When To Apply Grain Filler And Sanding Sealer
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- In this video, I use scenarios to explain the different schedules when applying grain filler and sanding sealer on a guitar build. Timestamps for each scenario are listed below along with paid affiliate links.
00:00 Start
01:07 Finish Without Stain/Dye
04:10 Finish With Stain/Dye
08:32 Finish With Paint
Solarez ICBINL Grain Filler Sealer: amzn.to/2ZzB6Qb
Aqua Coat Grain Filler: amzn.to/3zVDkWJ
Crystalac Grain Filler: bit.ly/3m5RCPC
Crystalac Pigments: bit.ly/2ZEMGJP
TransTint Wood Dye: amzn.to/3ikYxU4
Keda Wood Dye: amzn.to/3mbIxEU - Навчання та стиль
Another in a long line of super helpful videos, thorough and well explained. Thanks, Chris!
I needed this videos 2 years ago...
I wish I had found this video about two months ago. It's probably the most helpful and best video for finishing I've found. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Really amazing tips! I loved the idea of timting sanding sealer to help with leveling. This also helps me figure out the order for dye fire my first go with a water heated grain filler.
Love the shirt! Great video breaking down the use of a sanding sealer. Wasn't entirely sure how they worked but I have no doubts now. I repair/restore furniture and have been struggling with a piece I am working on. Your video just solved my dilemma. Thanks for the great content 👍
I was JUST starting this process yesterday and having the same questions. Thank you so much!
I wish I had watched this video prior to my first adventure staining a body. Your videos on several topics have been so inspiring and helpful. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and being kind to those of us that are just getting started. P.S. we need a lion graphic t shirt!
Great years of experience told here and appreciated. EVERY WORD is proper and important. Thank you!
I just stumbled on to this channel , prior to a guitar build / funny how when the student is ready , the teacher will appear !!! awesome channel learned about Brite Tone here !!
Great information here! I recommend to anyone who wants to remember this write up a chart on a piece of paper and copy over the information from the video so you'll always have a quick, physical reference to it if needed.
Very good information. The best on guitar finishing I’ve seen. Thanks!
Probably the best resource I’ve seen regarding guitar finishes - and I actually understand it! Another great video, Chris.
Yep. Been watching since he was using a workmate and a belt sander. He's helped all of us a ton!!
I agree whole heartedly - Chris is very generous with helpful research and trials info - and he takes a lot of time to make these videos.
@@jeffhall5888 I think a workmate is a top-ten essential shop tool! lol
Chris you are awesome brother. That was very helpful in helping me understand how to go about finishing guitar.
Great video. Achieving a "professional" grade finish is absolutely my most challenging part of guitar building, this was helpful thank you!.
Great advice before i tackle my first dye and finish
This is great, Chris! Now I have a better understanding of what I need to do on a couple of upcoming guitar projects
Thanks for the info. I just bought a kit and am dreaming up the finish.
Great tips, Chris. The general theme here (aside from using the right materials/process for each job) is patience. It's free, but for me it's always in such short supply!
Also, nice save at the 10:05 mark :)
so helpful. awesome video. thank you!
Great lesson and show, thank you.
Great tip on the primer colors👊🏻
Very well explained.
Awesome video. Makes we want to make a dozen guitar bodies to try every combination.
Perfect, succinct, clear advice - as ever! Cheers!🎸🎸
Thanks for an informative video.
I'm using StewMac products, and have been puzzling over the fact that the grain filler says "for best results first apply 1-2 coats of sanding sealer". On the sanding sealer it says "apply over grain filler to lock in grain filler and seal the wood."
Nothing like contradictory product labels. Your scenarios pointed me in the right direction.
Thanks for share! Great information!
Thanks, I've been searching for how to grain fill a stained finish 😀
Great video!
Thanks for all those explanations. I'm just getting into this and it can be quite confusing. This video is a good reference. I'm sure I will watch it several times...
Glad to hear it!
Very educational thank you!
Thanks , very helpful
Great video
I'm getting ready to paint a body. This was a helpful video.
And yes, always test on scrap. Super important idea that I've learned the hard way.
Thanks for the insight. I have not seen this information any place else
Glad it was helpful!
Wonderful explanation of the process. I wish you would have demonstrated your explanation as you went. thanks for the informative video, it answered some questions I have.
Hi there. Thank you so much for all your videos! They are so helpful. In episode 121 you applied a tinted grain filler on the back of the guitar before you stained the wood with tinted gelstain but here you suggest using a sealer first before staining without the gel medium and then a sealer to lock it in and then clear grain fill. I could use a little clarification, please. Thanks again for your all you do for us.
There is no right or wrong way to do this type of finish. It all depends on the outcome you want. If you want to enhance the grain, use a tinted filler first and sand it back before staining with a gel stain. Gel stains give an even color since they don’t soak into end grain so easily. Regular stains are more absorbent and yield richer color, however, they can look blotchy if you don’t use a sealer first.
No love for shellac? It dries very quickly without need for a curing process, and gives additional piece of mind in the sense that it is compatible with every type of finish imaginable. Plus, you can advertise your guitar as having an organic, free-range all natural sanding sealer. XD
That aside, the SolarEZ Lacquer is great stuff. I even spray it on with a gun before curing, and it sands to a perfectly smooth surface with minimal effort. Only caveats are it does carry a light amber hue, and may not be compatible with all other finish products. Plus it can be a great clear and top coat for natural wood finishes in it's own right.
I have a lot of trouble with the grain filler getting pulled out when I sand it. Could I improve this by adding shellac before the grain filler? Or are you saying to just use shellac as the grain filler? Thanks.
Great video yo. Thank you for clarifying the issue. As you said it depends. Excess filler when doing a solid colour (looks crap if preserving natural wood grain but prevents finish sinking). sealer to even out dye colouration. Also sealer to prevenient grain filler from sinking into grain when doing clear over wood. Please correct if spazzing. thanks again for the insight and enabling my misperceptions also for listing the products used
Will pass on UV cure filler when I find one in Australia. water based is a joke when it comes to shrinking
Also yeah nah. scrap wood is a god send. Remember to leave it for a month to see what's really going on
Also "baking" makes a huge difference in drying times ($20 foot heater run over finish) *colder varied climates having a heater makes a huge difference
Oh that shirt!!!!! Long live The Shape!
Love that shirt!!!
Amazing
In the past I've used 2K base polyurethane as a grain filler and I would often have problems with it shrinking and revealing grain pores through the high gloss topcoat. Even catalyzed polyurethanes tend to shrink over time just a little bit so I started using polyester which is nasty but works really well and doesn't shrink at all. Anyway, great tips as always!!
I have found that 2-4 coats of a high build sanding sealer keeps the 2k polyurethane from shrinking into the grain. And I use water-based 2k which shrinks back even more than solvent-based 2k.
@@HighlineGuitars which sanding sealer do you recommend to use under the 2K top coat when going for a natural finish?
@@solwinds6031 centurionwoodcoatings.com/product/cw-2001-high-build-clear-sanding-sealer/
Love your videos. I watch them all and always learn something from them.
On porous woods such as walnut and mahogany, can you apply Z-poxy directly to the sanded bare wood as an alternative to using pore wood filler and sanding sealer? My limited experience with Z-poxy is that it is not crystal clear and that it has somewhat of a warming tint.
Would there ever be a case when you would apply Z-poxy over a tight grained wood such as figured maple that you’ve dyed?
Thanks again for all that you do for the luthier community.
I did none of this. Just dye and finish. End result, lumpy blotchy garbage
Yeah😂 after 8 months with this garbage result, i ended up sanding it down back to almost barewood.
Too bad the ugly yellow sipped in the pores and seems.
Cant do natural now.
Now im using resin as pore filler. Looking grear
The old steel wool trick. Dull the gloss which makes the guitar less splotchy. Reapply and it worked perfectly fine for me. I did this in between every coat.
Thanks!
I just ran across this video. Fantastic. Straight to the point.
Thanks for the tip Lynn. Much appreciated!
Hi Chris, great video as usual.
I've heard the you have to respect the thinners of the sanding sealers and the paint you're using, in other words, you have to use water based sealer and water based paint or clear coats. Or thinner based sealers like nitro and nitro colors.
Somebody told me that if you use shellac(alcohol based) to seal the wood and then for example water based high gloss barnish, it will end up cracking the coats with time. I would love to hear your thoughts about that. Thanks for sharing so much knowledge!
I've sprayed water-based clears over shellac many times without issue. Water-based products are much more forgiving than solvent-based products and can be sprayed over just anything. With solvent-based products, you have to be careful about compatibility. One of the many reasons I switched to water-based is because I got tired of finish failures due to fussy compatibility.
Hi Chris. Great video. I have some pieces finished in danish oil, and others in oddies oil. Can i use an oil based grain filler, i jave rustins brand, over an oil finish? Please answer, i can't get a reply anywhere. Thanks again for the videos
Chris the hair looks good man! Takes off a few years!
I’m starting a mahogany thinline project with Tru-Oil. The body comes 300-grit sanded. I wanted to seal with shellac, grain-fill with brown-dye Aqua Coat and sand up to 400 before applying the Tru-Oil. Does it make sense ? I want to send the end grain to 600 to match the colour better.
Wish I would have seen this 1st. I bought a guitar kit. Sanded down body, stained and lacquered it. Some parts /areas on guitar, the finish looks amazing. But I never did any filler or sealer so lot of the grain is showing.
Any fix? I guess fully sand it all off and start over?
What grit sandpaper is used. I am doing a finish with the Keda Dye. Thank you.
Hey maybe you could think along with me here, I got red oak and grey oak and I wanna paint the red oak in a way so itll fit the grey oak, im thinking brownish or black, its gotta be solid color as the red oak has some spots where it has started to go bad i found after trueing it up today (I managed to with only a jointer to perfectly true the beams, all sides, pretty cool
Can I spray nitro directly onto the solarez grain filler without using the sanding sealer?
it is called a guide coat.. they make special paint for that.. lightly spray, then sand knocking down the high spots.. repeat till it all comes off even.
I covered the use of a guide coat in this video: ua-cam.com/video/jls0YHhCjTw/v-deo.html
I’m trying to get a really light blue stain. Like an ice blue. Any suggestions?
Chris, if I were a young man beginning my career again, I would beg to apprentice with you. Perhaps I'll be a pro builder in my retirement career ...(if I ever get there).
Would the process for the dye stain be the same as an oil based stain?
Very helpful video.
Do you remember the recipe for the stain you used in the video. Before too long I'm going to be staining a maple top and I really liked that color you used.
No, sorry
Liked for just the t-shirt to begin with.
Great videos-a big thank you! I’ve got a swamp ash strat body that I want to stain walnut.
What is your recommended Sanding Sealer product?
Centurion High Build Sanding Sealer.
with the first scenario do you sand the grain filler then apply the sealer ?
I see 3 grain fillers and tints/dyes listed above but no sanding sealer ?...
Another great video - thanks so much!!! Question - if I want to apply an oil based finish on a mahogany neck (like Boiled Linseed Oil), would I first apply a grain filler or would that throw off the absorption of the oil? Aiming for the non-gloss neck feel. Thanks!
My favorite way to fill the grain is to rub in the oil with 4F Pumice. If you can't get the pumice, you can also thin the oil with some mineral spirits and wet sand it in with 320-400 grit wet/dry sandpaper.
Soild info here guys!👍
Thanks for all the great videos! So if I'm using Solarenz grain filler sealer on mahogany, can I use it as both my grain filler and sanding sealer or should I use a separate sanding sealer? (prior to painting) Thanks
You can use it as both.
So, in a basic nutshell, before I decide to stain the Bear wood, I should use the Solarex ICBINL ?
So I just finished with the sanding sealer, sanding, and dying the body. There seems to be some shiny spots. Is this ok?
Is there an actual sanding sealer you recommend that will work with alcohol based dye.
Great video, but as I am not used to Solarez, I am confused with their Grain Filler/Sealer. It would work for both sanding sealer and grain filling? and their other product would work as a clear coat?
You can use the filler/sealer as both. It really depends on the wood. If it has an open pore structure like Mahogany or Ash, you can add 3M Micro Balloons to make it thicker for filling deep grain and pores. Other woods like Maple you can use it as a sealer without the micro balloons.
Chris, any suggestions on sanding grits from bare wood to finish? Also, I've heard dewaxed Shellac is a great grain enhancer. Would you apply it and if so, when? Thanks.
Start with the finest grit that will remove surface flaws and progress through every grit up to 400. Why 400? It's because the sanding scratches left by 400 are much harder to see as opposed to 320 or 220. I try to start at 150 and work up through 180, 220, 320, and finally 400. However, you may need to go lower depending on the condition of the wood after carving, routing, and drilling. Apply the dewaxed shellac after sanding to 400.
May i ask something, 4oz of Solarez is enough for 1 guitar only?
Would you apply grain filler to a dense wood like Alder? Great video!
You can, but I wouldn't.
What about if you're working with oak? I want to paint it orange. Do I need some kind of tannin blocker or would just the filler then sealer be OK?
If you're in doubt, use a tannin blocking sealer.
If I wanted to do a tung oil or danish oil finish on an ash burl veneer top, would I do the Solarez first like your stain process? Or oil first and then follow the first process as though i was doing bare wood? Thanks!
I don't like to use Solarez ICBINL with oil. The two don't stick well together. Instead, I mix a water-based light amber dye stain to replicate the look of oil and follow with the Solarez. Be sure to test on scrap with whatever finish you go with.
@@HighlineGuitars thank you! Is the ICBINL also not good with oil based stains then? I’m hoping to have my daughter use some wood stain touch up pens to draw a picture on the back of my guitar prior to staining and doing a clear coat. I’ve only seen those pens with oil based stains though, so am not sure if that will rule out my ability to use the ICBINL grain filler and finish?
Hi Chris, is the process of multiple coats of grain filler and sanding sealer applies to stained maple fingerboard too?
Not for me. I would never put that much stuff on a fretboard, especially stain.
@@HighlineGuitars would you recommend just clear coat after staining the maple fingerboard? Btw I’m planning a vintage yellowish stain on maple fingerboard.
if you are going to stain do you apply the solarez filler first or after stain?
Either way works.
Building a Tele and finishing it in opaque vintage blonde. Do you suggest sanding between coats of grain filler?
Yes. You'll get a smoother surface for your opaque color.
Hey Chris would you be able to recreate a vintage plectrum banjo? (22 fret dowel through rim)
I hate banjos and I have to like something to be willing to make it.
If I'm staining - say a Walnut stain on mahogany on an SG... if I have to sand the grain filler after I apply the stain, wont that compromise the color I'm tyring to put down?
It could if you sand through the filler. All you are trying to do is level it. Apply a couple of coats as smooth as possible to reduce to amount of sanding. If you do sand through, touch up the area with your stain. Another method would be to apply the filler first. Next, sand the surface smooth. Then apply a coat or two of a clear coat tinted the same color as your stain.
Would you still use the order described in the dye portion of the video if the final sealer is Tru-Oil? Thank you!!
I would test it first on scrap wood.
I got a acoustic guitar that I sanded down to bare wood what is the minimum I can do? Just to protect the wood.
Apply boiled linseed oil.
Hello! It was a great explanation. May I use thinned shellac for sanding sealer before apply the dye? I want to refinish my Ibanez Sr905 bass and my plan is to sand down to bare wood with 120-240-400-600grit paper, than apply alcohol thinned shellac , then apply dark color stain for wood grains then sand it back with 600g then dye it with the brighter color, then apply 6-8 coat of tru oil, sanding between layers. What do you think? Should I apply maybe shellac as top coat again? Should I have to grain fill before the dye? Thank you in advance.
Absolutely!
@@HighlineGuitars thank you. i have edited the former question.
is there any concern using the SolarEZ over celluloid binding or perfling materials?
Nope. Go for it.
Chris, if I am doing more of a burst, and I first use sanding sealer on the sanded body and neck, then add my lighter dye to the body top, , do you add sanding sealer again before putting the darker colored dye around the edge of the body? …. or do you just let the lighter colored dye of the first coat dry, then apply darker dye on perimeter, and then add the sealer. hope that is not too confusing…lol
I will apply sanding sealer after each application of dye if the dye doesn't have a binder. It isn't critical, but it's a good idea to protect the fragile dye.
Thank you so much. No binder as I am using Keda mixed with water. Great project I am doing with my grandson...or...should I say WE are doing with my grandson. Will be purchasing your guitar plan in future. TYOU!
what is confusing is that you are referring at Solarez grain sealer and then sanding sealer, but the example that you show of solarez says grain and filler sealer, like two in one, are you referring at that ?
They are one and the same.
When working with a basswood body (in the raw) that has some open pores in some areas where it was cut, would it be best to dye/stain prior to using the Solarez product or before?
I meant after stain/dye*
Apply the Solarez after the dye/stain.
@@HighlineGuitars Thanks for the prompt response!
hey Chris, i'm starting to finish a mahogany guitar with some deep pores - I filled them with 2 coats of grain filler, sanded it off and it appeared good to go -not so much ! After 2 coats of sealer I noticed a couple spots that were still unfilled. What would the best way to deal with them before continuing on with color ?
I would just apply the filler in those spots, let them dry, and sand them smooth. You probably should apply a final coat of sanding sealer just to make sure the spots are filled in before you apply color.
@@HighlineGuitars -thanks for the tip -that makes sense- I thought it might stand out a bit on a semi transparent colour but probably not this early on . Take care, I love the channel
I like this video, it's great. But I could use clearer explanations on a few things. What is the purpose of a sanding sealer, versus what is the purpose of a grain filler. Also can you mix water-based products with the oil-based products? And you mentioned some of these products as water-based but don't mention the other ones?
Maybe this will help: ua-cam.com/video/CcFrrX6mRG8/v-deo.htmlsi=5FmilK_bBvFK4Oj0
I don’t recommend mixing water-based products with oil-based. If you insist on doing so, be sure to test on scrap.
Ok, I have an ash body that I want to dye stain a tv yellowish color then encase the finish with clear top coat. Is this correct:
1. Sand prep to 220 grit
2. Apply sanding sealer
3. Apply dye
4. Apply one more coat of sanding sealer
5. Apply clear grain filler
6. Apply clear topcoat
I'm a slow learner...😬
Thank you SO MUCH for these videos, sir. Your work is always excellent. Cheers!
You got it.
@@HighlineGuitars Awesome! Thanks again! Very much appreciated.
Thank you for the info. Question though. If enhance the grain with dye, should I still put a coat of sanding sealer first? Or after the due. Thanks.
It depends on the wood. If you can, test on scrap. Sealer can be applied first and lightly sanded back to promote even coverage of the dye. However, the key to success is to test first.
Excellent idea. It’s and alder body with flame maple top. I love your channel. Thanks.
@@tdio8742 I would apply the sealer to the Alder before the dye, but don't apply sealer to the Flamed Maple until after you apply the dye otherwise the dye won't pop the figure.
Thank you so very much!
can you add tint to solarez directly to grainfill? the website seems to only have that answer for the poly surfboard fill they sell
I’ve never added tint to Solarez ICBINL, so I don’t know.
@@HighlineGuitarsno worries. think i’m going to do some solarez ICBINL, then light stain, then seal it up, how’s that sound? first time for me!
I've been going through some of your videos, great content by the way! I have a question pertaining to something you did a while back in "Episode 121" that you explain differently here. In Episode 121 you mixed dye with the Gel Stain. In this video it sounds like you skip the Gel Stain and just use dye mixed in water. I'm curious if I understand this correctly or if I'm missing something? I'm thinking of ordering some materials soon and I just want to make sure I'm getting what I need. Thanks!
How you use it depends on what kind of look you’re after.
@@HighlineGuitars could I pull on that string and ask, “how are the two looks different?”
@@timsullivan1940 Gel stains don’t soak into the wood. They sit on top like a semi transparent paint. Dye mixed with water or alcohol soaks into the wood and helps pop figure.
I’ve been following your Chanel and love the content. Problem is I’m obviously not a good student. I recently started a fender strat kit. Followed your instructions on sanding, staining, sealing, the grain filler. Issue is I used Angelus dyes but then used the Solarez grain filler sealer and it totally ruined the stain job and after 1 full day, it is still tacky. Luckily I only did on back so I figure I can sand off and redo. It doesn’t seem any dryer than it was yesterday. Will it eventually harden enough to sand (how long) or what would you suggest to remove all the damaged areas?
It was looking so good until I tried the filler. I guess I should have used a water based product like Aqua Coat which I just ordered.
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
You'll need to talk with the folks at Solarez. I've never experienced what you describe. Always test finishing products before you commit to your actual project.
Did you ever figure out a good finish on top of the Angelus dye? I had the same issue with Angelus + Solarez. I’m trying a layer of shellac in between as a sealer but still not sure how it’s going to come out.
@@party-wizard Sorry, but no. I don't use Angelus dyes, so I can't comment.
Wow Chris - your hair got really long. You look like a Mad Scientist now.
I've watched several of your videos about grain fillers and you have talked about many different processes including using drywall compound. I'm in Canada & I find all of the available grain fillers are quite expensive here. Is there a big difference in using the commercial grain fillers as opposed the the drywall compound or even plaster of paris which I have read was used many years ago by professional woodworkers. I ask because I happen to already have plenty.
Dry wall compound and plaster of Paris are opaque while many of the commercial fillers are available in clear.
@@HighlineGuitars Thanks!. Can I assume then if I am painting with an opaque paint that there is no difference in the actual grain filling result?
@@oldiesalternative5715 Yes.
@@HighlineGuitars Great! Thank you for all your great videos. I have learned a great deal from them.
So if i wanna paint it with transparent color the order is sanding filler, dye color, an then grain filler? and then lacquer?
That's how I'd do it.
@@HighlineGuitars thanks!
Brown Guitars recommends no sanding sealer or wood filler with Crystalaq brite tone - says he is issues with delamination with any product other than brite tone. He recommended seal with brite tone, fill with ca - tint brite tone and glaze on color - then more clear coats with 400 grit dry level sand every couple coats. Have you had issues with delamination? I have all the crystalaq products and want to finish my first two guitars - just wondering how well their gel stain, wood filler, and it’s knot shellac bond with brite tone and each other.
I have never had any issues with delamination. All Crystalac products are compatible because they contain the same basic ingredients. The ratios in each are varied since they serve different purposes. If someone claims to have issues with adhesion, it's almost always due to improper application (failure to sand between coats, less than ideal application temperature, and contaminated application equipment).
Would you still need grain filler on alder, for a solid colour?
No. A high build sanding sealer will work better as it can be applied smoother, which means less prep work.
So i just got my unfinished guitar body. Doo i sand it to 320 and then put down the sanding sealer?
Sorry, going to stain/dye it next.
That’s what I would do.
Question about your second method (I'm using on mahogany, will use your exact method)- what sanding sealer are you using?? Sanding sealers have Zinc Stearate added apparently- Solarez you describe as a grain filler in vid, but it's listed as a grain sealer on the product bottle- and your affiliate link has it listed as "grain filler sealer". Im confused which it is- is it actually both?? Or are you using a sanding sealer separate from it you don't directly mention?? I am going to stain wood with Transfast water soluble Java color dye, and finish with Waterlox in 4-5 coats at the very end btw. Secondary question- when you apply The coat of sanding sealer after the dye- do you sand that at all before using Solarez? Apparently sanding sealer has to be sanded after each time but you didn't specifically say this for that step not sure what you do there. If you do sand that before Solarez, won't it take off the dye?
I use Solarez ICBINL as both a sealer and a grain filler. Often, I use a water-based sanding sealer to fix my dye color. Then I apply the Solarez ICBINL without sanding first. In this case sanding sealer is used only to fix the dye. If I were to use it to level the surface before applying my clear coats, the I would sand between coats to get it level.
Staining the guitar, are you sanding the solareze before you put the sanding sealer on again?
Yes.