Making the World Give a Damn About Your Game in 2018
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- In this 2018 GDC talk, No More Robots' Mike Rose discusses what currently works (and what doesn't) when attempting to sell a game in 2018.
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Watching this at the end of 2020. RIP Mixer. Also Discord is even bigger now that it's crazy!
@@MAKIUSO Those are coming. Mark my words. Nothing gets popular without becoming evil.
@@MAKIUSO Last I checked, that was just a rumor. Has that been officially announced?
@@MAKIUSO You know, spreading rumors as facts is just as evil as being owned by Microsoft.
@@MAKIUSO Always check your sources. Never take things at face value. Don't play into the "fake news" phenominon.
Right. I forgot about Mixer.
Not even half way done this talk was much more helpful and focused than most of the other generic marketing advice talks
yeah this dude is very helpful
yes
tho to before I disagree on his point about streamers. I think it depends on the kind of game : a solo player game won't care if streamers play it, but a success like the one of pubg was greatly due to streamers (same for Fortnite).
Generic it is not a narrow genre of game. Among multiplayer game there is mainly games where you develop a character (so you need time, like mmo or slow pace games) and games where you don't (and these are much more proliferous imo). And even mmo kindof game work welle with streamers (like GTA for instance). It depends on what kind of streamer it is but for sure a game where the pace is fast (usually invomving a lot of restart) works better
I agree, this guy is a master.
Me: want to make a video game.
Reality: "Less than 7% studios survive..."
u can make a game. will it sell? if u want it to sell, u gotta be your own CEO, businessman and marketer. or give a publisher 30% of your rvenue to do it.
I feel like a studio may be worth it to go for, but not until you have made a few (at least small) games.
Just make something good. These statistics are meaningless. Games are art. Of course 93% of studios fail. Their games are trash. Show me any example of a great game failing to make sales. Don't ask how your game can make more money. First ask yourself if you have a story worth telling.
Comments:
This talk is a goldmine!
This talk:
Mixer is AMAZING!
This talk is great. Serves as a great primer for devs who aren't used to thinking about their games as a thing that actually needs an audience, and how to build one.
It was mentioned that 3-6 months is an ideal time-span between announcement and release. I wonder how this should be handled differently for a brand new developer starting from scratch. It seems like an unknown dev starting to talk about a game 3-6 months before release wouldn't have enough time to build a social media following etc sufficient to avoid the release going unnoticed, since that's something you need to put time in for and grind to achieve. For example, I don't think it's possible to organically attract thousands of people to a Discord server in a few weeks without having some kind of platform already, even if the server itself is really well organised. So I'm curious how people would approach tying this stuff in to the launch of a brand new studio.
For a brand new dev - trickier. Alpha and Beta game states need to be determined of course. You can hardly release an alpha with out making an announcement that you have a game. I think what we're talking about here is, have your game as done as it can be before announcement of release date. Release date should then be 3-6 months away. Creating hype can be dangerous, since people build up unreasonable expectations. Twitch, Twitter, Discord and UA-cam are your life for those 3-6 months.
Model your plan off of Hollywood movies. Early marketing (posters, teasers) doesn't happen until production is well underway, after you have production stills to show and something tangible for cast & crew to comment on. The bulk of the marketing timeline happens *after* post-production is complete, and the product - movie or game - is basically ready to ship. Marketing is even more of a full-press effort for solo/small devs than for big Hollywood studios & AAA publishers, so get rid of the idea that the game should be shipped as soon as it's complete.
Finish the game first, saving a bunch of in-progress screenshots & streams to use for later marketing hype, and then focus on your actual marketing timeline. Consumers don't have to actually see your blood, sweat, & tears development in-real-time - let them see you mixing the batter, talk up the challenges of baking, then pull out a fully-prepped cake from the oven.
Oh, and betas aren't for testing anymore, not really. They're essentially part of your marketing timeline. By the time it hits beta, your game ought to be 95% tested already IMO.
52:40 - i've heard u should be marketing as soon as you have anything solid. like artwork or gameplay.
@@mandisaw yeah but most game devs cant afford to wait another 2 months to market the game ... they need the money kinda
He had a second change of ending positively after the round of questions... yet still ended on "selling your soul" xD
The moment where you're watching this years later and you have to skip over the mixer part lmao
It's still good advice, just replace "Mixer" with a different upcoming social media or content aggregation platform of your choice. As long as it's getting bigger, supports product promotion, and is based around groups of sub-communities, you can feasibly use it to similar effect. Of course, gaming-focused social media platforms are going to be better for promoting games, but they're not the only options. Hell, if a more general platform is large enough, it will have gaming-related communities housed on it, and due to this you can apply much of Mike Rose's advice to sites like Facebook or Reddit, and focus on upcoming communities instead of upcoming platforms.
Ultimately, Mike's advice regarding Mixer boiled down to "provide content to the community that the people running the community want to promote, and they will promote you in return." Not all places are as direct with promoting game developers as Mixer was, since the content Mixer wanted to promote was developers playing their own games, but that doesn't mean they won't promote games or their developers. Twitter likes to promote things that start discussions, Reddit communities like to promote things that fit their theme, Imgur likes to promote pretty and/or wholesome gifs and images. Those are the three sites I'm most familiar with for promotion, but there are thousands of social media sites and content aggregation sites, all housing countless communities encompassing all kinds of niches. There's no doubt in my mind that you can apply this advice to the vast majority of them.
@@evilbarrels2506 I guess it was presumptuous of me to skip over the content. I might have to go back and check out it out now
What if I want people to care about my game in 2020?
Out of luck
I've watched a lot of useful marketing talks, but this one was enlightening. I really hope a lot of developers watch this.
Watching April 2023. RIP Mixer.
Even as someone who only develops games as a hobby, this is a tremendously useful discussion. I think the part about the hook and kicker is extremely useful even just in terms of making a fun game. When I first started making games, I was always thinking about the kicker, which would usually result in a game with an interesting mechanic or two but wasn't very fun to play. The better approach, particularly for amateurs, seems to be to come up with the hook first, then figure out the kicker afterwards. For me, this came in the form of "think of an idea you really like, then put your own spin on it". Currently, I'm working on a game that's like Pokemon, but with a real-time battle system.
This video also made me think about some of the things that make me as a consumer interested in the game. The point about Discord is a great one, but I never join a game's discord until after I've bought the game, so it doesn't seem to be a factor in my purchasing decision, even though I appreciate it when it's there. I think something that is a big factor though is when the developer has a lot of passion for their game. I think if it comes across in your videos that you really think this game is great, then probably other people will too.
While its an amazing talk i think the reason he didnt see a big increase from youtuber coverage, is because of the nature of the game. I think a downhill mountainbike game is too niche to see a huge spike from people who arent interested in the first place. And there is also a huge overlap with other forms of media. You cant reach the same person twice.
His attitude is the reason why he is successful
if you are selling a game, put in the hours of doing the hustle. hustle hustle hustle. this guy knows how to sell.
This guy is awesome and it would be amazing to have him work on your game. You can tell it sucks to have to think of your buyers as cattle, but it's a business and it has to come down to numbers and sales. But he handles it super well. Good job.
But you need to have your wranglers who herd the cattle and keep your reviews positive! 😀
I appreciate you sharing this information. Definitely helped me a ton to get encouraged, as well as visualize how to use some important tools as to how to leverage them. Big thanks!
This approach has worked for one game which is fairly open-ended (procedural generated) and includes some aspects of competition (you have to choose a bike riding faction in the game), things that directly support the Discord concept smartly/luckily. I wonder how it would go though for a linear single-player game.
Hey sickre, very good question! I actually have another talk very recently at Develop Conference that I believe will be uploaded sometime in the next week, that answers this very question, so make sure you keep your eyes peeled for that :)
No More Robots thanks for replying! I would like to know if it will be uploaded on this channel or somewhere else.
Try to do something most single players don't do regularly and market based on those unique attributes? Maybe have video showcases that even show what you're game does generally well instead of buzzwords like a lot of companies do these days (I.E calling it innovative and unique when it really isn't or using the games length as a selling factor when that really doesn't matter if the game itself doesn't do enough to support that playtime).
Please comment with a link to it when it goes up! :)
Just to re-reply to this -- we launched our 2nd game Not Tonight last week, using all the stuff I talked about in this talk, and Not Tonight has sold even better than Descenders. So hopefully that's some additional proof for you that this approach can work quite well
Thanks for this talk! Open, direct, and some very helpful advices!
thanks alot now i had to buy the game
The person asking the first question has such a nice voice!
The question is how much of it in the end is community hype and the hyped community spamming positive reviews and how much is actually people genuinely enjoying a game. Sure the initial revenue is good and in that regard it makes it a financial success but was it also a good game that will continue to sell? I don't know the game, so this is not criticism or anything. Those are just the questions popping up in my head while watching this talk.
I don't imagine that community hype would survive game-launch for a crappy game. Generally folks only evangelize for a game that they either personally enjoy, or hope to use somehow to get more games that they want (genre-promotion). Nobody takes the time to tell friends about a terrible game unless they're getting paid to do so, or are addicted/compelled to do so.
googled "hook and kicker sales tactic" and managed to find this video again
But does it work in 2019?
no they patched it
Everytime he talks about luck, I keep thinking he is saying look instead. I have to go back and look at the slide to get the context and realize he is saying he doesn't like relying on luck to sell games and spread the word.
Great talk and enlightening, but makes me quite panicking and stressed right now.
I felt like none of these has been done to my game. And I've only have 1 months coming to my release window. (I don't even published our release date yet)
Can I really make it, I wonder...
Hey Alice -- in that case, is your release date really important to keep? Why not delay your game by a few months, give it a proper announcement, and follow as much of my tips as possible? If you think you're going to send your game out to die, there's no embarassment in delaying the launch to get some hype before launch :)
whoa, thanks for replying! That make sense, though my team doesn't agree with delaying the release date. I better get my checklist fulfilled as much as possible.
@@alicecroquette9876 Here's hoping they listened. Although, if they need the money, then I can udnerstand why holsing the release date back could be scary.
This is a repeat, right? This has already been uploaded.
Yeah dude! I was just wondering if I was crazy!
Hey sickre! Just a clarification on this -- I was asked to do this talk at GDC on the Wednesday, and then do a shortened version of the talk for students on the Friday. The shortened Friday version was previously uploaded, and this is now the hour long Wednesday version. It contains much of the same info, although it does also have some additional stuff throughout :)
Thanks for the explanation. I thought... 'hmmm, same content, different jacket?'. So that explains that.
Cheers, Robots! Honestly, a good enough talk to listen to again anyway ;)
cheers, man
what a fantastic talk, thank you very much
We need more ways to buy games on PC instead of just Steam and GOG
Nathan Gatten I've actually had good luck with the Microsoft store on Windows 10. My game is Xbox Play Anywhere, so I'm sure that's part of it, but a good amount of the purchases are from PC users. It's certainly more than I get on Steam.
GameJolt
So we need itch.io?
Like Discord and Epic?
Thanks Mike for this...I am watching both videos for third time to tune my quiver...
"I have like 4 minutes left for questions..."
18 minutes later... :D
what a great talk watching during a time of uncertainty in the market. God bless ppl
Brilliant tips, thanks.
he looks like an honest, direct and open lad. i like it. things he's saying also makes sense, thanks for sharing.
High-value video!! I'm a game music composer, but knowing more about the "game world" is a must!
The streaming and spreading the game among the player streamers is an AMAZING idea, you clever Brit. I'll give Mixer and Nvidia Sharing Play a try and stream my game to see what happens next.
What I can recomend:
-Make a passion project
-Give the game soul
-Dont just go with trends and do nothing with it, if you want to do a Mario like give it your own spin, tell your story, make it something special, those games will eventually pick up if they are something special and over time will sell a lot.
Lol a year later everyone is spammed with invitations to discord servers and they have too many to manage so they no longer want to join your discord server D:
or you only use like 4 of the 8 discord servers you joined.
And, no, these things aren't awful or cringeworthy activities to do. I've been talking directly with my audience and I always have a good time with them. They're supportive and amazing. Talking to publishers is easier to talk than a relative like an over critic aunt or some kind of this stuff, actually XD I'm an introverted and have no problem with those things. I bet if other game devs just relax and stop to focus on themselves instead on the people they're talking to, everything will be easier :) Just... relax!
I love that guy. Great talk, hilarious presentation!
Good talk even though this is for the video market. I might try to introduce my new board game on Discord. It's due to launch in September of next year. Does anyone know if that's possible?
Is it somehow ironic that, after seeing this as well as other things on DIscord's news, I really wanna buy Descenders?
Does steam provide the exact conversion from wishlist? Curious to know how much do these conversions amount from the total sales of the game on the launch week, for instance.
Yes, each publisher get access to their metrics. It is under NDA.
Helpful advice
Does the $30,000 average a mean or a median? I'm kinda interested in how it was arrived at.
i'm curious too. i think it's gotta be the mean, because the top few games make millions easily, but there are probably thousands of games that make next to nothing. seems like the mode would be a couple thousand or less.
its mean
He has a talk on this channel called "Let's Be Realistic: A Deep Dive into How Games Are Selling on Steam", where he explains all the numbers
This is obviously inaccurate because there are so many games launching daily on steam that there's no way the overall average is $30,000. Only works if it is a mean combining the few that make millions and the many that make hundreds.
Loved the video. Very honest, direct and gritty talk in layman's terms about the harsh realities of the field. Thank you very much!
30:00 Anyone know what this graph means? I'm having a difficult time understanding it. Is it that the perceived quality of, say, an indie game, goes down the more expensive it is? And then if it's good enough to be considered a "AA" game, you can put a higher price on it without losing any perceived quality?
No, my understanding is that audience perception of value (valuation) is initially based on your own asking price. Kind of like if someone is selling a car or house way below market-rate, then you get suspicious that perhaps there's something wrong with it. Same thing applies to games - know your market, know your audience, and know how your game fits with both.
the best indies games can follow the arrows and join the "low ranked AA games"
What is his accent?
23:18 how do you explain Apex Legends? is it an exception or misjudgment? I feel a good game will sell if it gets the views. I like the sense of creating a community of the enthusiasts you want to market to. The theory to use discord, I wonder if it has become diluted with these marketing type servers? I understand a medium budget bike game perspective may have been at play here. Thanks for the info ;) great talk!
Id say ad populum is the marketing tactic. Pay celebrities to advertise a FREE game that was made exceptionally well.
the interesting thing about Apex = they had to market it that way. it had to be a surprise release
a EA Battle Royale, a ReSpawn game that wasnt Titanfall 3 = Dead on Arrival
also they payed Ninja and Shroud $1 mil each. that was like 200k live viewers combined off those guys alone. and it was a great game with good graphics with an anticheat
Haha! I saw this guy at EGX. Pretty smart how he did it.
Weird that I found this today, the day after Descenders first birthday. Interesting talk, thanks!
Waithcing this in 2022 is a lot lmao
Rip mixer
Factionalization and tribalism is a hell of a drug, but it can be problematic when it goes too far (see US politics).
video ends at 1:03:21
Games aren't selling so good? They are selling more than ever. It's just that supply outstrips the demand, even if it's making continious records every year. There's too many games beign made, for anyone to be able to play. Thousands and thousands of games.
Most do not deserve the description "game"
Well the mixer thing didn't age well...
Damn, I found this too late
We all did.
i just realized the second game he is talking about is not tonight. I hope it did well too
These studio don't understand that it is just same competitive ecosystem that they all have been witnessing in life. Did everyone got admission into Harvard? Did everyone get 5.0 CGPA in their majors? Did everyone land $300k first job? Do everyone get as successful as Jeff Bezos?
It is a good sign that only 7% of studio do well or else we wouldn't be improving ourselves. Get good and you will see success.
The description is wrong
Nice IphoneX haircut
Everything is look based.
How about making a great game for once.
How many gamers even know about tech and know about procedurally generates worlds. But point noted
Great advice, this guy 1000% got payed by discord though
This made me laugh out and roll on the ground! There is an easy way to make your game to get attention and here how: STOP making CRAP SURVIVAAAAALLL WITH ZOMMMBIESSSS for god sake! They call them indie devs when the real fact is they are juvenile copy pasting code to make the same clone of a previous clone and more than 99% of the time a very worst clone. When you are young(i know i have been in the past)you don't have enough experience to make something complex as a video game without everyone noticing your level of amateurish crap. They cannot make a single player with a compelling story line and interesting characters since they don't have the skills. I know i am sarcastic but at this point in time when our extinction is just around the corner i can only laugh at how stupid our specie has become.
What I hear is: "There is no point in making a game." - Oops! Except now I already did... two... double oops!... for ios: race-high and dwidlo. (: sneaky ad). And they don't even get downloads. What a surprise! And now I am here. Now, why would that be?!
this guy is a horrible speaker
This man is awesome, best GDC talk
This talk is such a goldmine. This is quality, modern knowledge of the current landscape. Jim Sterling already has shown how much of a joke the steam store has become, but now also hearing directly from a developer it's clear whats happening. Plus the bonus of community, streaming, and more this is so useful.
Where's the joke with Steam? Most all the games are sold on it. And it keeps making selling records. It's just that there's too many thousands of games for everyone to play. One might buy 2 dozen games per year, and thousands and thousands of games would still go unbought.
@@Tenebrousable Yes, you're right that there's an oversaturation. Hell, most long-time Steam users (including me) have tons of games that were bought and not even played.
But Steam is a joke --it's turned into the Apple App Store or Google Play store. The same publisher in this talk, Mike Rose, has another talk at GDC from the same event, about the revenue numbers of Steam games. He pointed out that in 2017, the average game on Steam sold 500 copies, and made $2000 in revenue, with the average price at $7. The next year, the average Steam game sold 50 copies and made $250 in revenue, at an average price of $5. In Aug 2017, there were ~25 games/day being released on Steam. By Feb 2018, 40/day -- or an extra 300 games per month. It's Jan 2020 now, and it's hard to imagine that this trajectory didn't continue. As he points out in his talk: looking at the 7% or so games that make a "livable" revenue for their studios to be able to survive is not very smart business for the other 93% of indie developers, and nothing to gamble on without knowing how to do your own marketing.
About Hooks, If the description of your game is 90% about the story in your game, it makes me think it has little to offer in terms of gameplay. Its not very important if your game has an "epic battle between orcs and goblins" like thousands of other games, if I can't even tell what kind of game it is.
you think you know whats exciting about your game but you are WRONG .. tag Jonathan Blow/ Braid xD
This is an intelligent guy.
These are pretty basic concepts.
@@zealtalk2 thats easy to say. a lot of the time you think you understand a concept in and out, but when youre asked to put it into words you cant do it. its nothing more than an illusion of competence. this guy knows what hes talking about, otherwise he wouldnt be able to explain everything as clearly as he did.
Valuable information and reality explained.
No More Robots? As a robot I find it offensive.
prove that you are a robot : 0.1 + 0.2 = ...
I think a good reframing around his point about not undercharging for your game: players certainly care more about good support and more content than saving $5.
Mixer rip
Btw, as you may have already heard it: *Mixer* is closed.
wow this is an absolutely amazing talk!
His voice is like Mr.Bean.
The Mixer part of this talk aged like milk.
His concept still makes sense. It can be hard for an indie game to get noticed on a established platform like Twitch, but if you appear on a newer, less crowded platform then people can see you.
Thanks alot for the talk and the share, very insightful I'll subscribe to stay tuned :)
Whats is official Discord server for GDC? and why there is still no
Dunno if he said anything really. Making the game free and paying for an absolute ton of ads seems to have helped Fortnite, which has nothing special previous CTF/KOTH etc type games.
So tip #1: Make a football/racing/shooter game, make it free, and go to town on marketing.
If you want to appeal to us other ones who want interesting gameplay, don't make us wait until someone plays it for us on UA-cam, and don't make us skip to the still images to even see what the game looks like on the screen.
So tip #2: Show only actual gameplay in the trailer. The number of games on Steam that even have 100% in-game footage, let alone of the gameplay, can be counted on one hand.
Anything else is just wanting attention for a game that doesn't warrant it. If you think it warrants it, you have probably spent a lot of money on salaries. Have you?
So tip #3: Hire a lead artist, make him boss and pay him well. Graphics is what sells an unknown game to someone who isn't category 1 or 2, and to some of those as well.
Obviously you should make sure you have **competent** writers, coders and musicians as well. Generally, if you hesitate to pay them more than a white-collar worker, you should probably hire a competent person instead.
Good content
OMG can this guy stop saying "uhm"
erm.
Starting your talk by telling your audience you're "going to try to stay awake for the next hour" is a great way to get them interested by showing them you're interested.
Ummmm. Brilliant.... Ummmm.... Idea.... Ummmm
I added this to my watch later list 5 years ago but didn't get around to watching it yet... is there any point now? It's not 2018 anymore