8cm Mortar Grenade vs KV-1 Top Armor | Overpressure | Explosion Blast
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- Опубліковано 11 лют 2024
- Simulation of German 8cm mortar grenade hitting the top turret armor of a KV-1 tank.
8cm Wgr. 34 (3.5kg grenade steel body, 0.5kg explosive - TNT)
vs
30mm RHA (275 BHN Hardness)*
*referring to British trials
No spalling. It can also be said that the overpressure is not life-threatening, although it is certainly not pleasant. - Наука та технологія
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30mm thickness referring to British trials that I posted in the community tab
it would be intresting if you tested a 12 cm mortar grenade. to compare.
Simulation idea: 152mm AP against Tiger Ausf.E cupola. Why? Because in Otto Carius' memoirs, an SU-152 hit his cupola as he was crouched down to speak to a crew member. It ripped the whole thing apart but he didn't even get a scratch on him. Would be interesting to see a simulation of that impact and see if he was either miraculously lucky or if there truly weren't any fragments going down the turret
@@johnhighway7399most likle IT was only 76mm tgier H and panter D have very bad copula design. IT was very often ript od turet when hit. Welds where very weck.
is this a "Call to Arms Gates of Hell" situation?
Where posted? And i googl british trials and not find noting for tank.
" a minor headache" that would be claimed as "harm not service related"
Can't have a headache if you're not conscious to feel it *taps temple*
I'm a vet, Marine, but you pu**ified ones are embarassing and giving us all a bad name with your disability lotteries.
Guess what. Sh** happens, both inside the military and outside of it.
Do you think that guy working in a machine tool shop gets 10% for life afterwards?
Or, for that matter, you never do a thing in your off-time that carries on forever?
Put*
I think you are assigning too much compassion to the Stalin era Red Army. It wouldn't even be reported.
Actually, the pressure wave from this was pretty insignificant and would not be dangerous.
I acctually think one of the coolest parts of this is it shows how the mortor rounds shape is optimised to through shrapnalout wards and not at the ground or sky.
That was my takeaway too
Well yeah that's their entire purpose
@@johnhighway7399 that was the entire point of his comment, you can say something is designed to act a certain way but to see it shown in action working as intended is really cool.
@@blindfoldedmissile i think he meant "I actually think the coolest parts of this is how the mortar round's shape is optimised to throw fragments outwards, but not at the ground or sky."
Yes. It through shrapnalouts the wards quite well.
Pretty comical how the tailpiece more or less stays there afterwards as if nothing happened
When doing an ANSYS simulation, you want to keep the model as simple as possible so it doesn't take ages to solve. The tail piece isn't important to the result so I'm guessing this guy didn't bother with it
What? Of course the tail piece is fully modeled. This is just what happens to it. You can see it in real mortar impacts - the tail is often found in the middle of the blast crater, fully intact.
@@arturjogi2667 Wow, cool. Where'd you see of that?
@@ZigaZagu Both on the battlefields and destroyed depots intact (or rather no damage other than bent fins) is the one of most common finds. Usually with remains of the projectile base (especially for models where fin was screwed info shell body.
@@arturjogi2667 Yes I can confirm, I found many of such pieces, tail is completely intact and only the fins are slightly deformed. And I found a 120mm one too, which had up to 4kg of explosive filler (8x as powerful as this one in video) - still 100% intact
Never realized how much of the design is thought up to prevent most of the shrapnel going down into the dirt, that was until Explosive Ordnance on YT did a video about a 3D printed grenade with a shrapnel sleeve and how they would have to change the design of the sleeve to improve its effect. It's very interesting to see how mortars have had the design that they do and how it contributes to its lethality
It is a logical shape.
Maximum area for propellant.
Graduated pressure push (due to conical shape)
Self centering.
Also Maximun strength for containing explosive.
ouch my ears
I never expected a 8cm HE-Shell doing so little damage. Thanks for the simulations. Eye-opening as they are so often.
Mortar. High-trajectory, low velocity. Sometimes very low velocity
@JD-tn5lz if this guy is a war thunder player, i think he knows that the most damaging part of an HE round such as a mortar is not the velocity lol
It is not actually doing "little damage" if the top of the Vehicle was packed with troops. The design and purpose of that round is to spread out and around, not down. If the warhead with the same amount of explosive were redesigned by shaping the charge to go down in a narrow beam, it would cut through the 30mm of steal like it was nothing.
@@edl653that wouldn't be a fragmentation shell anymore, and therefore would hit from the front and not from a high arc, and wouldn't penetrate at a slight angle I believe
@@edl653 If my grandmother had wheels, she would be a bike.
Of course this would be devestating for tank riding troops, of course it would do significantly more damage with a shaped charge. I was directly referring to the simulation in the video. Nothing else.
In short: It'll *REALLY* get your attention, but you'll live.
Awesome stuff, Sir. Thanks for taking the time to put these together.
Request: B-4 howitzer vs King Tiger's roof & frontal armor?
the roof is very dead, but if there is support for the idea I can do it
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 Perhaps to check the extent of damage to the reserved ammo inside hull?
@@n.o.n.e4149
That's too long of a distance to simulate.
Maybe an edge shot, right at a corner?
or how big could the hole be
I would personally be very interested in seeing more battleship armor tests. Interesting how the different layers of armor interact with the projectile.
0.5kg explosive was around the same as Soviet AT hand-grenade, rated to penetrate 20mm of armor.
Edit: Actually ~0.75kg explosive with ~25mm armor penetration.
Shows how blast direction plays such an important role.
Actually, it would be a little more. The RPG-40, which was among the most common AT grenades, and I presume is what you are referring to had about 760 grams of TNTe, with penetration of about 25 mm of armour. Its successor, the RPG-43 and RPG-6 had about 75mm and 100mm of penetration using a shaped charge, and would have definitely gone through this if the warhead lands properly aligned.
@@xxfalconarasxx5659 Oh right. I forgot the actual number. I just remembered it was around the same as a 75mm HE round.
I called it on the poll, when most didn't. I was aware that the RPG-40 anti tank grenades had a penetration rating of about 25 mm, and had an explosive mass of 750 grams of TNTe. So with the WG-34 having less explosive mass than that, at 500 grams of TNTe, and the KV-1 having more than 25 mm of roof armour, about 30-40 mm, I figured it wouldn't be able to go through. A WG-40 on the other hand, which has about 2000 grams of TNTe might be able to penetrate. I wonder if we could see a simulation on that one.
A 122mm mortar I assume? 🤔
Meanwhile everyone in the tank is now even more deaf than before.
Let’s hope the workers at the plant didn’t mess up the hardening on your specific tank.
Can you test what would happen to an Abrams getting hit with consecutive cannon balls?
nobody gonna talk about the fins just staying there menacingly
It has been discussed, check the comments again.
A lot of people do, but your eardrums has been blasted and you can’t hear it.
I'm curious, not about this video but actual penetration simulators. Do these take into account the hardness and density of the materials in the armor and / or ammo? And what distance are the shots from? In my opinion it should be 2km but it's OK if it's not.
It's not just a "penetration simulator", it's engineering software. And yes, it takes into account the simplest physical parameters, but also takes into account more complex ones, such as stress triaxiality, strain rate sensitivity...
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 Aha. Thank you for letting me know because I was really unsure if this was a reliable source to find such simulations.
Could you do a 57 mm ZIS-4 (BR-271) vs 85 mm ZIS-S-53 (BR-365A) The target could be a Tiger I lightly angled. I would think the pen would be similar but the post pen is a whole different league.
I can almost hear the "In nomine Patre et Filius et Spiritus Sancti." after the impact.
Can you do a round simulation of m1 thumper vs t90M at 1000 meters? I'm the one who asked you for the t30 vs tiger 2 simulation
So what would. Happen if you were sitting inside the tank when it hits?
Could you simulate the damage a burst from a 23mm gun from a ZSU 23 could do to composite armor of an MBT ?
I would love to see the LOSAT missle simulated against something, or what ERA would do to the missle.
Hey man, do you think simulations such as this could ever be incorporated in a video game? Do you need a powerfull hardware to calculate all of this?
It takes several dozen hours to do something like this. I don't think that in the next hundred years it will be possible to do something like this in game
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 oh lol
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 lmao, thanks for answer 🙂
Nice
120mm mortar?
Or 82mm on Leo hull top?
I would like to suggest a simulation of 50mm ap round vs m1a2 abrams side skirt (around 30mm ar550 steel) + side hull (around 80mm ar550 steel), as the armour and thickness are classified, this is a closer thickness specification and steel hardness.
could you do a simulation of a T-64A Obr. 1981 getting hit by M774 APFSDS fired by a M60A1(RISE) from a distance in between the 1780 meters and 1800
The shell hitting exactly where the headlight is
The angle of attack should be of 66 degrees
please and thank you
Please, make simulation when HE hit barrel (2А46 on T-90 for example)
In War Tunder HE deals little damage to the barrel
You should try a simulation of HEAT against diamond. I've seen a few simulations but it was against KE munitions
I have a hard time picturing this as I don't get how severe is ear drum rapturing. Are they "only" knocked out and deaf for life or are they having severe concussions, incapable of fighting and likely dead without medical help?
They might lose hearing, but honestly due to the limitations of such a test I suspect on a real tank such a mortar hit wouldn't even cause enough overpressure to rupture eardrums, as most of the components and extra plates that would limit the plates movements or absorb shock aren't present. I could dig up old overpressure tests on soviet tanks over the weekend, they're publicly available
Have you done 155mm HE proxy fuse on top of tank turret?
What programs do you use to make these?
I wanted to ask what software you use for the simulations. I need it to do my own experimental simulations.
He uses ANSYS; there's even a tutorial & advice on his channel about using it.
Ok thanks
how you make this animations? i need tutorial! i want make it
what software are you using for this? Ansys?
Yes
How much protection would the crews head gear give?
That's a valid question... I'm guessing not enough to prevent their eyeballs popping out and brain damage from the overpressure...but I'm no expert. The driver might might live through it, especially if he's wearing his padded leather helmet with ear protection, because he's a bit further from impact and has more material between him and the shockwave.
@@pex_the_unalivedrunk6785 this overpressure wouldn't have that affect on the crew
I would like to see the fragmentation pattern of a 20mm Hispano HEI shell 🤗
So, without ear protection crew members in the turret takes damage. And if they would have any ears protect - crew members pobably be fine?
I want to know too. Probably a concussion.
You have to look at the colours the pressure is pretty high in the turret so there would be more than just a headache. 115 000 pa pressure to the head isn't fun.
You should be comparing the overpressure; the peak pressure when subtracting base atmospheric pressure.
115 kPa - 98 kPa is the listed 17 kPa value, less than half the stated threshold.
@@nikolaanicic3944Right. The pressure is also only only there for a few milliseconds, since it’s just a shockwave from the bending metal and not from expanding gases.
How do i get this simulation
C L A N G
How about 120mm mortar next?
Will this be fatal ?
А вот это было действительно интересно...
what's the program or software do you use for this?
Ansys
One of my uncles was the gunner in an M10 tank destroyer during WW2. He told me how HE rounds going off against the armor would make your ears ring.
how to make simulation like this?
Wonder what that overpressure would be in decibels.
Online converters for Pascals to dB say 17000 Pa is around 178 dB, but I don't think it is a correct number. Most sources place eardrum rupture at 160-165 dB and it is 35000 Pa as per the video.
Any acoustics nerds here? :D
A cursory look tells me it's not as simple as just putting a peak overpressure into an SPL dB calculator. Especially because it's an impulse. I found this one study that references the 35 kPa value used in the video as a legacy blast criteria value and mentions 20 kPa as the P1 (probability of 1%, any kind of rupture: minor, moderate, severe) value, while a graph in the study lists 48~55 kPa (7~8 PSI) overpressure as the lowest instant (0.1 ms) pressure with P50. The 35 kPa figure matches the conservative estimate for prolonged exposure. (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2497697/#:~:text=A%20P50%20for%20humans%20of,moderate%2C%20and%20major%20eardrum%20ruptures.)
As i predicted, nothing but slight concussion
Well, that's quite expected.
CTA: *crew shocked*
most interesting is not effect on the armor, but fragmentation of the shell.
When you ring the doorbell to loud
That would be a very loud bang
Have you a pressure analysis of 25mm HE from a Bradley Chaingun on a T90. Was curious how much their ears would be ringing after that recent clip.
Insignficant?
Nothing. My favourite is people still think the Bradley penetrated the T90 when you can see it drive off in another video and then the crew bail out.
We didnt even scratch them,hehehe.
Gates Of Hell Moment
Game?
This makes me wonder about HESH being replaced by HE in War Thunder in higher tier vehicles...
you have to keep in mind that this thing only has half a kilo of TNT, the main purpose being fragmentation to fight infantry. the HE shells on modern MBTs pack anywhere from 3 to over 5 kilos of TNT equivalent
Smoothbore gun can't use hesh
@@bearxd780 Oh really?
If engineers succeeded in making APFSDS and HEAT fire from rifled cannon barrels, then you can surely make a HESH that spins on its own, by e.g. adding tilted fins...
@@edi9892 In order for a HESH shell to work as designed, that is, to pancake on the target and then explode after a short delay, the velocity has to be within a pretty narrow velocity range, between about 550 and 750 m/s.
Unfortunately, that muzzle velocity is far too low for APFSDS rounds. The British went around this problem by having two types of propellant charges: a semi-circular half-charge for firing HE and HESH, and a circular charge for APFSDS.
@@edi9892 Now you could, in theory, produce a fin-rotated HESH round. Indeed, even APFSDS rounds have fins which are canted to impart a very minor spin on the projectile. The issue there is that such an arrangement increases drag, meaning reducing range and potentially accuracy.
Do KT front plate V super pershing HVAP
Do Panzer III frontal armor vs Polish cavalry going in 1000 km/h
there are any shape charged mortar?
I am not aware of this, but the bomblets in cluster munitions often have a shaped charge down with fragments all around. NATO 40mm grenades are like this, too - they can do 50mm of RHA if I recall correct.
Демьян, делай больше видео по танкам и орудиям времен ВМВ
now an M120, 120mm
Shook it off
An interesting simulation would be T-72A's hull and turret vs 450-500mm pen shaped charge, I.E early TOW, Milan, Konkurs, 120mm NATO heatfs, 125mm 440mm heatfs
120 mm vs MRCAVE tank
Plz
KV-1 ze best tonk with survivability build
Good to know that if I put 30mm of armor as the top cover of my foxhole, I'll be proof against a Kraut mortar. ;-)
Do the 120 mm mortar
bruh i once saw a kv1 in warthunder take a sc250 to the turret top and live with a broken track and a fucked up fuel tank
how about a 120mm on a modern tank?
120mm is a common caliber for tanks today, you'll have to be more specific than that
120mm mortat ofc@@Elbowbanditest2003
That small caliber mortar is not much stronger than an ordinary handgranade.. so it would be a real shitty heavy tank if it really got serious damage from an direct hit
12 cm heavy german mortar 💀💀💀
Думаю что экипаж сильно контузило
Если не хуже
Great simulation, as always.
How about the 38cm Sturmtiger shell vs an IS-2, or maybe something heavier.
I would have to model the entire tank
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174Not saying you should try it, but any idea how long it would take to run a simulation of that scale? I imagine it’d be impractically long.
@@christianmichael4020 1000 hours... that's my guess, it really depends on accuracy.
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 I thought modelling the entire shell might've been an issue, nevermind the tank. We'll just have to use our imaginations then. Btw, would getting a better PC speed up these simulations? Or are the limitations software-related.
@@abdulalsalay To significantly increase performance, you need a workstation, +100 cores, etc
You don't have to kill the vehicle if you injure the crew.
T30 HE projectile vs tiger II roof
Soviet 120mm mortar vs tiger
Hit!
Bonk!
I knew it!
prerty sure half the damage would be caused by the fins slamming in
KV2: "eardrums ruptured, skull ruptured, body ruptured, organ failure, stage 3 cancer, explosion of tissues, syphilis/HIV/tetanos/cyanide/fentanyl, distorsion of atoms, decapitation, total water evaporation, oxygen and hydrogen explodes
(You only care about the overpressure)
Bonked
I knew tanks just ignoring this shit in Men of War was BS lmao
Just a fucking 3 cm steel
Cześć. Niesamowite że na tak drobne części się to rozywa. To straszne
Do tego są zaprojektowane granaty moździerzowe. Współczesne dodatkowo mają zapalniki różnego rodzaju, np powodujące eksplozję na wysokości kilku metrów.
My ears
turret t72vs dm53
do it with 105mm
in game "enlisted" 80mm mortar can kill tank. but it ininteresting
In game? What game? This video isn't about a game
Убить не убьёт но кантузит 100%
deadly not but for the commander pretty deaf
People often underestimate the effectiveness of even light artillery as anti-armour
КВ-1 хорош
wish "arcadey" video games like cod would stop showing mortars destroying tanks (unless the caliber is sufficiently large or its a HEAT round ofc)
Small man portable mortars like this are ANTI INFANTRY WEAPONS. It would also give game devs a reason to add some lesser known anti-tank weapons for players to use and make the game interesting, like the Granatebusche or the sturmpistole with HEAT warhead. Thats part of the reason I love playing enlisted. Its realistic enough to suit my desires and has a bunch of wacky lesser known weapons and even one off prototypes.
8cm mortars can destroy tanks in Enlisted though.
@@PineCone227_ I could have sworn they can't, or at least not consistently. I think it depends on the explosive mass. Or maybe the ones in enlisted secretly have HEAT warheads...
The tanks I see getting killed by mortars in enlisted are usually the ones with exceptionally weak roof armor tho.
Predictable. This would require a siege mortar.
Eh, I'm sure a 4.6" or a 120mm would do a little more than just get attention. Hard telling.
Not just much heavier, but usually a little higher velocity upon termination.
Thing is, mortar rounds carry more payload per caliber than tube artillery. They don't have to concern themselves as much with G forces in the design as with "conventional" artillery.
No. It wouldn't require much more than the 80mm shown here.
At that point it's just massive brain damage if you're lucky shrapnel doesn't come through 😐...
The overpressure here is comparable to someone shouting. You get brain damage a lot from ppl shouting you're wrong, do you?
I swear Trash Thunder players have literally no reading comprehension. The guy spells it out for you that the impact wouldn't even cause a headache and yet there's like 3-4 people in the comments talking about "brain damage" and "concussion"
@@LolTollhurst We get it you're a virgin you know a lot about shit no one cares about 🤡
@@johnhighway7399 We get it virgin you don't touch grass you play video game a lot and know mediocre information good for you that will never benefit you 🤡
@@johnhighway7399 I think people are having trouble discerning the terms used; a more layman-friendly way of presenting the info would be to highlight "overpressure" again for the threshold.
Hmm, kinda disappointing honestly. It wasn't even close.
The crews ears in question:
Yes a small explosive which is intended for light targets is not effective against a heavy tank
Whreraboos mad.
What do you expect from a low-velocity, HE shell?
@@tk-5268 of course it's not insignificant, the crew certainly wouldn't be having a fun time. it's just it isn't very exciting to watch is all.