The darkest thing about the train is the fact that Amelia's trauma was so bad that she'd rather stay on the train forever and never face the truth than try and let go of her past.
This is what I love about infinity train. It never said that growing and being a better person is easy or is as simple as the number system makes it out to be. It shows that while there's a goal to be better, the path you take and what you need to do to get there is different for everyone. I believe that infinity train perfectly shows the importance of independent thought and embracing of difference and chaos. From Tulip learning how to control and move the train cars that once trapped her, to Lake finding a loophole to be free from the train, and even Grace in book 3 learning to respect and care for the denizens she once thought emotionless lines of code. The entire show sets up strict rules and systems, and shows its characters breaking free from them through helping each other and learning to look past what they're taught are just facts of life. Tulip looked past viewing the train as an all powerful anomaly and learned to see it as a machine. Lake learned to look past the numbers and to realize that no matter what the train thinks, they deserve to be free. Grace learned to look past what she and so many others were taught to think about denizens and the conductor, and I can't wait to see what she learns in the final few episodes. I'm really glad to have a show like Infinity Train. It's now more important than ever to teach children and teens watching the importance of independent thought, skepticism, and holding peoples well-being and safety/freedom above rules or systems. It's had me challenge and change my view of morality and how there really can't be any catch-all rules, because everybody is different. It's way of embracing individuality over conformity/complacency really makes this show amazing and so fun to theorize and analyze lol. Amazing video!
The idea of the Train as a metaphor for life fits pretty well. For Tulip, the Train is an experience tailored to the passenger, designed as a playground for their own personal growth. I feel this is the way almost all of us feel about life at some point, especially when were kids. Some people still live like this, it's an easy thing to slip into.
An interesting parallel is game design. In the same way that art creates an experience for you to convey a message, games do the same but through action and choices (or at least the illusion there-of). In the same sense, the Train is almost like a giant tactile video-game, presenting moral lessons through it's puzzles and problems.
@@DakNJaxter A good observation! But I'd like to point out that either view can dehumanize the passengers of the train, and is ignorant of the sentient ecosystem of the train as a whole. The passengers may be stars of our show, but the train inhabitants deserve personhood.
@@Guruc13 even book 4 humanized the denizens though it wasn’t the main focus ,book 1 did have the turtle episode which humanized the denizens kinda by showing how 1 1 can be cold and uncaring when listening to his programming
Limey Lassen I try my best to cite all of my sources in all of my videos (sometimes I haven't done as good a job). I talk about some lofty concepts like ethics and philosophy and literary theory in a lot of my videos. Though the discussion here are introductory by design, and subsequently don't go too deep into the complex topics so I can introduce more people to these concepts. Showing my sources is a pretty good way to let people expand from the material taught here and find out more for themselves
Personally, I have always seen the train as "Jumanji on rails", a teacher very eager to give you a harsh leson but not that interested to know if you learn it
I don't think the numbers equal their morality, but more so their personal growth or how content they are with themselves/their peace of mind. People with pent up baggage and insecurities, like those we see on the train, who are reluctant to change for the better will only see their number go up.
Right. When Jesse comes back to the train for Lake, his problem is he wants Lake off the train. There was no question of his morality. There was unease in his mind and that’s how he returned to the train. Of course there’s the question of how the heck he managed to summon the train purposefully like that, but regardless.
0:55 On Steven Universe, I still maintain that even with some episodes having bits where the moral implications could be questionable, I'm mostly just impressed they *went there* and got those conversations going. With Infinity Train it feels to me like there's a sort of core value to each season. With the first, trauma. How do you react when major events that aren't even your fault disrupt your life? The second, identity. As Iroh put it, "who are you, and what do you want?" And with the third, I'd say empathy.
In regards to the example with Amelia, and in wake of Simon in season 3, I think that’s it’s important to remember that we all as people are responsible for our own actions and their consequences, and that is the logic the train runs on. The train may have brought Amelia on hours with the intention of helping her, but she was the one who made the choices that brought her were she is in the series, when there were always many options a head of her. When a person is making toxic choices or trying to change and improve, it is up to them what they do in a situation. And if they continue down a path that is hurting them instead of changing they may end up destroying themselves. With that said what the heck is there from keeping people from dying by all the dangerous stuff on the train? That’s kind of a red flag that makes you wonder if the train itself knows what’s best for the passengers. Still the only thing from the train that we’ve seen able to kill people or the ghoms. There is a theory that a ghom can kill you much faster with a higher number though, so that it’s always safer to bring your number down but even so. The point is that self improvement is a personal journey, and the “right” way for each passenger, or the key to a lower number, means making decisions that keep you from masking the same problems for yourself. Maybe. Thanks for coming to my ted talk. K bye.
I understand that everyone is responsible for their actions, but isn't it more responsible the environment they grew up in. If someone grows up in an environment where everything is wrong, and they do what they were taught, how are they supposed to know what's actually right, other form of life. Simon wasn't the only one to blame. They were kids put in a hard and unknown situation, and they thought what they were doing was okay. And how were they supposed to know that it wasn't if they didn't knew anything else about the train. By the time hazel appeared it was to late for him,he became a kinda narcissist person bc of the toxic environment/ experiences he had on the train. For people like simon (or other characters like Zuko or catra) does it apply consequentialism or deontology ethics?
@@verdeamarillo4979 given that characters like Zuko, Catra, and Simon are kids who are more in survival mode and that is why their actions leave room for redemption, I don’t know if consequentialism or deontology are the right ways of looking at them entirely. I guess if I had to pick I would lead more to consequentialism being the reason for retribution given that when Zuko, Catra, or Simon made a choice they were acting in self interest, however it could be argued deontology since they all believed at the time that it was the right thing to do to keep themselves safe or be accepted. See, I guess I look at it more from a psychology/therapy angle than a ethics angle and maybe that’s a shortcoming on my part of debating this. But I also believe that in the cases of Catra and Zuko it was difficult because their environment started off bad and they thought they had to be a certain way to be happy. But through good support systems or through looking at the consequences of their own actions and how it made them feel, they on their own made choices to change and do the right thing. Though there was also an environment change in both cases: (Zuko going back home as a prince and Catra on Horde Prime’s ship). I feel that in Simon’s case the thing about the train is that it IS meant to be a safe environment that gets you out of the bad one and helps teach you how to change. However it isn’t perfect, and Simon and Grace when combined were not good coping supports for the other, but maybe they were enablers. They both had the chance to confront their choices and change, but Simon made choices that kept him from changing. I believe Simon could have been redeemed and deserved a chance, but I also see why he wasn’t.
im pretty sure i heard there was meant to be one somewhere but im not sure, if the series ever starts again, there might be hope. for now we can only try to make a vr game ourselves.
Far as I can tell, the train picks up people to solve a specific issue. The number represents how far your actions are pushing towards or away from dealing with said issue. As such, it’s not exactly designed to take morality into account-only growth. This is why Jesse got on and off the train so quickly the second time; One-One and Jesse’s interaction about whether Jesse had a reason to be there would imply so, at least. It’s also quite important to recognize that while Lake killed the Fleks, it was never her intention. She did not want to hurt anyone, she just wanted to be free. So anyone who points to that as “how Steven Universe should have handled it” are missing some very important points about Lake’s character, and by extension her actions taken within her character arc. Hell, even when she was handcuffed to that asshole, she was never interested in explicitly harming him-only wanting him to leave her alone. Then obviously other stuff happened. But it’s important to understand that if Lake had her way, no one would have gotten hurt. Not Jesse, not the Fleks. Meanwhile, Grace and Simon’s arcs are all about reckoning with consequences and how, no matter what you tell yourself, when you hurt others it hurts you as well; because at some point you’ll want something, and others will eventually decide they aren’t okay with you having it. Even the train itself falls victim to this-in not caring about the passengers themselves, but only whether or not they sort out their issues, it left itself open to passengers making their own rules that cause further destruction. A “Means to an end” mentality is always going to cause problems no one is interested in facing, least of all those who hold on to that mentality. Justification is a very tricky, slippery thing. It could also be easily argued that Grace’s fate is equivalent to that of the Diamonds: a morally corrupt leader responsible for large-scale death of sentient life attempting to reconcile a new worldview imparted on them by someone they wanted to be close to being given a chance to lead their followers in a different direction, and being allowed to not because they deserve it or because they’ve made up for everything, but mostly because they are the only ones with the actual power to change the way things work within the system they controlled for so long. Morality is a dangerously fluid concept, it’s true, and every decision will have consequences regardless of intent-but more often than not, cruelty begets cruelty, and kindness begets kindness. For me personally, that makes morality quite clear cut. Plus I consider how I act towards others to be less about what they do or do not deserve, and more about the kind of person I want to be. The fascinating thing is that the train itself commits to being a neutral party, which plays by very specific rules-rules that benefit a specific kind of person. But any system that refuses to change in the face of any new developments or data is a broken system.
The true villain of Infinity Train imo is the Train itself. It'd be one thing if it offered a journey to people who hit blocks in their life to overcome their problems, but it essentially abducts them and then puts them in life-threatening situations, and while that worked out great for some passengers, there are also cases like Grace and Simon. Simon's parents will never know what happened to their son, and even if Grace returns home, she'll have lost so much of her childhood there. Hell, just look at how young the children of the Apex were. And it's not just the Denizens that passengers have to watch out for, but other passengers as well. As Lelouch from Code Geass would say, "Forcing your good intentions on others is no different than an evil act."
The whole video is based on the statement that the purpose of the train is to make passengers a better person, but to my understanding (and from what one-one says at the beginning of season two if I remember correctly) the train's purpose is to learn to deal with a problem passengers are facing before they get on the train. Tulip is learning to view from the eyes of other, because she doesn't understand that her parents aren't divorcing because they are mean and want to hurt her but the opposite for exemple. The exemple that 'proves' it is that the train does not take Miranda (is it the name of 'the conductor' of season 1 I already forgot) to make her a better person; the grief of her lost husband is not wrong and the fact that she wants to end her life isn't immoral. The train want to help her to being in peace with her loss, not making her a better person (even if we know how it ends). In my opinion, the serie doesn't really ask questions of morality and instead discuss more about different personal conflicts. Putting yourself into other's perspective : Tulip. Denial : Miranda. Asserting your identity : MT and Jake... That's what Infinity train is about for me, and that's why Infinity Train makes the bold choice of putting the focus on very different characters with each season. That's pretty much all I have to say about it
This perfectly described why I adore Infinity Train. These moral and existential questions are why I particularly love Book 2. The dialogue in episode 8 between Mace and MT is amazing. To what extent of free will should denizens have? Why should they be othered? That's why I love how One-One becomes stuck in a loop on trying to figure out what to do with MT. Even more fascinating is that the solution he accepts of her "having a number" is based on a lie. That further represents how imperfect reality is, so I really loved your line that we need to "embrace the chaos of the universe." I'm very glad to have seen this video and am happy to have found this channel.
As a geek for morality conflict in cartoons, I LOVE this video. Also, thanks for using my remix for Lake’s theme in the beginning of the video. I really appreciate it! 🤩
THE WRITING, EDITING, EVERYTHING IN THIS VIDEO IS SO PERFECT!! You literally did the best description of Infinity Train in a short video essay!!! We need more shows taking this risks like Infinity Train, with a deep storytelling that doesnt judge their target audience's intelligence and instead leave us thinking after each episode
FINALLY thank you for blessing my life with an Infinity Train analysis. The different perspectives of morality really bugged me a lot when i was watching Infinity Train. Train creator or Mirror Dimension authorities can't possibly be morally perfect, so how can we expect any of them to govern the world or other people? It really pushed for the importance for independence and growth of the characters. Ironically if a God created the train and the entire system eventually resulted in the growth of all major characters, you could consider that a success. But that's just me being a little more fatalistic (:
I think the Übermensch thing you said about Grace was more about her subordinate guy because he got angry at Jesse for choosing his number going down over them while Grace seemed sad that she lost a soul. I think she truly believes to be doing right and wants to "help" the passengers, while the denizens are just computer programming to her that she doesn't care about. But the other guy actively treated them bad and wanted to force Jesse to adopt their lifestyle.
well ive been trying not to get my quarantine to-watch list any longer, but guess i have no choice 🤷🏻♀️ explorations on morality mixed with interesting art and concept design is exactly my go-to stuff
Casi R. If you haven't watched infinity train yet, it's a pretty quick watch with 20 11-minute episodes. So you would be able to finish it within a couple of hours.
It's pretty funny watching the Apex segment of this video after Book Three: The Cult of the Conductor. Still a really great video and a great talk about morality and discovering your own path of betterment.
Great video! A central point of the Infinity Train is that it isn't about setting a universal moral system, or even helping people become their best self, it is about (in one-one's words) "solving problems". First, it's ideological rather than action or consequence based. Numbers are shown changing as people talk or think about things, even before they've acted on any decision, or set off any side effects. Second, it's specific. A person can reach zero about the problem that brought them to the train, but still not be morally ideal, and still have other problems (as seen with Jesse).
This was amazing! It's one of the best video essays i've ever seen. Excellent music choice, amazing visuals and a very well written script while still being 15 minutes!
Aw thanks! While I know I have a propensity for talking about things for a long time (see also: my other videos) it does feel satisfying to nail all my thoughts in a shorter amount of time.
A comet passes by the Earth one day, leaving a perfectly straight line as it's trail. However, to us on Earth, it's looks as if it had curved towards then away from us. *That is the Infinity Train.* A straight line so flawed by our point of view, yet so perfect outside of it. The objective truth seen through our subjective eyes.
My wish upon the Infinity Train is to learn how to not only love myself for who I truly am, but to also learn to advocate for myself and recognize just how much I truly deserve.
i think the way the numbers work is at least in part the passenger's subconscious. Maybe not the number total but when the numbers go up or down. it's the passengers themselves judging on their own morality. (spoilers for book 3) it's suggested Simon killed nulls before So why was his numbers going insane when he was about to wheel tuba? It's because he spent enough time to know she was as much of a person as him, it was at that point he knew he was killing a person and not just breaking a toy, he knew just how wrong what he was doing was which was reflected in his number
well put, friend! Accepting and realizing the truth no matter how painful that pill's hard to swallow, remembering and truly knowing our past to carry on, acknowledging and embracing mistakes of our own and/ or others to learn from them. And being aware that we each have our own problems but there's no shame in having one nor is it bad to have people or sources to help us recover, get over it, and become a better person if possible in the end.
This is an amazing review i love Infinity train! But calling Tulip who was neglected selfish isnt correct. She wasnt selfish. She didnt understand what was going on and merely wished to deal with her pain alone.
I was always a bit iffy on the mirror world system. Because as you just said the denizens can't usually enter the real world but Tulip loosing her reflection was still seen in the real world. But that would mean that the reflections and mirror world exist in our world and thus are not exclusive to the train like the other phenomenoms. It's quite confusing.
5:10 This makes a lot of sense actually. I think this is how the train operates. Ive had this theory for a bit that somewhat lines up with this. What if the train is selfish? It seems how you treat denizens usually has a bigger effect on the number than anything else, upsetting denizens tends to make the number go up, almost every time. Sure you have edge cases like when a denizen is upset because they cant do something that upsets another, (peri) but just as a general rule, on top of the general morality, the train seems to favor the denizens by punishing passengers for doing bad things to them. I think book 3 makes this quite evident as the apex is based around getting a higher number by destroying the lives of different denizens in various cars. If you think about it, yes its bad, but it doesnt necessarily mean these people are becoming worse people, they are just doing what they have been doing for however long, and i doubt that would do much to make you a worse person after you had been doing it for a while already. Especially if you have already wholeheartedly dehumanized these entities. And yet their numbers continue to climb.
The train definitely has a base set of assumptions. It assumes that everyone that enters the train wants to tackle their issues (if they believe they have any), everyone that enters wants to confront their problems this way, or that everyone that enters the train will even believe the train can be interacted with in the first place, and that, even if all of those first three things are possible, that those who enter will have the physical and mental capability to survive the train long enough to learn and grow. If I'm correct about those assumptions the train probably assumed the Apex were not bad people, but was perfectly aware of what they were doing and were punishing them for lack of growth.
@@dreamythesheep hmm, yeah that might be the case. The train might be punishing them for their lack of growth, rather than punishing them for plunging further into their issues. Which does make sense, when Tulip was about to leave adicus her number went up, not because she was getting in a worse state, but because she was going back on the progress she had made up to that point.
@@Yipper64 It might also be a mix depending on the issue. Its very likely that Tulip's number could have increased if in tandem with attempting to leave Atticus her desperation to go back home led her to double down and thus the train punished her for her selfishness. Of course this is again under the assumption that the train does actually help people with their issues and by the time they reached zero they have arrived at the point they can't give into the flaw that brought them on the train in the first place.
While I feel you bring up some interesting points, I don't really think the show brings up any themes of morality intentionally. I feel the way the show presents the train and its passengers isn't meant to have us question it that much. Mostly because the character's emotional issues on both shows end up being more about something personal to them more than the themes of how moral or not is the train and any action in it. MT is responsible for the murder of three people (the passenger she took out from the pod was confirmed dead by the creator on twitter) but the show doesn't really treat her actions as either disgusting or heroic, she just did what she needed to do to escape. If this show truly did have some underlying themes of morality and what makes a good person, they would not have overlooked something as big as that. But since it's not going for that, they don't go into it, and they don't have to. The first season was about how running away from your problems never leads to anything good, while the second season explored existentialism. These themes of morality you mention seem to me like more things that came up in your head after thinking about this show more than the actual themes explored in it. Which isn't a bad thing, its pretty cool that a cartoon was able to make you think this much about complicated themes, but I don't really think it's one of the main things the creators had in mind when making the show. They definitely talked about it a bit, but not as in-depth as you may think. Even the survivors like Grace arent really finding certain meaning to the train in the way you described, they just think that's how it operates. I also don't think her character is the typical "strength above feelings, that is what the train is about" archetype considering how she was shown to be kind to Jesse. And I find that the eventual conclusion of "it's ok as long as you have friends/companions along the way" is pretty weak if they really wanted to tackle all those themes. I also feel that the second season made it perfectly clear that the train isn't really a good thing, it's straight up a madhouse where people are worse of than in the real world, and any enlightenment they might find is accidental instead of intentional. Jesse and MT escaped after breaking the rules of the train so there is no question that the train its fundamentally flawed to the core. But that's just my interpretation.
I agree with even tho I think there is some morality to the train second season really does explore more themes about right and wrong. I don't know about you but I love MT and how fun she is as a character how she is not all good and has her own goals. I don't think she is bad I just think that she was so despret to get of off train that she didn't really think about concequences it show how people can get really despret to just get out of a horrible situation. And her rudeness make ssence because she was basicly a slave her entire life it is really realistic. If u are reading this sorry for the MT rant and I think yore take is really interasting.
@@irhaddedovic678 I agree with what you say about MT but the show itself never goes into what makes MT a good or a bad person, it just delves into the themes of her being considered a person in the first place. I dont mind MT having to do drastic things for the sake of her escape because the show itself doesnt want to treat morality as the big theme. You can tell its one of the minor themes throughout the show, but that could also be said about any cartoon that takes itself seriously. Killing is wrong and would usually paint any character as villainous, but then what if it is for "righteous" reasons? IT doesnt really delve into that because I dont think the writers wanted to take a stance on that situation. By letting it go, MT can earn her happy ending and no questions about murder and morality have to be adressed. I dont see the show not properly adressing morality as a bad thing, it was a creators choice.
@@FlippySuper U just sumed up my thoughts perfectly. She did what she had in the emotional bad state but ur right morality is not a big theme her. Tnx for replaying.
My morality lies with a simple rule; Be selfless without loosing yourself, and be selfish if your problems seem too big.(or something like that) Informed by Matthew 7:3 of the bible. My moral/ethical background is also informed by the law of Jante, as it very much teaches humility. To not think yourself better or superior to anyone else, even if you are.
it's beautiful...and so spot on. quite on the mark about, well, morality, specially given the fact that it doesn't work the same way for everyone, that's why I think every passenger must have a different experience. I think ultimatley it's about empathy though.
I think Steven Universe is just too vague. I mean, I sorta picked up that it's kinda a escapist narrative, and doesn't hold consequences for characters. People talk about the Diamonds but I'm more salty about Pearl manipulating Connie, and how Garnet lets Steven handle it instead of doing it herself. She doesn't seem to be aware that she let Pearl off the hook, then became Pearl's victim herself. The morale implications of the show are terrible, but the show isn't upfront about those implications much either. Part of why I prefer Infinity Train is that it's easy to understand. It's honest. I think most shows are more honest than Steven Universe but Infinity Train goes farther and harder. Darker even. To face darkness, you either grow and change or die. ...just like a certain someone in Infinity Train season 3! Hahaha!
I love Infinity Train and this is the best video about it I have seen on this website. Why did it take me three and a half months to find this and why doesn't it have more views?
Garjo I guess since it isn’t theorizing about the lore of the show or in a top 10 list form, It’s not being recommended as often. But feel free to share it around if you want to help expose it to more people! Best wishes
0:50 i think "responsibility" is the keyword there. That doesnt mean trying to push your personal agenda, or to teach kids what YOU think is morally correct, it means trying to not teach kids things that are immoral, in my opinion. A sort of avoidance more than encouraging them to seek out morality. This is of course, when the audience is for kids. For teens+ i think its okay to push that a little, show a character that is immoral, lets them be that, because thats just how life is. Push your agenda, if its not for kids i dont care.
You have created an amazing video about a show that’s already amazing, and I’m also happy someone’s talking about what I’m thinking when watch the show. Thank you man
great video! I really appreciate your editing, it is of a much higher standard than most channels your size. On an other note, do you still know the music used during the segment about some philosophers? (around the 6 minute mark)
Thank you very much! A number of tracks that I used were some of the unused soundtracks that Chrome Canyon composed for the show. This specific song is titled "Baroque Theme" which you can listen to in this compilation video here: ua-cam.com/video/yo5ePKNHLcU/v-deo.html
I wonder, what would happen if a passenger derailed the train? Destroyed it even? What then does morality hold when the journey through life itself it stopped and silenced?
11:31 this is what really got me hooked on this video. This entire segment about rambling on and scrambling to find moral meaning behind a show that is shown to have a very complex network of ideologies and philosophies. The train isn't absolutely morally sound, and neither are people. We make mistakes, and like you said, even good intentions can lead to devastating consequences. Struggling to find meaning in general is an entire problem all on its own. I don't know exactly what is was about this segment that hit me so hard. Maybe it was the static in the background showing that when you think about these kinds of things you're pretty much going down a rabbit hole almost too deep and bottomless for humans to comprehend. Perhaps it was the point behind all of this? That we can contemplate and ponder the meanings of life and yet we may still never find an answer we desire. Or maybe it's the fact that *we've been there.* At least, I have. I've gone down dangerous roads of overthinking, questioning morality, life, the meaning of existence, and why it matters. It took a huge toll on my mental health. All of this questioning and thinking made me forget that *It's okay to not have the answer.* *It's okay to just live life.* Thinking isn't bad. Philosophy and morality aren't borderline unhealthy. It's a fascinating thing to ponder. But when you take it too far and question things that you know are just going to lead you down a dark road of "what ifs" "how comes" and just "whys" in general. I'm sure I'm making no sense at this point. Or wasn't from the beginning. Yeah I'm beginning to realize that what I was talking about or what you meant probably wasn't even CLOSE to what I thought. And uhhhh That's okay. If you are still reading this... thanks for putting up with my bullshit. And I'm sorry xD
What an amazing and interesting video! There is so much to analyze in this show, so much to learn! Thanks for the video, I am always so impressed by how much we can take from modern cartoons
Probably because as this video shows, while we can fit moral philosophies into categories, those categories have their limits to how we view the world.
since you mentioned religion i'm just going to say religion is good, but blindly following religion is not. like any morality system it's not enough that your parents followed it or that society expects it for you. you have to find the truth for yourself and choose whether to follow it or not.
You wanna talk morality? Let's talk particularly about "Lake". She might be the worst character on the show. She's a rude, aggressive, selfish, self centered brat and remains so during her entire existence. She pissed and moaned in Season 1 about how bad she had it being Tulip's reflection without giving a single thought to the fact that she only exists at all due to Tulip's existence. Then, after she TRICKS Tulip into her prison and tries to escape the show has the BALLS to convince us we should be empathetic to this little abomination. And fine, so at the end of that episode she's living her own life on the train now free from Tulip, whatever I guess. At least she's not doing anyone or anything else any harm. But then Season 2 rolls around and takes her bullshit to a whole new level. Her new goal is now to get off the train, even though it's literally infinite, and somewhere down the line probably has dozens of cars that could simulate Earth culture. But no, she decides she needs to escape, to a place she's never known much less even been, all in search of this vaunted "freedom". Her arc in Season 2 should have been about realizing that sometimes there are things that are simply beyond us. She could have realized how good it felt to help Jesse on his way and gone to help others realize their own flaws. In this way she could have realize freedom wasn't what she wanted, neither was choice. What she really wanted was companionship. And don't you even begin to tell me that's not what this was about because Jesse. And fine, if she doesn't go back to the train itself maybe she goes back to the chrome car, to continue to watch over Jesse from the mirror universe, that way it can have that bitter-sweet vibe. I mean how bitter-sweet would it have been if she became "Lake" by Jesse looking into the Lake and seeing her there, knowing she'll always be close by? But no, because you have to have your saccharine everyone's perfectly happy ending, we get her transported into the real god damn world. Are you shitting me?! Did she even begin to consider any of the consequences of her actions? What will the world think of her? How will she survive? Will the many interested governments hunt her? What about Jesse? He's in contact with this thing what would happen to him? Or his family for that matter? Are they going to house her? How the hell will they react to a god damn woman made of chrome? This and all the other things Mace brought up before he and his partner Steve were BRUTALLY MURDERED by Lake and Alan Dracula, will not be considered or even answered. She was selfish beginning to end, the story just eventually caved and gave in to the demands of this self-centered chrome twat.
Lake's actions stem from being chased by people who claim she is not worthy of her own life. She tricked Tulip to try and get out and part of Tulip's improvement was accepting that her selfishness hurt people she wasn't even aware could be hurt by them. Lake spent the rest of her time on the show being hunted down by Mace and Sieve, for the crime of wanting a life of her own. Saying that Lake 'should' have just watched over Jesse from the Mirror World misses the entire point of Lake's arc: that you SHOULD be allowed to be who you want to be. Now, Mace is correct in what he says during the Wasteland. But even then, the implications is that it is better to live under an unfair system, where you are treated as a slave then wind up having your identity stripped or harm those who try to escape rather than at least attempt something now. Note, that the only time Mace lost his temper was when Lake suggested that the only reason he became a Flec was to save his own sense of identity. You also suggest Lake murdering Mace and Sieve is a bad thing, despite the fact that she'd avoided openly attacking until that moment: Mace fully intended to kill her on the Train's wheels and Sieve tried to goad One-One into killing her as well. Lake did not want to fight, much less kill them, but she was left with very little choice. Is Lake a good person? I think she's a kind, but scared, person who's committed bad things in order to save herself. Is Mace a bad person? I think he has good intentions but is ultimately a selfish man who was likely just doing what his job is. Trying to boil down both Lake to 'self-centred' Chrome twat for wanting to be her own person just because she's done shitty things goes against the point of that season. Please don't take this as an attack on your position, I just want to consider another view of Lake and Mace's dynamic
@@sophiemason8444 Then maybe Lake could have explained that instead of simply tricking Tulip into taking her place? Not like your average person would even consider their own reflection have a separate sentience. And she wasn't being chased down until she broke the law of GOD DAMN REALITY. But that's not an arc. Cause she ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT WAY. The arc should have been some thing are simply beyond your power to achieve. Telling kids that you can do anything is a nice sentiment but hardly realistic, but because Lake wants it more the world should literally bend to her whim? Bunk. Because Lake couldn't answer Mace either when he brought up his points about Lake living on Earth. She didn't care about consequences she just wanted to "be free" even though she barely knows what that even means or what she'd even do with that freedom. Yeah well that's sort of how murder usually goes down. You can't really do it until you have an opportunity now can you? Lake had to run because she was weaponless, had virtually no way to stop them, but the moment she had the ability to wheel Mace? She did it and watched him die while his life-fluids splashed onto her face. I mean let me really describe this to you, cause at least Steve went quick. She took Mace and GROUND HIM UP... SLOWLY.... PAINFULLY. There's self defense and then there's straight up revenge-style murder. Lake is not a good person because she only cares about what she wants and damn the consequences. Mace is not a good or bad person he's trying to keep reality from literally falling to pieces. The point of the season should have been that some things are simply beyond your ability or control to change and it felt like at the last minute the story just caves in tot he temptation of having a overly sweet good ending. I do consider it. And I think you're wrong.
@@thefvguy5648 Funny how you say it's faulty at best and yet can't refute over half the points I bring up. You know trapping Tulip, her lack of an arc, literally ANY of the points I or Mace make about how Lake would even begin to function in the real world. But yeah, I'm real "faulty" with my reasoning. Oh and by the way, I said I "thought" they were wrong because while I disagreed heavily with most everything in Book 2, I still allowed such an opinion to exist, I just in no way believe in it. Wanna know how I know that it was revenge and not self defense? She looked right at him as he died. His life-juice hitting her face as she watched him die PAINFULLY, SLOWLY, DELIBERATELY. And I didn't say she wouldn't be shaken up after, I mean it was her first kill after all, but it gets easier, just ask Steve. No, she doesn't. She wants to help Jessie and that's it. Same reason why she doesn't try to go back and help out the Apex kids. She dosn't give a damn about any of the other passengers, only Jesse and only cause she spent so long with him. That could have and should have been her growth, but it wasn't. No, the lesson in Book 1 was how things around us will change and for better or worse we can't stop things around us from becoming different, we can only adapt to those changes and make the best of them, things can't be as they were. Book 2 should have worked how some things in the present cannot be changed no matter what we do and to make the best of them. Then Book 3 could have been about the future in some form and we would have had thematical resonance. Past, present, future.
@@thefvguy5648 Bias? You know you're defending murder right? I mean you're trying REALLY hard to justify killing someone, desperately so even. And maybe that's what really gets your goat here. That a character you actually liked is suddenly thrown into such an ugly light, and you didn't like what you saw. I didn't say your points were faulty. I said mine were not. And even if AD took out Steve, not like Lake gave even a second thought to it, just an obstacle out of the way. You still haven't refuted anything else outside of the Apex stuff, and you accidentally proven me right about how she doesn't care about them and she only cares about herself and her two friends and damn everyone and everything else. She's a god damn sociopath you child, if it sounds like I'm talking down to you it's cause I am, cause that's how you have to talk to children.
@@thefvguy5648 No, I consider you a child because your obvious tactics of calling someone arrogant and ignorant and the like are the views of a child. You characterized me first, saying things like "arrogant" "ignorant" "immature". You could barely do a thing against points I've made so you're using ad hominem, trying to make me out as a bad person and therefor a person whose argument is invalid, no matter what points I make. In other words, attacking me, not my argument, child. Anything I've said in regards to you as a person has only been in retaliation. It's why I didn't do so with the first person who replied. But you threw the first stone. You are free game, child. Her "flaws" make her a shit person, kiddo. And just because she didn't enjoy it, another thing highly debatable frankly, doesn't stop it from being murder, child. The real hard truth of all this, kiddo, is that you don't want to talk. You want to try and "save" people from realizing the points that I've made are perfectly valid and the ones you've made are as weak as the strawman you're trying to dress me up as.
The darkest thing about the train is the fact that Amelia's trauma was so bad that she'd rather stay on the train forever and never face the truth than try and let go of her past.
I thought the darkest thing was Lake literally killing a guy by pushing his body into rolling steel wheels and his blood and innards splattered on her
Yea ape sounds
@@Zizi-yx5gm Psst dude. Put a spoiler warning.
@@frauleinzuckerguss1906 if u are up to date than u knowe its the indiana jones and the last crusade dead scene
@@t84t748748t6 The finale was freaking insane, am I right?
This is what I love about infinity train. It never said that growing and being a better person is easy or is as simple as the number system makes it out to be. It shows that while there's a goal to be better, the path you take and what you need to do to get there is different for everyone. I believe that infinity train perfectly shows the importance of independent thought and embracing of difference and chaos. From Tulip learning how to control and move the train cars that once trapped her, to Lake finding a loophole to be free from the train, and even Grace in book 3 learning to respect and care for the denizens she once thought emotionless lines of code. The entire show sets up strict rules and systems, and shows its characters breaking free from them through helping each other and learning to look past what they're taught are just facts of life. Tulip looked past viewing the train as an all powerful anomaly and learned to see it as a machine. Lake learned to look past the numbers and to realize that no matter what the train thinks, they deserve to be free. Grace learned to look past what she and so many others were taught to think about denizens and the conductor, and I can't wait to see what she learns in the final few episodes.
I'm really glad to have a show like Infinity Train. It's now more important than ever to teach children and teens watching the importance of independent thought, skepticism, and holding peoples well-being and safety/freedom above rules or systems. It's had me challenge and change my view of morality and how there really can't be any catch-all rules, because everybody is different. It's way of embracing individuality over conformity/complacency really makes this show amazing and so fun to theorize and analyze lol. Amazing video!
Aw thank you. Whatever happens with season 3 and beyond, I'm glad it can prompt such discussions.
The idea of the Train as a metaphor for life fits pretty well. For Tulip, the Train is an experience tailored to the passenger, designed as a playground for their own personal growth. I feel this is the way almost all of us feel about life at some point, especially when were kids. Some people still live like this, it's an easy thing to slip into.
An interesting parallel is game design. In the same way that art creates an experience for you to convey a message, games do the same but through action and choices (or at least the illusion there-of). In the same sense, the Train is almost like a giant tactile video-game, presenting moral lessons through it's puzzles and problems.
@@DakNJaxter A good observation! But I'd like to point out that either view can dehumanize the passengers of the train, and is ignorant of the sentient ecosystem of the train as a whole. The passengers may be stars of our show, but the train inhabitants deserve personhood.
@@Guruc13exactly that’s what book 2 and 3 are about
@@Lumberjack_king Quite right!
@@Guruc13 even book 4 humanized the denizens though it wasn’t the main focus ,book 1 did have the turtle episode which humanized the denizens kinda by showing how 1 1 can be cold and uncaring when listening to his programming
I'm kinda impressed with all the works cited. Lot of people on the platform think video essays are a free lunch.
Limey Lassen I try my best to cite all of my sources in all of my videos (sometimes I haven't done as good a job). I talk about some lofty concepts like ethics and philosophy and literary theory in a lot of my videos. Though the discussion here are introductory by design, and subsequently don't go too deep into the complex topics so I can introduce more people to these concepts.
Showing my sources is a pretty good way to let people expand from the material taught here and find out more for themselves
Personally, I have always seen the train as "Jumanji on rails", a teacher very eager to give you a harsh leson but not that interested to know if you learn it
Dang, that's a pretty good description
I don't think the numbers equal their morality, but more so their personal growth or how content they are with themselves/their peace of mind. People with pent up baggage and insecurities, like those we see on the train, who are reluctant to change for the better will only see their number go up.
Right. When Jesse comes back to the train for Lake, his problem is he wants Lake off the train. There was no question of his morality. There was unease in his mind and that’s how he returned to the train. Of course there’s the question of how the heck he managed to summon the train purposefully like that, but regardless.
@@ZackeryCochran Plot
0:55 On Steven Universe, I still maintain that even with some episodes having bits where the moral implications could be questionable, I'm mostly just impressed they *went there* and got those conversations going.
With Infinity Train it feels to me like there's a sort of core value to each season. With the first, trauma. How do you react when major events that aren't even your fault disrupt your life? The second, identity. As Iroh put it, "who are you, and what do you want?" And with the third, I'd say empathy.
The opening song in book 3 is about empathy, so I’d say that’s a good guess for that one.
Dude that was so well put together- there arent many videos on infinity train but this really does take the cake
I'm glad you enjoyed it! I always like being able to bring insight into shows and topics that aren't discussed as often.
Hello there!
D..did you just say cake
Zia Chung
Don’t start. 🤣
In regards to the example with Amelia, and in wake of Simon in season 3, I think that’s it’s important to remember that we all as people are responsible for our own actions and their consequences, and that is the logic the train runs on. The train may have brought Amelia on hours with the intention of helping her, but she was the one who made the choices that brought her were she is in the series, when there were always many options a head of her. When a person is making toxic choices or trying to change and improve, it is up to them what they do in a situation. And if they continue down a path that is hurting them instead of changing they may end up destroying themselves. With that said what the heck is there from keeping people from dying by all the dangerous stuff on the train? That’s kind of a red flag that makes you wonder if the train itself knows what’s best for the passengers. Still the only thing from the train that we’ve seen able to kill people or the ghoms. There is a theory that a ghom can kill you much faster with a higher number though, so that it’s always safer to bring your number down but even so. The point is that self improvement is a personal journey, and the “right” way for each passenger, or the key to a lower number, means making decisions that keep you from masking the same problems for yourself. Maybe. Thanks for coming to my ted talk. K bye.
I understand that everyone is responsible for their actions, but isn't it more responsible the environment they grew up in. If someone grows up in an environment where everything is wrong, and they do what they were taught, how are they supposed to know what's actually right, other form of life.
Simon wasn't the only one to blame. They were kids put in a hard and unknown situation, and they thought what they were doing was okay. And how were they supposed to know that it wasn't if they didn't knew anything else about the train. By the time hazel appeared it was to late for him,he became a kinda narcissist person bc of the toxic environment/ experiences he had on the train.
For people like simon (or other characters like Zuko or catra) does it apply consequentialism or deontology ethics?
@@verdeamarillo4979 given that characters like Zuko, Catra, and Simon are kids who are more in survival mode and that is why their actions leave room for redemption, I don’t know if consequentialism or deontology are the right ways of looking at them entirely. I guess if I had to pick I would lead more to consequentialism being the reason for retribution given that when Zuko, Catra, or Simon made a choice they were acting in self interest, however it could be argued deontology since they all believed at the time that it was the right thing to do to keep themselves safe or be accepted. See, I guess I look at it more from a psychology/therapy angle than a ethics angle and maybe that’s a shortcoming on my part of debating this. But I also believe that in the cases of Catra and Zuko it was difficult because their environment started off bad and they thought they had to be a certain way to be happy. But through good support systems or through looking at the consequences of their own actions and how it made them feel, they on their own made choices to change and do the right thing. Though there was also an environment change in both cases: (Zuko going back home as a prince and Catra on Horde Prime’s ship). I feel that in Simon’s case the thing about the train is that it IS meant to be a safe environment that gets you out of the bad one and helps teach you how to change. However it isn’t perfect, and Simon and Grace when combined were not good coping supports for the other, but maybe they were enablers. They both had the chance to confront their choices and change, but Simon made choices that kept him from changing. I believe Simon could have been redeemed and deserved a chance, but I also see why he wasn’t.
Infinity Train would make an amazing VR adventure. The life metaphors would be so woke in a simulated procedurally generated train game.
Rigz Movie Diaries or perhaps it could be a tabletop RPG... someone should get one that
The world's coolest rougelike
OH MY GOD YES
im pretty sure i heard there was meant to be one somewhere but im not sure, if the series ever starts again, there might be hope. for now we can only try to make a vr game ourselves.
Far as I can tell, the train picks up people to solve a specific issue. The number represents how far your actions are pushing towards or away from dealing with said issue. As such, it’s not exactly designed to take morality into account-only growth. This is why Jesse got on and off the train so quickly the second time; One-One and Jesse’s interaction about whether Jesse had a reason to be there would imply so, at least. It’s also quite important to recognize that while Lake killed the Fleks, it was never her intention. She did not want to hurt anyone, she just wanted to be free. So anyone who points to that as “how Steven Universe should have handled it” are missing some very important points about Lake’s character, and by extension her actions taken within her character arc. Hell, even when she was handcuffed to that asshole, she was never interested in explicitly harming him-only wanting him to leave her alone. Then obviously other stuff happened. But it’s important to understand that if Lake had her way, no one would have gotten hurt. Not Jesse, not the Fleks.
Meanwhile, Grace and Simon’s arcs are all about reckoning with consequences and how, no matter what you tell yourself, when you hurt others it hurts you as well; because at some point you’ll want something, and others will eventually decide they aren’t okay with you having it. Even the train itself falls victim to this-in not caring about the passengers themselves, but only whether or not they sort out their issues, it left itself open to passengers making their own rules that cause further destruction.
A “Means to an end” mentality is always going to cause problems no one is interested in facing, least of all those who hold on to that mentality. Justification is a very tricky, slippery thing.
It could also be easily argued that Grace’s fate is equivalent to that of the Diamonds: a morally corrupt leader responsible for large-scale death of sentient life attempting to reconcile a new worldview imparted on them by someone they wanted to be close to being given a chance to lead their followers in a different direction, and being allowed to not because they deserve it or because they’ve made up for everything, but mostly because they are the only ones with the actual power to change the way things work within the system they controlled for so long.
Morality is a dangerously fluid concept, it’s true, and every decision will have consequences regardless of intent-but more often than not, cruelty begets cruelty, and kindness begets kindness. For me personally, that makes morality quite clear cut. Plus I consider how I act towards others to be less about what they do or do not deserve, and more about the kind of person I want to be.
The fascinating thing is that the train itself commits to being a neutral party, which plays by very specific rules-rules that benefit a specific kind of person. But any system that refuses to change in the face of any new developments or data is a broken system.
The true villain of Infinity Train imo is the Train itself. It'd be one thing if it offered a journey to people who hit blocks in their life to overcome their problems, but it essentially abducts them and then puts them in life-threatening situations, and while that worked out great for some passengers, there are also cases like Grace and Simon. Simon's parents will never know what happened to their son, and even if Grace returns home, she'll have lost so much of her childhood there. Hell, just look at how young the children of the Apex were. And it's not just the Denizens that passengers have to watch out for, but other passengers as well.
As Lelouch from Code Geass would say, "Forcing your good intentions on others is no different than an evil act."
The whole video is based on the statement that the purpose of the train is to make passengers a better person, but to my understanding (and from what one-one says at the beginning of season two if I remember correctly) the train's purpose is to learn to deal with a problem passengers are facing before they get on the train. Tulip is learning to view from the eyes of other, because she doesn't understand that her parents aren't divorcing because they are mean and want to hurt her but the opposite for exemple. The exemple that 'proves' it is that the train does not take Miranda (is it the name of 'the conductor' of season 1 I already forgot) to make her a better person; the grief of her lost husband is not wrong and the fact that she wants to end her life isn't immoral. The train want to help her to being in peace with her loss, not making her a better person (even if we know how it ends).
In my opinion, the serie doesn't really ask questions of morality and instead discuss more about different personal conflicts. Putting yourself into other's perspective : Tulip. Denial : Miranda. Asserting your identity : MT and Jake... That's what Infinity train is about for me, and that's why Infinity Train makes the bold choice of putting the focus on very different characters with each season. That's pretty much all I have to say about it
The S1 conductor was named Amelia
@@VanNessy97 thanks for reminding me :)
"Not everything makes sense
Not everything has to"
This series desperately needs more attention. So glad to see someone discuss about it, hope it gets more seasons by the time I post this comment
This perfectly described why I adore Infinity Train. These moral and existential questions are why I particularly love Book 2. The dialogue in episode 8 between Mace and MT is amazing. To what extent of free will should denizens have? Why should they be othered? That's why I love how One-One becomes stuck in a loop on trying to figure out what to do with MT. Even more fascinating is that the solution he accepts of her "having a number" is based on a lie. That further represents how imperfect reality is, so I really loved your line that we need to "embrace the chaos of the universe." I'm very glad to have seen this video and am happy to have found this channel.
As a geek for morality conflict in cartoons, I LOVE this video.
Also, thanks for using my remix for Lake’s theme in the beginning of the video. I really appreciate it! 🤩
THE WRITING, EDITING, EVERYTHING IN THIS VIDEO IS SO PERFECT!! You literally did the best description of Infinity Train in a short video essay!!!
We need more shows taking this risks like Infinity Train, with a deep storytelling that doesnt judge their target audience's intelligence and instead leave us thinking after each episode
10:40 The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or so I'm told.
How do you not have like a million subs?!? This is soooo well done! I’m sad Steven Universe is over, but hopefully this cartoon will fill the void.
If these past weeks have shown me anything, there will always be an abundance of great media as long as you open yourself to it.
FINALLY thank you for blessing my life with an Infinity Train analysis. The different perspectives of morality really bugged me a lot when i was watching Infinity Train. Train creator or Mirror Dimension authorities can't possibly be morally perfect, so how can we expect any of them to govern the world or other people? It really pushed for the importance for independence and growth of the characters.
Ironically if a God created the train and the entire system eventually resulted in the growth of all major characters, you could consider that a success. But that's just me being a little more fatalistic (:
I think the Übermensch thing you said about Grace was more about her subordinate guy because he got angry at Jesse for choosing his number going down over them while Grace seemed sad that she lost a soul. I think she truly believes to be doing right and wants to "help" the passengers, while the denizens are just computer programming to her that she doesn't care about. But the other guy actively treated them bad and wanted to force Jesse to adopt their lifestyle.
well ive been trying not to get my quarantine to-watch list any longer, but guess i have no choice 🤷🏻♀️ explorations on morality mixed with interesting art and concept design is exactly my go-to stuff
Casi R. If you haven't watched infinity train yet, it's a pretty quick watch with 20 11-minute episodes. So you would be able to finish it within a couple of hours.
Did you ever watch it?
It’s confirmed: Infinity Train is ACAB. Hell yeah.
Heck to the Flecs
Henry Kathman Heck yeah, heck the flecks.
nameless rando “extreme” yeah okay
@@chromiumex2384 im sorry but what does ACAB mean
@@thatamericangamer7230 All Cops Are Bastards
It's pretty funny watching the Apex segment of this video after Book Three: The Cult of the Conductor. Still a really great video and a great talk about morality and discovering your own path of betterment.
Great video! A central point of the Infinity Train is that it isn't about setting a universal moral system, or even helping people become their best self, it is about (in one-one's words) "solving problems". First, it's ideological rather than action or consequence based. Numbers are shown changing as people talk or think about things, even before they've acted on any decision, or set off any side effects. Second, it's specific. A person can reach zero about the problem that brought them to the train, but still not be morally ideal, and still have other problems (as seen with Jesse).
This was amazing! It's one of the best video essays i've ever seen. Excellent music choice, amazing visuals and a very well written script while still being 15 minutes!
Aw thanks! While I know I have a propensity for talking about things for a long time (see also: my other videos) it does feel satisfying to nail all my thoughts in a shorter amount of time.
Best Infinity Train analysis I've ever seen
A comet passes by the Earth one day, leaving a perfectly straight line as it's trail. However, to us on Earth, it's looks as if it had curved towards then away from us.
*That is the Infinity Train.*
A straight line so flawed by our point of view, yet so perfect outside of it. The objective truth seen through our subjective eyes.
My wish upon the Infinity Train is to learn how to not only love myself for who I truly am, but to also learn to advocate for myself and recognize just how much I truly deserve.
i think the way the numbers work is at least in part the passenger's subconscious. Maybe not the number total but when the numbers go up or down. it's the passengers themselves judging on their own morality. (spoilers for book 3)
it's suggested Simon killed nulls before So why was his numbers going insane when he was about to wheel tuba? It's because he spent enough time to know she was as much of a person as him, it was at that point he knew he was killing a person and not just breaking a toy, he knew just how wrong what he was doing was which was reflected in his number
well put, friend! Accepting and realizing the truth no matter how painful that pill's hard to swallow, remembering and truly knowing our past to carry on, acknowledging and embracing mistakes of our own and/ or others to learn from them. And being aware that we each have our own problems but there's no shame in having one nor is it bad to have people or sources to help us recover, get over it, and become a better person if possible in the end.
Oh, now THIS is gonna be good!
Yep! It was! It was even better than I thought!
Cartoon Network: "See's Maces death in Infinity Train."
Also Cartoon Network: YeP, ThiS Is FoR kIdS!
this made me cry in the best way
I like how the animation style gives you old style and new style bind together. Like how Over The Garden Wall did.
The show needs to be brought back and have it’s last four books released! #FinishInfinityTrain!
did anyone else get chills with that "off the rails" transition?
This is an amazing review i love Infinity train! But calling Tulip who was neglected selfish isnt correct. She wasnt selfish. She didnt understand what was going on and merely wished to deal with her pain alone.
I was always a bit iffy on the mirror world system. Because as you just said the denizens can't usually enter the real world but Tulip loosing her reflection was still seen in the real world. But that would mean that the reflections and mirror world exist in our world and thus are not exclusive to the train like the other phenomenoms. It's quite confusing.
5:10 This makes a lot of sense actually. I think this is how the train operates. Ive had this theory for a bit that somewhat lines up with this. What if the train is selfish? It seems how you treat denizens usually has a bigger effect on the number than anything else, upsetting denizens tends to make the number go up, almost every time. Sure you have edge cases like when a denizen is upset because they cant do something that upsets another, (peri) but just as a general rule, on top of the general morality, the train seems to favor the denizens by punishing passengers for doing bad things to them. I think book 3 makes this quite evident as the apex is based around getting a higher number by destroying the lives of different denizens in various cars. If you think about it, yes its bad, but it doesnt necessarily mean these people are becoming worse people, they are just doing what they have been doing for however long, and i doubt that would do much to make you a worse person after you had been doing it for a while already. Especially if you have already wholeheartedly dehumanized these entities. And yet their numbers continue to climb.
The train definitely has a base set of assumptions. It assumes that everyone that enters the train wants to tackle their issues (if they believe they have any), everyone that enters wants to confront their problems this way, or that everyone that enters the train will even believe the train can be interacted with in the first place, and that, even if all of those first three things are possible, that those who enter will have the physical and mental capability to survive the train long enough to learn and grow. If I'm correct about those assumptions the train probably assumed the Apex were not bad people, but was perfectly aware of what they were doing and were punishing them for lack of growth.
@@dreamythesheep hmm, yeah that might be the case. The train might be punishing them for their lack of growth, rather than punishing them for plunging further into their issues. Which does make sense, when Tulip was about to leave adicus her number went up, not because she was getting in a worse state, but because she was going back on the progress she had made up to that point.
@@Yipper64 It might also be a mix depending on the issue. Its very likely that Tulip's number could have increased if in tandem with attempting to leave Atticus her desperation to go back home led her to double down and thus the train punished her for her selfishness. Of course this is again under the assumption that the train does actually help people with their issues and by the time they reached zero they have arrived at the point they can't give into the flaw that brought them on the train in the first place.
Such underrated guy
This infinity train vid is insanely good. This gave me a hole other perspective of this show. Keep on the cool vids
Glad you enjoyed it!
While I feel you bring up some interesting points, I don't really think the show brings up any themes of morality intentionally. I feel the way the show presents the train and its passengers isn't meant to have us question it that much. Mostly because the character's emotional issues on both shows end up being more about something personal to them more than the themes of how moral or not is the train and any action in it. MT is responsible for the murder of three people (the passenger she took out from the pod was confirmed dead by the creator on twitter) but the show doesn't really treat her actions as either disgusting or heroic, she just did what she needed to do to escape. If this show truly did have some underlying themes of morality and what makes a good person, they would not have overlooked something as big as that. But since it's not going for that, they don't go into it, and they don't have to. The first season was about how running away from your problems never leads to anything good, while the second season explored existentialism. These themes of morality you mention seem to me like more things that came up in your head after thinking about this show more than the actual themes explored in it. Which isn't a bad thing, its pretty cool that a cartoon was able to make you think this much about complicated themes, but I don't really think it's one of the main things the creators had in mind when making the show. They definitely talked about it a bit, but not as in-depth as you may think. Even the survivors like Grace arent really finding certain meaning to the train in the way you described, they just think that's how it operates. I also don't think her character is the typical "strength above feelings, that is what the train is about" archetype considering how she was shown to be kind to Jesse. And I find that the eventual conclusion of "it's ok as long as you have friends/companions along the way" is pretty weak if they really wanted to tackle all those themes.
I also feel that the second season made it perfectly clear that the train isn't really a good thing, it's straight up a madhouse where people are worse of than in the real world, and any enlightenment they might find is accidental instead of intentional. Jesse and MT escaped after breaking the rules of the train so there is no question that the train its fundamentally flawed to the core. But that's just my interpretation.
I agree with even tho I think there is some morality to the train second season really does explore more themes about right and wrong. I don't know about you but I love MT and how fun she is as a character how she is not all good and has her own goals. I don't think she is bad I just think that she was so despret to get of off train that she didn't really think about concequences it show how people can get really despret to just get out of a horrible situation. And her rudeness make ssence because she was basicly a slave her entire life it is really realistic. If u are reading this sorry for the MT rant and I think yore take is really interasting.
@@irhaddedovic678 I agree with what you say about MT but the show itself never goes into what makes MT a good or a bad person, it just delves into the themes of her being considered a person in the first place. I dont mind MT having to do drastic things for the sake of her escape because the show itself doesnt want to treat morality as the big theme. You can tell its one of the minor themes throughout the show, but that could also be said about any cartoon that takes itself seriously.
Killing is wrong and would usually paint any character as villainous, but then what if it is for "righteous" reasons? IT doesnt really delve into that because I dont think the writers wanted to take a stance on that situation. By letting it go, MT can earn her happy ending and no questions about murder and morality have to be adressed. I dont see the show not properly adressing morality as a bad thing, it was a creators choice.
@@FlippySuper U just sumed up my thoughts perfectly. She did what she had in the emotional bad state but ur right morality is not a big theme her. Tnx for replaying.
My morality lies with a simple rule; Be selfless without loosing yourself, and be selfish if your problems seem too big.(or something like that) Informed by Matthew 7:3 of the bible.
My moral/ethical background is also informed by the law of Jante, as it very much teaches humility. To not think yourself better or superior to anyone else, even if you are.
“How many have died....”
Me: “Well for starters...”
it's beautiful...and so spot on.
quite on the mark about, well, morality, specially given the fact that it doesn't work the same way for everyone, that's why I think every passenger must have a different experience.
I think ultimatley it's about empathy though.
It's so refreshing to see a video put together as well as this one, great job!
Omg, this show is already amazing, outstanding even!
But you just shattered a wall.
Thank you, this is some really good life advice.
I think Steven Universe is just too vague. I mean, I sorta picked up that it's kinda a escapist narrative, and doesn't hold consequences for characters. People talk about the Diamonds but I'm more salty about Pearl manipulating Connie, and how Garnet lets Steven handle it instead of doing it herself. She doesn't seem to be aware that she let Pearl off the hook, then became Pearl's victim herself. The morale implications of the show are terrible, but the show isn't upfront about those implications much either.
Part of why I prefer Infinity Train is that it's easy to understand. It's honest. I think most shows are more honest than Steven Universe but Infinity Train goes farther and harder. Darker even. To face darkness, you either grow and change or die.
...just like a certain someone in Infinity Train season 3! Hahaha!
I love Infinity Train and this is the best video about it I have seen on this website. Why did it take me three and a half months to find this and why doesn't it have more views?
Garjo I guess since it isn’t theorizing about the lore of the show or in a top 10 list form, It’s not being recommended as often. But feel free to share it around if you want to help expose it to more people! Best wishes
I am subbing. This was prolly the best Infinity Train video I've ever seen.
0:50 i think "responsibility" is the keyword there. That doesnt mean trying to push your personal agenda, or to teach kids what YOU think is morally correct, it means trying to not teach kids things that are immoral, in my opinion. A sort of avoidance more than encouraging them to seek out morality. This is of course, when the audience is for kids. For teens+ i think its okay to push that a little, show a character that is immoral, lets them be that, because thats just how life is. Push your agenda, if its not for kids i dont care.
You have created an amazing video about a show that’s already amazing, and I’m also happy someone’s talking about what I’m thinking when watch the show. Thank you man
great video! I really appreciate your editing, it is of a much higher standard than most channels your size. On an other note, do you still know the music used during the segment about some philosophers? (around the 6 minute mark)
Thank you very much! A number of tracks that I used were some of the unused soundtracks that Chrome Canyon composed for the show. This specific song is titled "Baroque Theme" which you can listen to in this compilation video here: ua-cam.com/video/yo5ePKNHLcU/v-deo.html
Best analysis of the show I have seen so far!
For a _good_ example of blue-orange see the warp spiders in _Perdido Street Station._
I wonder, what would happen if a passenger derailed the train? Destroyed it even? What then does morality hold when the journey through life itself it stopped and silenced?
Dude wow this gave me so many chills this was amazing!!! Just incredible job!!!
Wow, thank you!
The train pun at the beginning made me laugh when it seriously shouldn’t have, I think quarantine is getting to me-
#saveinfintytrain
Really great analysis, exploring many different types of thought without becoming overbearing. Very enjoyable.
I'm so glad this appeared on my recommendations. Excellent job!
Embrace the chaos. Everything is connected.
This deserves more views
truly one of the best video essays i've ever watched, great job:) i would love to hear your thoughts on adventure time
OMG. You're the same person who did that fantastic analysis of Over The Garden Wall.
This wideo is so The Good Place season 3. If you want moral dilemma that's the show!
Oh yeah, I actually started watching the Good Place a couple of months before writing this video, maybe it had an influence on this IDK
Shame this series got cancelled and won’t come back, it was a neat plot
Good work!
Thanks!
Where is the meaning behind any of this?! 12:20 *famous footwear ad*
Interesting
Ambercat993 Ads be like that sometimes
Any plans for an update on this analysis for book 3?
They say that Infinity Train is graphic...but I can do them one better by having nightmares because of the ending of Courage the Cowardly Dog
11:31 this is what really got me hooked on this video. This entire segment about rambling on and scrambling to find moral meaning behind a show that is shown to have a very complex network of ideologies and philosophies. The train isn't absolutely morally sound, and neither are people. We make mistakes, and like you said, even good intentions can lead to devastating consequences. Struggling to find meaning in general is an entire problem all on its own. I don't know exactly what is was about this segment that hit me so hard. Maybe it was the static in the background showing that when you think about these kinds of things you're pretty much going down a rabbit hole almost too deep and bottomless for humans to comprehend. Perhaps it was the point behind all of this? That we can contemplate and ponder the meanings of life and yet we may still never find an answer we desire. Or maybe it's the fact that *we've been there.* At least, I have. I've gone down dangerous roads of overthinking, questioning morality, life, the meaning of existence, and why it matters. It took a huge toll on my mental health. All of this questioning and thinking made me forget that
*It's okay to not have the answer.*
*It's okay to just live life.*
Thinking isn't bad. Philosophy and morality aren't borderline unhealthy. It's a fascinating thing to ponder. But when you take it too far and question things that you know are just going to lead you down a dark road of "what ifs" "how comes" and just "whys" in general.
I'm sure I'm making no sense at this point. Or wasn't from the beginning.
Yeah I'm beginning to realize that what I was talking about or what you meant probably wasn't even CLOSE to what I thought.
And uhhhh
That's okay.
If you are still reading this... thanks for putting up with my bullshit. And I'm sorry xD
4:42 *starts talking about ubermensch while showing GLaDOS* I see you are a man of good taste
Most Evil AIs like Glados are a great example of this trope, but you gotta respect the queen
@@HenryKathman GLaDOS is the GOAT
damn... this show man
How can a video like this get so little views? Outrageous
This is such a good video. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
What an amazing and interesting video! There is so much to analyze in this show, so much to learn! Thanks for the video, I am always so impressed by how much we can take from modern cartoons
Great video keep the good work
That's not what blue-orange morality is.
This is a PSA: To beg the question is not the same thing as to raise the question.
Thank you.
That's a really good analysis video. 👍
I hope everyone can help to bring infinity train back ✌️
infinity train is basically wilderness behavior
Me: watching a video about the morality of something to see what it’s like to have a morality
why the fuck do i completely agree with completely opposing concepts of morality?
Probably because as this video shows, while we can fit moral philosophies into categories, those categories have their limits to how we view the world.
since you mentioned religion i'm just going to say religion is good, but blindly following religion is not. like any morality system it's not enough that your parents followed it or that society expects it for you. you have to find the truth for yourself and choose whether to follow it or not.
really good and thought provoking vid
Someone is gonna make a speed run for the fastest per;son to take their number down
Epic video
Started to get dark around 11:30
Watched full ads for this quality content.
Nice essay.
Makin me think
Your conclusion supports relativism over absolutism. In terms of morality, absolutes work best.
8:59
Plato? More like Play-Doh
Anyone else read it as mortality
You wanna talk morality? Let's talk particularly about "Lake". She might be the worst character on the show.
She's a rude, aggressive, selfish, self centered brat and remains so during her entire existence.
She pissed and moaned in Season 1 about how bad she had it being Tulip's reflection without giving a single thought to the fact that she only exists at all due to Tulip's existence. Then, after she TRICKS Tulip into her prison and tries to escape the show has the BALLS to convince us we should be empathetic to this little abomination. And fine, so at the end of that episode she's living her own life on the train now free from Tulip, whatever I guess. At least she's not doing anyone or anything else any harm.
But then Season 2 rolls around and takes her bullshit to a whole new level. Her new goal is now to get off the train, even though it's literally infinite, and somewhere down the line probably has dozens of cars that could simulate Earth culture. But no, she decides she needs to escape, to a place she's never known much less even been, all in search of this vaunted "freedom".
Her arc in Season 2 should have been about realizing that sometimes there are things that are simply beyond us. She could have realized how good it felt to help Jesse on his way and gone to help others realize their own flaws. In this way she could have realize freedom wasn't what she wanted, neither was choice. What she really wanted was companionship. And don't you even begin to tell me that's not what this was about because Jesse. And fine, if she doesn't go back to the train itself maybe she goes back to the chrome car, to continue to watch over Jesse from the mirror universe, that way it can have that bitter-sweet vibe. I mean how bitter-sweet would it have been if she became "Lake" by Jesse looking into the Lake and seeing her there, knowing she'll always be close by?
But no, because you have to have your saccharine everyone's perfectly happy ending, we get her transported into the real god damn world. Are you shitting me?! Did she even begin to consider any of the consequences of her actions? What will the world think of her? How will she survive? Will the many interested governments hunt her? What about Jesse? He's in contact with this thing what would happen to him? Or his family for that matter? Are they going to house her? How the hell will they react to a god damn woman made of chrome? This and all the other things Mace brought up before he and his partner Steve were BRUTALLY MURDERED by Lake and Alan Dracula, will not be considered or even answered. She was selfish beginning to end, the story just eventually caved and gave in to the demands of this self-centered chrome twat.
Lake's actions stem from being chased by people who claim she is not worthy of her own life. She tricked Tulip to try and get out and part of Tulip's improvement was accepting that her selfishness hurt people she wasn't even aware could be hurt by them.
Lake spent the rest of her time on the show being hunted down by Mace and Sieve, for the crime of wanting a life of her own. Saying that Lake 'should' have just watched over Jesse from the Mirror World misses the entire point of Lake's arc: that you SHOULD be allowed to be who you want to be.
Now, Mace is correct in what he says during the Wasteland. But even then, the implications is that it is better to live under an unfair system, where you are treated as a slave then wind up having your identity stripped or harm those who try to escape rather than at least attempt something now. Note, that the only time Mace lost his temper was when Lake suggested that the only reason he became a Flec was to save his own sense of identity.
You also suggest Lake murdering Mace and Sieve is a bad thing, despite the fact that she'd avoided openly attacking until that moment: Mace fully intended to kill her on the Train's wheels and Sieve tried to goad One-One into killing her as well. Lake did not want to fight, much less kill them, but she was left with very little choice.
Is Lake a good person? I think she's a kind, but scared, person who's committed bad things in order to save herself.
Is Mace a bad person? I think he has good intentions but is ultimately a selfish man who was likely just doing what his job is.
Trying to boil down both Lake to 'self-centred' Chrome twat for wanting to be her own person just because she's done shitty things goes against the point of that season.
Please don't take this as an attack on your position, I just want to consider another view of Lake and Mace's dynamic
@@sophiemason8444 Then maybe Lake could have explained that instead of simply tricking Tulip into taking her place? Not like your average person would even consider their own reflection have a separate sentience. And she wasn't being chased down until she broke the law of GOD DAMN REALITY.
But that's not an arc. Cause she ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT WAY. The arc should have been some thing are simply beyond your power to achieve. Telling kids that you can do anything is a nice sentiment but hardly realistic, but because Lake wants it more the world should literally bend to her whim?
Bunk. Because Lake couldn't answer Mace either when he brought up his points about Lake living on Earth. She didn't care about consequences she just wanted to "be free" even though she barely knows what that even means or what she'd even do with that freedom.
Yeah well that's sort of how murder usually goes down. You can't really do it until you have an opportunity now can you? Lake had to run because she was weaponless, had virtually no way to stop them, but the moment she had the ability to wheel Mace? She did it and watched him die while his life-fluids splashed onto her face. I mean let me really describe this to you, cause at least Steve went quick. She took Mace and GROUND HIM UP... SLOWLY.... PAINFULLY. There's self defense and then there's straight up revenge-style murder.
Lake is not a good person because she only cares about what she wants and damn the consequences.
Mace is not a good or bad person he's trying to keep reality from literally falling to pieces.
The point of the season should have been that some things are simply beyond your ability or control to change and it felt like at the last minute the story just caves in tot he temptation of having a overly sweet good ending.
I do consider it. And I think you're wrong.
@@thefvguy5648 Funny how you say it's faulty at best and yet can't refute over half the points I bring up. You know trapping Tulip, her lack of an arc, literally ANY of the points I or Mace make about how Lake would even begin to function in the real world. But yeah, I'm real "faulty" with my reasoning.
Oh and by the way, I said I "thought" they were wrong because while I disagreed heavily with most everything in Book 2, I still allowed such an opinion to exist, I just in no way believe in it.
Wanna know how I know that it was revenge and not self defense? She looked right at him as he died. His life-juice hitting her face as she watched him die PAINFULLY, SLOWLY, DELIBERATELY. And I didn't say she wouldn't be shaken up after, I mean it was her first kill after all, but it gets easier, just ask Steve.
No, she doesn't. She wants to help Jessie and that's it. Same reason why she doesn't try to go back and help out the Apex kids. She dosn't give a damn about any of the other passengers, only Jesse and only cause she spent so long with him. That could have and should have been her growth, but it wasn't.
No, the lesson in Book 1 was how things around us will change and for better or worse we can't stop things around us from becoming different, we can only adapt to those changes and make the best of them, things can't be as they were. Book 2 should have worked how some things in the present cannot be changed no matter what we do and to make the best of them. Then Book 3 could have been about the future in some form and we would have had thematical resonance. Past, present, future.
@@thefvguy5648 Bias? You know you're defending murder right? I mean you're trying REALLY hard to justify killing someone, desperately so even. And maybe that's what really gets your goat here. That a character you actually liked is suddenly thrown into such an ugly light, and you didn't like what you saw.
I didn't say your points were faulty. I said mine were not. And even if AD took out Steve, not like Lake gave even a second thought to it, just an obstacle out of the way.
You still haven't refuted anything else outside of the Apex stuff, and you accidentally proven me right about how she doesn't care about them and she only cares about herself and her two friends and damn everyone and everything else. She's a god damn sociopath you child, if it sounds like I'm talking down to you it's cause I am, cause that's how you have to talk to children.
@@thefvguy5648 No, I consider you a child because your obvious tactics of calling someone arrogant and ignorant and the like are the views of a child. You characterized me first, saying things like "arrogant" "ignorant" "immature". You could barely do a thing against points I've made so you're using ad hominem, trying to make me out as a bad person and therefor a person whose argument is invalid, no matter what points I make. In other words, attacking me, not my argument, child. Anything I've said in regards to you as a person has only been in retaliation. It's why I didn't do so with the first person who replied. But you threw the first stone. You are free game, child.
Her "flaws" make her a shit person, kiddo. And just because she didn't enjoy it, another thing highly debatable frankly, doesn't stop it from being murder, child.
The real hard truth of all this, kiddo, is that you don't want to talk. You want to try and "save" people from realizing the points that I've made are perfectly valid and the ones you've made are as weak as the strawman you're trying to dress me up as.
9:28