Hi John, I really appreciate your content. Having said that, I admit that I mostly listen to you when in bed. In todays video I recognize that you started speaking much faster than at the end of the video. Are you still nervous with every video? 🙂
Morgoth didn’t curse Turin, he tricked him into effectively psychologically ‘cursing’ himself. Seems like deception and manipulation that would be right up his alley.
Never thought of the Finduilas thing. It was always my contention that if Turin wasn’t so prideful and went back to Doriath, much would’ve been different. His mother and sister would’ve eventually joined him. It’s possible Turin may have become restless and wanted to fight the enemy, but knowing how Thingol loved him and having a home to come back to, so many tragedies could’ve been avoided. I don’t think Nargothrond could’ve held out forever-bridge or no bridge-but it’s possible the Dwarven attack would’ve never happened; Melian’s Girdle would’ve stood for much longer, and as Morgoth was unwilling to leave Angband, his forces could not breech the enchantments. Turin’s pride was his greatest sin that cost so many their lives.
Question: would Sauron have survived as a physical being if he had not been in the tower when it crashed. If yes, could he have won or laid low and succeeded later?
Likely not. If he was an incarnate, he would have wound up sort of like Saruaman, with no power, but still with his body. However as a discarnate Ainu, it takes a certain amount of power to maintain his fana, which he would be too weak to.
Am I crazy, or do I remember a section of some book where Gandalf talks to several members of the fellowship after Saurons fall about what he knew, or what he guessed along the way? I remember it but I can't find it anywhere.
You're likely thinking of "The Quest for Erebor" in Unfinished Tales, in which Gandalf recounts to the Hobbits and Gimli a lot of the past from his perspective, most notably the stuff regarding Bilbo, The Necromancer and Smaug.
Save an hour here: The answer is in the Silmarillion. Their were no reincarnated Elves. Glorifindel is a narrative paradox that was not resolved before Tolkien's death. (And as a unsolved mystery makes things more interesting). And Luthien was a special case involving the intervention of the Valar, and in any case having returned to Earth as a human. Beren and Luthien clearly lived out their days from the point of the adults they were, when they died.
Firstly, the question in the thumbnail and title is only a small part of the video. You are not saving anyone any time. Especially since you're wrong. I'd tell you to crack open copies of both The Peoples of Middle-Earth and Morgoth's Ring, since you think you're the expert.
@@John-Sierra No rancor, friend. But I will stick to Prof. Tolkien's books. What he would have done may be interesting to speculate on, but is irrelevant to the question. Also considering that Elf reincarnation would have opened the awkward question of why they didn't just keep coming back in the thousands to fight the good fight, AND that it would have undermined the impact of heroic and tragic Elf deaths, that had huge effects on the history of Middle Earth [ e.g. The Battle of Unumbered Tears really wouldn't pack the same punch if the gang could simply return; Thingol just returns after death and Melian isn't sad, the Girld of Melian doesn't fail, etc] it is obvious why it was never introduced except as an extraordinary and remote possibility. Elves could return, but once passing to the Halls of Mandos the call of Middle Earth abated and the Undying Lands were the place to be. The point of the Silmarillion is that it chronicles the corruption and fall of the Noldor. It after all must be a story of a series of tragedies, that build to redemption facilitated by Earendil. That is the story. Reincarnation doesn't work in that context. It is also silly to suppose Elves, should they choose to, would return as babies. What if their parents were dead? Would they be born of a different mother? If so they would not be who they were. That is just the same as a regular elven birth. It is established that humans could come back, as adults. I think that should settle that.
If you want to stick to Tolkien's books then actually read the ones I mentioned. They were not written by other people, all 12 volumes of The History of Middle Earth, which includes both The Peoples of Middle-Earth and Morgoth's Ring were all written by J.R.R. Tolkien. There are notes in them from his son commenting on his father's work, but they were all written by him. Also written by Tolkien was The Nature of Middle-Earth which is sort of the unofficial 13th entry. He also mentioned elvish reincarnation in his letters specifically. It'a also explained why they don't come back to Middle-Earth, and the exception made for Glorfindel. The elves are also not "reborn" from any mother, their spirits go to Mandos for a time, and then they get a new body identical to the old one - elves CANNOT pass from the world, with Lúthien being the only exception, just as men cannot become immortal with Tuor being the only exception. If you're going to pick and choose what you read, you're missing out on a lot of information. I never claimed elves return as babies, I said in the video that htey did not. You were so ready to write paragraphs that you didn't watcht he video, you wanted to "save time" for people by posting things that are false. No Rancor, but do not reply again in this vein. I have the done the research - for decades. There is a lot more to what Tolkien wrote than just The Silmarillion.
My personal hypothesis on Turin's curse (yes I am an aspiring physicist and so don't like using the tern "theory" willy nilly and so prefer the term "hypothesis" as it is more correct), is that it was indeed a curse but not by Morgoth but rather Iluvatar. If Turin is to be resurrected in the Dagor Dagorath to kill Morgoth then perhaps Iluvatar had meant for him to be the "chosen one" from before he was born. If I am not mistaken, Iluvatar made Arda to show Morgoth how much of a dick he was and I think we can all agree that the children of Hurin shows the worst of Morgoth then perhaps Iluvatar had planned for this since the very beginning. I believe Morgoth merely perceived his misfortune and capitalised on it. I also believe this is how Gwindor "escaped" Morgoth foresaw Gwindor finding Turin and leading him to Nargothrond which conveniently led to its destruction. other things that makes me think the curse was real was the coincidences, I just find it strange that out of all swords Beleg chose at random, he chose Anglachel and out of all places Nienor could have ended up in, it was Brethil and specifically, the burial mound of Finduilas where I can imagine Turin would visit heaps, far more than anyone else, and then theere's the fact that its a mound, so uphill and me personally wouldn't run uphill when I'm about to pass out. As someone who taught himself calculus in early high school for fun, I think I've established myself in maths community and there's a running joke that the most unlikely thing is when nothing unlikely happens so I will not rule out these as just coincidences. Then there is the fact that Orodreth was so quick to trust and pretty much allowed him to become the de facto leader of Nargothond, I believe the curse had something to do with this. There is also the fact that Finduilas fell in love with him despite him being a dick and of course because she was betrothed to Gwindor and it just screams curse to me. I also don't think Morgoth could do this as that would involve effectively cursing individuals from afar so I believe this was Iluvatar showing Morgoth just how much of a dick he was. I'm not sure what you think of this hypothesis but it makes the most sense to me
Aragorn got mad at himself, when all his decisions seemingly went awry. Even then it wasn't rage.
Is that my boy Glorfiy as your thumbnail? Sweet.
Always look forward to these:) congrats on the tickets 🎉
Hi John, I really appreciate your content. Having said that, I admit that I mostly listen to you when in bed. In todays video I recognize that you started speaking much faster than at the end of the video. Are you still nervous with every video? 🙂
Not as much, I sometimes just get excited.
Morgoth didn’t curse Turin, he tricked him into effectively psychologically ‘cursing’ himself. Seems like deception and manipulation that would be right up his alley.
Pretty much, though in that overbearing way that was his trademark.
Never thought of the Finduilas thing. It was always my contention that if Turin wasn’t so prideful and went back to Doriath, much would’ve been different. His mother and sister would’ve eventually joined him. It’s possible Turin may have become restless and wanted to fight the enemy, but knowing how Thingol loved him and having a home to come back to, so many tragedies could’ve been avoided. I don’t think Nargothrond could’ve held out forever-bridge or no bridge-but it’s possible the Dwarven attack would’ve never happened; Melian’s Girdle would’ve stood for much longer, and as Morgoth was unwilling to leave Angband, his forces could not breech the enchantments. Turin’s pride was his greatest sin that cost so many their lives.
Question: would Sauron have survived as a physical being if he had not been in the tower when it crashed. If yes, could he have won or laid low and succeeded later?
Likely not. If he was an incarnate, he would have wound up sort of like Saruaman, with no power, but still with his body. However as a discarnate Ainu, it takes a certain amount of power to maintain his fana, which he would be too weak to.
Perhaps Aragorn lost his temper when he was traveling with Gollum? He admitted to treating him harshly....
Gandalf was the one who said he treated Gollum harshly. Aragorn just commented that Gollum smelled bad.
Am I crazy, or do I remember a section of some book where Gandalf talks to several members of the fellowship after Saurons fall about what he knew, or what he guessed along the way? I remember it but I can't find it anywhere.
You're likely thinking of "The Quest for Erebor" in Unfinished Tales, in which Gandalf recounts to the Hobbits and Gimli a lot of the past from his perspective, most notably the stuff regarding Bilbo, The Necromancer and Smaug.
@@John-Sierra much appreciated
1500 coming 💪💪💪
Got there!
Save an hour here: The answer is in the Silmarillion. Their were no reincarnated Elves. Glorifindel is a narrative paradox that was not resolved before Tolkien's death. (And as a unsolved mystery makes things more interesting). And Luthien was a special case involving the intervention of the Valar, and in any case having returned to Earth as a human. Beren and Luthien clearly lived out their days from the point of the adults they were, when they died.
Firstly, the question in the thumbnail and title is only a small part of the video. You are not saving anyone any time. Especially since you're wrong. I'd tell you to crack open copies of both The Peoples of Middle-Earth and Morgoth's Ring, since you think you're the expert.
@@John-Sierra No rancor, friend. But I will stick to Prof. Tolkien's books. What he would have done may be interesting to speculate on, but is irrelevant to the question. Also considering that Elf reincarnation would have opened the awkward question of why they didn't just keep coming back in the thousands to fight the good fight, AND that it would have undermined the impact of heroic and tragic Elf deaths, that had huge effects on the history of Middle Earth [ e.g. The Battle of Unumbered Tears really wouldn't pack the same punch if the gang could simply return; Thingol just returns after death and Melian isn't sad, the Girld of Melian doesn't fail, etc] it is obvious why it was never introduced except as an extraordinary and remote possibility. Elves could return, but once passing to the Halls of Mandos the call of Middle Earth abated and the Undying Lands were the place to be. The point of the Silmarillion is that it chronicles the corruption and fall of the Noldor. It after all must be a story of a series of tragedies, that build to redemption facilitated by Earendil. That is the story. Reincarnation doesn't work in that context. It is also silly to suppose Elves, should they choose to, would return as babies. What if their parents were dead? Would they be born of a different mother? If so they would not be who they were. That is just the same as a regular elven birth. It is established that humans could come back, as adults. I think that should settle that.
If you want to stick to Tolkien's books then actually read the ones I mentioned. They were not written by other people, all 12 volumes of The History of Middle Earth, which includes both The Peoples of Middle-Earth and Morgoth's Ring were all written by J.R.R. Tolkien. There are notes in them from his son commenting on his father's work, but they were all written by him. Also written by Tolkien was The Nature of Middle-Earth which is sort of the unofficial 13th entry.
He also mentioned elvish reincarnation in his letters specifically. It'a also explained why they don't come back to Middle-Earth, and the exception made for Glorfindel.
The elves are also not "reborn" from any mother, their spirits go to Mandos for a time, and then they get a new body identical to the old one - elves CANNOT pass from the world, with Lúthien being the only exception, just as men cannot become immortal with Tuor being the only exception. If you're going to pick and choose what you read, you're missing out on a lot of information.
I never claimed elves return as babies, I said in the video that htey did not. You were so ready to write paragraphs that you didn't watcht he video, you wanted to "save time" for people by posting things that are false.
No Rancor, but do not reply again in this vein. I have the done the research - for decades. There is a lot more to what Tolkien wrote than just The Silmarillion.
My personal hypothesis on Turin's curse (yes I am an aspiring physicist and so don't like using the tern "theory" willy nilly and so prefer the term "hypothesis" as it is more correct), is that it was indeed a curse but not by Morgoth but rather Iluvatar. If Turin is to be resurrected in the Dagor Dagorath to kill Morgoth then perhaps Iluvatar had meant for him to be the "chosen one" from before he was born. If I am not mistaken, Iluvatar made Arda to show Morgoth how much of a dick he was and I think we can all agree that the children of Hurin shows the worst of Morgoth then perhaps Iluvatar had planned for this since the very beginning. I believe Morgoth merely perceived his misfortune and capitalised on it. I also believe this is how Gwindor "escaped" Morgoth foresaw Gwindor finding Turin and leading him to Nargothrond which conveniently led to its destruction. other things that makes me think the curse was real was the coincidences, I just find it strange that out of all swords Beleg chose at random, he chose Anglachel and out of all places Nienor could have ended up in, it was Brethil and specifically, the burial mound of Finduilas where I can imagine Turin would visit heaps, far more than anyone else, and then theere's the fact that its a mound, so uphill and me personally wouldn't run uphill when I'm about to pass out. As someone who taught himself calculus in early high school for fun, I think I've established myself in maths community and there's a running joke that the most unlikely thing is when nothing unlikely happens so I will not rule out these as just coincidences. Then there is the fact that Orodreth was so quick to trust and pretty much allowed him to become the de facto leader of Nargothond, I believe the curse had something to do with this. There is also the fact that Finduilas fell in love with him despite him being a dick and of course because she was betrothed to Gwindor and it just screams curse to me. I also don't think Morgoth could do this as that would involve effectively cursing individuals from afar so I believe this was Iluvatar showing Morgoth just how much of a dick he was. I'm not sure what you think of this hypothesis but it makes the most sense to me