Thanks for doing this super fun video Lance! I had a ton of fun, and I learnt a lot from our differing styles of preference for brews! I'll definitely be playing more with our roasts at Rose to try them on a lighter tds brew!
What a lovely guest! This was a really insightful video, I had heard the Hario Suiren brewed very low bypass, which didn't make any sense to me since it looks like all bypass, but this helps explain why it would brew slower and more like a Mugan instead of a regular V60. I watch Hoffmann, Aramse, Coffee Chronicler and a smattering of others, but you have helped me increase my coffee enjoyment and knowledge more than any other channel, Lance. I really apprecaite it.
Super interesting video! I agree with Matt's approach of using one style for washed and another for natural and other processing types. I currently use a Pulsar for all my washed coffees as it leans towards very high extraction. I get very good results. For naturals, I use a Hario Switch with lower temp. Asser from Coffee Chronicler has a good method on Switch that works really well for naturals.
I LOVE MY BOOSTER!!! got it as soon as I could directly from their roastery in zurich. I was having a lot of problems before with clogged brews espesially with the sibarist orea papers and I was very annoyed to find out that soon after trying them horea came out with his v3.1 with ribs to fix the clogging issues. But then I was absolutely exstatic when I saw Matt releasing the booster. It definitely is my favourite accessory for the orea and is in my opinion essential to prevent clogged brews. Also you guys need to checkout rose coffee, one of the best roasteries in switzerland! only con is the swiss prices
Great video, thanks! I would love to see a V60 method for natural coffees specifically. Most of the recipes available seem to be for maximizing the extraction of washed coffee.
I was sure I have seen this Rose coffee bag before, but uncertain where. When I googled it...well I will in Zurich, so that explained it all. I did not know that Matt was behind it. Pretty cool!
I'm late to this video, but great job guys. Many of our users at Etkin have enjoyed pairing your booster with our dripper, so thanks for making such a useful product. An interesting comparison point might be the Blue Bottle Dripper, which has a much faster flow rate than most flat-bottom drippers. According to the designers, "Our method is based on the capillary system in nature-like the way a tree moves water from its roots to its leaves. Forty interior ridges pull water through the dripper faster than gravity alone could."
Is the takeaway to be more considerate of brewer design and how it affects flow as part of designing a recipe? So, contact points contributes to higher flow where contact points can be understood as the boundaries between touched and untouched filter paper. If the contact points are present above the coffee, you encourage bypass and get lighter and tea-like brews. If contact points are strictly below the coffee, you're encouraging faster flow through the coffee for more body while maintaining sweetness and acidity due to shorter contact time with the coffee. Is that the gist of it?
this hits home. i’ve watched every video on brewing methods, tried several drippers, bought water additives, fancy brewing gear, etc… i get insanely inconsistent results, generally bitter or sour, and i can’t seem to ever dial anything in before the end of my bag. it’s been very frustrating, especially living in LA where you can walk into a coffee shop and 9/10 times you’ll get an amazing brew. i’ve tried their method at home with similar beans and can’t match it. made me feel a bit better about the constant struggle to get that cup that worked.
Really loved that video, and you guys definitely pointed out something important - some of the recommendations one might read online are heavily based on personal preferences in the expression of a given coffee. More of these video please :D
Pour over can be so done many ways, I hardly ever have a bad pour over, just have to be open to the variation. And that's the fun of it right? Currently my favorite is the Nel dripper using the osmotic flow technique. It's amazing this uses such coarse ground no contact point at all except the coffee itself yet produces such an aromatic lovely cup of coffee, consistently. I mostly use Counter culture big trouble or fast forward blend of Latin American washed coffee...
My mate Jules pointed out this concept when I had drilled out a big hole from an aeropress cap, and was expecting a faster flow… i think the clean up is the main reason why I still prefer pour over to aeropress with no plunger… but it seems like aeropress is still the goat, this vid seems to confirm this
I knew Matt was gonna be a part of the video, I saw the live, I saw posts about it on IG, but I legit was startled when he appeared behind the filters 😂😂 i thought Hugo was gonna make him appear standing up with some effect or something 😅
I've been messing around with the amount of pours for different type of beans and to hear that Matt also use more pours for natural beans but use less for washed beans is reassuring. Seems like I'm on the right track in my coffee brewing journey
He confused me with more pours to extract less. I would say more pours is more fresh water and extracts more coffee. You also get more agitation by pouring more often. Maybe I do not understand him
@@petermaris9697 i could be totally wrong but from what i understood -- natural coffee more readily available solubles packed with flavour and so more concentrated ratio like 1:14 and split the pour into 5 so that contact time between water and coffee is short every time (compared to a lot of water sitting in the brewer slowly choking it up and draining and overextracting). With washed, he wants to have more extraction so hes doing finer grinds, more agitation maybe, therefore water and coffee hanging out longer together.
Very interesting idea. Underscores for me why I like flat-bottom no-bypass brewers so much, less things to think about. Tricolate v1 was much slower flow compared to newer models, and would have had less contact points. Would be fun to get a "booster" disk that would sit neatly under a pulsar filter paper, would love to test that - might make one myself now...
@@rakimakiyoyo I don't think so, but I don't know. I just took a look on their website. I would try it first by simply fold a hario filter at the bottom.
One reason coffee brewing is so complicated is because different types of coffee behave differently also i found your water chemistry can have a big impact on how efficiently the coffee extracts. I was brewing with one water just fine using 205f then switched my brew water and found It was over extracting and needed to reduce temp to 195f in order to get rid of the bitterness I just started getting.
I have been doing this for sometime even before this video came out. Great to know and validate my findings also. My set-up: - Orea V4 Narrow with Apex tip - 53.5/0.8mm mesh from Notsek - Install mesh between the Apex tip and Orea body then screw back as is. I can go finer and faster draw down. I noted the same that for naturals and dense coffee, I can stretch the extraction further before going overboard. Better clarity in my cups compared without the mesh. Great to see my thinking was aligned with the best of the best.
A series of videos of understanding pour over would be amazing, I always feel like the content when it comes to pour over compared to espresso is not as beginner friendly, for example a series of videos similar to James Hoffman's understanding espresso series would be amazing but for pour over
Awesome stuff. Whenever I feel like a Flat Bottom I always use the OREA and Matt’s 5 pour recipe with the melodrip. (Otherwise I’m using the Hario Switch) awesome video. Excited to try this out. Been meaning to try out some expensive papers on my fancy expensive coffee’s, I’m just always hesitant to experiment with differences when I have a very expensive coffee, but it’s time I overcome that fear.
I would expect the mesh style would work well. Lots of areas could touch the filter, while also having significant channels for the water to flow. I also have the flat slotted style of puck screen, which i expect could work, but not as well. The diameter of the screen may be a problem getting down into the bottom of the brewer though.
I have one and it has been working great, but it's one with kind of a single layer, there are some like the MHW3 that have some kind of two layers that I think would work great. 51MM fits almost perfectly in the B75 BTW, just need a little sanding.
Hey Matt! Love the video. I've been using a Flair Pro2 puck screen as a booster in my fellow stagg x brewer and also getting delicious higher extraction cups with the Pietro.
I use the frilly filter papers in my orea, so just wondering how that changes things as the discussion here seems to relate to the flat papers with the negotiator tool. I’m guessing there is less need for the mesh screen with the frilly papers…
I have a long time question, especially for this video talking about no-bypass, even bottom with a "booster": if order to achieve all above, why not just using a aeropress as a pour over dripper? You can still do the blooming, then you can pour the water and use the plunge to control the speed as you'd like to have.
Very interesting. I've noticed, since I've been using a refractometer that my extractions vary even with the same coffee/grind size in my V60 and I was wondering why this would be the case, so my take from this video is a lack of capillary action is at play here? Any tips for the V60 Lance? I have a standard Aeropress mesh but it's not going to fit in the V60 🤔
This made me wanna try the orea. Everything I’ve tried though leads me back to my good old trusty v60. I do have a question to the rid bit at the end about grinders. Where would you rank the timemore C2? It’s what I have. Seems pretty consistent and I’ve had it for almost 3 years so it’s seasoned. I’m interested to take the input from this video and try it on my thermal shock Diego Bermudez coffee roasted from Black and White roasters, that is currently resting 😴
Not doubting the findings but I would have hoped for a refractometer to measure extraction and blind tastings to give a bit more scientific rigor to the process.
@jaytee743 i did measure extraction and they were roughly same. Blind tasting is impossible because the Temps were different and to equalize it would take massive oxidation of one to make them similar. Blind tasting happens off camera
13:00 when Matt says he uses 5 pour for more processed coffees to reduce extraction, my understanding is that this pour style would increase extraction much more as you're not only agitating more with 5 pours but also the constant slurry temp would be much hugh as you're topping it up with hot water opposed to letting it cool down. Could anyone weigh in on this?
I’m also confused how this would work with a V60 using the Sibarist Booster 22. I thought I heard the booster goes first followed by the paper. Wouldn’t that be reversed for a V60? Filter first followed by booster.
It's not just contact patches, it's about having lots of boundaries or ridges etc. where a solid, air, and the paper filter all meet. The solid contact point helps relieve surface tension, allowing the liquid to draw through the paper into the open space next to the ridge.
I've made 8 cups of a washed light roast Ethiopian using the Orea porcelain with the B3 filters & Booster. They are all muted in flavor. I've tried fine grind all the way up to coarse. I'm at 208F. Any ideas?
I’m curious about the theory behind the Suiren from Hario and how this will apply to it. I’ve seen people having longer brew times with it and now make complete sense.
@@devrim1134 the thing is, the Suiren has maaany contact points and also large ones, but at the same time the no contact area is massively impacting the brew times. The question is, is it a product just for the looks? Or is there an actual science behind it?
The Theory presented here basically says that any capillary hole structure draws water from the dripper right? and by extension all non capillary structures have limited flow that concentrates on open surfaces, like ridges or rims of holes? and then the more amount of outflow points will improve the evenness of the extraction? sorry I'm a little confused
You're taking things to extremes. In theory, more contact points should improve flow rate. Of course, there are right ways and wrong ways of implementing these. More efficient flow through the paper does allow for more even flow through the bed.
@@LanceHedrick thank you for your response !!! I will rewatch the video some more times and try to understand what's going on :) I am new to filter coffee kind of
Yes. The brew tends to flow out through the filter where there is least resistance and capillary action, and that is where filter touches the ridges of the brewer.
Yes, what I heard was contact points, not contact area. So more strictly speaking, it's the increased amount of transition area (between contact and non-contact) that increases the flow rate. I assume there's a minimum size of contact point before it becomes just a flat contact area, but whether that has practical relevance I don't know.
Yes, and not only that, but a point not talked about in the video is contact points also equals channeling within the brew. The booster or contact points on the bottom takes advantage of this idea in a positive way, more contact points on the side doesn't take advantage of this, causes channeling in the brew and out the side through adhesive force. But you can also change your coffee to water ratio to compensate for your brewer style. Happy brewing.
@@brandyballoon I thought the same thing. "Wait, is he gonna collab with NileRed?" 🤣 One cup probably wouldn't hurt, but one cup a day may affect balance (inner ear fluids) or blood pressure (heavy blood?)
I came across someone in an old forum thread (apologies I cannot remember where) who had cut up some mesh from a sieve and used that in an aero press to reduce the drawn down time and reported it then worked quite well as an actual dripper. Really interesting idea, although not one I've tried myself (yet....)
I experimented a bit with AP and mesh. You need to use a different type of paper for an improved flow, as the one AP comes with is way too slow and you have to grind much coarser
I do exactly this with my Aeropress, but the reason I use the metal screen is to support the paper so it doesn't bulge into the holes when you put pressure on it.
How would you change the xBloom recipe for high extraction for clean coffees Vs lower expectation for naturals? Do you have a go to xBloom recipe for each you can share?
High is relative. Are you saying you'd use the same xBloom recipe for all washed and naturals just the same? Or would you change anything based on the coffee used?
So if I were to use a paper filter inside of a metal mesh V60 filter, that would give a similar result? Also, out of curiosity, the machine was programmed to do a samo bloom, what exactly were the brewing parameters?
Not that I want to add on to the shameless plug, but Sibarist also makes a 22 mm filter specifically for v60 as well, which I have shamelessly thrown money at. It did increase flavor clarity a bit. A little pricey, but worth a try - just note that you have to use specialized filters from Sibarist to fit it as well for the conical drippers (v60 etc). BESIDES that, I would recommend using different filters, different grind sizes, and as he stated above; pouring from different elevations (you can purposefully pour higher to INCREASE agitation, it can be ok with more coarse grinds). Sorry if any of this was redundant from the video :)
I think switch mugen is more of a immersion style brewer compared to this which is more of a fast even flow brewer, almost like 2 different directions. But mugen with booster 22 should be similar to what they are trying to achieve here.
A paper filter inside the mesh will give more fine particle filtration, but allow for the same concepts from the video. A mesh filter alone will make a pour over brew more similar to a French press.
I still find it so hard to understand why people do not sip water in between samples when cupping. I have been tasting wines professionally for a long time and the simple act of sipping water make a world of difference as it cleanse your mouth and gives a better result. Please make this normal in coffee cupping as well
Oh, and to digress a bit, my friend is the US champion this year for somm under 30 and will compete in the world's next month. He is a somm at 11 Madison Park. He also is a previous Barista Champion. He still sees no reason to sip water between. The viscosity and lingering sensation of wine is so far different from coffee it's insane. Also, he says going to wine from coffee was simple because wine is less complex by miles 🤣🤣🤣
@@LanceHedrick this reply surprises me to be honest. I apply extremely similar techniques when tasting (food, wine, coffee, spirits etc.) as I am using the same things to do so: mouth and nose (without going too deep on these as I think we talk the same language here). Can you elaborate on why you believe that cleaning your buds would make a massive difference when tasting anything else but you think it makes no difference with coffee? Surely viscosity is not different enough
@@LanceHedrick Fair enough. I used to do the same (and still do it sometimes) with wine. Then I tried and I noticed the difference. Now if I only taste few wines (under 15/20) I do not do it but if I am tasting more I definitely do it and I can easily notice the difference. You are quite empirical so maybe give it a try ;)
To me coffee is an art not a science you listen to the experts you have the ratios as a baseline and adjust to your own preferences and taste and most importantly have fun with it
@@LanceHedrick Some vocal internet blokes. Based on Hoffman’s video with flat bottom drippers compariso , you do get around 21-22% extraction with them whereas cones tend to be slightly lower at 19% which what you teach indeed
The boundary between where air touches the paper and something else touches it. On the Kona there are contact points (boundaries) where those spiral ridges come up the bottom half of the dripper. All along those ridges is where the capillary action through the paper is going to be the highest and water will flow. In the later examples he has a ridge less dripper which means there will be no flow through the sides of the paper and then he puts a metal disc with lots of holes below. Every one of those holes is a ridge/boundary where capillary flow will be increased. If he were to have a big open hole there instead of the mesh it would flow slower and only around the edges where the wall ends, (so more unevenly as well)
@@penleypepsi9510 bypass implies that the water left the filter without passing through the coffee bed. On something like a hario v60 those ridges toward the top would cause increased bypass. But on the orea since there is no where the water can escape except at the bottom, that screen is increasing flow only at the bottom of the bed.
@MrFowl just started seriously yesterday. Actually dieting now ha! Got a coach who works with ifbb pros. Should make some big changes over coming months.
Yes I'm well aware. I'm friends with Sheldon. Doesn't mean I feel like saying s works. Same way I don't say weber workshops, but weber. Or how I dont say mahlkonig ek43, but just EK. But thank you for coming and aggressively showing your unfathomable knowledge! Appreciate it.
![[HARIO] V60 Five-Pour Recipe - Matt Winton (World Brewers Cup Champion)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YIC-2nFQ7vM/mqdefault.jpg)
More videos where two experts with different preferences discuss please! So much more valuable than having a solo perspective in a vacuum.
Agree. Very interesting to hear differing views from experts
Thanks for doing this super fun video Lance! I had a ton of fun, and I learnt a lot from our differing styles of preference for brews! I'll definitely be playing more with our roasts at Rose to try them on a lighter tds brew!
What a lovely guest! This was a really insightful video, I had heard the Hario Suiren brewed very low bypass, which didn't make any sense to me since it looks like all bypass, but this helps explain why it would brew slower and more like a Mugan instead of a regular V60. I watch Hoffmann, Aramse, Coffee Chronicler and a smattering of others, but you have helped me increase my coffee enjoyment and knowledge more than any other channel, Lance. I really apprecaite it.
Super interesting video! I agree with Matt's approach of using one style for washed and another for natural and other processing types. I currently use a Pulsar for all my washed coffees as it leans towards very high extraction. I get very good results. For naturals, I use a Hario Switch with lower temp. Asser from Coffee Chronicler has a good method on Switch that works really well for naturals.
I've recently just discovered your channel Lance and I can't tell you how much I have learned in just 3 videos so far. Thank you so much!
Omfg. Coffee nerds will put a puck screen on anything. I’m imagining the Portlandia sketch but it’s Lance saying “put a screen on it”
You can pickle that!
I LOVE MY BOOSTER!!! got it as soon as I could directly from their roastery in zurich. I was having a lot of problems before with clogged brews espesially with the sibarist orea papers and I was very annoyed to find out that soon after trying them horea came out with his v3.1 with ribs to fix the clogging issues. But then I was absolutely exstatic when I saw Matt releasing the booster.
It definitely is my favourite accessory for the orea and is in my opinion essential to prevent clogged brews.
Also you guys need to checkout rose coffee, one of the best roasteries in switzerland! only con is the swiss prices
I’ve been having a lot of clogging issues lately, so I gotta lay my hand on the booster. Thanks for sharing your comment
Great video, thanks! I would love to see a V60 method for natural coffees specifically. Most of the recipes available seem to be for maximizing the extraction of washed coffee.
Brew same way, try your coffee, if it's too strong fermented flavor, add a little bit water will directly change your cup become more enjoyable
For me, just extract a bit less for naturals! Lower ratio, coarser grind :)
I was sure I have seen this Rose coffee bag before, but uncertain where. When I googled it...well I will in Zurich, so that explained it all. I did not know that Matt was behind it. Pretty cool!
I'm late to this video, but great job guys. Many of our users at Etkin have enjoyed pairing your booster with our dripper, so thanks for making such a useful product.
An interesting comparison point might be the Blue Bottle Dripper, which has a much faster flow rate than most flat-bottom drippers. According to the designers, "Our method is based on the capillary system in nature-like the way a tree moves water from its roots to its leaves. Forty interior ridges pull water through the dripper faster than gravity alone could."
Loved the practical approach and visual explanation with the spoon.
Is the takeaway to be more considerate of brewer design and how it affects flow as part of designing a recipe? So, contact points contributes to higher flow where contact points can be understood as the boundaries between touched and untouched filter paper. If the contact points are present above the coffee, you encourage bypass and get lighter and tea-like brews. If contact points are strictly below the coffee, you're encouraging faster flow through the coffee for more body while maintaining sweetness and acidity due to shorter contact time with the coffee. Is that the gist of it?
Great sum up!
this hits home. i’ve watched every video on brewing methods, tried several drippers, bought water additives, fancy brewing gear, etc… i get insanely inconsistent results, generally bitter or sour, and i can’t seem to ever dial anything in before the end of my bag. it’s been very frustrating, especially living in LA where you can walk into a coffee shop and 9/10 times you’ll get an amazing brew. i’ve tried their method at home with similar beans and can’t match it. made me feel a bit better about the constant struggle to get that cup that worked.
The word that you were looking for is "muddled" 😊
Really cool, how could this idea of contact points carry over to a brewer like the v60? Thanks!
It does. Make sure that the Paper touches as much surface as possible.
@ cool thanks!
Amazing video. Bring more of these Lance! Our brains will thank you 😉
Is this a hidden Sibarist ad😂 now I want the booster and papers to solve my wacky brews
Nice!!! I've been enjoying Matt's coffee for quite some time already, so learning directly from Matt is so awesome!
Really loved that video, and you guys definitely pointed out something important - some of the recommendations one might read online are heavily based on personal preferences in the expression of a given coffee. More of these video please :D
Pour over can be so done many ways, I hardly ever have a bad pour over, just have to be open to the variation. And that's the fun of it right? Currently my favorite is the Nel dripper using the osmotic flow technique. It's amazing this uses such coarse ground no contact point at all except the coffee itself yet produces such an aromatic lovely cup of coffee, consistently. I mostly use Counter culture big trouble or fast forward blend of Latin American washed coffee...
The most clear way to explain what happens inside our drippers, thanks!
Your videos are awesome man!
My mate Jules pointed out this concept when I had drilled out a big hole from an aeropress cap, and was expecting a faster flow… i think the clean up is the main reason why I still prefer pour over to aeropress with no plunger… but it seems like aeropress is still the goat, this vid seems to confirm this
Did I just watch an ad that I actually enjoyed? Matt is awesome, great info.
Not an ad from me. I say cut wire mesh from a sink filter you can get at the store for 50 cents lol
@@LanceHedrick lol, that’s why we love you, Lance
Appreciate the extraction on naturals talk! Helped a lot with this mornings flat white.
if anyone has a recipe for coffee on heavy water it gots to be my man Lance.
I love you!!
my lunch break just got better! thanks matt and lance, love from brazil
I knew Matt was gonna be a part of the video, I saw the live, I saw posts about it on IG, but I legit was startled when he appeared behind the filters 😂😂 i thought Hugo was gonna make him appear standing up with some effect or something 😅
I’m glad your wish came true and Matt appeared. ❤ ☕️
I've been messing around with the amount of pours for different type of beans and to hear that Matt also use more pours for natural beans but use less for washed beans is reassuring. Seems like I'm on the right track in my coffee brewing journey
He confused me with more pours to extract less. I would say more pours is more fresh water and extracts more coffee. You also get more agitation by pouring more often. Maybe I do not understand him
@@petermaris9697 i could be totally wrong but from what i understood -- natural coffee more readily available solubles packed with flavour and so more concentrated ratio like 1:14 and split the pour into 5 so that contact time between water and coffee is short every time (compared to a lot of water sitting in the brewer slowly choking it up and draining and overextracting). With washed, he wants to have more extraction so hes doing finer grinds, more agitation maybe, therefore water and coffee hanging out longer together.
Great video. There's so much to learn from this one and integrate into my daily brew.
Very interesting idea. Underscores for me why I like flat-bottom no-bypass brewers so much, less things to think about. Tricolate v1 was much slower flow compared to newer models, and would have had less contact points. Would be fun to get a "booster" disk that would sit neatly under a pulsar filter paper, would love to test that - might make one myself now...
For the timemore B75 a 51mm puck screen fits perfectly
love this “brewers anonymous” vibe
A wonderful video, CHEERS!
I do hope we see more from the dynamic duo!
loved this video! super interesting and something i haven't heard anyone talk about before.
Just toss a few whole beans between the filter and your flat bottom brewer. Plenty of contact points without clogging the exit holes.
Great insightful video. Love it!
Thank you Lance and Matt.
Does this apply for V60 ? Switch ? Inclined to test it with a mesh
Sibarist is offering the "booster 22" so I think yes.
@@Kongo0tto I would need to change my filters too. Right ?
@@rakimakiyoyo I don't think so, but I don't know. I just took a look on their website. I would try it first by simply fold a hario filter at the bottom.
@@rakimakiyoyonot a must to change, but it is a little difficult to make the regular v60 filter to be a flat bottom one
One reason coffee brewing is so complicated is because different types of coffee behave differently also i found your water chemistry can have a big impact on how efficiently the coffee extracts. I was brewing with one water just fine using 205f then switched my brew water and found It was over extracting and needed to reduce temp to 195f in order to get rid of the bitterness I just started getting.
I have been doing this for sometime even before this video came out. Great to know and validate my findings also.
My set-up:
- Orea V4 Narrow with Apex tip
- 53.5/0.8mm mesh from Notsek
- Install mesh between the Apex tip and Orea body then screw back as is.
I can go finer and faster draw down. I noted the same that for naturals and dense coffee, I can stretch the extraction further before going overboard. Better clarity in my cups compared without the mesh. Great to see my thinking was aligned with the best of the best.
A series of videos of understanding pour over would be amazing, I always feel like the content when it comes to pour over compared to espresso is not as beginner friendly, for example a series of videos similar to James Hoffman's understanding espresso series would be amazing but for pour over
Lance has a couple videos already, one with general variables and then another demonstrating how he dials in several different coffees
Awesome stuff. Whenever I feel like a Flat Bottom I always use the OREA and Matt’s 5 pour recipe with the melodrip. (Otherwise I’m using the Hario Switch) awesome video. Excited to try this out. Been meaning to try out some expensive papers on my fancy expensive coffee’s, I’m just always hesitant to experiment with differences when I have a very expensive coffee, but it’s time I overcome that fear.
How are you using the Hario switch. Immersion first then percolation?
I love this version of the Mario bros
Do you think an espresso puck screen would work? Or are the holes too small to have the desired effect? Actually I'll just try it lol
I would expect the mesh style would work well. Lots of areas could touch the filter, while also having significant channels for the water to flow. I also have the flat slotted style of puck screen, which i expect could work, but not as well.
The diameter of the screen may be a problem getting down into the bottom of the brewer though.
Curious as well
Yes that will work fine, anything with contact points work, more or less contact points change the flow rate.
I have one and it has been working great, but it's one with kind of a single layer, there are some like the MHW3 that have some kind of two layers that I think would work great.
51MM fits almost perfectly in the B75 BTW, just need a little sanding.
Allways something new. ☕️
Hey Matt! Love the video. I've been using a Flair Pro2 puck screen as a booster in my fellow stagg x brewer and also getting delicious higher extraction cups with the Pietro.
My april plastic and 58mm puck screen at the bottom now make sense
The gaps in contact help relieve vacuum
Is there a difference between the Sibarist Booster Screen and lets say a screen you can use for a espresso machine?
They seem really similar 🤔
I use the frilly filter papers in my orea, so just wondering how that changes things as the discussion here seems to relate to the flat papers with the negotiator tool. I’m guessing there is less need for the mesh screen with the frilly papers…
What is the cone device that Matt used to press the filter in at 8:31?
A Negotiator tool.
Great vid, thanks Lance
I have a long time question, especially for this video talking about no-bypass, even bottom with a "booster": if order to achieve all above, why not just using a aeropress as a pour over dripper? You can still do the blooming, then you can pour the water and use the plunge to control the speed as you'd like to have.
im gonna try this lmfao
Should we be ‘negotiating’ our V60 for evenness of contact points? 🤔
Hey Lance, could you please introduce us to the hario suiren?
Very interesting. I've noticed, since I've been using a refractometer that my extractions vary even with the same coffee/grind size in my V60 and I was wondering why this would be the case, so my take from this video is a lack of capillary action is at play here?
Any tips for the V60 Lance?
I have a standard Aeropress mesh but it's not going to fit in the V60 🤔
This made me wanna try the orea. Everything I’ve tried though leads me back to my good old trusty v60. I do have a question to the rid bit at the end about grinders. Where would you rank the timemore C2? It’s what I have. Seems pretty consistent and I’ve had it for almost 3 years so it’s seasoned. I’m interested to take the input from this video and try it on my thermal shock Diego Bermudez coffee roasted from Black and White roasters, that is currently resting 😴
Not doubting the findings but I would have hoped for a refractometer to measure extraction and blind tastings to give a bit more scientific rigor to the process.
@jaytee743 i did measure extraction and they were roughly same. Blind tasting is impossible because the Temps were different and to equalize it would take massive oxidation of one to make them similar. Blind tasting happens off camera
Interestingly I had the same faster flow results when I put a paper filter in the bottom of my espresso machine portafilter.
13:00 when Matt says he uses 5 pour for more processed coffees to reduce extraction, my understanding is that this pour style would increase extraction much more as you're not only agitating more with 5 pours but also the constant slurry temp would be much hugh as you're topping it up with hot water opposed to letting it cool down. Could anyone weigh in on this?
Tbh I agree but he apparently uses laminar flow to lessen extraction and a lot coarser grounds. He also uses a v60 with more bypass.
@@LanceHedrick thanks a lot for the reply Lance!
Love the poor-over technique, I'm recommending it to a friend who wants a very mild Americano. Would you say that is a good recommendation?
I’m also confused how this would work with a V60 using the Sibarist Booster 22. I thought I heard the booster goes first followed by the paper. Wouldn’t that be reversed for a V60? Filter first followed by booster.
No. For the v60 they have special papers with a flat bottom to go on top of the booster.
Thanks
What about types of paper? Like wave in a flat walled dripper? It would have a lot of contact points
It's not just contact patches, it's about having lots of boundaries or ridges etc. where a solid, air, and the paper filter all meet. The solid contact point helps relieve surface tension, allowing the liquid to draw through the paper into the open space next to the ridge.
So would the booster negate the difference between Orea V3 and Type A/B?
I've made 8 cups of a washed light roast Ethiopian using the Orea porcelain with the B3 filters & Booster. They are all muted in flavor. I've tried fine grind all the way up to coarse. I'm at 208F. Any ideas?
I don't enjoy going that hot personally. Go cooler. And go coarse. And don't do so many pours. Try 2-3 max.
@@LanceHedrick I'll give it a try! Appreciate it.
I’m curious about the theory behind the Suiren from Hario and how this will apply to it. I’ve seen people having longer brew times with it and now make complete sense.
I was thinking the same thing, but fewer contact points makes a less efficient flow, correct?
Great video again! Always learning 🕺🏻☕️
@@devrim1134 the thing is, the Suiren has maaany contact points and also large ones, but at the same time the no contact area is massively impacting the brew times. The question is, is it a product just for the looks? Or is there an actual science behind it?
The Theory presented here basically says that any capillary hole structure draws water from the dripper right? and by extension all non capillary structures have limited flow that concentrates on open surfaces, like ridges or rims of holes?
and then the more amount of outflow points will improve the evenness of the extraction?
sorry I'm a little confused
You're taking things to extremes. In theory, more contact points should improve flow rate. Of course, there are right ways and wrong ways of implementing these. More efficient flow through the paper does allow for more even flow through the bed.
@@LanceHedrick thank you for your response !!! I will rewatch the video some more times and try to understand what's going on :) I am new to filter coffee kind of
Top tier video
Hello, nice video ! So if I understand correctly, for a given dripper, the higher the number of contact points, the higher the flow rate ?
Yes. The brew tends to flow out through the filter where there is least resistance and capillary action, and that is where filter touches the ridges of the brewer.
Yes, what I heard was contact points, not contact area. So more strictly speaking, it's the increased amount of transition area (between contact and non-contact) that increases the flow rate. I assume there's a minimum size of contact point before it becomes just a flat contact area, but whether that has practical relevance I don't know.
Yes, and not only that, but a point not talked about in the video is contact points also equals channeling within the brew. The booster or contact points on the bottom takes advantage of this idea in a positive way, more contact points on the side doesn't take advantage of this, causes channeling in the brew and out the side through adhesive force. But you can also change your coffee to water ratio to compensate for your brewer style. Happy brewing.
Sorta. But the only way water escapes is through these. More channels for escape is likely equating more evenness of extraction.
Nice vid, but I have my doubts about water behaving in all ways like coffee, especially given that coffee liquids vary quite some on their own.
Lololol how is making content accessible pretentious? Ridiculous claim.
@@ChelseaCharlie you're a joker. Bye
9:13 Heavy water? Best not give people crazy ideas, some mad scientist might actually try it 😂
@@brandyballoon I thought the same thing. "Wait, is he gonna collab with NileRed?" 🤣
One cup probably wouldn't hurt, but one cup a day may affect balance (inner ear fluids) or blood pressure (heavy blood?)
Refreshing ❤
So.. an Aeropress with, at the bottom, both a metal screen and round paper filter might work the same way?
I came across someone in an old forum thread (apologies I cannot remember where) who had cut up some mesh from a sieve and used that in an aero press to reduce the drawn down time and reported it then worked quite well as an actual dripper.
Really interesting idea, although not one I've tried myself (yet....)
I experimented a bit with AP and mesh. You need to use a different type of paper for an improved flow, as the one AP comes with is way too slow and you have to grind much coarser
I do exactly this with my Aeropress, but the reason I use the metal screen is to support the paper so it doesn't bulge into the holes when you put pressure on it.
@@brandyballoon Yeah they reinvented it.
How would you change the xBloom recipe for high extraction for clean coffees Vs lower expectation for naturals? Do you have a go to xBloom recipe for each you can share?
I never go high. I can't stand the bitterness. We found out Matt has a higher threshold for bitterness than I do.
High is relative. Are you saying you'd use the same xBloom recipe for all washed and naturals just the same? Or would you change anything based on the coffee used?
@@123romanr grind size and water temp.
So if I were to use a paper filter inside of a metal mesh V60 filter, that would give a similar result?
Also, out of curiosity, the machine was programmed to do a samo bloom, what exactly were the brewing parameters?
So for example, hario suiren has 12 contact points?
So technically, if I use a mesh conical filter with a conical paper filter is the same principle right?
Yep
Anyone know where I can buy a mesh ring for my Stagg x ?
Nvm I watched the full video 😅
to be honest i didn't understand how can I use this at home. I have a v60, how can I use this information in the video?
@@7Swans0n it seems to me this was only for flat bottom brewers. I believe v60 was mentioned but I don't see how it could apply...
Not that I want to add on to the shameless plug, but Sibarist also makes a 22 mm filter specifically for v60 as well, which I have shamelessly thrown money at. It did increase flavor clarity a bit. A little pricey, but worth a try - just note that you have to use specialized filters from Sibarist to fit it as well for the conical drippers (v60 etc). BESIDES that, I would recommend using different filters, different grind sizes, and as he stated above; pouring from different elevations (you can purposefully pour higher to INCREASE agitation, it can be ok with more coarse grinds). Sorry if any of this was redundant from the video :)
I wonder if Switch+Mugen even makes sense now because it's SO HARD to dial in + filter is always squeezed by the ball
I think switch mugen is more of a immersion style brewer compared to this which is more of a fast even flow brewer, almost like 2 different directions. But mugen with booster 22 should be similar to what they are trying to achieve here.
@@ming19910802 maybe, but it only works with their own filters which is a bummer
i am wondering, isn't this exactly the same principle as putting the paper filter under the espresso puck?
I think i said it in the video but maybe it was edited out. Yes it is similar.
@@LanceHedrick Thanks. And thanks for all these helpful videos!
What about pour overs with a mesh filters (no paper filter needed)(
A paper filter inside the mesh will give more fine particle filtration, but allow for the same concepts from the video. A mesh filter alone will make a pour over brew more similar to a French press.
What is the scale and app you use around 4 min 30 ?
My guess is the DiFluid, I have one in black and it measures the flow rate and has an app as well, they make a nice little refractometer too.
I still find it so hard to understand why people do not sip water in between samples when cupping. I have been tasting wines professionally for a long time and the simple act of sipping water make a world of difference as it cleanse your mouth and gives a better result. Please make this normal in coffee cupping as well
Wine and coffee are not the same.
Oh, and to digress a bit, my friend is the US champion this year for somm under 30 and will compete in the world's next month. He is a somm at 11 Madison Park. He also is a previous Barista Champion. He still sees no reason to sip water between. The viscosity and lingering sensation of wine is so far different from coffee it's insane. Also, he says going to wine from coffee was simple because wine is less complex by miles 🤣🤣🤣
@@LanceHedrick this reply surprises me to be honest. I apply extremely similar techniques when tasting (food, wine, coffee, spirits etc.) as I am using the same things to do so: mouth and nose (without going too deep on these as I think we talk the same language here). Can you elaborate on why you believe that cleaning your buds would make a massive difference when tasting anything else but you think it makes no difference with coffee? Surely viscosity is not different enough
@@ivanfiorilla6851 I've never sat and considered because I never felt the need. I just know I am able to cup and identify tables without doing it.
@@LanceHedrick Fair enough. I used to do the same (and still do it sometimes) with wine. Then I tried and I noticed the difference. Now if I only taste few wines (under 15/20) I do not do it but if I am tasting more I definitely do it and I can easily notice the difference. You are quite empirical so maybe give it a try ;)
There are like 5 things I want to buy after watching this video. Come on, guys.
grind it till you can't feel the grains and make turkish coffee, no pourover needed :p.
To me coffee is an art not a science you listen to the experts you have the ratios as a baseline and adjust to your own preferences and taste and most importantly have fun with it
Stu Mackenzie is also a brewing champ? unbelievable
lol, That was an intro :D
Pourover moves closer to espresso and vice versa
It would be nice if you can share some good recipes
AN AUSSIE, YAHHHHHHH
Is this a solution for a problem that doesn't exist?
This hobby is already getting out of hand. Just bought a V60. Now I need a B3 😅
No need for a b3!
@@LanceHedrick is there also a way to increase contact points for the v60?
You’d actually get a decent brew using world brewers recipes with low/medium extraction than extracting 25-27 % of 30% your coffee all the time
Who the bleep is extracting that much. No one. Even if they claim it. And what I teach is about 19%. Matt tends to like a bit higher like 21-22
@@LanceHedrick Some vocal internet blokes. Based on Hoffman’s video with flat bottom drippers compariso , you do get around 21-22% extraction with them whereas cones tend to be slightly lower at 19% which what you teach indeed
I think I don't even understand what a contact point really is.
The boundary between where air touches the paper and something else touches it. On the Kona there are contact points (boundaries) where those spiral ridges come up the bottom half of the dripper. All along those ridges is where the capillary action through the paper is going to be the highest and water will flow. In the later examples he has a ridge less dripper which means there will be no flow through the sides of the paper and then he puts a metal disc with lots of holes below. Every one of those holes is a ridge/boundary where capillary flow will be increased. If he were to have a big open hole there instead of the mesh it would flow slower and only around the edges where the wall ends, (so more unevenly as well)
@@TheZooloo10 Thanks for explaining, that makes sense! I don't do filter coffee, so I have never thought about the physics of it
@@TheZooloo10so basically just bypass?
@@penleypepsi9510 bypass implies that the water left the filter without passing through the coffee bed. On something like a hario v60 those ridges toward the top would cause increased bypass. But on the orea since there is no where the water can escape except at the bottom, that screen is increasing flow only at the bottom of the bed.
Bruh ...you been working out?
Big time
About 4 months in
@@LanceHedrick only 4 months!? What the hell man, you have to do a video on your training! That's insane progress for only 4 months 👀
@MrFowl just started seriously yesterday. Actually dieting now ha! Got a coach who works with ifbb pros. Should make some big changes over coming months.
Bro just put a puck screen
Omg it’s S Works not SWORKS
Yes I'm well aware. I'm friends with Sheldon. Doesn't mean I feel like saying s works. Same way I don't say weber workshops, but weber. Or how I dont say mahlkonig ek43, but just EK. But thank you for coming and aggressively showing your unfathomable knowledge! Appreciate it.
@@LanceHedrick oh damn sorry my tone didn’t come across right at all-I was like holy heck I’ve been saying it wrong
Lolol i call it sworks all the time. Read like you were exasperated with annoyance at people saying sworks. Hahahaha
@@LanceHedrick 😅🙏yeah idk if u even said it in this vid xx
@@LanceHedrickit’s called MahlkÖnig…