Map sensor. Doesnt need a mass air sensor. I think it's refered to as speed density. Usually uses map/tps/O2/IAT/engine temp to control fueling. Dont forget a megasquirt alternate is Speeduino. I use this system. Both use the same Tunerstudio for tuning!
if you look 7:26 you can see where the throttle cable will come into the back of the engine and it has a screw mount to hold the cable and then on the throttle POT there is a place to put that cable end to move the POT with a cable
So I’ve had to go to school for these EFI engines they’re trying to make them more like a car engine than anything but each computer whether it be Bosch or Delphi they have a learn process the engine Hass to get up to temperature before the process could really begin the O2 sensor don’t start reading until it gets around 700 720°F and then it regulate the throttle which is what the small rev on startup is once engine gets up to temperature every single smooth out in idle properly. This is especially important for the first time, running it and every time after resetting the computer and easy way to tell if you have a Bosch or Delphi system is to look at the O2 sensor wire if it’s one wire through the O2 sensor it’s a Bosch system. If it’s a four wire, it’s a Delphi and you can contact either company to get parts.
There is no O2 sensor, it most likely uses the temperature sensor on the side of the head to determine if its running rich or lean. I suspect that's why its running kinda crappy, using that by itself isn't going to be very exact or quick to react.
@@joewaun894 a higher fuel pressure will increase the amount of fuel per injector pulse. A common cheat to get more from small injectors is to increase fuel pressure. Timing on this is probably not controlled by the ecm. This looks to be a simple efi system.
If it has a diagnostic connector, you should be able to hook into it and change the computer mapping so it will run with the open-air filter and exhaust. The boys at Grind Hard have done it on 3 of their custom-built rides, I think with the right program you could make that 420 do anything you want.
Likely an air density fuel setup, air temp and throttle position determines the amount of fuel. Look forward to seeing the details im still at the unboxing
I've already been hacking on one. The 4 pin connector is a CANBUS cable. Green and Green white are the CAN low and CAN high signal, yellow Green is ground, Blue/red is positive. The other connectors are a remote kill switch (short green and yellow green) and the other is an idle switch that sets the engine to idle {purple and yellow/green) The ECU does not appear easily tunable. Changing the exhaust or the intake will instantly ruin its calibration, as it does NOT have an o2 sensor and cannot detect rich/lean. So changing anything about it renders the ECU, in its current state, incapable of running the engine correctly. Even removing the airfilter or not having it on tight makes it seek and surge. There are PROBABLY commands that can be sent over canbus to edit the injector duty cycle/fuel map tables, etc. I have not split open the ECU. Based on the sensors it has, it is definitely a speed density system, and it might have an alpha-n fallback. You might be able to get more fuel into a higher performance engine by manipulating the fuel pressure, which probably requires an external pressure regulator. No Mass airflow, no o2 sensor. Potentiometer for the throttle is wired to blue white and brown yellow, with brown yellow on the wiper. The starter switch is yellow/green and brown, short them together to start, short them together to stop. blue/red is positive for the lights, blue green is the engine running led, red/white is the engine stop led. IT DOES NOT have a mass airflow sensor. It has a Manifold Air Pressure Sensor, intake air temperature sensor, throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, and an engine oil temperature sensor. Incidentally, i've already made mine start buck and spit on a speeduino.
thats pretty intresting cant wait to see what people are going to do with these motors I'ma be keeping an eye on this motor for awile to see what happens
Loved this, I literally saw these last night and have all the same questions, though I’m super glad they give a way to hook cable throttle up out of the box, it does have a delay on the throttle but to be fair so did the first cars with throttle by wire….
i'm stoked for this series and how these things come around with mods. After watching this...there's a long way to go..i've never been a fan of drive by wire.
Confused?? 🙃 So the throttle is the position sensor… just not mounted on the throttle body. So that leaves a servo motor on the throttle body. Waiting for a signal from the ECU. which is waiting for a signal from the position sensor. Hmm 🤔 definitely doesn’t look like that’s the fastest response possible but it does look like the slowest. Still I was wondering when one of these would find its way into your most creative mad scientist hands. lol, Now I can’t wait to see all the really cool and awesome testing you’ve got planned. 👍 This one’s definitely gonna be fun to play with and watch on UA-cam. Ps: Thanks for sharing your mini-bike knowledge.
Ive got to say this would be a sweet upgrade to my Predator 420cc Hemi that is on my Case 222 garden tractor. Especially in the winter it would be sweet to see how EFI would be.
The tech support person is probably right about the priming. That engine is very likely wired like a motorcycle. They only run the pump when the engine is actually spinning. It is wired in series with the coil so when the coil start firing, then the pumps will engage. The reasoning for it is if you crash. You don't want the fuel pump to be running just because the ignition is on. You should be able to run off the float bowls for a couple of seconds, which is more than enough time for the engine to spin up and then turn on the fuel pump which will then refill the bowls. You could add a push button priming button and figure out an easy way to drain the fuel post-tank. Then you could drain the fuel like you do with a carb bowl, and have a way to make sure it was primed before you even try.
Hey Red Beard, any luck getting this engine running better? Maybe those folks over at Northern Tool would have some pointers? I’m super excited to see what EFI can bring to the mini bike world! It feels like you’re a bearded mini bike riding version of Steve Jobs who has just shown the world the first iPhone! Some people dream of a future of jetpacks and self driving cars, but seriously, I just want an EFI mini bike. A bit weird, maybe, but I can’t be the only one!
it does have a crankshaft position sensor which means you can chuck the flywheel for propeller operations, airrboat and ultralight plane, use a belt and pulley on the pull start end to a john deer 2 lb generator for 20 amp charge
Mr red beard i talked to a guy that sells the valve spring hieght checker for the small blocks i told him who you were and hes tryed to get in contact with you his name is tony and im buying on of his tools and i remembered you said you were looking for one so there 50 bicks and i cant wait for mine
theres throttle linkage on the potentiometer and you slide the cable through the case. also most likely you are correct they probably have a tune that they load on that lil ecu. just bc like you mentioned no maf sensor means no air fuel ratio data is being feed to the ecu so no it cannot compensate for the changes made after a owner has added a turbo or small s/c. but you could wire in your own ecu to each component i.e. head temp sensor, fuel pump and so on and yes a mega squirt would work as long as they allow single cylinder motors to be ran of there ecu. wonder if it uses a half effect sensor to crank trigger for timing.
I'd actually be surprised if it had MAF... I figured it would be "speed density", which is based off manifold pressure and RPM to hit the targets in a fuel map. Many OEM engines are spun that way. If it says it has MAF though, I might expect to find the MAF sensor built in as part of the airbox. I'm assuming that the reason it has the fly by wire throttle body is to govern the engine. That pot is likely used by the ECU to set target RPM... probably uses some sort of PID algorithm to adjust the throttle to hit the target RPM. So, the upside is there is no mechanical governor. The downside is the only way to get around it will probably be something like microsquirt (or megasquirt). I doubt fly-by-wire will have have a good response so, I'd personally find a way to hijack the throttle control for direct cable control, or find a throttle body you can adapt to the engine. There is another do-it-all ECU solution called Speeduino, which is built on a generic microcontroller platform... even more geeky than megasquirt, but cheaper. I highly doubt the stock ECU can be tuned. It is cool to see, but the thing is, if you have to swap the ECU, and the throttle body, are we gaining much with this engine? Might be better off just adding these mods to standard 420.
I was in northerntool this morning and they have a bigger engine then this its a 739 cc and they had it in the big hot water pressure washer skids, that thing looks nice!
the plug with bl and y\g and g/w and g is the CAN comm plug, the ecu is going to have to go, it will cap the rpm's and the boost. get someone to attempt comm to the ecu via CAN interface, see if it can be read, and more importantly, written.
It reminds me of early GM TBI injection where it has just the basics to make it run. I am willing to bet it’s very limited to adapting to mods. Basically a great engine if you are keeping it relatively stock.
You don't need a mass air flow sensor, that was tech from before speed density became more common place with the use of a MAP sensor to determine air charge pressure, crank angle sensor to determine stroke position and a calculated known displacement as that gives you all you need for EFI, you can up that in accuracy by adding a feedback loop with a wideband O2 sensor. The microsquirt would be what you want for an aftermarket EFI controller for use with boost.
You got that backwards, MAF EFI systems are the standard nowadays unless your talking performance applications like Standalone ECUs. Companies went away from Speed Density in the late 90's when OBD2 became a thing lol
I think that's perfect as-is for Grandma's 4-wheel scooter that has trouble on some of the hills in her park on the way to bingo.I think she'd like to drift a couple corners and scare people out of the line to get in her spot quicker. ;)
If you could do an instructional on what's needed for a custom EFI exhaust that would be awesome! I want a custom exhaust but not sure about remounting the sensor
Like a few others here, we’re confused why it was surging while running. Was there a mistake made starting? An issue with the machine? Or does it take longer to settle in and self correct?
As someone that has tuned using MicroSquirt (MS2), I recommend skipping all this nonsense and going straight to learning how to use microsquirt. this system likely uses the head temp sensor to go rich/lean (AKA- dummy switch), and the fuel/spark tables are probably about as dumb as a mule. MS is the way to go. you can like tune it on your dyno. please use a real wideband o2 sensor setup. any old cheap injector will work, but it needs to be small CC's.
Adding an alternator would be easy and solve the issue of the weak factory charging system. I'd remove the factory charging coil and go that route. You might also be able to upgrade the charging coil.
So this type of EFI setup is Speed Density rather than MAF. Uses a MAP sensor to read manifold pressure and an Intake Temp sensor then uses those to calculate the density of the air entering the engine. Downside of that is its struggles to compensate when modifications are done that improve air flow unless tuned, which I'm sure at the moment there's no way to tune the little ECUs on these engines lol Most standalone ECUs like MegaSquirt use Speed Density .
Biggest upgrade to these types of engines is oil cooler, filter and pump .this will increase engine life when you are tuning for more power ,(come on people it's just obvious to do this )👍
When making changes to intake or exhaust, disconnect the battery and cycle the power switch. That'll clear anything the ECU has learned and then adjust to the changes. Unless it has a fixed running map. Then you'll need a different ECU.
It does not have an adjusting map/fuel trim, no o2 sensor, no Mass airflow sensor. It cannot detect the fuel air ratios or the amount of air coming in. It's a speed density system, similar to an 80s ford or chevrolet. So it will need a tune for any change, even a particularly high airflow filter, or at least a fuel pressure regulator to change the fuel pressure.
@@rosschamberlain1823 Mine's already barking and spitting with a speeduino/alternative ECU connected with a heated o2 sensor connected. The stator doesnt make enough power to keep the heated o2 sensor on though, and it will foul up fast with how much oil these engines burn. Going to find the cheapest 'close enough' non heated o2 sensor from the local parts stores to fit eventually once i build the rest out and get a base tune. The factory ecu has an exposed canbus, i am getting some data from it, but i suspect we're heavily locked out, to the point of popping an efuse to prevent adjusting the fuel tables. I'll decap/unpot the ECU eventually and try to see if i can dump its program, but its going to be unlikely to appease the EPA/CARB.
Looks a lot better made than the Ryobi 420cc EFI generator engine makes me think maybe the computer needs to auto tune and she will top looping , or maybe when it gets warm... still sucks that it is doing that...
Interesting engine, we should have been adapting small engines back in the 1990s with EFI when they were having success with them on automotive engines. Now we have fallen behind in that regard.
For turboing it you would probably need an aftermarket ECU and fuel regulator to account for boost. Other question is if the injector has enough headroom for boost.
In its stock configuration it shouldn’t be much more than a built 224 to torque so it could go on the dyno? Can you get a wide band sensor on an exhaust to check if the ecu is adjusting the fueling.
I'm sure there is someone out there that will be able to get into the ecu and help you write a good map table for the timing and fuel. It is just going to take some surching. Then when you get really crazy you'll need to find out what kind of injector it has and what the fuel pressure is for that map that's going to have to be worked on.
I have always wanted to come up with a simple mechanical injection system but I couldn't find parts or no one would discuss it, I think they thought I was nuts.
I think the first thing is slap on a forced induction something, turbo or supercharger, and see what happens. Out the box, I doubt you'll break anything. You're not cranking up the power that much. Maybe billet flywheel and some stronger springs, but don't add a cam or anything. Let it do its thing with more air.
You need to bypass the governor itself and somehow remap it.. I think it is still to slow based on the sound on how it breathe. Might be nice for constant RPM application like generators. we might need to speeduino or megasquirt it.
I would assume that the potentiometer setting requests an engine speed (rpm) and governs the engine at that speed. With the cable throttle you would not have direct control over the throttle position.
Yeah I'd like to see you put it through the wringer and see how well it holds up like everything new you're going to have to wait until the parts start coming in for the aftermarket stuff😇✝️🙏❤️🇺🇲💯👍
You should be able to use a boost refrence fuel pressure regulator to raise the fuel pressure under boost should not need to mess wiiith the electronics
Won't you have to calibrate the EFI so that it knows you want more fuel or does it have some sort of mass air flow meter on it that lets it know that more fuel is needed. Would be interested to see what it can do with E85 and boost.
The battery is used like a capacitor, know how the light got dim at idle on these engines some times? , well the injector needs a steady voltage because that's how it fires. An diping voltage bouncing around would make it fuel werid an make the ecu not run properly as voltage = speed in working electronics like the injector an the eletric motor contorling the throttle. So it probably has enough to charge while running but at low idle it needs the steady voltage that the battery provides
get a aracer stand a lone ecu and arf1 wideband 02 it has a auto tune and it can be fully adjusted with your phone via app it has quite a bit of options' i think it would be you're best option .
I knew that the 459 would take a long time if ever to get parts for. I never tell people to buy something without knowing that parts are coming out for it.
Does it have a MAP sensor? If so Probably just running in speed density mode. Ecu references MAP signal to calibrate fuel. Modify the MAP table in the ecu to account for mods
I've been wanting to see EFI on a small engine like this for a while now. I'm excited to see what you do with this.
I have a 2016 cub cadet that had fuel injection
Map sensor. Doesnt need a mass air sensor. I think it's refered to as speed density. Usually uses map/tps/O2/IAT/engine temp to control fueling. Dont forget a megasquirt alternate is Speeduino. I use this system. Both use the same Tunerstudio for tuning!
if you look 7:26 you can see where the throttle cable will come into the back of the engine and it has a screw mount to hold the cable and then on the throttle POT there is a place to put that cable end to move the POT with a cable
Yep! essentially turning the knob from the back side. Just need to hook up a return spring and off you go!
But if we just watched the video.....
9:20
So I’ve had to go to school for these EFI engines they’re trying to make them more like a car engine than anything but each computer whether it be Bosch or Delphi they have a learn process the engine Hass to get up to temperature before the process could really begin the O2 sensor don’t start reading until it gets around 700 720°F and then it regulate the throttle which is what the small rev on startup is once engine gets up to temperature every single smooth out in idle properly. This is especially important for the first time, running it and every time after resetting the computer and easy way to tell if you have a Bosch or Delphi system is to look at the O2 sensor wire if it’s one wire through the O2 sensor it’s a Bosch system. If it’s a four wire, it’s a Delphi and you can contact either company to get parts.
There is no O2 sensor, it most likely uses the temperature sensor on the side of the head to determine if its running rich or lean. I suspect that's why its running kinda crappy, using that by itself isn't going to be very exact or quick to react.
Dude… you could build a go cart with a check engine light! 😂
Stage 2. We’re gonna remove the governor, add a billet flywheel and install a Mikuni carburetor. 😂
Haha 😂😂
Nah just up the fuel pressure
@@kylejackson1236 That really won't do anything. You would just want to change fuel amount and timing and spark timing in the computer
@@joewaun894 a higher fuel pressure will increase the amount of fuel per injector pulse. A common cheat to get more from small injectors is to increase fuel pressure. Timing on this is probably not controlled by the ecm. This looks to be a simple efi system.
@@kylejackson1236correct! The metering system is dead simple and easy to fool on these chinesium system
If it has a diagnostic connector, you should be able to hook into it and change the computer mapping so it will run with the open-air filter and exhaust. The boys at Grind Hard have done it on 3 of their custom-built rides, I think with the right program you could make that 420 do anything you want.
Likely an air density fuel setup, air temp and throttle position determines the amount of fuel. Look forward to seeing the details im still at the unboxing
Learns from the O2 sensor. I bet you’re right.
Or maybe a map sensor
@@motoman22atgmail doesn't look like it has one
That’s cool! Puts some fueltech to
Control it!
It would be great to see it put on a go-kart, if it's as good as the other 420 etc ,thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
I've already been hacking on one. The 4 pin connector is a CANBUS cable. Green and Green white are the CAN low and CAN high signal, yellow Green is ground, Blue/red is positive. The other connectors are a remote kill switch (short green and yellow green) and the other is an idle switch that sets the engine to idle {purple and yellow/green)
The ECU does not appear easily tunable. Changing the exhaust or the intake will instantly ruin its calibration, as it does NOT have an o2 sensor and cannot detect rich/lean. So changing anything about it renders the ECU, in its current state, incapable of running the engine correctly. Even removing the airfilter or not having it on tight makes it seek and surge. There are PROBABLY commands that can be sent over canbus to edit the injector duty cycle/fuel map tables, etc. I have not split open the ECU. Based on the sensors it has, it is definitely a speed density system, and it might have an alpha-n fallback. You might be able to get more fuel into a higher performance engine by manipulating the fuel pressure, which probably requires an external pressure regulator. No Mass airflow, no o2 sensor.
Potentiometer for the throttle is wired to blue white and brown yellow, with brown yellow on the wiper. The starter switch is yellow/green and brown, short them together to start, short them together to stop. blue/red is positive for the lights, blue green is the engine running led, red/white is the engine stop led.
IT DOES NOT have a mass airflow sensor. It has a Manifold Air Pressure Sensor, intake air temperature sensor, throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, and an engine oil temperature sensor.
Incidentally, i've already made mine start buck and spit on a speeduino.
Having a CANBUS is unexpected but pretty cool. Didn't expect it to be that "advanced" lol
@@MrUltraDreamz I aint gonna lie, i spent 4 hours thinking it must be RS232 or TTL serial until i slapped a logic analyzer on it.
thats pretty intresting cant wait to see what people are going to do with these motors I'ma be keeping an eye on this motor for awile to see what happens
Loved this, I literally saw these last night and have all the same questions, though I’m super glad they give a way to hook cable throttle up out of the box, it does have a delay on the throttle but to be fair so did the first cars with throttle by wire….
i'm stoked for this series and how these things come around with mods. After watching this...there's a long way to go..i've never been a fan of drive by wire.
Confused?? 🙃 So the throttle is the position sensor… just not mounted on the throttle body. So that leaves a servo motor on the throttle body. Waiting for a signal from the ECU. which is waiting for a signal from the position sensor. Hmm 🤔 definitely doesn’t look like that’s the fastest response possible but it does look like the slowest. Still I was wondering when one of these would find its way into your most creative mad scientist hands. lol, Now I can’t wait to see all the really cool and awesome testing you’ve got planned. 👍 This one’s definitely gonna be fun to play with and watch on UA-cam.
Ps: Thanks for sharing your mini-bike knowledge.
Check out the E300 engines, same EFI and they already sell them on air compressors and generators at norther tool.
Just wait till someone comes out with a tuning software for it or a new tune able ecu. Can't wait to see how far you can go with it being new.
Amen. Lean on him in hard times
Ive got to say this would be a sweet upgrade to my Predator 420cc Hemi that is on my Case 222 garden tractor. Especially in the winter it would be sweet to see how EFI would be.
Super cool! Can't wait to see more!
I made a post about what engine for my garden tractor and someone posted the NT link. Thanks for this video
Thanks for sharing!
The tech support person is probably right about the priming. That engine is very likely wired like a motorcycle. They only run the pump when the engine is actually spinning. It is wired in series with the coil so when the coil start firing, then the pumps will engage. The reasoning for it is if you crash. You don't want the fuel pump to be running just because the ignition is on. You should be able to run off the float bowls for a couple of seconds, which is more than enough time for the engine to spin up and then turn on the fuel pump which will then refill the bowls. You could add a push button priming button and figure out an easy way to drain the fuel post-tank. Then you could drain the fuel like you do with a carb bowl, and have a way to make sure it was primed before you even try.
Yeah carb flywheel and cam I don't seen getting rid of that slow throttle response
Really cool. My son loves the look of those motors
Hey Red Beard, any luck getting this engine running better?
Maybe those folks over at Northern Tool would have some pointers?
I’m super excited to see what EFI can bring to the mini bike world!
It feels like you’re a bearded mini bike riding version of Steve Jobs who has just shown the world the first iPhone!
Some people dream of a future of jetpacks and self driving cars, but seriously, I just want an EFI mini bike. A bit weird, maybe, but I can’t be the only one!
it does have a crankshaft position sensor which means you can chuck the flywheel for propeller operations, airrboat and ultralight plane, use a belt and pulley on the pull start end to a john deer 2 lb generator for 20 amp charge
Very excited to see the possibilities with this motor. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for watching. We have some good stuff planned.
Mr red beard i talked to a guy that sells the valve spring hieght checker for the small blocks i told him who you were and hes tryed to get in contact with you his name is tony and im buying on of his tools and i remembered you said you were looking for one so there 50 bicks and i cant wait for mine
Sounded like a governor surge 🤔 hoping you can Gitt'er tuned up ! ☮️
Patiently waiting for that “Vent tube explanation video that was promised two weeks back. 😂❤
theres throttle linkage on the potentiometer and you slide the cable through the case. also most likely you are correct they probably have a tune that they load on that lil ecu. just bc like you mentioned no maf sensor means no air fuel ratio data is being feed to the ecu so no it cannot compensate for the changes made after a owner has added a turbo or small s/c. but you could wire in your own ecu to each component i.e. head temp sensor, fuel pump and so on and yes a mega squirt would work as long as they allow single cylinder motors to be ran of there ecu. wonder if it uses a half effect sensor to crank trigger for timing.
Heck yeah that's a good value. I wonder what kind of main chip the ECU uses
I think it has a mass air flow built into that tb plus some of those wires might be to tune the ECU I'd check for sure
It looks really cool little high tech for me
I'd actually be surprised if it had MAF... I figured it would be "speed density", which is based off manifold pressure and RPM to hit the targets in a fuel map. Many OEM engines are spun that way. If it says it has MAF though, I might expect to find the MAF sensor built in as part of the airbox. I'm assuming that the reason it has the fly by wire throttle body is to govern the engine. That pot is likely used by the ECU to set target RPM... probably uses some sort of PID algorithm to adjust the throttle to hit the target RPM. So, the upside is there is no mechanical governor. The downside is the only way to get around it will probably be something like microsquirt (or megasquirt). I doubt fly-by-wire will have have a good response so, I'd personally find a way to hijack the throttle control for direct cable control, or find a throttle body you can adapt to the engine. There is another do-it-all ECU solution called Speeduino, which is built on a generic microcontroller platform... even more geeky than megasquirt, but cheaper. I highly doubt the stock ECU can be tuned. It is cool to see, but the thing is, if you have to swap the ECU, and the throttle body, are we gaining much with this engine? Might be better off just adding these mods to standard 420.
I notice in the specs on Northern Tool, they say the crankshafts on these are forged steel.
I was in northerntool this morning and they have a bigger engine then this its a 739 cc and they had it in the big hot water pressure washer skids, that thing looks nice!
the plug with bl
and y\g and g/w and g is the CAN comm plug, the ecu is going to have to go, it will cap the rpm's and the boost. get someone to attempt comm to the ecu via CAN interface, see if it can be read, and more importantly, written.
It reminds me of early GM TBI injection where it has just the basics to make it run. I am willing to bet it’s very limited to adapting to mods. Basically a great engine if you are keeping it relatively stock.
The extra intake gasket is a heat shield typically.
Yeah probably. Just looks dumb lol.
Amazing engine! Thanks for sharing.
You don't need a mass air flow sensor, that was tech from before speed density became more common place with the use of a MAP sensor to determine air charge pressure, crank angle sensor to determine stroke position and a calculated known displacement as that gives you all you need for EFI, you can up that in accuracy by adding a feedback loop with a wideband O2 sensor. The microsquirt would be what you want for an aftermarket EFI controller for use with boost.
You got that backwards, MAF EFI systems are the standard nowadays unless your talking performance applications like Standalone ECUs. Companies went away from Speed Density in the late 90's when OBD2 became a thing lol
Manifold absolute pressure or MAP is what it's using for air fuel measurements. That's a good thing if you can crack the ecu tuning.
I think that's perfect as-is for Grandma's 4-wheel scooter that has trouble on some of the hills in her park on the way to bingo.I think she'd like to drift a couple corners and scare people out of the line to get in her spot quicker. ;)
Love the potential that might be available!
They literally have a bracket to hook a cable up to the potentiometer to run like an old style set up. You can see it when you take the tank off.
Need that second video already. I need to know if this is my next purchase
If you could do an instructional on what's needed for a custom EFI exhaust that would be awesome! I want a custom exhaust but not sure about remounting the sensor
Like a few others here, we’re confused why it was surging while running. Was there a mistake made starting? An issue with the machine? Or does it take longer to settle in and self correct?
What about pressure washers?
As someone that has tuned using MicroSquirt (MS2), I recommend skipping all this nonsense and going straight to learning how to use microsquirt. this system likely uses the head temp sensor to go rich/lean (AKA- dummy switch), and the fuel/spark tables are probably about as dumb as a mule. MS is the way to go. you can like tune it on your dyno. please use a real wideband o2 sensor setup. any old cheap injector will work, but it needs to be small CC's.
Man I want that for my mini bike that is awesome
Adding an alternator would be easy and solve the issue of the weak factory charging system. I'd remove the factory charging coil and go that route. You might also be able to upgrade the charging coil.
They should add mounts for a second charge coil and that would add a backup to keep it running.
So this type of EFI setup is Speed Density rather than MAF. Uses a MAP sensor to read manifold pressure and an Intake Temp sensor then uses those to calculate the density of the air entering the engine. Downside of that is its struggles to compensate when modifications are done that improve air flow unless tuned, which I'm sure at the moment there's no way to tune the little ECUs on these engines lol Most standalone ECUs like MegaSquirt use Speed Density .
Love what you do
Biggest upgrade to these types of engines is oil cooler, filter and pump .this will increase engine life when you are tuning for more power ,(come on people it's just obvious to do this )👍
It probably uses a closed loop system. Since no maf or o2 sensor its probably all pre set values.
I couldn't tell does it have a o2 sensor.
Probably is an electronic controlled governor. Which explains the surge without a load. Idk though.
Extending the fly by wire would likely be troublesome. It's a good thing they set it up for a cable.
When making changes to intake or exhaust, disconnect the battery and cycle the power switch. That'll clear anything the ECU has learned and then adjust to the changes. Unless it has a fixed running map. Then you'll need a different ECU.
I would imagine it's fixed assuming it doesn't have a MAP/MAF sensor
It does not have an adjusting map/fuel trim, no o2 sensor, no Mass airflow sensor. It cannot detect the fuel air ratios or the amount of air coming in. It's a speed density system, similar to an 80s ford or chevrolet. So it will need a tune for any change, even a particularly high airflow filter, or at least a fuel pressure regulator to change the fuel pressure.
@@BadHaddy that's what I thought, but I hoped it would be more sophisticated than that.
@@rosschamberlain1823 Mine's already barking and spitting with a speeduino/alternative ECU connected with a heated o2 sensor connected. The stator doesnt make enough power to keep the heated o2 sensor on though, and it will foul up fast with how much oil these engines burn. Going to find the cheapest 'close enough' non heated o2 sensor from the local parts stores to fit eventually once i build the rest out and get a base tune. The factory ecu has an exposed canbus, i am getting some data from it, but i suspect we're heavily locked out, to the point of popping an efuse to prevent adjusting the fuel tables. I'll decap/unpot the ECU eventually and try to see if i can dump its program, but its going to be unlikely to appease the EPA/CARB.
Looks a lot better made than the Ryobi 420cc EFI generator engine
makes me think maybe the computer needs to auto tune and she will top looping , or maybe when it gets warm...
still sucks that it is doing that...
Most efi needs tuned...manufacturers will richen heavy and make it sluggish until its broken in. It has tons of potential if it has a good pcm/ecu
TURBO!
Interesting engine, we should have been adapting small engines back in the 1990s with EFI when they were having success with them on automotive engines. Now we have fallen behind in that regard.
I would be interested to see if it is more fuel efficient because of the fuel injection, or can you run a turbo on it.
For turboing it you would probably need an aftermarket ECU and fuel regulator to account for boost. Other question is if the injector has enough headroom for boost.
Rmember the valve spring hieght tool you were lokking for i found one
I want to see how they do the crank sensor both sides, mechanical and electronic
this would be perfect to put a turbo on, great for the go cart ;)
In its stock configuration it shouldn’t be much more than a built 224 to torque so it could go on the dyno? Can you get a wide band sensor on an exhaust to check if the ecu is adjusting the fueling.
I'm sure there is someone out there that will be able to get into the ecu and help you write a good map table for the timing and fuel. It is just going to take some surching. Then when you get really crazy you'll need to find out what kind of injector it has and what the fuel pressure is for that map that's going to have to be worked on.
I instantly thought, that an ECU swap using Megasquirt would be perfect.
I have always wanted to come up with a simple mechanical injection system but I couldn't find parts or no one would discuss it, I think they thought I was nuts.
Can't imagine that starting it cold at full throttle is very good for it lmao
That's what customer service told me to do. I thought the same thing.
so if the crank position sensor is bad there is no fault light (probably when it lights up full, thats the CPS is bad.)
I think the first thing is slap on a forced induction something, turbo or supercharger, and see what happens. Out the box, I doubt you'll break anything. You're not cranking up the power that much. Maybe billet flywheel and some stronger springs, but don't add a cam or anything. Let it do its thing with more air.
You need to bypass the governor itself and somehow remap it.. I think it is still to slow based on the sound on how it breathe. Might be nice for constant RPM application like generators. we might need to speeduino or megasquirt it.
I would assume that the potentiometer setting requests an engine speed (rpm) and governs the engine at that speed. With the cable throttle you would not have direct control over the throttle position.
Look at the grom ecu's i think they have the best technology and aftermarket programming
Yeah I'd like to see you put it through the wringer and see how well it holds up like everything new you're going to have to wait until the parts start coming in for the aftermarket stuff😇✝️🙏❤️🇺🇲💯👍
You should be able to use a boost refrence fuel pressure regulator to raise the fuel pressure under boost should not need to mess wiiith the electronics
Won't you have to calibrate the EFI so that it knows you want more fuel or does it have some sort of mass air flow meter on it that lets it know that more fuel is needed. Would be interested to see what it can do with E85 and boost.
I wonder if that EFI can be retuned for different engines (read sachs rotary)
There is a scooter guy on yt. Who was selling efi kits for scooters it had knobs to tune it! It was for 200cc + engines! I'd look into that!!
The battery is used like a capacitor, know how the light got dim at idle on these engines some times? , well the injector needs a steady voltage because that's how it fires. An diping voltage bouncing around would make it fuel werid an make the ecu not run properly as voltage = speed in working electronics like the injector an the eletric motor contorling the throttle. So it probably has enough to charge while running but at low idle it needs the steady voltage that the battery provides
Typing on phone sorry
I bet you could probably wire up a Fuel Tech to it. Will be interesting to see where this goes
At the 7:19 mark, looks like there is a lever on the back of the potentiometer that would accept a cable.....nevermind lol
get a aracer stand a lone ecu and arf1 wideband 02 it has a auto tune and it can be fully adjusted with your phone via app it has quite a bit of options' i think it would be you're best option .
Are there any known transmissions that would fit this? CVT or manual (preferably)
How about propane conversions?
You should do a review on the new mechanical fuel injection carburetor
I bet you hold it full throttle until the Ecu self optimizes/learns. Just like the newer fuel injection swap kits for cars.
No learning on this ECU, it has no o2 sensor or MAF sensor, it has a manifold air pressure sensor. Its more like a 80s ford or chevy first gen ECU.
did they provide you with a programming port for the ecu ? if not, lot of parts you got there, get a speeduino
try geting it up to temp? then the respens maby beter?
Worse case you could always make a Arduino control if the pedal Potentiometer, and the knob are different Potentiometers are different values
After the 459 predator I'm glad to see your warning people to wait and see on parts availability
I knew that the 459 would take a long time if ever to get parts for. I never tell people to buy something without knowing that parts are coming out for it.
Does it have a MAP sensor? If so Probably just running in speed density mode. Ecu references MAP signal to calibrate fuel. Modify the MAP table in the ecu to account for mods
Is this basically a rebranded engine from the Lifan-powered EFI generators that came out a few years back?
I've been wondering what took them so long.
Will it fit in my Coleman
I may buy two of these and strip the EFI and put one on each cylinder of my VG 23 hp EFI mod lol.
Have you found a fly wheel for the max 459 ?
Y’all are thinking wrong it would be a great replacement for my 420cc in my 14’ flat bottom duck boat