@@arbaros22266 My teacher also didn't allow stickers to mark position changes. Without any visual aid, you are forced to learn how to feel where your fingers need to go. Bonuses: 1. Sight-reading is easy because you just look at the music and don't have to move your gaze from sheet to finger board. 2. You're never the idiot who makes the entire orchestra have to redo a passage because you weren't looking at the conductor. 3. You are easily aware of other musicians because your focus isn't consumed with your hands. Play with your ears, not your eyes. The head position probably plays a part, but guitar players also look at their fingers.
@@478cookies Wow, thank you for your answer! I usually either practice in front of a mirror or the sheet music, so mabe I could try it with nothing. Makes sense, thank you again for the advice!
So now I know: • The trick to the piano is to never look at your fingers or the piano. • The trick to the violin is to look at your fingers and the violin. I guess that's actually correct but being a pianist before I played the violin I carried on not looking! 😄
There is no such thing like never Look at the Piano. At least If you are not sight reading, but even then, you actually should Look If you are Not Sure (Big jumps, strange chords ect.)
@@superkalifragilistisch6511 No. It takes a long time for the visual cortex to make sense of what it's seeing - around 300 ms, which is ages in music. If you're sight-reading then look down to find a note or to position a hand, there'll be a huge delay and the resulting rhythm will be lumpy. You won't notice it at the time because that's how the brain works - it can't see this delay. However, if you listen to a recording then you'll notice it. (You CAN look, but only in a planned and carefully coordinated way. This is quite easily done when playing entirely from memory. Maybe this is what you mean?). So what to do instead? Feel - use touch sensing - like a blind person. And also have a better model of the keyboard. And train your cerebellum to find the notes without you needing to look. It's quite amazing what it can do. You can even sit facing backwards and find keys accurately behind you without looking. It takes about a year of not looking to get that far, playing piano concertos etc. To be clear: I'm trying to help people get to professional level. Of course you can look at the keys if you want to. But apart from the lumpiness, one day you'll look back at the score and you'll have lost your place! 😄 And you really can't keep your eyes on both hands and the conductor for more advanced music.
For the second one, he didn’t mess up. That 9th stretch using your 2nd and 4th fingers is hard. He should practice it more or change the notes like some players do to make sure it’s in tune
Again…. Not something a cellist can every have the luxury of… looking at fingers… it’s concentration maybe but dude we who play with an orchestra in public as a soloist should not neeeeed to look at our fingers 😙
This just highlights that Eddy needed to specifically prepare the role of a soloist even for things like untraining your orchestra member instinct to look up at the conductor. Also, this wasn't even his concert!
eh??? when i was a young [classical] bass player i was taught to play IN THE DARK. we had one practice room we called the echo chamber, and when i got it i would turn out the lights and play in THE DARK and play better than otherwise, all by pure instinct if this guy needs to see where his fingers are going he does NOT know his fingerboard like he ought to purely by feel and muscle memory is how it ought to be, thus freeing the eyes to actually do what makes him slip up, that is to follow the conductor
Interesting, I always also felt my intonation was better in technical passages when looking at my left hand. I guess it’s much harder to pull off 100% of the time while being a soloist in a violin piece with orchestral accompaniment.
The conductor and the orchestra will do their best to follow you! Focus on yourself on difficult passages, but once its easier, you are free to look at the conductor
A help for memorizing. Concentrate and memorize every measure, every measure as fresh as the first measure. Nobody mistakes the first bar. And this is Heifetz advice for memorizing - Look at the music before go to bed.
As a accompanist.... don't look at the conductor at the tricky bit! 😂 (but do look at the conductor often!) (But not at the page turn. Stupid page turn.)
maybe it is the switching back and forth that trips you up and you would be better of either always looking at your fingers or never looking at your fingers
Indeed! I think Eddy properly shifts his focus / attention onto the conductor. "What's the conductor doing? What piece is that? What's it got to do with me? What am I doing? I don't know! Help!!!! 😮". I can do that too! 😂😂😂
To me there are several explanations. First of all, even if Brett and Eddy are seasoned violinists, they are not soloists so they lack the experience that Ray, who's been performing as a soloist for a long time, has. Second, it was kind of a last minute decision to add Eddy's solo performance to the concert. He had a very short amount of time to learn the piece (something like 2 or 3 weeks if I remember correctly), which is quite tricky for a piece as difficult as La Campanella. And third, they explained later that Eddy was able to practice only one time with the orchestra before the concert, which is why he wasn't very at ease during the performance and his communication with the conductor wasn't the best. But anyway, even if his rendition was far from perfect, it was really cool that they decided to prepare this surprise for their fans, and everyone at the concert was extremely happy to listen to his performance with the orchestra So in my eyes it's the thing that really counts, that everybody was very happy with the concert, including TwoSet. 😊
it might be a transitioning thing. he probably had to look at a conductor when he was in orchestra for years. but now he has to look at his fingers because the piece is that difficult and as the soloist he has the luxury of the conductor and orchestra following him but has not adjusted his instincts yet. i saw a video of eddy sightreading on piano and the more difficult the piece got, the more he switched his gaze between his fingers and music, the more he fumbled. i have that problem too but when i successfully fight my instinct to look at my hands, my sight reading improves.
I admittedly play at a much lower level, but I practice being able to play without looking at my fingerboard. That being said, I couldn’t do that with a new piece, only things I could play in my sleep.
Shouldn't the conductor conform to the soloist as much as possible? I understand there are key moments during which soloist and conductor must come together, but I expect those kinds of details would be settled during rehearsal. Otherwise it should be the conductor who follows the soloist. Maybe they didn't have enough time to rehearse?
Eddy is overconfident all the time and Ray let him knows. Eddy is an average violinist at most. But a 4million population city makes him a internet celebrity.
Great question! What happens is there’s mutual listening that goes on between conductor and soloist, especially when the passage is in motion. There have been times when I had to deliberately get into the sight-line of the conductor but only as a last resort to avoid falling out of alignment. Another important skill soloists have is creating rhythmic clarity and intention with their sound. A lot of it has to do with being very intentional in your phrasing and not second-guess yourself! It all comes with practice and experience.
This example definitely betrays the lack of Eddy's experience as a soloist and to his training in orchestra to prioritize ensemble over the solo performance. He needs more soloists opportunities!
Why do you think? There’s a clear difference in posture that just makes it impossible for the cellist to look at their fingers in the lower positions. However in the higher positions, cellists tend to lean forward over the instrument and look at their hands and fingers plenty for difficult passages.
Yeah, even in orchestra there are always 2 ways to go. Either you glance at the score and switch your focus constantly between score and conductor (which is harder), or you learn to look at the score while still being aware of the conductors movement (which is pretty easy in comparison). If you're the conductor the last choice isn't an option though. What I find interesting is how they still look at the instrument, I'm a brass player, so that's never a need, but still, I know that a lot of people play the piano completely without looking (in fact, art tatum was blind and did crazy strides, which classical pianists probably couldn't do, even on the virtuoso caliber)
as a bassist, you’ve gotta just memorize where your fingers should go because bass lines rely heavily on tempo (looking at the conductor) and cues (looking at your music/the conductor) so looking at your fingers really only applies for violinists and violists 😅
During rests ( but soloist and conductor learn what to expect from each other and as with every part in an orchestra/choir its the cue points that are important communication times) Never during tricky bits, if you as a soloist fluffs up the conductor is there to get everyone back in sync.
Reaction videos are an established format on UA-cam by now, TwoSet is doing the same type of videos a lot. I would imagine that Rays feedback is actually great for Eddy.
Yeah I’m wondering why he ever thought it was ok to make this. But he does act a bit strange in the videos with twoset so I don’t see it as out of character.
Why not make a video? Ray is Eddy's real life friend (unlike you, who doesnt know either of them personally) I'm sure Eddy knowns how to take constructive cristism and musical tips from a friend. @@MiloMcCarthyMusic
@@vampedtone constructive criticism in a public video for hundreds of thousands of people if not millions? Constructive criticism is something you give subtly and privately. That was a weird reply to write, the fact that I’m not friends with either of them has unbelievably little relevance
U judging but you have been crunching your sound a lot due to slipping on your bowing technique. Made your caprice difficult to listen to man. Stop criticizing Eddy and work on that ❤
Two set fans are so sensitive when it comes to anyone talking about their playing... When did he ever criticize Eddy???? They are friends and he is giving feedback and tips from his own perspective. I'm sure even Eddy would agree it wasn't a great moment. Clear your head man and stop getting mad at everything.
🎻Visual focus can be a helpful intonation hack! Check out the full video here: ua-cam.com/video/mtd3L2DQwUI/v-deo.html
Ray just stopped himself from saying "so it would appear as if I were looking at the conductor"
Nice catch
Cello lesson #1: Never look at your fingers.
Why? I was wondering about this the other day. Because of the unnatural head position?
@@arbaros22266 My teacher also didn't allow stickers to mark position changes.
Without any visual aid, you are forced to learn how to feel where your fingers need to go. Bonuses: 1. Sight-reading is easy because you just look at the music and don't have to move your gaze from sheet to finger board. 2. You're never the idiot who makes the entire orchestra have to redo a passage because you weren't looking at the conductor. 3. You are easily aware of other musicians because your focus isn't consumed with your hands. Play with your ears, not your eyes.
The head position probably plays a part, but guitar players also look at their fingers.
@@arbaros22266 Muscle memory + does not look good in performance.
@@478cookies Guilty. :D
@@478cookies Wow, thank you for your answer! I usually either practice in front of a mirror or the sheet music, so mabe I could try it with nothing. Makes sense, thank you again for the advice!
Gotta keep your eyes on the music and your ears on the people next to you
there’s no music 😂😂
eddy is not using any music. soloists usually memorize but you wouldn’t know about that apparently
he said. Putting the conductor in line of sight. from what i hear... and good tip for all musicians, thank you❤❤
Probs coz he lost a comp for "Not looking at the pianist enough". Childhood fears coming back to haunt him lol!
The habit to play in a professional orchestra.
😅
So now I know:
• The trick to the piano is to never look at your fingers or the piano.
• The trick to the violin is to look at your fingers and the violin.
I guess that's actually correct but being a pianist before I played the violin I carried on not looking! 😄
?
My piano teacher let me get rid of the "never look" rule when the pieces started requiring hand jumps or extended arpeggios for multiple octaves
There is no such thing like never Look at the Piano. At least If you are not sight reading, but even then, you actually should Look If you are Not Sure (Big jumps, strange chords ect.)
@@superkalifragilistisch6511 No. It takes a long time for the visual cortex to make sense of what it's seeing - around 300 ms, which is ages in music. If you're sight-reading then look down to find a note or to position a hand, there'll be a huge delay and the resulting rhythm will be lumpy. You won't notice it at the time because that's how the brain works - it can't see this delay. However, if you listen to a recording then you'll notice it. (You CAN look, but only in a planned and carefully coordinated way. This is quite easily done when playing entirely from memory. Maybe this is what you mean?).
So what to do instead? Feel - use touch sensing - like a blind person. And also have a better model of the keyboard. And train your cerebellum to find the notes without you needing to look. It's quite amazing what it can do. You can even sit facing backwards and find keys accurately behind you without looking. It takes about a year of not looking to get that far, playing piano concertos etc.
To be clear: I'm trying to help people get to professional level. Of course you can look at the keys if you want to. But apart from the lumpiness, one day you'll look back at the score and you'll have lost your place! 😄 And you really can't keep your eyes on both hands and the conductor for more advanced music.
Lol same. Although I do look at my hands at the piano, but I never look at my LH on the violin lol sigh.
Masterclass with Ray Chen weeks before the performance would be a nice content.
Oh Eddy.. poor guy, he really tried so hard
I still respect him a lot 😄✨️
For the second one, he didn’t mess up. That 9th stretch using your 2nd and 4th fingers is hard. He should practice it more or change the notes like some players do to make sure it’s in tune
Guess as a former orchestral player Eddy is used to looking at the conductor. Now he needs to let the conductor follow him.
I actually really like this short form format , nice 👌
Don't look at conductor guys, just play and ignore the tempo
Again…. Not something a cellist can every have the luxury of… looking at fingers… it’s concentration maybe but dude we who play with an orchestra in public as a soloist should not neeeeed to look at our fingers 😙
My teacher would break my neck if I saw the fretboard
This just highlights that Eddy needed to specifically prepare the role of a soloist even for things like untraining your orchestra member instinct to look up at the conductor. Also, this wasn't even his concert!
Thanks
Look at the conductor in your peripheral vision when playing difficult pieces🥴
eh???
when i was a young [classical] bass player i was taught to play IN THE DARK.
we had one practice room we called the echo chamber, and when i got it i would turn out the lights and play in THE DARK and play better than otherwise, all by pure instinct
if this guy needs to see where his fingers are going he does NOT know his fingerboard like he ought to
purely by feel and muscle memory is how it ought to be, thus freeing the eyes to actually do what makes him slip up, that is to follow the conductor
Good musician doesn't use eyes
Develop technique yiu can rely on consistently. You should be able to look up if you memorize the piece.
What is the piece
Chacun sa manière.
do people really look at the violin while playing??? guess I've been doing it wrong lol
I only look at the sheet music, can't play from memory
Bruh is it me or now ray has an American accent and not his Australian accent 😂 this is not to hate I’m just saying is it just me or???
He did live in America since he was 15
We play music in different ways (Bach vs Tchaikovksy etc), so why not talk in different ways too!
👍🏼
Just play BASS instead lol😅😅
🎻
Ray: Don't look at the conductor
Every conductor: NOOOOOOOO!!!
The trick is that if you mess up, *glare* at the conductor so that the audience thinks it's his fault and not yours!
Genius
That's EVIL
Interesting, I always also felt my intonation was better in technical passages when looking at my left hand. I guess it’s much harder to pull off 100% of the time while being a soloist in a violin piece with orchestral accompaniment.
mundo
Hand eye coordination is a massive boost
ok but is nobody going to talk ab how ray just casually nailed that passage when he was explaining Eddie’s slip up-
You write as if Ur gay
He was looking at the volin and is a highly skilled pro himself. It would be blasphemous if he fails like that!
I'm good for Threeset Violin. Really starting to like Ray Chen's personality as much as his amazing playing.
The conductor and the orchestra will do their best to follow you! Focus on yourself on difficult passages, but once its easier, you are free to look at the conductor
This is why I find violinists like Vengerov and Kennedy so amazing because they play with their eyes shut 😂
It's good advice . Look at your fingers.
Heifetz taught same to his student.
"Look at your fingers"
Yeah but Perlman didn't do it so there's no definitive rule.
@H.Pierre0 You are right.
I saw Perlman was looking at fingers when he was young though.
@user-op6vy3gg2b he found his style with age
I would really love a video about how to memorize music so this is possible! 😅
A help for memorizing. Concentrate and memorize every measure, every measure as fresh as the first measure. Nobody mistakes the first bar.
And this is Heifetz advice for memorizing - Look at the music before go to bed.
You rehearse every bar thousand times and you cannot not memorize
As a accompanist.... don't look at the conductor at the tricky bit! 😂 (but do look at the conductor often!) (But not at the page turn. Stupid page turn.)
Maybe that’s why he makes comedic videos on UA-cam for money - because he’s no Ray Chen. 😮
BRO NEEDS TO PRACICE MORE
Yeah, he probably only did 39h that day 😅
But like how am I the opposite? I mess up when I start looking at my fingers😂
same ahah I never look at my own fingers. I just have to practice a lot to feel out the muscle memory
ME hahaha samee
maybe it is the switching back and forth that trips you up and you would be better of either always looking at your fingers or never looking at your fingers
But why would I look at my fingers while playing? What is there to see?
At this point, I don't understand Eddy. I was first chair Violist many times, and you see the conductor out of the corner of your eye.
Indeed! I think Eddy properly shifts his focus / attention onto the conductor. "What's the conductor doing? What piece is that? What's it got to do with me? What am I doing? I don't know! Help!!!! 😮".
I can do that too! 😂😂😂
To me there are several explanations.
First of all, even if Brett and Eddy are seasoned violinists, they are not soloists so they lack the experience that Ray, who's been performing as a soloist for a long time, has.
Second, it was kind of a last minute decision to add Eddy's solo performance to the concert. He had a very short amount of time to learn the piece (something like 2 or 3 weeks if I remember correctly), which is quite tricky for a piece as difficult as La Campanella.
And third, they explained later that Eddy was able to practice only one time with the orchestra before the concert, which is why he wasn't very at ease during the performance and his communication with the conductor wasn't the best.
But anyway, even if his rendition was far from perfect, it was really cool that they decided to prepare this surprise for their fans, and everyone at the concert was extremely happy to listen to his performance with the orchestra
So in my eyes it's the thing that really counts, that everybody was very happy with the concert, including TwoSet. 😊
it might be a transitioning thing. he probably had to look at a conductor when he was in orchestra for years. but now he has to look at his fingers because the piece is that difficult and as the soloist he has the luxury of the conductor and orchestra following him but has not adjusted his instincts yet.
i saw a video of eddy sightreading on piano and the more difficult the piece got, the more he switched his gaze between his fingers and music, the more he fumbled. i have that problem too but when i successfully fight my instinct to look at my hands, my sight reading improves.
I'll be lasering away those strings if I ever tried that 😂
Ray is the teacher of the teachers. The Sensei to Twoset. ❤ love this guy so much.
I admittedly play at a much lower level, but I practice being able to play without looking at my fingerboard.
That being said, I couldn’t do that with a new piece, only things I could play in my sleep.
Shouldn't the conductor conform to the soloist as much as possible? I understand there are key moments during which soloist and conductor must come together, but I expect those kinds of details would be settled during rehearsal. Otherwise it should be the conductor who follows the soloist.
Maybe they didn't have enough time to rehearse?
Eddy is overconfident all the time and Ray let him knows. Eddy is an average violinist at most. But a 4million population city makes him a internet celebrity.
such a bad conductor, causing the soloist to miss notes
👍🤣
I wnat to mess up like Eddy does...Hahahahaja
this is why i like jazz. you just listen to the drums who is hopefully listening to the bass.
hi Ray, what shoulder rest are you using? it looks weird. I don't think i've ever seen it
Never look at the conductor. Got it. Thanks Ray!
As a violinist, it depends on the player. For example, if I know a song by memory, I look at the conductor as it helps me stay in rhythm.
How do you read the music looking at your left hand the whole time??
So… do you just ignore the conductor? Does he still need their guidance if he isn’t supposed to watch them?
Great question! What happens is there’s mutual listening that goes on between conductor and soloist, especially when the passage is in motion.
There have been times when I had to deliberately get into the sight-line of the conductor but only as a last resort to avoid falling out of alignment.
Another important skill soloists have is creating rhythmic clarity and intention with their sound. A lot of it has to do with being very intentional in your phrasing and not second-guess yourself! It all comes with practice and experience.
@@RayChenViolinistTotally GREAT answer! This really needs to be understood much better. I love the idea of "mutual listening". Beautiful!
This example definitely betrays the lack of Eddy's experience as a soloist and to his training in orchestra to prioritize ensemble over the solo performance. He needs more soloists opportunities!
conductor is the most useless one in orchestra
Wait did he look up
Im learning the cello so why does violinist look at their fingers and cellist never looks at their fingers?
Why do you think? There’s a clear difference in posture that just makes it impossible for the cellist to look at their fingers in the lower positions. However in the higher positions, cellists tend to lean forward over the instrument and look at their hands and fingers plenty for difficult passages.
That laser focus thing 🔥
Lesson learned never look at the conductor
"it would appear as I was looking at the conductor, even though I actually wasn't" hahahaha I'm dying
It's all very educational for all of us but I wonder if Eddy actually likes that you highlight his mistakes so publicly on UA-cam.
If he moved to Liverpool would be do a scouse accent? What about New Zealand, when does it become racist?
Yeah, even in orchestra there are always 2 ways to go. Either you glance at the score and switch your focus constantly between score and conductor (which is harder), or you learn to look at the score while still being aware of the conductors movement (which is pretty easy in comparison). If you're the conductor the last choice isn't an option though. What I find interesting is how they still look at the instrument, I'm a brass player, so that's never a need, but still, I know that a lot of people play the piano completely without looking (in fact, art tatum was blind and did crazy strides, which classical pianists probably couldn't do, even on the virtuoso caliber)
What strings do you use?
Flutists and Violinists have the same ego: it’s about us. Never look at anyone. Just pay attention to yourself. 😂😂😂😂
as a bassist, you’ve gotta just memorize where your fingers should go because bass lines rely heavily on tempo (looking at the conductor) and cues (looking at your music/the conductor) so looking at your fingers really only applies for violinists and violists 😅
It's not about where he's looking, it's about the gap in his concentration. Have to know the piece well enough that you can afford those gaps.
Maybe he’s looking at the conductor because he’s making the mistake. Looking for solace.
Мне на сложных моментах наоборот лучше не смотреть на свою левую руку, потому что если я буду на неё смотреть, я обязательно запутаюсь
Not enough practice thats what. Sorry
Ray Chen always plays perfectly even when he’s demonstrating something. Sounds just like a recording
Eddy just needs to practice. He's woefully undercooked.
might be his glasses - bi focals?
Eddy's way too young to be needing bifocals
@@oxoelfoxo Your to kind but he's been wearing glasses his entire life.
@@dvillebenny1445 yep but you need bifocals when you're in your 40s or later
Imagine having to look at your fingers lmao
But when do you look at conductor?
During rests ( but soloist and conductor learn what to expect from each other and as with every part in an orchestra/choir its the cue points that are important communication times) Never during tricky bits, if you as a soloist fluffs up the conductor is there to get everyone back in sync.
That's why his teacher told him to always look at his contact point, but he doesn't listen 🤷♀️
He forgot to practice 40 h a day
Uhhh… you’re overexplaining the concept of LUFU. 🤷🏼♂️ It’s a well-known phenomenon. 🤣😆
Yeh - maybe you're right! 🙂
LUFU?
no wonder my teacher kept telling me to look at my fingers😂
Love these guys' banter
"азиат знает лучше чем азиат" Дин Лижэнь
Practice with a mirror!
❤
Sorry to ask, what is the piece?
Paganini - la Campanella
Play what you feel
I feel like it's very awkward to be using a friend's slip-ups for UA-cam videos. But maybe Eddy was fine with it beforehand, who knows!
Reaction videos are an established format on UA-cam by now, TwoSet is doing the same type of videos a lot. I would imagine that Rays feedback is actually great for Eddy.
Yeah I’m wondering why he ever thought it was ok to make this. But he does act a bit strange in the videos with twoset so I don’t see it as out of character.
@@MiloMcCarthyMusic twoset gave him permission in the past iirc so its probably fine
Why not make a video? Ray is Eddy's real life friend (unlike you, who doesnt know either of them personally) I'm sure Eddy knowns how to take constructive cristism and musical tips from a friend. @@MiloMcCarthyMusic
@@vampedtone constructive criticism in a public video for hundreds of thousands of people if not millions? Constructive criticism is something you give subtly and privately. That was a weird reply to write, the fact that I’m not friends with either of them has unbelievably little relevance
@4:18 Yeah, that “racial reckoning” really didn’t ‘reckon’ the way I thought it would. 😂
Hate eddy
He's adorable! 🥰
U judging but you have been crunching your sound a lot due to slipping on your bowing technique. Made your caprice difficult to listen to man. Stop criticizing Eddy and work on that ❤
Two set fans are so sensitive when it comes to anyone talking about their playing... When did he ever criticize Eddy???? They are friends and he is giving feedback and tips from his own perspective. I'm sure even Eddy would agree it wasn't a great moment. Clear your head man and stop getting mad at everything.
eddy go learn the piccolo