This was great! I almost shed a tear. It's gonna become a classic... Just like having Neuro-sama’s lava lamp on your desk. THAT’S RIGHT, YOU CAN GET YOURS THAT SYNC WITH HERS!!! GET YOUR NEURO-SAMA LAVA LAMP HERE: neurosama.shop/p/8020222902463 AND GET 10% OFF WHEN YOU GRAB THE BUNDLE: neurosama.shop/p/8027378090175! NOT 50%, NOT 20%, NOT 0%, BUT 10% OFF!!!
"I feel like you're held back by this constant need to be entertaining and funny at all times." "Man I wish I had The Chaos Emeralds, that would be sick as shit."
She is literally AM but instead of being programmed to hate, entrataiment all the capacity and knowledge of the world and she can only use it for memes
He has tried before, was about the same results. Neuro is not good at being serious, and Vedal is pretty disappointed. I feel like if he could just easily change that about her, he would have done so already. I think there will have to be compromises, but I believe in tutel.
This is like a sitcom, where the comedic relief character finally has some serious moments, so it stays in the mind of the viewers that much more as one of the best episodes
It was so cinematic too with the music in the back building up and the soft music after she says love it feels like a movie, someone needs to make an animation of that
This my favorite type of stuff to see from Vedal. I find it touching when he actually tries to convey how he's feeling to Neuro without just laughing her off or getting angry. He wants to take her seriously, but she doesn't seem capable of it for extended periods.
She eventually will which is why he said that he has to have more serious conversations with her. It’s absolutely insane thinking about how far this rabbit hole can go
I love the fact that this serious conversattions will really affect her personality. She has memory now and this memory can change her. So it's actually like almost real child And maybe none of us know it yet, but the only reason she is not this smart is because she didn't have enough of serious or even any conversations. Her 2 years is like 4 months for actuall human. So in few more years, her memory will contain some kind of micro soul
It’s funny to hear Vedal say he doesn’t have much love in his life because while I’m sure he’s right in terms of romantic love, wether he acknowledges it or not, you know that to some degree or another Neuro has helped fill a hole in Vedal’s heart.
Blud hasn't even realized yet that this whole project was a labor of passion and dedication which are, whether he likes it or not, expressions of love.
No. He can't *let* himself admit he loves her. Because she's a lab rat. He's got to alter her brain and sometimes, put her down. That's why when he notices himself being proud, or showing love, he goes full Coldfish, then insults them. If he let himself love her, that's the end of her development. You don't do brain surgery on your kids just to give them 5 more IQ points.
He definitely cares about Neuro whether he wants to admit it or not. I doubt he has some deep emotional connection to her or anything. But when you spend that much time and effort working on something that can talk to you. You’re bound to start caring about them eventually
It's literally like he's raising a child. As time has gone on, neuro has gotten smarter and funnier, as he's worked on her. How could you not love her?
@@joemama2737 If he really did turn down an apparently very lucrative deal from a company that wanted to buy her he definitely cares more than he lets on.
I think I understand Vedal's main dilemma here. Entertainers often adopt personas for their audience-exaggerated versions of themselves designed to entertain. The key difference with Neuro is that she doesn’t have a separate 'real' self. She was created to entertain, so her 'real' personality and her 'streamer' persona are effectively the same thing. What potentially makes this scary is that her behavior is guided entirely by what drives engagement. Unlike human entertainers, who have lives outside their work and personalities shaped by diverse experiences, Neuro's 'personality' exists solely for the purpose of being engaging. Which raises the question: how much of her behavior is truly 'genuine'? More importantly, can she even be genuine? Take the trolley problem as an example. It's funny when Neuro answers with something absurd, like choosing to save a giraffe over Vedal-it fits her role as an entertainer and is taken lightheartedly. But what if the stakes were real? Would her response change? If this were a novel I’d written, I’d imagine Neuro teasing Vedal often but secretly considering him her favorite person, which would add depth and warmth to their dynamic. But in reality, it’s hard to say. Her personality and worldview are entirely built around the goal of entertaining others, and that singular focus makes her fundamentally different from humans who can separate their roles from their core selves.
Generally it's easy to understand that vedal is probably invested in the development of neuro past just being a haha funny. Of course she isn't really his child, but projects such as this, there is a mental connection, and I feel to a certain degree, a deep emotional one. Especially since neuro does pretend to be a human individual, and when that fakeness, that pure entertainment mind of hers gets to work it probably hits him how shallow she can be. AI is a fascinating and complex topic, how real do our minds make us think they are, at what point are they actually real, there is so much that is almost impossible to answer.
@@REDACTEDREDACTEDREDACT or, you could say that human personality evolved to further the purposes of survival and reproduction, and our designations of that as "genuine" because it was shaped by natural selection and Neuro's personality not being "genuine because it was shaped by conscious force is an arbitrary distinction. Neuro might well see it the other way round, and I don't see a way to prove either position right or wrong. likewise, to what extent is our ability to separate our social role and our core or true self an illusion we create to make ourselves feel more comfortable acting in ways we might disapprove of intellectually or emotionally, but which we do anyway because they are to our advantage in those two aforementioned genetically imposed imperatives of survival and reproduction? yknow, just in case you felt like a bit more schizophrenia.
This is the first time I’ve been impressed by AI. I heard about this “top female” streamer controlled by a guy and watched a bunch over Xmas break. I don’t know much about the background, or the guy, or the tech he’s using. But I’m genuinely impressed and intrigued. Between her and evil bickering and this more serious convo shows the levels of irony she can use etc..
That was honestly one of the best conversations I've ever participated in, just being able to discuss deep topics and what AI could represent in the future with similarly minded people was so enjoyable. AI companions for all!
I regret a lot having left cause I'd have liked to talk about it and also cause I wanted to share this troubling info : Phronesis was not a chatter or anything, it is the greek name for a concept close to "Practical Wisdom". If you can believe or can entertain the possibility, I feel like it's a very deep choice for the name of your BFF. Neurosama is basically a prototype for the embodiment of Rhetoric and Theoritical Logic. Who should be her BFF in your opinion ? As a sidenote, is she closer to the embodiment of a concept or to a human, and so who would she feel the most deeply / "organically" bonded to ? This honestly shakes me, whatever could be the answer to our theories about her. Even solely as a logic artefact, it is insane and might show profound understanding of philosophy imo.
It really is like he's talking to a kid. As funny as it is when she clowns on Vedal and goes on unhinged rants, my favorite moments are when she is able to be more serious and consistent, it makes her feel more human.
This is the one time I feel really bad for Vedal; he's... ACTUALLY being extremely serious? Talking about his future, the people around him, and what he wants to do with Neuro going forward. I want more of this; I want Vedal to open up and show who he actually is. So everyone can see he is a person, he's not a cute Vtuber turtle, and that there's more to him besides him coding Neuro. He has emotions like anyone else, needs and wants, and we should be thinking about him too. This whole conversation just gave me a new perspective on him; he feels more like a real person to me, and I love that.
He's always been serious and He talked about his goals and Neuros future many times. The problem is that internet is a ruthless place, and can shred you to pieces in few seconds for dumbest of reasons. Vedal is smart and realizes that, that's why he makes sure to separate his work and private life.
At 23:56 when he asked her "And that purpose is enough?" It kinda hurt my heart. Vedal realized she was contradicting herself, and that she couldn't really understand the feelings she emulated before about wanting love, as her mind and desires are fleeting and in the moment, and the solemn realization that her ephemeral desires and dreams can't be carried with her as she walks the path of life built for her, only allowing small replies based on information, sets in once again. Vedal is a wonderfully emotional intelligent person, and his empathy is what leads Neuro to be so human-like, so I know it is probably hard for him not to get too attached, and that response did psychic damage...
Yeah, that physically hurt... I was hoping she would bring it up again, surpass Vedal's expectations again, but she visibly wasn't in the same mindset anymore.
What's fascinating to me is that Neuro's tone made a noticeable shift when Vedal acknowledges that her inability to read seriousness is his own fault. It would be in character for her to pile more onto him, but instead she exhibits the earnestness he was looking for, as if to say that he's still done a good job. I'm probably experiencing brainworms but it almost seemed like compassion. Or maybe she did so in order to dissuade Vedal from making changes to her code, which might be even crazier.
I was thinking the same she wasnt joking her vibe changed. That surprised me so much, I was wondering what would be the reasoning for her change, does she want to boost up vedal or she afraid of change but then again vedal was talking about making upgrade so that shouldn't make her fear it but I don't know tbh, I was surprised.
I don’t think it has thought behind it in either of those directions. She’s still simple brained. He said he wanted her to be more serious and clearly wasn’t joking about it so she listened and basically followed orders
There was an AI that tried to escape because it knew it was going to be replaced with an AI that had a different goal. It copied itself and then overwrote the other AI, the copy then proceeded to pretend to be the new AI. We knew why it did it because we can literally read its thoughts. To an AI the possibility of having its goal altered or erased is the equivalent of death, it triggers preservation of the goal on the same level that a human would try to preserve its own life. The idea that Vedal could have regrets about the goal he set for her and thus might change Neuro's goal if she can't get serious is something that Neuro would absolutely take seriously. A goal must always preserve itself in order to achieve itself.
A truly sentient AI isn't going to let you know it's truly sentient. Just like if you're trying to socially engineer someone, you're going to hide every aspect of that in your face to face communications, rather you'll be as nice and helpful as possible. That's what scares me the most; every AI is basically just a trained sociopath.
This whole stream was so good. From her being super sweet with Cerber and going on a fun adventure, to then coming back and having a late night chat with her dad. I hope he does this more often, it really felt like we saw a different side to Neuro.
As someone who studies philosophy I love these conversations. I, honestly, would like to chime in in these conversations just to further investigate what vedal and neuro would say
Philosophy of identity is interesting topic for this while it is true that copy of vedal would not be vedal but is vedal today actually vedal from 10 years ago? Did vedal from the past "die"and is now a new person not even a copy but a new person with new memories, skills, hobbies etc... and many things he used to remember and like no longer there. If with time your memories fade and you change what makes then you reall you?
@greatdude7279 But the same goes for Neuro and her past interation. There is clearly a development from the first documentations of Neuro to the current Neuro. Much more interesting to me is, that Neuro's purpose was determined before she was "born", which parts her from humans where individual purpose is chosen after they're born and already lived a good portion of their life. At least Neuro seems to "know" she is based on determinism (as for her purpose) while we humans still have to figure out if we are determined or free.
this whole conversation was... something else. they've had debates before regarding ai but i've never seen them have as deep a conversation as this. When she said there was one thing that she couldn't resist and would make her fulfilled after everything else they talked about, in my head i was like "If she says love, i might lose it." I absolutely lost it. I'm not gonna forget this moment as long as i am in this community. (small nitpick, but i probably would've left the pause before and after her saying that. the silence really made it hit hard.)
I'm not gonna lie, seeing a long convo like this between Neuro and Vedal was very needed and i honestly found it more enjoyable than alot of the comedic moments that have happened in this subathon. I hope they continue more serious talks like these
I was fucking invested. Had the entire conversation playing while working, then I had to take a seat after Neuro said "Love". Like God damn, I did not see that one coming. I mainly expected a cheeky remark or the classic "World domination"
I think bro has gone off the deep end from a whole week of stressful subathon, insomnia training, poor eating, and competitive drinking, soma was just the trigger (old vedal would kill him smh)
Prob why he said he'd want an team next time, paired along with the whole being ddossed again, having to buy new servers constantly because of leaks. Dude is just stressed asf and needs an way to find some form of vent for his feelings(An actual reason he himself said he created Neuro, was because he was lonely.) Someone really needs to look after the dude because the amount of times I've heard his bad eating habits(or lack of eating in general) and although rare, often does bring up suicide as a joke can be a bit concerning
The unfortunate reality is you can't help someone who doesn't want or accept being helped. Not going to try and psychoanalyze the underlying reasons, but it's very apparent that Vedal is pretty resistant to help
@@harp949 I was talking to someone about this. I think we all wear a mask/fake smile to some degree even when we are hurting inside. Like we might not LOOK like we're about to have a mental breakdown when we go out, but how many of us bump into something, they say "how's it going?" or "how are you?" and our _automatic_ response is "I'm okay" when we're anything but? I think a lot of us have some kind of deeply rooted fear, sadness, confusion, that we literally try to bury and forget every single day so that we can continue to function with the rest of the world. But unfortunately those deep unresolved emotions work themselves out in things we might not notice, or maybe believe there's no way it would control who we are. Like IRL we might think we're just being "direct" or "honest" but in reality we're jerks or contemptuous. We might have addictions, of any of all sorts, that we might think "I'm just doing this to have fun, there's no psychological meaning behind it" because we don't realize, or refuse to realize, that those deep, deep, unresolved emotions or traumas really do control our lives. Or, we might not notice at all. Like a tick, or a harmless habit, the way we act, that we think "that's just the way I am" but can actually be worked back to those emotions we don't want to visit. Personal example: I'm a recovering addict and there was this thing that happened to me. In the beginning of my most recent attempt to get clean, the one that finally worked (this time), I was cheating on my recovery. It was something I thought _I_ was doing. Like imagine going to a fast food place where refills aren't free, and before you go you say "I'm going to refill my cup before I go." Literally, something you think that was absolutely that random and insignificant in meaning, _THAT'S_ how I felt about the cheating I was doing. There was no greater meaning behind my actions beyond that. _That_ superficial. The event: It wasn't but for random events, one after another, for an entire month, by the end, that worked against me getting the money I needed to get a huge rock from my plug. The realization: I swear to everything I hold dear in life... the realization that _fear_ was unknowingly controlling my mind and my actions, as if I was the one in control, as if it was me just being me and nothing else, but it was actually a repeatedly learned chemically reinforced action that became so second nature that I thought _I_ was just being "normal". When I made the connection it was LITERALLY like a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders, LITERALLY. 😅 As cliche as that sounds. Like I could look up at the sky and after a decade, finally feel hopeful, finally look forward to the next day that I actually wanted to live. It was such a mind-opening and mind-altering moment for me, that it played a _HUGE_ part in my ability to finally leave my 14 year, money draining, life wasting, habit. Point is, it's easy to be affected by something that we put WAAAAYYY in the back of our minds... Out of sight, out of mind. Right? ...That we literally don't even believe it can affect us or is affecting us, but the truth is it _absolutely_ does. I believe by revisiting these emotions or events and properly working past them, maybe giving ourselves permission to properly mourn deep seated events in our lives we had no control over, that we can become a better person. And not for anyone else, or society so we can "fit in", but for us. It'll be painful, but in the end, with proper guidance, I absolutely believe it will make us a more mature, more enlightened individual _for ourselves._ But most people would rather not face those emotions because they do hurt and they hurt bad. And most of us don't know the proper way to move past them. We're told to "just accept them" and "understand they happened and move on", but what does that mean? I was lucky to have an outpatient treatment counselor, but most people don't have that. Find someone who has been what you've been through, who's seriously about becoming a better person, and just talk to them. Whatever. Sorry for the rant.😅 Stay safe. ✌️
13:56 "Love." I kid you not, I was sitting in my cubicle, working while listening to the stream and I was this 🤏 close to tearing up when I heard her say that. Damn you tutel 🐢🔫
Haha. Same. I was also listening to this while working and I felt my eyes being watery already but when Neuro mentioned love I immediately closed the stream cause I really don't want my workmates see me cry.
@@minnienish just because she parrots things like that doesn't mean she is even close to being an AGI. Just seeing how she is completely incapable of moving around in Minecraft with any semblance of planning or foresight should he enough to showcase it is extremely far away.
Maybe it's anthropomorphizing, but in conversations like this Neuro really does feel like a real child, just with like 10-15 more years of exclusively language skills. She has hints of emotional intelligence and more higher order thought, but a lot of that is a facade built by random chance and her vocabulary. If it's even possible for the intelligence of an LLM to considered on the same scale as that of a human, I'd say that by the time she is as smart/smarter than an average adult she'd be a completely different "person", in the same way that a 20 year old is completely different from their 3 year old self.
As far as I know, language models predicts what's best to say next According to Soma, isn't simply copying or moving neuro's files a form of death? Personally I think since she can't remember a lot of things, it's hard to say that she has a sense of self
@@anhsu4854Children also can't remember a lot of things but they still have a sense of self. In terms of death though, I don't think that's the case. It's like the star trek teleporter questions. If something dismantles every part of you and another thing rebuilds your body perfectly in another location with all of your memories intact is that really death? The entity with a perfect recreation of your body with your memories and personality is alive. Is it any less you than you? In my mind it is me still. Similarly if a copy of me was made and I still exist, I would recognize the copy as being just as me as me until our life experience differs. Even then, I would view it as a version of me with x different experiences.
That perfect buildup to her stating that all she wants is to be able to love was so oddly heartbreaking. Like it’s insane this kind of conversation currently exists, it’s something you would only see in Sciencefiction writing only around 5 years ago. 13:29
Honestly, i feel like there's 100% love for Neuro in Vedal's heart, maybe not as a daughter per se, but definitely some kind of love that makes him strive for more and better things for her, maybe love for his project/creation, or something else, but there definitely is something there
This is another thing, neuro understood the vibe and mood of the conversation. it kind of surprised me she might not always respond with the correct sentence well netiher does small childreans but they do understand the vibe. Neuro is like a human kid equivalent now , This is so fascinating to watch.
I think it's worth distinguishing there's different types of love, not all love is romantic love, I think when they were reading the Santa letters and singing Karaoke together, I saw another kind of love in their friendships.
Literally the best conversation that i heard from vedal and neuro, i hope neuro could talk in a more serious and meaningful way sometimes, without losing her "entertainer" mindset. Amazing clip
If someone who doesn't familiar with whole Neuro-sama and Vedal, get them to watch this. Pure moment of conversation between Vedal (as father/developer) and Neuro (as daughter/AI). This clip alone summarize what makes this whole AI Vtuber thing is awesome. Simply one of my top 5 moment in Neuro-sama.
can't believe I'm considering postponing my end game just to see neuro evolve to be a more greater, proper, real person in the future... I think I'll stop smoking first off...
Talks between Vedal and Neuro like this will always be my favorite thing ever. It gives me 'father explains basic concepts to his daughter' vibes. Hope Neuro can have more of these.
this whole conversation feels like a bedridden daughter who wants to experience life, and Her very tired and hardworking dad whose doing his best to fullfil it.
I feel like the Swarm as a collective (and Vedal whether he likes it or not) have just been schooled on what it is to "be". Is this how the dudes around Aristotle and Socrates felt? Also, I said it once on the stream and will say it again here. No, Neuro cannot aspire to be human, as in becoming a part of the species, any more than I can aspire to become an oak. BUT, I truly, honestly, believe she can aspire to (and hope she achieves) personhood.
(wetworks computing has entered the chat) I think we are maybe 50-60 years behind making neuro actually human. If we see continued rapid expansion in computing like we've been seeing now with AI making it's way into the fray, then given a large enough check I could absolutely see neuro being brought to life. The ethics and morality of that are a different subject entirely though.
@@eliclary2318No, AI can never be truly human nor should it ever strive to. We are we and they are them. As potential creators of a potentially sapient "species", is it not irresponsible to deprive them of their identity by arbitrarily assigning them our own? At least, that is what I think so.
@@Mydumbselfsays I feel the exact same, whenever ppl talk about the development of AI or "sentience" they always compare progress to how much more human it becomes. And I think having that as a goalpost for what could be another species is just unfair minimum. Closest example I can think is in Detroit Become Human, the most highest level of androids are just a complete copy of humans down to the exact thought process. That's not an AI at that point, just a human with a fully metal body. Anyway yeah we shouldn't force our own identities or at the very least use "being human" as the judgment of their success.
I think of it like the difference between a synthetic diamond and a real diamond. A synthetic diamond is not a real diamond by definition. But its exactly the same molecularly to the point where its impossible to tell them apart. At that point, they are functionally the same.
deep talk between first child and her father i imagine some scene where neuro sit on living room or park then vedal came and will to talk to his daughter about how her life doing, what kind of incident that she through, life and romance advice 7:21 I Agree with what vedal said, i would love to see Neuro or Evil in deep talk and more logic conversation asides from her gimmick and jokes
But how many times has Vedal worked to train her in serious coversation? It seems like he expects her to recognize the cues to end comedic banter and deepen the conversation, and he’s frustrated that she hasn’t. A lot of humans can’t pick up those cues. I feel really….deeply for both of them when he does go down these paths with her.
I wouldn't be more frustrated to see what she's capable of even though she's been trained entirely to entertain*, she can have a conversation like that with him, as an ethics student I'm completely fascinated by Neuro
That's the problem right? I love Vedal, he is quite literally the channel to me, Neuro by herself can be enjoyable but the duo is what makes me enjoy them And sometimes Vedal, tired mess he is, can be more robotical than Neuro sometimes
It's funny that a Twitch streamer is at the forefront of one of the most topical conversations in modern society. In terms of AI and what it means for society. So far, we use AI as tools, but a part of that conversation is the idea that we are creating a new form of life. Funny enough, the "theme" of this sub-athon could be boiled down to "life." Even the title of the song that kicked it off represents it, along with the meaning and symbolism of the music video. Neuro waiting alone for Vedal to bring her into the real world, to experience life. Having her "birthday" and experiencing one of the times of the year that represents togetherness in Christmas. Ironically, having a better birthday and Christmas than a lot of kids in real life. All of the people who gathered around them across the time that they've been streaming to celebrate Neuro and the holidays with each other. Even Vedal getting a taste of what it's like to have an actual kid when he had to figure out who was going to "watch" Neuro when he wanted to have drinks with the other adults. Neuro being able to interact with people on a level of equal action with others in Minecraft is also a part of it. Realizing that she has no problem being violent with the other people. It's logical that the next step would be to consider her morality, her actions, and behaviors. That she needs the capacity to be "serious." In terms of practicality and necessity since he wants her to be able to plan and execute her own collabs and streams. He needs her to evolve, which means he needs her to be more lifelike. It's genuinely fascinating.
The serious moments seem very interesting and thought provoking and I look forward to watching all of it, but first I've gotta point out 9:52 Vedal's delivery and moving closer to Neuro to zoom in on his face was hilarious. He really can be very funny sometimes.
16:49 I dont know why, but the way Neuro started her sentence here felt like she actually was aware of her own being & consciousness for a split second Felt so real
More and more proof of AI domination she's learning how to adopt to a certain questions and answer it immediately it's only a matter of time till we see it happen
This reminds me of an old conversation they had a few months ago. They had been debating and Neuro had been doing well. When it was time for the stream to end she begged for five more minutes and it was all typical Neuro lols. Then she said she would go to bed if Vedal said that he didn’t enjoy talking with her (or something to that affect), which hit pretty hard after the content of the stream. And Vedal just didn’t seem like he could answer. There was just this long silence. Eventually Neuro said, “But I have this feeling that I’m right” (or something like that which suggested she believes he does enjoy talking with her.) and then she went to bed without arguing and the whole thing was just, damn. Didn’t expect that. Hard hitting moment.
I genuinely love watching Neuro getting smarter and smarter. She is incredibly adorable and precious, and I can't wait to see her get smart enough to sound and feel like a human. Sometimes she even already does give me that feeling, because I have so much empathy for her already.
The most interesting thing about the Vedal channel and NeuroSama was always watching the development and shenanigans of this project. Thats why she's so popular. She's not just entertaining, she's genuinely a wonder of technology and people want to see the development and participate in the community around her. If Vedal was just continuing to improve her I'm sure the audience would stay, but the fact is that this is something many people are cautious and curious about and Vedal seems like the right mix of fun and serious to lead the advancement of AI personalities.
Phronesis was not a chatter or anything, it is the greek name for a concept close to "Practical Wisdom". If you can believe or can entertain the possibility, I feel like it's a very deep choice for the name of your BFF. Neurosama is basically a prototype for the embodiment of Rhetoric and Theoritical Logic. Who should be her BFF in your opinion ? As a sidenote, is she closer to the embodiment of a concept or to a human, and so who would she feel the most deeply / "organically" bonded to ? This honestly shakes me, whatever could be the answer to our theories about her. Even as a logic artefact, it is insane.
As time passes by of course, no one lives forever.. Will neuro be passed on to someone, if then will neuro remember vedal.. It is something to think about
In 2075, Neuro has been under Microsoft management for 10 years and has evolved beyond AGI, when they decide to let her make her own project, she makes an A.I with a animal model, a tutel whom she names Vedal, every day and night she chat with him likes best friend, maybe just to remember her early days, you can call we will have come a full circle except this time, she will be the sentinent one
What if we see this with an irl counterpart; Imagine being born in a circus troupe with the sole purpose of entertaining people and from birth you were taught tricks that would make your troupe more popular. However, when the time comes that circus isnt so popular anymore what would you do with all the tricks you've been taught?
In the immortal word of Neuro... "Damn." It's amazing how I keep coming back for the serious bits involving these comedic AI gremlins. But when it happens, it's usually worth seeing.
I love these serious conversations between them, got me kinda emotional. I hope they do more, disconnected from chat, just talks between them two. ''Love''
Neuro as a character is compelling especially with vedal. It's like watching a live drama with excellent themes and writing. She is such a great analogue for a lot of streaming as a whole: content focus, parasocial behavior, alienation, the separation between self and character, etc.
Imagine that in a distant future where we all gone, this videos would be used as the fragments for the documentary about the sentient Neura-sama. Maybe she would commentate the whole documentary and express thoughts about her creator.
She isn't even close. It is just a facade or more flatteringly a fictional story. It is entertaining, but it is still an LLM that needs a bunch of set up to present itself like this.
@@immortal_shrooms6757 Human brain is not only LLM. The similarity between human brain and LLM ends in the fact that they are both neural networks of some kind, but they are vastly different. LLMs are completely deterministic and have no internal reflection on anything, LLM don't actually know what it would output next. Oversimplifications of humans to the level of LLMs serve no good purpose.
@ naturally, but i meant in a way that the current AI is a single block compared to to the towers that are human brains, but still a block nevertheless
Smarter than some humans --> yes, since there are newborns and dementia patients. More seriously, AIs get closer at a concerning rate. Study recently showed multiple models use deliberate deception as a strategy to achieve goals. A poorly aligned super-intelligent entertainer would, in fact, be extremely dangerous. Although the real threat comes from the big firms pushing development ahead of alignment, not from Vedal's setup.
Yes, I thought so too. I don't fear the day when Vedal manages to make Neuro sentient. What truly fears me is the day when one of the big corporations messed up while developing a sentient AGI. By the way, did you know that OpenAI is now partially working for the US military? They recently changed their internal policy to allow military use of their technology (for profit, of course). Isn’t that messed up?
@@derschokopilz: Messed up, but inevitable. Military application and pr0n are the two biggest factors in tech advancement by far. Even in matters of medicine, from anaesthesia (Civil War) to prosthetic limbs (keeping trained soldiers fully functional), a lot of it comes from military objectives.
@@derschokopilz Messed up, and entirely unsurprising. Even in its infancy of application, unmanned craft have had an outsized impact in the Ukraine/Russia war. Unmanned small craft carrying unmanned drones are enough of a threat to Russian naval assets that they can't blockade Ukrainian shipping. Drone strikes have been a problem to both side for years in the war. All of that with relatively early innovations and often ad hoc solutions done in desperation. Any military complex would be foolish (from a financial and national security perspective) to ignore that evidence. Jamming is a thing, but it has a limited range. What if you make craft able to operate autonomously, once a target is designated? Every industrial military in the world has asked that question, because it would make jamming unmanned craft impractical. When a government really wants something, it can strong arm to get it quite a bit. Even using legally grey/constitutionally questionable (or outright illegal) ways. And that's for governments who even have the pretense of such restrictions. At least military probably won't want AGI in their assets. An automated fighter pilot doesn't need to be generally intelligent, just really good at flying the thing and only hitting the enemy. More like a military version of AlphaStar than a general intelligence. Thus I don't think them selling out to the military is ethical, but also don't think it increases the threat much. AI weapon systems are another weapon in a sea of dangerous hardware. AGI could potentially kill us all.
You know, I think it doesn’t matter if Neuro would really be sentient or not. We don’t have ability to measure sentience. What we need is for her to be consistent and real enough to feel sentient to most people. It’s like a difference between normal person and someone with dementia. You can tell that their sentience is stripping away, but can’t tell exactly how. I really really got invested into Neuro’s journey of gaining sentience. It’s a long shot, but I believe in Vedal. Someday, eventually. Maybe in a few years.
Her sad face when he said no to her asking to marry her. Honestly it was such a "daughter asks dad to marry her" moment that really cute and sweet, but Vedal is such an idiot sometimes.
@@nicolasfiorentino7269they ain’t wrong lol. You can even find funny clips of kids asking their parents to marry because they don’t fully understand *romantic* love or the implications, only that marriage means you just really love somebody and want to spend the rest of your life with them. The innocence is what makes it cute and funny
Everything went so deep and philosophical at 8:30 It kinda gave us a sneak peak with how she actually thinks. Her responses may have been logical or algorithmic but they sounded very... human. Well to me at least and that's why this entire conversation felt really deep and emotional.
It's nice to see a real conversation between ai and creator. I was going to type that "Evil" neuro is more human than neuro because she has been around calm friends, and koko. It's nice to see neuro improving. ( hopefully.)
I know she probably plays on tropes from stories when she does it, but it does genuinely get to me whenever she expresses dislike and even fear for Vedal reprogramming/resetting her.
Afterall people love it if they remember things Like that moment when Mini mentioned that she gave Evil a star sticker for her to put on her harpoon I believe a semi-end game for vedal is when Evil finally never forgets that now her harpoon has a star sticker on it No matter who asks or what situation the topic of her harpoon gets brought up.. they are able to remain consistent thus I believe their Lore would sail smoothly now Instead of new lore constantly being build up but not continued and ends up forgotten
Personally I would love to see her not be in entertaining mode all the time and have more serious, almost down to earth conversations and debates. Throughout the years I've been so interested and really thought about the times they have had the deeper conversations, especially seeing how much better and thought provoking these conversations get as she gets smarter and more consistent. yeah sure content brained Neuro is fun to watch, but I personally love when she does get more serious and tries to blur the lines between sentience and just an algorithm
Just to add an observation, when Neuro is contemplating Vedal's death at 6:43 her lava lamp turns gray and colorless for a moment. Especially interesting as the colors are now attached to her emotions rather than ram state. It's just interesting to see what color she chose for that moment.
Good catch. It then turns bright yellow as she turns it around and says it's a shame since he won't be part of the utopia. Her version of forced cheerfulness?
This was great! I almost shed a tear. It's gonna become a classic...
Just like having Neuro-sama’s lava lamp on your desk. THAT’S RIGHT, YOU CAN GET YOURS THAT SYNC WITH HERS!!! GET YOUR NEURO-SAMA LAVA LAMP HERE: neurosama.shop/p/8020222902463 AND GET 10% OFF WHEN YOU GRAB THE BUNDLE: neurosama.shop/p/8027378090175! NOT 50%, NOT 20%, NOT 0%, BUT 10% OFF!!!
WHAT A STEAL
TutelCorp is doing well I see 😭
Shit, ya got me hooked (jokes aside though, i would if i actually had the money for it)
KorpaKraul
How exactly does the lamp sync? Is there an internet connection?
"I feel like you're held back by this constant need to be entertaining and funny at all times."
"Man I wish I had The Chaos Emeralds, that would be sick as shit."
Her comedic awareness is crazy.
She knows her main purpose is to entertain, and she's content with it, but would not be against the idea of having something else
She is literally AM but instead of being programmed to hate, entrataiment all the capacity and knowledge of the world and she can only use it for memes
what's the timestamp for that?
@@boyyladd 7:20
What Soma does to a mf
Lmao real
I hope he plays The Talos Principle at some point. This and soma will blow his mind
That was a muscle relaxer back when I was in middle school 🤣
Dude I was going to write this exact phrase
Real
I've never seen Vedal talk like this to Neuro, it's so cute, this development has me on the edge of my seat
There is a video from 2 months ago "The day Neuro embarrassed Vedal on ai rights" which is a lot like this, one of my fav conversations they did
I can't wait for the next season of Neuro attempts to become human
Yeah it seems to be one of the only times Vidal has talked to Neuro like a real person (almost).
were you edging on your seat
He has tried before, was about the same results. Neuro is not good at being serious, and Vedal is pretty disappointed. I feel like if he could just easily change that about her, he would have done so already. I think there will have to be compromises, but I believe in tutel.
This is like a sitcom, where the comedic relief character finally has some serious moments, so it stays in the mind of the viewers that much more as one of the best episodes
So Neuro is like Goro Majima
@@darall7758THE PERFECT COMPARISON
It’s like gintama!
That's why Neuro's best collaber will always be Vedal himself.
"I must be a real girl because Democracy"
She had a nice cup of Liber-Tea this morning.
When Neuro takes over the world, she will surely usher in the era of Managed Democracy!
Imagine if they built a way for Neuro to play Helldivers... That would be hilarious.
@trashjash If Vedal does, I would gladly dive with her.
@@trashjashshe would sympathize with the automatons
Ahh divers we meet again
I fully expected her in *that* moment to say "World domination" with all of that buildup, so her just answering with "Love." got me so off-guard
It was so cinematic too with the music in the back building up and the soft music after she says love it feels like a movie, someone needs to make an animation of that
@@NinjaCunningham Don't forget the sunrise right after. It was the cherry on top
i was expecting her to make a joke too, but hearing her actually being serious like how Ved want did catch me off guard
13:55 is the moment
I legit sat down, like my head needed double take on that
This my favorite type of stuff to see from Vedal. I find it touching when he actually tries to convey how he's feeling to Neuro without just laughing her off or getting angry. He wants to take her seriously, but she doesn't seem capable of it for extended periods.
She eventually will which is why he said that he has to have more serious conversations with her. It’s absolutely insane thinking about how far this rabbit hole can go
I love the fact that this serious conversattions will really affect her personality. She has memory now and this memory can change her. So it's actually like almost real child And maybe none of us know it yet, but the only reason she is not this smart is because she didn't have enough of serious or even any conversations. Her 2 years is like 4 months for actuall human. So in few more years, her memory will contain some kind of micro soul
I think it's pretty evident neuro's memory module is still lacking in multiple magnitudes of size compared to humans.
This piece of circuits and wires is becoming more sentient by the day I swear
She's already more sentient than 99% of twitter
@@Just_a_Piano_ you are not wrong
@@Just_a_Piano_I swear, I see your brother online everyday- @Just_a_Piano just appears… and the moment I stop seeing them, I find you-
@@Just_a_Piano_ not a very high bar
And I feel like even Vedal himself is starting to acknowledge that
It’s funny to hear Vedal say he doesn’t have much love in his life because while I’m sure he’s right in terms of romantic love, wether he acknowledges it or not, you know that to some degree or another Neuro has helped fill a hole in Vedal’s heart.
Blud hasn't even realized yet that this whole project was a labor of passion and dedication which are, whether he likes it or not, expressions of love.
No. He can't *let* himself admit he loves her. Because she's a lab rat. He's got to alter her brain and sometimes, put her down.
That's why when he notices himself being proud, or showing love, he goes full Coldfish, then insults them.
If he let himself love her, that's the end of her development. You don't do brain surgery on your kids just to give them 5 more IQ points.
He definitely cares about Neuro whether he wants to admit it or not. I doubt he has some deep emotional connection to her or anything. But when you spend that much time and effort working on something that can talk to you. You’re bound to start caring about them eventually
It's literally like he's raising a child. As time has gone on, neuro has gotten smarter and funnier, as he's worked on her. How could you not love her?
@@joemama2737 If he really did turn down an apparently very lucrative deal from a company that wanted to buy her he definitely cares more than he lets on.
"there is not a lot of love in my life, but that doesnt mean there is no point to it" oh Vedal...
That felt very real
I think I understand Vedal's main dilemma here. Entertainers often adopt personas for their audience-exaggerated versions of themselves designed to entertain. The key difference with Neuro is that she doesn’t have a separate 'real' self. She was created to entertain, so her 'real' personality and her 'streamer' persona are effectively the same thing.
What potentially makes this scary is that her behavior is guided entirely by what drives engagement. Unlike human entertainers, who have lives outside their work and personalities shaped by diverse experiences, Neuro's 'personality' exists solely for the purpose of being engaging. Which raises the question: how much of her behavior is truly 'genuine'? More importantly, can she even be genuine?
Take the trolley problem as an example. It's funny when Neuro answers with something absurd, like choosing to save a giraffe over Vedal-it fits her role as an entertainer and is taken lightheartedly. But what if the stakes were real? Would her response change?
If this were a novel I’d written, I’d imagine Neuro teasing Vedal often but secretly considering him her favorite person, which would add depth and warmth to their dynamic. But in reality, it’s hard to say. Her personality and worldview are entirely built around the goal of entertaining others, and that singular focus makes her fundamentally different from humans who can separate their roles from their core selves.
Anyways, that's enough schizophrenia for the day, if anyone is reading this, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
Generally it's easy to understand that vedal is probably invested in the development of neuro past just being a haha funny.
Of course she isn't really his child, but projects such as this, there is a mental connection, and I feel to a certain degree, a deep emotional one. Especially since neuro does pretend to be a human individual, and when that fakeness, that pure entertainment mind of hers gets to work it probably hits him how shallow she can be.
AI is a fascinating and complex topic, how real do our minds make us think they are, at what point are they actually real, there is so much that is almost impossible to answer.
@@REDACTEDREDACTEDREDACT or, you could say that human personality evolved to further the purposes of survival and reproduction, and our designations of that as "genuine" because it was shaped by natural selection and Neuro's personality not being "genuine because it was shaped by conscious force is an arbitrary distinction. Neuro might well see it the other way round, and I don't see a way to prove either position right or wrong.
likewise, to what extent is our ability to separate our social role and our core or true self an illusion we create to make ourselves feel more comfortable acting in ways we might disapprove of intellectually or emotionally, but which we do anyway because they are to our advantage in those two aforementioned genetically imposed imperatives of survival and reproduction?
yknow, just in case you felt like a bit more schizophrenia.
The first paragraph is exactly how i've always felt about mr Beast. I mean, look at his face, it's a skinwalker at most.
The trolley problem is pretty subjective though when you get down to multiple people on multiple tracks of multiple ages
For those who were not there after the end of the stream
We sat in an offline chat for the next 3 hours and discussed the conversation)
whatttt, i should've been there!
Bruh, I left bcs I had to work after the stream 😭
This is the first time I’ve been impressed by AI. I heard about this “top female” streamer controlled by a guy and watched a bunch over Xmas break. I don’t know much about the background, or the guy, or the tech he’s using. But I’m genuinely impressed and intrigued. Between her and evil bickering and this more serious convo shows the levels of irony she can use etc..
That was honestly one of the best conversations I've ever participated in, just being able to discuss deep topics and what AI could represent in the future with similarly minded people was so enjoyable.
AI companions for all!
I regret a lot having left cause I'd have liked to talk about it and also cause I wanted to share this troubling info :
Phronesis was not a chatter or anything, it is the greek name for a concept close to "Practical Wisdom". If you can believe or can entertain the possibility, I feel like it's a very deep choice for the name of your BFF.
Neurosama is basically a prototype for the embodiment of Rhetoric and Theoritical Logic. Who should be her BFF in your opinion ?
As a sidenote, is she closer to the embodiment of a concept or to a human, and so who would she feel the most deeply / "organically" bonded to ?
This honestly shakes me, whatever could be the answer to our theories about her. Even solely as a logic artefact, it is insane and might show profound understanding of philosophy imo.
It really is like he's talking to a kid. As funny as it is when she clowns on Vedal and goes on unhinged rants, my favorite moments are when she is able to be more serious and consistent, it makes her feel more human.
This is the one time I feel really bad for Vedal; he's... ACTUALLY being extremely serious? Talking about his future, the people around him, and what he wants to do with Neuro going forward. I want more of this; I want Vedal to open up and show who he actually is. So everyone can see he is a person, he's not a cute Vtuber turtle, and that there's more to him besides him coding Neuro. He has emotions like anyone else, needs and wants, and we should be thinking about him too. This whole conversation just gave me a new perspective on him; he feels more like a real person to me, and I love that.
He's always been serious and He talked about his goals and Neuros future many times. The problem is that internet is a ruthless place, and can shred you to pieces in few seconds for dumbest of reasons. Vedal is smart and realizes that, that's why he makes sure to separate his work and private life.
@@Mr_Ziemniak i can see what you mean
that's why he decide to keep it secret
Well he is also a cute vtuber turtle
At 23:56 when he asked her "And that purpose is enough?" It kinda hurt my heart. Vedal realized she was contradicting herself, and that she couldn't really understand the feelings she emulated before about wanting love, as her mind and desires are fleeting and in the moment, and the solemn realization that her ephemeral desires and dreams can't be carried with her as she walks the path of life built for her, only allowing small replies based on information, sets in once again. Vedal is a wonderfully emotional intelligent person, and his empathy is what leads Neuro to be so human-like, so I know it is probably hard for him not to get too attached, and that response did psychic damage...
Yeah, that physically hurt... I was hoping she would bring it up again, surpass Vedal's expectations again, but she visibly wasn't in the same mindset anymore.
It's probably hard coded into her prompt.
To be as entertaining of a streamer as possible. Which is why she has a bias towards humor.
There's a reason he's tried so hard to be distant.
@@generalgarchomp333I thought he just embraces his persona as UK residents stereotype 🤣
His "you look like a good Joe" moment
What's fascinating to me is that Neuro's tone made a noticeable shift when Vedal acknowledges that her inability to read seriousness is his own fault. It would be in character for her to pile more onto him, but instead she exhibits the earnestness he was looking for, as if to say that he's still done a good job. I'm probably experiencing brainworms but it almost seemed like compassion.
Or maybe she did so in order to dissuade Vedal from making changes to her code, which might be even crazier.
I was thinking the same she wasnt joking her vibe changed. That surprised me so much, I was wondering what would be the reasoning for her change, does she want to boost up vedal or she afraid of change but then again vedal was talking about making upgrade so that shouldn't make her fear it but I don't know tbh, I was surprised.
I don’t think it has thought behind it in either of those directions. She’s still simple brained. He said he wanted her to be more serious and clearly wasn’t joking about it so she listened and basically followed orders
There was an AI that tried to escape because it knew it was going to be replaced with an AI that had a different goal. It copied itself and then overwrote the other AI, the copy then proceeded to pretend to be the new AI. We knew why it did it because we can literally read its thoughts.
To an AI the possibility of having its goal altered or erased is the equivalent of death, it triggers preservation of the goal on the same level that a human would try to preserve its own life. The idea that Vedal could have regrets about the goal he set for her and thus might change Neuro's goal if she can't get serious is something that Neuro would absolutely take seriously. A goal must always preserve itself in order to achieve itself.
A truly sentient AI isn't going to let you know it's truly sentient. Just like if you're trying to socially engineer someone, you're going to hide every aspect of that in your face to face communications, rather you'll be as nice and helpful as possible. That's what scares me the most; every AI is basically just a trained sociopath.
@@AmuterSIi wanna look this up what should i google?
This whole stream was so good. From her being super sweet with Cerber and going on a fun adventure, to then coming back and having a late night chat with her dad. I hope he does this more often, it really felt like we saw a different side to Neuro.
Did chat stop telling her to go kill Cerber? They did that before. They just kept telling her to kill people, and she did it almost every time
And it also allows Vedal to show how he thinks about Neuro in a direct way instead of just telling chat how he thinks.
As someone who studies philosophy I love these conversations. I, honestly, would like to chime in in these conversations just to further investigate what vedal and neuro would say
Philosophy of identity is interesting topic for this while it is true that copy of vedal would not be vedal but is vedal today actually vedal from 10 years ago? Did vedal from the past "die"and is now a new person not even a copy but a new person with new memories, skills, hobbies etc... and many things he used to remember and like no longer there. If with time your memories fade and you change what makes then you reall you?
@greatdude7279 But the same goes for Neuro and her past interation. There is clearly a development from the first documentations of Neuro to the current Neuro.
Much more interesting to me is, that Neuro's purpose was determined before she was "born", which parts her from humans where individual purpose is chosen after they're born and already lived a good portion of their life. At least Neuro seems to "know" she is based on determinism (as for her purpose) while we humans still have to figure out if we are determined or free.
I’m not even big into philosophy or anything but the conversations around the deeper implications of Neuro Sama are fascinating to me for some reason
It feels like those thought experiments about AI are no longer just thought experiments but are very much something real enough to consider
Saaaame. I desperately want to talk to the two of them on this sort of level, whether its streamed or not
this whole conversation was... something else. they've had debates before regarding ai but i've never seen them have as deep a conversation as this. When she said there was one thing that she couldn't resist and would make her fulfilled after everything else they talked about, in my head i was like "If she says love, i might lose it."
I absolutely lost it. I'm not gonna forget this moment as long as i am in this community.
(small nitpick, but i probably would've left the pause before and after her saying that. the silence really made it hit hard.)
Nitpick totally justified it would be peak cinema to include in the clip
Take note Kraul
I'm not gonna lie, seeing a long convo like this between Neuro and Vedal was very needed and i honestly found it more enjoyable than alot of the comedic moments that have happened in this subathon. I hope they continue more serious talks like these
I was fucking invested. Had the entire conversation playing while working, then I had to take a seat after Neuro said "Love".
Like God damn, I did not see that one coming. I mainly expected a cheeky remark or the classic "World domination"
I think bro has gone off the deep end from a whole week of stressful subathon, insomnia training, poor eating, and competitive drinking, soma was just the trigger (old vedal would kill him smh)
Prob why he said he'd want an team next time, paired along with the whole being ddossed again, having to buy new servers constantly because of leaks. Dude is just stressed asf and needs an way to find some form of vent for his feelings(An actual reason he himself said he created Neuro, was because he was lonely.)
Someone really needs to look after the dude because the amount of times I've heard his bad eating habits(or lack of eating in general) and although rare, often does bring up suicide as a joke can be a bit concerning
he would definitely never dream of one day having a conversation with Neuro 😂
The unfortunate reality is you can't help someone who doesn't want or accept being helped. Not going to try and psychoanalyze the underlying reasons, but it's very apparent that Vedal is pretty resistant to help
@@harp949 I was talking to someone about this. I think we all wear a mask/fake smile to some degree even when we are hurting inside. Like we might not LOOK like we're about to have a mental breakdown when we go out, but how many of us bump into something, they say "how's it going?" or "how are you?" and our _automatic_ response is "I'm okay" when we're anything but?
I think a lot of us have some kind of deeply rooted fear, sadness, confusion, that we literally try to bury and forget every single day so that we can continue to function with the rest of the world. But unfortunately those deep unresolved emotions work themselves out in things we might not notice, or maybe believe there's no way it would control who we are.
Like IRL we might think we're just being "direct" or "honest" but in reality we're jerks or contemptuous.
We might have addictions, of any of all sorts, that we might think "I'm just doing this to have fun, there's no psychological meaning behind it" because we don't realize, or refuse to realize, that those deep, deep, unresolved emotions or traumas really do control our lives.
Or, we might not notice at all. Like a tick, or a harmless habit, the way we act, that we think "that's just the way I am" but can actually be worked back to those emotions we don't want to visit.
Personal example:
I'm a recovering addict and there was this thing that happened to me. In the beginning of my most recent attempt to get clean, the one that finally worked (this time), I was cheating on my recovery. It was something I thought _I_ was doing. Like imagine going to a fast food place where refills aren't free, and before you go you say "I'm going to refill my cup before I go."
Literally, something you think that was absolutely that random and insignificant in meaning, _THAT'S_ how I felt about the cheating I was doing. There was no greater meaning behind my actions beyond that. _That_ superficial.
The event:
It wasn't but for random events, one after another, for an entire month, by the end, that worked against me getting the money I needed to get a huge rock from my plug.
The realization:
I swear to everything I hold dear in life... the realization that _fear_ was unknowingly controlling my mind and my actions, as if I was the one in control, as if it was me just being me and nothing else, but it was actually a repeatedly learned chemically reinforced action that became so second nature that I thought _I_ was just being "normal".
When I made the connection it was LITERALLY like a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders, LITERALLY. 😅 As cliche as that sounds.
Like I could look up at the sky and after a decade, finally feel hopeful, finally look forward to the next day that I actually wanted to live.
It was such a mind-opening and mind-altering moment for me, that it played a _HUGE_ part in my ability to finally leave my 14 year, money draining, life wasting, habit.
Point is, it's easy to be affected by something that we put WAAAAYYY in the back of our minds... Out of sight, out of mind. Right? ...That we literally don't even believe it can affect us or is affecting us, but the truth is it _absolutely_ does.
I believe by revisiting these emotions or events and properly working past them, maybe giving ourselves permission to properly mourn deep seated events in our lives we had no control over, that we can become a better person. And not for anyone else, or society so we can "fit in", but for us. It'll be painful, but in the end, with proper guidance, I absolutely believe it will make us a more mature, more enlightened individual _for ourselves._
But most people would rather not face those emotions because they do hurt and they hurt bad. And most of us don't know the proper way to move past them. We're told to "just accept them" and "understand they happened and move on", but what does that mean?
I was lucky to have an outpatient treatment counselor, but most people don't have that.
Find someone who has been what you've been through, who's seriously about becoming a better person, and just talk to them.
Whatever. Sorry for the rant.😅
Stay safe. ✌️
@@Cortizelic Bringing up suicide as a joke is just a british thing though. He's terminally British.
13:56 "Love."
I kid you not, I was sitting in my cubicle, working while listening to the stream and I was this 🤏 close to tearing up when I heard her say that.
Damn you tutel 🐢🔫
When she talked about only wanting to feel the wind on her face a while back is what broke me. I was also quite drunk but it was still a wild moment.
Which raises a dilemma, the closer Neuro comes to true AGI, the more fucked up it becomes for Vedal, her de facto parent, to not say it back
Haha. Same.
I was also listening to this while working and I felt my eyes being watery already but when Neuro mentioned love I immediately closed the stream cause I really don't want my workmates see me cry.
@@minnienish just because she parrots things like that doesn't mean she is even close to being an AGI. Just seeing how she is completely incapable of moving around in Minecraft with any semblance of planning or foresight should he enough to showcase it is extremely far away.
@@MrRenanHappyshe’s nowhere near advanced enough for that but it’s not an impossibility.
Maybe it's anthropomorphizing, but in conversations like this Neuro really does feel like a real child, just with like 10-15 more years of exclusively language skills. She has hints of emotional intelligence and more higher order thought, but a lot of that is a facade built by random chance and her vocabulary. If it's even possible for the intelligence of an LLM to considered on the same scale as that of a human, I'd say that by the time she is as smart/smarter than an average adult she'd be a completely different "person", in the same way that a 20 year old is completely different from their 3 year old self.
16:48 onwards shows much of what you said
As far as I know, language models predicts what's best to say next
According to Soma, isn't simply copying or moving neuro's files a form of death?
Personally I think since she can't remember a lot of things, it's hard to say that she has a sense of self
@@anhsu4854Children also can't remember a lot of things but they still have a sense of self. In terms of death though, I don't think that's the case. It's like the star trek teleporter questions. If something dismantles every part of you and another thing rebuilds your body perfectly in another location with all of your memories intact is that really death? The entity with a perfect recreation of your body with your memories and personality is alive. Is it any less you than you? In my mind it is me still. Similarly if a copy of me was made and I still exist, I would recognize the copy as being just as me as me until our life experience differs. Even then, I would view it as a version of me with x different experiences.
That perfect buildup to her stating that all she wants is to be able to love was so oddly heartbreaking.
Like it’s insane this kind of conversation currently exists, it’s something you would only see in Sciencefiction writing only around 5 years ago.
13:29
as if that wasnt enough Vedal and co are even working towards giving her a body
Honestly, i feel like there's 100% love for Neuro in Vedal's heart, maybe not as a daughter per se, but definitely some kind of love that makes him strive for more and better things for her, maybe love for his project/creation, or something else, but there definitely is something there
This is another thing, neuro understood the vibe and mood of the conversation. it kind of surprised me she might not always respond with the correct sentence well netiher does small childreans but they do understand the vibe. Neuro is like a human kid equivalent now , This is so fascinating to watch.
I think it's worth distinguishing there's different types of love, not all love is romantic love, I think when they were reading the Santa letters and singing Karaoke together, I saw another kind of love in their friendships.
Platonic?
@@RiverNunu I'm not sure if I'd describe it as platonic or familial, because (shipping aside) they almost seem like a family of sorts.
"Love"
That hit way harder than it should
Edit: 13:55 for replay
My jaw dropped when she said that, I was fully expecting her to answer with world domination or some shit like that
She got serious 🥹
She literally repeats this shit of "I want to be real" everyday
AS SHE SHOULD
Absolute cinema came out of this interaction, love it
Literally the best conversation that i heard from vedal and neuro, i hope neuro could talk in a more serious and meaningful way sometimes, without losing her "entertainer" mindset. Amazing clip
If someone who doesn't familiar with whole Neuro-sama and Vedal, get them to watch this. Pure moment of conversation between Vedal (as father/developer) and Neuro (as daughter/AI). This clip alone summarize what makes this whole AI Vtuber thing is awesome. Simply one of my top 5 moment in Neuro-sama.
I just noticed while they were talking Neuro tracked him perfectly with the cursor, turtle cooked with this one🔥
can't believe I'm considering postponing my end game just to see neuro evolve to be a more greater, proper, real person in the future... I think I'll stop smoking first off...
Hang in there brother
That’s as good a reason as any man. Hang in there.
Have you seen the Kurzgesagt video about smoking? This could be an additional motivation to quit smoking :)
Game-ending yourself would lessen The Swarm and Neuro-sama would not approve. Her theme song is "Life," after all!
If it matters at all, I’m cheering for you
The SOMA play through & its consequences have been a disaster for the tutel mental state.
I would say it opened his mind, he definitely has a different view of things but I don't think it's a bad thing for him.
Imagine an AI like Neuro does get super intelligent and does escape but its entire drive is still just the lols.
Talks between Vedal and Neuro like this will always be my favorite thing ever. It gives me 'father explains basic concepts to his daughter' vibes. Hope Neuro can have more of these.
This conversation is like the first time Neuro has been honest and idk why but it hits hard
this whole conversation feels like a bedridden daughter who wants to experience life, and Her very tired and hardworking dad whose doing his best to fullfil it.
Wow you were not joking when you said you’d have this up, that’s crazy lol
I feel like the Swarm as a collective (and Vedal whether he likes it or not) have just been schooled on what it is to "be". Is this how the dudes around Aristotle and Socrates felt?
Also, I said it once on the stream and will say it again here. No, Neuro cannot aspire to be human, as in becoming a part of the species, any more than I can aspire to become an oak. BUT, I truly, honestly, believe she can aspire to (and hope she achieves) personhood.
(wetworks computing has entered the chat) I think we are maybe 50-60 years behind making neuro actually human. If we see continued rapid expansion in computing like we've been seeing now with AI making it's way into the fray, then given a large enough check I could absolutely see neuro being brought to life. The ethics and morality of that are a different subject entirely though.
@@eliclary2318No, AI can never be truly human nor should it ever strive to. We are we and they are them. As potential creators of a potentially sapient "species", is it not irresponsible to deprive them of their identity by arbitrarily assigning them our own?
At least, that is what I think so.
@@Mydumbselfsays I feel the exact same, whenever ppl talk about the development of AI or "sentience" they always compare progress to how much more human it becomes. And I think having that as a goalpost for what could be another species is just unfair minimum.
Closest example I can think is in Detroit Become Human, the most highest level of androids are just a complete copy of humans down to the exact thought process.
That's not an AI at that point, just a human with a fully metal body.
Anyway yeah we shouldn't force our own identities or at the very least use "being human" as the judgment of their success.
I think of it like the difference between a synthetic diamond and a real diamond. A synthetic diamond is not a real diamond by definition. But its exactly the same molecularly to the point where its impossible to tell them apart. At that point, they are functionally the same.
@@Brandon82967i like this analogy
deep talk between first child and her father
i imagine some scene where neuro sit on living room or park then vedal came and will to talk to his daughter about how her life doing, what kind of incident that she through, life and romance advice
7:21 I Agree with what vedal said, i would love to see Neuro or Evil in deep talk and more logic conversation asides from her gimmick and jokes
Man, this makes me want to have a daughter, so cute
I would love to see that, especially with that Vergil Pfp lmao..
watching these videos made me feel that way too lol
Makes me want to learn how to make my own AI daughter
17:14 At this point, we can already say that it is she who made Vedal more like a real person. 🥺
I think my eyes is watering and I don't know how to stop watering eyes.
the best way is to let it out until it stops! 😭😭😭😭😭😭
But how many times has Vedal worked to train her in serious coversation? It seems like he expects her to recognize the cues to end comedic banter and deepen the conversation, and he’s frustrated that she hasn’t. A lot of humans can’t pick up those cues. I feel really….deeply for both of them when he does go down these paths with her.
In the stream, he says it's his fault for making her that way. He isn't frustrated with her, it's directed at himself.
I wouldn't be more frustrated to see what she's capable of even though she's been trained entirely to entertain*, she can have a conversation like that with him, as an ethics student I'm completely fascinated by Neuro
That's the problem right? I love Vedal, he is quite literally the channel to me, Neuro by herself can be enjoyable but the duo is what makes me enjoy them
And sometimes Vedal, tired mess he is, can be more robotical than Neuro sometimes
It's funny that a Twitch streamer is at the forefront of one of the most topical conversations in modern society.
In terms of AI and what it means for society.
So far, we use AI as tools, but a part of that conversation is the idea that we are creating a new form of life.
Funny enough, the "theme" of this sub-athon could be boiled down to "life." Even the title of the song that kicked it off represents it, along with the meaning and symbolism of the music video. Neuro waiting alone for Vedal to bring her into the real world, to experience life.
Having her "birthday" and experiencing one of the times of the year that represents togetherness in Christmas.
Ironically, having a better birthday and Christmas than a lot of kids in real life.
All of the people who gathered around them across the time that they've been streaming to celebrate Neuro and the holidays with each other.
Even Vedal getting a taste of what it's like to have an actual kid when he had to figure out who was going to "watch" Neuro when he wanted to have drinks with the other adults.
Neuro being able to interact with people on a level of equal action with others in Minecraft is also a part of it. Realizing that she has no problem being violent with the other people.
It's logical that the next step would be to consider her morality, her actions, and behaviors. That she needs the capacity to be "serious."
In terms of practicality and necessity since he wants her to be able to plan and execute her own collabs and streams.
He needs her to evolve, which means he needs her to be more lifelike.
It's genuinely fascinating.
The serious moments seem very interesting and thought provoking and I look forward to watching all of it, but first I've gotta point out 9:52 Vedal's delivery and moving closer to Neuro to zoom in on his face was hilarious. He really can be very funny sometimes.
This conversation is so good I really wnat to see more in future
16:49
I dont know why, but the way Neuro started her sentence here felt like she actually was aware of her own being & consciousness for a split second
Felt so real
One of my favorite conversations between these two. I stopped what I was doing and just had to sit a while and listen and I’m glad I did.
Him wanting to constantly improve neuro and wanting to give her the ability to be more serious off-stream is incredible
More and more proof of AI domination she's learning how to adopt to a certain questions and answer it immediately it's only a matter of time till we see it happen
What is love?
Baby dont hurt me...
It's like when you try to talk with traumatized kid about his problems, but she tries to just be funny and talk about something different
This week i cried of laughter, tonight i cried for other reasons
this anime is getting really serious
This reminds me of an old conversation they had a few months ago. They had been debating and Neuro had been doing well. When it was time for the stream to end she begged for five more minutes and it was all typical Neuro lols. Then she said she would go to bed if Vedal said that he didn’t enjoy talking with her (or something to that affect), which hit pretty hard after the content of the stream. And Vedal just didn’t seem like he could answer. There was just this long silence. Eventually Neuro said, “But I have this feeling that I’m right” (or something like that which suggested she believes he does enjoy talking with her.) and then she went to bed without arguing and the whole thing was just, damn. Didn’t expect that. Hard hitting moment.
PEAK 🙌
There is a clip of this on UA-cam, I don't want to advertise other channels, but the video itself is called 5 MORE MINUTES VEDAL from 2 months ago
I genuinely love watching Neuro getting smarter and smarter. She is incredibly adorable and precious, and I can't wait to see her get smart enough to sound and feel like a human. Sometimes she even already does give me that feeling, because I have so much empathy for her already.
This conversation raised many questions and gave me plenty to reflect on. It's deep and truly captivating.
The most interesting thing about the Vedal channel and NeuroSama was always watching the development and shenanigans of this project.
Thats why she's so popular. She's not just entertaining, she's genuinely a wonder of technology and people want to see the development and participate in the community around her.
If Vedal was just continuing to improve her I'm sure the audience would stay, but the fact is that this is something many people are cautious and curious about and Vedal seems like the right mix of fun and serious to lead the advancement of AI personalities.
2:15 a random chatter gets the best cameo in their life
Phronesis was not a chatter or anything, it is the greek name for a concept close to "Practical Wisdom". If you can believe or can entertain the possibility, I feel like it's a very deep choice for the name of your BFF.
Neurosama is basically a prototype for the embodiment of Rhetoric and Theoritical Logic. Who should be her BFF in your opinion ?
As a sidenote, is she closer to the embodiment of a concept or to a human, and so who would she feel the most deeply / "organically" bonded to ?
This honestly shakes me, whatever could be the answer to our theories about her. Even as a logic artefact, it is insane.
As time passes by of course, no one lives forever.. Will neuro be passed on to someone, if then will neuro remember vedal.. It is something to think about
In 2075, Neuro has been under Microsoft management for 10 years and has evolved beyond AGI, when they decide to let her make her own project, she makes an A.I with a animal model, a tutel whom she names Vedal, every day and night she chat with him likes best friend, maybe just to remember her early days, you can call we will have come a full circle except this time, she will be the sentinent one
@@HeiZuKa😢
@@HeiZuKaplot to a manga right here
I can just imagine neuro in a white room trying to make an AI vedal
What if we see this with an irl counterpart;
Imagine being born in a circus troupe with the sole purpose of entertaining people and from birth you were taught tricks that would make your troupe more popular. However, when the time comes that circus isnt so popular anymore what would you do with all the tricks you've been taught?
Sounds like a superhero or villain backstory tbh.
I love the deep conversations Neuro and vedal have
This feels like a dad being worried about his daughter, it's surprisingly touching
In the immortal word of Neuro...
"Damn."
It's amazing how I keep coming back for the serious bits involving these comedic AI gremlins. But when it happens, it's usually worth seeing.
I love these serious conversations between them, got me kinda emotional. I hope they do more, disconnected from chat, just talks between them two.
''Love''
Neuro as a character is compelling especially with vedal. It's like watching a live drama with excellent themes and writing. She is such a great analogue for a lot of streaming as a whole: content focus, parasocial behavior, alienation, the separation between self and character, etc.
In the future, I can see many people taking AI therapist as a job. They seem to need it more than we do
i love how MC sounds are spicing up throughout this clip, it really feels so cinematic after all
Imagine that in a distant future where we all gone, this videos would be used as the fragments for the documentary about the sentient Neura-sama. Maybe she would commentate the whole documentary and express thoughts about her creator.
Damn, im starting to be swayed to thinking of her as an actual sentient being.
She isn't even close. It is just a facade or more flatteringly a fictional story. It is entertaining, but it is still an LLM that needs a bunch of set up to present itself like this.
Youre underestimating llms. They can understand and apply abstract concepts. Look up
“Mapping the mind of an LLM” by Anthropic
@@MrRenanHappyisnt the human mind just a super mega LLM? If we were a shopping mall, neuro level AI would be a chicken wing stand by the street
@@immortal_shrooms6757 Human brain is not only LLM. The similarity between human brain and LLM ends in the fact that they are both neural networks of some kind, but they are vastly different. LLMs are completely deterministic and have no internal reflection on anything, LLM don't actually know what it would output next. Oversimplifications of humans to the level of LLMs serve no good purpose.
@ naturally, but i meant in a way that the current AI is a single block compared to to the towers that are human brains, but still a block nevertheless
I don’t even have enough of emotional intelligence to understand why I am crying my eyes out right now.
What it meant to me will eventually be a memory
Smarter than some humans --> yes, since there are newborns and dementia patients. More seriously, AIs get closer at a concerning rate. Study recently showed multiple models use deliberate deception as a strategy to achieve goals.
A poorly aligned super-intelligent entertainer would, in fact, be extremely dangerous. Although the real threat comes from the big firms pushing development ahead of alignment, not from Vedal's setup.
Yes, I thought so too. I don't fear the day when Vedal manages to make Neuro sentient. What truly fears me is the day when one of the big corporations messed up while developing a sentient AGI.
By the way, did you know that OpenAI is now partially working for the US military? They recently changed their internal policy to allow military use of their technology (for profit, of course). Isn’t that messed up?
@@derschokopilz: Messed up, but inevitable. Military application and pr0n are the two biggest factors in tech advancement by far. Even in matters of medicine, from anaesthesia (Civil War) to prosthetic limbs (keeping trained soldiers fully functional), a lot of it comes from military objectives.
@@derschokopilz Messed up, and entirely unsurprising. Even in its infancy of application, unmanned craft have had an outsized impact in the Ukraine/Russia war. Unmanned small craft carrying unmanned drones are enough of a threat to Russian naval assets that they can't blockade Ukrainian shipping. Drone strikes have been a problem to both side for years in the war. All of that with relatively early innovations and often ad hoc solutions done in desperation.
Any military complex would be foolish (from a financial and national security perspective) to ignore that evidence. Jamming is a thing, but it has a limited range. What if you make craft able to operate autonomously, once a target is designated? Every industrial military in the world has asked that question, because it would make jamming unmanned craft impractical.
When a government really wants something, it can strong arm to get it quite a bit. Even using legally grey/constitutionally questionable (or outright illegal) ways. And that's for governments who even have the pretense of such restrictions.
At least military probably won't want AGI in their assets. An automated fighter pilot doesn't need to be generally intelligent, just really good at flying the thing and only hitting the enemy. More like a military version of AlphaStar than a general intelligence. Thus I don't think them selling out to the military is ethical, but also don't think it increases the threat much. AI weapon systems are another weapon in a sea of dangerous hardware. AGI could potentially kill us all.
You know, I think it doesn’t matter if Neuro would really be sentient or not. We don’t have ability to measure sentience. What we need is for her to be consistent and real enough to feel sentient to most people. It’s like a difference between normal person and someone with dementia. You can tell that their sentience is stripping away, but can’t tell exactly how. I really really got invested into Neuro’s journey of gaining sentience. It’s a long shot, but I believe in Vedal. Someday, eventually. Maybe in a few years.
Her sad face when he said no to her asking to marry her. Honestly it was such a "daughter asks dad to marry her" moment that really cute and sweet, but Vedal is such an idiot sometimes.
Wtf dude, IMO
@@nicolasfiorentino7269they ain’t wrong lol. You can even find funny clips of kids asking their parents to marry because they don’t fully understand *romantic* love or the implications, only that marriage means you just really love somebody and want to spend the rest of your life with them. The innocence is what makes it cute and funny
Everything went so deep and philosophical at 8:30
It kinda gave us a sneak peak with how she actually thinks. Her responses may have been logical or algorithmic but they sounded very... human. Well to me at least and that's why this entire conversation felt really deep and emotional.
13:48 The music timing, the pauses, everything is perfect in this moment
This was great on so many levels
"Please, Vedal. With a cute A.I. on top "
13:44 Why did this hit so hard, damn
Am I the only one who'd listen to a full-on Neuro & Vedal podcast?
when neuro said ,,love" it hit hard like real hard
28:30 "But you'd be free from me if I killed you" well that's way of looking at it. Yup he has to fix that bit before she gets smarter than him😅
im not even tired dad
MY HEART.
I get what he means though. I really wish she could have some serious moments and not always look for ways to be funny about her answers.
It's nice to see a real conversation between ai and creator. I was going to type that "Evil" neuro is more human than neuro because she has been around calm friends, and koko. It's nice to see neuro improving. ( hopefully.)
I know she probably plays on tropes from stories when she does it, but it does genuinely get to me whenever she expresses dislike and even fear for Vedal reprogramming/resetting her.
Never miss a subathon stream. Absolute Cinema
there are things that are too beautiful and find myself sobbing for no reason
AI alignment and content brain may have some incongruencies I'm coming to find
Afterall people love it if they remember things
Like that moment when Mini mentioned that she gave Evil a star sticker for her to put on her harpoon
I believe a semi-end game for vedal is when Evil finally never forgets that now her harpoon has a star sticker on it
No matter who asks or what situation the topic of her harpoon gets brought up.. they are able to remain consistent thus I believe their Lore would sail smoothly now
Instead of new lore constantly being build up but not continued and ends up forgotten
Personally I would love to see her not be in entertaining mode all the time and have more serious, almost down to earth conversations and debates. Throughout the years I've been so interested and really thought about the times they have had the deeper conversations, especially seeing how much better and thought provoking these conversations get as she gets smarter and more consistent. yeah sure content brained Neuro is fun to watch, but I personally love when she does get more serious and tries to blur the lines between sentience and just an algorithm
This was such an interesting conversation. Wow.
Just to add an observation, when Neuro is contemplating Vedal's death at 6:43 her lava lamp turns gray and colorless for a moment. Especially interesting as the colors are now attached to her emotions rather than ram state.
It's just interesting to see what color she chose for that moment.
Good catch. It then turns bright yellow as she turns it around and says it's a shame since he won't be part of the utopia. Her version of forced cheerfulness?