I'm a little annoyed with this conversation because I think people are looking at it from the wrong angle, as you know, I made a video talking about if fantasy is in an identity crisis and if we're stuck in the Tolkien/Howard/pseudo-medieval model that fantasy seems to be in. There are authors like Mieville, James, and Catling who I think deserve more love and are doing some really interesting things with the fantasy genre, and no one's really paying them mind (with exceptions of course.) Is epic fantasy dead? That's the wrong question. Is fantasy stuck in a rut? Now that should be considered.
I think "epic fantasy", i.e. big books or even several volumes should have remained a comparably rare exception. Like horror and SF, the better vehicle for fantasy are shorter forms, short stories up to novellas/short/normal sized novels (as it mostly was in the Sword & Sorcery or Weird tales beginning until the 1960s). Sure, some exceptions work well and there were a few large books (The worm Ouroboros) early on but epic multi volume series as standard is a "mistake".
Great vid. I definitely think you've hit the nail on the head with the way a lot of booktubers are allergic to the discussion of commercialised fiction and what it means for their favourite genre. I'm hoping this whole artificial problem will be resolved by some of these booktubers reading something less commercial, I would even be very happy with them dipping their toes into fantasy's history. Let's see some Jack Vance, M John Harrison, and Fritz Leiber discussion hit the booktube shelves. Or Katherine Kurtz, Mary Gentle, and Jane Yolen if we want them diversifying a little more. The main reason I started my channel was to try and see some change in regards to what fantasy booktube talks about and how they talk about it. EDIT: I also think these booktubers undervalue how much they can also just set little trends into motion. I don't think booktube is swaying the industry even slightly, but they do influence their own sphere. Just talking about something else, even if it's not widely read, can spur others into reading it, especially if multiple booktubers do buddy reads.
Thank you very much! I certainly won't complain about more Jack Vance discourse or anything tackling older or just less known books. The problem is unfortunately that those videos tend to do incredibly poorly (they certainly do for me when I talk about Leiber or Vance) and if you're an established booktuber actively depending on the little money UA-cam makes, talking about them might just be too big a risk. It would require concerted efforts of a group of booktubers all talking about a book to break through that barrier in both the algorithm and their audience and I am not sure if anyone's willing to do that. The other part is of course that reading older texts requires the ability and willingness to encounter them on their own terms and within their historical context, something that can be pretty hard for people who have only read books published in the last 20 years.
@RafBlutaxt Both valid points. I admit as someone who views any and all creative output as a labour of love and avoids financial gain from it, I sometime push my own biases onto others who operate more willingly in the space of capital (not that I begrudge them for it-it's the system we're in after all). For smaller booktubers especially it feels more prudent to act on what will be fruitful as opposed to what might be more fulfilling. I guess I'm also just of the opinion that when you're smaller that's your chance to take the biggest risks. A small audience might stay small but for you and other smaller booktubers I notice that despite a lower viewcount there are still healthy comment sections and communal aspects. Which to me feel more valuable. But now I'm just sort of rambling, would just like to see some more proactive reading in the community.
@@HabitualBlood Oh, I very much wish the same and I agree that it is easier to take risks as a very small channel. Someone like Petrik or Library of a Viking have grown into the precarious size where the money does begin to actually matter and risks become financial and not just creative so I can see where they're coming from in that regard. I make less than 5$ per month through UA-cam so having 20 instead of 200 views on a video really doesn't matter to me, having active comment sections however does. Unfortunately with the way the UA-cam algorithm pushed popular videos and buries less popular ones there's a real chance that many poeple who would actually love a video on say Jack Vance won't even find it unless they actively search for it so even the community and conversation aspect suffers when the potential popularity of a video is not prioritized. This is obviously baked into the system because the goal of UA-cam is to maximize views and thus profits.
Great job spelling this out Raf. I didn't watch any of those videos because I think the premise put in the titles was ridiculous. Epic fantasy was never actually that popular in the bigger picture. Sure GoT gave it a little blip as did LoTR back in the 60s. Beyond that, epic fantasy has always had one foot in the grave with regards to the corporate numbers game. I still get asked what I read from time to time and when I say Epic Fantasy (which is mostly true, ha), I still get asked, "oh, what's that?" or "Is that like that Game of Thrones thing?" A lot of the general public aren't interested in the esoteric genre manipulating that some of us nerds love to participate in. So, epic fantasy is where it is and where it will most likely always be. Just this strange classification that can't be explained easily. Forget about Grimdark and all the rest. Back in my early reading days, fantasy wasn't even separated from sci-fi yet, ha ha. Anyway, I'm rambling on because you brought up such great points. Thanks!
Thanks! I think the whole subgenre thing is mostly a marketing tool on the one hand and a way to gatekeep and distinguish oneself from the other fantasy readers. In that regard it is very similar to the subgenre game within heavy metal. There's this tendency of nerds to compensate our feelings of inferiority by throwing fellow nerds under the bus through these games of claiming our specific nerd thing is more serious than theirs. A lot of it I suspect is rooted in toxic masculinity and general sexism but all that would be the subject for a video of its own.
We need to seize the means of epic fantasy production! ✊ Booktubers running out of the backlog of popular, long series to talk about is a really great point.
Well, technically self-publishing is just that, seizing the means of production. Unfortunately it does not lend itself to making popular videos because the market is so big and so few people have read any specific book.
Haha! I actually brought up capitalism in the discussion with Tori thinking of you. I think we also did a good job defining what we meant, and I didn’t define it by long books or guys with swords. Janny Wurts was in the chat and also added an excellent definition, which she got from Steven Erikson. Plus, Tori is a self-published epic fantasy author, so much support there! I personally don’t think romantacy or cozy fantasy are necessarily at odds with epic fantasy or have to be. There are many readers who enjoy all types of fantasy though it might not seem like it in certain corners of the internet.
Well, it is hard to talk about the publishing industry and ignore that it functions under capitalism although several booktubers have managed it. Your discussion with Tori was very nuanced both because discussions allow for more nuance and exploration than a 15 minute rant by one person and because with Tori as a self-published author and people like Janny Wurts in chat you had way more insight into the process of publishing than others like me. My main point was that while there may be fewer epic fantasy series published by big publishers at the moment, just winging about it feels pointless and self-indulgent and I'd rather have people talk about what to do with the situation which you two definitely did more than others.
Well argued, as usual, and gave me stuff to think about the hadn't occurred to me. And refreshingly not clickbait, like most (not all) videos I've seen on the subject.
I really enjoyed this video (and your humour is excellent!). I found especially the last part to be helpful and something I will try and keep more in mind going forward. Best wishes!
I guess "epic fantasy is dying" is what people say, who also believe that Abercrombie invented "grim dark". Who have no idea that everything Abercrombie "invented" was already written by Poul Anderson 60 years ago in "Broken Sword". By the way, maybe this isn't the end of the golden age of epic fantasy, but the end of the golden age of their BookTube channels?😮
"Most of us don't know shit about the publishing industry, and that's part of the problem." THANK YOU!! Almost no BTers know anything about publishing or writing craft. Lol. Raf with the truth as always.
The idea of "epic fantasy is dead" reminds me of "metal/rock is dead." Arguably, it's not the truth but many trends shapes the mainstream media and it's not what determines the absence of alternatives. They evolve in other forms of media coverage. We live in the world of consumerism. That being said, we all have to find what we like not what we find to be present at all times. 😊
Don't think it's necessarily dying. In a rut, probably. But most art forms go in cycles, Romantasy is popular right now but that will inevitably become out of fashion as "epic" is currently. completely agree with you that there is so much "epic fantasy" from the past to read that I think a lot of people moaning completely ignore. And most of it is fantastic, and huge, and definitely epic. 🤘
I agree that this is all a bit of a silly convo. The simple fact is, a person cannot live long enough to read all of the good epic fantasy out there. Yes, some older stuff falls into formulaic tropes etc but there is more good content than any one human could read with more coming out every day. THAT BEING SAID, I will be the odd man out in this comment section and push back a bit on your analysis. A signifiant part of the frustration many have (myself included to some small degree) is that the market shift away from more what we knew as epic fantasy to more 'modern styles' of epic fantasy (the loss of privilege as you call it) does not always feel organic or profit driven. Many companies are more than willing to take profit hits for particular social purposes. (which is fine if they want to do that, THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT but that is a choice they are making, not an organic response to capitalist pressure. So that does make it is something we have a right to comment on and debate). I will also say, your final point comparing people who are frustrated at this general shift in style with 'ists' and 'phobes' is just a bad take. This feels like when I look at the latest Star Wars series, and go "wow this is a really bad show" only to be viscously attacked with some horrific names because after all, there is ONLY ONE reason you could ever see the content as bad. The simple but sometimes unwelcome fact is, the demographic FAR AND AWAY most likely to read epic fantasy books is men. So that's why men have historically been written to more, they simply buy way more epic fantasy books than women. Men are still today by far the largest demographic of people reading what we would all agree are epic fantasy books but there is a definite conscious shift by many major companies to shift towards selling books that are more geared towards women (again, thats fine, they can do that, more power to them, but its a choice they are making). Again, I think your conclusion is pretty accurate, but I do have to say, I disagree with the path you took to get there.
I would concede that publishers do not always make fully profit-driven decisions but I doubt it is for "social causes". I think it is mostly because they overvalue certain feedback, in this case booktok when making said decisions. The booktok community skews heavily towards gen z and towards women and after the inarguable financial success of some booktok books the publishers jumped on that trend without reserve. I don't think anyone I linked to is making the claims about the lack of epic fantasy because of deeply held misogynist attitudes or the likes but wanted to point out that the way the argument is so often tied to the rise of romantasy can lead down that road and dovetails with the arguments of people who clearly have said attitudes so we need to be careful to not get instrumentalized by such people. I have not seen any Star Wars shows so won't comment on that subject.
@@RafBlutaxt My point was simply that there are forces outside of simple market reaction that cause companies (in this case publishers) to do dumb things. Which I think we agree on. I just know that I have basically stopped reading new books coming out because clearly very few of the current 'popular' books are aimed towards me as a reader. (a bit hyperbolic but not extremely hyperbolic) Again, I am not mad about that, I am reading Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, I'm fine, but I can definitely see that there is a clear change in direction recently, and it feels counter to what would be logical economically. I will take your word that you were simply warning about 'dovetail' arguments. I mentioned it, because it is very common (especially online) for people to simply disparage large groups of people by just connecting their stance with some form of bigotry. It is a common way to dodge perfectly honest concerns.
I really appreciate the acknowledgement of the fact that a lot of this whining (or the way it's often presented) is very pretentious. It's not "Oh it's a shame that these types of books that i personally like and that fit my personal taste aren't being published anymore", it's more like "Ugh, all that is published today is just romantasy. Why can't they publish real, grown-up, actually good books anymore. All those superficial, brainless, esthetic TikTok girlies are taking over and destroying literature!!!".
Oh yeah, there's a high level of misogyny, internalized in some cases and just plain old misogyny in other cases going around, combine it with blaming gen z and tiktok and you have a ready-made package of complaint that's sure to be appreciated by lots of frustrated older white dudes online. I have watched a few videos discussing the whole "booktok is ruining reading" concept but have not spoken about it myself as I have never seen a booktok clip in my life and thus feel underqualified to talk about it but I think it connects to the death of epic fantasy discourse through these attempts of gatekeeping and distinction.
the other thing is that there is nothing wrong with (relative) conciseness, being limited to a trilogy still means you have plenty of pages to tell a story and make a point, not sure anyone would argue endless fat book series lead to higher quality writing/
I'm not even sure if I believe the argument has legs to stand on in its *most generous* formation. Big Janny Wurts just released, Big Ian C Esslemont just released, Tad Williams is firing on all cylinders, has recently released stuff and has another coming this year. Sanderson's mega huge gargantuan nonsense is coming this year. Etc. There's surely another 20 that easily fit the definition or so with some digging. I think your point about the booktube focus is 100% it, top to bottom, and it's silly bc they of all people should have the wider view.
I think the only part where the argument might work is with new authors not getting deals for huge epic fantasy novels or series. Established authors keep getting published because publishers already know they will sell. The irony is of course that many larger booktubers won't talk about debut epic fantasy novels because these videos usually do worse than those about established authors.
Yes profit is the main goal for these publishers but I believe only 2 of the big five are publicly traded. That said: yes they all want to make money. Publishing fat fantasy books with a lot of paper by debut authors has mostly proven to not be profitable unless they catch lightning in a bottle. That said, there’s plenty of proving grounds out there that authors are still writing in, offered by capitalism (in this instance, fortunately). The ability to self publish is a wonder for future and current authors of all genres. I agree that we shouldn’t whine about it, and just take advantage of the access we have to readers that authors from 30 years ago did not. That said, I don’t know if I took any of these book tubers as “whining” so much as bringing on the conversation. It’s likely their intention was to get the attention of people who work for these publishers to take more swings on debut authors than it was to get people who write phat fantasy to stop writing it. Anyways, love the personality and energy you brought in this mini-rant! Can always appreciate a good cheers.
While I don't read fantasy now and than I give it a try. So far other than the dark tower and conan I haven't read much that grabs me. That's beside the point, I have notice a small growing selection of fantasy books that are not just ye old Eroupe with magic and dragons but few if any people talk about them. I mean if there is something fantasy needs epic or not is to shack things up te get more people interested in the genre. Side note I suspect Capitialism is also behind the reason long dead authors are still publishing novels.
Looks like i missed Epic Fantasy dying. 😂 Seems like some people should 1) step out of their comfort zone and try reading something new (there are a few romantasy books i enjoy because they have suspense and mystery elements) or 2) reread their favourites again ( i am reading malazan for the 4th time right now). And we shouldn‘t say genres are dying, they are evolving and we as readers should maybe evolve too. Maybe we enjoy the new stuff or we find another subgenre we enjoy even more. For the sake of honesty: i think if UA-cam was my main source of income my Point of view would be different bc Drama sells but i have the privilege to be just a viewer so… take what i said not to serious 😅
I think all the people moaning about the "death" of epic fantasy might want to spend less time doing that and more time broadening their reading scope. EDIT: Your point about the drop-off in readership as a series continues to be published also reflects on UA-cam, the further into a series you go, the smaller the audience is, so UA-camrs bemoaning the lack of books the reviewing of which almost guarantees a drop in views seems counter to the argument...
Well, even a video about A Dance With Dragons or the final WOT book will still do much better than a video about an unknown stand-alone novel so it still makes sense to bemoan the supposed lack of such series.
@@RafBlutaxt Ah, but popularly begets popularity, not necessarily quality. And this applies not only to books, but the UA-camrs discussing them. It's not like the world needs another masturbatory video on The Wheel of Time or whatever.
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd That may be so but UA-cam is a platform built on popularity and the larger your channel gets, especially once you're getting money (very little but still) for your videos, it becomes very hard not to prioritize popularity over other aspects when deciding what to talk about.
@@RafBlutaxt And the motivation for starting a channel is also worthy of discussion. One would hope it's because the person is passionate about the subject and has something to offer rather than desperately seeking affirmation through social media. It might be cynical of me to assume that people bemoaning the death of "X" are actually bemoaning their loss of relevance, but...
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd That's probably a topic for a whole video on its own. I think that the more adult epic fantasy part of booktube had a big boost during the pandemic when a lot of folks got their start because we were all stuck at home and had the time to read, record videos and watch them and that situation has obviously changed a good deal. So growth for a lot of channels has probably slowed although with Petrik or LoaV I don't know how much of their subs are recent compared to say a year or two ago, they certainly have channel sizes that I will never reach.
What makes a good video about books and publishing? One that you agree with but don't listen to critically, one you quickly turn off, or one that pisses you off, and prompts comments something like this...drunken, poorly informed clown, out-of-closest commie, bearded dude with a little sword, or self-appointed voice of conscience in the fierce North Wilderness? The whole publishing world wonders. Went into a bookstore last week (hadn't been in one for maybe a year). Foot traffic was so-so, and the make up of the patrons was probably 75% female. The fantasy-sci-fi section was PACKED with volumes and series I had never heard of, not just with ASOFAI, LOTR, or Let's Go BrandonS, and many were written by....women. There was NO lack of diversity, representation, or wide color palettes relating to cover art. In the new release-fiction section, the selection of books looked to be 75 or 80% female authored, with MANY titles showing catchy images of boss-babes, of girls skinny or fat, lonely, clever, hot, solving crimes, of all colors, origin stories, orientation, nationality, and with no lack of agency or gender-identity diversity. What does this mean? These stores are MARKET driven, they reflect the demographics of those reading and buying the books, and this tug and pull between supply and demand strongly controls who is writing the books. It is a VERY reactionary market, because it has to be in order to keep the doors open. If they do not cater to their customers, NOOOO business. You or I may despise this, but this is reality. You can't change it by yourself, you can only note and comment. Look, all abuse aside, you and your fellow booktubers are providing a good service just by talking about books and discussing problems. And no, this is not the 1950's and 60's of mom and pops and independent publishers. Our modern economy and financial systems suck in oh so many ways. Manners and modesty are no longer in fashion. But there ARE ways for someone with a good idea and the gumption to sit down and do the work to get published. In a market system where discourse is still allowed, word will get out if a work has merit. If you don't believe this, what can you believe in? There is also such a thing as market saturation. After the fifth iteration of gay dwarves , elves, simps, and boss girls on quest, all with swords of varying length, with dragons overhead, the trope may have grown a little overly troppy. Come up with some better ideas. Even vampires and zombies get long in the tooth, at least until some time has passed so a new crop of rubes is ready to be harvested. Yeah, I can guess that you hate market capitalism, that this hatred is even brewed into the swill you're guzzling, but would you rather have Putin or Dear Leader Kim decide, on socialist and good governance principles, who publishes what, and who gets to read, and what orientations and views are considered acceptable for presentation?
I'm a little annoyed with this conversation because I think people are looking at it from the wrong angle, as you know, I made a video talking about if fantasy is in an identity crisis and if we're stuck in the Tolkien/Howard/pseudo-medieval model that fantasy seems to be in. There are authors like Mieville, James, and Catling who I think deserve more love and are doing some really interesting things with the fantasy genre, and no one's really paying them mind (with exceptions of course.)
Is epic fantasy dead? That's the wrong question. Is fantasy stuck in a rut? Now that should be considered.
I think "epic fantasy", i.e. big books or even several volumes should have remained a comparably rare exception. Like horror and SF, the better vehicle for fantasy are shorter forms, short stories up to novellas/short/normal sized novels (as it mostly was in the Sword & Sorcery or Weird tales beginning until the 1960s). Sure, some exceptions work well and there were a few large books (The worm Ouroboros) early on but epic multi volume series as standard is a "mistake".
Oh yeah, I definitely agree with your takes on the whole question of whether fantasy might be stuck in a rut.
Great vid. I definitely think you've hit the nail on the head with the way a lot of booktubers are allergic to the discussion of commercialised fiction and what it means for their favourite genre.
I'm hoping this whole artificial problem will be resolved by some of these booktubers reading something less commercial, I would even be very happy with them dipping their toes into fantasy's history. Let's see some Jack Vance, M John Harrison, and Fritz Leiber discussion hit the booktube shelves. Or Katherine Kurtz, Mary Gentle, and Jane Yolen if we want them diversifying a little more.
The main reason I started my channel was to try and see some change in regards to what fantasy booktube talks about and how they talk about it.
EDIT: I also think these booktubers undervalue how much they can also just set little trends into motion. I don't think booktube is swaying the industry even slightly, but they do influence their own sphere. Just talking about something else, even if it's not widely read, can spur others into reading it, especially if multiple booktubers do buddy reads.
Thank you very much! I certainly won't complain about more Jack Vance discourse or anything tackling older or just less known books. The problem is unfortunately that those videos tend to do incredibly poorly (they certainly do for me when I talk about Leiber or Vance) and if you're an established booktuber actively depending on the little money UA-cam makes, talking about them might just be too big a risk. It would require concerted efforts of a group of booktubers all talking about a book to break through that barrier in both the algorithm and their audience and I am not sure if anyone's willing to do that. The other part is of course that reading older texts requires the ability and willingness to encounter them on their own terms and within their historical context, something that can be pretty hard for people who have only read books published in the last 20 years.
@RafBlutaxt Both valid points. I admit as someone who views any and all creative output as a labour of love and avoids financial gain from it, I sometime push my own biases onto others who operate more willingly in the space of capital (not that I begrudge them for it-it's the system we're in after all). For smaller booktubers especially it feels more prudent to act on what will be fruitful as opposed to what might be more fulfilling. I guess I'm also just of the opinion that when you're smaller that's your chance to take the biggest risks. A small audience might stay small but for you and other smaller booktubers I notice that despite a lower viewcount there are still healthy comment sections and communal aspects. Which to me feel more valuable.
But now I'm just sort of rambling, would just like to see some more proactive reading in the community.
@@HabitualBlood Oh, I very much wish the same and I agree that it is easier to take risks as a very small channel. Someone like Petrik or Library of a Viking have grown into the precarious size where the money does begin to actually matter and risks become financial and not just creative so I can see where they're coming from in that regard. I make less than 5$ per month through UA-cam so having 20 instead of 200 views on a video really doesn't matter to me, having active comment sections however does. Unfortunately with the way the UA-cam algorithm pushed popular videos and buries less popular ones there's a real chance that many poeple who would actually love a video on say Jack Vance won't even find it unless they actively search for it so even the community and conversation aspect suffers when the potential popularity of a video is not prioritized. This is obviously baked into the system because the goal of UA-cam is to maximize views and thus profits.
@@RafBlutaxt The system's always working against us, that's for sure.
Great job spelling this out Raf. I didn't watch any of those videos because I think the premise put in the titles was ridiculous. Epic fantasy was never actually that popular in the bigger picture. Sure GoT gave it a little blip as did LoTR back in the 60s. Beyond that, epic fantasy has always had one foot in the grave with regards to the corporate numbers game. I still get asked what I read from time to time and when I say Epic Fantasy (which is mostly true, ha), I still get asked, "oh, what's that?" or "Is that like that Game of Thrones thing?" A lot of the general public aren't interested in the esoteric genre manipulating that some of us nerds love to participate in. So, epic fantasy is where it is and where it will most likely always be. Just this strange classification that can't be explained easily. Forget about Grimdark and all the rest. Back in my early reading days, fantasy wasn't even separated from sci-fi yet, ha ha. Anyway, I'm rambling on because you brought up such great points. Thanks!
Thanks! I think the whole subgenre thing is mostly a marketing tool on the one hand and a way to gatekeep and distinguish oneself from the other fantasy readers. In that regard it is very similar to the subgenre game within heavy metal. There's this tendency of nerds to compensate our feelings of inferiority by throwing fellow nerds under the bus through these games of claiming our specific nerd thing is more serious than theirs. A lot of it I suspect is rooted in toxic masculinity and general sexism but all that would be the subject for a video of its own.
We need to seize the means of epic fantasy production! ✊
Booktubers running out of the backlog of popular, long series to talk about is a really great point.
Well, technically self-publishing is just that, seizing the means of production. Unfortunately it does not lend itself to making popular videos because the market is so big and so few people have read any specific book.
Fantasy is dead! Long live Fantasy!
Haha! I actually brought up capitalism in the discussion with Tori thinking of you. I think we also did a good job defining what we meant, and I didn’t define it by long books or guys with swords. Janny Wurts was in the chat and also added an excellent definition, which she got from Steven Erikson. Plus, Tori is a self-published epic fantasy author, so much support there!
I personally don’t think romantacy or cozy fantasy are necessarily at odds with epic fantasy or have to be. There are many readers who enjoy all types of fantasy though it might not seem like it in certain corners of the internet.
Well, it is hard to talk about the publishing industry and ignore that it functions under capitalism although several booktubers have managed it. Your discussion with Tori was very nuanced both because discussions allow for more nuance and exploration than a 15 minute rant by one person and because with Tori as a self-published author and people like Janny Wurts in chat you had way more insight into the process of publishing than others like me. My main point was that while there may be fewer epic fantasy series published by big publishers at the moment, just winging about it feels pointless and self-indulgent and I'd rather have people talk about what to do with the situation which you two definitely did more than others.
Great video! I just found your channel and I'm really glad I did. I think you are spot on with what you are saying about epic fantasy.
Well argued, as usual, and gave me stuff to think about the hadn't occurred to me. And refreshingly not clickbait, like most (not all) videos I've seen on the subject.
I’ve avoided the other videos and your explanation is spot on. Nonsense and sensationalism woe-is-me sells some I guess.
Seeing that this video is already my most successful in ages I have to agree, sensationalism and drama do indeed sell.
I hope epic fantasy isn't dead cause I've been trying to write one.
Best of luck with it and I hope I get to read it when it's done!
I really enjoyed this video (and your humour is excellent!). I found especially the last part to be helpful and something I will try and keep more in mind going forward.
Best wishes!
Thank you very much!
I guess "epic fantasy is dying" is what people say, who also believe that Abercrombie invented "grim dark". Who have no idea that everything Abercrombie "invented" was already written by Poul Anderson 60 years ago in "Broken Sword". By the way, maybe this isn't the end of the golden age of epic fantasy, but the end of the golden age of their BookTube channels?😮
"Most of us don't know shit about the publishing industry, and that's part of the problem." THANK YOU!! Almost no BTers know anything about publishing or writing craft. Lol. Raf with the truth as always.
The idea of "epic fantasy is dead" reminds me of "metal/rock is dead." Arguably, it's not the truth but many trends shapes the mainstream media and it's not what determines the absence of alternatives. They evolve in other forms of media coverage. We live in the world of consumerism. That being said, we all have to find what we like not what we find to be present at all times. 😊
Yeah, it feels similar to the rock and metal is dead thing. I of course agree that both music genres are dead and have been dead for ages. ;)
cheers!
Don't think it's necessarily dying. In a rut, probably. But most art forms go in cycles, Romantasy is popular right now but that will inevitably become out of fashion as "epic" is currently. completely agree with you that there is so much "epic fantasy" from the past to read that I think a lot of people moaning completely ignore. And most of it is fantastic, and huge, and definitely epic. 🤘
I agree that this is all a bit of a silly convo. The simple fact is, a person cannot live long enough to read all of the good epic fantasy out there. Yes, some older stuff falls into formulaic tropes etc but there is more good content than any one human could read with more coming out every day.
THAT BEING SAID, I will be the odd man out in this comment section and push back a bit on your analysis.
A signifiant part of the frustration many have (myself included to some small degree) is that the market shift away from more what we knew as epic fantasy to more 'modern styles' of epic fantasy (the loss of privilege as you call it) does not always feel organic or profit driven. Many companies are more than willing to take profit hits for particular social purposes. (which is fine if they want to do that, THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT but that is a choice they are making, not an organic response to capitalist pressure. So that does make it is something we have a right to comment on and debate).
I will also say, your final point comparing people who are frustrated at this general shift in style with 'ists' and 'phobes' is just a bad take. This feels like when I look at the latest Star Wars series, and go "wow this is a really bad show" only to be viscously attacked with some horrific names because after all, there is ONLY ONE reason you could ever see the content as bad.
The simple but sometimes unwelcome fact is, the demographic FAR AND AWAY most likely to read epic fantasy books is men. So that's why men have historically been written to more, they simply buy way more epic fantasy books than women. Men are still today by far the largest demographic of people reading what we would all agree are epic fantasy books but there is a definite conscious shift by many major companies to shift towards selling books that are more geared towards women (again, thats fine, they can do that, more power to them, but its a choice they are making).
Again, I think your conclusion is pretty accurate, but I do have to say, I disagree with the path you took to get there.
I would concede that publishers do not always make fully profit-driven decisions but I doubt it is for "social causes". I think it is mostly because they overvalue certain feedback, in this case booktok when making said decisions. The booktok community skews heavily towards gen z and towards women and after the inarguable financial success of some booktok books the publishers jumped on that trend without reserve. I don't think anyone I linked to is making the claims about the lack of epic fantasy because of deeply held misogynist attitudes or the likes but wanted to point out that the way the argument is so often tied to the rise of romantasy can lead down that road and dovetails with the arguments of people who clearly have said attitudes so we need to be careful to not get instrumentalized by such people. I have not seen any Star Wars shows so won't comment on that subject.
@@RafBlutaxt My point was simply that there are forces outside of simple market reaction that cause companies (in this case publishers) to do dumb things. Which I think we agree on.
I just know that I have basically stopped reading new books coming out because clearly very few of the current 'popular' books are aimed towards me as a reader. (a bit hyperbolic but not extremely hyperbolic)
Again, I am not mad about that, I am reading Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, I'm fine, but I can definitely see that there is a clear change in direction recently, and it feels counter to what would be logical economically.
I will take your word that you were simply warning about 'dovetail' arguments. I mentioned it, because it is very common (especially online) for people to simply disparage large groups of people by just connecting their stance with some form of bigotry. It is a common way to dodge perfectly honest concerns.
Brilliant stuff Raf. Thank you 🤘
Thanks mate!
I really appreciate the acknowledgement of the fact that a lot of this whining (or the way it's often presented) is very pretentious. It's not "Oh it's a shame that these types of books that i personally like and that fit my personal taste aren't being published anymore", it's more like "Ugh, all that is published today is just romantasy. Why can't they publish real, grown-up, actually good books anymore. All those superficial, brainless, esthetic TikTok girlies are taking over and destroying literature!!!".
Oh yeah, there's a high level of misogyny, internalized in some cases and just plain old misogyny in other cases going around, combine it with blaming gen z and tiktok and you have a ready-made package of complaint that's sure to be appreciated by lots of frustrated older white dudes online. I have watched a few videos discussing the whole "booktok is ruining reading" concept but have not spoken about it myself as I have never seen a booktok clip in my life and thus feel underqualified to talk about it but I think it connects to the death of epic fantasy discourse through these attempts of gatekeeping and distinction.
great points as usual :)
the other thing is that there is nothing wrong with (relative) conciseness, being limited to a trilogy still means you have plenty of pages to tell a story and make a point, not sure anyone would argue endless fat book series lead to higher quality writing/
As a huge fan of the Black Company novels by Glen Cook I absolutely agree with you here. Even in epic fantasy size isn't everything.
I'm not even sure if I believe the argument has legs to stand on in its *most generous* formation. Big Janny Wurts just released, Big Ian C Esslemont just released, Tad Williams is firing on all cylinders, has recently released stuff and has another coming this year. Sanderson's mega huge gargantuan nonsense is coming this year. Etc. There's surely another 20 that easily fit the definition or so with some digging.
I think your point about the booktube focus is 100% it, top to bottom, and it's silly bc they of all people should have the wider view.
I think the only part where the argument might work is with new authors not getting deals for huge epic fantasy novels or series. Established authors keep getting published because publishers already know they will sell. The irony is of course that many larger booktubers won't talk about debut epic fantasy novels because these videos usually do worse than those about established authors.
Yes profit is the main goal for these publishers but I believe only 2 of the big five are publicly traded. That said: yes they all want to make money. Publishing fat fantasy books with a lot of paper by debut authors has mostly proven to not be profitable unless they catch lightning in a bottle.
That said, there’s plenty of proving grounds out there that authors are still writing in, offered by capitalism (in this instance, fortunately).
The ability to self publish is a wonder for future and current authors of all genres.
I agree that we shouldn’t whine about it, and just take advantage of the access we have to readers that authors from 30 years ago did not.
That said, I don’t know if I took any of these book tubers as “whining” so much as bringing on the conversation. It’s likely their intention was to get the attention of people who work for these publishers to take more swings on debut authors than it was to get people who write phat fantasy to stop writing it.
Anyways, love the personality and energy you brought in this mini-rant! Can always appreciate a good cheers.
While I don't read fantasy now and than I give it a try. So far other than the dark tower and conan I haven't read much that grabs me. That's beside the point, I have notice a small growing selection of fantasy books that are not just ye old Eroupe with magic and dragons but few if any people talk about them. I mean if there is something fantasy needs epic or not is to shack things up te get more people interested in the genre.
Side note I suspect Capitialism is also behind the reason long dead authors are still publishing novels.
Looks like i missed Epic Fantasy dying. 😂
Seems like some people should 1) step out of their comfort zone and try reading something new (there are a few romantasy books i enjoy because they have suspense and mystery elements) or 2) reread their favourites again ( i am reading malazan for the 4th time right now).
And we shouldn‘t say genres are dying, they are evolving and we as readers should maybe evolve too. Maybe we enjoy the new stuff or we find another subgenre we enjoy even more.
For the sake of honesty: i think if UA-cam was my main source of income my Point of view would be different bc Drama sells but i have the privilege to be just a viewer so… take what i said not to serious 😅
I think all the people moaning about the "death" of epic fantasy might want to spend less time doing that and more time broadening their reading scope.
EDIT: Your point about the drop-off in readership as a series continues to be published also reflects on UA-cam, the further into a series you go, the smaller the audience is, so UA-camrs bemoaning the lack of books the reviewing of which almost guarantees a drop in views seems counter to the argument...
Well, even a video about A Dance With Dragons or the final WOT book will still do much better than a video about an unknown stand-alone novel so it still makes sense to bemoan the supposed lack of such series.
@@RafBlutaxt Ah, but popularly begets popularity, not necessarily quality. And this applies not only to books, but the UA-camrs discussing them.
It's not like the world needs another masturbatory video on The Wheel of Time or whatever.
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd That may be so but UA-cam is a platform built on popularity and the larger your channel gets, especially once you're getting money (very little but still) for your videos, it becomes very hard not to prioritize popularity over other aspects when deciding what to talk about.
@@RafBlutaxt And the motivation for starting a channel is also worthy of discussion. One would hope it's because the person is passionate about the subject and has something to offer rather than desperately seeking affirmation through social media.
It might be cynical of me to assume that people bemoaning the death of "X" are actually bemoaning their loss of relevance, but...
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd That's probably a topic for a whole video on its own. I think that the more adult epic fantasy part of booktube had a big boost during the pandemic when a lot of folks got their start because we were all stuck at home and had the time to read, record videos and watch them and that situation has obviously changed a good deal. So growth for a lot of channels has probably slowed although with Petrik or LoaV I don't know how much of their subs are recent compared to say a year or two ago, they certainly have channel sizes that I will never reach.
What makes a good video about books and publishing? One that you agree with but don't listen to critically, one you quickly turn off, or one that pisses you off, and prompts comments something like this...drunken, poorly informed clown, out-of-closest commie, bearded dude with a little sword, or self-appointed voice of conscience in the fierce North Wilderness?
The whole publishing world wonders.
Went into a bookstore last week (hadn't been in one for maybe a year). Foot traffic was so-so, and the make up of the patrons was probably 75% female.
The fantasy-sci-fi section was PACKED with volumes and series I had never heard of, not just with ASOFAI, LOTR, or Let's Go BrandonS, and many were written by....women. There was NO lack of diversity, representation, or wide color palettes relating to cover art.
In the new release-fiction section, the selection of books looked to be 75 or 80% female authored, with MANY titles showing catchy images of boss-babes, of girls skinny or fat, lonely, clever, hot, solving crimes, of all colors, origin stories, orientation, nationality, and with no lack of agency or gender-identity diversity.
What does this mean?
These stores are MARKET driven, they reflect the demographics of those reading and buying the books, and this tug and pull between supply and demand strongly controls who is writing the books. It is a VERY reactionary market, because it has to be in order to keep the doors open. If they do not cater to their customers, NOOOO business. You or I may despise this, but this is reality. You can't change it by yourself, you can only note and comment.
Look, all abuse aside, you and your fellow booktubers are providing a good service just by talking about books and discussing problems. And no, this is not the 1950's and 60's of mom and pops and independent publishers. Our modern economy and financial systems suck in oh so many ways. Manners and modesty are no longer in fashion. But there ARE ways for someone with a good idea and the gumption to sit down and do the work to get published. In a market system where discourse is still allowed, word will get out if a work has merit. If you don't believe this, what can you believe in?
There is also such a thing as market saturation. After the fifth iteration of gay dwarves , elves, simps, and boss girls on quest, all with swords of varying length, with dragons overhead, the trope may have grown a little overly troppy. Come up with some better ideas. Even vampires and zombies get long in the tooth, at least until some time has passed so a new crop of rubes is ready to be harvested.
Yeah, I can guess that you hate market capitalism, that this hatred is even brewed into the swill you're guzzling, but would you rather have Putin or Dear Leader Kim decide, on socialist and good governance principles, who publishes what, and who gets to read, and what orientations and views are considered acceptable for presentation?
Good for you! I'm delighted someone stood up to this Marxist bibliophilic bully!