The Happiness Letter (Joseph's Proposition to Nancy Rigdon) | Ep. 1688 | LDS Discussions Ep. 28
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- Опубліковано 23 лип 2024
- In part 5 of our 6-part series on polygamy within the LDS Discussion project, we discuss "The Happiness Letter," which was the letter Joseph Smith wrote to Nancy Rigdon to try to convince her to become one of his plural wives.
Special Guest: @NEMOTHEMORMON
/ nemothemormon
LDS Discussion Essay on the Happiness Letter: www.ldsdiscussions.com/happiness
LDS Discussions Playlist: • Joseph Smith and Treas...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:06:50 What is Joseph Smith’s “Happiness Letter”
00:11:05 Joseph Smith recruits Nancy Marinda Hyde
00:13:40 Joseph Gives this Revelation after Sending Orson on a Mission
00:27:30 Joseph clears out the printing office for private meetings
00:32:50 Joseph’s secret meeting with nancy is confirmed by Orson
00:37:20 John C. Bennett, “Spiritual Wifery,” and the Nancy Rigdon Proposal
00:44:50 Women testified that men claimed Joseph taught spiritual wifery
00:48:50 John C. Bennett on what leads to the Happiness Letter
00:57:50 Joseph Smith’s 1841 teaching of “No sin if no accuser”
01:05:50 Nancy Rigdon was told to burnt the letter after reading
01:08:50 Church leaders have cited the Happiness Letter
01:16:00 A reading of the “Happiness Letter”
01:22:05 Breaking down the happiness letter
01:24:15 Joseph Smith turns morality upside down on Nancy Rigdon
01:30:50 Hank Smith and Kate Holbrook discuss this with D&C 132
01:38:00 This is a tactic used by other religious leaders
01:40:00 Reading this letter in the context it was written
01:43:30 Using the language of revelation to convince women to say “Yes.”
01:46:50 Joseph Smith’s use of inclusive language
01:49:30 The Happiness Letter makes clear it’s about polygamy
01:57:50 Joseph Smith unintentionally conceded his is his desire
02:00:00 The Happiness Letter alternates promises and threats
02:01:50 Joseph Smith compares an apple to a polygamous marriage
02:04:50 Joseph Smith then says marrying Joseph will make Nancy happy
02:10:00 Either Joseph is lying or the God of Mormonism is wrong
02:17:40 Threatening to take away blessings already received
02:20:40 Using urgency to circumvent Nancy’s moral compass
02:25:10 God is more liberal (and awful) than we are ready to believe
02:27:45 The God of Mormonism is certainly more inconsistent than we are ready to believe
02:30:20 Joseph promises great blessings for obeying Joseph…through God
02:32:00 Fallout from Nancy releasing the Happiness Letter
02:43:30 Joseph Smith calls off the attacks following Sidney’s letter
02:45:20 Now listen to church leader cite the Happiness Letter again
02:48:00 Conclusion on the Happiness Letter
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
LDS Discussions 6-part Polygamy Series: • An Introduction to Mor...
LDS Discussions Playlist: • Joseph Smith and Treas...
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Mike really works hard to make this so understandable. Good job guys.
💯
My 3rd great grandmother was sealed to my 3rd great grandfather in Brigham Young’s office when she was 13 and he was 40. She was his third wife. Once polygamy “ended” she was sent away to live with her adult children. Another set of polygamous ancestors were a mother and daughter who were sealed to the same man and both had children by him. The suffering that ensued bc Joseph Smith couldn’t keep his pants on 🤦🏼♀️
😮😮
Power of Three 😐
Just finished listening to the podcast but so wanted to come here and comment. This is seriously one of the most content rich episodes I’ve heard yet and I’ve been binge listening for months now. The work done by Mike is first rate and so important. The commentary by Nemo is spot on and this is probably my favorite trio for MS podcasts. Thank you all for what you are doing. 🙏
YES
Mike, do not apologize. It would have been really bizarre if you were calm, content, and flat. You showed the passion you have for the respect of women. Thank you!
Thank you to John and Nemo!
Agreed. Mike’s emotion in this episode is completely justified. You are just scratching the surface of my anger as this all unravels for me. I couldn’t contain it like you guys do.
++
Yes. Absolutely.
I appreciate how worked up Mike gets! It's nice to see a man get as outraged at this information as I am. Someone needs to make a Nancy Rigdon is my hero T Shirt!
For me, it’s almost therapeutic to hear men outraged at polygamy and sexism in the church. I hope someday to hear this kind of outrage from my husband. Until then, I appreciate podcasts like this that help me process these hurtful teachings. Thank you, Mike, for all your hard work on this series!
@@Mon-Alisa ❤
I’m a woman, and I want to thank you three for being good allies on an issue where women are the primary victims. I would also love to have heard Elissa’s input on this. At the same time, having three men condemning this manipulative, abusive relationship so thoroughly may make other men listen more. Thank you for using your privilege (and your anger!) to tell this woman’s story and vehemently condemn her abuser
2:23:21 When I was newly married and pregnant, my family used this tactic. Me and my husband were so worried something would happen to us or the baby that we wouldn’t be sealed. So exactly a year after our marriage, while pregnant, we got our endowment and we’re sealed. Let me say, I thought it was incredibly bizarre. I thought that the video was blah and very boring and quite anticlimactic. Seeing as how everything is so secretive. I remember looking at my mom quite a lot beside me and I think inside I was saying “are you serious right now? This is what you do at the temple?! What a load of bunk”… but because she was my mom and all my family and his family was there, I went along with it. As I look back today over ten years later; I realize how much mind control there is and it’s unfortunate and creates so much pain for those who wake up and leave. The church honestly needs to come clean and let everyone see the facts as they are. Thank you Mike for your channel, it has been a great help, I put off looking up these issues after leaving the church and am now brave enough to face them. So thank you.
I just have to say that to use the fact that some of Joseph's wives were older to support the claim that he didn't have sex with all of his wives completely insults older women, insinuating that they either don't have sex drives, or are no longer desirable. Highly insulting!!
Amen!!!
Good catch. The Brethren and their apologists continue to place their feet directly into their mouths. 🦶
It makes an assumption without evidence to support the idea that they did not have sexual relations.
True. That line of argument has always bugged me too. And it's not like they were extremely old. They were just not teenagers and some of them were a bit older than Joseph Smith. It's just the usual "grasping at straws" form of apologetics. Fun fact: Emma was older than Joseph Smith.
A better reason for older women....they can't get pregnant.
Why is it someone raised in this church won't even listen to what Joseph smith did wrong? How can they ignore that he was only out for his own personal sexual satisfaction.
Think of it like Trump supporters: No matter what, he does no wrong according to their eyes.
@@charleswashington6343 thank you. I think it runs a little deeper. But I’m glad someone finally said it. 8:48
This episode really floored me. Everyone should know this happened and re-evaluate Joseph Smith.
Because they are afraid to. They can't criticize one of the Lord's annointed. Fear of the devil catching hold of them.
It will never happen. This church idolizes Joseph. I actually would like to hear the stories of these women
I have been listening to your polygamy videos the past few days and am fascinated! As a lifelong Catholic, turned Mormon convert for 4 years, now Catholic again, I have been interested in learning more about LDS roots. I remember feeling uneasy during the Temple rituals. Standing there in veiled white I was thinking “my god, I’ve joined a cult!” Later on read a book about the Masonic origins and more about JS but what finally clinched it for me was when my husband (ex) had no problem with the idea of having more wives in the afterlife. Which was part of the “meat” we were given after the “milk” we were fed only after fully joining, doing all we were told, paying thousands in tithing, giving of our time and dedication. Nope, done! I remember asking the missionaries about polygamy and being told it was to help women who lost their husbands maintain property in that day in age. So basically I was lied to. Thank you for your in depth research and sharing this important content.
I was told the same thing. Bunch of liars
Or woefully ignorant sheeple
We were all lied to.
Out of the frying pan into the fire then back into the frying pan
Just remember that the missionaries don't realize what they're saying isn't true. They were taught that same lie. So sad.
Please do an episode dedicated to how much the church benefited from isolating the church members from the rest of the world by moving them to Utah. If isolating people isn’t cult behavior, I don’t know what is.
It definitely had financial benefits as BY became one of the richest men in the country.
Yes. I'm a bit surprised John hesitates to call it a cult. Maybe that's easy for me to say, not being a Mormon, but I see Christendom as a cult too.
Also abuser separate the individual from friends and relatives?
That is exactly what I was just thinking about once JS was exposed in IL
The fact alone that these men would only help these women and children if they got something in return is a huge red flag. As a kid, I remember hearing that Joseph & others married widows because they needed help. It was described as being such a gift he gave them and a sacrifice. I didn’t understand why they couldn’t just help them since the church was all about helping and charity.
One thing I personally appreciate in this episode was you guys thoroughly explaining why JS's behavior (as well as the church throughout its history) has also been incredibly oppressive to the men, not just the women. There seems to be this idea that for the men in the church, everything is just a bunch of blessings and opportunities, etc., but that isn't true at all. Only a select few men experience the blessings (like JS sleeping with dozens of women). Most men are worked to the bone and receive no compensation, are heavily indoctrinated into putting themselves into high demand positions and dangerous scenarios (such as giving blessings to people with deadly illnesses, or going on missions in dangerous countries). The church SUCKS for men. It's only a select few who reap any significant rewards or status
I appreciate you mentioning this.. I was very upset when "God" called my elderly parents on a mission to South Africa! There were many dangerous things going on in Johannesburg where they were based. They thought they were safe because they were following the Lord.. missionaries are killed (or die) in foreign countries all the time!!! Because it is they missed their oldest grandchild's wedding and their first great-grandchilds birth, but they had to because the Lord called them!!! My dad said the whole family will be blessed because of their mission but they almost lost their business and I did lose mine!
OK this was new to me and I'm coming unglued upset!! (Mike, don't apologize -- I'm sure many of us appreciate this gets to you this much, too!)
I used to wear a necklace a kind old man on the timpanogas cave trail gave me when I was a teen. It had the “happiness is the object and design of our existence “ quote on it. I was so disturbed when I found out recently about this for the first time. It makes me so mad that I wore that as a young girl not having any idea how he treated girls my age. It’s sick.
It’s a shame because that first little part is one of the coolest teachings and phrases he ever uttered. Too bad it is all about coercing Nancy to have sex with him
What is very interesting to me, is that I was raised believing that Joseph Smith had one wife, it wasn’t tell yours later that I started hearing that he had more than one wife, thought it was Brigham Young that had all the wives, wow, but thought it was only a few wives that Joseph Smith had. And not until I started listening to the podcasts that I have found out more, very educational this is for all of us
I love how fired up you guys got about this, especially Mike. Rightly so! It's mind blowingly coercive, manipulative and abusive and any decent person should be outraged. The Nancy Rigdon story was the 100% deal breaker for me. I literally took my temple recommend out of my wallet and tore it up when I first learned about this about 18 months ago. I was completely done with the church at that point.
Great comment! I'm so happy for you. And it helps me deal with my heartbreak to know the are others who left immediately upon learning that TSCC harms people. Thank you for sharing.
@@juliebrandt197 TSCC?
@@dreamingrightnow1174 the so-called church
Same! I immediately saw the manupulation in the letter and that began my journey into investigating church history, specifically around Joseph Smith. I did not like what I found. No true prophet of God can do what joseph did.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍 Such a fantastically disgusting episode. Saved it to favourites. Job well done, Dr. Dehlin, Mike, and Nemo
@ 2:12
I like that John D. reminds us about how polygamy was a 'nightmare to those who lived it.' I am a direct descendant of a polygamist marriage that caused a disruption of the family, misery for all involved, anger & frustration and ultimately ended in divorce. Nobody in my TBM family ever praised polygamy, but instead would speak of the second wife as being brave to leave the horrendous circumstance she was in. She (younger than 19) was basically given as a second wife almost immediately after arriving in the Salt Lake Valley from Sweden!
What is the acronym TBM mean?
@@amandacollins518 I think it stands for "True, Believing Mormon," though I'm not so certain what that means.
Thank you!
That poor woman (girl)!
So, this isn't a funny topic of course but I do find this one aspect of it pretty hilarious: The happiness letter exposes that Joseph Smith thinks the only reason most women aren't sleeping with him is that they think it would be a sin. He doesn't seem to fathom that they just aren't into him. Sorry Joseph, most young women just aren't that interested in balding tubby middle aged dudes.
My jaw dropped when I read the happiness letter. It could have been written by my (LDS) high school teacher who groomed me. He specifically talked about this kind of moral relativism, even bringing up Nephi killing Laban and polygamy. I remember him saying, specifically, "I can see God saying, these kids could really use each other."
😢🙏
Wow! Just realized my LDS ex-husband studied at the Joseph Smith School of Courtship.
Wow. This episode breaks my heart. Thank you for putting this together.
Jonathan Streeter is the literal bomb. He's the guy that got me past the angry stage of the faith crisis part. So intelligent and emotionally intelligent
All three of you are awesome ! I haven’t learned anything sitting in church the last 38 years.
@ 2:12:00 My pioneer family that immigrated from Denmark comes from the first wife. The husband wrote in his journal how he was pushed by the priesthood to marry a second woman- he did not want to do that. The process was a burden and upset the family.
Damn. Streeter nails that "Temple voice"
Hi, I have a niece who's LDS, but my family is Catholic. I really don't get how drinking coffee is a "sin." Where I live, the Catholic and Lutheran Churches often have socials after church where coffee and donuts are served. It's good stuff, and very Christian. Just my input as a "gentile". Anyway, these videos exploring the roots of the LDS religion and its polygamist beginnings are fascinating.
This was a health teaching from the 1800s. Ya coffee isn't good but herbs are good and will give you knowledge and even hidden knowledge. 😉
@@randyjordan5521 There is health benefits to psychedelics and magic mushrooms as well 🍄
@@danite1742 I can't tell if you're for or against psychedelics, lol.
The discussion at 57:50 about "No Sin if there's no Accuser" is fascinating.
I am so curious to know what the church and doctrine would look like today had Joseph not died. It’s actually quite likely that the church would have died or become so much more irrelevant than it is today had Joseph lived. Had his weirder teachings and behaviors started getting out without the power of ‘martyrdom’, people may have seen him for what he really was
I saw Nemo's clip of the happiness letter, I was mind blown at how often it is quoted from the pulpit!!!
I had never even heard of the happiness letter!
Please Mike don’t apologized.I felt the same way too. Thanks for your hard work. 🥰
Huh? No one needs to come into marriage (plural, monogamous, etc.) feeling good about it? {nervous chuckle} Right? So, now it's okay to completely disregard our gut intuition about everything? That is quite possibly the worst relationship advice I have EVER heard. "Hey, if you get a sketchy feeling about something, anything, or about spending the rest of your life with someone, just throw yourself into the fire and burn. You'll be ✨ blessed." ✨
That's advice clearly for women only. You can have your gut instinct screaming at you to run but if the man says god told him to marry you just ignore your feelings and comply. Keep sweet and obey is the mormon way after all.
I just listened to this and I didn’t know a better way to comment. I appreciate Mike’s outrage and anger here so much. I know that it is uncomfortable for Mike that it shows though so much, but it’s so validating to see others outraged by the same things that have always angered me. 2:39:33
Another stellar episode. Great content as always & Nemo should narrate books or sleep meditations with that melodic voice. 😂
Thank you gentlemen for all your work, especially on this topic. On an epigenetic level, I feel the deconstruction of ancestral trauma happening more and more as I get educated on this. Thank you!
I was a TBM until age 25/26. I'm now in my 40's. My never Mormon bf is sitting here listening to me listen to the Mormon Stories Podcast about this letter. He asked me if I thought JS believed all this stuff or was just trying to "get over" on the people. I don't think JS believed any of this nonsense. I think he saw it as a great way to control and get whatever he wanted. He was a sick, controlling, and lying pervert.
"Unfortunately for Joseph, we have a lot of documentation of it." That's the tagline for this entire show.
About halfway through the past posted LDS discussions podcasts! Loving learning about Mormon church history. I've always loved learning about different religions/ beliefs/cultures/customs. I must say, this is the most indepth I've ever gone into a religion. I used to attend many different services in high school and wanted a understanding of faith in general. In order to help me find my own faith and what I believe... If I could relate the experience of learning about Mormonism and Joseph Smith torecreational reading.. this is like the worst written but best plot driven fictional story ever! Example of my thoughts while learning: *OMGosh, this is so stupid. How could anyone buy into this??🙄*...... *Ooooooh🤔.... ooh🧐..huh?!😲...Oooo!!!😵*
Regarding the book of mormon, it's not surprising that he contradicts it--I'm not sure he even remembered what was in the book of mormon after he finished writing it. He certainly doesn't seem to quote from it the way modern leaders love to do.
Ah, I jumped the gun, you guys got there a few minutes later.
When Nemo says the wording of the 'abominable' passage in the happiness letter gives us a glimpse into JS's psyche--yes: it was a slip of the pen, so to speak. Without intending to, he revealed his true self-view, and it's chilling. In my opinion, we're seeing a sociopath at work.
Great podcast, guys. I'm enjoying catching up on them :)
@51:00
What the hell? Joseph Smith claims it was okay to be sealed to women that (are or) will be married to other men, because he had the "blessings of Jacob granted to him..." So, what does that mean exactly? The 'blessings of Jacob' allow a Mormon man to be married plurally, no matter the marital status of the women (contrary to the revelation)? I wonder how an apologist would explain that!
I’ve just taken my endowments, I felt I was being taken into a cult
Run away as fast as you can
@Angel Wings, yeah, me too, 40 years ago!!!! But we had to symbolically slit our throat, chest and stomach with our thumb as a penalty for revealing anything about the endowment! We also had to be naked under the shield poncho as they touched our bare bodies with the oil and where helped into our new under wear by the guy who blessed our bodies in the washing and anointing. Secrecy, death penalties and weird underwater ... Oh my!!!! One person's sacred experience is another person's cult! Just gotta figure out which one you are! I realized I'm the person for whom it is a cult! I bailed after my mission!!!
Best of luck with that!!!
So sorry. The temple is so traumatic for so many of us. You aren't alone ❤
Hugs, sorry, it is a bad experience for many people.
Your feelings stand correct. Your gut and subconscious were fighting to get your attention to save you
Joseph:
Strong women: Hey everybody, Joseph is a sex pest.
Joseph: Nuh uhh ... I know you are but what am I?
Expositor press: Hey everybody, Joseph has been a sex pest for years now.
Joseph: SHUT UP! Gosh!
Mob:
Sex predator is more accurate.
How many more wives would Joseph had taken if he had lived 30-40 years longer! He was still a young man when God wasn't on his side anymore (if He ever was?) and Joseph had to die. Would 100 wives been enough for an evil sex predator? I actually think it would have been much more than just 100 because he was "marrying" one new young girl/woman almost every month in 1842-44. Thank God it had end in 1844. But Brigham Young was a very busy sex predator after Joseph, Brigham took 55 wives if I remember correctly.
😂 sex pest is more fun to say! If it wasn't less accurate, I'd say we should change it, lol!
Excellent episode! Mike, thank you for taking this very seriously. JS was predatory and manipulative, all speaking in the name of God to serve his own disgusting desires. Polygamy is STILL LDS doctrine to this day.
These episodes are dark. Polygamy is such a difficult historical aspect of mormonism. However, they are incredibly important and informative. Tremendous works guys.
So, God gave this commandment to live the law of polygamy, and his commandments are designed to make us happy. That seems awfully strange in light of how it was practiced:
“Now for my proposition; it is more particularly for my sisters, as it is frequently happening that women say they are unhappy. Men will say, ‘My wife, though a most excellent woman, has not seen a happy day since I took my second wife, ‘ ‘No, not a happy day for a year,’ says one; and another has not seen a happy day for five years. It is said that women are tied down and abused: that they are misused and have not the liberty they ought to have; that many of them are wading through a perfect flood of tears."
(Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4., pp. 55-57; also printed in Deseret News, Vol. 6, pp. 235)
Wow, just look at how happy all these women were to be living the commandment of polygamy! They were so happy, Brigham had to issue an ultimatum in this talk where they had 2 weeks to stop whining or leave Utah:
"Sisters, I am not joking, I do not throw out my proposition to banter your feelings, to see whether you will leave your husbands, all or any of you. But I know that there is no cessation to the everlasting whining of many of the women in this territory; I am satisfied that this is the case. And if the women will turn from the commandments of God and continue to despise the order of heaven, I will pray that the curse of the Almighty may be close to their heals, and that it may be following them all the day long….
Prepare yourselves for two weeks from to morrow; and I will tell you now, that if you will tarry with your husbands, after I have set you free, you must bow down to it, and submit yourselves to the celestial law. You may go where you please, after two weeks from to-morrow; but, remember, that I will not hear any more of this whining."
Emily Partridge reflected on her short marriage with Joseph Smith later in life. It was very soon after Emma agreed that Joseph should marry Emily & Eliza that she became very upset with them and had them cast out of the house. Emily considered what happened a "divorce". She wrote:
"I was subject to many disagreeable and humiliating circumstances, and being young and inexperienced did not always count the cost before hand. Well this is all past and gone. I have felt sad and leanly all this day but has shed no tears. There are griefs to deep for tears."
--In Sacred Loneliness: The Documents pg 388
It doesn't sound like obeying this commandment brought her any happiness either.
Ebenezer Robinson lost faith in Joseph and the church - he stayed in Iowa and eventually became a part of the Reorganized church for a time as well. He wrote affidavits about polygamy to disavow the LDS church.
Another thought, watching it again - if the apologist are going to disregard everything written by a scribe as not having been written by JS, don’t they have to throw out the BoM, D&C, Book of Abraham? Weren’t all the modern scripture written down by scribes?
This is like reading the scriptures - new thoughts keep occurring to me every time I listen. So one of the things that really bothers me about Jim Bennet and others throw out points in the CES letter for being inaccurate or not backed up by sources is that the whole point was that he was asking questions. So, to me anyway, it makes sense that there might be errors cause they're questions. If he had all the answers exactly right what would the need have been for a letter?
Key missed correlation. Nancy Marinda Hyde, Joseph's polyandrous wife, was formerly Nancy Marinda Johnson, the young girl Joseph was tar and feathered, and nearly castrated over, for rumors of impropriety amongst the Johnson family.
My opinion on why there was the gap of D&C is that not only are the doctrines of that time inconvenient, but Joseph had over a dozen wives at that time, he was busy doing other things than writing.
It made me cringe to hear/see the 'brethren' use excerpts from the letter in their conference talks. They knew what the letter was and used the manipulative excerpts to teach/inspire/manipulate us at conference...the place we looked forward to hearing and feeling the Spirit and be 'spiritually fed'? Just so cringey and upsetting! This breaks my heart and at the same time makes me so angry! 💔🤬😤😡
I heard that people didn't generally study or read the Book of Mormon in the early church except for their initial read and conversion. Joseph Smith's son had never read it before he was an adult if I have my facts right.
Maybe he had forgotten the part where Solomon was condemned for all his wives.
Just heard John say he might have decided to discard that idea because it no longer served him - good thought!
Thank you for your outrage, Mike! I am grateful that you were disgusted and DID something about it. Keep educating.
Do any of these talk about what happened to the young men? One issue that the FLDS had was that when these old men took so many of the younger women out of the pool as mates, there were left over, uncoupled, excess teen boys and young men. I think it’s pretty obvious young teen girls and young women would rather be coupled with young teen boys and young men, so they represent competition that’s potentially destabilizing for these older men getting their multiple wives. In the FLDS they boot them out of the community for the slightest breaking of rules (aka the lost boys) often without even an education or any way to take care of themselves. So what was the early Mormon churches solution to excess boys as they come of age? These polygamy episodes talk about the damage to the husbands who sometimes lose their wives and children eternally, but were the boys just hanging around partnerless or were they abandoned or sent off on dangerous missions? What happened to solve the issue that generally there’s a fairly equal division of boys and girls. Disclaimer - I know this is presupposed heteronormativity, which I can’t even imagine the hell it would be to be otherwise in the early church, but even if we are just talking the majority, who probably would tend to couple up in a heterosexual marriages, this creates a big numbers problem that would need to be solved.
Excellent podcast, but extremely eye opening, especially when JS is compared to more recent so called prophets and how their persuasive ways are the same as JS’s.
His power over these women is actually diabolical
Thank you ... excellent show!!!!
I have to agree with you, John, that those who left the church are credible.
Wooo! “God only understands the order of heaven in part! (1:50:00) POINT!!! END LDS CHURCH!!!! WELL DONE MIKE! 👍
@58:47 In Joseph Smith's 1841 Teaching of No Sin if No Accuser:
"What many people call sin is not sin"
So,
Anyone remember that scripture in Isaiah 5:20 where it says "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil"?
Is there special pleading as to why this isn't contradictory,
Or are we just supposed to "Give brother Joseph a break"?
(General Conference Oct 4 2015 Elder Neil L. Andersen: ‘Faith Is Not by Chance, but by Choice’)
Great work 👍
I believe the 3rd Commandment - thou shall not take the lords name in vain, isn’t saying “oh God” or God d….. It’s using the name of God to get gain, money, power, and control. I believe this is something JS is most definitely guilty of.
Reread the happiness letter, so oft quoted by church leadership, with the second anointing in mind. The church "government" is maybe revealed a bit more.
Does anyone have more info about this trial? Is there a good source to read about it further?
9:28 I was told on one occasion that Oliver Cowdery took back his accusation regarding Joseph Smith's adulterous affair with Fanny Alger and that he admitted to making it up towards the end of his life. However, I have never heard this from anyone else or have ever been able to find anything of the sort online in my research. Does anyone else know anything about this and/or if this is true?
Thanks!
Thanks for all your hard work ... I recently left the Catholic church at 63... I am also deprogramming from Alcoholics ANONYMOUS ...after 17 years of being full in to the AA BIG BOOK...it has bn a painful and mind blowing experience... Thank you for giving me the words I needed to be super confident in my decisions... BTW.... AA can be extremely harmful and most definitely checks all boxes for being a cult... Huge bummer for me I thought I found the answer... But then I thought that too, when I belonged to Morning land which was also a cult .... Thanks for taking some of the guilt and shame away and place blame where it should be ... Sorry for long comment but I want u all to know how much I have learned and healed from your dedicated truth search ... You all 🪨 rock and I've watched all of this series it's the 💣 bomb👍🌞
Amen! I have came to same conclusions, praise the Lord we have the real gospel and correct Jesus we have been given power over these lies by his heart love and sacrifice and offering us this free gift of salvation.
Serious question: Whats the difference between “no accuser, no sin” and when Jesus asked the woman “where are thine accusers? Neither do I condemn thee” ?
Huge difference Jesus showed her grace but it still was a sin she committed.. Doubt she kept on doing it but Joseph Smith is saying there's no sin that takes place if you don't get caught
That revelation is ridiculous!
This stuff angers me so much too. Because these dudes didn’t care for their wives. Didn’t and FLDS don’t care if they have a place to stay, food to eat, etc. Only care about having enough wives for the celestial heavens. It is grossly abusive. They put these women into greater poverty to stroke their own egos.
God... The ultimate wingman
When I learned some of these things when I was in my teens and decided to ‘put my religion on pause’, I can look back on that time and feel good about never taking my religion off pause… All I knew then was I had learned enough to realize I needed to exercise my choice to not affiliate with it while I learned more - and even a decade or more since, I still learn horrifying things which surprise me about the church.
2:49:03 - You said Russell Nelson isn't propositioning women to practice polygamy, but he did remarry a younger woman and she talk about how they got together "for several weeks made overtures to try to get to know me better. In my own mind, I had wrestled with it and was quite certain there was no possible way that could be right. ..... it was a huge change. I say dramatic --- I say traumatic". - Wendy Nelson.
Excellent work as always. This is the first time I learn of this letter and Joseph Smiths predatory nature. Can we examine how the marketing has changed so much? Specifically on how the BOM is taught.
Just watching this….and listening to Mike talk about the part in the letter where Joseph talks about Solomon and his wives etc. Being brought up RLDS I believe Joseph Smith left the whole Song of Solomon out of his Inspired Version of the bible ( which we used). We were taught that was because the Song of Solomon was so “ dirty” and sexual that Joseph was told it should not be in the bible. Yikes and here he us using it in this letter to basically support his polygamous ideas
I don’t understand how anyone could stay a member in this church after realizing the truth
1:42:04 i also hear that and think it sounds just plain threatening, just a casual mention of how God could also order him to kill to kick off the letter... Very "persuasive". At least that's how it hits me as a female never-mo 🤷
Right? It was so sinister after claiming to be about happiness!
If you read the letter with no context its pretty easy to except it. I think most everything in the church is given without context. Then when you question the rest of the context it makes it yucky feeling. If you talk to anyone they sight "faith" to fill in and when you loose that faith it's like the rose colored glasses fall. It's like learning about santa only more sycophantic damage.
Did somebody take the name of the book John mentioned about polygamy? Something like the holiness… thx
In Sacred Loneliness
Sounds like the "ha penis" letter! :)
I don't know about you but I have seen the church in operation and been in the community of the saints for decades all over the world in the US and Europe, South America, former Soviet Union India and Asia. One cannot but be struck by the goodness of the principles and the community that exist in the church. It's undeniable in its effect. Even you folks who were raised in the church. You have immense qualities that derived from the practices you were taught.
So in spite of all the facts as you see them and rehearse them you have the church and church community today that is eminently good.
It's completely dumbfounding to me that General Authorities of the Church quote this letter so much. My suggestion, since it is wrong to criticize church leaders even when I am correct, is to not use this anymore in any meeting setting.
I love and support this podcast! Mike and the rest of the dude's be careful with your emotions because one may think that it gives one irrational thinking and bias feelings!
The word of the Lord to my servant, Joseph: Thou shalt take Nancy Hyde and provide her a better place to live and provide for her needs. Knoweth thou what I doth mean - nudgeth nudgeth winketh winketh - sayeth thou no more !
Where are the shows notes pls
At 2 hours and 46 minutes we get to hear apostles publicly quote The Happiness Letter. Of course TCOJCOLDS leaders will only quote the positive points and never the negative & manipulative parts; especially where Joseph Smith "throws God under the bus!"
I watch recaps of Sister Wives and it was first wife Meri's job to help recruit other women into the family.
I’m wondering how JS and other prophets were able to financially afford so many wives and children.
My 'hero of Mormonism' is Samuel Lawrence. He out seerered Joseph Smith and made him add to 'specticales' to his story. 2:34:30
Love Johnathan Streeter ☺️☺️☺️
That “Happiness Letter” is dangerous.
That kind of moral relativism is permissive of a whole host of awful behavior.
Mike, thank you for your indignation. It is important to teach our children critical thinking so they can spot the manipulation used by most cults. Thank you also for your respect for women. My husband and I were friends with a woman who was strongly Mormon for about forty years. During those years I thought we had agreed to disagree about our religious beliefs and hardly ever spoke about religion. I had told her clearly that we did not believe what she believed. She understood that we didn't want to discuss it but we were happy to have her as a friend. Over the forty years we continued as friends without talk about her beliefs. . But, at the end of these forty years my husband got sick and had dementia. This person whom I had considered a friend swooped in to take advantage of my husband and now try to convert him to her beliefs. I had to tell the hospital that she was not family and had no right to remove him from his hospital room again. She crossed so many boundaries. I know that maybe she felt she was helping him but I told her to leave him alone because his beliefs do not align with hers. She persisted and I was angry that she was confusing and upsetting him. I felt betrayed and I am still angry. This woman had worked for my husband and knew his beliefs but in his weakened state she thought she could move in. It broke my heart.
Does Mike have a MS episode?
Rob Fatheringham(sp?) from the Hemlock Knots channel said the Happiness Letter doesn’t exists. Their podcasts focuses on authentic documentation of church events, takes etc. Has anyone looked into the authenticity of The Happiness Letter? What is the original source for the letter?
Sounds like apologetics to me.
@@mormonstories that’s what I thought at first but some of the material does look pretty substantive it would be nice if someone better equipped looked into it like RFM, Dan Vogel, because they do take a different approach than your classic apologetics
25:51 - Speaking of missing documents about polygamy, my ancestor Patty Bartless Sessions wrote in her diary pretty much every day, but the entries before 1846 have been lost. Or my theory what if someone has them, but doesn't want anyone to see what she wrote about? She was sealed March 9, 1842. She wrote about it 18 years after it happened and said: "I was sealed to Joseph Smith by Willard Richards March 9 1842 in Newel K Whitneys chamber Nauvoo for Eternity and I and if I do not live to attend to it myself when there is a place prepared I want some one to attend to it for me according to order Sylvia my daughter/ was present when I was sealed to Joseph Smith."
What were the violent parts of the temple ceremony?
Just something to think about, maybe even do a show on it, the temple endowment ceremony. I was raised LDS & my family on both my mother's side were pioneers. I am so glad that I always questioned the church since I was a child, as if I were to have gone to the temple endowment, & saw Lucifer in the ceremony, I would have run out of there so fast, no one would've ever known, I was there! In the movie of creation or the acted version, Adam asks Lucifer what is it that he was wearing. Lucifer says, he is wearing the apron of "His" Priesthoods. Then they stop the movie & tell everyone to put on their aprons. Are You Kidding Me?!! The LDS Church worships Lucifer, hence Joseph Smith's deviante behavior & all the lying of the church elites. I am Shocked that no one is talking about this! At the end of the ceremony, they talk about God & his son, the son of God, which son? As, the LDS church believes Lucifer is the son of God & Jesus's brother. In my observation, the members of the LDS Church are being misled & are being gathered by Lucifer. Please do a show on this, as it is the premise behind the entire LDS doctrine.
Brilliantly said. I’ve thought of the same thing. Horrific
@@dsoule4902 They couldn't disclose it, or they'd be finished! I don't understand why they stay? I've heard people say they wanted to leave, but their entire family was there, they felt obligated to stay. Just having Lucifer play a part in the ceremony, at the mere .entire of his name, I would've be outta there!
I've tried to talk to my brother & told him how I prayed about 10 times, to see more truth. There are Bible verses, that describe the church, read 2 Corinthians, chapter 11. May our Father in Heaven bless us all & keep us safe always! Lots of Love to All❣ Pray for those that can't see the Truth! 🙏🏾🥰🙏
@@dsoule4902 Thank You! That was beautiful! Love & Peace be with you, from our Father, as well❣
If apologists disagree that Joseph Smith is the author of the teachings of the Happiness Letter, then they should have it removed from pages 255 and 256 of The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Can anyone tell me if this ruined Nancy Rigdon’s life? Accusations made against her can ruin women’s lives today. I am imagining all sorts of things that could have happened to her. I hope my worse case scenario thinking is wrong.