I know John doesn't want to be a guru but some of us look at him as a guru. Some of us don't have the leadership, parents, friends that have this wisdom. Where do I get my wisdom. Not by my will. My soul is coming here to get something bigger than myself. And another way of saying this is you can't have a Sangha without a guru leading, integrally.🙏❤️
Custodian's of the idea, of thinking. Thank you both Chris, and John for sharing your time and work its always fun, even years later the fascination with each other's thinking is fresh, peace
I would really love an introductory series to Christopher's worldview. Think it would offer insight and likely interact dialogically with John's other major series.
There is a series within the After Socrates series where Chris am discuss Kierkegaard and Socrates that is a very good introduction to Chris’ worldview.
I finally think I know how to say what I find so fascinating about your work. It's like it wraps around itself. By talking about meaning; by explicating the structure of meaning (coherence), by sharing it with others (mattering), by enjoying the process of understanding meaning (flow), by making the purpose the furthering of the understanding itself (purpose); you're doing the very thing you're talking about, as you're talking about it, as you're doing it, and arguably to the greatest degree (because it feeds on itself; it's a positive feedback loop). It wraps around itself. It's absolutely fascinating.
This was profound. You two are theatrically explosive when dancing in dialogue together. Its art. Anyways the meat of the convo is great... as many are now trying to participate in these new communities (hybrids of embodied and digital) and This Little Corner can take so much from this convo that was meant for the Vervaeke Foundation as pertaining to our own meta-community that I think would properly include Verv. Found. 🙏
"When, in disgrace with fortune and men’s eyes, I all alone beweep my outcast state, And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries, And look upon myself and curse my fate, Wishing me like to one more rich in hope, Featured like him, like him with friends possessed, Desiring this man’s art and that man’s scope, With what I most enjoy contented least; Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising, Haply I think on thee, and then my state," Shakespeare Sonnet 29
Dr.Vervaeke's way is trust and virtuous wisdom, and although there would be complicated experiences, his mind can heal it with academic perspectives so others can't do specially. His fellows are also great.
Really excellent discussion and important emphasizing of maintaining integration. I know you do it internally, but it also feels important to share transparently like this
It's such a long way back down into the cave, however far out one has attained to, and how much farther knowing that one's journey out is not ended.... Not to mention scary to go back, that one seems unutterably outnumbered, that resentment or disdain might lurk within one, out of fear, and the need to be received back for the picture to hold.... etc. Watching and listening now, and will need to a second time, as you articulate some of the branches and twists. Thanks both for the feast for thought and feeling out, here and heretofore...!
I don't know if this will ever be seen: as I lie here not sleeping, it strikes me, are we Platonists when we know there is no getting out of the cave/ or Socratics...? Please reply.
I really appreciate that they addressed the fact that they can neither offer community nor therapy. Does raise the question, why do they need money. Research?
I really appreciate this candid conversation you've shared. This foundation sounds like the right kind of endeavor with the right kind of intention and care going into what matters about it. I'm excited to see what the team comes up with, and hopefully I can participate at some stage. Keen to hear more about the Silk Road project, too.
Thank you both for your transparency on this journey. This is an excellent and exciting quest Have you explored a complex facilitation framework? A blend of Dave Snowden's work and indigenous wisdom have had useful insights for me.🙏
Hey John, I sent you an email about a book I'm writing about virtue as a means of helping in the meaning crisis. Would love to touch base as I think there is a lot to talk about. The book is called Letters of Virtue, as virtues by themself have limited meaning, but the combination of virtues are like words, they contain greater meaning, and each day, like sentence, we express these virtues in a series of moments. I've catalogued virtue from across all the religions and many philsophical traditions. Love that this video popped up.
I appreciate this content and fascinated by the dialectic into dialogos practice. I wish I could get a better sense of the experience, even if it was facilitated via digital means. 1200 USD is incredibly expensive for a Non-US resident and probably biggest challenge to scale this. Would socrates ask $1200? Something to think about.
If you guys aren't trying to be gurus you guys are definitely trying to have people grow up. Science mixing with spirituality looks like how to grow up/ maturity/ integrity. If we're learning how to grow up, you're right we don't need a guru, but we need the guru in us that is us.🙏❤️
I really find myself enthralled by zen and taoism, but i struggle to participate in them. I want so badly to have a cultural connection to a tradition of worshipping logos, tao, and virtue but i have come from christianity and its far too dangerous of a belief system for me. Ive tried exploring the more liberal christian traditions like presbyterianism in the usa, but even then theyre still really dogmatically bound in ways that i find more repelling than anything else. I am far from having the hubris to believe i can structure my own narrative for worshipping virtue, but i cant seem to surrender myself to anything ive been presented with. This is the place I feel like I need to be. I'll be looking into the dojo further. If you have any thoughts on this, please share them in the thread, this seems to be a good corner of the internet for people in my situation
From the outside looking in, never surrender yourself, we always have to maintain our objective reality and our place in it, just to have a place to put our feet firmly on the ground, from which to observe the world that surrounds us, peace
@@williamjmccartan8879 this is what the Buddhists would say, that the desire to surrender is itself the problem. I've been conditioned since childhood to rely on faith placed in a narrative rather than myself. It's certainly the easiest of solutions, but I find it harder everyday to stand alone against my culture. It was easier when I was fueled by my anger and my resentment towards the mental manipulations of my upbringing, but now that I am in a place where I can forgive myself of my humanity, I very much feel the pull of virtue and all that's meaningful, and as I put effort into further disciplining myself i can only feel that this journey would be enhanced by fellowship and community. It then becomes hard to distinguish what is virtuous in the empowerment of fellowship from the shadows of mythic narrative. This is the goal of Vervaeke's work, I'm excited to watch these new communities arise in places far from my own. Perhaps natural selection will force me to fill the vacancy in this niche and to lay the foundations of a new community, what that looks like idk. I've been playing with the idea of fantasy and virtue studies, fiction is often revealing itself to me as the best way to explore many of these ideas free from the self incentivised cages of dogmatic narratives.
Infinite and finite, selfish and not selfish🙂 you higher educated everything about status... This is a personality problem amongst the higher educated... All part of my narcisist psychopath and empathy theory...
@swerremdjee2769 can you elaborate a bit on how some have status idolized and perhaps others have it more properly placed? I recognize I assumed a bit there..
@@matthewparlato5626 most of us think we are oke or good, but are we? Personal image and personal image in the group, the catperson is the self, and the dogperson is the self in a group. Some people can get their social status from their own actions others from their place in the social hierarchy. Some have made it an art to navigate the social hierarchy ladder using speech. (If i tell others this about me they will think this is true, or if i act this way people will see me as this way, no matter if its true or not). I think since we are told that if we get a high education we will have a better life and the right to more money and previleges, some actually started to believe this, that they are better, they deserve more than others just because they went to school a little longer and everyone else didn't. They have put more time in than most, sacrificed more of their youth, learned more than most and the teachers told them they know more than most and are smarter than most. Im bringing age and personality to this perception, at what age does a personality form? If the first 20/25 years of your life is only to listen, learn and adapt, what will your personality be like and when is it set? To me its all about values, personal values, shared values and group values. The more selfish types act out of self interest, no matter what they say. They will tell you what ever they think will work so they can have it their way. So what i have been wondering is, how much of this behaviour is taught/adapted and how much is personal? Because this thinking that they are and know better is way higher on the higher educated side. The catperson is more introvert and lives more in/for the now and acts more out of their emotions. The dogperson is more extrovert, lives more for tomorrow/long term and acts more out of the rational/ what is accepted.
I think you will find the most success if you disseminate this wisdom and knowledge to homeless shelters and encampments. A bottom up approach might have a better impact than the top down academic method. It might have a greater impact on your development of the new culture that both of you have been attempting to inspire.
You're definitely not the only one who has thought, nor expressed this idea, and continues to appear to me as the one area that has been the most difficult to manifest because of its direct connection with the meaning crisis and the shadows from which we fear to engage, for which, I suspect, we are all guilty of.
Virtue almost answers the war with Russia in an instant - how can we push humanity into such a ridiculous, dangerous chance of nuclear war, when prudence and virtue call so loudly for restraint and acceptance that compassion MUST lead us in our relations with others.
Interesting. However, you still need a strategy to deal with exclusivity as an aspect of "wisdom" traditions. Your project seems to want to ignore this, but it is the canary in the coal mine.
Just a thought but I think they did deal with this by not treating groups of malleable people to a rigid framework like the church that despite being very successful does end up exclusive perhaps in terms of losing language openness. The main design element as the open template circle and the minor elements of affordability,, access, accountability as strategy, thru trade, family and sacred language, with decorative care.elements not restrictive in their roles but precise in their placing. edit: designed in that order but built from the other direction, starting with decorative care elements inspiring a springboard for leaping and some tricky design challenges in the minor arena that pull in the major element. Affordability? pay forward community. Access closing down against your will? Again, the wrestler's flip. Accountability rides just behind love, some sort of virtue strength with intent and focus aligned.
I know John doesn't want to be a guru but some of us look at him as a guru. Some of us don't have the leadership, parents, friends that have this wisdom. Where do I get my wisdom. Not by my will. My soul is coming here to get something bigger than myself. And another way of saying this is you can't have a Sangha without a guru leading, integrally.🙏❤️
Custodian's of the idea, of thinking. Thank you both Chris, and John for sharing your time and work its always fun, even years later the fascination with each other's thinking is fresh, peace
The heavens speak through your very Souls
I would really love an introductory series to Christopher's worldview. Think it would offer insight and likely interact dialogically with John's other major series.
There is a series within the After Socrates series where Chris am discuss Kierkegaard and Socrates that is a very good introduction to Chris’ worldview.
This duo is magic ❤
I finally think I know how to say what I find so fascinating about your work. It's like it wraps around itself. By talking about meaning; by explicating the structure of meaning (coherence), by sharing it with others (mattering), by enjoying the process of understanding meaning (flow), by making the purpose the furthering of the understanding itself (purpose); you're doing the very thing you're talking about, as you're talking about it, as you're doing it, and arguably to the greatest degree (because it feeds on itself; it's a positive feedback loop). It wraps around itself. It's absolutely fascinating.
I just realized my comment unintentionally wrapped around itself as well (but in a different way). It's became a bit of a palindrome 😂
This was profound. You two are theatrically explosive when dancing in dialogue together. Its art.
Anyways the meat of the convo is great...
as many are now trying to participate in these new communities (hybrids of embodied and digital) and This Little Corner can take so much from this convo that was meant for the Vervaeke Foundation as pertaining to our own meta-community that I think would properly include Verv. Found. 🙏
"When, in disgrace with fortune and men’s eyes,
I all alone beweep my outcast state,
And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries,
And look upon myself and curse my fate,
Wishing me like to one more rich in hope,
Featured like him, like him with friends possessed,
Desiring this man’s art and that man’s scope,
With what I most enjoy contented least;
Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
Haply I think on thee, and then my state," Shakespeare Sonnet 29
Dr.Vervaeke's way is trust and virtuous wisdom, and although there would be complicated experiences, his mind can heal it with academic perspectives so others can't do specially. His fellows are also great.
Really excellent discussion and important emphasizing of maintaining integration. I know you do it internally, but it also feels important to share transparently like this
The prince of Dialogos is back! 🙏🏼
It's such a long way back down into the cave, however far out one has attained to, and how much farther knowing that one's journey out is not ended....
Not to mention scary to go back, that one seems unutterably outnumbered, that resentment or disdain might lurk within one, out of fear, and the need to be received back for the picture to hold.... etc.
Watching and listening now, and will need to a second time, as you articulate some of the branches and twists.
Thanks both for the feast for thought and feeling out, here and heretofore...!
I don't know if this will ever be seen: as I lie here not sleeping, it strikes me, are we Platonists when we know there is no getting out of the cave/ or Socratics...? Please reply.
Chris is the best. Excited to see what the new year has in store for you guys!
I really appreciate that they addressed the fact that they can neither offer community nor therapy. Does raise the question, why do they need money. Research?
I heard the Dojo part later. But who wants to do a virtual dojo?
Even a virtual world has to keep the lights on, peace
Really unique disclaimer.
Just what I needed, thank you John.
Happy to see you two given'er.
Welcome to the game boys! See you on the field. Blessings
I appreciate you sharing this. I hope that it is heard well by everyone. Thank you all 🙏
Love your work John, look forward to the continued content and plans
Also, double click on the base camp!!
Are there any upcoming conferences planned that you are participating in John?
Any idea on when the anthology on the Socratic dialogic practice will be coming out?
I really appreciate this candid conversation you've shared. This foundation sounds like the right kind of endeavor with the right kind of intention and care going into what matters about it. I'm excited to see what the team comes up with, and hopefully I can participate at some stage. Keen to hear more about the Silk Road project, too.
Thank you both for your transparency on this journey. This is an excellent and exciting quest Have you explored a complex facilitation framework? A blend of Dave Snowden's work and indigenous wisdom have had useful insights for me.🙏
was waiting for this dialogos for a long time ❤
Hey John, I sent you an email about a book I'm writing about virtue as a means of helping in the meaning crisis. Would love to touch base as I think there is a lot to talk about.
The book is called Letters of Virtue, as virtues by themself have limited meaning, but the combination of virtues are like words, they contain greater meaning, and each day, like sentence, we express these virtues in a series of moments.
I've catalogued virtue from across all the religions and many philsophical traditions.
Love that this video popped up.
This is excellent....but can it scale, adequately, within potential time constraints? 🤔
I appreciate this content and fascinated by the dialectic into dialogos practice. I wish I could get a better sense of the experience, even if it was facilitated via digital means. 1200 USD is incredibly expensive for a Non-US resident and probably biggest challenge to scale this. Would socrates ask $1200? Something to think about.
35:14 that does feel much lighter and right. The foundation at bottom is a dojo and at most a Basecamp at top
If you guys aren't trying to be gurus you guys are definitely trying to have people grow up. Science mixing with spirituality looks like how to grow up/ maturity/ integrity. If we're learning how to grow up, you're right we don't need a guru, but we need the guru in us that is us.🙏❤️
I really find myself enthralled by zen and taoism, but i struggle to participate in them. I want so badly to have a cultural connection to a tradition of worshipping logos, tao, and virtue but i have come from christianity and its far too dangerous of a belief system for me. Ive tried exploring the more liberal christian traditions like presbyterianism in the usa, but even then theyre still really dogmatically bound in ways that i find more repelling than anything else. I am far from having the hubris to believe i can structure my own narrative for worshipping virtue, but i cant seem to surrender myself to anything ive been presented with. This is the place I feel like I need to be. I'll be looking into the dojo further. If you have any thoughts on this, please share them in the thread, this seems to be a good corner of the internet for people in my situation
From the outside looking in, never surrender yourself, we always have to maintain our objective reality and our place in it, just to have a place to put our feet firmly on the ground, from which to observe the world that surrounds us, peace
@@williamjmccartan8879 this is what the Buddhists would say, that the desire to surrender is itself the problem. I've been conditioned since childhood to rely on faith placed in a narrative rather than myself. It's certainly the easiest of solutions, but I find it harder everyday to stand alone against my culture. It was easier when I was fueled by my anger and my resentment towards the mental manipulations of my upbringing, but now that I am in a place where I can forgive myself of my humanity, I very much feel the pull of virtue and all that's meaningful, and as I put effort into further disciplining myself i can only feel that this journey would be enhanced by fellowship and community. It then becomes hard to distinguish what is virtuous in the empowerment of fellowship from the shadows of mythic narrative. This is the goal of Vervaeke's work, I'm excited to watch these new communities arise in places far from my own. Perhaps natural selection will force me to fill the vacancy in this niche and to lay the foundations of a new community, what that looks like idk. I've been playing with the idea of fantasy and virtue studies, fiction is often revealing itself to me as the best way to explore many of these ideas free from the self incentivised cages of dogmatic narratives.
I wish Jon Vervaeke was my dad🤠
My dad is also victimized. Its origin was prohibited.
Dr.Vervaeke is great man who can heal people with academic perspectives as great dads can.
🌞
John don’t miss, when up to bat at the meaning crisis!
Infinite and finite, selfish and not selfish🙂 you higher educated everything about status...
This is a personality problem amongst the higher educated...
All part of my narcisist psychopath and empathy theory...
First work on your English theory
@@daveeeeeee4101 dont need 2 its going briljantly with out it, i only finished high school but outshine most of you, try me🙂👍
@swerremdjee2769 can you elaborate a bit on how some have status idolized and perhaps others have it more properly placed?
I recognize I assumed a bit there..
@@matthewparlato5626 most of us think we are oke or good, but are we?
Personal image and personal image in the group, the catperson is the self, and the dogperson is the self in a group.
Some people can get their social status from their own actions others from their place in the social hierarchy.
Some have made it an art to navigate the social hierarchy ladder using speech.
(If i tell others this about me they will think this is true, or if i act this way people will see me as this way, no matter if its true or not).
I think since we are told that if we get a high education we will have a better life and the right to more money and previleges, some actually started to believe this, that they are better, they deserve more than others just because they went to school a little longer and everyone else didn't.
They have put more time in than most, sacrificed more of their youth, learned more than most and the teachers told them they know more than most and are smarter than most.
Im bringing age and personality to this perception, at what age does a personality form?
If the first 20/25 years of your life is only to listen, learn and adapt, what will your personality be like and when is it set?
To me its all about values, personal values, shared values and group values.
The more selfish types act out of self interest, no matter what they say.
They will tell you what ever they think will work so they can have it their way.
So what i have been wondering is, how much of this behaviour is taught/adapted and how much is personal?
Because this thinking that they are and know better is way higher on the higher educated side.
The catperson is more introvert and lives more in/for the now and acts more out of their emotions.
The dogperson is more extrovert, lives more for tomorrow/long term and acts more out of the rational/ what is accepted.
@@matthewparlato5626 some aquire it with what they are doing and its just a by product while others prioritise it, its their goal, the simple answer👍
Hey! I know these guys…
Would not be here without you my dear and wonderful friend. Much love.
Perhaps AI could help you desgn the architecture of your beautiful dream❤️
I think you will find the most success if you disseminate this wisdom and knowledge to homeless shelters and encampments. A bottom up approach might have a better impact than the top down academic method. It might have a greater impact on your development of the new culture that both of you have been attempting to inspire.
I'm glad someone liked it. Thought this idea would have earned the Vervaeke heart of approval.
You're definitely not the only one who has thought, nor expressed this idea, and continues to appear to me as the one area that has been the most difficult to manifest because of its direct connection with the meaning crisis and the shadows from which we fear to engage, for which, I suspect, we are all guilty of.
Virtue almost answers the war with Russia in an instant - how can we push humanity into such a ridiculous, dangerous chance of nuclear war, when prudence and virtue call so loudly for restraint and acceptance that compassion MUST lead us in our relations with others.
How? Consciousness + culture, that's how.
Sounds like a therapy session for one of them.
Interesting. However, you still need a strategy to deal with exclusivity as an aspect of "wisdom" traditions. Your project seems to want to ignore this, but it is the canary in the coal mine.
Just a thought but I think they did deal with this by not treating groups of malleable people to a rigid framework like the church that despite being very successful does end up exclusive perhaps in terms of losing language openness. The main design element as the open template circle and the minor elements of affordability,, access, accountability as strategy, thru trade, family and sacred language, with decorative care.elements not restrictive in their roles but precise in their placing.
edit: designed in that order but built from the other direction, starting with decorative care elements inspiring a springboard for leaping and some tricky design challenges in the minor arena that pull in the major element. Affordability? pay forward community. Access closing down against your will? Again, the wrestler's flip. Accountability rides just behind love, some sort of virtue strength with intent and focus aligned.
Virtue could be a good translation of kung fu