The Overwatch DENIAL is Reaching RECORD LEVELS
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- Опубліковано 29 кві 2024
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Shadin
#Overwatch - Ігри
him playing orisa in the background gameplay is really the cherry on top. "Yea guys 5v5 is fun! Cmon! Come play the braindead "I never die with the push of one button" tank with me! Let's all just perma mirror matchup!"
wouldnt survive a day on rein/zarya mirror match up on kings row
He is a moira main i cant take this seriously :/
@@galactical5006 He would get so stomped in a Rein mirror. His POV: Minds games?!?! But my brain is smooth like butter
@@AC130ow I bet he would have loved original Brigg
@@arcanaido6415 i bet he would have asked for original brig to be buffed because she doesnt give auto value you still have to click and press buttons
When Overwatch 1 came out, Kaplan and some others flatout mentioned that they TRIED to test the game with 5v5, 4v4 and even 7v7 and 8v8. They arrived at the conclusion that only 6v6 worked correctly without it being broken or too chaotic.
We have known 5v5 doesn't work literally since the launch of Overwatch 1, the fact Blizzard themselves and content creators with hypersmooth brains now say otherwise despite the increasingly large mountain of evidence to the contrary is just sad at this point.
The fact they keep saying THE EXACT SAME ALREADY DISPROVEN ARGUMENTS is all you need to know about how bad this whole thing is.
I REMEMBER THIS
Yea he also wanted the game to never add more heros, so if jeff trully had his way not only woukd we first of all not have overwatch and instead we would have a pve game but if they at least got past that problem, than we would literally have no more new heros and maybe that is the right way to go for a competitive game but he also didnt care much for competitive and even said his focus is on the more casual side and he was also against putting rewards in ranked since he thought the only initiative you should have for ranked is to play ranked, so things have changed from his vision, regardless of what you think of his ideas, most were overlooked in favour of giving players more content, and he also play tested it in open queue wherw you didnt require 2 players to play tank.
Im sure if he had made it role lock from the start, his opinions woukd be much different, so you cant really take this as gospel when his vision for the game was wildly different from role queue.
He also said his games easy to balance becauee he can add heros to counter other heros and showed sombra as an example, and if you go back and read the comments on that video its hilarious how hard he got dunked on for how terrible his balance was 😂
Yall gotta stop taking what that guy says so seriously, and take it with a pound of salt.
post it. because i remember the only thing jeff kaplan ever saying about the format is that the dev team tried 1-4-1 and -1-3-2 and came to find that 1-3-2 was the most fun for them during playtests but they settled on 2-2-2 because of the large change in game format. absolutely nothing to do with balance or unplayability. we have never known 5v5 would work or wouldnt work because the game was not released at the time. and its funny you site that as the reasoning because overwatch was literally too chaotic and was unbalanced as hell for a large period of its lifespan. before role lock and after it as well. all role lock did was remove cool off meta comps, 1-3-2 being a big one that worked very well into goats. do people forget how cool it was watching owl and seeing a 1-3-2 comp into goats? that was peak overwatch. then they changed that. then they dropped the game with the worst update known to man. and now, they could finally make a big enough change in the game to introduce 1-2-2 instead of 1-3-2. and in came 5v5, which would have been amazing, but they instead missed the mark with orisa, and the game was doomed from that exact point. the second they chose to not nerf orisa to the floor or outright change her entirely. if that tank was not in 5v5 as she is now, the game would be absolutely amazing and tanking would be an absolute joy. all counterswapping, comes down to orisa being in the game. now mauga too.
you are insane if you think that there is no viable argument for 5v5 when the actual only argument being used for 6v6 is "tank synergy" that is the actual only argument and arguing for 6v6 is just ignoring the issues the game has. so, imagine we go back to 6v6 but orisa remains as she is. the game is still unplayable because every comp would be orisa and mauga. literally. nothing beats that combo. literally nothing will beat orisa and mauga.
@@kregman6928
More arguments:
The game isn’t just which tank dies faster
One Tank doesn’t need to take all cc
Supports don’t need to be more overpowered to survive
Tank buster character matter more without being op
Sniper characters also aren’t as overpowered since there’s another tank to hide behind.
But “Tank synergies” is the *only* argument?
@@destroyerofworlds4663 the game in 6v6 was still which tanks die faster. this game isnt even that, its which support dies faster. kill supports, fight ends. thats just a bad argument.
one tank usually took all the cc anyways and there was more cc overall in 6v6 because characters had multiple hard cc abilities and 6 characters per team. this is also a non point.
supports were overpowered in 6v6. in fact, supports are the exact role that ruined it and they had to be strong in 6v6 because there was potentially 4 characters running just at them every single game. also a dead point.
are we saying reaper, bastion and widow are op? thats actually just a crazy statement. snipers work on very specific maps or if youre cracked at them. thats it. they arent meta defining or dominating and the tanks in the game currently can deal with them. this is also just a non point.
the problem is all these arguments youre making for 6v6 are issues in both games. youre just misremembering how the game was. double sniper was an absolutely dominant comp in OWL with role queue. to the point that the games were terribly boring to watch. just like goats.
you cant just ignore the problems 6v6 clearly had and say "5v5 is impossible and the game is terrible because of these things" and then list a bunch of things that were problems in 6v6 too. if you can point to real issues 5v5 has and if there is no possible way to fix those issues, then I can agree we go back to 6v6. I prefer 6v6 myself and that is exclusively because I liked crazy comps and tank synergies. but I love 5v5 just as much. solo tanking is the best feeling you can have when the games go well (when there is no orisa or mauga in the match).
the problem is that youre just spewing samito talking points. which all revolve around not fixing anything and just reverting the game. the devs clearly dont want to go back to 6v6. the devs are also clearly trying to fix this game with actual passion. so instead of crying over a bunch of nothing, use the brainpower to attack actual issues the game has and come up with ways to fix it. the best place to start is to rework both orisa and mauga. not big ones. just small kit changes. that already solves counterswapping. that alone, solves counterswapping.
The whole vid was this guy saying "If we just make 5v5 better, 5v5 will be good 👍"
Pretty much
6v6 is the correct awnser without a shadow of doubt
100% let’s be real!
I'd say it's an answer I don't think either is the correct answer
Some people like faster paced 5v5 with beefed up tanks
Others like 6v6 with more decisions making and combo potential
People are allowed to like 5v5 I don't think we should hate on em for it
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 there is no hate towards people that prefer 5v5, if you truly care about the game and want it to thrive you'd probably prefer 6v6 and be real. counter watch is unsolvable
@@subcorpianwest5658 not unsolvable but the solution isn't good either
I do agree but some people don't care about a games longevity
Cod players will buy the new cod every November and don't care if the old game thrives
Some people just hop to whatever new game releases each year but for the few that do care this much about overwatch I do hope it lasts and that the game can be made into a state that the majority approves of
The only thing I hope doesn't happen is that tanks become worse to accommodate a second one
I like the new heros and how they feel and I don't want new ones to be designed like old ow tank that are so easy to counter because they have built in design flaw that are made to be fixed by a completely different character because then you end up with the match your playing rein and because your tanks a hog one trick you can't do as much because rein by himself can't really make plays or go in without the support of another tank which sucks when playing him
Don't get me wrong rein zarya was fun but when that was one of the only ways it worked it kinda sucked
And sigma and orisa making double shield a thing was annoying but if you nerf the Shields then whenever one was played without the other they kinda sucked
The only thing I like about ow2 and 5v5 is that each tank is balanced individually instead of getting nerfed to account for a tank combos
Like how dps would get their damage nerfed because if they had a mercy pocket it sucked to deal with but then why are they balancing everyone else around the beam instead of just changing the beam
As Simito said, you have fewer options now; it feels like the devs want you to do only one thing, and they think it's fine that way for some reason. As a player who loved flanking the backline from time to time, this option is out of the question now. I used to do funny things when I was bored, but now I can't even do anything; it's so boring to play. I feel like each update since OW2 came out is trying to limit the fun out of the heroes. For example, Lucio can't boop tanks anymore (I have no idea why they changed it; nobody asked for this change, and I've never heard anyone complain about Lucio's boop). Removing Hog's one-shot hook was unnecessary (Hog just needed some adjustments in OW1, but now he's unbalanced). Adding cooldown to Ball's Grappler is another example (all my new friends from OW1 who were trying Overwatch for the first time had so much fun with Ball, and with time, they got hooked into the game; I really felt that Ball is the gateway to introduce OW to new players), this is just a small examples. In the end, OW1 was way fun to play than OW2 and that's all that matters to me. Anyway, I don't play Overwatch anymore, but this was my experience as a player who enjoyed the game for more than 3 years.
Did we really expect a horse player to have a good take ?
Woah woah woah buddy. Slow your roll. Thats way too many words in a sentence for the average Orisa main smh
😂😂😂😂😂😂@@OniLifes
the guy spent the whole video saying "we just need to like make 5v5 balanced mkay, and we need to do that like by making 5v5 balanced mkay, if we just make 5v5 balanced it'll solve balance mkay."
@@logic1093 this is half of the ow2 community, this is why everyone calls them idiots... rightfully mind you LMAO
@@logic1093 add to that some variation of the "nerf/delete sombra/junkrat/moira/symmetra/pharah" or whatever other hero egotistical and delusional gold players are having a struggle with recently
5v5 is team deathmatch
6v6 is actual overwatch
team deathmatch is only really fun for DPS players, who blizzard are trying to appeal to (majority of FPS gamers)
@@matthewbrears2129 no in ow2 it's only fun for the heros that are meta for the season. That's why the queue times swing so widely between the roles for each season when the different roles are strong.
@@metal100k straight facts
Either way its still owned by blizzard. And there will be idiots Bible thumping for either version like they know everything. Its a garbage take.
Well said I couldn’t agree more .
“5v5 is good”
>Orisa
+ mauga I'll disagree with sam ngl I think mauga is just a badly designed character, but he would be better in 6v6
6v6 only needed one competent October 2020 balance patch during a 3 year dev drought, to prove it had undeniable potential to be amazing.
5v5 has now spent 2 years with 24/7 dev time and balancing and constant patches and hero reworks and its still fucking shit despite all that.
I rest my case.
Not to disagree with your point
I'm just adding that overwatch1 had a lot more time with development and hero reworks from it's beginning in 2016 to 2020 when it hit it's content drought so it had around 4 years to get itself up and running with balance and reworks to make the game feel better and going through a ton of changes with role lock as well
I feel like it's a little but unfair to judge the two when ow1 had more time to bake and get it's act together where as ow2 is going through the same thing with a big change and is still trying to get a foothold since some of the season weren't all that bad they just haven't found a sweet spot to coast on yet like ow1 had.
Don't get me wrong it ain't perfect by any means but I feel like it needs a bit more time before we can properly judge the game
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 lets say ow1 stopped getting full care for ow2 after the announcement of ow2 being developed and made, they have been developing ow2 for 4 years (if we're counting the time right after the announcement). that's the same amount of time ow1 (after launch) has been actively cared for by the dev team, and i'd argue the devs are more active now than ever before.
5v5 could be viable if the dev team actively decided to play their game and into their balance patches.
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 I get your point, but I don't think the amount of time and patches really matter in context, when overwatch came out it was a new concept in the market, it had to solidify it's uniqueness with little to no other examples in the market, so needing a couple years before reaching a "peak state" is understandable. On the other hand, ow 2 is not a new concept, the hero shooter genre is now much more solidified, blizzard has access to other game's data and even overwatch data, and I say that it's enough data to under that 1: overwatch is not like the other hero shooters, and 2: that overwatch had a solid format for almost a decade, if after two years they can't find a way to make 5v5 better even though they're trying concepts from other games, I'm sorry but imo that just means that this isn't meant for overwatch, and there's nothing wrong with that, what blizzard shouldn't be doing is actively deny people's wishes and refuse to at least give them the options.
6v6 really looks like it's more healthy for overwatch and it's playerbase, and I say that as a paladins player, the only reason I wasn't bothered being the only tank in overwatch is because I'm used to it when playing paladins, but just because it works in paladins and other games doesn't mean it can work for overwatch too
@@mundaneglue8734 Fair point
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 OW1 also started out from scratch, OW2 did not. Release 2016 OW was a broken mess, but it was fun because nobody knew how to play the game and minmax anything.
OW2 did not start from scratch, it had the entire framework of OW1 to build off of, years and years of balancing and testing and data, years of content already made, plus OW2 was in production since 2019 (albeit a lot of that was spent on PVE and not just dev work/balancing of the PVP side, but still).
I'm sorry but I'm not giving this game more time. If a game can't succeed in even just matching its prequel within a 2 year span, I'm sorry but that shit's gone dude. That's the fucking problem of live service models, everyone can always keep saying "just give it a bit more time to cook, it may become good enough eventually". No. It has proven it is not capable of doing great. It had an amazing formula and template to build off of from OW1, yet almost every single aspect of OW2 is a direct downgrade, and 2 years worth of constant balancing like we've never seen before, still isn't enough to even bring it back to EoL version of OW1.
I'm not sitting around and waiting another 2 years just to sit in this exact same situation and say "it's only been 4 years, it still has time to mature and prove itself". Fuck that. 5v5 is objectively the cause for the majority of the issues people complain about in OW2. Literally. You can academically study the ripple effects caused by the lack of one tank. One thing is to keep trying to open a closed door, but OW2 is actively slamming its head against a wall trying to break through it where no door exists.
Quitting OW2 was the best thing I ever did honestly. It really is just simple, 5v5 isn't better than 6v6 and I won't play the game until 6v6 is returned. If it ever did come back I'll go back to playing tank too.
Also why do the 5v5ers always bring up nostalgia and rose tinted glasses every time lmao. This wasn't 10+ years ago. This was TWO years ago.
Im in the same boat and have been trying to get people to try other games. Good on ya m8
Same here. Unless literally all my friends are on to play with meI never play anymore. It’s just such a watered down, miserable experience. Unfortunately yes I am a tank main so I’m biased, but even when I play other roles it just feels so much worse than it did back then
Literally just picked up tekken 8 as my first fighting game and it’s the best decision I’ve ever made no more idiots to deal with I can just have fun by myself💀
What are you guys playing then?
Give a mental check for anyone defending 5v5
Lobotomy maxxed
Give a mental check for anyone still playing this game
Yet you're watching videos and commenting on the game. Move along.
Give a mental check for anyone thinking 6v6 would "Fix" the game. It might solve some issues for some people, but it fixes nothing
@@lash3873what does this even mean?
5v5 defenders are like flat earth believers. BRING BACK 6v6
6v6 defenders are the flat earthers lol
@@MrGrreatness -5v5 defender
@@MrGrreatness reply to another 10 comments
Ironic the guy calls himself “mrgreatness” when his whole mindset of keeping 5v5 would just lead to despair and disappointment
@@n3bulav876 he reminds of people who defend capitalism yet own no capital
I find it funny people are ok with one person tanking by themselves but if you ask someone to solo support/solo dps then they'll give you a quick hell no.
and those people don't even have the responsibility of being on the frontline and dealing with upfront aggro xD
Once again tanks have to deadlift everyone.
I used to love solo healing as Ana before role queue. I just say “Just give me a babysitter for when they inevitably dive me”
I’d have some nutty stats in those games
tank takes up the big space!!! more large character model! TANK ORLE BIG!!! LESS TQANK EQUAL BODY MASS OF TWO DPS, SAME THING !!!!
Making all tanks fit the "brawl" design, causes a logjam of design features.
With 2 tanks I could run rein zarya or rein dva. Both have benefits/strengths and weaknesses.
5v5 is limiting design of new heroes in tank role and making the power creep unstoppable
Took 48 seconds for Sam to bring to October 2020. New record!
Facts be facts!
His problem is the pace of the game, jet, he plays horse against a Doom on Defense. Give me a Break.
Am I the only one that thinks* OW2 has never felt better than OW1?
I feel like sometimes I must have been playing a different game. I never felt the awful balance in OW1.
Biggest frustrations for me as a high gold/low plat was:
- leavers
- lack of game development (maps/skins)
- new tanks
Exactly
I remember being not excited for OW2 back in 2022, and it was less fun from day 1.
In OW1 I never felt the need to leave a game. OW2 it's like every other game
@@raffyarceus99 I'm glad I'm not the only one
@@TV-vz7rfI felt exactly the same!
I thought I was alone in thinking that 5v5 killed ow. I play ow 2 everyday and I have never been more miserable, even when I played cod for ten years straight for waw to bo3.
Bro I wont lie, I stopped playing OW2 and made my league addiction worse. Like Im sorry but when im having more fun in LEAGUE OF LEGENDS than OW. We have issues, many, many issues
I mean honestly from waw to bo3 was solid games minus AW and Ghosts.
@@riptose9252 woah woah woah I cannot accept ghost slander. That game was a mindless fun time. And coming hot off the LEGENDARY Bo2. It was fine. Like seriously I could play Michael Myers, as Michael Myers? Shit was peak
If your miserable then quit, no one in forcing you to play.
@@OniLifes Idk man I wasn't the game for me, but that's just me tho. I do remember the Juggernaut Maniac being fun tho and of course bo2 is the undisputed GOAT!
The thing that frustrates me is that they wont even try it. They have dug in and are seemingly not going to budge, maybe because if they do got back to 6v6 it would be an admittance to OW2 being a complete failure.
they wont because blizzard has a huge ego. same thing happened when they said that no one will play wow classic. very out of touch with their playerbase
They will while wearing clown makeup, because Ow2 already became a failure when the PvE was cancelled
Side note. Do people not realize that by buffing the super tank's damage that you inherently make things worse for everything that isn't a tank? Supports dont like super tanks running at them since the tanks only real goal now is to run at backlines/ hold space til they can run at a backline.
Not only is that true but it also makes counter swaps stronger so still no one is happy
Half these kids never even played Oct 2020 Overwatch patch
I still don’t get the mindset of how 5v5 is the “way we should be doing it”. Overwatch was originally designed as a 6v6 shooter, to remove 1 member of a team is a change that should never have happened in the first place. And because they have to make 1 tank work for 2, there were all these unnecessary changes that they would never have even had to make if they just kept it the same. And it also removes the fun of the 2 tanks that it originally brought in ow1, every time a new tank comes out I’m happy as a tank player, but I’m also sad at the same time knowing that there’s no real way to test their synergy with other tanks without going into arcade which is a stupid way anyways, cause having the 2 tanks in that means sacrificing a support or damage. And in response to everyone doing 2 or more tanks in arcade, they nerfed the health of them. And my friend group, there’s 3 of us who play support, at least 2 or 3 that play damage and 2 of us (myself included) play tank, so when we play we simply play arcade just so we can have the 2 tank experience, forcing us into matches where it can still be miserable. No amount of fixing tanks in this format will ever make me happy, and the fact that Rein is basically redundant in 5v5 cause he was originally designed in the 6v6 format means they just can’t tune him correctly and I feel like every hero on whatever role should have a use. Should’ve just kept it the way it was, and they have the nerve to say it’s better. And like I said at the start, it’s not even just for practical use, it’s because my friend group is locked behind this idiotic change of forcing us into another role we don’t really want to play. If you’re in a similar situation where 2 people in your group you play with are tank players, I guarantee they’re not too happy with being forced onto a different role they either aren’t too keen on or don’t play very much
Either dumb smoothbrains or Blizzard shills that worship what they do so Blizzard keeps giving them free stuff since people like Stylosa confirmed that Blizzard does indeed give stuff like battle passes for free to them.
It's not a difficult concept. There was not enough dedicated tank players to sustain 6v6, and Tank synergy held tank balance hostage making tanks not fun to play if they weren't played in a combo that executed together. That can't be hard to understand.
@@MrGrreatness not enough dedicated tank players? That hardly justifies the changes besides there’s barely enough tank players right now in Overwatch 2 anyways so that argument doesn’t hold anything, also the game was originally designed as 6v6, that change was not for any good reason other than “make it different for the sequel” and it didn’t work
@@MrGrreatness After hundred of hours on tank in ow1 I can say with full confidence that ow2 is nowhere as fun to play as ow1 was. It's a pain in the ass. You can't play tank you want because of rock-paper-scissors gameplay. You didn't need meta synergies to play the game and have fun but now? If you don't play meta the game is simply unplayable. You probably don't play tank and if you do you're most likely some filthy orisa player.
@@MrGrreatness Yeah, not enough dedicated tank players in a game with MILLIONS OF PLAYERS.
People like you legit have no brain.
I support never letting the 6v6 argument die. This is more than just a debate about format. This is about making a company that's treated its community like garbage admit they are wrong and putting power back into the hands of the public, because even though without Blizzard we wouldn't have overwatch, without us there is no reason to create a video game in the first place, especially Overwatch 2 after they failed their first attempt. We are the foundation and it should be EASY to deliver us what we ask for. A quick play game mode to test 6v6? Not even being allowed to ask the devs during interviews about 6v6? You're a multibillion dollar company and you can't hire someone to research what your public is asking for or come to any conclusions at all? But y'all made it 5v5 when nobody asked for it....People invest their lives into gaming these days, into Overwatch 2, and y'all think it's just a game. The moment another company makes a game with just as cool characters, art theme and a similar gameplay loop to the original Overwatch, GOODBYE Overwatch and let the door hit you on the way out.
From 10:50 - 12:30 it just sounds like he's saying 5v5 is the issue because he basically just described what 5v5 does that kills the tank role all together.
Basically he destroyed his own opinion and argument for 5v5.😅
No hate for the guy, but that video has to be bait.
Nah, bro deserves any hate he gets
Playing orisa and defending 5v5 is crazy combo
Ikr, same thing as saying "the ship can't be sinking, my side just rose 50 feet!"
Yeah no shit the orisa player likes 5v5, bc shes broken in this format w her new design. The guy is so ignorant
I’ve never understood the argument of queue times. Throughout OW2 the support role has been the most dominant role through the most seasons. In many seasons the higher you climbed on support the longer ur queues were. How many CC and suooort streamers would sit in a 30+ min queue while tank and dps were instant. Surprise when you have a broken OP role ppl would rather play it over the other two weaker roles. Both 5v5 and 6v6 have had queue time issues but they were caused by different things OW1 issues where the game was just left to rot where OW2 issues are caused by poor developer updates and atrocious format changes. The only argument ppl have involving queue times just don’t make sense bc both experience issues. The only leg the 5v5 community can stand on is wobbly as fuck 😂
Ur buddy freedo loves to do that gaslighting thing quite a bit 😂
TRRUUUUEEEE
I've never been very high rank, i maxxed out at like diamond but I'm usually around gold/plat (i don't care about my rank too much i just play with my friends) During the whole time i played ow1, no one cared about meta strategies in low elo because no one was good or coordinated enough to pull them off. In ow2 this isn't the case because the meta strategy is is just to switch tanks to win, because the tank has so much impact when it's a solo tank no matter how you balance the game, so just winning the tank exchange can often win you the fight.
I don't know who's arguing that 5v5 is more enjoyable for low elo. It was way more fun in ow1 when we could just play our main and win if we played well because no one was counter-swapping. It also felt a lot less stale because you would see much more varied matchups
I was once told that 6v6 was bad "because you always had a Hog 1 trick on your team".
Back then, EVEN IN HAVANA, you could try and compensate for that as the second tank.
Now, if you have a hog one trick on that map, you lost the game before it even starts.
But that's somehow an argument on how 5v5 is better???
Even then if the hog player was good it was fine, look at cyx videos during overwatch 1 the dude was farming squishies all the time.
@@lukeaustin4465 exactly, nowadays, if you have a hog one trick on those maps, it's a guaranteed loss.
I just met someone who played OW since 2016. Kind of bittersweet, because we both fell out of love for the game and just basically went with, “yea, it is so different now..”
I started playing OW on the last season of OW before it became OW2 so I’ve played way more 5v5 than 6v6 and even I can tell the difference and how one sided matches are now. You either get steam rolled or vice versa. There’s not an in between, you can stall as much as you want but not having a second tank adds too much pressure to an already stressful role to play . I wish they tried it for a season and get feedback to either fix 5v5( which would take more time) or change the format on a season to season basis.
I gave ow1 one last hoorah before the release of ow2 knowing that the big change of 2 tanks to 1 tank would really affect me the most, I made the most of having a fellow tank on the same team, most fun I had in a long time. I seriously doubt blizzard actually listens to their fans, not just this change but killing the pve, making the ridiculous pricing issues. And when it comes to the 5v5 change they have their heads buried in the ground on it, it’s not even Overwatch anymore, it’s “Generic hero shooter with 5v5” “Jokerwatch” is what I’ve been calling it
See they will never do that because Team 4 has never been able to walk any game changing decisions back. They simply refuse to admit that they were wrong. They left this game to rot for 2 years to work on something that will never see the light of day. They killed this whole franchise for the sake of monetary gain. No matter what they do they will never let you try 6v6 again because they know too many people would love it more than the garbage that is on the live servers now. And they would have to admit that they were wrong in going to 5v5 which will never happen.
wait you bought overwatch 1 on the last season?
@@megamecha100 yeah, it was a pack that included some skins and first ow2 battlepass I think
What I don't get is this. The main reason why 2CP maps got axed was that they put too much responsibility on the tanks, they needed to play it perfectly, to borrow Flats' words: "Back on 2CP the tanks needed to extend a red carpet to allow everyone else to get to the point". So now every game feels like 2CP, the tank is the single most important character, and can only be killed by an entire team because even other tanks unless they counter the other perfectly have a really hard time confirming the kill.
They know 5v5 is a shit. They just want to convince you that blizzard wasnt wrong. And blizzard will never admit that 5 v 5 is a failure. It is main rule of any corporation - NEVER admit your mistakes.
There are also silencing people, they are scared of their new Microsoft overlords seeing this and making them change it back.
Its interesting that NONE of these 5v5 meatriders wasn’t complaining about 6v6 all those years until now. They’ll accept 2v2 overwatch if it ever comes to that
First min dudes playing orisa. 0 credibility f em
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
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Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
Jeff Kaplan!
How's it going? I'm Jeff!
I gave up on his point of view immediately upon seeing him on Orisa 💀
Imagine being me, who first installed Overwatch 2 in 2023 not knowing this lore or playing the first one ever. I’ve already managed to climb and have 3,000 ranked wins and am so thankful for these classes, because they really are classes to study their shitty business decisions. So, coming from an absolute noob in masters, thank you for this information. You make it easy for new players to understand how afraid the devs are of Blizzard. I also want my Legacy Gold Gun currency, it’s locked right now at 2900, that’s like 119 ranked games I can’t use for a beautiful new Peacekeeper…It’s hilarious to me that I’m just now starting my OW journey and you guys are like WW2 vets.
I tuned out when he said there are no off tanks anymore meanwhile roadhog over there still damn near the same, zarya got 1 bubble, DVA is 1 DM time nerf away from off tank status, junkerqueen is the very definition of an off tank >.>
You are still the main tank on these characters. You tank the majority of cooldowns from the enemy. For example Roadhog used to be playable in a variety of off meta comps, now if they have an Ana and you don't have a kiri it's legitimately a 0% win probability. Dva is useless the second the enemy team has a zar, in ow1 you could still have value contesting high ground and ignore Zarya, now you are just throwing if you don't swap. These characters are fundamentally still playing main tank, but you are correct in that they are built like off tanks, which is why they are throws the second the enemy counters them
@@geffern Um not sure what your comment is trying to say. They are main tank because they are the only tank? Water is also wet as well. Hog taking every bullet and CD on the chin in OW1 doesnt make him the main tank but a walking target as he is in OW2
@@aerostrafe1075 I mean ik you're mocking but if you are the only tank you are indeed the main tank by default. How can offtank exist with a single tank?
However, my point is that the offtank role doesn't manafest in a meaningful way anymore, despite there being tanks built like dps (what you think offtank means). You can't get value outside of the tank duel, which was the role that maintank filled before. Offtank is meant to be a flexable role used to synergize ults with the main tank, peel, and counter the dps. If you are forced to spend the majority of your time dealing with the enemy tank then you are main tank; and that is the philosophy the dev team has brought to the tank role now by making previously niche characters into these brawly all rounders.
This is a real problem and shows the Dichotomy of the modern gamer, that doesn't want to think critically and think they are smart, Blizzard knows ppl arent smart enough to challenge their obvious suicide of a AAA- game, hence why they keep giving us sprinkles of something that might look like "balance"
The reality is Blizzard has been trying to kill the game for core fans of 2016-2021 OW and make a Plastic, Toxic, Inorganic environment that is counter-meta, braindead Widowmakers/Hanzo every game and Flashpoint maps mixed with a lil of everything else you should Hate.
People who complain about 6V6 because of Double shield would be like if after Supports were broken in Season 7-8 in OW2 and they decided to cut down the role to 1 support to make up for it. Balance ur shit and make it fun and people will play it.
I love too how Blizzard brings in "Wide Range" groups which completely ruined the queue time argument.
Nothing more Blizzard than making new problems to not fix.
One of my friend was a support main in OW1 and when OW2 came out the queue time were horrible so he decided to become a tank main. He's now a Orisa main since 4 or 5 seasons and constantly when he kills the enemy tank once they switch to Zarya. He can't even play the character he wants to without being counter picked. This is getting really annoying.
I think an issue that doesn’t get brought up that often is that because of counterwatch, a tank player has to be able to play multiple tanks to somewhat have a chance at succeeding in a role. This is a stark contrast with supports and dps who probably at worst need to learn only 2 heroes of their role to be successful.
I love how in the early days of OW2 everyone (including people on the Group Up podcast) were shitting on the idea that "counter-watch" was a problem and kept saying 5v5 wasn't the problem. Here we are, almost 1.5 years later and now all the "haters" have vindication.
I feel like the queue time argument has a flaw nobody seems to bring up. Damage had more heroes than tank and support together during 6v6 .from a casual standpoint most people don’t care about the role but about the heroes and if you don’t like the the very few tanks or supports we had at the time why play it. Now that we’re actually getting more tanks and supports I don’t think the queues would be anywhere close to as bad as the 5v5 crowd think
All of my tank friends either quit the game or are playing other roles now
i love that the guy in the vid talks about balancing fixing 5v5 and counterwatch but then also proceeds to say that in 6v6 the existence of the offtank makes counterwatch better...
Have two tanks with each separate roles, have one tank with barriers like Reinhardt or Sigma as the defense tank, while the other tank that has other offense abilites like Roadhog and Zarya as offense tanks/off-tanks.
It's almost like majority of the hero roster was designed for open queue. Where one person could easily swap to a hero across the roles to help their team counter the enemy.
You would have to rework WAY MORE than just the Tanks to make 5v5 work.
Legend has it, Team 4 is still debating Genji's ledge dash.
Keep these pro 5v5 youtubers coming. Samito just solos with no difficulty at all.
I won't give them my tank q time until I can play off-tank again with my main tank duo
bro same i miss being off-tank so much
"OW2 went into the gutter, it's trash, not playable. That may be true". And then he goes on to defend 5v5. :)
Sometimes I want to play tank but then I just think about how much effort it is and I just go play a different game like Elden Ring instead so I can just relax. There's no such thing as a casual game of tank in overwatch anymore.
"play a game like elden ring so i can relax" 💀
In the majority, it seems like non tank players have hot takes that can cook my breakfast eggs. Ps, im starting to q for tank again and my qs is instant, while my dps times can average 3-8 mins. Im going to do healer q and probably gonna land in diamond again, even though ive not played healer ever. Predicting that the healer q is going to be longer than the dps q.
Annnn youre right sam, no one wants no aim no brain symm and armor pak torb. Everyone wants the ow they left behind before they came up with the store front update.
I want turret upgrade Torb
I don't even like Overwatch, but hell, there's a reason why in TF2 the two biggest competitive formats are Highlander (9v9, one of each class) and 6's (6v6, no shit), with Prolander kicking around as a 7v7 gamemode. And that's in a game with less variables. You don't got abilities that just completely remove a person from a fight. Most you got is a massive burst of damage if every power class nails you at the same time...Or a sniper headshot
a concept like 'asymmetry in power distribution creates infinite balance cycle' in competitive game design is either historically backed thus referenceable or following forward soon™ will be
They deleted the game that I paid for and replaced it with shit. That being said Im not buying anything on this game until they restore the game to 6v6. Give me back my OW1 vibes
On the whole "Unskillful heroes countering skillful ones" I remember years ago when I just wanted to chill, play some Zen and after getting to the front line there'd always be Either Genji or Tracer focusing me down (I also played both DPS as well and it is NOT hard to down a Zen with them if he doesn't get peeled for) So yeah.. I swapped to Brig or Moira and forced them off their heroes like they forced me off mine.. and honestly.. COunterwatch is probably what they had envisioned given they gave us the option to swtich to literally ANY hero in the early days.
True but this problem is only exacerbated by the fact there only remains one tank which acts as the anchor in any team. Basically: tank is Dva, tank best one on team, me tell team we counter dva, team go beam characters, team more effective against dva, we get past choke and now hold point, tank no want get countered, tank switch rein, rein beat beam (such as zarya) and the cycle repeats. 6v6 would solve this issue directly. Ofc there were counters in OW1 that’s what made overwatch overwatch, but shifting all the power into tanks makes them the focal point for big cooldowns, counters, and overall just a bad experience
Y'know I don't understand why everyone is complaining, there's a very simple balance fix to make 5v5 way better. Just rework every tank to be like on-release Mauga. Then you can play any tank and carry every game. Don't need unique hero identity cuz queue times are great now! 😁
A good way to try their hand at 6v6 again is to just put the game mode in arcade and add *alternate* forms of the characters to the mode (like with mirrorwatch) over time as they rebalance them for a 6v6 format.
They need to show they are at least trying to listen to the community.
This queue time now is really bad even for average now. Me and my friend (both plat 2, dps and support) always have like 6 mins time in queue between games. In original OW it was like 3x faster
Im enjoying sam break down all these "5v5 is better" videos. All they say is "balance the game better" no shit we been saying this since brig came out 😂. Explain how please cause the devs cant figure it out themselves. I quit ow because its miserable no matter the rank. As a masters player its not even fun in plat lobbies anymore on any role
I never played OW1 and started on OW2. Im a DPS main and the only tank i enjoy playing is Doomfist. I can definitely say that the most fun I’ve had on doom is in open queue when there is another tank.
6v6 is the One Piece, that is the reason the new dev team can't find it. Jeff Goodman said it was real!!! Get out there and find it 🤣🤣
Personally I think its not 5v5 vs 6v6, its more like people who love 5v5 prefer the counter swapping playstyle and 6v6 proponents hate it. I think it is impossible to remove counter swapping from the game in a 5v5 setup without completely overpowering a role or making a role irrelevant but thats just me (which is why i prefer 6v6). You cant balance the game out of this issue (if counter swapping is considered an issue)
I love how these people bring problems of 6v6 when 5v5 brings the same problems but worse.
I was the person who submitted this video to the discord. I was waiting for Sam to tear this video to shreds 😂😂😂
29:33 Sam hard ranting with cheery nintendo music in the background 😂
The fundamental problem is that there is 1 tank and 2 of the other roles. So what if we remove one suport and dps so the game would be 3v3. And blizz could rebrand the game to overwatch 3 and make alot of money
The only format argument should be: Do we stick with 5v5 for better queue times at the cost of balance? Or do we switch to 6v6 for balance at the cost of longer queue times.
When we had 6v6 maybe two or three people jokingly suggested to try out 5v5.
Now in 5v5 an undeniably large amount of players, both casuals and pros, unironically want 6v6 back.
i want to see that guy talk about now when horse is put down underground
Maybe the anwser is just put 5v5 and 6v6 QP and Ranked, and just let the players decide what they want to play... If 6v6 queus where lower and the game feel better, it will come out, the same go for 5v5...
I agree with this, it’s hardly difficult to add it as a mode and then everyone’s happy
They cant simply do that because the que times for the 5v5 would be a ghost town and the 6v6 would be instant every time as long as the balance was good. Its the same concept as to why this game could never get a CSGO style map selector. Havana, circuit royal, and select other maps would be non existent meanwhile KR would be and instant que. And these soft ass devs cant handle that something that they made isn't enjoyed as much as something someone else made so they force you to play everything to satisfy the terrible devs that make shit like Havana and all of the other least liked maps and hero's.
good idea but they would have to balance the tanks differently
The fewer the players on the map, the more it will be affected by counters. Like, imagine if it was 1v1 with any of the heroes, some will pretty much 99% of the time win. And the more players you add to a match, the lower that % will be. So 6v6 is just mathematically better than 5v5. (Now, my math is garbage, but it seems logical to me).
About the queue times argument, it's bad lol, I'm a bronze/silver player and even when I soloqueue for support it takes at least 10/15 minutes, not even qp is saved because sometimes I have to wait 5/8 minutes to find a match, and it's very likely it'll be a already ongoing match that someone quit (or disconnected, this has been a constant issue lately) so yeah, the queue times are just getting worse
One thing about 6v6, even it's better in the long run, counter swapping was still in 6v6. You know how many players switched to Hog, Cassidy(Mcree) and Sombra the second I was Ball in 6v6 was insane just as now.
I do feel the non uniqueness that the game has. Ball is a prime example. He was a very good tank and being a off tank and displacement based. And he was so fun to be a off tank but now he isn't viable and even can't kill widow or Hanzo in DPS.
i agree with everything minus “remove grasp or remove shield” on Sigma. Making the shield smaller or have less health, or reducing (slash completely removing) the health given by grasp are way better changes that don’t involving stripping a character of the abilities that give him his identity within the game
Also as a ball player, hes only gotten worse going into OW2. Theres nothing nostalgic about it. Removed slam skip, power stance, double boop, mines damage mitigated, less ult charge, no spin to win... Even after the "rework", the ONLY good thing is the "if you screw up ypur grapple, you can have it back." He is factually worse and definitely less fun to play.
Oh yeah, speaking of, remember when they said they were gonna remove cc and give it only to tanks? Hah. Yeah.
I don’t think format change is the only way to lessen the impact of counterwatch but I do think it would be the easiest. Since to lessen the effect of counterwatch in OW2 you have to change the interaction of abilities. For example in the D.va V zarya example, you could improve D. Va’s match up by making DM shorten the length of beams forcing beam characters to get closer to do their damage but also increasing how close they need to be to d.va and increasing the effectiveness of her micro missiles as a result. (Not saying it should happen but trying to illustrate my thought on the matter of fixing counters that the interactions and effectiveness of the counters would have to change.)
Also dunno if anybody else feels this way but I feel like regardless of format in the vacuum of a 1v1, tank vs dps, a tank should be heavily favored generally.
I like Samito’s takes on 6v6 generally and as someone who used to be leaning hard into pro 5v5 I’ve started to realize there is generally not really much excuse for it to exist this way because it’s costing the tank experience more than it should. And while I don’t think 6v6 is the only answer and is not the answer I prefer I can also acknowledge its merit.
As someone who has Played 6v6 consently with the new tanks, they all work completely fine in 6v6 only a few tanks needed a nerf & no reworking needed. That was just so much cope from 5v5.
As a widow player I’ll say that with 6v6 the counter swap wasn’t as bad, now I have to swap if there’s a counter. I had ways to kill all my counters but now there’s not a chance to before dying most the time, this includes the typical “counters” to widow in ow 1 Winston, tracer, genji, etc. Gotta swap now
This man is playing orisa. Told me everything I needed to know about his opinion up front.
What was the October 2020 patch and how did they fuck it up right after?
The main issue with que times is that Damage just, has more characters than the other categories
Him saying nostalgia is the reason people think 6v6 was good means that it was good. I don’t have nostalgia for COD ghosts but I do for BO2 because one was really fun and good and the other was kinda shit. You don’t have nostalgia for something that wasn’t good so what’s the issue with nostalgia for OW1
i have a few other tank ideas but this is an idea for a rein rework to help his gameplay loop. does this make him OP? am i crazy? seems like it could be fun
Rein- allow him to deploy his shield OPEN and in the spot where he is standing and leave it there. It can be recalled like JQ knife, maybe even giving it some healing like JQ knife if people get hit, that would give him more sustain. This would allow him to be able to swing while still blocking.. the shield gets less health if it is not ON reins body, but when he uses his standard shield it is the regular health amount
Charge rework, its now a self ONLY shout like JQ (you’re telling me the large german man isnt already shouting?) activates the engine on his back, gives a bit of extra ARMOR because he is melee, clears+prevents DPS passive while active, similar uptime/cd to JQ and Mauga, give him a slight speed increase, not as fast as JQ (hes bigger and clunkier), IF ACTIVATED AGAIN, does the OW2 charge but a shorter distance, still has the passive prevention during charge and after if time remains on the ability
Considering I played since the launch of the game in 2016…before the 5v5 change over watch was literally the only game I played and grinded to masters then 5v5 came and i uninstalled countless times cause it just doesn’t feel the same.
Idk why devs are ignoring the 6x6 format so much. Seriously, just add a 6v6 test play for everyone, complete with the list of balances, like they did on April 1st. Allow players to test out 6v6, gather feedback-what's the problem? Are they even trying to listen to the community?
Okay, I had thought about this. What about just simply adding a mode in quick play and competitive for the 6v6 format? It would mean having the best of both worlds, people who wanted it back and people who do prefer the 5v5 format. They add the tank health nerf into the 6v6 format modes in quick play and competitive so they aren’t just unkillable, it would mean both teams have the 2 tanks regardless, and when it would come to releasing new tanks it wouldn’t be so hard to just tune them for both formats surely? 6v6 can come back, 5v5 can stay, people who like either can play either
You would split the player base causing queue times to skyrocket for both modes. Maybe at least initially. Eventually everyone would just play 6v6 anyway lmao
@@t_dappa I’d say not really, because of the people who still like 5v5 still being a good count, and I don’t think queue times would really be that bad, purely cause if it’s there people would definitely try
The decision to go to 5v5 is almost poetic. Increase the workload on the individual and create a scapegoat for when you fail. Seems to mirror Blizzard's internal systems pretty well.
every argument this guy is using is literally anti 5v5 LOL
Samito what do you think about this take? More teammates = more teamwork in order to win and less solo play and counterswapping
Honestly, the only true way to get rid of counter picking is you would have to lock everybody into their heroes throughout the whole game, which would not be fun. This is why 6v6 was better; people could counter pick a tank in a 6v6 environment but your other tank can offset that a little bit.
I hate how 5v5ers only ever bring up the last few seasons of Overwatch 1 to talk about how bad it was (even though it was left in a horrible balance state with literally not a single update for years) and then think that 6v6ers only want the first few seasons of Overwatch 1 back.
That's literally not the case at all. You guys are only remembering the worst parts of OW1 and making us think that we only remember the best parts of OW1. That is just not true. Another example of camp 5v5 lying and gaslighting again, as they always do. Ask any 6v6er- OW1 was not perfect. We remember the goods and the bads, but don't only see it through the first few seasons or last few seasons. Our point is that overall, the highs in OW1 were higher than the highs in OW2 and the lows weren't as low as the ones in OW2. Doesn't mean the game was perfect
I think the main thing to note is the brought in 5v5 to fix an issue. it was not fixed so why do we keep 5v5?
I know you won't see this Samito, but I so want to know what you'd think about Sigma still having his shield, but it simply being Sym's old shield instead. Minor adjustments as needed. I think Sigma was a little overtuned when he was released, but I think making his shield like Sym's old photon barrier would actually be fun and cool.
it seems like these 5v5 people want a game where each hero is balanced in a way so they all are equal, meaning they all have the same types of abilities. That would make the game even worse than what it is right now and i they do not know how to play the game and do not know what they are talking about. 6v6 is the way
Samito, i appreciate so much how outraged you are by the players for their handling of this issue. At this point, I think that devs have no control over the incentives for the game, and that means that as long as we keep complaining about the GAME, we are wasting our time. The game will not change until the players change. As the business won't. and gamers are the WORST people at changing their industry. it's how we have allowed it to fall as far as it has in the past 10 years, killing itself out of fun but exploding in money. We are children, and do not stand up for what really makes a difference to our games.
It seems blizzards best shot at making 5v5 work (aside from just balancing and reworking abilities) is giving each tank a unique passive