For me, the scene where Ishar fights Dalinar was scarier than the scene where we see the spren experiments- the raw power of being able to *take* presumably any spren bond from a radiant mixed with the disregard for the responsibilities of that power chills me to the bone
Isn’t that why the humans’ planet was ruined? They had the surges without the checks that the radiants have. So Ishar should be terrifying especially now that he’s insane and learned Dalinar’s trick of charging up with Stormlight whenever he wants without having a spren to keep him to some vows.
Been waiting for this episode. Ishar's scene in RoW was viscerally horrifying in a way nothing else in the series has been so far. His specific brand of insanity, plus his experiments, plus his powers form a person I'm genuinely scared to see moving forward.
The way he would dismiss and immediately resummon his honour blade to avoid attempts to block or parry him. To connect anything to any other thing is horrifying.
You guys are talking about how terrifying it would be for Ishar to summon an army of Radiant Spren, but what if he summoned more primal spren? Imagine an army of Angerspren or Deathspren.
Ishar trying to pull fused into the physical realm to permanently kill him would be an interesting parallel to Raboniel. The scholarly type of both sides trying to solve the same problem through different methods, with the one from the traditional "good side" having much more monstrous methods.
Taln didn't break after 4500 years. IMO he could have held on even longer but he voluntarily returned after the fused found a way around the oathpact with the ever storm
Interesting idea but 1. That’s not what happened with the everstorm, taln returned before the everstorm so that doesn’t check out wi5 the timeline 2. The complete insanity experienced by taln would suggest he almost certainly broke
@@Valiguss was ulim on Roshar before taln broke? Yes. In one of venlis flashbacks it confirms that the ever storm was already brewing and they needed the parshendi to pull it into the physical realm. Nale thought ulim was on Roshar because of gavilar which is why he gave the parshendi the tool to kill him.
@@rock53355 but ulim was able to get through because taln was breaking and with the oathpsct weakened because of the other heralds abandoning it they were able to break free The everstorm may have been brewing before taln returned but there is 0 evidence to suggest that it could have been summoned before then, in fact large numbers of spren were only brought forward after taln returned
@@Valiguss we do know how ulim returned to Roshar. He was given to venli by a terris woman. We don't know the exact mechanics but it could have been similar to gavilar travelling to braize to get anti void light.
20:15 It occurs to me that Ishar's method of transferring a spren to the Physical Realm might be the last piece of the puzzle, getting Kelsier off Scadriel. Or, he having solved that problem on his own, getting him out of the Cognitive Realm.
In case no one else has commented it, in reference to the frost glyphs, my guess is that it may have something to do with just the sheer amount of Investiture being used/coalescing at any one point. We know the blades forming from Mist is due to the fact that they're forms of Investiture coalescing in one spot. So maybe since swearing an Oath is so powerful, it releases/involves a lot of Investiture, that Investiture Mist freezes into frost? And then what Ishar is doing also requires a lot of Investiture so it freezes into frost? I'm totally guessing here, but I wanted to share
Something about Ishar's unique brand of insanity (basically believing that he is God), coupled with his insane powers that allow him to, at least in part, actually enforce what he wants, makes him very scary to me after that scene with Dalinar Also congratulations Eric and Jess!
@@_argent if you mentioned the question you were going to ask in the future, which is the past when I saw you ask the question, with this stream of you mentioning the question being in the further future at the time. (hmmmm....kinda works if you tilt your head)
I kinda figured there's some Connection-y shenanigans going on with the Tukari in Shadesmar. Something similar to constantly filling a duraluminmind. The phrasing on the Coppermind's duralumin page implies that people think about you less and are less aware of you. So more specifically I think Ishar took away, or suppressed, most of their Connections, to the point that you don't recognize who they are. Like it blocks out their face the same way Dalinar heard Evi as Shshsh for a long while. I'd even bet that if you put any one of them alone in a group of others and passed by them, you wouldn't notice a thing, and that the only reason they were noticed was that there weren't others around. It's invisibility, but social rather than optic.
1:33:00 I think that may have to do with Savantism, while Radiants are shielded from the worst of those effects, the Heralds have definitely used Stormlight more than Radiants, and there is nothing to indicate that Honorblades have those same guards.
What if Ishar's plan is to get Cultivation or the New Honor to pull the shard of Odium into the physical realm. Then kill it permanently solving the Odium problem
The ability to have the power into eh physical completely like how Odium threw the dying shards into the cognitive realm. It could disperse and reform at a later date. So if odium shard fell apart seconds after being pulled into the physical realm it could escape destruction and be rebuilt like what I think is what will happen to Honor's shard and the person who merges with it
What if dalinar becomes a fused and then gets sealed on braise and has to torture kaladin for odium? Also we deserve stormblessed vs the blackthorn It should be noted that kaladin describes a similar atium like ability in the arena in words of radiance, he claims that he could keep dodging as well even with his eyes closed which is something atium would allow and generally displays a degree of awareness that is superhuman even for him (I think this is because the rules for surgebidners are breaking down and so kaladin is getting more access to spiritual adhesion which based on how atium works would enable you to replicate it by connecting yourself to the spiritual realm) (Also like what is with kaladin fighting ability he is very very similar to vin in his insanely talented abilities and also both of them display an almost physical addictive need to use them, kaladin like cannot not fight and same for vin with allowancy) (also like nobody talks about this enough but THE FUSED CALL KALADIN BY A TITLE, the only other title I believe they use is for navani (maybe dalinar idk) but for everyone else they get their job title at best, but kaladin is afforded his own honorific and even with navani she had to be like bgiven the title by one of the , Kaladin is just such a boss he earned a title on his own)
Rasarr is wicked smart. Spitting out facts and quick analysis at staggering speed. Bouncing off everyone wonderfully, really listening and staying on topic, I tend to agree with everything they’re saying just by the way they say it. Love it, wonderful addition. Could listen for hours
2 things as I'm partway through watching: 1. Maybe the experiments Odium had them do were specifically with using the dawnshard to enhance their powers? 2. The heralds were all very specifically nobles or leaders, except Taln (I think). I remember something about him being "the one who never should have been there" or something because of that fact, so Odium influencing Ishar is very much him manipulating someone who had significant influence. Edit: Another thing- do we actually have a timeline for arriving/oathpact/first desolation? Like, do we know in what order they happened or how far apart they were? I guess it all had to be within a human lifetime, at least, considering Ishar was there for all of them.
About the yikes stuff. What if its kind of like a parallel to Raboniel? Both Ishar and Raboniel are searching for a way to kill fused/spren to permanently end the war. Raboniel does this by finding anti-investiture and Ishar does it by pulling them into the physical realm and killing them.
Ishar called himself an Aspect of the Almighty. I think Honor was splintered into identifiable parts and access to one of them is granted through the Honorblade, Stormfather and something that I have guessed at but won't state yet. I agree with him that he is more powerful than he once was. Ishar and Dalinar are both Aspects at this moment.
2:05:34 I’m pretty sure it was said that someone needs connection to all three realms to properly ascend, kelsier only had connection to 2 the cognitive and the spiritual
I think the Ten Deaths are an Honor thing, not an Odium Thing. I'd expect there to only be nine otherwise. I also think that when it says Ishar "bound other surges" to bring the humans to Roshar it may mean two really interesting things: 1. He used his Bondsmith abilities to use the surges of other orders of radiant as well. He managed to use all ten at once Or 2. He was able to use completely different magic systems. Allomancy, Awakening, any power in the Cosmere. Either way that puts a Bondsmith Unchained on a higher level of power than any other non-Shard, even the Lord Ruler
I think a 5th ideal radiant could quite possibly beat a fullborn reliably Lightweaver- disintegration or soul cast the air into diamonds Elsecaller- soulcast air to diamond Stonewarda- turn stone to mush and then as hard as steel with the poor suffocating fullborn inside the ground Willshaper- actually they totally dead Sky breaker- fly around and do what division does to kill him, even better send them to space Edgedancer - make their hits slide off you and just op heal straight through their hits till you get in enough lucky ones to win(like renarin vs thunderclast) Truthwatcher- laser or op healing (edgedancer and truthwatcher may have a problem but I think maybe they could still have a solid chance) Now the big 3- Bond smiths- just take all their powers or any number of stupidly op things Wind runners- a wind runners unchained may be able to do some of what a bondsmith does as the rules for surge binding break down, an example from kaladin suggests mimicking atium, send them to space, just fly away drop an asteroid on them so many insane things Dustbringer- from what little we know they are basically walking eapons of mass destruction which should say enough All the whole being basically immune to all pushes with a blade that instant kills and healing, strength, endurance and resilience equivalent to a compounder plus a bunch of powers that basically can’t be messed with by the fullborn Also based on what we can tell like the amount of investiture in a 5th ideal radiant based on nomad on may even be able to form a cognitive shadow which puts their level of investiture really high
Regarding Jezrien and Nale being 'enemies', I was thinking more in the terms of how they are in person. As in Jezrien was the King of Heralds and Nale was the Judge. So Jez is more about Kingly duties like strengthening and expanding borders of Kingdom ( Shinovar as the place granted to humans on Roshar upon arrival from Ashyn. ). Whereas Nale was all about what is right. Nale thinks Roshar belongs to the Singers hence humans should just confine themselves to Shinovar or leave Roshar completely and find another suitable uninhabited planet for humans' survival. Regarding Odium tricking Ishar..... When Odium came to the Rosharan system, Honor & Cultivation were the Gods of the singers and there was no way for Odium to curropt the system with his power unless he introduces his agents into the physical world. Hence he had to bring humans from Ashyn to Roshar in the first place ( Im also sure its through Odium Ashyn humans also first accessed Shadesmar). Thus he corrupted Ishar by introducing Voidbinding to Ashyn magic system corrupting it ( mostly it will be something similiar to the prevailing system in Ashyn like Everstorm to Highstorm etc ) and thus causes the surgebinding process to overload and cause its destruction.
Could there be some sort of exchange going on with Ishar's Tukari and the spren that enables his experiments? In the trial scene Adolin feels Maya's pain when she's in great distress and gives her strength in return that reanimates her somehow (though Blended notes that her eyes are still scratched out. These Tukari seem to be deliberately putting spren in extreme pain/distress and it is presumably connected to Ishar's experiments. Maybe extreme pain/emption is the first requirement for a Odium-based Nahel bond type of thing (Give me your pain), and these Ishar is trading his Tukari's Identity/strength to manifest these spren physically somehow. Their faces being shrouded in shadow (with eyes hard to glimpse) reminds me of the scratched out eyes of deadeyes, and I see a theme with shrouded eyes and loss of Identity throughout the series.
One thing I was just tossing around in my head is that Ishar was talking about reforging the Oathpact. The heralds might not have to be the ones who swear the Oathpact itself. Why can't our main POV characters make up the new Oathpact if needed? Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, Lyft, Dalinar, Renarin(?), 4 others from the back 5 books? Not sure.
Why would you want to rely on that broken plan? It was a crack idea in the first place lol. They HAVE to find a better solution. Like... Deal with Odium and then make peace with the Singers.
You know... I'm listening to this just today, Tress being the last Cosmere book I've read - and when Grace mentions that midnight essence is in Stormlight I was super surprised. I had completely forgotten that it's referenced in Stormlight at all! There's a ton of videos out there about Cosmere connections in Tress, now I want to see if we can find more Tress connections in the rest of the Cosmere, haha
Syl and other Honor spren can reshape their clothes with stormlight in Shadesmar. Presumably, an Honorspren could transform their clothes to be, well, skin? Or not clothes? Their clothes are changeable at least, meaning they aren’t super strongly tied to their existence in Shadesmar
Or maybe Ishars insanity has him finding his own all powerful army to defeat the singers or even for the coming shard wars... He thinks himself a god, coupled with honors powers and his human fragility, he could see himself taking up Odiums cause as honors medium.
I think Ishar wants to learn to drag cognitive beings into the physical realm so he can learn to drag physical beings into the spirtual realm and keep them alive.
What if ishar is pulling spren to the physical realm as a proof that you can move people between realms against there will, so that he can pull a spiritual being to the physical realm ie. Odium. I don’t think it’s likely but I could understand him making that connection. That way he could could fight odium himself
Could Ishar bring the Stormfather into the physical realm? Possibly as part of taking Honor's power for himself? Or maybe an Unmade to kill it permanently?
28:21 I'm pretty sure I know where this is going... Who caused the destruction of Ashyn? It's been Ishar all along Who put the Skybreakers in action? It's been Ishar all along He's a powerful Bondsmith In Tukar he's a God-King He's a Herald who thinks he's God But it's possible (it's possible) Possible, possible That Dalinar can restore his sanity And stop everything from going wrong It's been Ishar, crazy Ishar It's been Ishar all along "And I'm doing some weird sh*t with spren too" Yes I listened to Agatha All Along again and spent way too long making this
One interesting note about Syl's ROW chapter icon is that she's wearing a flowery dress and a backpack. I don't think she's capable of creating those out of her spren form as of the end of ROW. Post 5th ideal maybe. However I find it odd for her to create a backpack out of her non-corporeal form that probably can't hold anything. This makes me wonder if she is actually physical in the future and able to carry a real backpack. Which leads me to wonder about the spren experiments... yikes indeed.
Ishar is supposed to teach Dalinar to use his powers, but Dalinar isent the only bondsmith. I think it makes alot of sense to have Navani learn from ishar to bondsmith free Dalinar after he fails the challenge of champions.
Evgeni: "... Frost crystallizing a glyph ..." Me: but Frost is on Yolen! ... Oh, right, Evgeni's native language uses fewer prepositions than English. Speaking of the glyphs appearing thing ... Is no one else reminded of Navani's creating a burning glyph of Justice when she thought Dalinar had been betrayed to his death? Who's a bigger betrayer than Ishar, who left Taln to literally millennia of torment?
Ishar is my new favorite character after seeing him in RoW. I was so excited for this one. 1:34:25 near here: What if he Ishar has Connected himself to the spiritual realm so he has the effects of atium at all times? Like he can't fully see the future, but he is Connected to it. This would also give him reason to think that he's the new Almighty (even if he's just crazy).
I think that the plan is to reforge the oathpact but with new heralds. Reforging the oathpact with the same heralds wouldn't work because the current herald are warped and will break very quickly, also Jerizen is dead and i think that it needs all 10. The main body of the oathpact is still there and that new heralds will the oath to hold back the fused (for now). Reforging does not prevent the addition of new material to replace the rusted parts.
About Ulim and the point about odium sending him to tempt and manipulate Venli... Do we know how old Ulim is? He knows the heralds intimately and his form is human. Could he have been the original spren form that Odium sent to Ishar on Ashyn to tempt him? Ishars first spren that he abandoned for honor and his honorblade with the type of abilities that he was experienced with?
Also relating to the idea of Odiums original plans on Ashyn and the system in general, He would have had to be the one to introduce the surges to Ashyn wouldnt he? As the other shards were coexisting on Roshar. I dont think ive ever come across anything saying that they had influence on any other planet. Im assuming his intention was to weaponize the Ashynites to attack roshar, killing the shards for breaking the shardic oath of non cohabitation while also forging an overall force for the future shardic wars. So i think he came to ashyn, laid out base surges, tricked Ishar. Then he either planned to destroy Ashyn and go to Roshar or the destruction wasnt entirely planned but ended up with the result he wanted anyway, them on Roshar as his mobile invested army to infect, as he never weakened himslef enough to truly invest in a planet pre-oathpact. All this time have been delays to his plans while Rayse slowly lost it. The last part of his plan slipping away. Cue Taravangian to refuel and redirect Odiums overall goal.
Tukari in shadow--- Could that be a cross over magic? Maybe their breaths were taken? In the regular world they would look grey, in shadesmare they might be shadowy and less distinctive. Then maybe breaths are given to spren that being pulled into physical form?
Maybe the connection crap that Ishar does to the Tukari is used to give the spren a physical body, as giving enough human connection to something shapes them into a human form
Here's a thought - All the Heralds keep insisting that Ishar is sane and great. Ishar somehow got back in everyone's good graces after his actions led to the destruction of Ashyn. Ishar has people worshiping him as a god. What if this is just a Connection-hack? We know from the Mistborn Ars Arcanum that Connection can help you make friends. What if Ishar is using Connection with other people to make them think of him as sane/wise/benevolent/etc?
I think fortune is just Brandon speak for probability manipulation. I think access to fortune is just understanding probability to the degree of predicting the future.
Not much to add but wanted to give y'all the algorithm bump. In the spirit of wholesomely disagreeing with each other, Weiry had a point about the Storm father saying "this is impossible" with bringing spren to physical realm. Didnt he have similar feelings about what Dalinar did in communicating with Kaladin outside Urithiru?
Regarding the people with their faces shadowed in shadesmar... Couldn´t it just be that they have a Lightweaver that put an ilusion on their faces. As we know the ilusions can be put on a sphere and people can carry it so the Lightweaver could be in the phisical realm without worrying being caught
1 A.M. crank theory hours after watching this, and drinking a bit: Ishar can't experiment on dead-eyes, as they already have a defined form in the physical realm as shardblades, while living shardblades have mutable forms. He seems to be trying to give existences that don't exist in a realm a place. He needs some connection to all 3 realms, so maybe he is trying to strengthen his connection to both the physical AND spiritual realm, which would allow him to move between realms at will (with or without the creating a Perpendicularity), or even let him survive in a world were the realms have been collapsed/merged. Edit: not to mention, if the plan was to leave, then someone would just need to point him to Vasher. So many others are already trying to find ways for a cognitive shadow to leave a world, and Vasher is just there existing and able to travel.
On the point about how the shards can manipulate humans and the requirements to do that. Isn’t the way that the Sibling communicated with mentally unstable people in Urithiru similar to what Ruin did on Scadrial? If it is, that could represent further evidence for the idea that mental instability can damage the spirit web, and that damage can be used as some sort of conduit more easily by shards and or beings with access to large amounts of investiture.
I’m pretty sure your right, Kelsier was only able to communicate with unstable people after he died and radiants normally have some sort of mental problem
I think the answer to Ishar fucking up Ashyn lies in what Raboniel told Venli before the invation of Urithiru Venli asked Raboniel how could they beat the Radiants if they had 2 surges per Radiant while the Fused only had 1 Raboniel´s answer was that Fused could master their one Surge to a level that Radiants could never get because of having 2 What if in Ashyn human Surgebinding was like Fused Surgebinding, with only 1 Surge per Radiant And somehow Ishar, guided by Odium, discovered how to hack the system and use more than 1 Ashyn might´ve been a planet in which Investiture was easier to come by and so Ishar´s experiments led to for example; someone with the Surge of Division to go NUCLEAR and fuck up the planet somehow, after all its described as a burning hellscape Then Odium followed the Ashynites to Roshar where Honor seeing tha danger of the UNBOUND Surges made the rules for the 10 orders of Knights Radiants so that what happenned at Ashyn wouldn´t happen to Roshar
Reforming the oath pack isn’t a solution. The purpose of the everstorm was a endround the oathpack or the fuse would have been back after book one. Also lezrean was returned the the old oathpack way and I remembered him asking has there even been a everstorm i came back so quick.
26:00 What makes you think that Ishar screwed up? He failed, but he may have had good reasons. 35:30 If you want control over Ashyn, you should not destroy it 41:40 They were oathbreakers 32:30 So Honor gave them weapons, superhuman bodies on each return to get them out of the way? 44:30 Honor cannot lie about an oath. How many volunteers will you get for millenia of torture? 51:30 They fought on Ashyn. Why would they stop just because they went to a new planet? 53:00 It sounds that there are more than 10 Surges and Ishar disabled some of them on Roshar. You can get all of them only on Ashyn. 56:00 The sentence is compatible with blocking some Surges from the Rosharans 1:52:30 But Honor is just not lieing around. How do you take up what you do not have? 1:53:00 Exactly. He could test this on temporary Cognitive Shadows. No need to test on sentient spren. 2:02:00 But the Fused cannot leave either. And if that were the issue he could start with animal spren. 2:07:00 What makes you think that a spren has a spiritual component going to the Beyond at all?
Late to the party, and I didn't read if this is already been commented..... But- Ishar's madness has him thinking Dalinar is evil/Odium. What if the same madness has him thinking the radiants are also evil? Is that why he told Nael to kill them? Is he bringing spren to the physical realm because he sees THEM as his army of knights radiant?
Hehe. “Sel phones”.
I fucking groaned audibly hearing that on brando's stream.... when I heard it was Argent I groaned EVEN LOUDER
Meanwhile, as a pun fan, I cackled maliciously.
It was beautiful
Ben looks like he was trapped at a convention for people who wear glasses.
😭😭😂😂
For me, the scene where Ishar fights Dalinar was scarier than the scene where we see the spren experiments- the raw power of being able to *take* presumably any spren bond from a radiant mixed with the disregard for the responsibilities of that power chills me to the bone
Agreed so terrifying!
Completely Agree I was stonished by that whole scene
Isn’t that why the humans’ planet was ruined? They had the surges without the checks that the radiants have. So Ishar should be terrifying especially now that he’s insane and learned Dalinar’s trick of charging up with Stormlight whenever he wants without having a spren to keep him to some vows.
Ooohhhh boy!! A wild Ishar(d)cast has appeared.
CONGRATS chaos for getting married!
Eric asking 'What is a magic system?' at 32:08 is extra funny after yesterday's livestream where Brandon said the same thing xD
Hi Rasarr!! I was nervous my first time too, don't worry you're doing great 😁 we luv you!
Kelsier is like [white] Sand, he gets everywhere.
*slow clap*
Been waiting for this episode. Ishar's scene in RoW was viscerally horrifying in a way nothing else in the series has been so far. His specific brand of insanity, plus his experiments, plus his powers form a person I'm genuinely scared to see moving forward.
The way he would dismiss and immediately resummon his honour blade to avoid attempts to block or parry him. To connect anything to any other thing is horrifying.
"With more lights, we can fix anything"
Comment works for Grace's new place and for Roshar.
You guys are talking about how terrifying it would be for Ishar to summon an army of Radiant Spren, but what if he summoned more primal spren? Imagine an army of Angerspren or Deathspren.
Ishar trying to pull fused into the physical realm to permanently kill him would be an interesting parallel to Raboniel. The scholarly type of both sides trying to solve the same problem through different methods, with the one from the traditional "good side" having much more monstrous methods.
Right off, I'm still stuck on his scars being not Kelsier's scars
Taln didn't break after 4500 years. IMO he could have held on even longer but he voluntarily returned after the fused found a way around the oathpact with the ever storm
Interesting idea but
1. That’s not what happened with the everstorm, taln returned before the everstorm so that doesn’t check out wi5 the timeline
2. The complete insanity experienced by taln would suggest he almost certainly broke
@@Valiguss was ulim on Roshar before taln broke? Yes. In one of venlis flashbacks it confirms that the ever storm was already brewing and they needed the parshendi to pull it into the physical realm. Nale thought ulim was on Roshar because of gavilar which is why he gave the parshendi the tool to kill him.
@@rock53355 but ulim was able to get through because taln was breaking and with the oathpsct weakened because of the other heralds abandoning it they were able to break free
The everstorm may have been brewing before taln returned but there is 0 evidence to suggest that it could have been summoned before then, in fact large numbers of spren were only brought forward after taln returned
@@Valiguss we do know how ulim returned to Roshar. He was given to venli by a terris woman. We don't know the exact mechanics but it could have been similar to gavilar travelling to braize to get anti void light.
@@rock53355 yes that seems likely but that doesn’t mean taln didn’t break since he was still in braise at that point
I was really looking forward to you guys doing an Ishar podcast. My excitement when I saw that it’s almost 3 hours long was palpable.
Congrats Eric and Jess!
20:15 It occurs to me that Ishar's method of transferring a spren to the Physical Realm might be the last piece of the puzzle, getting Kelsier off Scadriel. Or, he having solved that problem on his own, getting him out of the Cognitive Realm.
In case no one else has commented it, in reference to the frost glyphs, my guess is that it may have something to do with just the sheer amount of Investiture being used/coalescing at any one point. We know the blades forming from Mist is due to the fact that they're forms of Investiture coalescing in one spot. So maybe since swearing an Oath is so powerful, it releases/involves a lot of Investiture, that Investiture Mist freezes into frost? And then what Ishar is doing also requires a lot of Investiture so it freezes into frost? I'm totally guessing here, but I wanted to share
Something about Ishar's unique brand of insanity (basically believing that he is God), coupled with his insane powers that allow him to, at least in part, actually enforce what he wants, makes him very scary to me after that scene with Dalinar
Also congratulations Eric and Jess!
Grace 100% said 'he should have targeted the Jedis first'. Now I'm picturing a scene with Ishar killing all the younglings. He would do that.
I wanted to see Evgeni talk about his question in the Sanderson Spoiler Stream in the Future Past Future
Wouldn't it be the past past future?
The what now? :D
@@_argent if you mentioned the question you were going to ask in the future, which is the past when I saw you ask the question, with this stream of you mentioning the question being in the further future at the time. (hmmmm....kinda works if you tilt your head)
@@Daniean Sure, and if I squint at the timeline a bit XD
I kinda figured there's some Connection-y shenanigans going on with the Tukari in Shadesmar. Something similar to constantly filling a duraluminmind. The phrasing on the Coppermind's duralumin page implies that people think about you less and are less aware of you. So more specifically I think Ishar took away, or suppressed, most of their Connections, to the point that you don't recognize who they are. Like it blocks out their face the same way Dalinar heard Evi as Shshsh for a long while. I'd even bet that if you put any one of them alone in a group of others and passed by them, you wouldn't notice a thing, and that the only reason they were noticed was that there weren't others around. It's invisibility, but social rather than optic.
I didn't remember the 10 deaths thing, and I just reread Stormlight. Currently rereading ROW
Ishar scares the shit out of me. That scary scene gave me nightmares hahaha
1:33:00 I think that may have to do with Savantism, while Radiants are shielded from the worst of those effects, the Heralds have definitely used Stormlight more than Radiants, and there is nothing to indicate that Honorblades have those same guards.
“Silence Montane’s grandmother”
“GOD DAMN IT IAN, WHAT -?”
“WHAT THE F***”
(side note: very pleased with the slight uptick of cursing in this episode)
What if Ishar's plan is to get Cultivation or the New Honor to pull the shard of Odium into the physical realm. Then kill it permanently solving the Odium problem
If the goal is to kill, then why care about longevity? Whoever he wants to pull from Cognitive to Physical he wants to have live.
The ability to have the power into eh physical completely like how Odium threw the dying shards into the cognitive realm. It could disperse and reform at a later date. So if odium shard fell apart seconds after being pulled into the physical realm it could escape destruction and be rebuilt like what I think is what will happen to Honor's shard and the person who merges with it
I had no memory of the 10 deaths. I really need to do a WoK reread I think.
In a recent livestream, someone suggested that Kelsier in Fortnite might be TenSoon wearing his bones which is my he knows how to use a rifle
What if dalinar becomes a fused and then gets sealed on braise and has to torture kaladin for odium?
Also we deserve stormblessed vs the blackthorn
It should be noted that kaladin describes a similar atium like ability in the arena in words of radiance, he claims that he could keep dodging as well even with his eyes closed which is something atium would allow and generally displays a degree of awareness that is superhuman even for him
(I think this is because the rules for surgebidners are breaking down and so kaladin is getting more access to spiritual adhesion which based on how atium works would enable you to replicate it by connecting yourself to the spiritual realm)
(Also like what is with kaladin fighting ability he is very very similar to vin in his insanely talented abilities and also both of them display an almost physical addictive need to use them, kaladin like cannot not fight and same for vin with allowancy) (also like nobody talks about this enough but THE FUSED CALL KALADIN BY A TITLE, the only other title I believe they use is for navani (maybe dalinar idk) but for everyone else they get their job title at best, but kaladin is afforded his own honorific and even with navani she had to be like bgiven the title by one of the , Kaladin is just such a boss he earned a title on his own)
Grace being pissed off about the titles is hilarious
Rasarr is wicked smart. Spitting out facts and quick analysis at staggering speed. Bouncing off everyone wonderfully, really listening and staying on topic, I tend to agree with everything they’re saying just by the way they say it. Love it, wonderful addition. Could listen for hours
Shadows can hold Shards I think - Kelsier did, if briefly. So that wouldn't be Ishar's problem.
He did it, bit poorly.
I do love these shard cast. Keep up the good work
It has to be three to two years ago, since Rysn and Vstim were still able to trade with them and nothing seemed amiss then.
2 things as I'm partway through watching:
1. Maybe the experiments Odium had them do were specifically with using the dawnshard to enhance their powers?
2. The heralds were all very specifically nobles or leaders, except Taln (I think). I remember something about him being "the one who never should have been there" or something because of that fact, so Odium influencing Ishar is very much him manipulating someone who had significant influence.
Edit: Another thing- do we actually have a timeline for arriving/oathpact/first desolation? Like, do we know in what order they happened or how far apart they were? I guess it all had to be within a human lifetime, at least, considering Ishar was there for all of them.
That's what I was thinking.
You have to be tethered to the physical realm to ascend.
About the yikes stuff. What if its kind of like a parallel to Raboniel? Both Ishar and Raboniel are searching for a way to kill fused/spren to permanently end the war. Raboniel does this by finding anti-investiture and Ishar does it by pulling them into the physical realm and killing them.
As always, thank you guys for the wonderful content!
Ishar called himself an Aspect of the Almighty. I think Honor was splintered into identifiable parts and access to one of them is granted through the Honorblade, Stormfather and something that I have guessed at but won't state yet. I agree with him that he is more powerful than he once was. Ishar and Dalinar are both Aspects at this moment.
No no no! Jezrein is the most sane herald…
Proof, I’m Scottish.
Damn I love Stormlight. I wish I could listen to you guys without getting a headache.
Sounds serious, you should go get that checked out by someone
Was looking forward for this one. Great work guys
2:05:34 I’m pretty sure it was said that someone needs connection to all three realms to properly ascend, kelsier only had connection to 2 the cognitive and the spiritual
Awesome I like that you corrected yourself re the heralds going to Honor regarding the Oathpact
I think the Ten Deaths are an Honor thing, not an Odium Thing. I'd expect there to only be nine otherwise.
I also think that when it says Ishar "bound other surges" to bring the humans to Roshar it may mean two really interesting things:
1. He used his Bondsmith abilities to use the surges of other orders of radiant as well. He managed to use all ten at once
Or
2. He was able to use completely different magic systems. Allomancy, Awakening, any power in the Cosmere.
Either way that puts a Bondsmith Unchained on a higher level of power than any other non-Shard, even the Lord Ruler
I think a 5th ideal radiant could quite possibly beat a fullborn reliably
Lightweaver- disintegration or soul cast the air into diamonds
Elsecaller- soulcast air to diamond
Stonewarda- turn stone to mush and then as hard as steel with the poor suffocating fullborn inside the ground
Willshaper- actually they totally dead
Sky breaker- fly around and do what division does to kill him, even better send them to space
Edgedancer - make their hits slide off you and just op heal straight through their hits till you get in enough lucky ones to win(like renarin vs thunderclast)
Truthwatcher- laser or op healing (edgedancer and truthwatcher may have a problem but I think maybe they could still have a solid chance)
Now the big 3-
Bond smiths- just take all their powers or any number of stupidly op things
Wind runners- a wind runners unchained may be able to do some of what a bondsmith does as the rules for surge binding break down, an example from kaladin suggests mimicking atium, send them to space, just fly away drop an asteroid on them so many insane things
Dustbringer- from what little we know they are basically walking eapons of mass destruction which should say enough
All the whole being basically immune to all pushes with a blade that instant kills and healing, strength, endurance and resilience equivalent to a compounder plus a bunch of powers that basically can’t be messed with by the fullborn
Also based on what we can tell like the amount of investiture in a 5th ideal radiant based on nomad on may even be able to form a cognitive shadow which puts their level of investiture really high
Regarding Jezrien and Nale being 'enemies', I was thinking more in the terms of how they are in person. As in Jezrien was the King of Heralds and Nale was the Judge. So Jez is more about Kingly duties like strengthening and expanding borders of Kingdom ( Shinovar as the place granted to humans on Roshar upon arrival from Ashyn. ). Whereas Nale was all about what is right. Nale thinks Roshar belongs to the Singers hence humans should just confine themselves to Shinovar or leave Roshar completely and find another suitable uninhabited planet for humans' survival.
Regarding Odium tricking Ishar..... When Odium came to the Rosharan system, Honor & Cultivation were the Gods of the singers and there was no way for Odium to curropt the system with his power unless he introduces his agents into the physical world. Hence he had to bring humans from Ashyn to Roshar in the first place ( Im also sure its through Odium Ashyn humans also first accessed Shadesmar). Thus he corrupted Ishar by introducing Voidbinding to Ashyn magic system corrupting it ( mostly it will be something similiar to the prevailing system in Ashyn like Everstorm to Highstorm etc ) and thus causes the surgebinding process to overload and cause its destruction.
Could there be some sort of exchange going on with Ishar's Tukari and the spren that enables his experiments? In the trial scene Adolin feels Maya's pain when she's in great distress and gives her strength in return that reanimates her somehow (though Blended notes that her eyes are still scratched out.
These Tukari seem to be deliberately putting spren in extreme pain/distress and it is presumably connected to Ishar's experiments. Maybe extreme pain/emption is the first requirement for a Odium-based Nahel bond type of thing (Give me your pain), and these Ishar is trading his Tukari's Identity/strength to manifest these spren physically somehow.
Their faces being shrouded in shadow (with eyes hard to glimpse) reminds me of the scratched out eyes of deadeyes, and I see a theme with shrouded eyes and loss of Identity throughout the series.
One thing I was just tossing around in my head is that Ishar was talking about reforging the Oathpact. The heralds might not have to be the ones who swear the Oathpact itself. Why can't our main POV characters make up the new Oathpact if needed? Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, Lyft, Dalinar, Renarin(?), 4 others from the back 5 books? Not sure.
I think the Oathpact will be reforged but will allow for replacements
That’s what I was thinking, there’s going to be 10 main viewpoints that each represent a radiant order so it seems very likely
Why would you want to rely on that broken plan? It was a crack idea in the first place lol. They HAVE to find a better solution. Like... Deal with Odium and then make peace with the Singers.
Grace is my spirit animal.
Also, after watching Shardcast After Dark, I firmly believe Grace should constantly be drinking when she does Shardcast.
Where did you watch it?
@@Sheija You have to be a patreon to access it. But it's absolutely worth it.
The shrouded face thing reminds me of the soldiers in Kholinar, personally
You know... I'm listening to this just today, Tress being the last Cosmere book I've read - and when Grace mentions that midnight essence is in Stormlight I was super surprised. I had completely forgotten that it's referenced in Stormlight at all! There's a ton of videos out there about Cosmere connections in Tress, now I want to see if we can find more Tress connections in the rest of the Cosmere, haha
Eric! I'm thrilled to see you and your wife overlord cosmereing it out
Syl and other Honor spren can reshape their clothes with stormlight in Shadesmar. Presumably, an Honorspren could transform their clothes to be, well, skin? Or not clothes? Their clothes are changeable at least, meaning they aren’t super strongly tied to their existence in Shadesmar
I think Spren that are pulled fully to the Physical are able to use their associated Surges and that might be part of the reason Ishar wants to do it.
Or maybe Ishars insanity has him finding his own all powerful army to defeat the singers or even for the coming shard wars...
He thinks himself a god, coupled with honors powers and his human fragility, he could see himself taking up Odiums cause as honors medium.
Great ambition - great passion - door for Odium?
I think Ishar wants to learn to drag cognitive beings into the physical realm so he can learn to drag physical beings into the spirtual realm and keep them alive.
What if ishar is pulling spren to the physical realm as a proof that you can move people between realms against there will, so that he can pull a spiritual being to the physical realm ie. Odium. I don’t think it’s likely but I could understand him making that connection. That way he could could fight odium himself
Could Ishar bring the Stormfather into the physical realm?
Possibly as part of taking Honor's power for himself?
Or maybe an Unmade to kill it permanently?
28:21 I'm pretty sure I know where this is going...
Who caused the destruction of Ashyn?
It's been Ishar all along
Who put the Skybreakers in action?
It's been Ishar all along
He's a powerful Bondsmith
In Tukar he's a God-King
He's a Herald who thinks he's God
But it's possible (it's possible)
Possible, possible
That Dalinar can restore his sanity
And stop everything from going wrong
It's been Ishar, crazy Ishar
It's been Ishar all along
"And I'm doing some weird sh*t with spren too"
Yes I listened to Agatha All Along again and spent way too long making this
One interesting note about Syl's ROW chapter icon is that she's wearing a flowery dress and a backpack. I don't think she's capable of creating those out of her spren form as of the end of ROW. Post 5th ideal maybe. However I find it odd for her to create a backpack out of her non-corporeal form that probably can't hold anything. This makes me wonder if she is actually physical in the future and able to carry a real backpack. Which leads me to wonder about the spren experiments... yikes indeed.
Faces perpetually in Shadow = faceless immortals
Ishar is supposed to teach Dalinar to use his powers, but Dalinar isent the only bondsmith. I think it makes alot of sense to have Navani learn from ishar to bondsmith free Dalinar after he fails the challenge of champions.
Evgeni: "... Frost crystallizing a glyph ..."
Me: but Frost is on Yolen! ... Oh, right, Evgeni's native language uses fewer prepositions than English.
Speaking of the glyphs appearing thing ... Is no one else reminded of Navani's creating a burning glyph of Justice when she thought Dalinar had been betrayed to his death? Who's a bigger betrayer than Ishar, who left Taln to literally millennia of torment?
Ishar is my new favorite character after seeing him in RoW. I was so excited for this one.
1:34:25 near here: What if he Ishar has Connected himself to the spiritual realm so he has the effects of atium at all times? Like he can't fully see the future, but he is Connected to it. This would also give him reason to think that he's the new Almighty (even if he's just crazy).
1:56:32 this seems related to awakening with the more human the objects the better it would work
I think that the plan is to reforge the oathpact but with new heralds. Reforging the oathpact with the same heralds wouldn't work because the current herald are warped and will break very quickly, also Jerizen is dead and i think that it needs all 10. The main body of the oathpact is still there and that new heralds will the oath to hold back the fused (for now).
Reforging does not prevent the addition of new material to replace the rusted parts.
I remembered the deaths, but probably only because I've read the first book 10+ times >.>
Awesome Friday night surprise!
Thanks Eric for giving me something easy to comment for engagement! 😂 And uh yeah I definitely *don't* remember anything about The 10 Deaths 😂
About Ulim and the point about odium sending him to tempt and manipulate Venli...
Do we know how old Ulim is? He knows the heralds intimately and his form is human.
Could he have been the original spren form that Odium sent to Ishar on Ashyn to tempt him? Ishars first spren that he abandoned for honor and his honorblade with the type of abilities that he was experienced with?
Also relating to the idea of Odiums original plans on Ashyn and the system in general,
He would have had to be the one to introduce the surges to Ashyn wouldnt he?
As the other shards were coexisting on Roshar. I dont think ive ever come across anything saying that they had influence on any other planet.
Im assuming his intention was to weaponize the Ashynites to attack roshar, killing the shards for breaking the shardic oath of non cohabitation while also forging an overall force for the future shardic wars.
So i think he came to ashyn, laid out base surges, tricked Ishar.
Then he either planned to destroy Ashyn and go to Roshar or the destruction wasnt entirely planned but ended up with the result he wanted anyway, them on Roshar as his mobile invested army to infect, as he never weakened himslef enough to truly invest in a planet pre-oathpact.
All this time have been delays to his plans while Rayse slowly lost it. The last part of his plan slipping away. Cue Taravangian to refuel and redirect Odiums overall goal.
congratulations Eric!
My favorite hour of the week :)
Tukari in shadow---
Could that be a cross over magic? Maybe their breaths were taken? In the regular world they would look grey, in shadesmare they might be shadowy and less distinctive.
Then maybe breaths are given to spren that being pulled into physical form?
Maybe the connection crap that Ishar does to the Tukari is used to give the spren a physical body, as giving enough human connection to something shapes them into a human form
Here's a thought - All the Heralds keep insisting that Ishar is sane and great. Ishar somehow got back in everyone's good graces after his actions led to the destruction of Ashyn. Ishar has people worshiping him as a god. What if this is just a Connection-hack? We know from the Mistborn Ars Arcanum that Connection can help you make friends. What if Ishar is using Connection with other people to make them think of him as sane/wise/benevolent/etc?
I think fortune is just Brandon speak for probability manipulation. I think access to fortune is just understanding probability to the degree of predicting the future.
Not much to add but wanted to give y'all the algorithm bump. In the spirit of wholesomely disagreeing with each other, Weiry had a point about the Storm father saying "this is impossible" with bringing spren to physical realm. Didnt he have similar feelings about what Dalinar did in communicating with Kaladin outside Urithiru?
Regarding the people with their faces shadowed in shadesmar...
Couldn´t it just be that they have a Lightweaver that put an ilusion on their faces.
As we know the ilusions can be put on a sphere and people can carry it so the Lightweaver could be in the phisical realm without worrying being caught
Oops I meant to comment earlier but take this UA-cam Algorithm Bonus. This was a fun shardcast, cool wtccs too
does anyone else get that maybe with some shanagens ishar bound honor and then broke the oath and lead to honors shattering due to odiums influence?
1 A.M. crank theory hours after watching this, and drinking a bit: Ishar can't experiment on dead-eyes, as they already have a defined form in the physical realm as shardblades, while living shardblades have mutable forms. He seems to be trying to give existences that don't exist in a realm a place. He needs some connection to all 3 realms, so maybe he is trying to strengthen his connection to both the physical AND spiritual realm, which would allow him to move between realms at will (with or without the creating a Perpendicularity), or even let him survive in a world were the realms have been collapsed/merged.
Edit: not to mention, if the plan was to leave, then someone would just need to point him to Vasher. So many others are already trying to find ways for a cognitive shadow to leave a world, and Vasher is just there existing and able to travel.
Skyward, Starsight, Cytonic, Svrakiss.
On the point about how the shards can manipulate humans and the requirements to do that. Isn’t the way that the Sibling communicated with mentally unstable people in Urithiru similar to what Ruin did on Scadrial? If it is, that could represent further evidence for the idea that mental instability can damage the spirit web, and that damage can be used as some sort of conduit more easily by shards and or beings with access to large amounts of investiture.
I’m pretty sure your right, Kelsier was only able to communicate with unstable people after he died and radiants normally have some sort of mental problem
I think the answer to Ishar fucking up Ashyn lies in what Raboniel told Venli before the invation of Urithiru
Venli asked Raboniel how could they beat the Radiants if they had 2 surges per Radiant while the Fused only had 1
Raboniel´s answer was that Fused could master their one Surge to a level that Radiants could never get because of having 2
What if in Ashyn human Surgebinding was like Fused Surgebinding, with only 1 Surge per Radiant
And somehow Ishar, guided by Odium, discovered how to hack the system and use more than 1
Ashyn might´ve been a planet in which Investiture was easier to come by and so Ishar´s experiments led to for example; someone with the Surge of Division to go NUCLEAR and fuck up the planet somehow, after all its described as a burning hellscape
Then Odium followed the Ashynites to Roshar where Honor seeing tha danger of the UNBOUND Surges made the rules for the 10 orders of Knights Radiants so that what happenned at Ashyn wouldn´t happen to Roshar
Yeah I totally forgot about the ten deaths
Yeah, totally forgot about the 10 deaths. Did Brandon forget also?
I remember the ten deaths hehe... Take that algorithm!!
Reforming the oath pack isn’t a solution. The purpose of the everstorm was a endround the oathpack or the fuse would have been back after book one. Also lezrean was returned the the old oathpack way and I remembered him asking has there even been a everstorm i came back so quick.
What if Ishar bonds (or has bonded) an unmade using his bondsmith shenanigans.
My favourite Harold!!!!
Ishar is terrifying
Ishar can be a Blightweaver in Yolen terms.
GO RASARR
Full Spoilers for book 5 here. Great work guys!
The nope pact
"Sprensperiments" if you will.
26:00 What makes you think that Ishar screwed up? He failed, but he may have had good reasons.
35:30 If you want control over Ashyn, you should not destroy it
41:40 They were oathbreakers
32:30 So Honor gave them weapons, superhuman bodies on each return to get them out of the way?
44:30 Honor cannot lie about an oath. How many volunteers will you get for millenia of torture?
51:30 They fought on Ashyn. Why would they stop just because they went to a new planet?
53:00 It sounds that there are more than 10 Surges and Ishar disabled some of them on Roshar. You can get all of them only on Ashyn.
56:00 The sentence is compatible with blocking some Surges from the Rosharans
1:52:30 But Honor is just not lieing around. How do you take up what you do not have?
1:53:00 Exactly. He could test this on temporary Cognitive Shadows. No need to test on sentient spren.
2:02:00 But the Fused cannot leave either. And if that were the issue he could start with animal spren.
2:07:00 What makes you think that a spren has a spiritual component going to the Beyond at all?
Late to the party, and I didn't read if this is already been commented..... But- Ishar's madness has him thinking Dalinar is evil/Odium. What if the same madness has him thinking the radiants are also evil? Is that why he told Nael to kill them? Is he bringing spren to the physical realm because he sees THEM as his army of knights radiant?
It really bugs me that kelsiers fortnite skin has the scars going the wrong way