Do We EVER Grind Valve Seats These Days?
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- Опубліковано 22 кві 2023
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Today we're working on a set of Blueprint Engines Aluminum SBC heads that a customer brought into our shop for any necessary machining & rebuild with new components.
We had very little history on the heads, but we made do.
In 2023, you might not think that valve grinding stones have their place; but this is a perfect example of where the stones still make sense even when you have a Serdi 4.5 sitting right around the corner!
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So, I have Surfshark VPN, but when I signed up for the service about a year ago, I did so using another sponsored channel's link. That said, it is a good VPN service & the associated app is very intuitive and easy to use. It does what it is supposed to do and isn't "buggy" or glitchy.
As a retired machinist I appreciate the quali8ty and integrity of your shop. thanks guys. Keep on smiling.
its great work,, likely not needed that much these days ,,, never heard of anyone needing this done,, more ev means its dying like a dinosaur
@@MAGApepeEVs are still a niche product and it's not sure if this will ever change
@@Frank_inSA tesla out sell about a dozen other makers,,, dont think thats a niche ,, model y is the 4th best selling in the world in 2022
@@MAGApepe in relation to ALL fossil fuel cars ALL EVs are a niche
@@MAGApepe wrong
I have one customer that insists on all of his valve seats being done with a stone. Was the first question he asked when he called me “ Do you use stones or cutters on valve seats?”. I told him I have both, said he only wanted ground not cut. Didn’t care about cost just equipment, told him my price, said don’t matter as long as I grind his stuff. Three sets of heads every 2 months for about 5 years.
How does the end result/finish differ between the two? Also is the customer decent? Couldn't quite tell lol
As long as you keep your stones dressed up, nice finish. I have cheated on hard exhaust seats to save stones, but finished them with the stone. But if you use a dull cutter, you’ll have poor results. I think that’s what brought him to me to begin with. He wasn’t happy where he was going before. I have not had a problem with my customers because I’m honest with them, I treat them good, they treat me good. You can never make everyone happy, that’s why there is more than one business in any given trade.
I only use the stones for my finish seats as long as your stone holder and pilot are in good shape with minimal play nothing beats that finish.
@@samdavis5079 what are the most important steps to get a good high precision valve seat? Is minimal runout the best indicator of a good job or are there other measurements that can indicate the level of accuracy/ quality job?
That's good business complying to your customer's request. 99% of my clientele has been elsewhere and not received what they wanted in way or another. It's a hard market to keep satisfied, but rewarding when they're happy and return. Don't forget that kind of customer satisfaction isn't cheap. No offense to the customer, but A LOT of time goes into doing the job right and satisfying the customer.
It's not a cookie cutter business.
Very professional, on par with any classroom presentation or training video I have seen in the last 48 years.
I love seeing this. Many years ago I worked in a Detroit diesel shop. I was the guy that rebuilt the Detroit heads among other components. We used a stone setup to grind seats. I remember doing a set of heads for a 12v-71T. 4 valves per cylinder, 48 valves. It was very satisfying to see that beast come to life again.
Your shop brings back memories of my buddies shop. He was a mom and pop shop as well. Quality work and attention to detail. Machined and welded a bit of everything. Farm equipment to full blown race engines, Motorcycle and car. I learned a lot helping him. So glad to see you are in the family business with your dad. Looking forward to all your future content. I am battling cancer ATM. Vids like yours are ones I really look forward too. And FWIW the cleaning guy does a pretty good job too. 😆 Be blessed!
The "valve seat runout gauge" is a new tool to me and what a cool one. You have so many neat specialty measuring devices for your work.
Same ! I was amazed at the look of that gauge !
I'm glad you guys shed some light on this topic. I was watching a video Eric Weingartner posted a few days ago on this same subject. Though the seat width can be harder to control, and stones can leave a less than perfect finish, they still have their benefits in certain situations. Maintaining seat height is a great example on seats in great condition like this. Thanks for the content as always. I love learning things watching your videos. As a machinist of 20 years, I'm still learning new things daily. Keep up the good work guys!
I think, if what I was told by the old man is me remembering what he said right (been a couple decades!), surface finish on stone ground seats is all in the dressing of the stone and correct stone selection for the material?? I'm by no means an expert in any way it's just some really old guys I've asked about it over the years swear by both methods (fly cutting AND stones). It's kind of a dying art form from what I've been able to gather
The #1 reason why cutting seats is better is.... that you don't want to be grinding all day long every day. If a poor soul is forced to do that, one might dream to invent a machine to do it cleaner and faster and easier, and so we have. There is no reason grinding would be inferior end result VS cutting seats, if you have the skill and the right equipment, but it's just not economical, slower, and far more hassle, and makes more of a mess...... so overall not going to be the economical way to go for all jobs. But still great for touch up or ODD jobs.
How funny I just was watching that video prior to this!! I think he used the word BOSS in that video lol when describing the oG’s like your dad who would use the stone 😄 keep up the good work love the quality wish I could have you work on some of my future projects !!
Neat to see this process! I dropped a set of heads off with my machinist a few months ago and he said the seats were in good shape so just touched up the 45 angle with a dressed stone. Now I know exactly what that means.
With the true automotive machine shop becoming a "lost art", it's encouraging to see a vid like this. I'm age 60, ex-racer & still build myself street/strip engines. So i know that any engine builder is at the mercy of their machine shop, to have the best finished product. Today (here in Alabama) i cringe whenever i first try a different machine shop. Competent ones are becoming nonexistent.
Nice too see the stones in use. I was thought in automotive tech school to have the exhaust seat in the center of of the valve. Intake wasn’t as critical. I was in 80-81. Long before the vale seat cutters.
I’m not a machinist or a hot rod guy, but still love watching and listening to anything requiring a lot of attention to detail and these guys are great!
I do all my heads with stones. mainly because its what I have and I can get good results. I am usually .001" or less run out but it can take some time to get there and for sure a very good well dressed stone and holder. The least bit of play in the stone holder really shows up in the finished product.
I have used a Hall Toledo seat grinder for over 50 years. Since I work on mostly on imported car and race engines, I need the ability to apply uncommon seat profiles. The grinding stones can be dressed to any angle and diameter. Using the correct grit with frequent dressing eliminates grinding marks and the orbital action of the grinding stone eliminates chatter. Attachments and pilots are still relatively inexpensive.
Last time I did this type of head work, was 1992. Truly a "lost art"... Awesome video... Thanks 🙏
Great video, Good to see that you guys use a seat runout gauge. I know ALOT of shops that are AFRAID of it. Thanks for sharing.
Have always used a Hall-Toldeo machine to do our valve seats, and have nothing but perfect results each time. Our guy who bores our blocks/grinds cranks has a Serdi machine and it has a very tough time cutting our inserts and if installs his inserts into a head the Hall seat grinders stones have a tough time on his inserts.
Love the content! As a machinist for a shipyard I’m amazed at what y’all do i just make 30’ long 6” diameter stainless steel prop shafts mostly. In my spare time i work on hot rods with my dad so I know my way around many small block and big block v8s. But Im amazed at what y’all do i feel like I’d be lost
What's the tolerance on those prop shafts? I feel like with 30 feet it could be a bear not getting any taper/runout
@@OWSNubbles we order 6” diameter stainless round stock and cut the tapers, threads, and key ways pretty easy. We do a lot other work but i feel like the bigger the material the easier it is to machine. I hate machining anything smaller than 1 inch when it comes to turning it can be very aggravating
Thanks for all the hard work. Hope your Dad's tractor is working great. I Miss seeing the kid with all his cleaning skills.
The attention to detail is so refreshing to see! Keep the content coming!
Great content guys. I'm an old speed freak that abused and broke a lot of big block engines when I was young ('69 Plymouth GTX). Too old to go that fast anymore. Now, I focus on babying my '06 Honda Civic to 300k miles. It was a bonus to find out you're in Greeley. I worked on a frac water recycling project in Gilcrest for a hard couple of years, where livestock outnumber people 100 to 1 and the air smells like money (not!). My crew and I lived at the Quality Inn off 34 which I think is a Fairfield Inn now. It was a great experience but I'll never work in the gas/oil patch again. Just wanted to stop by and say how much I like the content you're producing. I've spent a ton on engine machine work over the years but only dropped off abused parts/picked up the fine work of my local machine shop here in Michigan. Keep it up. This video on old school valve grinding and lapping brought back memories! Cheers!
i used to like cutting seats a bit thinner than what that valve profile indicated but i haven't worked in a machine shop since the 80s.
I have a 1940 Indian Sport Scout motorcycle and it was tough finding a shop to grind the seats. Once I did, my valve leaks went away. Good to see you doing this.
I learnt to tap a valve guide and screw in a bolt to knock out the valve guide about 30 years ago, loved watching you do the same. For the first 10 years knocked them out with a punch and whilst it generally worked ok on the inlet guides, worn or deformed exhaust guides used to be a real pain, hated doing them. After learning to tap and screw them it just became a breeze. I did hit a VW Bettle head a bit hard and snapped it in 2. My boss was watching and was as surprised and I was. We too occasionally used stones only rather than just the RVR machine (an Australian machine long replaced by a Serdi)
I have done heads since the late 70s and have only used Sioux stone kits and valve facers. Always used a 30 and 60 to center and size contact area. I know it's old school but never had a head failure.
I can appreciate this video. It's been more than 2 decades since I've used let alone seen valve grinding stones.
Back when I used to build engines that's all we had. Serti cutting just started as I got out of engine building.
Great video 👍
Beautiful work! It's nice to be able to see a shop presenting the true quality of the work they put out while still taking into account the customers checkbook. Well done!
Watching you grind those seats takes me back 45 years!
Seat grinders can also be portable. Back in the day, I did several 'in the field' seat touchups on flat head engines.
Between that and having the flexibility to move seat position and width around on the valve, stones have their place.
I been using Sunnen single point cutting system for 30 years..and I always finish with a grind ! Agreed its the best valve job !
I really like your channel. I do nothing like what you guys do. But enjoy learning about machining as it relates to engine builds etc. Thanks for keeping it serious and about the work , technology, and skill. Many content creators start this way, then mistakenly think we are watching because of THEM…when we actually watch because of what they do. Stay with your current approach. it will always work!
Grinding stones! Did plenty of valve work with stones back in tech school and while working in a machine shop in high school. Nice to see that there is a place for the old school methods still.
I really like the format of this surfshark commercial. I didn't mind at all that I was hearing the commercial as background to watching the valve guides being honed. As long as the commercial doesn't get in the way of why I came to this channel, I happily listened to it all. When it blocks the content, I skip and guess where the content will pick back up. Keep doing it this way and tell others.
Appreciate it! Glad they are on board with this type of integration. Some brands unfortunately have different requirements and don’t allow me to do the integration like this.
@@JAMSIONLINE They are missing an audience. I am sure everyone does the same. Let them know my comment.
My dad and I have an old Blue Point seat grinder that has saved us some money over the years. Lots of small engines and most recently my Allis D17 head. Great to see they still have use in a money shop.
Love watching someone take so much time and care to do a great job. 👍 Old fashioned skills and care will always make a difference.
Well done. I appreciate your showing when parts don't meet your standards. Keep up the great quality.
Big thumbs up! I had asked this very question in a previous video comment a few weeks ago, your thoughts on stone grinding valve seats; lo and behold I get an entire video for an answer. How freakin cool was that!? Thanks guys, really! 👍👍
We used a Kwikway seat grinder . Also had a Peg 10 seat grinder . Manual Kwikway hand cutter too . Used a Mira seat cutter also. Kwikway valve facer too. We had a black and decker valve facer too .
I have use the stone system for over twenty years and used to get seat specs fro trick flow when we were experimenting with the R ford heads. It takes more time this way but when you do it a lot you get efficient at it.
So nice to see high quality automotive machining. So few are left. It’s a swap it out era.
I used synchro seat stone cutters for many years and found them very accurate so long as your valve guides are ok and the seats are good.
I used to take new SBC heads out the box and do exactly what you are doing. the machining process with new stuff has come a long way
Great content! Brings back memories from when I got to go to work with my dad at a parts store.
Yep I.D. spring locators that are more snug to the guide should take the walk out of those springs. Great stuff can't wait to watch more from you guys.
Currently @ 5:40 and I have to applaud you on your diagnosis, description, and operation. Very sound work!
Yep I used my valve machine this morning and grinded sears also after I installed new bronz guides
I have a antique Sioux seat grinder set I’ve been meaning to screw around with, thanks for the video
I appreciate the quality of the work you guys do.
I grind all seats, new or old. On a a name head with seats cut with a serdi you still see some chatter in the seat when the stone just touches off. Vacuum check is always better after the stone. I do use a wet bench for Stone grinding.
Wow, shows how much people love and appreciate your videos, with your audience. over 4,000 likes, and 0 dislikes. Quality content!!
I enjoy watching your videos, I've always been a gearhead and have torn engines apart, but take them to someone to have machine work done, and doing any head work and then I'd assemble. It is cool to see how you do the machine work of what I would have done.
Great job as usual with Jim's Automotive Machine shop you certainly go the extra mile for every one of your customers guys! I love watching your vids! Keep 'em coming !
Man I went to school and learnt to do some machining. I’ve never got to use it after school. Man y’all are magicians!
Glad I found your channel. Been watching a lot of the videos. You have a good narration and flow.
I am watching your videos one after another and love each one!!!
Excellent details, and I enjoy the father and son aspect.
Isn’t it likely that the rocket pedestal heights are not consistent from one head to the other? That would account for the valve guide wear on one head and not the other? Your thoughts?
As a hobby machinist I do my own valve job and port work. I use a black and decker seat grinder and it has yet to do me wrong. We run a vintage dirt track modified and are limited to factory cast iron heads, some of the machine shops in my area have quoted me 1200 to 1800 in labor just to replace guides and do a 3 angle valve job. Whether or not if I supplied parts(guides,valves,etc). And after the last time I paid someone else to replace my valve guides I got the shaft they charged me for the big bronze replacement guides $18 a piece and they installed the this liners.
Really great content as a machinist myself I appreciate it.
In the mid 1980s I rebuilt a 200 cu in from a 1965 Mustang with my Dad's help. We replaced all of the valves (two were burnt pretty bad). He made me hand lap the valves. no tools. Just the suction cup dowel rods and lapping grease. Took me several days but those valves were perfectly seated when I was done!
We grind all our valve seats, good video! Curious about the green replacement for Prussian blue, looks far less messy.
Thanks!
Excellent videos. I like the Allis Chalmers! Anyway, I was wondering about the valve seats you place towards the top or outer edge of the valve. How does this compare with centering them on their angle? I was taught that the valves were more likely to cup if they were too far out. Thank you for your time.
I’m disorganized so your attention to detail is amazing and appreciated. I have a set of Toyota 3UR-FE heads w/DOHCs. The SBC heads seem to be much less complicated. How is that tractor coming along?
Great job ! Love the chambers on those …
this work looks so satisfying
Interesting process and information . Thanks for sharing !
always nice to see the old skills carrying on :) I haven't done a head in a while, but I use to love lapping the valves in to get the better seal :)
The quality of your work both of you is Second to NON have seen a few in my time but i can not flout any thing you guys do top quality every time and thanks for your explanations of the how to and why to of the jobs lets us understand each step in the process keep up the exultant work standards and the videos as i can't weight for the next one to come out thanks Cheers
I have an old WaterTown eccentric seat grinder. Don't use it often but just blows my mind when I do.
Wow! Beautiful work.
Personally this is how i prefer to see/hear the sponsor ads. Where i can still watch you do the work while the ad plays beside the content
Really love the videos you guys make, really amazing the knowledge and detail involved in the work done at the shop. Gotta thabk youtube algorithm and the shorts for finding you guys. God bless.
Nice! Hopefully we can get a follow up on this video!
You guys are awesome! Love the details in these videos. Bless y’all and I can’t wait to see more! Thank you for all you and the team do!
Great video. Really enjoy your informative explanations.
I use stones for all my performance heads. The time it takes is still small compared to a whole engine build so I’ve never seen the need to invest in a seat cutter. I build just a few engines a year for my own projects mainly.
The nicest seats I have ever done are ground by a Hall Toledo single point grinder. The Kwik Way grinder is good, but not as good as the Hall Toledo.
Thanks for the video.
Great job as always...thank you for the knowledge.
Great workmanship is fun to watch
I was a quick shot but it looked like and old Sioux. Saw your grinder was air our was old electric. It was really old in the 60’s and was still worked into late 90’s when our store burned.
So glad I found this channel !
old school is the best school! nice work!
This is an excellent video, especially with everything going on in a motor. Plenty of really good shots with the close-up. Could you maybe tell us a little more about in-correct rockers, and the
best working angles: I have Chev. 350, Comp-cams hyd-roller cam and roller/needle rockers. And of course, what to do if you've got problems up there.
when I was in the machine shop we had both but I always liked the stones keep them dressed and make sure nothing is wobbly and you can't beat that finish
just don't fall asleep on the trigger !
I just wanted to drop a note and say that I enjoy your content greatly.
Another awesome video, can you do a video explaining the valve grinding vs machining, angles, etc? Would be really cool to learn how it all works
Nice work !
Jim, using a bounce spring on the guide as you are kissing the seat helps reduce runout . Second using some fine valve grinding compound on your final seat pattern check helps polish / lap everything together . It’s good to show this process as it’s a good foundation for future cylinder head techs no matter the advancements in technology. Def agree with having seen some terrible machine work from big mfg’s over the years. Even modern stuff. Love the channel !
Nice clean work , I got a question, is it necessary to grind the seat if I got a burnt valve?
Recently found your channel and enjoy the videos. The information is great for both experienced people and inexperienced. I really enjoyed the tractor series and since it hasn't come back, I guess it's safe to assume that it is now working properly and not eating itself alive.
On another note, I am curious about ring end gap and how you decide what is acceptable if you don't have manufacturer specs. Is there a standard rule of thumb? I know that was a question you had with the tractor and am curious how you would determine an issue if you didn't have the specs.
thanks and I'm waiting for more videos. you need to give the cleaning guy a raise I think.
I have Neway cutters and grinding stones. I honestly like the stones better because I’m usually just touching up the seats and it is faster in my opinion.
Having never ground valves in my life nor ran or been around a valve grinding machine I remember drawing angles on the paper to figure out the valve grind questions on the ASE tests back in the day. Yep. Passed them.
Is that a Sioux brand valve seat grinder? That’s what I used when I had my machine shop years ago. I like the fact that the pilots were straight until the very end which had a slight locking taper.
Excellent work!
I enjoy your clips and info videos very much. Leslie
Nice quality work... I still use my old souix and grind all my own valves and seats the old way...😉
impressive videos and skillz!!
Thanks for your videos. Learn something new all the time. ❤
Very professional work young man master machinist
Enjoying the content!
Thank you not stopping the video we want to see, while doing the promotion for the sponsors