@@gerardcousineau3478 I worked at a B-O-P, Jeep and AMC dealership in high school, yes, I'm that old, and we had a guy bring in a Safari to trade. Everybody had to go outside and check it out. It was gorgeous. They had it sold before the guy traded it in.
I once saw around 1976 in Dearborn a '66 Toronado with a Vista Cruiser wagon back grafted on! In progress. Staying a two door. Burned in my memory. It was coming toward me on a side street. I never saw or heard of it after. But it came to me it was a great combination. Far enough along to imagine it would have been finished. I never Googled it, but also haven't seen it in any of the thousands of car mags I've had over the decades
I’ve loved the 65-66 Toronado ever since they were introduced when I was an 11 year old kid, and that 2-door ‘Nomad’ design study just knocks my socks off.
Interesting video! I bought a ‘68 Toronado from a dentist in 1979. I drove it over 40K miles in the next 3 years. It was a terrific car and one of my favorites to this day. The styling of the back seat area was absolutely beautiful.
My dad had a 1977 Eldorado that he tried to tow a mid size boat with, it had plenty of power and the rear ended wasn’t too expensive to modify. Traction turned out the be the problem on more than a few boat ramps, steeper grades resulted in excessive wheel spin as you could not finesse the torque without lifting the front end.
I remember a 1983 movie called Survivors watching Walter Matthau drive a silver 1978 Eldorado getting chased down railroad tracks and getting stuck in a snowy ditch.
I had the opposite experience with my '81 Eldorado... Unlike the pickup truck or the Grand Am, the front wheels were up on dry ground and pulled the boat out without any slippage.
I have always liked station wagons since a kid in the 60s. I followed custom car shows and the car built for them. I also bought the model kits and some of those futuristic designs were station wagons. The family bought a 69 Chevy Concourse Estate wagon which I loved because I thought of it as a 69 Chevelle Wagon with the 300hp Turbo-Fire 350. We also had a 68 Vista-Cruser!
I always loved wagons. Some of my favorites are the 1968-1972 Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac Lemans, Oldsmobile Cutlass and Buick Sportwagon. Another favorite was the 1970 Buick Estate Wagon.
2:40 As a kid, I remember being _amazed_ at the "flat floor." I'd never seen that before (or actually since). Even my front-wheel-drive Acura has a "transmission hump" even though it's front-wheel drive.
I would have loved ti have had the GM two door version, the others no. I love the 71 to 76 clam shell wagons with the 1976 Buick my all time favorite. It was the first new car we had when I was a kid. I have always loved that car and wish I still had it.
A Toro wagon is an intriguing notion. The shooting brake style was especially interesting to me. That said, I imagine automakers made a lot of concepts and prototypes we’ve never seen. Thanks for showing us these two, Adam.
Thanks for the info. As I've posted in other comments, GM ruled the styling world in the mid-sixties - and it didn't get much better than the '66 Toronado! Although this was an interesting exercise, I'm sort of glad the Toronado style wasn't shared in its early years. It makes it seem a bit more special. BTW, there were several other variations on the Toronado theme. I can't post a link, but Bill Mitchell had one shortened called the Toronado GT. Another interesting one was what was called the Mini Toro, designed to push stuck cars in the Oldsmobile factory parking lot during the winter. And then, of course, there was the Mannix convertible! Keep up the great videos - always very informative and well-done.
@oldmancigars1869 Yes, I should have included "IMHO".😁 But I was not implying that the Toro was the best styled vehicle of the period, only that - IMHO - GM had more winning styles than other manufacturers during much of the 60s. Total sales and styling are not unrelated, no matter how anyone feels about competing cars. YMMV
I agree that the Tornado was oddly shaped. Although I have never liked GM cars, the '66 Riviera made the Olds look cobbled together. Mercury-Lincoln styling was much more appealing. Thanks to Adam for another interesting presentation.
GM (as well as Chrysler) may have ruled automotive styling in the late 50’s and very, very early 60’s, but their over the top styling came to roost once Ford came out with the 1960 Ford Galaxie 500 which made most of GM’s and Chrysler’s cars look completely outdated in 1960 with fins and gaudy styling. GM and Chrysler ruled the 50’s, but Ford ruled the 60’s with their styling and aesthetics that captured that decade really well. I’d argue the 1965 and 1966 Ford Galaxie 500 and LTD are probably the most 1960’s looking car from that decade, probably because of the unique ‘starburst’ taillights and double stacked headlights they used.
I would want the clam back rather than this hatch design. And I’d surely pick the oh so very very cool vista option! Imagine this with the vista treatment. 😮
FWD wagons certainly have their place, as proven by the proliferation of minivans in the years since these cars were designed. But the wagon at 7:10, with typical GM RWD proportions, including a huge rear overhang, would exacerbate the Achilles' heel of FWD vehicles, loss of uphill traction. I wouldn't want to drive the 707 Jetaway up a snowy hill either, but it was probably fine doing highway runs to and from airports. The near-hatchback at the start of the video was certainly ahead of its time; I don't think GM had any real hatchbacks in its lineup until the '71 Vega.
@@ButterfatFarms We owned a Checker for over 50 years. We put so much different stuff back there! Bicycles fit great if you take the front wheel off. Furniture, boxes, you name it. The rear seat is behind the door when you open it so it’s a brilliant design.
I would say the 4 door wagon was an engineering mule to see how the structure and interior would work out. I really think Oldsmobile could had pulled off something like a 2 Door Sport Wagon. Look how many 2 door Cutlass they sold. I wonder if someone at Chrysler saw this concept when they did the Magnum Wagon during the Daimler era? Look how many other manufacturers used that Transmission concept in their Front Drive Cars. Renault and Chrysler are two that pop to my mind.
The Toronado transaxle, with its chain and the differential next to the engine oil pan, was , I believe, unique to GM, although it was originally patented by Ford when they were designing the Falcon platform, which had a front suspension specifically designed to accommodate half-shafts, in case they ever wanted to sell a FWD car. Renault , Chrysler and Saab all had FWD cars with longitudinal engines, but with them, the transmission was under, or behind the engine, with the differential in the middle or the front of the transmission, still avoiding the traction problems Cord faced with their differential ahead of the engine. GM originally used the "UPP", as they called it, in a FWD prototype of the F85, but went upmarket when it became obvious that the public wasn't interested in innovative smaller cars. The chain actually made its way into some of the X and FWD A cars, but I think all of their recent transaxles use only gears.
I would love to see a video on the 1977/1978 Pontiac Trans Am Kammback wagons. I was a member of the Trans Am Club of America out in Pontiac at that time and had a good rapport with Bill Davis and some other GM designers. A great influence on an 18yo kid and Bill later gave me a great letter of reference when I got out of the US Navy and was seeking a job at GM in 1985.
The flush rear window glass treatment and rakishly forward angled B & C pillars on the 1st PoC vehicle were absolutely STUNNING as well as decades ahead of their time. GM’s design division was truly visionary during this halcyon era of the mid to late 60s.
Fantastic! Ashame GM didn't develop it further. It would have an excellent "Executive Sportsman" -- towing boats or the family vacation trailer, or an executive airport hauler and or salesman's wagon. Great ideas lost to history -- but for Adam! Thanks!
Bill Mitchell was a huge purveyor of split window designs and that's applied here. Consider the '40 era two door sedans, fifties three back window on Buicks and Olds, the '63 Corvette and the great '73 GM colonnade cars and their sail panel windows. Not many pick up on that
The shooting-brake-style version is pretty neat, it's too bad they didn't go for it. They could've borrowed a name from the company's past (we know how GM loves to do that) and called it the Toronado Nomad. The four-door one, to paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson's remark about the first-generation Porsche Cayenne, looks like someone backed a Toronado partway into a shed. :) (And as for the _eight-door_ one... that looks like one of those "panoramic phone camera fail" memes from a few years ago, where someone would try to take a panorama of a busy city street and end up creating a picture of a 200-foot-long bus with 30 wheels.)
I’m a huge fan of wagons - my last 6 cars before my current V70 were all wagons. They do everything an SUV does without all the weight, cost and unnecessary waste. The Toronado was such a handsome car and the wagon would have been amazing! Superb video and really enjoy your narration style.
I would rate the V70r wagon I had on the top of the best cars I had had . I finally sold it at 390k miles and it was still doing long trips. It's nickname was the "Swedish Impala" . The dogs loved the heated rear seat and the kids loved the third row hide hole seat.
Just started watching this one, Adam, but I was struck right off the bat when you state around the 3 minute mark that the front wheel drive arrangement wasn't offered again by Oldsmobile until the 1985 NINETY EIGHT. Aren't you over looking the 1980 Oldsmobile X car variant? (I think it was Omega), along with the Cutlass Ciera and the J body Firenza of 1982?
The 2nd wagon based on the Pontiac, from what I read a long time ago, had the rear tailgate set up in such a way that when lowered would touch or almost touch the ground (like a ramp). Because of the low floor, they said you could roll a motorbike right up into it...
Wow, I never knew that glass bended on the clam shell wagons! I don’t think that 2 dr olds tornado would have sold well. I could just imagine that 4 door wagon with front wheel drive. It may have sold great up north with winter driving.
I love the 2 door, but a combo of the ‘71-‘76 full-sized wagons with the front wheel drive platform would have been the bomb. The clamshell tailgate and air suspension in the rear would have been revolutionary.
I agree. If the 98, Electra, and Grand Ville C bodies had the front drive platform, the wagon could have had that, too. It would have been a better choice.
That last Toronado wagon I think was meant to be used as an airfield passenger shuttle, not necessarily taking corners out on roads as a limo. Other makes of that style stretch wagon were commonly used for that application. I'm sure it could be done though -I've seen late model limos nearly as long manage those in city streets somehow🙂
They weren't just sold as airport shuttles there's photos of one in the UK that was originally from a hotel on Hilton Head Island in South Carolina and was exported to the UK in 1979. I think they already had causeway access to Hilton Head Island back then so not sure what they needed them for. In my mind's eye I want to picture a Fantasy Island like scenario where you fly in and deboard the seaplane and instead of getting into a Red Chrysler wagon with no doors ala Fantasy Island it's one of these instead to take you to the resort. 😂
@@ButterfatFarms Either one honestly sounds better to ride in than the one used in "Dog day Afternoon". This video immediately reminded me of that one for some reason🙂
What If, indeed! I've always thought that Oldsmobile truly ended when the Toronado ended. For me, the T always represented excellence from bumper to bumper. What If Olds had green-lit the shooting brake T? Maybe Olds would have ended up preempting Chrysler, years later with the FWD minivan! Who knows? When you see your chance take it, someone else would take it. What say you Adam?
Very interesting. Shows that GM recognised the packaging advantages of FWD and were looking into how that could be leveraged for other vehicles that eventually resulted in that seminal RV. I don't see that last vehicle as a Toronado with a weird back end but a Station Wagon with a temporary front.
I think that iteration of the old tornado wagon was stylish and very beautiful. And could you imagine what that would be worth today if they had actually put it in production
On the Toronado Wagon the rear side glass has a bit of an AMC Pacer look to them. Adam, your right, the four door wagon, looks lame, having a "high-end" two door wagon harkens back to the 55 through the 57 Nomads. The AQC wagon resembles the GMC Greyhound Scenicruiser bus, that was designed by Raymond Loewy. Thanks for your time, work and posting
I remember my dad saying he would never buy a fwd Toronado because "it was chain drive and chains break". But look at that chain! I don't think it was ever a problem.
The two door breadvan style is a missed opportunity...would have been cost effective, too - shared components. The four door was pretty homely. The airport jitney is incredible!
I've never seen this before. What a fantastic find. Interestingly, it has an ever so slight resemblance to the rear quarter of the Chevy Citation design which was designed perhaps just 15 years or so later by GM and of course also front wheel drive. Even the wheels have a similar design to the original Chevy Citation wheels as well as somewhat similar tail lights. That tapered rear end design followed right along to even the 1984 Chevy Citation IV Concept Car. Maybe the Citation was indeed the evolutionary path of these initial ideas. The 4-door wagon would definitely have been the more practical and perhaps more profitable offering rather than the motorhome. It would have transformed the auto industry 20 years ahead of its time. I'm sure a higher cost of production was the cause of it not going forward. Cars were enormous back then, with the rear-drive drivetrain stealing a good 8 to 10 inches or more of interior floor space. Not to mention the constant problem of legroom and comfort for those passengers seated in center seats. My father had a 1971 Pontiac Catalina Grand Safari Station Wagon. As a kid, I often had to sit in the 3rd row jump-seat which literally sat on top of the rear differential. Legroom, even for a kid, was barely existent. And the heat produced by the rear differential, made the situation even more uncomfortable. This front drive design would have been a true game-changer. Honestly, had it not been for the CAFE laws, automotive engineering would have probably never moved forward. At least in the states. So many missed opportunities for GM.
I don't know as towing with the wagon would have been a good idea. The distance from rear axle to rear bumper is significantly more than front wheel drive vehicles of today. I would think that the front end probably would have lifted way too much with the hitch weight, leaving no traction for pulling or stopping.
I have an affinity for wagons. And have owned Ford dodge GMC and vw and Chrysler over the years and would have loved to own either one of the toronado wagons loved your podcast .. very informative..
I always enjoy your videos. I think the 4 door wagon could have been successful with the front wheel drive and the features that could have been employed with not having the driveshaft. I would love to see you do a video on the Olds Custom Cruiser or any of the Clamshell Wagons.
Great topic and very nicely executed! I'd have been 6-7 years old when this came out in '66 . As a kid, I thought the Toronado looked like a futuristic spaceship! The 2 door wagon would have been decades ahead of anything else. Only that 2 door wagons in the mid-60's were out of style, which might have killed it. The 4 door wagon version didn't seem to have enough difference compared to what was available at the time...My two cents worth...
That Toro shooting brake would have been awesome to see on the roads. I remember when the actual car came out. I was a kid, too young to drive but I was floored by the styling. The Avanti, this 'Nado, the Charger and yes, even the Marlin really got me excited about automotive design as a kid. There was also someone in the area (Brookhaven, Long Island) who would drive by in his Cord once in a while and that was also a treat.
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I immediately envisioned this with the Vista Cruiser's glass.
I really like the 2-door Toronado wagon. Although without the dropping tailgate and a roof line that usually extends horizontally all the way to the back , it comes across to me more like a ground-breaking large concept batchback. Very sweet.
Adam, I certainly have to admit that when I called for more station wagon videos recently, this was not what I had in mind. The 2 door Nomadonado® 4:00 , the 7:08 Frankensmobile™ wagon and the 9:58 Curse of the 8 Door Hearse® are wagons I had never seen before and hope to never see again. On a serious note, you don't want front wheel drive when you are trying to tow your trailer up a steep boat ramp. Ask me how I know.🤨
The front drive had a lot of benefits, until you drove it. The understeer was unbelievable! I remember one time when I came to a 90 degree bend, driving at an perfectly safe speed for the conditions (it was wet). Turned the wheel......and the car just kept going straight. Right off the road. Happily nothing in my way. But I did love it. It looked like nothing else
Chop the roofline an inch and a half, and that two door Toronado would have a sleeker, less bulbous appearance than the original concept. I really like it, and if they would have built it for real back then, I believe the public would have loved it!!... It's like a super GT car.
The Toronado two door shooting brake is obviously very cool. I'd want one if I lived back in that era. A limited production run would have been appropriate for it if produced.
WOW! I'm 75 years old and have always been an Olds fan, starting with a 1954, 1956 Super 88 as a teenager, and moved up to 442s in my young crazy years and then a 1973 Toronado and later on, in the '80s went back to 88s. I had no idea Olds contemplated a Toronado wagon!! Good work on your part. As an aside, I didn't like it. Toronados had too much "class" to be a humble "station wagon" as we called them back then. What would be nest?? A corvette station wagon??!! ( OMG!) Keep up the good work!!! Love your channel.
Loved toronados my dad had a special edition 76 or 77 with an odd b piller/ rear window. Never saw another one. Also can you do a video on olds or buick bearing the higher level. Seem like 50's bucks were above olds but 60s and 70s olds were higher level than buick. I base this on the toronado being higher level than Riviera.
The 2-dr wagon is a stunner! Adam, your '58 Buick post tells of the year's doughy GM tryouts - that Buick an example. Many more 'might have been' clay-model pix exist. A story on them, please!
5:08 My mom had one of those "clamshell" wagons, and we kids HATED it. We preferred the Ford "two-way" tailgate on our previous station wagon, which would open "like a door," or fall "flat" for carrying something long.
This is a 1966 Toronado SHOOTING BRAKE concept; it's not a wagon. Only the bodywork behind the C pillar and above the beltline is altered. This would have been a truly fabulous addition to the 1966 Toronado lineup but the car was already all new and had the first front wheel drive system in an American car in many years. I can see why they didn't try it, although it would absolutely have been a hit with customers looking for a unique, elite style. The advantage of practicality would not be lost on folks, either.
The Toronado was gorgeous. They also had zero torque street for V8 fwd. The 2 door was nice. The rear and the hatch need a little more panache. They drove nicely. Don't forget the Pontiac Rageous wagon prototype. Great concept with horrible visuals.
I really like the two door style wagon. Also, years ago, there was an after-market manufacturer who made a four door Toronado that was incredibly handsome, in my view. It would be excellent if you could find any pictures or renderings of that vehicle.
The two door shooting brake concept (sportwagon) is by far the best looking.Could have been a success with the right marketing.And while talking about Toros,don't forget the custom made open car,used in the first season of Mannix.
I noticed that the 1st wagon had generic "show" license plates meaning it was not road worthy (either a sheet metal or fiberglass shell only), but the 2nd one had Michigan manufacturer "M" license plates, which made it legal to be driven on the street (along with the photo op in a home driveway). I wonder if the 2nd wagon was scrapped even though it was road worthy.
I like wagons. My uncle had an early 70s vista cruiser. I wish I had it today. It was pretty rusty but I am sure it could’ve been fixed. It’s too bad they didn’t make these wagons. I had a front wheel drive Volkswagen tdi sportwagen and I miss that car. Wagons can haul so much.
I think they were worried it would dilute the prestige of the car if they offered it as a common station wagon, at least under the Toronado nameplate. Although I think they could’ve dominated the fleet market if they employed the fwd in a wagon. Ambulance and hearse companies could have sold the extra room in back as an advantage.
1961 Lincoln Continental, was the first modern-era car with the projecting front fender “blades” which influenced nearly every luxury car design of the 1960s and beyond.
I'd never seen or heard of this idea. Thank you for sharing it, Adam. And I'd take the two-door one. As you mention, the Toronado lines just don't look right on the 4-door B-body wagon -- proportions are all wrong, and the windshield rake on it looks very out of place.
I definitely would have wanted the Oldsmobile tornado it would have been the perfect couples road trip car as well just around town. Allowing pets to also ride in comfort..
I finally bought a 1991 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser three months ago. After some mechanical work and renovation it will be ready for the SoCal roads.
I'd want the two door wagon because it looks amazing. It would also be in good company with the Nomad and Chevelle two door wagon.
You'd have to throw in a 1955 Pontiac Safari as well.
Agreed! 👍
@@petestaint8312Thanks
@@Colorado_Nativemy dad had one 😊
@@gerardcousineau3478 I worked at a B-O-P, Jeep and AMC dealership in high school, yes, I'm that old, and we had a guy bring in a Safari to trade. Everybody had to go outside and check it out. It was gorgeous. They had it sold before the guy traded it in.
That transaxle also enabled at least one rear-engine BBC V8 Vega Kammback wagon my friend's dad built in about 1980. What a monster.
I think someone did an Opel GT that way, too.
I once saw around 1976 in Dearborn a '66 Toronado with a Vista Cruiser wagon back grafted on! In progress. Staying a two door. Burned in my memory. It was coming toward me on a side street. I never saw or heard of it after. But it came to me it was a great combination. Far enough along to imagine it would have been finished. I never Googled it, but also haven't seen it in any of the thousands of car mags I've had over the decades
I’ve loved the 65-66 Toronado ever since they were introduced when I was an 11 year old kid, and that 2-door ‘Nomad’ design study just knocks my socks off.
Interesting video! I bought a ‘68 Toronado from a dentist in 1979. I drove it over 40K miles in the next 3 years. It was a terrific car and one of my favorites to this day. The styling of the back seat area was absolutely beautiful.
Those 68s had tons of power too. Had a 69. Love the flip up lights
Love the two door Toronado wagon - the successor to the Nomad!
The B-pilar looks Nomad inspired.
A two door Toronado wagon would have been super cool!
My dad had a 1977 Eldorado that he tried to tow a mid size boat with, it had plenty of power and the rear ended wasn’t too expensive to modify. Traction turned out the be the problem on more than a few boat ramps, steeper grades resulted in excessive wheel spin as you could not finesse the torque without lifting the front end.
Yes, after decades of towing with modest RWD sedans, I thought my new FWD car handled towing duties very well. And then I got to the boat ramp.......
I remember a 1983 movie called Survivors watching Walter Matthau drive a silver 1978 Eldorado getting chased down railroad tracks and getting stuck in a snowy ditch.
I had the opposite experience with my '81 Eldorado... Unlike the pickup truck or the Grand Am, the front wheels were up on dry ground and pulled the boat out without any slippage.
I have always liked station wagons since a kid in the 60s. I followed custom car shows and the car built for them. I also bought the model kits and some of those futuristic designs were station wagons. The family bought a 69 Chevy Concourse Estate wagon which I loved because I thought of it as a 69 Chevelle Wagon with the 300hp Turbo-Fire 350. We also had a 68 Vista-Cruser!
I just helped a friend by a 1969 Corvair convertible, just 1 hour ago. 140 4 carb 4 speed survivor, red black top black interior
A rare car. Only 6,000 Corvairs were produced for ‘69… the final year of the car.
The 66 wagon proposal would have pretty cool kind of an American "Shooting Break" how cool would that have been.
I liked the Olds Vista Cruiser wagon with the glass roof panels. That was really rad.
I always loved wagons. Some of my favorites are the 1968-1972 Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac Lemans, Oldsmobile Cutlass and Buick Sportwagon. Another favorite was the 1970 Buick Estate Wagon.
2:40 As a kid, I remember being _amazed_ at the "flat floor." I'd never seen that before (or actually since). Even my front-wheel-drive Acura has a "transmission hump" even though it's front-wheel drive.
Adds strength to the car...and somewhere for the exhaust to run on modern low cars?
The shooting brake concept looked very cool.
I would have loved ti have had the GM two door version, the others no. I love the 71 to 76 clam shell wagons with the 1976 Buick my all time favorite. It was the first new car we had when I was a kid. I have always loved that car and wish I still had it.
Definitely like the 2 door, shooting brake style wagon. I'd drive it today
Amazing how much room you would have with a flat floor in a 4 door wagon what a game changer it would have become
I always loved the Oldsmobile Toronado and think the two door wagon is equally as cool. I've never seen this before, thanks for sharing.
The first one you showed would work styling wise to this day.
A Toro wagon is an intriguing notion. The shooting brake style was especially interesting to me. That said, I imagine automakers made a lot of concepts and prototypes we’ve never seen.
Thanks for showing us these two, Adam.
Thanks for the info. As I've posted in other comments, GM ruled the styling world in the mid-sixties - and it didn't get much better than the '66 Toronado!
Although this was an interesting exercise, I'm sort of glad the Toronado style wasn't shared in its early years. It makes it seem a bit more special.
BTW, there were several other variations on the Toronado theme. I can't post a link, but Bill Mitchell had one shortened called the Toronado GT. Another interesting one was what was called the Mini Toro, designed to push stuck cars in the Oldsmobile factory parking lot during the winter. And then, of course, there was the Mannix convertible!
Keep up the great videos - always very informative and well-done.
@oldmancigars1869 Yes, I should have included "IMHO".😁
But I was not implying that the Toro was the best styled vehicle of the period, only that - IMHO - GM had more winning styles than other manufacturers during much of the 60s.
Total sales and styling are not unrelated, no matter how anyone feels about competing cars.
YMMV
The Mannix convertible was one of the coolest sixties picture Cars.
Except for the company Ford's Mannix drove, he always had cool cars.
I agree that the Tornado was oddly shaped. Although I have never liked GM cars, the '66 Riviera made the Olds look cobbled together. Mercury-Lincoln styling was much more appealing. Thanks to Adam for another interesting presentation.
GM (as well as Chrysler) may have ruled automotive styling in the late 50’s and very, very early 60’s, but their over the top styling came to roost once Ford came out with the 1960 Ford Galaxie 500 which made most of GM’s and Chrysler’s cars look completely outdated in 1960 with fins and gaudy styling. GM and Chrysler ruled the 50’s, but Ford ruled the 60’s with their styling and aesthetics that captured that decade really well. I’d argue the 1965 and 1966 Ford Galaxie 500 and LTD are probably the most 1960’s looking car from that decade, probably because of the unique ‘starburst’ taillights and double stacked headlights they used.
'63 Buick Riviera comes to mind...definitely the era when designers could flex some artistic license.
The more I watch these episodes the more I appreciate the time and effort that went into design of all 70s cars! So Unique 👍🏻
I would want the clam back rather than this hatch design. And I’d surely pick the oh so very very cool vista option! Imagine this with the vista treatment. 😮
FWD wagons certainly have their place, as proven by the proliferation of minivans in the years since these cars were designed. But the wagon at 7:10, with typical GM RWD proportions, including a huge rear overhang, would exacerbate the Achilles' heel of FWD vehicles, loss of uphill traction. I wouldn't want to drive the 707 Jetaway up a snowy hill either, but it was probably fine doing highway runs to and from airports. The near-hatchback at the start of the video was certainly ahead of its time; I don't think GM had any real hatchbacks in its lineup until the '71 Vega.
Checker cars had a almost flat floor in the rear seat in that era. They also made an 8 door wagon. I would love to see you do a video on Checker cars.
Yes, a Checker video is overdue.
You could practically wheel a motorcycle into the back of those Checker Cabs it was so big and flat back there.
@@ButterfatFarms We owned a Checker for over 50 years. We put so much different stuff back there! Bicycles fit great if you take the front wheel off. Furniture, boxes, you name it. The rear seat is behind the door when you open it so it’s a brilliant design.
@@evanswinford7165 The one time in my life I had a ride in a Checker I was taking a bicycle along with my luggage to the airport.
@@evanswinford7165Yup, rear seat behind the door opening just like a 1940 DeSoto, Dodge, etc. (I own a 1940 DeSoto)
I would say the 4 door wagon was an engineering mule to see how the structure and interior would work out. I really think Oldsmobile could had pulled off something like a 2 Door Sport Wagon. Look how many 2 door Cutlass they sold. I wonder if someone at Chrysler saw this concept when they did the Magnum Wagon during the Daimler era? Look how many other manufacturers used that Transmission concept in their Front Drive Cars. Renault and Chrysler are two that pop to my mind.
The Toronado transaxle, with its chain and the differential next to the engine oil pan, was , I believe, unique to GM, although it was originally patented by Ford when they were designing the Falcon platform, which had a front suspension specifically designed to accommodate half-shafts, in case they ever wanted to sell a FWD car. Renault , Chrysler and Saab all had FWD cars with longitudinal engines, but with them, the transmission was under, or behind the engine, with the differential in the middle or the front of the transmission, still avoiding the traction problems Cord faced with their differential ahead of the engine. GM originally used the "UPP", as they called it, in a FWD prototype of the F85, but went upmarket when it became obvious that the public wasn't interested in innovative smaller cars. The chain actually made its way into some of the X and FWD A cars, but I think all of their recent transaxles use only gears.
@@pcno2832 www.allpar.com/d3/images/mopar/42LE.jpg
Nice video Adam! I loved the 67 Eldorado.
I would love to see a video on the 1977/1978 Pontiac Trans Am Kammback wagons. I was a member of the Trans Am Club of America out in Pontiac at that time and had a good rapport with Bill Davis and some other GM designers. A great influence on an 18yo kid and Bill later gave me a great letter of reference when I got out of the US Navy and was seeking a job at GM in 1985.
The flush rear window glass treatment and rakishly forward angled B & C pillars on the 1st PoC vehicle were absolutely STUNNING as well as decades ahead of their time. GM’s design division was truly visionary during this halcyon era of the mid to late 60s.
Fantastic! Ashame GM didn't develop it further. It would have an excellent "Executive Sportsman" -- towing boats or the family vacation trailer, or an executive airport hauler and or salesman's wagon. Great ideas lost to history -- but for Adam! Thanks!
Bill Mitchell was a huge purveyor of split window designs and that's applied here. Consider the '40 era two door sedans, fifties three back window on Buicks and Olds, the '63 Corvette and the great '73 GM colonnade cars and their sail panel windows. Not many pick up on that
The shooting-brake-style version is pretty neat, it's too bad they didn't go for it. They could've borrowed a name from the company's past (we know how GM loves to do that) and called it the Toronado Nomad.
The four-door one, to paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson's remark about the first-generation Porsche Cayenne, looks like someone backed a Toronado partway into a shed. :)
(And as for the _eight-door_ one... that looks like one of those "panoramic phone camera fail" memes from a few years ago, where someone would try to take a panorama of a busy city street and end up creating a picture of a 200-foot-long bus with 30 wheels.)
simply call it Toronomad
I’m a huge fan of wagons - my last 6 cars before my current V70 were all wagons. They do everything an SUV does without all the weight, cost and unnecessary waste. The Toronado was such a handsome car and the wagon would have been amazing! Superb video and really enjoy your narration style.
I would rate the V70r wagon I had on the top of the best cars I had had . I finally sold it at 390k miles and it was still doing long trips. It's nickname was the "Swedish Impala" . The dogs loved the heated rear seat and the kids loved the third row hide hole seat.
THOS FRONT corners, they would slice a ped in half!! Love your channel!
That's what I would have drove in Death Race 2000.
Just started watching this one, Adam, but I was struck right off the bat when you state around the 3 minute mark that the front wheel drive arrangement wasn't offered again by Oldsmobile until the 1985 NINETY EIGHT. Aren't you over looking the 1980 Oldsmobile X car variant? (I think it was Omega), along with the Cutlass Ciera and the J body Firenza of 1982?
The 2nd wagon based on the Pontiac, from what I read a long time ago, had the rear tailgate set up in such a way that when lowered would touch or almost touch the ground (like a ramp). Because of the low floor, they said you could roll a motorbike right up into it...
Makes more sense than limiting the load floor with that middle bumper hump.
Wow, I never knew that glass bended on the clam shell wagons! I don’t think that 2 dr olds tornado would have sold well. I could just imagine that 4 door wagon with front wheel drive. It may have sold great up north with winter driving.
the Toronado was never sold as a 4 door car.... only 2 door.
I love your varied and fascinating content! Keep it coming and thanks for the wholesome entertainment.
I love the 2 door, but a combo of the ‘71-‘76 full-sized wagons with the front wheel drive platform would have been the bomb. The clamshell tailgate and air suspension in the rear would have been revolutionary.
Without the differential hump, the third row would have been usable by people over 3 feet tall.
I agree. If the 98, Electra, and Grand Ville C bodies had the front drive platform, the wagon could have had that, too. It would have been a better choice.
That last Toronado wagon I think was meant to be used as an airfield passenger shuttle, not necessarily taking corners out on roads as a limo. Other makes of that style stretch wagon were commonly used for that application. I'm sure it could be done though -I've seen late model limos nearly as long manage those in city streets somehow🙂
They weren't just sold as airport shuttles there's photos of one in the UK that was originally from a hotel on Hilton Head Island in South Carolina and was exported to the UK in 1979.
I think they already had causeway access to Hilton Head Island back then so not sure what they needed them for. In my mind's eye I want to picture a Fantasy Island like scenario where you fly in and deboard the seaplane and instead of getting into a Red Chrysler wagon with no doors ala Fantasy Island it's one of these instead to take you to the resort. 😂
@@ButterfatFarms Either one honestly sounds better to ride in than the one used in "Dog day Afternoon". This video immediately reminded me of that one for some reason🙂
What If, indeed! I've always thought that Oldsmobile truly ended when the Toronado ended. For me, the T always represented excellence from bumper to bumper. What If Olds had green-lit the shooting brake T? Maybe Olds would have ended up preempting Chrysler, years later with the FWD minivan! Who knows? When you see your chance take it, someone else would take it. What say you Adam?
The Toronado was ahead of its time . Back then, car makers never even thought about front wheel drive and flat floors. Mr. OLDS WAS A VERY SMART MAN !
By far the first concept proposal. Absolutely gorgeous and handsome 2 door design. Thank you for everything you do in your videos.
Very interesting. Shows that GM recognised the packaging advantages of FWD and were looking into how that could be leveraged for other vehicles that eventually resulted in that seminal RV. I don't see that last vehicle as a Toronado with a weird back end but a Station Wagon with a temporary front.
Most likely a pre 66 engineering mule, to test the drive train. I saw a 79 Mustang front end on a Fairmont sedan in a preproduction Ford test caravan.
Omg I have to say as a long time car enthusiast I have never seen this exactly model. Learn something every day.
That roof line on the limo at the end gave me the "Vista Cruiser" vibe.
The two door back windows give me an AMC Pacer vibe.
I think that iteration of the old tornado wagon was stylish and very beautiful. And could you imagine what that would be worth today if they had actually put it in production
The difference would probably be about the equivalent of the difference between a Volvo P1800 and the 1800ES shooting break.
On the Toronado Wagon the rear side glass has a bit of an AMC Pacer look to them. Adam, your right, the four door wagon, looks lame, having a "high-end" two door wagon harkens back to the 55 through the 57 Nomads. The AQC wagon resembles the GMC Greyhound Scenicruiser bus, that was designed by Raymond Loewy. Thanks for your time, work and posting
I remember my dad saying he would never buy a fwd Toronado because "it was chain drive and chains break". But look at that chain! I don't think it was ever a problem.
The two door breadvan style is a missed opportunity...would have been cost effective, too - shared components. The four door was pretty homely. The airport jitney is incredible!
The 2 door was congruous with the design. Fully baked idea!
I've never seen this before. What a fantastic find. Interestingly, it has an ever so slight resemblance to the rear quarter of the Chevy Citation design which was designed perhaps just 15 years or so later by GM and of course also front wheel drive. Even the wheels have a similar design to the original Chevy Citation wheels as well as somewhat similar tail lights. That tapered rear end design followed right along to even the 1984 Chevy Citation IV Concept Car. Maybe the Citation was indeed the evolutionary path of these initial ideas. The 4-door wagon would definitely have been the more practical and perhaps more profitable offering rather than the motorhome. It would have transformed the auto industry 20 years ahead of its time. I'm sure a higher cost of production was the cause of it not going forward. Cars were enormous back then, with the rear-drive drivetrain stealing a good 8 to 10 inches or more of interior floor space. Not to mention the constant problem of legroom and comfort for those passengers seated in center seats. My father had a 1971 Pontiac Catalina Grand Safari Station Wagon. As a kid, I often had to sit in the 3rd row jump-seat which literally sat on top of the rear differential. Legroom, even for a kid, was barely existent. And the heat produced by the rear differential, made the situation even more uncomfortable. This front drive design would have been a true game-changer. Honestly, had it not been for the CAFE laws, automotive engineering would have probably never moved forward. At least in the states. So many missed opportunities for GM.
I don't know as towing with the wagon would have been a good idea. The distance from rear axle to rear bumper is significantly more than front wheel drive vehicles of today. I would think that the front end probably would have lifted way too much with the hitch weight, leaving no traction for pulling or stopping.
I have an affinity for wagons. And have owned Ford dodge GMC and vw and Chrysler over the years and would have loved to own either one of the toronado wagons loved your podcast .. very informative..
Worlds largest three door hatchback! Homely sucker.
Thanks for the great videos.
I always enjoy your videos. I think the 4 door wagon could have been successful with the front wheel drive and the features that could have been employed with not having the driveshaft. I would love to see you do a video on the Olds Custom Cruiser or any of the Clamshell Wagons.
Great topic and very nicely executed! I'd have been 6-7 years old when this came out in '66 . As a kid, I thought the Toronado looked like a futuristic spaceship! The 2 door wagon would have been decades ahead of anything else. Only that 2 door wagons in the mid-60's were out of style, which might have killed it. The 4 door wagon version didn't seem to have enough difference compared to what was available at the time...My two cents worth...
You don't think the flat floor would have made a huge difference? I think it might have.
That Toro shooting brake would have been awesome to see on the roads. I remember when the actual car came out. I was a kid, too young to drive but I was floored by the styling. The Avanti, this 'Nado, the Charger and yes, even the Marlin really got me excited about automotive design as a kid. There was also someone in the area (Brookhaven, Long Island) who would drive by in his Cord once in a while and that was also a treat.
I immediately envisioned this with the Vista Cruiser's glass.
I really like the 2-door Toronado wagon. Although without the dropping tailgate and a roof line that usually extends horizontally all the way to the back , it comes across to me more like a ground-breaking large concept batchback. Very sweet.
I had 78 chevy caprice wagon..back facing seat.elec
Back window....bring back front bench seats....sooo.romantic...
I'll join the chorus and say this would have been a fabulous revival of the Chevy Nomad, even if a bit expensive.
The Toro would have made a beautiful wagon, but would need careful styling for the rear.
Adam, I certainly have to admit that when I called for more station wagon videos recently, this was not what I had in mind. The 2 door Nomadonado® 4:00 , the 7:08 Frankensmobile™ wagon and the 9:58 Curse of the 8 Door Hearse® are wagons I had never seen before and hope to never see again. On a serious note, you don't want front wheel drive when you are trying to tow your trailer up a steep boat ramp. Ask me how I know.🤨
I imagine for the same reason pick-up trucks remain rear wheel drive. Traction issues when hauling a rear mounted load.
The front drive had a lot of benefits, until you drove it. The understeer was unbelievable! I remember one time when I came to a 90 degree bend, driving at an perfectly safe speed for the conditions (it was wet). Turned the wheel......and the car just kept going straight. Right off the road. Happily nothing in my way. But I did love it. It looked like nothing else
The more I look at the second wagon , the more I like it
I think you forgot about the Olds Firenza that offered front wheel drive in both a sedan and wagon starting in 1982.
I heard that the Eurpeons told them 200 hp. max with front wheel drive.
GM in response;
"Hold my beer, Fraulein!"
I had a 1979 Toronado, and a 2 door type wagon would have been an awesome addition to the line up.
Chop the roofline an inch and a half, and that two door Toronado would have a sleeker, less bulbous appearance than the original concept. I really like it, and if they would have built it for real back then, I believe the public would have loved it!!... It's like a super GT car.
That's one of the most beautifully styled cars I've ever seen in my whole life and in a fantastic color !
Whoa, you DEFINITELY don't wanna get hit by that walking across the road!
I grew up in station wagons and that 2 door Toronado is wicked cool.
It kinda resembles Buicks latest station wagon the Regal Tour X.
Neat stuff.
The Toronado two door shooting brake is obviously very cool. I'd want one if I lived back in that era. A limited production run would have been appropriate for it if produced.
My first reaction to this photo was, it looks like an AMC Pacer!🤔
WOW! I'm 75 years old and have always been an Olds fan, starting with a 1954, 1956 Super 88 as a teenager, and moved up to 442s in my young crazy years and then a 1973 Toronado and later on, in the '80s went back to 88s. I had no idea Olds contemplated a Toronado wagon!! Good work on your part. As an aside, I didn't like it. Toronados had too much "class" to be a humble "station wagon" as we called them back then. What would be nest?? A corvette station wagon??!! ( OMG!) Keep up the good work!!! Love your channel.
Lincoln had "blade" style fenders in 1961 on the Continental. This was an interesting video about an attractive Toronado proposal. Thanks.
Loved toronados my dad had a special edition 76 or 77 with an odd b piller/ rear window. Never saw another one. Also can you do a video on olds or buick bearing the higher level. Seem like 50's bucks were above olds but 60s and 70s olds were higher level than buick. I base this on the toronado being higher level than Riviera.
The 2-dr wagon is a stunner! Adam, your '58 Buick post tells of the year's doughy GM tryouts - that Buick an example. Many more 'might have been' clay-model pix exist. A story on them, please!
Am I the only one who sees in the back third of the this Torowagonado concept a little bit of the 14 years henceforth Chevrolet Citation?
Those back quarter windows look very Pacer-like to me, just smooshed down a bit to get a lower roofline.
Yes. And I still want A CTS wagon some day. Can you hear me Santa? Make it a V please.
5:08 My mom had one of those "clamshell" wagons, and we kids HATED it.
We preferred the Ford "two-way" tailgate on our previous station wagon, which would open "like a door," or fall "flat" for carrying something long.
This is a 1966 Toronado SHOOTING BRAKE concept; it's not a wagon. Only the bodywork behind the C pillar and above the beltline is altered. This would have been a truly fabulous addition to the 1966 Toronado lineup but the car was already all new and had the first front wheel drive system in an American car in many years. I can see why they didn't try it, although it would absolutely have been a hit with customers looking for a unique, elite style. The advantage of practicality would not be lost on folks, either.
I see Citation X11 all over the Toronado wagon design!
The Toronado was gorgeous. They also had zero torque street for V8 fwd. The 2 door was nice. The rear and the hatch need a little more panache. They drove nicely. Don't forget the Pontiac Rageous wagon prototype. Great concept with horrible visuals.
I really like the two door style wagon. Also, years ago, there was an after-market manufacturer who made a four door Toronado that was incredibly handsome, in my view. It would be excellent if you could find any pictures or renderings of that vehicle.
I like both of those wagons. But 4dr is more practical. 😊
The two door shooting brake concept (sportwagon) is by far the best looking.Could have been a success with the right marketing.And while talking about Toros,don't forget the custom made open car,used in the first season of Mannix.
I noticed that the 1st wagon had generic "show" license plates meaning it was not road worthy (either a sheet metal or fiberglass shell only), but the 2nd one had Michigan manufacturer "M" license plates, which made it legal to be driven on the street (along with the photo op in a home driveway). I wonder if the 2nd wagon was scrapped even though it was road worthy.
I like wagons. My uncle had an early 70s vista cruiser. I wish I had it today. It was pretty rusty but I am sure it could’ve been fixed. It’s too bad they didn’t make these wagons. I had a front wheel drive Volkswagen tdi sportwagen and I miss that car. Wagons can haul so much.
I think they were worried it would dilute the prestige of the car if they offered it as a common station wagon, at least under the Toronado nameplate. Although I think they could’ve dominated the fleet market if they employed the fwd in a wagon. Ambulance and hearse companies could have sold the extra room in back as an advantage.
Thanks for the video, as always, a very informative and interesting piece. 👍
1961 Lincoln Continental, was the first modern-era car with the projecting front fender “blades” which influenced nearly every luxury car design of the 1960s and beyond.
The '66 Toronado Wagon Prototype Design was cool, as U said Adam😎🤲
I always thought the Toronado was a riff on the Cord Beverly. I think GM got the retro revival idea from Imperial (1960 LeBaron)
I'd never seen or heard of this idea. Thank you for sharing it, Adam. And I'd take the two-door one. As you mention, the Toronado lines just don't look right on the 4-door B-body wagon -- proportions are all wrong, and the windshield rake on it looks very out of place.
I definitely would have wanted the Oldsmobile tornado it would have been the perfect couples road trip car as well just around town. Allowing pets to also ride in comfort..
Wow. Seems like a precursor to the midsized wagons in the 70s