Just want to add a bit of context on why the Yuan clan was so powerful. In the Eastern Han period, there was no streamlined, merit-based imperial examinations to recruit bureaucrats, so to become one, you can be a) be recommended by a high ranking government official (at least commandery administrator level) b) start as a lowly clerk in the lowest administrative level and work your way up or c) attend the equivalence of a national grand university and get chosen for a quota of about 100 per year (there were about 600-700 posts to be filled annually). Such as it was, since the high ranking officials had so much power in bestowing those positions, the higher you go, the wider your network become. And in Chinese social norms at the time, you are indebted and requires to be loyal not only to the man who recommended you, but also the man who recommended the man who recommended you, so on and so forth, so if we take an average career from an administrator to the post of Grand Tutor, for instance, as about 10 years, then that man would have nearly a thousand people in government or had been in government indebted to him, which goes down to their offsprings as well. Over a few generations, we are talking about probably 70, 80% of the bureaucracy being compelled to support that clan. So that’s why Yuan Shao became the leader of the coalition, he was a charismatic and capable man in his own rights, but being the face of the Yuan clan conveyed a legitimacy only second to that of the emperor, and probably even more for some part of the population.
Wow, it is even better with the timeline! It is better understandable or more reasonable why somebody did something or why. Often when you read or listen to history you ask yourself "why did he do something so stupid?" Because at that moment he couldn't know things, because they will happen later in the timeline. It really helps a lot 👍
I'm more interested in how you will explain how inefficient the coalition was and that technically the only ones who dared to face Dong Zhou and his armies in battle was Sun Jian (who scored great victories after a minor defeat) and Cao Cao (who suffered from a crushing defeat by Xu Rong). The rest of the coalition just sat there twiddling their thumbs
More than 18 Warlords of the East and the Warlords of the West cannot defeat the Grandmaster of the Eastern Han Empire! Hail the Tyrant! Sucks to be someone like Yuan Shu who turns down a Tyrant's offer and run like a coward to his rival of a brother, could have saved time for some of the Yuan clan inside Luoyang
I really really love these videos. I picked up Total War Three Kingdoms because I'm a Total War fan and picked it over warhammer because I wanted to play a historical rather than a fantasy setting. And man do I love the crap out of it. I hate to request videos without a patreon, but one thing that would help me out a lot would be a primer on the historical religions. Especially Three Kingdoms era Confucianism. From what I understand Confucianism is more of a political philosophy than a religion, but I don't really know anything about this time period.
correct there is no state religion and even taoism was seem more as a philosophy than a religion. I could do a video on the transition of "school of thoughts" throughout the Han Dynasty but it will probably be a way in the future
@@SeriousTrivia Okay that makes sense. So in the game they are a bit anachronistic then. Just sort of there since players would be expecting SOME religious building to help with public order. Sorry to keep spamming this.
I think temples is just a place to remember someone in most sense. Think of it as ancestral worship of sorts, but yes it is definitely a game design decision for the most part
Wasn’t Yuan Shao being fooled by Dong Zhuo, who ordered some of his army to march out at night and re-enter the city at dawn, making it seem as though he was receiving reinforcements?
Dong Zhuo did that to try to fool everyone inside the capital. I don’t think it had any material impact except for maybe shocking He Jin’s old troops to joining Dong Zhuo. Yuan Shao had very little force at his disposal to begin with.
Man im hyped to watch this. Do you think you will ever do another lore video like the ones for Zhang Lu on other characters such as Shi Xie or Liu Zhang?
Since I am the first here, I will call for a Coalition to oppose the Tyrant, rescue the Emperor and destroy the traitors! The Dragon of Yuan has lain dormant for too long, will this chaos awaken him?
Something that always confused me about the Han tombs and how they were so easy for Dong Zhou to rob is didn't Han emperors usually had their tombs constructed on the borders of the empire, far away from the capital? And weren't they normally huge burial mounds and not your typical crypt? I always thought that Dong Zhou robbing the tombs of the Han emperors was somewhat exaggerated, that it was a detail historians made up to add to his infamy.
Tombs are like home after death. And the location is usually according to fengshui and placed on what’s is usually called a dragon’s vein. They are basically huge palace compounds and not hidden at all. The old warring states and Qin tombs were more hidden but later dynasties especially long lasting dynasties had tombs in very obvious places. Heavily guarded but often robbed. If you ever have a chance to visit Beijing there is the Ming Dynasty tombs of 13 emperors right outside the city. Tombs were usually close to the capital so future emperors can go visit and perform rituals.
@@SeriousTrivia Interesting. I just assumed traditionally they were large burial mounds with palaces or villas that got covered up with tons of dirt so they would normally look like hills in some remote location. I assume the early Han emperors opted for those types of tombs which had a similar blueprint (though scaled down versions) to Qin Shi Huang's tomb.
So the mound part and the underground parts are hard to get to but the whereabouts of the tombs are pretty clear even for qinshihuang. Here is a link of the Ming structures: images.app.goo.gl/eP6Gtm2cmW5HcowG9 what would happen is that you would be able to have a good guess and if you had the manpower and access you can dig and look for stuff. Liu Hong’s tomb wasn’t entirely sealed yet because they were putting Empress He is one of the chambers so it was a golden opportunity. The other tombs were difficult even for Dong Zhuo so they were not entirely emptied. Later generations would continue to loot these Han tombs even till post World War Two periods and they still yielded great treasures showing the depth and amount of burial good present inside them. Like the terra-cotta soldiers were a small part of the the qinshihuang tomb complex and the ones people can go visit today are like one fourth the amount of terra-cotta soldiers available. These tombs were massive.
Not certain because that was just his Marquis title. If he rise up to a Duke and King rank before your assumed usurpation here, then there are chances he gets a different title
Just want to add a bit of context on why the Yuan clan was so powerful.
In the Eastern Han period, there was no streamlined, merit-based imperial examinations to recruit bureaucrats, so to become one, you can be a) be recommended by a high ranking government official (at least commandery administrator level) b) start as a lowly clerk in the lowest administrative level and work your way up or c) attend the equivalence of a national grand university and get chosen for a quota of about 100 per year (there were about 600-700 posts to be filled annually).
Such as it was, since the high ranking officials had so much power in bestowing those positions, the higher you go, the wider your network become. And in Chinese social norms at the time, you are indebted and requires to be loyal not only to the man who recommended you, but also the man who recommended the man who recommended you, so on and so forth, so if we take an average career from an administrator to the post of Grand Tutor, for instance, as about 10 years, then that man would have nearly a thousand people in government or had been in government indebted to him, which goes down to their offsprings as well. Over a few generations, we are talking about probably 70, 80% of the bureaucracy being compelled to support that clan.
So that’s why Yuan Shao became the leader of the coalition, he was a charismatic and capable man in his own rights, but being the face of the Yuan clan conveyed a legitimacy only second to that of the emperor, and probably even more for some part of the population.
This just makes me wish the Three Kingdoms TV show would have started a bit earlier to see all this important drama.
Agreed I need a drama about this
Wow, it is even better with the timeline! It is better understandable or more reasonable why somebody did something or why. Often when you read or listen to history you ask yourself "why did he do something so stupid?" Because at that moment he couldn't know things, because they will happen later in the timeline.
It really helps a lot 👍
I'm more interested in how you will explain how inefficient the coalition was and that technically the only ones who dared to face Dong Zhou and his armies in battle was Sun Jian (who scored great victories after a minor defeat) and Cao Cao (who suffered from a crushing defeat by Xu Rong). The rest of the coalition just sat there twiddling their thumbs
Great stuff as always! Every time these vids come out, I end up playing another 20 hours of TW lol.
More than 18 Warlords of the East and the Warlords of the West cannot defeat the Grandmaster of the Eastern Han Empire!
Hail the Tyrant!
Sucks to be someone like Yuan Shu who turns down a Tyrant's offer and run like a coward to his rival of a brother, could have saved time for some of the Yuan clan inside Luoyang
I really really love these videos. I picked up Total War Three Kingdoms because I'm a Total War fan and picked it over warhammer because I wanted to play a historical rather than a fantasy setting. And man do I love the crap out of it.
I hate to request videos without a patreon, but one thing that would help me out a lot would be a primer on the historical religions. Especially Three Kingdoms era Confucianism. From what I understand Confucianism is more of a political philosophy than a religion, but I don't really know anything about this time period.
correct there is no state religion and even taoism was seem more as a philosophy than a religion. I could do a video on the transition of "school of thoughts" throughout the Han Dynasty but it will probably be a way in the future
@@SeriousTrivia So to ask one more question based on that, what exactly happened at Confucian shrines/temples then?
@@lesdeuxanes6203 there are confucian schools where they teach. There is only one confucian shrine and that is where Confucius is buried
@@SeriousTrivia Okay that makes sense. So in the game they are a bit anachronistic then. Just sort of there since players would be expecting SOME religious building to help with public order.
Sorry to keep spamming this.
I think temples is just a place to remember someone in most sense. Think of it as ancestral worship of sorts, but yes it is definitely a game design decision for the most part
Great work again Serious Trivia! :D
Wow things happened quickly once Dong Zhuo got in.
Interesting ! the book seems to agree with empress he killed dowager dong. Anyway whatever bad boy dong wants.
Wasn’t Yuan Shao being fooled by Dong Zhuo, who ordered some of his army to march out at night and re-enter the city at dawn, making it seem as though he was receiving reinforcements?
Dong Zhuo did that to try to fool everyone inside the capital. I don’t think it had any material impact except for maybe shocking He Jin’s old troops to joining Dong Zhuo. Yuan Shao had very little force at his disposal to begin with.
Man im hyped to watch this. Do you think you will ever do another lore video like the ones for Zhang Lu on other characters such as Shi Xie or Liu Zhang?
of course!
Since I am the first here, I will call for a Coalition to oppose the Tyrant, rescue the Emperor and destroy the traitors! The Dragon of Yuan has lain dormant for too long, will this chaos awaken him?
Something that always confused me about the Han tombs and how they were so easy for Dong Zhou to rob is didn't Han emperors usually had their tombs constructed on the borders of the empire, far away from the capital? And weren't they normally huge burial mounds and not your typical crypt? I always thought that Dong Zhou robbing the tombs of the Han emperors was somewhat exaggerated, that it was a detail historians made up to add to his infamy.
Tombs are like home after death. And the location is usually according to fengshui and placed on what’s is usually called a dragon’s vein. They are basically huge palace compounds and not hidden at all. The old warring states and Qin tombs were more hidden but later dynasties especially long lasting dynasties had tombs in very obvious places. Heavily guarded but often robbed. If you ever have a chance to visit Beijing there is the Ming Dynasty tombs of 13 emperors right outside the city. Tombs were usually close to the capital so future emperors can go visit and perform rituals.
@@SeriousTrivia Interesting. I just assumed traditionally they were large burial mounds with palaces or villas that got covered up with tons of dirt so they would normally look like hills in some remote location. I assume the early Han emperors opted for those types of tombs which had a similar blueprint (though scaled down versions) to Qin Shi Huang's tomb.
So the mound part and the underground parts are hard to get to but the whereabouts of the tombs are pretty clear even for qinshihuang. Here is a link of the Ming structures: images.app.goo.gl/eP6Gtm2cmW5HcowG9 what would happen is that you would be able to have a good guess and if you had the manpower and access you can dig and look for stuff. Liu Hong’s tomb wasn’t entirely sealed yet because they were putting Empress He is one of the chambers so it was a golden opportunity. The other tombs were difficult even for Dong Zhuo so they were not entirely emptied. Later generations would continue to loot these Han tombs even till post World War Two periods and they still yielded great treasures showing the depth and amount of burial good present inside them. Like the terra-cotta soldiers were a small part of the the qinshihuang tomb complex and the ones people can go visit today are like one fourth the amount of terra-cotta soldiers available. These tombs were massive.
So I heard something about a assassination attempt on his life that made him wear armor not lu bu and Wang yun's what was that whole story about
That’s much later
So dong zhuos kingdom should be called Mei?
Not certain because that was just his Marquis title. If he rise up to a Duke and King rank before your assumed usurpation here, then there are chances he gets a different title
@@SeriousTriviahmm i see but i thought you said he was Duke of Mei