Why Does God Allow Suffering? A Latter-day Saint and Evangelical Pastor Conversation
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- Опубліковано 20 січ 2024
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Because we see our purpose here on earth differently, our answers to this question differ as well. For Latter-day Saints, this question goes to the heart of our purpose and includes the doctrine of a Pre-Mortal life and the Plan of Salvation.
Listen to Evangelical Pastor Jeff McCullough talk about our differences and our agreements on this philosophical and religious question.
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Every time I have or see these conversations with people outside of the LDS faith, I am so grateful for the gospel of Jesus Christ that has been restored through Joseph Smith. It gives such beautiful answers to these questions that other denominations struggle to explain and clarify.
My thoughts exactly.
Amen
I agree 💯
I agree 💯
I didn’t see any struggle from Pastor Jeff at all in his answer to these questions.
As I listen to what Pastor Jeff believes the more I'm happy for the restoration of the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ through the prophet Joseph Smith Jr.
I'm glad for the knowledge God has given me by the power of the Holy Ghost and for the Book of Mormon and modern day revelation through his chosen living prophets and apostles.
What pastor Jeff believes calling us image bearers is not scripture. We are the children of God and we look like him. We lived with him before we was born into mortality. The Bible is so clear on this it's sad that he is blind to what the Bible actually teaches and testifies.
Knowing who we truly are and our true identity and relationship with Diety is vital for our salvation and exhaltation. The the divine eternal truth is that, God truly is our Father, the Father of our eternal spirit and we truly are his spirit children, then and only then we will know how to approach him and talk to him as a child with his Father.
@@geoffreypalmer2661 There truly was a restoration and there was a great apostasy in which men turned from the truths of God and his chosen servants and killed them and those who held the keys of his holy priesthood was taken out of the midst of the people. This was fortold by the prophets to happen and the promised restoration also which did happen with the heavens opening with the first vision to Joseph Smith Jr who was called of God to be his prophet, seer and revelator to open this last dispensation of the gospel.
That rock is the rock of revelation from God the Eternal Father that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God! This is personal revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost which gives this knowledge and testifies of The Father and the Son.
It is this divine witness and knowledge of God and Christ that the gates of hell shall not prevail against.
Joseph Smith Jr had a divine vision and revelation of God the Eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ our Savior and testified of their reality, the divinity of Christ, his atonement, crucifixion, resurrection and glory and our relationship with them. The prophet Joseph Smith lived as a prophet, taught as a prophet, received revelations and prophocied as a prophet and died as a prophet of God. He brought for more of God's words through the revelations he received and by translating the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God to the interpretation thereof which is another testiment of Jesus Christ and stands as a second witness to both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ. Through Joseph Smith the prophet God has restored his one and only true church and kingdom upon the earth known to the world as The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has all the rights, powers, ordinances, keys and priesthood authority for the salvation and exaltation of all of God's children, and to prepare us for the second coming of the Messiah.
I know this for myself, God bearing witness to my spirit by the power of the Holy Ghost of these things. No man or men can take this witness and knowledge from me and that brings me great joy. All can come to this knowledge by the power of the Holy Ghost if they sincerely read the Book of Mormon prayerfully and ask God having faith in Christ and in the name of Jesus Christ if it is true. I promise that if they do this with real intent you too can gain a witness from God🙏🏽❤️😊
@@geoffreypalmer2661 The Gates of Hell did not prevail. But still a Restoration was needed.
Why do you believe that Scripture means what you say it means?
“If God would concede me His omnipotence for 24 hours, you would see how many changes I would make in the world. But if He gave me His wisdom too, I would leave things as they are.”
― J.M.L. Monsabre
I love your conversations with this pastor
Thank you Greg for being a great example and being the first one to bring up Jesus in your responses.
Thanks for another great show, Greg! I’m so thankful we are blessed to know that we understood in our pre-mortal existence there would be suffering in mortality, and yet we still chose to enter into this second estate. Knowing who I am, why I am here, and where I will go after this life is what keeps life bearable in difficult times.
As a small child I went through some really bad times, things that have caused others to loose their mind. Yet I stand and can testify of Christ. I still suffer from chronic pain. I dont question why anymore. I know how rebellious I am and this helps teach me. My Father knows me better than I know myself. Do I like the pain.. heavens NO!!! But I have learned to understand myself a little better because of it.
I love the conversations with Pastor Jeff. I don't agree with all that evangelicals believe, but these conversations help me understand his understanding better. I know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints is Christ's Church here on earth. And I'm grateful to get to understand why evangelical ɓelieve what they believe. He has opened a door that has been shut way too long. Thank you!
I appreciate the thoughtful dialogue about the practical impacts of theological differences on our everyday experiences. Your abilities to engage in these discussions respectfully allows for valuable insights to be shared across both perspectives.
This was a fantastic respectful dialogue of beliefs!! Great job! Well done!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I find it interesting how in the context of agency at least, he sees things pertaining to this life as the why, but we see God's upholding of the Law of Agency as the why, and the events of this life as the how.
Great conversation. I’ve gone through a hellish health complication that altered my life forever five years ago, it changed my faith, I believe for the better.But it isn’t easy to always remember that so conversations like this are helpful.♥️♥️♥️
Regarding suffering: Elder Christopherfen (sp), in General Conference, 2013, gave this marvelous insight : "The atonement also satisfies the debt justice owes to us, by healing and compensating us for any suffering we innocently endure". So we have an IOU from the Lord!! (He doesn't, however, specify when the IOU will be honored). But we know that God always honors his promises. When we have never experienced trials, we could never appreciate the final healing he will provide.
Why Does God Allow Suffering?
2 Nephi 2:11 by quoting the passage in full: For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. :>)
Greg, you sure do have a lot of patience with this guy who often wants to tell you how you're wrong and throw you under the bus, but in a way where he's thinking he's clever and sly, but it's actually just annoying and condescending...and obvious. I also think that it's interesting how both on your channel and on his channel, when you're together, he does most of the talking and you do most of the listening and a little talking. Like who's trying to convince who? 😄 Keep being awesome!
Knowing that we chose to endure suffering as part of the plan is comforting. I might question why I’m suffering if I also believed I didn’t choose to be born.
I love these interviews with different perspectives on the same issues that faithful people of every sect grapple with. As a Catholic convert, we all tend to recycle and regurgitate our own answers, it's wonderful to hear a different perspective and texture on these eternal questions, and vexations of the soul. thank you!
Not this is a debate or anything but Pastor Jeff's response really showed an inadequacy in the Evangelical method to answer the question. He says, "It (An answer) will elude us." When from a Restored Gospel answer is "We elude it." Jeff can only answer the "What" where as with continuing open cannon revelation LDS can answer the much more important "Why".
Pastor Jeff: Hello! My channel is about showing LDS folks about what Evangelicals believe. And also Evangelicals can learn about what the LDS folks believe!
Mormons in the comments section: This is great! Love what you're doing Pastor Jeff! Thank you for doing this. I've learned a lot so far
Evangelicals in the comments section: Mormons are a cult. You believe in a different Jesus and you believe you get your own planet. The BOM was written by Joseph Smith
It really has struck me how brainwashed some Evangelicals are from their paid pastors. I have experienced the hate by evangelical pastors on my mission and even when I lived outside of Utah. They know that hate sells faster than the gospel of peace. This is why most evangelicals online spend more time talking about Mormons than about Jesus.
i stopped watching PJ when i realized he wasnt being open. He said hes curious about LDS, but only follows exmo accounts. His reading of the BoM wasnt curious, it was to try to correct. and his absence of speaking up to evangelicals about their wrongs is apparent. his main audience to convert is lds.
What I so appreciate about Latter Day Saints is the focus of a forgiven life is the Ressurection. The cross was necessary and is still important in our lives as an example of dying to self and living for Christ, as well as to be remembered every time we have communion, as Jesus told us to do this in remembrance of Him and his sacrifice for us. Sacrifice always that comes from a heart of love devoted to God, will always include suffering. Philippians 3:8-10 exhorts a Christian to have this desire alive in us. Knowing that He fellowships with us in deeper ways as we experience suffering, for another or through a life circumstance that affects ourselves, when our focus is on Jesus and our home in heaven and all that includes
Is the truth we look toward. Our Ressurected bodies will be perfect and never again suffer as we do in our fallen bodies. Look what Love did for us! How glorious our future is!😊❤
Love you both, great discussion!
As it says in 2 Nephi 2:23 we only know joy because we know misery.
I would love to hear from Jeff how he has helped individuals get through the trials and tribulations of life and not just preach about it.
It’s easy to preach it. Harder to do it without experience and trial and failure. Every man and woman is backed up to that wall of faith.
Thanks!
You're welcome. Thank you!
Great discussion boys. Thanks.
You're welcome!
I can’t listen to Pastor Jeff anymore. I stopped listening about the time he decided to move to Utah. At that point all the red flags went up, and I could see clearly the end goal of what he was doing. His lack of understanding, or even true openness to the gospel of Jesus Christ, became so clear that I could see the actual confusion that protestant and evangelical Christianity actually sit in. God be thanked for a Prophet, the Book of Mormon, the restoration of the priesthood, and a clear understanding of God‘s perfect, designed plan of salvation for all of his children. And of course, God be thanked for the immeasurable gift of His son Jesus Christ through whom all of this is possible. Let any trial we face ultimately bring us closer to Him and His matchless love, and help us understand His end goal for all God’s children, that of eternal life and exaltation.
agreed
I love these conversations - thank you so much! I would, however, make a slight adjustment to what we believe as LDS members. We often say this life is a test or trial. I like to think of this life as a lab instead. The perfect place that God set up with contrasts and adversity to learn, grow, and make choices. When you look at life this way you soon see that there are three main purposes to life: 1) Know the difference between love and fear and all its variants. If we lived with God before, we only knew love. 2) Co-create with God and with each other (our neighbors) and understand what it is to create in a very small way like God and 3) To learn and experience in a mortal realm, which helps us move toward and experience a heavenly or perfected realm.
You could say a fourth purpose would be to exercise agency and choice, but that really fits into all three previously mentioned and drives the outcomes for each.
Now, from an LDS standpoint, or maybe from any believing standpoint, you can fit everything about this life experience in. Take all the commandments - they are based in love and going against them distances us from God, which is causes fear and sin. All our desire to have a family, work hard, build community, and create is driven to Co-Create and we have to have faith and intention to do it. And everything we do to improve ourselves or enjoy life is about learning and experiencing.
Now, take the thought of suffering and Christ’s atonement and the Father’s sacrifice in this context and we can easily see this life lab as the perfect creation, even co-creation, for our growth to be more like God. It is His sacrifice that makes it possible. The gospel is the great news, this life is the great experience! Thanks and praise be to God!!!
Great discussion! As a Latter-day Saint it’s my understanding that Satan was created like all of Heavenly Father’s children were and just like us he had the gift of agency and he rebelled. I agree that it was definitely Heavenly Father’s will that he be cast down to the earth along with the spirits that chose to follow him.
My dad always taught us that this life was not meant to be fair, and that we don't find out why in this life. Why will be answered in the next life.
I know this is maybe a bit pedantic, but I think life is meant to be fair. 100%fair. The problem is we don’t think of the same definition of fair as God does. We tend to think of it in the physical/temporal realm- same amount of money, same health, etc. God I believe thinks of it spiritually and eternally. For him fair is all about the same opportunity to reach exaltation. For that to happen he has to give us experiences we need and what we need isn’t the same as what someone else needs.
You guys should read Adam S. Miller’s “Original Grace”. It’s outstanding on this topic.
“Does suffering, in general, have a purpose? No. Suffering is just a fact of life. But suffering can, by way of grace, be given a purpose. In addition to being relieved, it can be redeemed. It can teach and strengthen and empower. It can, in God’s hands, be repurposed for growth and progress.”
Whenever I'm challenged with the "If there really is an all knowing, all powerful, all loving God then why does he allow suffering" argument, I always reply with the "If there really is an all knowing, all powerful, all loving God, do you think you're smart enough to question his methods?" response.
We can act in faith through trials, be tested / show our faith etc.. Suffering becomes more than something we endure.
40:32 I knew you were going to bring up the principle of agency, lol. I was waiting for it, and it came! Super fun to watch.
This is one of the easiest things to understand in the true church. One thing I’d like to share when I was searching answers for me: For the example: Sickness was ordained that we do not cling too much to mortality. Heber C. Kimball. March 19, 1854. Reported by G. D. Watt. I’m glad to have true prophets. Also Evil Spirits cause it. Brigham Young. On the death of President Jedediah M. Grant. Salt Lake City, December 4,1856
IVE BEEN WANTING YOUR TAKE ON THIS QUESTION FOR SO LONG!!! I haven’t watched through yet but I’m genuinely so excited, this’ll be a hit for sure!
2 Nephi chapter 2
Yes this life is a trial: "I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God." Zachariah 13:9
Moral agency is fundamental to Gods plan without it He would be restricting peoples growth, in whichever direction they choose, and its based upon people's choices. God wants us all to choose Him but will not force the human mind to make it happen. Only the devil tries to force people to do what he wants but even then he is limited by the choices humans make but if people choose to do evil things that is very likely to cause others to suffer through no fault of their own, good or bad
47:39 God says come as you are. But to stay as you are is not accepting the gift He gave when he let you come to the wedding feast. There is no excuse to not put on thy beautiful garments, o Zion.
35:40 (Alma ch 14)
And they spit upon him, and cast him out from among them, and also all those who believed in the words which had been spoken by Alma and Amulek; and they cast them out, and sent men to cast stones at them. 8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire. 9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire. 10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames. 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.
It seems to me that the ultimate question to as those of other Christian faiths is "Why did God create us?" Another might be "Are we the only ones he has created?"
“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” 4 Romans 8:16-17
Alma 12. Suffering happens so there is a righteous judgment.
Nahum 1:15 supports your assertion that as saviors on Mt. Zion, we follow the covenant path of Jesus and be like Him as a servant to bless others:
15 Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.
Because of the belief that God knows all, wouldn’t God know that Adam and Eve would fall? It brings me comfort to believe that God built the fall into the bigger plan.
I love hearing the various perspectives. All our suffering works for our good when we turn our hearts to God.
More than that. If God knows all, he knew Satan was going to try to tempt Eve, knew when Satan was about to tempt Eve and knew when Satan was tempting Eve, yet God chose not to stop Satan. If Adam and Eve were never meant fall, God would have stopped Satan. And now because Satan tempted Adam and Eve, they became as gods, in that they know good from evil, so even if men returned to a Garden Of Eden state, they would already be better and even more Godly than they were before the fall.
I really like what Pastor Jeff said about laying down your life [for those you love]. I needed to hear that today
We suffer as a good person to be a testimony that our lives reflect the contentment that comes from God alone. I am just reading the Book of Mormon now in 1830 edition, and there are so many examples of this in the experiences of several good and godly people. The Bible has so many examples attesting the same. I know my growth in Christ has been affected more by those "good" people who by choice chose to be tenacious and shine the love.of Christ. To me I don't care how much money you have, or perfect health or family all successful. I have met so many so called "good" people who claim they are godly, and yet have no genuine empathy for others of any depth who have not exercised their faith through suffering. I call suffering God's spiritual gym where we work out our salvation. 😊😊❤❤
The main purpose of suffering is to bring us to God. Isaiah teaches this.
I’d be interested in understanding the various views evangelicals have on agency and compare them with the restored gospel.
I have never heard of an evangelical talk about agency. Would be a very interesting conversation
39:34 in this case Greg misspoke. The LDS doctrine teaches that we are changed by the Savior as our hearts are changed. What I think he meant was that while the Savior is the one doing the changing, we need to allow him to by following him and abiding by his precepts.
Yes, even Christ suffered, are we any greater than him.
Your reference about having to suffer so God’s judgement is just to towards the wicked @36:00 is found in Alma. It is when the people are being burned if I remember right and is being stated to Amulek.
4:50 actually these questions do not and need not allude us because God has already answered these questions. Questions answered by the restoration of the gospel.
People don’t get the greatness gift we have is free agency.
Why does Pastor Jeff repeatedly keep shifting his eyes from side to side? He also turns his head from side to side. His body language indicates “shiftiness”?
C’mon
This is a great topic and I even wonder about it. I agree with Pastor Jeff, and I think theologically we as LDS in general agree with the fact that we are fallen creatures since the time Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden. So I think the origins we can agree with.
Growing up, as a healthy person for many years watching my grandparents, then parents lose health, it gave me an opportunity to serve them. It was good for that purpose, but they were hurting. Now I'm older I hurt and things they said, for example my grandpa was told he could live 100 years, his response was "if I have to feel like this, I don't want to" I didn't understand that when he said it. Now that I feel more pain constantly, I understand him more. I'm only 46 pushing 47 this week and I've been in the hospital for five days and I've expressed to my wife I'd rather die than have to live that life.
It still doesn't answer the question. For example, the blind man born blind, the answer that he nor his parents sinned sounds great but a part of me looks at the reason as "did God make this man suffer to show off his powers later", as a big "what"? That wasn't fair.
Legally, it doesn't appear God wants us to suffer. He forbade Adam and Eve from partaking of the fruit knowing it's consequences and he's given us various laws associated with how we treat our fellow man, by not causing them to suffer.
The question comes to God's nature as an all loving all powerful being and most important to us a loving father. I would never want my daughters to have to suffer and will do everything in my power to keep them from suffering and relieving the suffering that comes to them from the accidents that happen and other growing pains. This is the part of him that I don't get, if we being evil know how to give our children good things why doesn't he use his all power and remove the suffering. It is an issue I continue to struggle with and pray about, I'm not going to lie.
I don’t want my children to suffer but I have to allow them to suffer, I must not prevent natural consequences, because that suffering will teach them deeper lessons than I am capable of teaching, the suffering will enable them perspective to value goodness.
This is an angle that I didn't think about. The suffering of others many times presents opportunities for service for those that are in that person's life.
I don’t know if this will help but here is an analogy I find useful. Suppose you are a parent with a child looking at two possible career options, both of which you have absolute power to grant or deny. The first is a white-collar office job that will set them up for life, absolute rock solid financial security. The problem is that it’s an intellectual, emotional, and creative dead-end, shuffling papers, technical enough to require mental sharpness, but unchanging and will make little to no difference in anyone’s life, even their’s beyond security.
The second is a job in a paramilitary infiltration and rescue force, the highest rated/respected in the world. The training to qualify alone is grueling, dangerous, and many wash out. Injuries are not just common but routine, even severe, and that danger will only increase if they graduate. Worse, they will often be in situations where failure means death, or _worse_ than death, at the hands of those who do not hesitate at cruelty. But this is the career your child _wants._ It will challenge them, toughen them, take them to their breaking point and well past. It will force them to grow. But above all, their life and possible death will have purpose, meaning.
So, as a loving parent, what do you choose for your child? Safety but permanent stunting of their potential? Or a certainty of _some_ suffering and a high risk of death, but also the opportunity for the full expression of their potential and a life of meaning?
Keep in mind that all of us chose to be born into this world. Our Father didn’t force any of us. He no more delights in our suffering than you would delight in the suffering of your daughters. But he loves us enough to allow our suffering, for the sake of what it can teach us and those around us. As painful and soul wrenching as the present may be, we need to keep an eternal perspective.
I don't have answers to why you, your parents, and grandparents are or have suffered, but I'm sure there is a reason. One of our earlier apostles said in a Conference talk. Don't ask why. Ask what can I learn from this.
My husband had polio at the age of 7. He lived to the age of 63. A couple months before he died, he told our oldest daughter and me that nobody knew the pain he suffered every day of his life since stricken with polio! I knew that Jesus not only knew but suffered the pain so He could strengthen Him when he asked for relief! He never complained. He just endured it. He died 22 years ago. I'm sure he now knows the why. I believe our trials are taylor made for each of us. Because of the things we failed to learn in the premortal life. We need to learn them if we hope to be exalted. That's just me speaking. I hope you can find answers and the will to endure what you must. 🙏🙏
Us suffering gives us something to compare with others, so we can guess what they are going through, seeing others suffering allows us to have empathy and give service to help relieve their suffering. Lessons that would be impossible without suffering. Which allows us to grow. Satan's plan was for everyone to always only do good. They would never know suffering, but they would also never know joy or pleasure or good even. They would have nothing to compare or contrast.
This is an exceptional example of why I am atheist.
I'm glad that atheist are interested to watch these kind of conversation about God. ❤
@@staxplease It's an interesting topic, for all.
14:00 this is beautiful, Jeff. I like the way you worded that.
I would point to the three types of trials identified by ElderNeal A Maxwell. His explanationisvery enlightening.
An aside, have you ever noticed that Father also has never directly answered the question of why on the subject plural marriage?
Yes, Jeff, Satan is a personage of Spirit. Why don't you just surrender and accept the truth?
Where would faith and hope be without struggles such as losing a child etc.. are we being selective when it comes to faith? We speak of faith and hope in Christ etc.. yet we would rather avoid experiences that will test our faith or strengthen it?? It's like claiming to have a sure foundation while wanting to avoid that foundation being tested or put to the test??
Romans 8:17; And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
1 Peter 4:19; Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Revelation 2:10; Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Like Peter being told to “feed my sheep” three times, (John 21:15-17) We are told to Suffereth long, Beareth all things and Endureth all things. It is very important if Christ thought He needed to tell us three times. Charity is the pure love of Christ,
1 Corinthians 13:1-8, Moroni 7:44-45.
Greg, I have a question which I guess is actually several questions. Doesn’t deification require personal infinite suffering in order to obtain omniscience? Doesn’t omniscience require absolute empathy on our part? How else could we get there without infinitely suffering ourselves?
I feel like this is paradoxical because LDS belief is that Christ must be the one to suffer for our sins in order to reach exaltation. It must be vicarious, it must be by proxy. However, we also believe man cannot be saved in ignorance, and omniscience is part of deification. Does Christ’s atonement actually spare us from suffering in this case? Or would it be more accurate to say we get to experience infinite happiness in addition to infinite suffering? The atonement paradoxically seems to involve infinite yet finite suffering.
22:50 What? God is not like us, we are like God? That's not at all true if you believe Jesus took upon himself a body and retains that body. How can a Trinitarian say that Jesus answers how we can understand God and that God is nothing like us in the same breath? Can you clarify?
I would simply respond, "Why not?"
I think pasta Jeff understands cognitively as he has read a lot but I’m not sure he understands spiritually
I have never thought that “why does suffering exist” to be a very interesting question, and I am always surprised when people are perplexed by the “problem of evil.”
Are you trying to imagine a universe without suffering and happiness? It sounds like a bizarre Star Trek episode where they find non-sentient anhedonic life forms. What amount of suffering would be tolerable for people to justify their belief in God’s existence? It is very arbitrary for people to bring up childhood bone cancer and other natural disasters. The “problem of evil” is a logical non-issue and does nothing to prove or disprove God’s existence or omnibenevolence. It can be a logical mechanism for the narrative of probation.
John 20:19 KJV
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
How would you respond if you saw a person you saw murdered on a Cross three days earlier appear in the middle of a closed room. He didn't come through the door, He. just appeared in the middle of the room. Would you be terrified? Would you be frightened? Would you think a spirit had appeared to you?
Luke 25: 37-39 KJV
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(Romans 6:9 KJV)shows us that Christ had his immortal body of flesh and bones that will never die again when He was resurrected.
Two prophets, will go to heaven in their bodies of flesh and bones spoken of in (Revelation 11 KJV)
You are familiar with the scriptures that says we know not what we will be, but we know we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Understanding that our body, like Christ's body, of flesh and bones, that will never die again does not have blood, but instead is quickened, made alive, by spirit, helps us understand that Paul is teaching that no mortal, (flesh and blood) only immortals, (flesh and bones and spirit) will enter the kingdom of God in (1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV). That is why Paul teaches in (1 Corinthians 15 KJV) that an immortal body is a spiritual body, but is not a spirit, as in when Christ told His disciples to feel the prints of the nails and sword in His body after He was resurrected, so they would know He is not a spirit.
Please look up the King James scriptures that show that everyone will be resurrected.
If Adam's children, us, would have been born immortal could any prison hold them? No!!!!! Why, because they could pass through the walls, like Jesus appeared in the middle of a closed room. Could a bullet kill them? No!!!!! Would they have to obey any laws written? No!!!!!, because no jail or prison could hold them.
If Adam and Eve's children had been born immortal they would not need food to live. They would not need cloths to stay warm. They would not need shelter. They would not need horses or cars for transportation. Christ vanished out of the sight of His disciples when they recognized Him after He prayed after He was resurrected. If Adam and Eve's children were born immortal and it was freezing rain in Germany, they could go to Japan in an instant where it was not raining.
If Adam and Eve's children were immortal from birth no farms would be made, no roads, no houses, no cloths, no buildings, no industry, the earth would be one big wilderness.
If Adam and Eve's children were born immortal would they be teachable? Would they listen to anyone? No!!!!! Not even to God!!!!!!!
Christ paid the price for all sin, including Adam's transgression, over 2000 years ago, yet we still die? Why? Because we, Adam and Eve's children , would not listen to us or God if we were immortal from birth.
This life is to help us learn from the weakness of mortality. Only The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints teaches this, because only the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is the true church of Jesus Christ. Job asked the question " If a man die, shall he live again?" Then later in Job Job says to his friends, " Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, o ye my friends, for the hand of God hath touched me. Why do you persecute me as God,? Why are ye not satisfied with my flesh. Oh that my words were now written, that they were printed in a book! that they were graven with an iron pen and [ lead poured in them, so they would last forever] for I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, and though after these skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall see God! Who I will see with mine own eyes, and not another, though my reigns be consumed in me! "
Jeff, if you want the book I wrote with all the scriptural citations just let me know
Why? Because life is suffering. The quicker you accept that, the less you will suffer.
The story of Job is not "mysterious," afflictions and "bad things happening" is a part of life and we are inspired by the righteous example of Job are we not? Everything in life has its opposite. He suffered and remained faithful, and Christ is also a perfect example of remaining faithful through His suffering. I'm sure the story of Job would not be in the Bible if his life was a walk in the park.
The question was not ultimately answered by Pastor Jeff. It's not why is there suffering, it's why does God permit it? Why does it exist at all? Why create a scenario where the fall could happen in the first place? Why put a tree there that could separate us from him? Just saying that we live in a fallen world doesn't answer those questions.
they cant answer questions like that without the restoration.
Wilderness wanderer.
Any attempt to explain the process of sanctification without opposition in all things would be silly.
Ask Jeff what he is doing for income there in Utah. Ask him where he thinks the Book of Mormon came from.
Why? These are the wrong questions.
None of your business what he does for income for his family. People are allowed to have different opinions,beliefs, etc..
@@CwicShowcan you ask why he said hes curious but only follows exmo accounts on insta
I disagree when you say “God created Satan”. God created Lucifer - the son of the morning, the light-giver. Lucifer, using his agency, sought unrighteous dominion and BECAME Satan, the Devil.
Agreed. I was referencing who he is now.
@@CwicShowmany Evangelicals come at the LDS with the whole “Jesus created all things, then how can Lucifer and Jesus be brothers?” line. Without a belief in the pre-existence, it’s hard to explain. I wonder what Jeff’s thoughts on that are. He doesn’t believe in the pre-existence, but seems to believe that Lucifer was a fallen Angel. But I guess he just doesn’t believe Lucifer and God were the same species of being, in that things that came to live in earth only started to exist at the time of their birth or conception; whereas God existed alone from the human family, but was surrounded only by angels and demons - a completely different species of god-like creatures??
@@mycatwould Yes, that is their beliefs.
Good point. Satan, the Devil created himself. Likely Greg was talking about the spirit person who became Satan. Definitely a good statement on the importance of free agency. Definitely a thought process creating statement. Rare that anyone makes a statement that takes me in a thought process direction I have not given time to in relation to to the related topic. Did God actually know the specific spirit son who would lead the rebellion against Him? In the Pearl of Great Price we read that there were many upper level intelligences, speaking in the context of prior to becoming spirit son's and daughters of God, and that Moses, Abraham, and others were among those intelligences. The scriptures teach that Christ was perfect as a Spirit, and that God was willing to place the destiny of even Himself as remaining God on Christ's shoulders, because if Christ would have sinned, Lucifer would be God. Why, because God's plan failed if Christ sinned, and Lucifer would be right. God knew Christ would not fail. God knew that Jeremiah would be a good prophet, and is why He ordained him before he was born. God knew Lucifer was ultimately Satan, before he became God's spirit son. Does that mean He created Satan? That opens the logical door that all intelligences must be allowed to become spirit sons or daughters of God, and that perfect natural law requires it. Now you know why I began the conversation as I did. You have put me on a logical path I have not taken before, and that I am not finished with. The answer is fear! Christ obeyed God without any fear. Lucifer feared he would not succeed with freedom of choice. Moses sought for God's help to escape the incoming chariots instead of going back to Egypt in the face of fear! Joseph Smith prayed even though severe attacks by Satan in the face of fear. Joseph Smith continued to do the work of restoring the gospel in the face of great fear and persecution. God knows which intelligences will succeed, and which will not by how they deal with fear!!!!!!!
Would that be to say that Christ created himself? By choosing to follow God’s plan he the was created into a different being? Is that not what your claim is here about Lucifer creating himself into Satan by his choices?
Our Loving God works through trials. suffering is inevitable at least I have experienced suffering in times. through suffering of the body we can turn to God in a way we would not naturally do. we as Jesus Christ can suffer. we might be asked to endure a bitter cup.
the biggest question we need to ask ourselves is Do we turn to him. He is God. Our suffering shall pass away. but God is eternal. he will be there before suffering, during suffering if we turn to him, and after suffering he will be there. God is always there. we are not always there for him.
There needs to be opposition in all things. Satan exists as our Brother who was cast down. for us he plays a role significant enough to have interplay with our daily lives. through his power of influence we can recognize the opposite of Jesus Christ. in personality, in light. and in mandate.
as we have been charged to take upon us the name of Jesus Christ. we can also take upon us the name of Satan. and some are having his image in their countenance. this is from our works. whether they be good or evil. what image are we taking upon ourselves?
I disagree with Jeff on we are not called to take upon ourselves Jesus Christ's attributes, this is what we need to become perfected in Christ. through time and diligence in becoming like him. this is the only way.
Paster Jeff, cold is not the absence of heat. it is molecules that are moving slower. Agitated molecules create heat. If you are going to come up with a lame analogy in a twisted attempt to tie the various threads of non logic together, at least try and have some more consistency.
Good question we all ask, here's another question.... Why do some people go through so much pain and suffering and hardship and others don't? .... there's no equality, there's no balancethere's no sense to any of that, so why? And yet another question, if someone stays faithful, l but has a pretty smooth, easy Life, a good life, and others go through something similar to a Job in the Bible, how can it even be gauged justly?
This is just theory, but as this mortal life is only a part of our eternal journey - perhaps it is as a consequence of our choices in the premortal life. My patriarchal blessing mentions that I had the opportunity to see premortally some of the trials that I would endure - yet I still chose to come. I’m on the team that agrees that our trials are not punishment, but God’s way of polishing us into the smooth stones he wants us to become. Maybe those who seem to not suffer outwardly are battling some serious inner demons that we don’t know about. I think we all put on good masks, and most of us, no matter what we are struggling with, will typically answer the question of “how are you doing?” with “I’m fine”, when really - we are all on sinking boats…but the good news is that out lifeguard walks on water!
I don’t think anyone has a smooth easy life. It may appear to others to be that way but everyone I have gotten to know, EVERYONE, has sorrow that the eye can’t see so to speak. We may suffer differently, but we all suffer.
Some people suffer with quiet things that don't involve tragedy or disease. And they are no less difficult for each person!
Does suffering need to be equal among all people?
@@kristinrichmond8185 Well, how is it some suffer so much and others not, that's my point. And, how can this be fairly judged
There is no intellectual reason why good people have to suffer. Part of the reason is that man creates a lot of suffering. This is due to human agency. People do very bad things and make poor choices. Suffering occurs in all parts of the animal kingdom. The difference is that humans have the psychological ability to take themselves as an object. Self-reflection is a unique occurrence in humans. They can say "I feel pain" or "I am grieving for a loss". Phillip Yancey has written on lessons from suffering. He worked in palliative care at one point and has great insight into the human condition and suffering.
At 14:58 Greg: I think we both agree that God created Satan, I know we both agree that God created Satan.
Jeff: Yes
I would say it a different way. God created Lucifer. But Lucifer became Satan or the devil, by the choices he made. God did not create evil. Lucifer rebelled against God (sin) and lead a rebillion against God (sin). God did not create rebellion (sin). It is God who keeps life going here even though it is a fallen world. Jesus Christ is the plan of salvation from this fallen world, death, hell, and Satan and his "angels"/devils. The Bible, Book of Mormon, the book of Doctrine and Covenants, and the book of the Pearl of Great Price support this view.
I love to see you two having a discussion that can bring some light, despite the differences in theology. That is following Christ. That is doing His bidding. People out there need this message. 🙏🪻💟
Greg, use more scriptures! There is authority behind what you're saying in the scriptures ;)
Using scriptures against an Evangelical quickly becomes Bible bashing. Evangelicals can't help themselves being taught from the Bible, their ego is stronger than their faith at times.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 Good point ☝️
This so-called friend to the Latter-day Saints 'ain't' a friend at all. So.... I wonder, is he invited for the clicks, cause usually your reasonable. Dig deeper into his motives brother.
Brother, I know him much better than you do.
Why do you give this “anti” a platform. He only cares about leading people away from the restored gospel.
You are making a gargantuan assumption.
true, his actions show that. he only follows exmo accounts on insta
First mistake if you believe the Bible. Satan or Lucifer is a man a brother! Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Second mistake if your Mormon. God did not create Satan. What or who is Satan? He is an intelligence like unto us. God supplied a body for him first spiritual, he could not have a mortal body like unto us neither they that followed him why? They all rejected Gods plan in favour for Satans plan
DC 93 intelligence
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
But God creates bodies for intelligences or the soul to dwell in.
If God created Satan as an intelligence then it would be Gods fault that Satan was like he is. Why then did God not create everyone like Jesus Christ perfect and avoided all this suffering? Because He cant do it, Christ is like He is through choice. Satan made a bad choice and is now suffering the consequences. Same with me if I make bad choices here I bring bad consequences upon myself. Here on earth we are able to follow Christ or Satan both offering a way of life, only you know what suits you best, ie how much good or evil you want in your life and a kingdom is set a side for the laws you are willing to live up to, D&C88:22-24 its you that decide your eternal fate not God He encourages you to ascend to the highest level, if you reject what are you saying? I happy where I am thankyou. So its a telestial world you end up residing in because you chose it not because God punished you. Satan will bring you as low down as you will let him by harkening to his voice.
We are here to be proven. How can we be proven without adversary? Abraham 3:22-28
We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. 27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. 28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Satan became angry, not created angry.
Yes your basically right why good people suffer in this world. Let me add a little extra. As LDS we believe that Satan is the God of a fallen world he was allowed in the garden of Eden and he is currently walking to and frow in the world. When good people start to follow Christ they become a light to the world, light represents truth. Satan wants to keep the world in darkness by deceiving people through lies. So take the apostle Paul for instance he was doing so much good that he attracted the attention of the devil. Who was determined to stamp out that light otherwise it will become difficult for him to continue to deceive people. Every prophet and active follower of Christ will experience this. Its one of the reasons you can tell Joseph Smith was a prophet because of the constant persecution he got from the time he spoke with his Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, until the time they murdered him as they did Christ and other prophets, Hauns Mill massacre comes to mind. Plus it shows our sincerity in being obedient to the covenants we made. Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego would rather die in the fiery furnace than bow down to the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar made and break the covenant they made with God of having no other Gods before Me. Becoming a true disciple of Christ will offend the god of this world and he will come for you! If you have not experienced this its because your not preaching truth therefore the devil will leave you alone as you are unknowingly doing his work. The church that can gain man salvation is the one Satans wants to extinguish. Few other things, Christ is our brother;
John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God
We have the same Father, that makes us Brother's.
We are destined to become Gods,
John 10:33-34
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
We come here to experience evil if we like it fine if not then we need to repent change our actions and follow Christ example. Christ although perfect experienced every evil and suffering of all kinds decending below all. Now He is a God because he knows all things both good to the highest level and evil and pain of all kinds to the lowest level. We know that God was also a man on an earth if He wasn't then how dose He know what we are going through and even if it is possible for us to do it. Because He's gone through it Himself and knows whats achievable. We also understand that Adam would of never appreciated his presence with the father until he was separated. Can't appreciate health without sicknes can't appreciate pleasure without experiencing pain . We will never know if wickedness works until we try it thats where Christ comes in allowing us to see for ourselves and if we decide its not for us we can repent accept his atonement and cleve to righteousness and once again stand in the presence of God knowing that wickedness brings misery and suffering and therfore no longer having anything to do with it.
In a nutshell God takes us as intelligences gives us bodies places us in a world where good and evil exist and then sees whether we will do all that He commands or not!