Responding to The Cessationist Documentary Part #1 - Cessationist Movie Review
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- Are the Charismatic gifts real? Speaking in tongues, prophesying, healing, and raising the dead - do these phenomena exist? Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians firmly believe in their authenticity, viewing them as miraculous occurrences. The new documentary "Cessationist" boldly asserts that they have ceased. Under the direction of Les Lanphere, the "Cessationist" film attempts to dismiss modern practices of spiritual gifts using speculation, church tradition, and human reasoning. Fortunately, the Word of God directly contradicts their confident assertions.
Tune in to watch The Remnant Radio team respond to arguments put forth by cessationists such as Nathan Busenitz, Tom Pennington, Steven J. Lawson, Sam Waldron, Jonathan Master, and Phil Johnson in this first installment of our "Cessationist" review. We'll address three key arguments: 1) The Authentication Argument, 2) The Cluster Argument, and 3) The Foundations Argument of Ephesians 2:20. It's worth noting that these are topics we've covered before. However, it seems the cessationist individuals failed to engage with any continuationist arguments during their two-hour documentary!
For our Cessationist Study Guide, subscribe to our newsletter at www.TheRemnantRadio.com. Thanks!
📖 Video Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
6:30 - The Authentication and Authority Argument
25:29 - The Cluster Argument About Periods of Miracles
50:08 - The Closure of the Canon Red-Herring
57:10 - The Ephesians 2:20 Foundations Argument
1:21:56 - Appeal To Cessationist Brothers
#remnantradio #cessationist #cessationistdocumentary #cessationistfilm #cessationistfullmovie #cessationistmoviereview #cessationistvscontinuationist #cessationistvscharismatic
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Josh Lewis' Church Kings Fellowship Church
kingsfellowshipchurch.com/
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Michael Miller's Church Reclamation Church
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raised baptist cessationist - my family's biggest arguments for being cessationist is tradition, they won't actually look at the text of scripture / continuation arguments. they only see the "charasmatic chaos" which turns them off to the whole thing. I've had dreams, a vision, a baptism of the HS, received a word and i still gaslight myself about my experiences because i was so indoctrinated to believe the gifts ceased. It's hard to develop new beliefs when tradition is so engrained but that's exactly what Jesus did with his time on earth and I want to honor him above everything else
In the movie Cessationist, they make the argument for cessationism using Scripture.
@@maxmustermann1206not well or consistently. Not a single consistent argument can be made for the ceasing of the gifts from scripture.
@@maxmustermann1206 Not a single verse affirms cessationism. Not one!!
As a Baptist, I don’t see any of the gifts still around. Continuists have to dumb down the gifts to say they’re still here. They have to redefine tongues away from its only clear definition found in Acts 2….there is none of that anymore. Prophecy is dumbed down to include Holy Spirit false prophecies…
@@mikeyant2445 Well, maybe stop basing your beliefs on your experience and rather what the word actually says.
God is currently untangling cessationist oriented views I’ve had. I’m so happy that God is still very active in performing miracles and healings for His people. Thank God He is so merciful.
EDIT:
Many in the comment sections are assuring me that I'm not fully grasping "what cessationists actually believe." Thank you, dear brothers and sisters for your rude displays of correction but I am quite aware that there are those beholden to cessationist theology that would affirm the "miraculous" while denying that these are achievable through the gifts. Although, I was making a generalization about the rank hostility towards the miraculous - and even the denial altogether from many, even contemporary cessationist thinkers. I think there are some rather unambiguous rejections of miracles altogether from current church leaders. It was a generalization about the spirit of cessationism and the harder edged forms of it.
Nevertheless, I do find it a bit odd that so many of you who hold cessationist views would affirm that God does indeed heal and does indeed perform miracles but for some reason would deny that we can and should pursue these things in our lives and in the body - especially when one considers that the command to do so is so unambiguous. Silly.
Praise God
But i’m a cessationist and I also believe God does miracles and heals people today 😂
Right? funny when i hear the arguments, and they say something that I completely accept. I'll stick to solid teaching from JMac, who also prays for the sick, just doesn't make a show about it, and claim to have special power from God, or claim that it's always will to heal. Who probably has accidentally foretold, while not claiming that God told Him, or tried to teach the prophetic gift lol. Or has cast out demons by the power of the gospel, and not by performance. @@GoodGospel_
That's not what a form of godliness but denying it's power means... read the context.... it means living a transformed life, and not performing rituals, or pagan practices which honestly looked a lot like babbling, and ecstatic experiences.@@Rileyed
Clearly you don’t know what cessationist believe. They absolutely believe that God does miracles and heals people. Cessationist don’t believe that God is powerless.
I want to see a documentary titled “Continuationist” that features you guys! Thank you for using your intelligence and faith for the glory of God. You are gracious, kind, yet bold. Keep going! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
they need to do this!!
I am not a Cessationist but there are way to many false prophets, and these deliverance groups are out of control.
Continuationism doesn't deny the existence of false prophets, but cessationists can't properly discern who's false because they all look false to them (even true prophets). You can't properly discern what's authentic and what's fake if you believe it's all fake. The Pharoah in Exodus had a guy doing false/counterfeit signs and wonders in response to Moses doing signs and wonders. Continuationists on the other hand know (or at least should know) how to discern between false and authentic. Watch who's getting the glory. When it's truly from God it glorifies God.
That doesn’t take away from sound doctrine, I’m sure there’s false prophets everywhere
@@frankbartholomew150 If there are false prophets, there are true prophets that you need to discern by using the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
@@healingthroughchrist1988amen!
Because you don’t understand this don’t mean it’s not from God
Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.”
Mark 9:38-40
When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.””
John 21:21-22
Reformed believer here 🙋🏽♂️I do believe in the gifts today. I enjoyed the video but I did see a disconnect between the two groups. Primarily when you talked about the cessationist’s motives for why they believe this or teach this. I agree 100% that it can be “group think” but it’s much more than that. This conversation is so nuanced, in order to really get to the heart you would need both parties to come together and define their terms. Ultimately what I’ve seen from my community is this desire to guard against false miracles and false conversions. We would be foolish to believe every “sign and wonder” is truly of God. Even you guys pointed out those in scripture who did miracles and were not of God. Unfortunately in America our “version” of Christianity by and large is just that..and it’s been a stain on the Christian church within our country within different ethnic communities. I remember MacArthur and Piper I believe having a conversation about this and what I took from it was that those like MacArthur while they do not believe God speaks prophetically through men because of the full revelation of scripture..they DO BELIEVE in miracles today..their concern again is towards the false movement disguised as Christian. While I agree 100% with many of my brothers in this film..I disagree with the fact that it seems to be throwing the baby out with the bath water. We are commanded to lay hands on the sick. There is prophesy about young men and women having dreams. We don’t build ministries around our “spiritual experiences” because unfortunately we are in a sinful flesh and we can be deceived even the best of us. The word of God is the foundation of our faith. I believe the Spirit can speak to me to tell someone something..but it’s always something that can be backed up with scripture..for instance a guy who needed food at the airport. I felt led to share my testimony of what God did for me with him and to tell him about Gods love and that he should trust in Christ for all his needs. I shared with him that sometimes God allows us to experience things just to get our full attention..he’s always speaking to us but we have to see it. I believe God used me that day. What I am against is when I was younger my church brought a “prophet” to speak and he kept trying to force people to fall on the ground..he didn’t mention any good news about Christ..only about him telling his members they were going to get cars and houses and they actually got cars and houses..that was the proof for why we needed to trust him..but he provided no real substance. No real good news about Christ…only material stuff. This kind of stuff is what I would argue is the largest percentage of Americas false conversion and false religion. It’s not the Gospel of Christ that is the power of their salvation it’s the experience…and what you “win people with” you also “win them to that very thing” when the blessings or miracles stop…so does their relationship with God because it’s only built on experiences. Gods word never changes. I said a lot more than what I wanted to..but I appreciate the attempt to not ridicule cessationist. The war isn’t against you brothers..it’s against those who claim to be in your camp but are wolf in sheep clothing..we have that in both camps regardless of what you believe about continuation of the gifts. The war is against those guys.
I feel that’s a cop out for cessationism. I came from a church that believes the gifts cease to exist, unless of course God wants to do something miraculous.
You can’t conclude because there are abuses of power that every experience is false and then teach everyone the gifts cease to exist. Even the Bible confirms people are performing miracles and they don’t know God. So yes, people misuse the gifts for sure but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Instead teach people they need to learn to discern. Cessationism is creating so much confusion and shutting down things that God wants to do because people refuse to believe He can use them. He’ll just use someone else but that unbelieving person is mission out on a greater move of God and a deeper relationship with God. It’s sad.
@@tiffanysumner-ff5dh I agree with some points. Of course I’d agree it can be a cop out. I’d be careful though when you say things like “missing out on a deeper relationship with God”. It sounds like you’re assuming you’d have more of a “deeper” relationship with God than a Paul Washer etc. Again you can say cessationism causes confusion and that is true but I and many others have been confused by the other side as well..probably even more so with those who claim I’m not a believe just because I don’t speak in tongues..even though I literally know more English, Spanish, Hebrew and Greek than most people who claim to speak in tongues.
Also I would warn against using your personal experience as a means to understand what cessationism is. Again not all cessationist believe God absolutely did a way with all gifts. We have to define our terms and be more specific. This isn’t coming from me this is what I’ve heard even from a John MacArthur..again videos on UA-cam don’t do justice to one’s theology. I was just at G3 a few weeks ago when this documentary was released or shown..the guys who were in the film were there. Not sure if you were there but I would suggest if you ever get the chance to actually talk to these guys to do so and to ask them personally. You’d be shocked what you’d learn about a persons believe when you speak to them face to face and are able to have a real dialogue. I’ve preached and done debates before..and every time I’m always concerned that people may take things the wrong way or misunderstand what I’m saying. Sure a MacArthur or Phil Johnson etc wouldn’t agree with everything you may agree with but to say that these guys don’t have as deep of a relationship with God because they think differently than you or I is a little alarming to say the lease. I don’t want to misjudge you but it sounds like you believe spiritual experiences are at the forefront of what makes one’s relationship with God “deep”. I’d ask you to show me in scripture where you get that from..I never see Jesus teaching on that. What I do see is loving God and loving people or obeying God. I see sharing the Gospel and believing/obeying the Gospel..but I think some of your language is what these guys are trying to prevent. To belittle someone’s relationship with God or to classify it as not as “deep” in my opinion is not healthy..especially given the standard that you seem to be giving. Knowing the Word of God yes..bearing fruit of course..but I would never tell someone their relationship isn’t as “deep” as mine because they haven’t had the same experiences as I have. That’s not needed for salvation..just focus on the basics like the thief on the cross. The standard is our faith in Christ and who we acknowledge him as..not by how many dreams I’ve had or what I feel God speaking to me..or even what God can do through me. The focus isn’t on me or what I can or can’t do..the focus should be on Christ. If anything is “deep” it’s that. Again I’d ask what command or verse teaches us as Christian’s to focus on this thing you call “deep”. As say this all in love❤️
Thank you for this! Very well put. I agree 100% with you
By reformed you mean calvinist because that's what reform means ,calvinist always hiding with other names like reformed or Doctrine of grace
At the Remnant Conference, I sat next to some amazing brothers and sisters who had recently left their positions as pastors in cessationist traditions after being exposed to the gifts. It was beautiful to hear their stories and testimonies.
On a personal note: That conference was top-notch. I gleaned so much from the teachings. Well done, gents.
So excited to do another one! Thank you for coming!
Wasn’t able to make the Healing and Deliverance conference - would love the chance if you all have one in OKC!
❤
Praise God @Jason ... Thanks for being at the conference!
@@JasonShoots Thanks for asking, the context can be found by reading through 1 Corinthians Chapters 12, 13, and 14 where the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" are discussed in detail by the Apostle Paul.
Blessings
The irony is most of the arguments used by the cessation camp are extra biblical! I really cannot find any verses that teach the end of the gifts and so I find myself in that wonderfully strange place; theologically reformed charismatic who passionately believes in the inerrancy and infallibility of scripture AND continuation of gifts.
Does the bible say explicitly that the office of Apostle in terms of the original 12 will cease? Yet, they said it has ceased.
Same! Reformed Charismatic Baptist here. Tough crowd to be in for sure
Thank you. I’m married to a cessationist husband, while I am open to the works and all of the gifts of the Spirit. This has been beyond frustrating. Please pray for those of us married to those whose eyes aren’t open to these important truths and deny the power of God for today. I have found that even providing the scriptural support for continuationism only goes so far. There’s something deeper spiritually that cessationists need to be delivered from, I believe. Some sort of spiritual stronghold.
I believe it is a religious spirit and they need deliverance, but I know how difficult it is to perform a deliverance on a spouse who is in denial. I'm speaking from the same experience as you.
Amen sister! I live in a smallish city in CO, Craig and have Parkinson’s, only been here a year and had to come a year ago from a good Calvary Chapel in Spokane due to my PD. I have limited mobility so have to go to a cessationist Baptist church, drives me up the wall so I get it. Praying for you
Read my comment at the top.
Show me strong thru the Bible teaching and preaching gifts, and not just teaching not just about the gifts, and I will take another look. I have seen both sides for many years, and have seen very little deep Bible understanding from those raised in pentecost. Blessings
@@davidkunze2770 I would agree with that assessment
I've been a cessationist from day one of becoming a Christian back in 2015. I'm not sure why but It just seemed to be my default position even though I hadn't done a deep study into it. I just assumed that these things must have ceased since I had never experienced it or seen anything and I've always been a very skeptical person so I've always doubted the claims of Charismatics who said they saw these things. When I stumbled upon cessationism it just confirmed my already held bias.
Just over a year ago I started attending a charismatic church and I was shocked to find they are nothing like the crazy stuff I've seen online which took me by shock. I was expecting people rolling around on the floor and everyone speaking in tongues and prophecying and healing. But actually it was more like a normal church. I've only seen tongues a handful of times and usually when someone says they have received a prophecy it's usually just a picture that has come to mind or and not treated as "thus said the lord" so this got me reassessing my position. I'm still wrestling with it all but I've definitely come to the position that cessationism isn't in the Bible and listening to you guys is helping me.
I definitely wouldn't call myself a cessationist anymore but I wouldn't say I'm charismatic either but I'm definitely a continuationist with questions and this I need to figure out.
I'd say this is not a charismatic church. It's very conservative by your description.
@@tristen7085 They are part of a charismatic denomination and call themselves charismatic. They practice the gifts but in an orderly manner and not a free for all. Why do you think that's not charismatic?
It sounds similar to how we would also practice the gifts. The cessationists typically only put on film the worst of charismaticism. Scare tactics work. Granted there have also been some bad apples on tv like the farting preacher, Bob Tilton. 😉
@@michaelmiller5024
Farting preacher? That's a new one.
@@mikecasale438 look him up on UA-cam. You'll thank me!
I love you guys soo much because I've learned so much from you and it changed my life!
A friend from Fiji told me about his really extreme night terrors. And how he thinks he is cursed by his relatives. I prayed over him and against every evil spirit and now he's free 🔥😃
Praise JESUS!!
Amen😊❤️🙏🏼!
I’ve gone from staunch cessationist to transforming continuist over the past 3-4 years! Currently planting a church in CT with our mission of Pursuing a Spirit led walk”
That's great!!!
Where in CT? I love live here
As some one who has seen both sides (age 74) I see very little true expository Bible teaching from the pentecostal or chrismatic side. I am talking of those born and raised as continuationist. Very sad.
@@davidkunze2770what are you talking about? There are many continuists who teach the Bible well . Are you currently a cessationist ?
I am speaking as a classic pentecostal, Assembly of God. I do speak in tongues and also interpret some. However, I have experienced both, and the pentecostal side is very weak, in whole Bible teaching. Just my experience, which includes much teaching over the years. Blessings.
Awesome stuff! I love how much love you guys have for brothers who don't agree with you.
It’s so hard for me to even think of the word Cessassionist … I’m living proof the Lord still does miracles, signs, and wonders! Thank you Jesus and your Holy Spirit …
These signs shall follow those who believe ❤
✝️🩸✝️
I am so blessed by your ministry of teaching and equipping. I am listening driving home on my commute after this has been recorded. I am thanking God for men who speak the truth, teach the word and walk in power. Then the Lord reminded me- of course there are. This is his work . His remnant he has reserved for himself.
When will Remnant Radio point out the false teachers and false prophets within your own charismatic movements??
^this
They won’t
Don’t be fake, name drop em
Imagine saying you’re a Christian, and going out of your way to disprove the power of God/Holy Spirit…😬. I believe the reason is based solely on pride. It’s ppl who haven’t experienced those things so don’t want to feel like they are lacking
It's actually the case. I've heard MacArthur say that God wouldn't give gifts to "charlatans" when genuine folks like Reformed believers are around.
@@fidelamoah9115 just man trying to justify why he hasn’t received it
I think Justin Peters is just very sad that he has not been healed 😢
@@bjrgstre-mauger5398 that’s a good point…🙏. Frustration that he hasn’t experienced those things yet, so claims they just don’t exist. Encounter him powerfully oh Lord!! 🔥🙌🏻
@@jaredpribyl amen 🙏
As a Seminary student, I appreciate the dialogue concerning this topic. It is the most divisive topic between protestants. It seems that the wisdom of man wants to replace the fullness of the Spirit for the cessasionists.
That’s good !!! Amen
Sat in a Presbyterian church for decades (growing up). No conversions, no emotional/spiritual/physical healing. No tears. No comfort. I go to a Pentecostal church now. 115 conversions in 3 WEEKS. People that will weep with you when the tears come. I’m NEVER going back to frozen chosen.
Having experienced both sides also, I feel sorry for these churches that don't experience any of the gifts as they are missing out. I am sure some are still saved but they are missing out. There are a lot of false people pushing the gifts but they do that for money, just as the big calvinist churches do. But if you get involved with plain old God loving, Bible believing Christians, it is the best of experiences.
Beautiful job guys. God Bless You! So thankful my husband and I found your podcast.🙏🏽
Our pleasure!
I knew this was coming up. So glad to hear y’all’s thoughts on this doc. Will definitely watch all the videos of this series. I especially want to see what they say about apostles and prophets as I am researching the topic a lot as of late. Love the nuance and detail to these arguments that you all provide. So refreshing! Keep it up!
Thanks for the encuragement!
thanks for the podcast, i pray for your lifes and ministeries, im a presbiterian pastor here in Brasil
Praise God thanks for watching
Awesome! Thank you for watching!!!
If the gifts ceased, how do they explain the two witnesses in Revelation???
Very cerfully
@@TheRemnantRadio 😂
oh my...
This is true. The two witnesses are a fly in their ointment.
Thanks, good point.
Thanks Remnant Radio! When I was a cessationist I believed God performed miracles but didn't want to be like "those people," didn't like the way "they" acted on TV and was freaked out by tongues. Looking back on those days I see that I was pre-judging folks that I didn't even know. I eventually learned that folks who believe that the gifts continue are no more a homogeneous monolith than are folks that believe the gifts have ceased. Getting to know real people who also prayed for the sick was really helpful. Remnant, I think you guys do a great job of speaking Biblically about the gifts of the Spirit and also being good dudes that people can get to know a bit, who may think differently than they do.
Thank you!
Great podcast! Looking forward to the sequels.
“And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Mark 16:17-18
Imagine if we actually just believed what Jesus said. We’d have a lot less debates about if it real and a lot more demonstration of the power of God.
I've encountered cessationists who tried to bring into question the authenticity of Mark 16:17-18 by claiming that it's not part of the original manuscripts. But that's also questioning the authority of the Bible and it feels like it's borderline heresy.
The tone is very different from the rest of Mark. It does stick out like a sore thumb. Regardless of its authenticity, there are plenty of other bits of Mark and the New Testament that smash cessationism to bits.
Excellent Response!! I grew up as a Baptist cessationist until I met Holy Spirit in 1992
Glad you liked it
✝️🩸✝️
When’s the next conference, guys?? I couldn’t make the one this September 2023 but excited and looking forward to y’all’s next one!!
Right now we are looking at June probably in Houston.
If you get a gift from the Holy Spirit, be confident He gives you the user manual. NEVER pay anyone to teach you or “help” you with your gift. You have the greatest Helper inside you, and He is free!
Wow! This was really a great conversation. The clearest and most biblical based I ever heard. I love that you guys didn't share experience and just Scripture.
There's a couple of things I want to go back a listen to because I wasn't quit clear what you were saying on some things. Got a bit distracted. But over all I am in complete agreement.
“The cure for abuse is not disuse but proper use.” Bill Johnson
Regarding Craig Keener's book on Miracles: Cessationists don't deny the fact the miracles happen. They are questioning whether or not someone has the gift of healing today. How would you guys tell the difference between the two?
I think that's sort of the problem. The underlying definition of the gifts for a cessationist is based on an assumption that the gift of healing is on command by the person gifted. This is why we say they are baking their belief into the text. Continuationists have plenty of Biblical evidence to show that these gifts are not on command.
@@michaelmiller5024 It's definitely a problem for Continuationits. Their interpretation of the gift of healing is different than the gift of healing describe in Scripture.
@@michaelmiller5024 Then how exactly would you differentiate between God healing someone and someone being healed by someone with the gift of healing?
@@maxmustermann1206 The difference would be God doing it sovereignly without any sort of human agency vs a gift of healing being employed through human agency.
@@maxmustermann1206 Maybe a gift is also a more regular thing. I have maybe 3 times been used in a more visible healing (damaged leg, sleep problems and some food allergies that disappeared) but mostly when I pray for sick people nothing happens. So I don´t consider it a gift in my case.
I had a good friend who often prayed for sicknesses when out evangelising and people got healed almost every time he prayed for them. I would think he has a gift of healing.
Sounds like you guys got early access to the documentary. Appreciate your guys' ministry!
It's been available for rent for 5 days now.
@@NumberOneBlackGuy I checked the website and it said 9/29 - thanks!
We watched it on Sunday and Monday and filmed on Tuesday.
Great video, really informative and full of scripture. I've been thinking a lot about the gifts recently as I've been unwell for a few years now with long covid. Would appreciate a word and prayer for healing. Bless you guys and this great channel
Both sides have arguments for either stance.
The question is where is the evidence for either?
Let's please see healing and bringing people back to life
@@bryankeithr16except the evidence point to prophecies being fulfilled, the dead have been raised, the sick are healed. Look at Dr Craig Keener’s book on miracles.
You would have to prove miracles don’t happen which is a failed point. The evidence points to the gifts continuing.
@@lindamohr8223 thank you and amen
I used to be a Cessationist up until these past 2 years. For years, I was taught and told by most people around me that miracles, prophecies, and togues weren't for today. Sometimes they would even say that some miracles could happen in third world countries but not in America. Which I was so confused about. I could never find the verse that supported that argument, but I assumed that my Pastors and spiritual leaders knew far more than me, so I just accepted is as truth.
I was actually heartbroken that miracles and prophecies weren't for today; or only for certain countries. However, I was getting more skeptical of the scriptural evidence for this theology. I think I even wondered or asked God why He doesn’t do works today.
Or I wondered where in this world could I experience the supernatural power and presence of God; not knowing that He was there, with me all along; willing and able to do things far exceeding my expectations.
Even now, God is still working to undo all the lies that are in my heart. But God has brought me so far, and I am so grateful! 🙏🙏
the character of God ,why would God remove gifts of the spirit that he gave to the church to further the gospel when the gospel still needs to be shared with the world
Thank you Remnant Radio for this!
Good content guys...Are you going to interact with actual clips of the documentary at some point? Thanks
We did...and we will...
AWESOME episode guys! I was raised by cessationist dad and as a methodist. As an adult, in a baptist church. As a child, I would tell my dad about my dreams, things that I saw and even when I sensed a presence (other than myself) in a room. I've loved the Lord since I was a young girl & would talk to Jesus often when I laid in bed. My dad ALWAYS told me that it was just my imagination, it was just a dream & that I was mistaken. So I've always felt like he never believed me. I was a child & didn't have the vocabulary to put to my experiences, nor did I have the word in me yet to test against. I'm in my 40's now and within the last 3 years have learned that everything was from God. Every dream from the Lord, I still remember in detail, every encounter with demons is etched in my senses & memory, and the 1 vision as a child I could never forget. I was VERRYYY young.
Instead of helping me understand, confusion & insecurity was put in me as a child. Tbh, is still there. Cessationist should connect more with Jesus and less with tradition.
Ps: this is just my childhood. ALOT more happened as an adult.🔥💯🙏
I'm looking forward to watching your series.
God bless all 3 of you!
Sis in Christ,
Nora Beth
Keep preaching and teaching the power of the Holy Spirit, with dreams, visions, prophesyings, healings, and miracles. You are called to the Holy of Holies. You will bring in the others, as if a valet for a great banquet, but you yourself will have no place to park. You must keep moving, and be free to move.
Sorry to hear you had a rough go at it.
Prophesy has to be correct otherwise it's false. We can't justify Prophesy when it doesn't come to pass. I do not believe in Calvanism but I have definitely experienced some weird and unbiblical experiences in a Bethel style church and after 17 yrs I finally left. When I left, miraculously I was healed. I won't go back to hyper charasmania. It was so harmful to me personally. Word of faith damaged me deeply. I've been doing the work to unravel the pain it caused in my life.
@@TheRemnantRadio Great message. Are you men using AI?
@@tristen7085 No, sister. There's problems but it goes like this:
1. Prophecy which is not prophecy is not prophecy
2. However prophecy is never 100 percent factual, literal, obvious, incontrovertible or guaranteed. It takes faith, wisdom, confirmation and obedience. "In the multitude of counselors there is safety."
3. Falsehood abounds, but nothing false is ever a prophecy. It's not even a teaching. It's error.
4. However, none of us being yet perfect, all of us are mired in many falsehoods.
5. Together, as a Church, in the power of the Holy Spirit, we can and will prevail.
Nevertheless, you go wherever and do whatever the Spirit guides you to do.
Anyone else who might be reading this, before you jump to doctrinal conclusions, know that Pentecost is a leavened feast.
G3 announced a Cessationist conference in the fall of 2024. So I don't think this topic of conversation will cease; it will definitely continue.
It won't cease while there are false prophets aka Charismatics are pollute the world with poor theology.
Hey guys can you recommend some good books on this topic.
Loved the video. I was just having this conversation today with a cessationist brother who is also a pastor.
This is not on cessationism persay. but it is on spirutal gifts. Hope this helps.
www.amazon.com/shop/theremnantradio/list/2VYGNJBQX24QK?ref_=aip_sf_list_spv_ofs_mixed_d
Hi, can you point to the source/link where we can watch the full cessationist documentary? I live in Indonesia, btw, so I cannot attend the conference in person.
I am and always have been a continuationist
But if the gifts are continued, then they should be exactly like they should be in Acts
What is meant in 2 Timothy 3:5. "Having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away."
The gyrations cessationists go through in the service of their pride never ceases to amaze.
I am not a cessasionist, but heard the gospel from a baptist pastor that brought me to the feet of God Almighty. Lets gove the cessasionist that, they still believe the gosspel is the power of God unto salvation. They have historically been faithful to share the gospel with door to door visiting.
Thats missing among the charismatics.
Praying for others to be healed is just in me to do now. Yet i do not see everyone healed. I have seen healing and i have seen His supply in miraculous ways.
Yet i am still looking to Him for my healing, i cant look anywhere but to Him.
While i have not seen that it yet, i know thisvis His will for me. So is complete union of my soul woth His Spirit. Thank God for His merciful, longsuffering love for me. As i know i am to love my enemies and certainly my neighbor if i love my God.
Great episode guys! Thanks for always handling your push back with love. But you push back. Keep it up!
It’s so interesting to me that I came to Christ in a Cessationist environment, in which I still am, I’ve heard the type of teachings and arguments that this ideas bring forth and I’ve always felt in the Spirit that the Bible does not support at all those arguments. The more I read the Bible, the more I believe that the gifts are still at work and maybe if they were used properly, in the guide of the Spirit, the church would be more unified and less divided. God does the work as always and builds up His church.
I’m thankful I found you guys. God bless you
Thank you!
This is really good. A big thank you for providing these resources. At the end of the day we believe gifts are for today because that is what God's word clearly states. For our cessationist brethren, that's should be sufficient. It is easy to trivialize the differences but any who have felt the coldness and resentment toward their desire to exercise the gifting God has given in a cessationist church will understand the seriousness of this error.
Do you guys agree with head coverings?
I wear a head covering because the 1 Corinth 11 appeals to creation order as well as it specifically says it’s for the angels. Can you please tell me your reading of that text?
I am so happy that you guys are looking at this subject. I get so frustrated with the cessationist conclusions about the gifts and those that are Charismatics, and believe that the gifts continue. All Charismatics are put in the same category as false teachers and prophets that abuse the gifts and have many other false beliefs. I find myself skipping over Justin Peters and other cessationists no matter the subject because I believe they are in error. In fact, they are ignorant of scripture and arrogant about their own doctrinal beliefs.
I love you guys! You help me sort the tough stuff!
Thank you
Great video and response. I love it. Do you guys read your Instagram messages? Or is there a way to reach you guys?
Do you all have any Church recommendations in the NYC area?
Michael's, closing thoughts were beautifully said!
Definitely looking forward to your guys take on the documentary.
Should be like eight episodes if I’m counting correctly
Top show. Thank you .
So very grateful to Remnant for the graceful unpacking of this dangerous argument from our Reformed and Calvinist brothers and sisters. I had never known the degree of squelching of the Holy Spirit until I was involved in a Reformed church plant. Literally, it was as if the Trinity had been rewritten where the Word replaced the Holy Ghost (we know that is a redundancy of Jesus but...) Some of the actions of Reformists have truly grieved my heart. It is no wonder that the Church is not more present and growing His Kingdom in New England when we are willfully ignoring and stamping out the supernatural work of God in the Holy Spirit. I'm praying that splintering and divisive actions cease in the Church (let us have debate, respect and ecumenical agreement and disagreement of tertiary matters of theology!). We have One Enemy and one goal - To win the lost souls of the Enemy's kingdom to God's Glorious Kingdom. It might look a little different flock to flock. God works in us as individuals in His Church and Kingdom, our salvation has been different for each but via one person, Jesus. Why would the actions of the Holy Spirit be any different - one Spirit, many gifts in many ways for His Glory! God Bless you, all at Remnant!
Come on guys you are listing all the things the Lord did, cessationist don’t deny that God still does miracles…the salvation of one person is miraculous.
I actually worked on this film as the art director. I really appreciated this video. I know I can speak for everyone involved that we absolutely do consider guys like you as brothers. We of course have serious disagreements ( hence the film) but I will absolutely talk with Les and David and see if they can reach out and talk at some point. I'll pass this video on to them.
Les knows about it. I told him ahead of time and tried to have a conversation. He's been willing to DM but not have a direct conversation and also stated he has no interest in coming on the podcast. He feels the documentary stands on its own. You may believe we are brothers but the documentary made that difficult to tell. When you have Justin Peters throwing out words casually like charlatan and not mentioning exactly who he is referring then parading faces of people that the makers of this documentary disagrees, what are people left to believe? The strong disagreements would have been worth dialoging about in an amicable way. If the makers believe we are brothers then I would love for them to appeal to us as such. It would be great to have that appeal public too.
They “tried to have a conversation..” I bet, are they afraid of the filmmakers or the truth
@@poewitxwhy do you grieve the Holy Spirit?
1 Corinthians 12
King James Version
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
I was raised "cessationist" Baptist - experiencing supernatural weird stuff (demonic presence for example, having crazy dreams, sleep paralysis) and finally Jesus saving me through an open vision. My relationship with Jesus is filled with supernatural power, faith and signs and wonders. PERSONAL experience in my own body and life AND with others after for example when I pray for them. NOBODY told me anything about stuff like that or explained it to me because THEY DID NOT BELIEVE in it when I grew up. I am now a "continuationist" pentecostal Charismatic, who believes in baptism of faith and the power of the written word of God. I am eternally greatful to God for saving me from religion and filling my life with his precious Spirit and every spiritual gift and fruit the Bible speaks of.
This is so good! I watched the documentary yesterday.
You show me proof of coherent tongues, healing that comes in an instant and prophecy from God that is true and I’ll reconsider. The office of apostle is closed and the gifts have ceased. God can and does heal but not in the way charismatics claim
Hi Josh, could we translate this video in Spanish? We are actually thinking of going over this topic with our Hispanic community.
Yes. In fact we've wanted to start putting this content out in other languages. Just not sure how to do that.
@@michaelmiller5024 Thank you Michael. We run an admin page with over 18K followers mainly from Central and South America. Cessationism is ruining like wild fire within our community. Your content is very good and we would love to translate live over this topic.
@@JMateoLucas interesting. Reach out to my church and I'll have them connect us. I'd like to know more. Reclamation Denver
In my experience as a Pentecostal pastor, it is FAR easier to lead a new convert into the baptism in the Holy Ghost than it is a person from another faith tradition.
I have had dreams, visions and even the spirit direct words and some action in me. Cessionists are putting to sleep the spirit in them or they never have prayed fir the gifts.
it may come ti some and not to others, but who am I to say that healing does mot exists if I can not heal
What is a biblicist? And in contrast to what other title you could call yourself? Thanks so much :)
A "biblicist" or "biblicism" is often used as a derogitory term. However, not always. When "biblicism" is used in a derogatory way, it typically implies criticism or disapproval of an overly literal, dogmatic, or inflexible interpretation and application of biblical teachings. In that clip I am wairing that title "biblicism" as a badge of honor, because I think the plain reading of the text makes more sence then the exegetical pretcel cessationist twist themselves into.
Blah blah blah. The problem with the church, is the pastors, preachers, priests and all their pharisee argument BS. Study the Bible WITH people and stop preaching AT people. So sick of the holier than thou word salad and arrogant 'doctrines and traditions.' @@TheRemnantRadio
I appreciate the show and the work you do. I am a cessationist. My pastor whom I highly regarded was not. He preached on this one Sunday. went up to him and shook his hand and told him, "I disagree, but good preaching anyways." He laughed at that. For me, tounges is an old english word that means language and have yet to encounter one person who spoke in their own language and The Holy Spirit miracuously caused others to hear in their own language. What passes for speaking in tongues today by no means is a structured language others can interpret from. If we say it is an unknown tongue, then why do we not see anyone else ever interpreting for the rest of us when spoken in public? These and others are what I start thinking about...and a lot mopre than just this. Thank you for letting me share. My wife is Pentecostal and so is most of her family. Obviouslyu, we all get along fine.
I absolutely love you guys and how u keep pressing in to the word. I may have missed it. I'm at the 30 min mark and you guys are talking about why there were no signs in the land of Israel in the old testament and you guys stated that is because of there sin. While this maybe true I didn't get a scripture confirming this and I would also point out the Corinthian church that Paul has to address both how to effectively operate in the gifts implying that the Lord was giving them gifts and they had received them and were in operation of them all while in the same book Paul has to rebuke some pretty bad sins that the church was also doing. Lmk know what you guys think. I honestly wish I had more time to study. But I'm thankful to God for Guys like you who keep working thru things and when it becomes clear from scripture you stand firm in love.
So thankful this has come out today, at a time I am looking into continuationism as my default has been cessationism due to basic arguments within the church.
Thanks guys. When did the thing we call "Christianity" become a religious system? Didn't it begin to happen after Constantine decriminalized Christianity. Then the masses of people of the Roman Empire became "Christian". Many people, without ever being born again, were now Christians because it was the religious system of the empire. Jesus brought the kingdom of God to the earth, gave it over to his disciples who spread across the empire in less than 100 years. Then man made it into a religion. From a kingdom to a religion in less than 400 years.
MacArthur, Peters, and most cessationists are part of the protestant reformed camp. What is that really? Martin Luther protested certain teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church which started the Protestant Reformation. Over the years many more people became involved in it starting many church denominations. In reality they just traded one religious system for another. Most churches today are all about the religion of Christianity. For the most part the church has abandoned the message and works of the kingdom, they don't even know what it is.
Jesus made it very clear. He taught about and demonstrated the kingdom of God before the cross and even more purposefully after the cross. We have the record in the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the dividing line. Those who receive that truth and have that experience are equipped with the revelation and power of the kingdom. We then can truly do the work of demonstrating and extending the kingdom of God in the earth. Jesus said Mt. 12:30 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters". What was the event that had just happened before Jesus said this? Mt. 12:22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. If the church isn't doing these things we're not gathering we're scattering.
Jesus also said Mt. 12:26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? Mt. 12:27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your
people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. Mt. 12:28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
We must bring on the kingdom of God. That's what Jesus commanded. Jn. 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. Jn. 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. Jn. 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it".
Mt. 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Mt. 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Mt. 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
If a person doesn't do what Jesus commanded are they really a disciple? Can you really call yourself Christian if your not an anointed one? Think about it!
Amen
Thankyou this is really good! The TRUTH.
Thank for your reply, please share with others.@@tammaree1889
Thank you.
I love that your atgumenta are feom scripture ❤ thank you. 🙏🙌🔥
Thank you for this! I definitely believe in the continuation of the gifts of all types. I've also been exposed to logic and argumentation. However I'm still not sure if I understand how Cessationist claims about gifts being a way to validate ministry constitute circular reasoning. Can someone explain it to me?
Thank you, Gentlemen 🌹⭐🌹⭐🌹⭐
Our Pleasure!
Isaac Saldivar says it correctly!! "That's why the charismatic movement is growing rapidly. People want to hear what God can do, not what God can't do."
God bless your families and ministry!❤🙏✝️
Yep!!! I've been around cessationism long enough to know a lot of them limit God . Life becomes about the Bible the Bible, the Bible...rather than the Bible AND a vibrant holy spirit filled relationship with gifts operating in our Christian walk. They're my dear brothers and sisters but they're blinded by Satan.
@@FriendlyEvangelist Exactly!! They don't even talk about the ministry of the Holy Spirit. That's why most are Luke warm. They've limited God. Imagine the world we live in that is in dire need of the power of God. We see an empty and lukewarm generation. No hunger for spiritual things. I pray we go back to the ancient path. God bless you ❤️🙏✝️
Another point against the cluster argument: their clusters just happen to be the periods where we have long narrative texts in scripture. The periods outside the clusters are just periods where we have less detailed narration in scripture. Shouldn’t be a surprise to find out you read less about miracles in periods that aren’t written about in detail.
💯% agree!!!
What are your thoughts on the testimonies of former Pentecostals in the documentary?
You must base your doctrines and faith on scripture and not your experience or someone else's experience. All supernatural experiences must be judged by scripture. And just a note - if someone's supernatural experience is that they never have any supernatural experiences - they should check that out in the Bible also. One place to check is Luke 16:19 - 31. The reason why many never see anything supernatural is explained in that story.
I haven’t finished this yet so maybe y’all talk about it later in the show…but something I found really difficult to reconcile a few years ago as a practical cessationist was WHY God still clearly performs signs and wonders in other parts of the world yet “not in America.” 😅 My whole tradition was willing to accept this “truth”! It seems like it requires a lot of cognitive dissonance or MORE reading into the text, in order to explain that one away.
If true miracles are happening-the dead being raised, speaking an earthly foreign language you never learned, healing the blind, growing limbs back, etc, there would be no issues. Just film them and put them on UA-cam. However, God does miracles whenever He chooses.
I think this assumes that cameras are always rolling in peoples lives and it also assumes you should be filming miracles in order to prove them. I mean sometimes you shouldn’t have cameras on in peoples faces in hopes you can catch a miracle. And sometimes people do film their services and all people say is that they’re fake. Filming isn’t the answer, leading people to the Word and the truth and to a personal relationship with God is the only way.
So you take cameras everywhere you go, right?? That's like an atheist way of saying if their criterias are not met, it means that doesn't exists.
I lead worship at a Baptist church, who is not actively participating in gifts , yet the senior pastor considers me a brother in Christ due to my core doctrinal views in Christianity. We dont agree as I am a continuist believer with speaking in tongues and prophecy, ect. Its awesome because we agree on everything else and he sees that I bare good fruit on the worship team. So im hoping more of this unity can happen in the church like it is in mine.
This is the way!! 👏👏👏👏
So would they (cessationists) discount Eusebius and all of the accounts of miracles among the church in the second and third centuries? The way martyrs were kept from pain or even death for a time as they were being tortured?
"I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes." --Joel 2:28-30
The day of the LORD has yet to come, which means that prophecy has yet to cease.
"I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” --Rev 11:3
I'm sure glad Moses and Elijah aren't cessationists! We couldn't have our two witnesses if they were.
Those who despise prophetic utterances quench the Holy Spirit, and that is incredibly dangerous because we are going to need all of the Holy Spirit we can get in the next few years, as the Day of the Lord approaches.
The Church the Body of Christ is not looking forward to The day of the Lord which is The Tribulation where there will be a darkening of the Sun and the Moon. We are not the Subject of Acts 2.
We are not appointed to wrath but looking forward to that blessed hope which is the appearing of the Lord Jesus to rapture the body to heaven (1 Corithians 15). We are looking forward to the Day of Christ which is different from the Day of the Lord which involves the nation of ISRAEL and called a time of Jacob's trouble. The day of Christ is not a day of Wrath but a day of reward for the Members of the Church the Body of Christ (1 Corithians 2.)
How odd it is to call Jesus
"That which is perfect" . The perfect is the complete revelation that was given to Paul by God. (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)
Paul wrote that he completed/fulfilled the Word of God.
Colossians 1:25-26 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
The gifts of Prophecy, word of knowledge and Tongues were partial in nature. They were revelatory gifts that brought new revelation to the Body of Christ in stages. Once the revelation was complete(perfect) this revelatory and partial gifts ceased
Gifts like Tongues were for the Nation of Israel to enable them preach the gospel of the kingdom into foreign nations during the Tribulation (Matthew 24:13). The prophets in the last days were to speak about the coming of the lord Jesus to establish his Kingdom here on earth .
It is after the Tribulation did not come due to God's mercy as Peter expected in Acts 2 and a Dispensation of grace was introduced through Paul that gifts like Tongues and Prophecy were given to the church the Body of Christ. When the Tribulation will be back, what was happening in Acts 2 to the Nation of Israel according to Joel's Prophecy will continue. Peter later understood through Paul's epistles that the Wrath he was expecting and preaching had been delayed and postponed due to God's Longsuffering (2 Peter 3)
The sign gifts were given to the Body of Christ in the Acts period as a sign to the Jews that God was setting their program aside and going to the Gentiles. God was using sign gifts to provoke Jews into Jealousy to get them saved through Paul's preaching for it is the Jew that requires a sign (1 Corithians 2). God had taught the Jews to look and ask for signs.
It is after God entirely gave up the Jews to their sins and sent Paul fully to the gentiles that the sign gifts like Tongues ceased.
Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
The failure of the Church today is to fail to realize that Paul was a special Apostle to the GENTILES. The Church made up of Jews and Gentiles who are one was a mystery hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:5). It didn't exist before Paul.
Jesus was a minister of the Circumcision during his earthly ministry who came to confirm the promises God made to the nation of ISRAEL (Romans 15:8). He came to bring the Kingdom of heaven here on earth as God had promised ISRAEL.
Christ put a distinction between gentiles and Jews during his earthly ministry. He commanded the 12 Apostles not to go into the way of the Gentiles (Matthew 10:8) but to the House of Israel ONLY. He said that he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24).
God's prophetic plan is to save and bless the gentiles through the Nation of Israel (Isaiah 60:1).
After Christ ministered to the Nation of Israel,he sent the 12 Apostles to preach First in Jerusalem, Judea ,then Samaria and then to the gentile nations(Acts 1:8).
We find Peter preaching to the Nation of Israel in Acts 2. Acts 2 on Pentecost is not the birth of the Church Body of Christ but they were the last days of the Prophetic program of Israel as Peter understood it.
The outpouring of the HolySpirit was a fulfillment of Joel's Prophecy and the next event according to Prophecy was the Tribulation . Peter quoted the Whole of Joel 2.
The nation of Israel rejected the Kingdom in the book of Acts. They stoned Stephen and they were about to enter into the Tribulation because Christ stood up on the right hand of God and that has a prophetic significance (Psalms,68).
God however in mercy stopped the Prophetic program of Israel. Postponed the coming of the Tribulation and the Kingdom they were waiting for.
God saved Saul in Acts 9 one of his Sworn enemies and commissioned him to preach a gospel message to the gentiles and Jews (Acts 9:15).
The commission to preach to the gentiles was taken from the 12 Apostles of Israel and given to Paul and they recognized this and had an agreement with Paul that they would limit their ministry to the already saved Jews while Paul would go to the unsaved gentiles and Jews (Acts 15, Galatians 2).
Paul was given was a new gospel message different from the 12 Apostles to preach by Jesus Christ to the gentiles. The gospel of his death , burial and resurrection (1 Corithians 15). Paul is clear that he received the gospel message through revelation and not taught by the 12 Apostles (Galatians 1).
The 12 Apostles were not Preaching the death and resurrection of Christ as a gospel message.
They were preaching the gospel of the Kingdom which involved repetance, Faith in Jesus as the Messiah/Son of God and water Baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) because the Kingdom of heaven was at hand. The Kingdom of heaven was a coming Kingdom here on earth.
We know for sure that the 12 Apostles were not Preaching the death and resurrection of Christ as a gospel message because they did not understand it when Jesus talked about his death during his earthly ministry. Peter tried to oppose the cross several times.
The cross in the Prophetic program of Israel was a necessary sacrifice to atone for the sins of the nation of Israel committed under the old covenant (Isaiah 53). It was something shameful and Christ is depicted as a suffering servant.
Peter even admonished the nation of Israel in Acts 2 to repent and be water baptized for crucifying the Messiah.
It is Paul who first Preached the cross as a glorious gospel message. The gospel of the cross did not involve water Baptism for Paul is clear Christ sent him not to water Baptize (1 Corithians 1:17).Paul water Baptized afew in his early years of his ministry but stopped on further revelation from the Lord to stop. He taught the one Baptism (Ephesians 4:5), the Baptism BY THE HOLYSPIRIT into the Body (1 Corithians 12:13) which happens at the moment of salvation when one believes the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). The Spirit identifies us with the death and resurrection of Christ where our old man of sin is reckoned dead (Romans 6:4).
The church the Body of Christ was a mystery hidden in God not revealed to the old testament PROPHETS or the 12 Apostles. It was first revealed to Paul. Thus we find our doctrine and pattern only in Paul's epistles (1 Timothy 1:18)
The Church the Body of Christ was a hidden plan God had for the heavenly places. He revealed his plan for the earth to the old testament prophets but kept secret his plan for the heavenly places until Paul. Thus in the Dispensation of the fulness of times,all things on earth and heaven will be gathered in Christ (Ephesians 1:10). The heavenly places being ruled by the Church the Body of Christ and the earth through the nation of Israel.
The Church the Body of Christ did not replace the Nation of Israel. After this mystery program is over through the rapture of the Body into heaven, God's prophetic program for the Nation of Israel will continue right where it was interrupted by the revelation of the mystery. The next event was supposed to be the tribulation (Acts 2)
Paul says that All ISRAEL shall be saved in the future of (Romans 11.)
God revealed other mysteries to Paul like the rapture of the Body (1 Corithians 15 ), salvation of the Gentiles through the blindness of Israel (Romans 11) etc....
Ephesians 3:1-6 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: to
my take is different. I do believe the miraculous gifts have ceased, but I believe what the charismatic experiences is real. I believe what occurs is situational miracles, which the cessationists are uncomfortable with, but rarely outright reject.
in my mind, a gift is something that is yours to be used freely, and we don't see folks using freely a gift of healing, or other miracle working.
what we do see is answered prayer for healing, we do see occasional visions, and prophacies and signs.
it's a far more reasonable view that nobody considers for some reason
Well, Annasajerk, I don't know if I can stomach that interpretation. I would say that Paul is known as one with the "gift of healing." However, at the beginning of his ministry, he had some kind of infirmity in his flesh (Galatians 4:13). At the end of his ministry, God used Paul to heal the Island of Malta in Acts 28. However, Paul did not send Timothy a handkerchief to heal him; instead, he instructed him to take some wine for his stomach. Also, Paul left Trophimus at Miletus sick (2 Timothy 4:20). It appears that Paul, who had the "gift of healing," was not able to exercise this gift on command. This is seen by the numberous examples of Paul healing, then not healing. I think it is easier to suggest that the gift of healing operated under the purview of God's sovereignty.
Also, a lot of ink has been spilled on the idea that 1 Cor 12 lists "gifts of healings." In Greek, both "gifts" and "healings" are plural, seeming to imply that there is more than one gift of healing.
That being said, I really do appreciate your willingness to acknowledge charismatic experiences, even if you do not necessarily agree with our categories. I honestly think most cessationists actually have your heart posture about these issues.
@@TheRemnantRadioI love your show so much, and I'm always sharing it with my friends. You are a breath of fresh air and a totally needed ministry!
I would like to differ respectfully with you on the idea of Paul having a physical infirmity.
Twice in the Old Testament the term Thorn In the Flesh or in the eyes is used to describe physical enemy tribes!
Paul defines it as a messenger of Satan sent to buffet him.
So I think he means actual enemies.
Messenger means angel and an angel of Satan would be a demon. He was always harassed and persecuted. I believe that a demon stirring up persecution was his thorn In the Flesh! Not any infirmity.
My friends don't have to agree.
Love the new intro!
Love you guys! Thank you for your humility, sincerity, and truth!
‘I Wish We'd All Been Ready.’
Life was filled with guns and war
And everyone got trampled on the floor
I wish we'd all been ready
Children died, the days grew cold
A piece of bread could buy a bag of gold
I wish we'd all been ready
There's no time to change your mind
The Son has come and you've been left behind
A man and wife asleep in bed
She hears a noise and turns her head
He's gone
I wish we'd all been ready
Two men walking up a hill
One disappears and one's left standing still
I wish we'd all been ready
There's no time to change your mind
The Son has come and you've been left behind
Life was filled with guns and war
And everyone got trampled on the floor
I wish we'd all been ready
Children died, the days grew cold
A piece of bread could buy a bag of gold
I wish we'd all been ready
There's no time to change your mind
How could you have been so blind?
The Father spoke, the demons dined
The Son has come and you've been left behind
You've been left behind
You've been left behind
You've been left behind
You've been left behind.
Larry Norman 1970.
Larry Norman - I Wish We'd All Been Ready ~ [Lyrics] - Bing video
This is one of the best channels on this platform.
Well SEE
Thank you for the encouragement
Appreciate this loving, biblical, and yet firm understanding of the gifts.
They have the “complete bible” and ignore some of it 😂
I really struggle with anger towards cessationist teachers. So arrogant and misleading... and like you said, dangerous.
I need to get over my offense with it but just all the joy and power that those false teachers are keeping people from breaks my heart.
I also struggle with much anger toward these false teachers and doctrines. People remain sick and oppressed because they don't know the truth of who they are in Christ when under the leadership of these people.
@@canonrebel626 do you suppose that was the issue with Bill Johnson's wife?
That she didn't really understand the truth of who she was in Christ even though she was under the leadership of her husband who claims the power to heal as Jesus did?
I struggle with that too. Some of them are so extremely arrogant, which is not of God!!
@@doulos9828hey did you know that continuists believe that God sits on His throne & is sovereign? *Most* fully concur that the Lord does not heal everyone, and whether that’s due to lack of faith (as it is sometimes because of that) or because that’s literally the person’s appointed day to die (which, for the believer, IS full and eternal healing), or for a plethora of other reasons, they know that not everyone is going to be healed how they expect to be.
I grew up in charismatic and Pentecostal church and have neve seen or experienced a real miracle except for when the church corporately prayed for a miracle. It never came through an individual. My brothers please, you need to have a live discussion with real cessationist teachers in order to set the record straight on this. In this video alone there are holes and I'm not even a teacher.
My grandfather was catatonic. A few days before he passed, he was sitting up and full of energy. Telling us about how Jesus met him and forgave him. He encouraged us to do the same.
My adopted grandmother passed in a state of non-acceptance. She visited me the night she passed. I was young. It was fully dark. The room temperature was about 50 in the summer in Florida according to my parents. I still remember who I called the “ice woman” 😢
All of this to say, I was never faced with the question of God or of His workings. My questions were of His Lordship and atonement. Only got this at around 20 years old
We have... Tom Shreiner who we quote on this episode has been on the podcast. Take a deeper dive into our content before assuming we haven't had conversations across the board. Also, many of the cessationists we have approached refuse to dialogue with us.
Don't use your "personal experience" alone as the yardstick, use Scripture. God never lies and if He said He would pour out His Spirit on us in the last days, why deny Him the glory?
The other thing to keep in mind is that the closure of the canon doesn’t have any bearing on the sudden irrelevance of signs and miracles. They would have to demonstrate that the canon is self-authenticating, which is what they are indirectly saying, but it is difficult to understand how exactly? How does the fact that the canon is closed and the message within a text lead to the self-authentication of the message?
Where can I watch that documentary?
I’m thankful to God for Remnant Radio. I call being a young charismatic believer when the Strange Fire conference happened. I take the Bible seriously, and I listened to it with open ears. If they were biblical and right I had to follow their argument.
I had a crisis of faith. I was starting to believe that 90% of my charismatic brothers and sisters were not even Christian’s. I was looking for resources but the only one responding was Dr. Brown.
I went to seminary and started seeing that the arguments of cessationism were moot. But now Remnant Radio is here helping people see how bad their arguments are.
Thank you David.
opposite happened to me
I was raised charismatic pentecostal and the passages brought up and my own reading is poking a lot of holes in charismatic teachings and practices
I am not writing them off but where are the biblical gifts? tongues are foreign lanugages and prophecy is always correct... these guys think tongues is something that's never mentioned in scripture(heavenly language, can't disprove them on that) and that prophecies can be wrong
then again they think that christians can have demons
having a form of Godliness(claiming to have the gifts) yet denying the power thereof (don't believe the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to keep people from demons)
My wife and I are honestly new to the faith having been born again (new heart) around the age of 30 for each of us. I am at this time probably more convinced some gifts were for the laying of the foundation if the church but I would describe myself as more cessationist "leaning" in case I have it all wrong.
Stuff like this is tough for me to work through so we do attend a cessationist church and just focus on the gospel. I enjoy hearing the dialogue and plan on checking out the movie /book.
When is the last time you have seen one of the gifts? Speaking in tongues, healing, raise the dead or prophesies?
They are well documented. The issue is Cessationists want to see it with their own eyes before believing it.
Ok show me those documents.
The gifts that the apostles had and performed were seen by the eyes of many people, that is also documented in scripture.
Why is it wrong for a cessationist to want to see it with their own eye?
Does anyone know why paul didnt heal the two brothers he was in contact with who were sick? I have heard of this as support for cessasionism
Because the Gifts of Healing never guarantee that everyone gets healed. In actuality it is the Holy Spirit that Always does the healing. In the same way why doesn't everyone get saved when an Evangelist preaches a sermon? Jesus did not do many miracles in one place because of their unbelief. Matthew 13:58
It isn’t explained so we probably shouldn’t build a doctrine off of it whatever the case may have been.
No continuationist today would argue that every gift, including healing, operates on command.
Every healing still has an element of the sovereignty of God. The problem with that particular argument Fabius Timothy needing wine rather than Paul sending his hanky to heal fails to acknowledge that in one of the last islands Paul visits he heals everyone! So what is it...? Is the gift waining or is the gift only operative in colaboring with Christ who has the final say?
Why would Paul tell the Corinthians about the gift of miracles, amongst a laundry list of gifts (including teaching, which cessationists believe is still for today), if it still wasn't available for them? "To another" the gift of miracles. What types of people are considered anothers. Apostles, known prophets only? Of course not.
I believe toungs, signs and wonders are still happening today, by brothers in Christ, a good number I have met personally also do believe and keep the teachings of the Bible, as the only Word of God. RCCR. Thanks. God bless your ministry.
Will do! thanks for the encuragment.
This was helpful.
Don't all of these same gifts occur in the oneness pentacostal churches? If a Trinity denying church is demonstrating the same gifts... Shouldn't that cause continuationist to take a pause and consider what exactly is it that is occurring?
Food for thought
I come and watch your channel to challenge my own beliefs, or to ensure I'm not stuck in an echo chamber. That being said this video only strengthened my cessationist view mostly because I don't believe you guys completely understand or are representing clearly the cessationist argument. I think yall are overlooking what this documentary and these clips are speaking to. The Charismatic church is the most dangerous place I've been in and I was a police officer for many years in one of the most dangerous cities in Texas. I have spent my entire life in churches that believe in the gifts and now that I've stepped away in the last few months I can clearly see all the spiritual abuse, self-righteousness, false teachings, heresy, witchcraft, and divination, that is consuming the charismatic theology. God is still God and He does what he pleases, I've seen real miracles happen, and I know my own conversion and salvation is a miracle in itself, but anyone who promotes that people can operate in spiritual gifts today is doing harm to the body. Teaching and leading people to claim to speak for God who is not speaking for God (taking the Lord's name in vain) is absolutely more dangerous than not earnestly desiring the gifts, especially prophecy.
How did we misrepresent? We showed their clips and then proved how they bake their conclusion into the premise.
Regarding the "name in vain" stuff we'll eventually get there in this series.
"Anyone who promotes that people can operate in spiritual gifts today is doing harm to the body?" By what standard? Ephesians 4 talks about how the body building itself up in love is through the proper working of each individual part. Wouldn't teaching the individual members of the body that they can't operate in the gifts stunt the growth of the body, thereby doing it harm? Or are we all just reduced to the gifts of volunteering, ushering, donating money, and bringing food to pot lucks now?
@@michaelmiller5024 Well one example in the cluster argument about periods of miracles Roundtree claims that the premise is the same as the conclusion which is incorrect. The premise of that timeline was that supernatural miracles/gifts are not a common occurrence throughout scripture. This was to contradict claims from charismatics that these "gifts" are happening as consistently as they claim they do today. The conclusion was the observation of three time periods in which supernatural gifts were heavily experienced, the last one ending with the apostles.
Your argument on the same clip was about the correlation of obedience and faith with the miraculous. If what you are saying is true (which I don't think it is) then I would argue that the rebellion and sin towards God today is extremely high and by your standard, there would be no miracles happening today.
@@connerdill9940 By the standard of scripture. Ephesians 4 is about unifying around the gift of grace through salvation in Christ. Twisting that to pertain to the supernatural sign gifts is an abuse of scripture to fit your own theology.