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I seem to remember a consultative document that proposed that Liverpool Street was turned into a bus/coach station and trains would have been scrapped and buses only on the route, this was back around 1976 or 1977, totally impractical but that's plans for you.
12:50 Customise your news remind me of the 90s sci-fi show Babylon 5 where captain Sheridan get a newspaper from the computer dispenser. It asks if he would like to customise his newspaper and he lists more topics including Sports.
@MichaelCampin No Michael, that was Marylebone, as a replacement for Victoria Coacj Station. I think it came close to happening. [...] Right, here's an article, which includes "The plans got as far as formal consultation": carolineld.blogspot.com/2016/10/marylebeon-coach-station.html
To extend the comparison with the Paris RER, in Paris in the 70's the historic food market was actually destroyed to make room for the transport hub that became "Châtelet - Les Halles", now the nevralgic center of the RER network ("Les Halles" meaning food market in French).
the inspiration from the Paris RER on the plan is clear, given that the French built the initial system’s main city hub on the site of Les Halles, which was the central wholesale market until it was decamped to the southern outskirts. presumably Covent Garden’s fate would have been very similar, with a massive new shopping centre on top, or perhaps even a proto-mini-Canary Wharf
On youtube somewhere there's a Thames TV report from the early 70s headed by Bill Grundy (sex pistols fame) and Tony Bastable (I think, as in Magpie). It discussed the Covent Garden plans after the market closed, and the one on the table was effectivwely demolition of the lot. 'Heritage' sites kept - probably just the Opera House and maybe Theatre Royal since a big road - dual carriageway was to be built from Drury Lane (maybe Kingsway?) straight to Trafalgar Sq. Just north of the Strand. And at a time when big ideas like the London box hadn't quite gone out of fashion. Anyway, Covent Garden would be pretty much no more. In which case a big rail station as well would have a nice brownfield site to be plonked.
A line stopping at Victoria, Westminster, Charing Cross, Ludgate, Moorgate would be an excellent addition to the transport system (and would connect with all lines, unlike Elizabeth line which avoids Victoria line)
Oh dear, as much as it pains me to find a difference of recollection in a Hazzard production, it's my belief that it was Horace Cutler, leader of the then Greater London Council who insisted on the name change from Fleet Line to Jubilee Line. The change was widely viewed as nothing more than an attempt to curry favour with the powers that be.
Why did it occur to no-one that what the rest of the country needs is express through trains across London so we can have much quicker (for example) Norwich to Bristol services? All the Elizabeth line has done is driven up house prices (even further) within the M25.
The idea then and probably today is they don't want people passing through London quickly but to change modes of transport and spend some money in London. The only current North South connection is HS1 at St Pancras and Eurostar but one still has to change trains and maybe buy something. Even HS2 will be a subsurface Station between Euston and St Pancras.
I have been asking myself this for decades. I live in Berlin now and we have mainline tracks north-south and east-west. They carry "regional expresses" much like the Lizzie line and proper main line ICEs, meaning that you can do the equivalent of getting a train from Bristol through to Liverpool Street. When crossrail was first announced, I was amazed that this wasn't considered. Yes it would have increased the cost, needing additional platforms at some stations and passing loops at others, but the benefits would have been enormous
I'm surprised Jago didn't mention that this plan would have also doomed Liverpool Street. At the time, BR's consultants were probably thinking of building another Euston Station, with a money-spinning office block over it.
@@caw25sha - I've heard that. But in the 1970s, it would have been possible to flatten Liverpool Street without a thought. London Euston is kind of like New York's Penn Station.
Perhaps we can only be thankful for the impecunious state of Britain's economy in 1974, otherwise we may yet have had Covent Garden Grand Central, with the interchange below being opportunistically smothered by the Brutalist development some were itching to dump there.
the southern line curves away from the lines out of london bridge to meet them again at right angles at new cross gate. they'd do that to tunnel onto lewisham.
The map shows it following the route of the Bricklayers Arms (freight only) line, south of London Bridge, which was still in operation when the report was written. I rather doubt that they would have built an even longer tunnel, all the way back to the Brighton & Southeastern main lines, when there was already a working railway on the surface at the time.
There wouldn't be a need to actually demolish the Market Building at Covent Garden. Especially when one could convert the building into a Station and build the Platforms Underground. It would also mean that the inadequacies of Covent Garden Tube Station could finally be addressed.
It is interesting that the proposals didn't include a link to Heathrow, and that it is not obvious how an upgrade to connect to Docklands would have worked. There would also have needed to be an upgrade to connect with Eurostar services. I'd suggest that we are far better off with what we ultimately got.
The "Southern Line" appears to resurface at the Bricklayers Arms Goods Depot and re-use its branch back to the Brighton & South-eastern main lines. Does the 1974 report go into any detail on this?
Given the various hoo-hah's about knocking down St Pancras, rebuilding Liverpool Street, probably all driven by the pigs-ear they made of Euston, I could see that "a fuss" might have been made about knocking down Covent Garden. So I think it possible that the above ground area could have been turned into an entrance way for a largely under ground stop on these lines had they gone ahead. Where theres a will etc, etc. You might still have got the London Transport museum and who knows, it might have been doing more business. The freight thing has peaked my curiosity though. Moving people around with accessibility et al has obviously been at the heart of London Terminii and the Underground. You've covered one or two cases where freight was actually move around on Underground lines but there must be another history of goods - yards, through routes and so on. Where does the freight go these days - there still is some. 50 odd years ago (pre-tunnel) I came across a French (SNCF) parcel van at Oxford station. How did that get there?
As a later Crossrail scheme (again not the one actually built) had Reading and Aylsebury as the western termini and only a line through London Bridge I don't think Abbey Road and Heathrow were anywhere near being on the list.
@@bostonrailfan2427 Given the level of vandalism BR inflicted on Euston Station only 11 years earlier against massive public outcry, I think BR were quite capable of further damage.
I remember Crossrail in 1974. People were VERY cross about British Rail in 1974. Not me though, I could go to London for 50p each way by saying to the Station guys that I had come from the previous station and handing them a shiny 50p piece. They never smiled though.
That route would be duplicate too much exciting cir le line. Marble arch, Canonstreet little pointless. Souther route little use for southern london as more bakerloo, northern or Victoria line would be, Both routes have cross platform exchange ?
Whato Oh come Jago. Elizabeth and Southern? You can do better than that. How about Elizabeth and Philip? Then other new lines could have been called Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward. Mmm; perhaps not Andrew now.
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I seem to remember a consultative document that proposed that Liverpool Street was turned into a bus/coach station and trains would have been scrapped and buses only on the route, this was back around 1976 or 1977, totally impractical but that's plans for you.
12:50 Customise your news remind me of the 90s sci-fi show Babylon 5 where captain Sheridan get a newspaper from the computer dispenser.
It asks if he would like to customise his newspaper and he lists more topics including Sports.
@MichaelCampin No Michael, that was Marylebone, as a replacement for Victoria Coacj Station. I think it came close to happening.
[...] Right, here's an article, which includes "The plans got as far as formal consultation": carolineld.blogspot.com/2016/10/marylebeon-coach-station.html
Another channel to succumb to the mid-reel adverts...
@@bfappleYes, how dare he try and make an income from his videos!
I am glad that this didn't happen! I really like the Covent Garden area as it is!
Hopefully they would have left covent garden untouched and remodeled Leicester Square...
"Enough of your foolish speculation, Hazard!"
A brief image of sword sticks, unnecessary moustaches and Edwardian tomfoolery went through my mind.
Someone complaining about the writing of *King Solomon's Mines* to its author, I think 😂
Im so glad Covent Garde did not get destroyed. It is beautiful.
To extend the comparison with the Paris RER, in Paris in the 70's the historic food market was actually destroyed to make room for the transport hub that became "Châtelet - Les Halles", now the nevralgic center of the RER network ("Les Halles" meaning food market in French).
the inspiration from the Paris RER on the plan is clear, given that the French built the initial system’s main city hub on the site of Les Halles, which was the central wholesale market until it was decamped to the southern outskirts. presumably Covent Garden’s fate would have been very similar, with a massive new shopping centre on top, or perhaps even a proto-mini-Canary Wharf
Wait is that where that skyscrapers pompidou wanted is😊
On youtube somewhere there's a Thames TV report from the early 70s headed by Bill Grundy (sex pistols fame) and Tony Bastable (I think, as in Magpie). It discussed the Covent Garden plans after the market closed, and the one on the table was effectivwely demolition of the lot. 'Heritage' sites kept - probably just the Opera House and maybe Theatre Royal since a big road - dual carriageway was to be built from Drury Lane (maybe Kingsway?) straight to Trafalgar Sq. Just north of the Strand. And at a time when big ideas like the London box hadn't quite gone out of fashion. Anyway, Covent Garden would be pretty much no more. In which case a big rail station as well would have a nice brownfield site to be plonked.
You've got me reminiscent of regularly racing friends up the Covent Garden stairs now. Something you can only do as a teenager!
Your channel is one of the best places on UA-cam for quality content. Thank you for all your hard work!🍟🌖🐰
I may be two hours late, but it’s never too late to watch another master piece from Jago Hazzard :)
Thank you! All these ideas being bandied about at the time I was leaving, compared to what is there every time I visit.
Surely the other line should be known as the Charles Line as it is a curved one forming the letter "C" .. like a curved ball! 🤣
Aaaw! You should have used Elizabeth Line and Philip Line...
I'd have called it the Corgi Line 😅
Or Elizabeth II line, kinda like a sequel 😆
@@caw25shais that one of the new line names for the Overground? 🤣😎
Or Charles Line? Probably that will be what the next one is called.
The Elizabeth Line should be called the Charles Line
A line stopping at Victoria, Westminster, Charing Cross, Ludgate, Moorgate would be an excellent addition to the transport system (and would connect with all lines, unlike Elizabeth line which avoids Victoria line)
Fascinating. Thank you. And I'm really looking forward to the other videos, very much hope that's in the plural.
Thank you Jago!
What a lovely pair of documents they are as well - I'm seeing a proto-Network South East logo design there!
Going by the map, it looks to me like the Eastern end of the "Southern" line would have resurfaced on the lines going out of Bricklayers Arms.
Thanks
Oh dear, as much as it pains me to find a difference of recollection in a Hazzard production, it's my belief that it was Horace Cutler, leader of the then Greater London Council who insisted on the name change from Fleet Line to Jubilee Line. The change was widely viewed as nothing more than an attempt to curry favour with the powers that be.
6:31 Presumably the "Holborn" in this case is Holborn Viaduct Station
9:11 this seals it: it’s linked to the loss of Holborn Viaduct/creation of City Thwneslink
Why did it occur to no-one that what the rest of the country needs is express through trains across London so we can have much quicker (for example) Norwich to Bristol services? All the Elizabeth line has done is driven up house prices (even further) within the M25.
There is a South Midlands line (no idea what name it'll get) under construction. The western part is said to be ready.
The idea then and probably today is they don't want people passing through London quickly but to change modes of transport and spend some money in London. The only current North South connection is HS1 at St Pancras and Eurostar but one still has to change trains and maybe buy something. Even HS2 will be a subsurface Station between Euston and St Pancras.
@@tonys1636 Yes, I heard there was a train service to St Pancras Shopping Centre 😃
I have been asking myself this for decades. I live in Berlin now and we have mainline tracks north-south and east-west. They carry "regional expresses" much like the Lizzie line and proper main line ICEs, meaning that you can do the equivalent of getting a train from Bristol through to Liverpool Street. When crossrail was first announced, I was amazed that this wasn't considered. Yes it would have increased the cost, needing additional platforms at some stations and passing loops at others, but the benefits would have been enormous
I'm surprised Jago didn't mention that this plan would have also doomed Liverpool Street. At the time, BR's consultants were probably thinking of building another Euston Station, with a money-spinning office block over it.
@@pacificostudios That's what's being planned now, and getting all the John Betjeman types in a tizzy.
@@caw25sha - I've heard that. But in the 1970s, it would have been possible to flatten Liverpool Street without a thought. London Euston is kind of like New York's Penn Station.
Thanks!
“every one of them is worth a video itself”
well then, you know what to do! you tease us but will spoil us eventually 😎
Perhaps we can only be thankful for the impecunious state of Britain's economy in 1974, otherwise we may yet have had Covent Garden Grand Central, with the interchange below being opportunistically smothered by the Brutalist development some were itching to dump there.
Is it just me or does the rail map look like a cross? Is that where ❌Crossrail got its original name?
🤔
the southern line curves away from the lines out of london bridge to meet them again at right angles at new cross gate. they'd do that to tunnel onto lewisham.
The map shows it following the route of the Bricklayers Arms (freight only) line, south of London Bridge, which was still in operation when the report was written.
I rather doubt that they would have built an even longer tunnel, all the way back to the Brighton & Southeastern main lines, when there was already a working railway on the surface at the time.
There wouldn't be a need to actually demolish the Market Building at Covent Garden. Especially when one could convert the building into a Station and build the Platforms Underground.
It would also mean that the inadequacies of Covent Garden Tube Station could finally be addressed.
The Ludgate/Blackfriars/Holborn blob leaves me wondering if it could have ended up as much of a mess as Chatelet-Les Halles over in Paris.
It is interesting that the proposals didn't include a link to Heathrow, and that it is not obvious how an upgrade to connect to Docklands would have worked. There would also have needed to be an upgrade to connect with Eurostar services. I'd suggest that we are far better off with what we ultimately got.
A Victoria-Charring Cross-Bank-London Bridge Crossrail Line wouldn't be such a bad idea to be honest.
The "Southern Line" appears to resurface at the Bricklayers Arms Goods Depot and re-use its branch back to the Brighton & South-eastern main lines.
Does the 1974 report go into any detail on this?
Given the various hoo-hah's about knocking down St Pancras, rebuilding Liverpool Street, probably all driven by the pigs-ear they made of Euston, I could see that "a fuss" might have been made about knocking down Covent Garden. So I think it possible that the above ground area could have been turned into an entrance way for a largely under ground stop on these lines had they gone ahead. Where theres a will etc, etc. You might still have got the London Transport museum and who knows, it might have been doing more business.
The freight thing has peaked my curiosity though. Moving people around with accessibility et al has obviously been at the heart of London Terminii and the Underground. You've covered one or two cases where freight was actually move around on Underground lines but there must be another history of goods - yards, through routes and so on. Where does the freight go these days - there still is some. 50 odd years ago (pre-tunnel) I came across a French (SNCF) parcel van at Oxford station. How did that get there?
As a later Crossrail scheme (again not the one actually built) had Reading and Aylsebury as the western termini and only a line through London Bridge I don't think Abbey Road and Heathrow were anywhere near being on the list.
If it had gone to Abbey Road they'd have called it ZebraCrossingRail.
A rail study is just train spotting that costs money
Time for the Philip Line to be built Brentford to Thamesmead.
Covent Garden could have been repurposed as a Station rather than Demolished.
Maybe, but I doubt BR would have.
@@stephenlee5929maybe not with enough pressure from historical preservationists…
it’s rife for just that: plenty of space for passengers, retail, platforms, and is already a landmark
@@bostonrailfan2427 Given the level of vandalism BR inflicted on Euston Station only 11 years earlier against massive public outcry, I think BR were quite capable of further damage.
Like Battlestar Galactica 1980, best forgotten
So did they protect both routes, and if so is the southern route still mostly available?
The Charles line ??
at the rate things are going, it’s going to be the William Line
@@bostonrailfan2427 More like the George Line.
@ …good point
4th - thought i was 3rd
Hooray!
What would this mean for the west end
👍🏻🇬🇧👀...
I remember Crossrail in 1974. People were VERY cross about British Rail in 1974. Not me though, I could go to London for 50p each way by saying to the Station guys that I had come from the previous station and handing them a shiny 50p piece. They never smiled though.
That route would be duplicate too much exciting cir le line. Marble arch, Canonstreet little pointless. Souther route little use for southern london as more bakerloo, northern or Victoria line would be, Both routes have cross platform exchange ?
"Reflect from your shadow."
What meaningless drivel is this?
micky hazard?
2nd
1st?
Seven words or more for the algorithm. Slava Ukraine ! 🇺🇦
And that comment is relevant to the subject of the video how, exactly?
Whato
Oh come Jago. Elizabeth and Southern? You can do better than that. How about Elizabeth and Philip? Then other new lines could have been called Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward. Mmm; perhaps not Andrew now.
Each of your content is a masterpiece! Keep inspiring us with your creations!😇🐕🦬