fallen, the dominion would invade romulan space. so in a sense. sisko is merely speeding up that conflict to open up a second front. brutal, perhaps. but, more people would have died had that happened. And... I think.. that he might've not had any contacts, but he would certainly have had people he'd wanted dead on cardassia.
07:03 - It's not that the Dominion couldn't destroy DS9, it's that Odo was there so they couldn't take it by destroying it. It had to be taken without harming him.
To be fair, it is quite understandable why Sisko wanted to pull in the Romunlans. Sisko understood the character of the Dominion. Though he did not knew, he probably (and perhaps instinctually) suspected that the Dominion would go as far as to exterminate entire planets to preserve their rule. It may would've not happened in that particular war in case of a truce, but would've happened in the next one, which most likely would've happen. That obviously would've resulted in greater losses on the long term. Because despite their highly advanced technology and sciences, the Dominion, were a barbaric in their nature, who seen preservation through utter dominance, and as such, had to forced fed them with the humble pie of true defeat.
My 2 fav characters are garak and Eddington. Why? Because both were successful in fundamentally changing the way sisco behaved. Sisco went from being the prophet to being just another flawed man who needed to bend the strick federation rules to suit him.
but sisko didn't really embrace being the emissary (prophets are the wormhole aliens) until much later in the series. and even then, he only did so after getting to know bajor and its people. and sisko was always flawed. the first arc of the show showed that, first when he was pissed at picard for the death of his wife and then by the prophets showing him that he had been living in the past after his wife died.
@@maxacorn sisko was half prophet. His mother was inhabited by one at his conception. Emissary to the bejorans but a prophet nonetheless. I meant his starfleet ideals were changed after he recovered from his grief after worf 359. I agree with most of what you said.
It seemed to me that Sisko "wanted" Garak to manipulate him in the Pale Moon Light, that way he would make Garak feel more invested in the mission. Garak likes to think of himself as being the smartest person in the room, but that only becomes true if the people in the room humor him. None of the Starfleet crew on DS9 are fooled by Garak's "tailor" act, we see this demonstrated time and again throughout the series. However, Sisko really needs Garak to be invested in this high stakes mission because he is aware of Garak's true nature. Before ending his monologue at the end, Sisko fully accepts the consequences of HIS actions, not Garak's.
Random, but is the Cardassian logo in the program backwards? Every image i see of it has the hole and dash of yellow on the other side. Maybe that's what tipped off Vrenak?
What I didn't understand was why Garak cooperated. He asked for nothing, from what I can tell gained nothing but a couple of punches to the face, and ended up with a destroyed home planet. When Sisko came to him, his planet was winning the war with the Federation, as a vassal state of a more powerful empire, but on the winning side. Why would he cooperate with Sisko?
Lore brother war is not broken down by math. If conflict really was determinate as such half of victories would not have been victories in real life. Germania resistance to Rome, American War of Independence, British Resistance to Nazi Germany in WW2, Japans Victory over Russi in the Russo Japanese war these were all unforeseen victories on the outset of each of these conflicts.
Most of war can be calculated. That is well proven by the fact that Japan’s superior warrior ethic could not stand up to American industry. Even the occasional Sgt York or Dan Daily can be mathed in if you accurately account for subtler factors and can find a way to get extra men and artillery in situations where one of them might make a difference.
@@thomasconnors4338 yes in a protracted conflict yes but in the cases of nested war which these days war can easily evolve into such an invading force can find it hard to find measurable victory because your fighting for someone's home. Trust me dude I'm in the Military war is my life understanding what War is has been my job for all of my adult life. The more I understand the more i find i know little about war.
@@808INFantry11X You're in a modern military. Any of us could pacify the entire middle east faster than Genghis Kahn. Iraq is a quadmire? Block the Tigris and Euphrates in Kurdistan, kill every man woman and child in Baghdad, then take Turkish and Iranian Kurdistan for our collaborators and give them their enemy's gold.
Well, the Ninth Fleet was at DS9 if you forgotten. That is at the minimum 300 ships not to mention the Klingon ships. Betazed was out of position so they got in and dug in. You should question why Betazed or any federation planet had such shitty planetary defense.
You are correct that Garak did not contact any of his insiders. He had planned from the start to fake the data. This is stereotypical of obsidian order the path of least resistance too get the desired result.
I do have to make a correction. minor one, and if you go back and rewatch the episode you will agree wholeheartedly. Bashir DID NOT want to surrender. he merely saw it as the only viable option for survival of Federation member worlds at that point. the total unconditional surrender and dissolution of the United Federation of Planets to save billions. he pressed it so hard cause he thought it was the only way at that moment, not out of desire to bow.
When I say he wanted to surrender, I didn't mean he was happy about it, perhaps a better way to say it is he wanted to save lives, and thought surrendering was the best way.
@@LoreReloaded that is the perfect way to put it. because while Julian still has bouts of idealism throughout the series (from my perspective) he is still one to give way to a more pragmatic view and that, while I believe a desperate option was at the time, still the most pragmatic path. that said the bouts of idealism come, I think, from the fact that he was a young, fresh faced officer when he was stationed at DS9, and there tends to be a certain subtle (and sometimes not so subtle where Garak was involved) naivety that was ever present earlier on, that slowly waned over the series, but never gave way completely. which I also think is why he was so readily able to jump on board with the war, even after he crunched the numbers with the other augments. because once the brass made its choice, it was cemented there would be no surrender. win, lose, or draw the UFP would follow the principles of honor, duty, courage and discipline and defend life, freedom, and the rights of all sentient beings. the still naive side of Julian was able to jump on board with it. take their tiny margin of era in mind and remember a small chance is still a chance and desperate wars like that had been won throughout every known world's known history. so even having crunched the numbers, he set aside the logic of the numbers and gave himself to the more morally righteous path. after all, it is better to die on your feet free, than to live in your knees as a slave.
Tricking the Romulans onto the Federation's side WAS realpolitik / pragmatism rather than anything virtuous, but from our mostly omniscient perspective we know from the Female Changeling's 'You're dead!' speech to Garak and the Blight that the Dominion would have destroyed the Star Empire when they were able to just as they would have turned on the Cardassians. Basically all evidence on the Dominion points to if you cross them your whole civilization is branded a threat and then either destroyed (as they were planning to do with the Federation, Cardassians and probably Romulans), made an example of as the Teplans were or bio engineered into nothing more than living tools of the Founders as the Vorta and Jem Hadar were (the likely fate of the Klingons). Put another way, Borg assimilation is arguably a kinder fate than a Dominion victory over you.
What if Garrick worked for section 31? Then most of his actions would be completely explainable. If not an employee of section 31, then a operative working for section 31 without his complete knowledge.
He has no interest in the Federation. His heart is Cardassian and will do what is needed to keep Cardassia alive. At that point, he knew there was no chance Cardassia would ever be free of the Dominion without the Federation alliance surviving and winning this war. Therefore, he had to do what was needed to get the Romulans to join in since the Federation and Klingon successes were dismal without them.
He destroyed who Sisko was!!! Sisko is not a child. He made his own logical decisions based on the information available. He made them with no regrets.
I think that Sisko was a Section 31 operative. Sisko violated many Federation rules and should have been demoted. I believe O'Brien was a Section 31 operative as well. There were many instances that he just happened to be in the right spot and/or had the right answer.
From the moment that Basir was known to want the Federation to surrender, then Section 31 should have taken him out - end of story! You can't afford to have seditious officers among your senior ranks.
Could Garak also be a Section 31 operative? After all Section 31 has Kuval, Romulan in the Tal Shiar. Sisko is a Section 31 operative as well. Oh, O'Brian too since Section 31 knew so much about Bashir.
Bringing the Romulans into war reduces the amount of death by increasing the amount of opposing forces towards the dominion lest starfleet and klingions die because of Romulus joining the war which forces the dominion to divide there forces up even more
Your right Nitpicking Nerd. And for me at least, In The Pale Moonlight is my least favorite, and by far most depressing, episode of ANY Star Trek series. Star Trek advocating for and celebrating the exact amorality it was made partially as a reaction against really burned.
It was probably garek that planted the idea of the romulans entering the war in the doctor's head in the first place. He also likely had contacts in the star empire, letting gerak know they were ready and willing to enter the war. All they needed was an excuse.
Garak is the hero of the Alpha Quadrant in my opinion. Sisko lost his moral centre when he screwed over the Maquis using WMDs against them... So for him to be such a stickler for those UFP weakness, just made little to no sense to me.
I don't think so. Before now Sisko poisoned an entire planet for one man and has been nothing but ruthless to the Marquis. Sisko even gave Picard the cold shoulder in the first episode. Threaten Quark on more then one occasion. If anything having second thoughts about Garak's plan knowing full well who is and who he worked for strikes me as odd giving what we have seen Sisko did not have an "Archer Breakdown" where he cloned beings to harvest them, raided an innocent vessel, almost suffocated a helpless prisoner and had issues even after getting back to Earth. Sisko isn't phased. The Borg took his wife and he still keeps going.
It's *regardless* not *irregardless* as that's a double negative. It's like you're not supposed to say *I could care less* and instead say *I couldn't care less.*
Sisko was never a typical Starfleet officer to begin with. He blackmail Quark in the very first episode. He used Garek to warn Cardasia of the Klingon invasion. He polluted an entire planet to get one man and even was ok with martial law until he found out Admiral Leyton caused the sabatoge. Garek didn't destroy Sisko. He just open the door to the side of Sisko that knew it needed to be done
to be fair Michael Eddington
BETRAYED THE UNIFORM
I know. Trust me I'm not against Sisko. In fact he's my favorite captain.
Sisko might be more common than we give him credit for. We tend to see hero ships with hero captains, but how many Star Fleet Captains have been on screen total? Definitely less than 100 right, I'm guessing less than 50? Among them, Sisko, Ransom, and Maxwell were all brutually effective, and they make up probably 6-10% of the Captains we've seen, and that's before I unilaterally make Axanar canon and dare you to stop me.
@@thomasconnors4338 sisko a great captain and it sad the defient class was not used for borg fighting like sisko intended but it got it golden hour with dominion war.
i have no problem with Axanar but only seen trailer looks cool
FYI it’s Garak
Garak's plan was correct and worked. That is what should be stressed. It achieved the military ends with a minimal loss of life.
Romulan Senators disappear all the time it's typical in a society who prizes secrecy and deception, and the criminal was slated for death by Gowron. Nobody was going to miss them.
@@JRGProjects The best part is they established that the criminal totally deserved it too. He wasn't someone who ran afoul of some Klingon rule or scammed them, he's the kind of guy who tries to manhandle a woman in a bar and then stabs the bartender for intervening. The actor also did an outstanding job of being slimey AF, too. The guy only had like 5 scenes in one episode and I remember just about everything about the way he acted and talked. He just OOZED scumbag.
JRGProjects ironic since he’s the same actor who played Gowron.
Very true federation ideals were wildly out of sync with the galaxy they were in. Sisko needed the dose of reality.
By far my favorite Star Trek episode. Yes, a horrible ethical dilemma. But this episode perfectly lays bare the nastiness of war. You can’t be ethical with high ideals in a war. Well at least you can’t do it and survive. Especially when the enemy has absolutely no problem with violating your ethics or ideals.
"You may have saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, Captain, but I call that a bargain." -Garak
1 senator, and his CREW... The latnum bribe to Quark, the clothes aswell... The holosmith, whatever Sisko paid for the holosmiths release, Biomed gel, the clothes Garak was working on when Sisko snaps... ect.
So Yeah... Not so cheap but still worth it...
@@MLBeaton compared to the entire alpha quadrant? A steal
@@striker8961 quark was right, everyone has a price. What he couldn't fathom is how good of a businessman sisko was to get the best deal of it ...
@@Andrew12217 never spend more for an acquisition than you have to
There were more Romulans on board Vreenak’s shuttle when it was destroyed. At least two more. But still a bargain!
Garak didn't "destroy" Sisko, he merely broke the shell hiding the real Sisko.
I agree, he just asked Sisko a simple question. Does Sisko want to save himself, his family, SF and perhaps Everyone enough that he'll do whatever must be done. And see it through to the end to turn things around when the opposite choice is slavery and or death for all of 2 Quadrants of space.. Then Sisko was left to make a choice. The likes of Spock, Tuvoc, Janeway... an perhaps under such desperation even Picard woulda logically concluded what went down in the episode was for the best. ESPECIALLY since the bad was overshadowed by good in the end and it all worked out.. an he NEVER needed do such a thing ever again
Thereby proving Quark right as well. Hoomans are all nice and cuddly....when they're happy and their bellies are full. Push 'em a bit...and they start taking trophies.
Absolutely agree. Even Quark mentions how humans are actually quite brutal behind the federation veneer in their time travel episode I think. His observation is quite apt. Having humans change that much for the better in only a few 100 years is improbable. Take away our creature comforts and we're still the same brutal race, a fact that Sisko embodies perfectly
@@ladythalia227 "A savage, child race" if I remember the quote accurately, neh? But we still have potential. Too bad we're not seeing much of that IRL, at least at the moment.
Batman once said “Everyone wears a mask. The trick is to not lose the real you.”
When Garak's father, died, Garak consoled him saying that all of his enemies were dead and he mentioned the Romulan senator by name.
"Humans say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Why? Do they think there's a shortage of bad ones?"
--Karm'Luk P'an Ku,
The Joy of Lucidity
CY 8633
TheRanblingjohnny, One of the best openings from that series.
Aldo a hill of a good point.
Honestly, I think that in the long run Garak saved the Romulans. If the Dominion had defeated the Klingons and the Federation then it would only have been a matter of time before they invaded the Star Empire. It was only by joining the Alliance that the Romulans avoided being conquered.
Besides which, given the cruelty and tyranny that the Dominion planned to unleash on the Alpha and Beta Quadrants the death of one senator hardly seems like a loss at all.
Overall, Garak should be celebrated as the hero who saved the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
Yeah, that bit of the Romulans siding with the Dominion like in the earlier part of the episode never made sense to me either. Sure it makes sense for them to stay out of the early stages to let all sides wear themselves down, but surely they must want either a stalemate or a total Dominion defeat.
You're right of course. The Founders have an unrelenting drive to subjugate every solid they meet because "what you can control can't hurt you" said that female changling commanding the Alpha Quadrant Dominion forces.
@ 0utc4st1985 I believe it to be Romulan arrogance. Most likely they believe they can just hammer out an agreement with the founders like they did with the federation. A bit irrational and illogical but not that much of an inconsistency of how Romulus is portrayed. Waiting in the shadows for the right moment to strike. It is true that Romulus would have to do something against the founders sooner or later, however, they didn't have to do anything right then at that moment. Romulans getting involved asap is in the interest of the federation and Sisko, not necessarily a necessity for the Romulans to survive. Maybe they planned to secretely arm themselves, wait the war of atrition between the federation/klingon alliance and the dominion out, to then conquer the whole quadrant for themselves.
Heroes often have to be Blackmailed into action. Those who Blackmail them? Also Heroes. Just SILENT ones.
The truth is both the Cardi's and Romulans. Were slated for extermination by the founders. The second they set out to bomb the Omarion nebula.
The only reason deep space 9 was ignored for so long is the founders didn’t want to upset Odo too much. It is after all his home.
And I bet most Jem'adar knew Odo was there, and would be very reluctant to fire at it and risking his life.
You forget the founders tried to wipe out the whole system when they had bashir abducted. So i doubt its good head cannon
Caleb Garrett yeah, and how does that make it “bad head canon” all that means is they reached the limit of thier patience. They also attacked the station directly, and captured it; while Odo was on board, and I’m pretty sure some Jem’hadar tried to kill him there too. Then one or 2 scenes later starfleet retreats and the dominion have taken the station.
@@juliankirby9880 i dont know about that since the founders tried to get the star to supernova before war ever happened, it marked the start of the kilmar accords and the klingon alliance. Before that the federation didnt attack the dominion just defended and the seige warfare was costing the federation the war.
@@juliankirby9880 and i cant think of any episode that the jim hadar tried to kill odo
Vreenak: To be honest, my opinion of Starfleet Officers is so low, you'd have to work very hard to disappoint me.
Sisko: Hold my Romulan Ale...
Sisko was never your typical Starfleet captain. He had a dark side to his personality and was willing to break the rules. But as the saying goes....rules are meant to be broken
True. All that said, Sisko would rather not be dark. He'd rather being chilling on Bajor with Cassidy Yates. Reality just wouldn't let him be the kicked back type of guy he wanted to be.
Yup, like when he was going after Edington.
Picard killed his wife and Sisko had the bad side?
In the pale moonlight has to be one of my favorite episodes of DS9. It is my personal belief that Garek intentionally used Sisko to lure Senator Vreenak to DS9 to plant evidence of a Dominion plot to invade Romulus on his shuttle and plant a bomb on Vreenak's shuttle. As stated by Garek the data rod would never stand up to scrutiny, however when damaged who would be able to tell if it was damaged by the explosion of Vreenak's schuttle. Garek Probably had the entire operation planned out before he allegedly contacted his remaining operatives on Cardassia. Andrew Robinson's character in the series is incredibly well written which leaves you with either a wish to know more or a dark desire to know how he thinks.
Garak tells Sisko that everyone he contacted was killed within 26 hours, and then literally the next sentence tells Sisko to lie to Vreenak about how they came into possession of the data, "tell him ten good men died bringing it across the lines." He's so masterful that he can tell you his methods and then use them on you without you realizing it. Garak had this planned for awhile and was waiting for a good time to put it into motion. That's why his first interaction after being recruited was to kibosh Sisko's plan and suggest a new one.
Garak was a great intelligence officer. He was a master manipulator. He led Sisko, an intelligent and moral man, to do what he knew needed done.
Its kind of surpising that section 31 hasn't tried to recurit him, think about it, he already got everything required to be a spy, he also an outcast among his own people, he a bit of a puppet master, if anything, he the most dangerous man on DS9, despite appearances.
@@superomegaprimemk2 he was still the protege of enabran tain
This was the best episode of Trek. Ever.
Garak never bothered with his "contacts" left on Cardassia. He knew exactly what he was going to do and what he was going to make Sisko a party to. You'll note also that the biomemetic gel that Sisko gets for him that Bashir noted it could make organic explosives. That may well have been the "bomb" that destroyed Vrenaks shuttle.
My guess is elements of the Talshiar worked out what Starfleet had done but were the very same elements that wanted Vrenak out of the way and to get into the war because they understood just what a threat the Dominion were. My guess is the Romulan senate and the government always planned to join the war but were planning to come in at the 11th hour under terms which would force significant concessions from the Federation and Klingons and leave Romulus the dominant power after the war was over. The assassination forced their hand and its not exactly like they could cry uncle because they still needed to join the war to avoid encirclement.
Garak was always good at spinning a yarn. He never merely sowed a suit, he wove a rich and delectably deep tapestry. He is what the Alpha quadrant (and maybe the Beta) needed, someone to finally pull the thread.
He is INDEED what the Alpha AND Beta Quadrants needed.
Imagine the humongous mistake it would've been if the Romulans actually went from a non-agression treaty to a full blown alliance with the Dominion? How horribly that would backfire on them?
Worse part of it all, Romulans are so assuredly arrogant and so short-sighted in their ambitions, they'd probably believe they can just scheme and manipulate the Founders when the war was over. *They had clearly grown delusional after years of dealing with the Federation.*
In more ways than one, Garak saved their precious Romulan Star Empire. For even though no plans to invade Romulus had been made YET, who's to say they wouldn't be made in the future? *The Tal Shiar participated on the bombing of the Founders' homeworld. And the Dominion would never forget that.*
The romulans and Dominion had a non-aggression treaty, not an alliance.
That Robinson started out playing the most whiny assassin in film history only to end up playing the coolest assassin in TV history is a weird career arc.
Especially since I think he played Liberace in a made-for-TV biopic too
Ah Dirty Harry, that was one awesome movie.
@@sid2112 Shame Clint Eastwood never made a guest appearance on Star Trek, at least as far as I am personally aware. Would've been cool to see the two of them interact on screen together again.
It's funny that Sisko, especially later on, would totally be the sort of starfleet officer who's the bad guy in a TNG episode.
I can't believe I did not know about this channel sooner, keep up the terrific work!
Also the federations inability to conduct war makes the promotion of Martok to supream commander of the 7th fleet a lot more understandable because who would you want leading the fleet into war an inept federation admiral whose never even seen a phaser or a Klingon warrior whose proven to understand battle and the enemy time and time again.
Well there is a problem in each sides. Federation is more diplomatic but inexperience.
Klingons are too gungho
Romulans do not want to share information, and show they have certain weaknesses.
The war was poorly conducted.
They had separate fleets, rather than using their advantage to negate the disadvantage of their colleagues.
If it was conducted properly, Klingons bird of prey should protect Romulan war birds. ROmulan war birds should be cloaked to protect Federation ships from the Breen. Heck they should draw out the Breen so ROmulans can get in position to destroy them.
The background information of this episode highlights why demilitarization is stupid. You can't demilitarize when you are surrounded by military powers unless you want to be conquered then go for it.
Like what happened to the Terran empire
@@thomasalvarez6456 Kinda.
My favorite part of this - in the episode, Garak tells Sisko to ham it up that there were a lot of good Starfleet men who lost their lives to give him this information, to lend legitimacy to the fact it's important.
Then Garak does the exact same thing to Sisko, telling him that all of his contacts are dead...and Sisko doesn't pick up on it.
If you're going to get in the mud with the Dominion, you can't complain that you might get dirty. In war, there are no rules except for one, may the best man win.
You'd think the Betazoids would have the advantage of knowing their enemy's next move.
They are restricted by a few things, including range and inability to read certain species. Since both the Jem'hadar and the Vorta are engineered species I wouldn't be surprised if being telepath proof was a priority, at least for the Vorta since they lead while the Jem'Hadar mostly just take orders.
Plus as a species they are rather soft and too kind for their own good. They never use their ability to gain much of an advantage and don't try to hurt anyone with it. Just imagine the Mirror Universe of a species with their latent ability. I think the TNG book went into that concept a bit with Troi.
Every Betazoid on the planet: "Captain, I'm sensing... Boss music???"
they sense feelings, not the future.
@@jenshep1720 Telepathic, not clairvoyant in other words.
My favorite episode of this series. Now that I think about it, it does does answer a lot of questions about Garak's motives. He DID play Sisko, but it was a " you scratch, my back I'll scratch yours" situation. It could be argued that Garak did this to help liberate his homeland.
When you are doing a Garek impression, you sound like Steve Shives. 😂
Damn you didn't have to come at him like that!
What an insult. That's just uncalled for.
I mean god damn that was intense.
From the moment he became the Emissary, he was no longer a member of Star Fleet, or at least not exclusively he was alien to lineal life.
The analysis by Bashir and all the other augments had the fundamental flaw of not accounting for the influence of 1 individual, which Bashir himself proved was quite a fatal flaw in the calculations.
In the Pale Moonlight is a timeless episode that seems like it could have been written in the early 2000s.
It could be written now.
DS9 was my least favorite. It was the least Star Trek of the old star Trek. But in this , this one of the greatest of all star trek episode. Star Trek is about thinking. Something the new Star trek lacks. They are after Wow. They new star trek did an episode that used the work of the classic TOS. The introduction of the Romulans. YOunger fans would get interested to seeing why TOS was so good. Of all the Star Trek aliens, I like the Romulans better. As a villain, they are more complex. No matter how much culture they add, they are just about war.
Romulans are more human like.
Thanks I actually missed that coaching Sisko to say they lost good men, that he said he lost all his good men. This is actually great witting by DS9 we know Garrak lies all the time but we too were so wrapped up with Siskos emotions that we let him manipulate us.
To quote Colonel Troutmam "The statue was always there, he just chipped away the rough edges. "
Cisco came "full circle" that episode and made peace with what it took to fight a war to win it. Did Garek play him? Sure. Or maybe he just chipped away the rough edges.
Cisco? Garek? lol.
Garak is SO GOOD as a character... Lying to Worf for practice... assassination... deception... and that Bromance with Bashir... And ARGUABLY a savior of the alpha (and less remembered beta) quadrants
Iregardlass is not a word regardless is a negative without the i.
so glad I'm not the only person who noticed this and cringed.
Irrespective would be the correct format
Just because it's horrible nonsense, doesn't mean it's not a word. Have you met the English language? 😬 Here let me unpeel that banana for you. Oh wait you already peeled it? 😂 Man I love hate this language.
I had to pause the video and recover after that assault on my ears.
Irregardless is actually a word in the English language. It means exactly the same thing as regardless.
“subterfuge is tight!” - Captain Sisko
Best episode of Ds9, best episode of star trek
One of my favorite episodes of Star Trek. "In the Pale Moonlight" is a brilliant script and acted so well by the entire cast.
Rewatched this episode with my kid recently, who is a PG student in history. Her field? WW2 Crimes against Humanity. It's a sad day when a kid reminds you that 'moral codes kept in times of moral crisis die. The Humanity those codes are meant to protect, live on to find a better way'. Garek gave Sisko that opportunity. He knew the war was a mess that could not be won, and he set up a way for victory. Everyone who fights loses something. Sisko would have found a way to achieve his goal, but if he'd done it his way, he wouldn't have lived through it, he wouldn't have found a better way. And they needed him to protect everyone from the Pa'Raiths a year later. That was a mission only Sisko could fulfill. It was war, by its very name 'war' something is going badly, generally on all sides. Sisko knew he needed Garek for the exact purpose of finding a solution..
Great video very informative
Garak made me super happy when I was running an antique shop in a down-town overrun with tweakers and junkies. I just pretended all the addicts that came in to steal were aliens I was supposed to spy on. But when the tourists and old ladies came around, the sad part is, I was a very good antique shop manager.
Merry Christmas to you too bro I hope you got that gelato machine you been wanting
It's that old story, monsters are needed to destroy monsters.
This is what makes DS9 unique, the cast was not composed of the "perfect" officers we usually see in the fleet's glorious flagships, they were what Starfleet needed in dark times.
Still love that you call the Rihannsu by their proper name.
Garek is my favorite character in DS9. I think Garek played Sisko hard, and what happened was only very slightly not his main plan.
I'm not sure about killing the Senator. That move was always part of the backup plan but the fallout could have easily have been the Romulans joining the Dominion. In the chance that the halo programmer did his job well enough then I don't think the shuttle would have been destroyed.
Garak had to have planted the bomb already, but wouldn't have needed to detonate it if Vreenak hadn't decided the data rod was fake.
OMG didn't any of you ever get it? Garak's character was indirectly based on the title of the John LeCarre novel "TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY".
Merry Christmas Lore Masters
IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT, the best Star Trek episode of all time. Shakespeare would have loved it, and justifiably. Every speech, heartfelt, every act...darker than the last. It was what good theater is all about, and shown to us on..TV?
I can only praise that episode, not a single negative word applies.
As Sisko says in an earlier season, “It's easy to be a saint in paradise.”
Andy Robinson is one hell of an actor, from Dirty Harry (he played the Scorpio Killer) to Deep Space Nine (Garak).
agreed
Morality, to a degree, is situational.
You need men like Sisko who are principled in peace but willing to compromise to win existential battles.
The true measure of his morality would not be his actions during war, though war does not justify all crimes, but instead how well they return to upholding the principles that make peace great.
Merry Christmas, Lore Masters. I'm so glad that Pale Moonlight is getting serious attention. All these years later and it's still my favorite ST episode of any series.
It was time for the Federation to take the gloves off. To quote the outlaw Josey Wales.
Josey Wales : Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up, then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.
One of if not the best DS9 episode
A can of diced carrots will always make a dish taste bad regardless of what you call it.
It is what it is.
When you purchase that can, its taste will be bad, either by itself, or in a recipe.
Sisko made the decision to go to the grocery store and he chose to buy those canned carrots.
This may be one of your best lore breakdowns. Love the topic.
7:30 So basically Star Fleet had devolved into a bunch of bookworms and geeks and behaving like a bunch of ostriches burying their heads in the sand, to the constant and very real dangers of exploring and defending their territories.
Their much-beloved philosophy of Exploration of Space while having just a bare minimum of weapons and proper defense shields, shows just how little they value their own lives and the lives of their crews and officers compared to their utopian Prime Directive of Non-Interference.
The entire fleet of ships should have been revamped long ago to all have state-of-the-art defensive shields and weapons plus a strong contingent of military personnel to have any military threats they may encounter.
By definition, space is a very large and lonely place, which makes it an ideal place for pirates and military adversaries to prey on you and your colonies. So it makes zero sense for Star Felt ships to be so pacifists and unarmed as most of them were.
Just imagine how super awesome DS9 could have been if in the end of Season 1 cliff hanger we could have got clean shaved head Sisko with USS Defiant. Already fighting a Dominion war😊
There need to be a fan fiction where someone else dragged the borg into the dominion war too. That could be the greatest war drama ever.
*The Borg would be on-sight with EVERYBODY.*
The war might have to be halted!
2:20 The statistical calculations of the Think Tank of the genetically altered humans did NOT consider adding new elements like the Romulans to the war (or other untapped potential allies). They also did not consider using unconventional means of warfare, like collapsing the worm hole or a replicant virus on the founders or things like "fireships" made with Romulan ship engines (which literally contained a singularity/black hole inside of them).
well.. on the moral implications on bringing in the romulans: it is made pretty clear by their other actions. that the romulans would simply have been next. once the federation and klingons were fallen, the dominion would invade romulan space. so in a sense. sisko is merely speeding up that conflict to open up a second front. brutal, perhaps. but, more people would have died had that happened.
And... I think.. that he might've not had any contacts, but he would certainly have had people he'd wanted dead on cardassia.
07:03 - It's not that the Dominion couldn't destroy DS9, it's that Odo was there so they couldn't take it by destroying it. It had to be taken without harming him.
To be fair, it is quite understandable why Sisko wanted to pull in the Romunlans. Sisko understood the character of the Dominion. Though he did not knew, he probably (and perhaps instinctually) suspected that the Dominion would go as far as to exterminate entire planets to preserve their rule. It may would've not happened in that particular war in case of a truce, but would've happened in the next one, which most likely would've happen. That obviously would've resulted in greater losses on the long term.
Because despite their highly advanced technology and sciences, the Dominion, were a barbaric in their nature, who seen preservation through utter dominance, and as such, had to forced fed them with the humble pie of true defeat.
He also forgot that Bashir was replaced by a Founder
My 2 fav characters are garak and Eddington. Why? Because both were successful in fundamentally changing the way sisco behaved. Sisco went from being the prophet to being just another flawed man who needed to bend the strick federation rules to suit him.
but sisko didn't really embrace being the emissary (prophets are the wormhole aliens) until much later in the series. and even then, he only did so after getting to know bajor and its people.
and sisko was always flawed. the first arc of the show showed that, first when he was pissed at picard for the death of his wife and then by the prophets showing him that he had been living in the past after his wife died.
@@maxacorn sisko was half prophet. His mother was inhabited by one at his conception. Emissary to the bejorans but a prophet nonetheless. I meant his starfleet ideals were changed after he recovered from his grief after worf 359. I agree with most of what you said.
It seemed to me that Sisko "wanted" Garak to manipulate him in the Pale Moon Light, that way he would make Garak feel more invested in the mission. Garak likes to think of himself as being the smartest person in the room, but that only becomes true if the people in the room humor him. None of the Starfleet crew on DS9 are fooled by Garak's "tailor" act, we see this demonstrated time and again throughout the series. However, Sisko really needs Garak to be invested in this high stakes mission because he is aware of Garak's true nature. Before ending his monologue at the end, Sisko fully accepts the consequences of HIS actions, not Garak's.
Random, but is the Cardassian logo in the program backwards? Every image i see of it has the hole and dash of yellow on the other side. Maybe that's what tipped off Vrenak?
What I didn't understand was why Garak cooperated. He asked for nothing, from what I can tell gained nothing but a couple of punches to the face, and ended up with a destroyed home planet. When Sisko came to him, his planet was winning the war with the Federation, as a vassal state of a more powerful empire, but on the winning side. Why would he cooperate with Sisko?
Lore brother war is not broken down by math. If conflict really was determinate as such half of victories would not have been victories in real life. Germania resistance to Rome, American War of Independence, British Resistance to Nazi Germany in WW2, Japans Victory over Russi in the Russo Japanese war these were all unforeseen victories on the outset of each of these conflicts.
Most of war can be calculated. That is well proven by the fact that Japan’s superior warrior ethic could not stand up to American industry. Even the occasional Sgt York or Dan Daily can be mathed in if you accurately account for subtler factors and can find a way to get extra men and artillery in situations where one of them might make a difference.
Exactly. You can't predict a war by demographics
@@thomasconnors4338 yes in a protracted conflict yes but in the cases of nested war which these days war can easily evolve into such an invading force can find it hard to find measurable victory because your fighting for someone's home. Trust me dude I'm in the Military war is my life understanding what War is has been my job for all of my adult life. The more I understand the more i find i know little about war.
@@808INFantry11X You're in a modern military. Any of us could pacify the entire middle east faster than Genghis Kahn. Iraq is a quadmire? Block the Tigris and Euphrates in Kurdistan, kill every man woman and child in Baghdad, then take Turkish and Iranian Kurdistan for our collaborators and give them their enemy's gold.
PS thank you for your service. Marine Corps Infantry here.
Well, the Ninth Fleet was at DS9 if you forgotten. That is at the minimum 300 ships not to mention the Klingon ships. Betazed was out of position so they got in and dug in. You should question why Betazed or any federation planet had such shitty planetary defense.
You are correct that Garak did not contact any of his insiders. He had planned from the start to fake the data. This is stereotypical of obsidian order the path of least resistance too get the desired result.
I did what you suggested and went to Amazon Prime and watched the episode but just Sisko and Garak. Thank you for suggesting that.
Great breakdown of one of my favourite DS9 episodes.
Have a great Christmas!
I do have to make a correction. minor one, and if you go back and rewatch the episode you will agree wholeheartedly. Bashir DID NOT want to surrender. he merely saw it as the only viable option for survival of Federation member worlds at that point. the total unconditional surrender and dissolution of the United Federation of Planets to save billions. he pressed it so hard cause he thought it was the only way at that moment, not out of desire to bow.
When I say he wanted to surrender, I didn't mean he was happy about it, perhaps a better way to say it is he wanted to save lives, and thought surrendering was the best way.
@@LoreReloaded that is the perfect way to put it. because while Julian still has bouts of idealism throughout the series (from my perspective) he is still one to give way to a more pragmatic view and that, while I believe a desperate option was at the time, still the most pragmatic path. that said the bouts of idealism come, I think, from the fact that he was a young, fresh faced officer when he was stationed at DS9, and there tends to be a certain subtle (and sometimes not so subtle where Garak was involved) naivety that was ever present earlier on, that slowly waned over the series, but never gave way completely. which I also think is why he was so readily able to jump on board with the war, even after he crunched the numbers with the other augments. because once the brass made its choice, it was cemented there would be no surrender. win, lose, or draw the UFP would follow the principles of honor, duty, courage and discipline and defend life, freedom, and the rights of all sentient beings. the still naive side of Julian was able to jump on board with it. take their tiny margin of era in mind and remember a small chance is still a chance and desperate wars like that had been won throughout every known world's known history. so even having crunched the numbers, he set aside the logic of the numbers and gave himself to the more morally righteous path. after all, it is better to die on your feet free, than to live in your knees as a slave.
5:17 do you have a video with just those conversations or a playlist in which they're ordered?
Tricking the Romulans onto the Federation's side WAS realpolitik / pragmatism rather than anything virtuous, but from our mostly omniscient perspective we know from the Female Changeling's 'You're dead!' speech to Garak and the Blight that the Dominion would have destroyed the Star Empire when they were able to just as they would have turned on the Cardassians.
Basically all evidence on the Dominion points to if you cross them your whole civilization is branded a threat and then either destroyed (as they were planning to do with the Federation, Cardassians and probably Romulans), made an example of as the Teplans were or bio engineered into nothing more than living tools of the Founders as the Vorta and Jem Hadar were (the likely fate of the Klingons).
Put another way, Borg assimilation is arguably a kinder fate than a Dominion victory over you.
Merry Christmas pal
In the Pale Moonlight is the the finest 48 minutes of television ever. Period.
Alternatively what if the contacts weren’t cardasian but romulan, call them up and pass on information about the war and offer an easy in for them
And a Merry Christmas to you Lore Master.
What if Garrick worked for section 31? Then most of his actions would be completely explainable. If not an employee of section 31, then a operative working for section 31 without his complete knowledge.
He has no interest in the Federation. His heart is Cardassian and will do what is needed to keep Cardassia alive. At that point, he knew there was no chance Cardassia would ever be free of the Dominion without the Federation alliance surviving and winning this war. Therefore, he had to do what was needed to get the Romulans to join in since the Federation and Klingon successes were dismal without them.
I'm finding that out now as I read a stitch in time..
He destroyed who Sisko was!!! Sisko is not a child. He made his own logical decisions based on the information available. He made them with no regrets.
Garak is perhaps my most favorite character in all Star Trek, the same with Rom, Quark, Nog, Neelix and the likes...
I admit, I hadn't thought about Garak lying about his contacts being killed within 24 hours. You make a very valid point and I think you right.
Romulans played the role of the USA. Sitting back, letting all the players bleed themselves then I think they would enter in
Never realized the parallels to the WWs.
Excellent take!! Merry Christmas!!
I think that Sisko was a Section 31 operative. Sisko violated many Federation rules and should have been demoted. I believe O'Brien was a Section 31 operative as well. There were many instances that he just happened to be in the right spot and/or had the right answer.
Odo was why Deep Space 9 wasn’t taken when the lines moved. The founders wanted him to still feel important, they could leave him for last.
Merry Christmas
From the moment that Basir was known to want the Federation to surrender, then Section 31 should have taken him out - end of story!
You can't afford to have seditious officers among your senior ranks.
Imagine starfleet ships captained and crewed by UNSC officer's sailor's and AI's.
Could Garak also be a Section 31 operative? After all Section 31 has Kuval, Romulan in the Tal Shiar. Sisko is a Section 31 operative as well. Oh, O'Brian too since Section 31 knew so much about Bashir.
I still love garai
He is a bloody brilliant Cardie
Bringing the Romulans into war reduces the amount of death by increasing the amount of opposing forces towards the dominion lest starfleet and klingions die because of Romulus joining the war which forces the dominion to divide there forces up even more
One of the better Star Trek episodes ever.
it's the war that "destroyed" him . if not for Garak Sisko would have joined forces with section 31
For all we know, he might have anyway, and we just never found out
Your right Nitpicking Nerd. And for me at least, In The Pale Moonlight is my least favorite, and by far most depressing, episode of ANY Star Trek series. Star Trek advocating for and celebrating the exact amorality it was made partially as a reaction against really burned.
@@Andregrindle Yeah, it was depressing for me to see that episode. "For the Uniform" was a letdown too for me.
It was probably garek that planted the idea of the romulans entering the war in the doctor's head in the first place.
He also likely had contacts in the star empire, letting gerak know they were ready and willing to enter the war. All they needed was an excuse.
Lore Reloaded, I hope you too have a great Christmas.
Garak is the hero of the Alpha Quadrant in my opinion.
Sisko lost his moral centre when he screwed over the Maquis using WMDs against them...
So for him to be such a stickler for those UFP weakness, just made little to no sense to me.
I don't think so. Before now Sisko poisoned an entire planet for one man and has been nothing but ruthless to the Marquis. Sisko even gave Picard the cold shoulder in the first episode. Threaten Quark on more then one occasion.
If anything having second thoughts about Garak's plan knowing full well who is and who he worked for strikes me as odd giving what we have seen
Sisko did not have an "Archer Breakdown" where he cloned beings to harvest them, raided an innocent vessel, almost suffocated a helpless prisoner and had issues even after getting back to Earth.
Sisko isn't phased. The Borg took his wife and he still keeps going.
How is this possible garak is just a tailor... Is he not?... XD
It's *regardless* not *irregardless* as that's a double negative. It's like you're not supposed to say *I could care less* and instead say *I couldn't care less.*
It’s in the dictionaries :)