How Apex Seals Work In A Rotary Engine (RX7 RX8 13B Renesis)
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Apex Seals are the life blood in a rotary engine,. In an RX7 or RX8 13B, they're known to go out causing expensive damage. But what do Apex seals actually do? When you look on craigslist, you'll see 'Just needs apex seal replaced', don't fall into the trap, watch this video!
If you had two cameras (wide shot and a close up for details) this would've been perfect. Lots of good information, thanks!
We've addressed the camera in new episodes, two cameras are not needed, we simply shoot in 4k, then master in 1080p to allow room for punch ins/outs.
these are the most helpful rotary videos I have found!
This is the most helpful video on UA-cam that I have seen by far. Thanks.
thank you for posting this information , i've owned a 1993 rx7 fd since new & i'm always learning new cool info ..........even at my age..........LOL !
The four people who didn't like this as of right now didn't watch the whole thing 🌮
Love him or hate him, endorsed by the incoming pres is a big deal.
you mean : The four people who didn't like this as of right now didn't know whole thing about the fake 'Just needs apex seal replaced' and got sucked in
good video but, get a cameraman that knows how to hold focus!
It's not as easy as you think it is to hold focus.
No offense to you, but I'm well aware. I'm a professional filmmaker by trade. I had to resort to a Canon 24-70 f2.8L because my cine lenses were being borrowed and the lack of a smooth focus ring aided in the difficulty. This was a low light situation, 2.8 was the smallest aperature I could use in this particular instance without introducting even more grain.
It was shot on an A7S at 40,000 ISO. The room was very dark.
"professional"
a fucking 10 year old phone will hold focus
My fucking toaster oven was used to shoot all my videos.
fucking posers
I'd be fucking embarrassed to call myself professional if this is the type of shit you come up with.
Love your detail information!! Can u please tell your camera man not to use too large aperture to avoid constantly focus back and forth, thanks! Awesome contents!
+Leslie Tang that was the last video shot with a 24-70L, the lens was dirty, 2.8 hid it.
If only engineers could find a way to lubricate apex seals like piston rings as it goes down the chamber. By the way it is designed, the scraping motion of apex seals goes straight to combustion stroke, burning up oil. It seems like there is no way to cool down or lubricate apex seals.
Maybe vibranium or adamantium apex seals could work. =)
Its fundamental geometry, round pistons are simply better the triangles just as round wheels are better than square wheels.
Very interesting, thanks!
Glad to hear about detonation, and how it's violent enough to dent the rotor face, causing the subsequent seal failure. I had no idea pressures could get that high in the engine...
Keep in mind the heat at that point in the cycle, and the constant heat cycle the rotor is going through. More heat means the metal is more malleable, heat cycles will weaken a metal. The two, combined with boost and high detonations, could kill a rotary faster than it would a piston.
I'm sure out there somewhere, there's an aftermarket rotor that's been made to withstand high boost and higher detonation, probably some race company makes it. Could also see what Rob Dahm is doing considering he's using a turbo the size of one they use on construction vehicle diesel engines.
What if you used a rotating cylinder would that fix the wear issues
The solution is to use a round, reciprocating piston, Mazda solved its engine reliability problems by discontinuing Wankel engines.
Isn't the detonation dent from the trailing spark plug? I'd imagine detonation from that spark would cause this, since it's about thee right area when the trailing would be firing.
Also, I'm surprised you didn't show two piece apex seals, where the two pieces have angled edges so that the seal stays straight rather than rotating slightly due to manufacturing tolerances.
Another reason why more research should be put into laser ignition, since not only would it save apex seals from the gap for the plug; laser ignition can be focused to ignite deep into the chamber, not just where gas meets 'spark' like with spark plugs, and this would mean that you can position where ignition would be most favorable.
Along with some other modifications, the rotary could become an even better engine.
Personally, though I'm not sure how well this would work, I think someone should look into seals, both apex and oil ring, be manufactured with a friction reducing coating, which might aid in life longevity as they're more of a bearing surface.
Porcelain coated cylinder with high temperature titanium Apex seals? Or Halo Apex seals allowing oil to be applied directly at the seal? That would at least conserve oil.
Still would not solve the multitude of other fatal flaws in the Wankel design, lubrication is not even the primary failure mode in Wankel engines.
Apex seals are inherently weak and unreliable they are easily damaged by erratic combustion and high brisance detonation or "Knock".
Carbon build up is not a cause of apex seal failure, it's a symptom of low compression... the result of damaged seals.
The standard 4 stroke should be ancient history by now, yet as soon as
people gave a crap about mpg because of the lack of engineers working on
the other designs, they turned it into something significantly more
efficient than it should have been. Hopefully your deisotto project goes
well, but honestly your not giving enough credit to rotaries for all
you know it could come back sooner than you think.
I have a question. Could the combustion dent on the rotor {the one that's actually supposed to be there by design} be moved to the end of the rotor in the direction the rotor spins to increase combustion/thermal efficiency and possibly lower exhaust temps and MAYBE increase power?
That might be a good idea if you move the spark plugs to right under the dent when ignition takes place.
Hmm, I see. I was thinking that, too. Maybe replace the spark plugs with two points inside the engine that spark electricity between them so that the 'spark plug hole' can be smaller and/or non-existent, too?
Mazda is developing laser ignition to take care of the hole.
Moving the spark plugs to match an offset chamber would require a third, far trailing, plug. Three plugs have been used in the past to ignite a very, very small volume where there would be uncombusted fuel in a normal setup; forgot what the results were of the three plug setup, but offsetting thee plugs from where they are now would require that third plug as you would have a large volume of the combustion chamber that wouldn't ignite when it should, cause a backwards force on the rotor when it does combust.
That's a sweet piece of information. I did some research and found out that Mazda used the three plug setup in their design that won Le Mans. But I don't believe moving the spark plugs will cause a backwards force. Ignition will still take place after 'TDC'. I also found out that due to centrifugal force, gases are concentrated on the outside of the chamber. Might it be better to change the housing shape slightly so that the combustion cavity in the rotor can be removed entirely?
Hi. I dont understand why the apex seals are not rotating, as a lubricated cilinder, so avoiding the friction work in that point of that metal barr. I hope somebody understand me. Sorry for my bad english.
Why didn’t they just produce a very durable apex seal From the start? Like rx8, why didn’t they just install a high quality apex seal from the factory? It’s such a tiny part yet it does such an important job
*The entire concept of the apex seal is inherently flawed by design... you can never make an apex seal as strong or as durable as a piston ring seal... and it is this fact that explains why all 26 of the original Wankel KKM licensee's have abandoned the Wankel engine... including Mazda.*
Awesome vid man
doesn't the centrifugal force push the apex seals outward and help seal it? I thought they worked similar to as a fuel pump which also has "apex seals" but they don't have springs
*redsuns theme plays*
what is that background beat wtf
3:21 missus wants you home
I have an 1986 RX-7 FB GSL-SE And it has been sitting in the garage for about 7 years and has last been started 7 years ago It also has 75 thousand miles so should i check the apex seals? I would like to know. I love that car i even named it Radient. Not only would the Apex seals need to be checked but what about the transmission and clutch and brakes? Im worried of the apex seals wearing off and then the engine would blow. Please tell me what to do.
Hello MissionTWA, I'm curious as to the life of your 86 rx7 fb gsl-se,and are you a pilot?
great vid
What would be the best apex seal to use for a turbo rx8?
Is it the Renesis 13B or is it a swapped 13B? My old Rotary mechanic told me he only used Atkins Rotary apex seals. I just know that the RX-8 wasn't the best to turbo, if you can afford it, do a turbo 13B-REW swap.
21 comments and nothing from doktorbimmer.
Has the world gone topsy turvy or did hell just freeze over.
Reading what Mazda's CEO said last week.. Lol!!!!
The real doktorbimmer
And what was that?
+blydrotor just that the RX-9 was a complete hoax, nothing but fake internet rumors.. The will be no new RX model
The real doktorbimmer
You must be happy.
+blyndrotor Why would I be happy? Its nothing that I did not already know.. but you might be sad..
I hope everyone that dislikes this video can't find baby sitters
This is great! Please keep up with these videos!
Thanks! What would you like to see?
I love my RX-8, these engines are much easier to work on.
*Why are there so many for sale with dead engines then?*
@@doktorbimmer r/wooooooosh (maybe)
@Camilo Rodriguez *You have to be very ignorant when it comes to cars in general to buy an RX-8...*
@@doktorbimmer stfu u r missing the joke
@@siapitapit3605 The RX8 IS a joke... worst pos ever made.
What about the corners where the seals meet? We need at least an entire video on how the seals meet at the corner and how this can work. Is leaking at the seal corners a problem sometimes?
at least you know how to work on them and there's no problem for you to own one 😀
Good video so much bullshit about rotas on youtube. subscribed.
What type seal is the correct seal
A piston ring.
What's the difference between the 2 mm and a 3 mm Apex Seals is the 3mm better. I have rx7 1991 fc
The solution is to do what Mazda did... switch to round piston seals.
@Sander Van der Kammen thanks for finally getting back to me Sander. I have another question for you...just a minute please
@@michaellaframboise7646 *Have you heard the joke about the two FC owners that walk into a bar?*
@@sandervanderkammen9230 no
@Sander Van der Kammen Well, since the decriminalization of cannabis in Canada, I would think those 2 fc owners probably said "Don't drink and drive", "Smoke and fly"😂😅🤣😇
*How apex seals work??? Seems the problem here is they DON"T WORK...*
My friend asked if you can add another engine pulley to compensate for the 10ms engine cycle compared to Otto engine 4 stroke 20ms cycle. Would that work instead of changing to x2 size injectors?
pmm4177 OK! Thanks for the reply+
My eyes fucking hurt.
so how would you rate an 04 rx8 with 134 thousand miles on the original engine with not hot start issues. I don't premix (I guess wouldn't hurt if I did) I don't have a sohn adapter, all I do is keep the oil changed with conventional 5w20 every 3000 miles or less. any suggestions on getting more miles out of it?
pmm4177 Keep doing what your doing, premix won't change what's already done to bearings. I actually just sold my perfectly running S1 Rx-8 with 135,000 miles only because it was just sitting due to me having the FD. NGK plugs/ wires, ignition coils between 15,000-20,000 miles and Penzoil 5w-30 conventional on mine when sold. The renesis with that type of consistent maintenance of course making sure not to develop vacuum leaks, I could see going to 200,000 minimum easily. Can't speak for reman motors but on the original, yes.
Brandon Hudgins I just installed an LS coil conversion yesterday to do away with those god awful Mazda coils
is the dent/deformed rotor usable?
Zshu tung depends on how dented the rotor is. When a rotor dents, it can deform the slot where the apex seal rides. You need to inspect it to ensure everything is straight.
Is it even possible to machine it back to it's originality? And thx for the kind info
Some people take them and machine them out to 3mm apex seal rotors.
how does this deformation hapens? wrong ignition timing?
it can happen for alot of reasons all of them similar to why it happens in a piston engine. the most common being poor fuel quality or wrong octane rating. oil in the combustion chamber which effectively lowers the octane rating of the incoming fuel. not enough fuel (running lean). hope that helps.
how do you time your rotors?
Rotors only go into the engine one way. As far as base timing, distributor or a crank angle sensor.
where can i find a timing belt for my rx8?
RX8s do not have timing belts.
i also need a throttle cable for my Rx8, can you supply one?
@@joshshift i have what you need the cable is 269.95 and belt is 699.49
let it smoke just extra lube
Wich aftermarket apex seals?
there are heaps look them up most engine builders only use genuine on request i no that PTS ( power tested seals ) are or were garenteed not to break but there are many to choose from
um....um....um...um...um
good video but cameraman Jesus christ please never film again, or learn to hold a camera still or better yet use a stand
2:24 why do you keep playing with the apex like it bothered me so much like put the damn thing in there
😂😂