So you're arguing that the good citizens of Whiterun just decide to hold a funeral for the missing Saadia and place an urn of her belongings in the crypt and that she's not really dead? That's thin. That's really thin. She is executed by Klematuu.
@dragonlordx20 This is trying to force real-world logistics into what's developed in a video game engine. If I grab a follower from Whiterun and then murder them in the bowels of Saarthal, who delivers the body? If I marry Ysolda and take her to my home and then "divorce" her, who moves her body? The game engine registers the death and creates an urn. Now, although I insinuated that Saadia is executed, one could argue that her death was from escape or self deletion rather than be returned as a prisoner. These could be possible alternatives. The game engine simply does not account for corpse retrieval nor holding memorial services for the unaccounted for.
@@GoddamnBatman1Yeah fair but wouldn't that also mean we should just say the urn appears (if it actually does) because on a gameplay level the character is no longer in the game? It doesn't require a real world explanation such as her execution, it's just a mechanic of Skyrim for when npcs are removed from the world permanently
I think another really subtle clue (at least for me, since I also take this thing into consideration) is Saadia's way of speaking compared to that of Kematu. Saadia always had that uppity vibe to her, which I didn't like. Kematu, on the other hand, is like "Dude, let's just get this done with so we can go home."
Regarding the age thing, all Kematu says is that "she sold the city out", and depending on what type of information it was, she could have been a child who happened to hear something of value.
Great video laid out very well. I think the age point is moot because yeah no good source on her age and you are correct to dismiss this. On the point of the thalmor not helping her or giving her help in skyrim. We know the thalmor and presumably those at embassy are elven supremists. I think its plausible they used her in the great war and helped her and they immediatly provided no help or rewarded her for siding with them. So think it makes sense for them to leave her even after she helped. I think ultimately saadia is lying for the reasons you have laid out especially because we have no evidence to suggest the thalmor are actively hunting her or would even care about her. Kematu's story makes way more sense and to capture and punish saadia would be a big political win for the redguards. Both domestically and beyond. Could say they brought traitor to justice and could stretch the truth by saying she fled to skyrim as it was occupied by the thalmor and they were helping her evade justice. Which stretches the truth a bit, but is arguably true given they werent allowed to actively seek and capture her in whiterun, she was to some degree protected by the White-Gold Concordat. So they score points against the thalmor by implying they helped or rewarded her post war. Saadia probably assumes you are a citizen of skyrim and by extension assume you have anti thalmor beliefs and just tries to use that to manipulate you. Her life is more at stake than kematu's. It makes sense she will say anything to survive.
Most people agree that Saadia is a liar, however I used Mantella AI to ask her the full story and here's what I got (Keep in mind, I know that Mantella AI is capable of fabricating stories): I basically asked her about the entire story and she told me that her family secretly has dealings with the Thalmor and when she spoke out against them, her family used their connection to the Thalmor to have them hire the Alikr to track her down and bring her back, which would explain the weird roundabout way that the Thalmor are tracking her down. If I remember correctly, the Alikr are bringing her back to Hammerfell, where her family will secretly take her to their connection to the Thalmor, where she will then be publicly executed. She even went as far as telling me that her scar is from the last time she saw her family, and was created from her sister trying to kill her. Still probably lies, but I actually like that theory a lot. That sorta makes the Alikr less of liars too, considering they are technically doing it for a noble family who are secretly in line with the Thalmor, which they, of course, don't know about. Maybe someone can think about that theory on the next playthrough, if they want to spare Saadia. Although, this would make it harder to kill the Alikr, seeing as how they would just be following the orders of a corrupt noble family of Hammerfell.
Nice analysis. I always sided with Saadia and now I feel like a Thalmor puppet for weakening the free Hammerfell elite unit.
It's worth it though, you get to keep the Alik'r swords
So you're arguing that the good citizens of Whiterun just decide to hold a funeral for the missing Saadia and place an urn of her belongings in the crypt and that she's not really dead?
That's thin. That's really thin. She is executed by Klematuu.
@@GoddamnBatman1 Who then promptly returned the body/ashes to Whiterun?
@dragonlordx20 This is trying to force real-world logistics into what's developed in a video game engine.
If I grab a follower from Whiterun and then murder them in the bowels of Saarthal, who delivers the body? If I marry Ysolda and take her to my home and then "divorce" her, who moves her body?
The game engine registers the death and creates an urn.
Now, although I insinuated that Saadia is executed, one could argue that her death was from escape or self deletion rather than be returned as a prisoner. These could be possible alternatives.
The game engine simply does not account for corpse retrieval nor holding memorial services for the unaccounted for.
@@GoddamnBatman1Yeah fair but wouldn't that also mean we should just say the urn appears (if it actually does) because on a gameplay level the character is no longer in the game? It doesn't require a real world explanation such as her execution, it's just a mechanic of Skyrim for when npcs are removed from the world permanently
I think another really subtle clue (at least for me, since I also take this thing into consideration) is Saadia's way of speaking compared to that of Kematu. Saadia always had that uppity vibe to her, which I didn't like. Kematu, on the other hand, is like "Dude, let's just get this done with so we can go home."
Regarding the age thing, all Kematu says is that "she sold the city out", and depending on what type of information it was, she could have been a child who happened to hear something of value.
Great video laid out very well.
I think the age point is moot because yeah no good source on her age and you are correct to dismiss this.
On the point of the thalmor not helping her or giving her help in skyrim. We know the thalmor and presumably those at embassy are elven supremists. I think its plausible they used her in the great war and helped her and they immediatly provided no help or rewarded her for siding with them. So think it makes sense for them to leave her even after she helped.
I think ultimately saadia is lying for the reasons you have laid out especially because we have no evidence to suggest the thalmor are actively hunting her or would even care about her.
Kematu's story makes way more sense and to capture and punish saadia would be a big political win for the redguards. Both domestically and beyond. Could say they brought traitor to justice and could stretch the truth by saying she fled to skyrim as it was occupied by the thalmor and they were helping her evade justice. Which stretches the truth a bit, but is arguably true given they werent allowed to actively seek and capture her in whiterun, she was to some degree protected by the White-Gold Concordat. So they score points against the thalmor by implying they helped or rewarded her post war.
Saadia probably assumes you are a citizen of skyrim and by extension assume you have anti thalmor beliefs and just tries to use that to manipulate you. Her life is more at stake than kematu's. It makes sense she will say anything to survive.
Also if you look at her hair the gray helps tell her age
Most people agree that Saadia is a liar, however I used Mantella AI to ask her the full story and here's what I got (Keep in mind, I know that Mantella AI is capable of fabricating stories):
I basically asked her about the entire story and she told me that her family secretly has dealings with the Thalmor and when she spoke out against them, her family used their connection to the Thalmor to have them hire the Alikr to track her down and bring her back, which would explain the weird roundabout way that the Thalmor are tracking her down. If I remember correctly, the Alikr are bringing her back to Hammerfell, where her family will secretly take her to their connection to the Thalmor, where she will then be publicly executed. She even went as far as telling me that her scar is from the last time she saw her family, and was created from her sister trying to kill her.
Still probably lies, but I actually like that theory a lot. That sorta makes the Alikr less of liars too, considering they are technically doing it for a noble family who are secretly in line with the Thalmor, which they, of course, don't know about.
Maybe someone can think about that theory on the next playthrough, if they want to spare Saadia. Although, this would make it harder to kill the Alikr, seeing as how they would just be following the orders of a corrupt noble family of Hammerfell.
there is a more recent conflict between hammerfel and the dominion I believe it's only a few years old by the time the events in skyrim take place
Saadia is clearly the traitor 😅 it’s obvious when she tells her story. There are no thalmor in hammerfell
U dont have to kill rhe dragon thay jus turn up
You get a like.
Use the Pacif spell