Shortugai: Harappans in Central Asia
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- Опубліковано 6 лип 2022
- In this presentation we explore the Harappan settlement of Shortugai, established around 2500/400 BC in the Oxus basin, examining the links between the greater Indus Valley Civilization and the Oxus-Jaxartes Civilization, which evolved into the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex.
References:
Notes on Shortugai: A Harappan Site in Northern Afghanistan by L. Dupree
How the twins met: Indus and Oxus Bronze Age Civilizations in Eastern Bactria by H.P. Francfort
The World of the Oxus Civilization-Routledge by Bertille Lyonnet and Nadezhda A. Dubova
Maps : J. McIntosh, P. Beaujard, National Geographic, Wikipedia and Geopoliticus.
Satellite Imagery : Google Earth.
#indusvalleycivilization #centralasia #mesopotamia
Rise of the Harappans ua-cam.com/video/Dj0Kn-J4OYo/v-deo.html
Ganges Valley Civilization: 9000-2000 BC
ua-cam.com/video/y3KJ9dzF4oU/v-deo.html
Complete lecture series : ua-cam.com/play/PL_CIYPw9fpy2WtyJBJF2BP-l1gPXAhxdL.html
Ok
all the dating hopefully will be Corrected.
crazy dating.
nuts insisting the planet is 6,000 yrs old, and then "shrink-to-fit"
these buildings Were Buried yet they look considerably older.
Please see also The Old Danube Civilisation [Prof.Harman Harald]...the Vinća Culture, the Lepenski-Vir Culture...see also Cucuteni-Trypilia Culture
This is amazing !! Love from Afghanistan. 🇦🇫The land of old civilisation so good to learn more about my ancestors.
I super enjoyed this presentation - I am learning a lot - thanks
I always suspected that the Harrappans were more widely settled but this really clarifies it all for me. THANK YOU.
It's interesting western scholars interpret that indo aryans are from oxus civilization with lot of oxus influence but knowing oxus itself got influenced from Harrapans is really interesting
@Alexios I Komnenos Indo Aryan Stablished there Kingdom on there name Gaandhar (Estren Afganistan)& Bahlik (Bulkh/Bacteria)in Vedic era ua-cam.com/video/4Fr6BW4bWkg/v-deo.html 👈👈
The Harappans did not influence Oxus civilization. They only were parallel and they had interfacing. We could say that they were emulating each other.
@@marysylvie2012 Not at all, of us was influenced by Harappans and it's already established, Harappans had colonies over oxus river and they're first trading partners of oxus people, even namste sign was used by oxus people after harappan influx
Their can still be counter claims on where indo-aryans originated. Their are various factors, i beleive deciphering the Harrapan language might solve a big chunk of puzzles.
@@Infiniteemptiness there's a seal from mesopotamia that shows a harrappan or meluha gesturing adaab to the mesopotamia king. Yesterday saw a harrappan figure of a bakra bearded man sitting in a namaz position with beads in hands. Harrappans had almond shaped eyes too.
According to you the harrappans taught Namaste to oxus & adaab to mesopotamians? 😂😂🤣🤣🤣
Happy to hear that since the end of the last ice age receding South Asians were migrating into Central Asia after 12,000 circa years back. Then it GIVES full meaning to the term INDO-EUROPEAN......
It had been happening even 5,000-3000 yrs before. Indian genetic remains in Aboriginal Australians, and Irish having their ancestry traced from Arabia and India. Even one of the greatest Indian Kings, Kanishka's grandfathers were Migrant Indians whose ancestors invaded into Central Asia stayed and ruled their but much returned back to the homeland due to atracks from Huns from modern day Xinjiang province of China, huns aggressive nature can be known by the fact that the Great Wall of China was specifically built to prevent Hun Invasions.
Ehm,.. that is not really what genetics seem to imply. I would suggest reading non Indian sources as well or at least serious academic articles.
@@chubbymoth5810 western sources are biased
@@tempt3857 ponds in temples aren't exclusively a south indian thing, and to begin with temple architecture is a bad prove of anything. Shiv temples haven't been their since eternity, as shivism itself has only been their for like 2500-2000 years. Before that different south indian tribes would have had animistic Religions and ancestor worship instead, before shivism took hold. If any group of people should claim the harrapan ancestory, it's the gujratis(a whole lot of material culture can be found, not to mention gujrat has a lot of late-harrapan and post-harrapan sites). Presence of iranian genes means nothing, as almost all mainland indians have it, be it south indian or north-indian. Steppe genes in North is very diluted, and even in the modern day iranians(who are known for their "aryaness") only have at most 20-25% steppe genes
@@tempt3857 So called Iranian Ruling dynasty Parthian Pre Rigvedic & Rigvedic Dynasty in Haryana after Dashrajnya battle they Stablished Them self in Iran. ua-cam.com/video/Xexi6JiRepk/v-deo.html 👈👈
Many Grateful Thanks for posting this interesting lecture. Truly commendable for it shows an interesting settlement of Harappans...much indebted for discussing the new and old ways of interpreting historical development.
Thank you!! Keep up the great work 🤗 i will watch the one you linked in pinned comment next!! I love the artifacts you pictured for us! I haven't seen them before 💕
Excellent lecture enriched with visual and written documents and new information. Many thanks. Could you make another lecture video about the Oxus , their relationship with Indus valley civilization and the relationship (if any) between The Elamites and Indus valley civilization ?
Thank you. There are in fact many strands of possible relationships, including the invention of writing. I will definitely devote a lecture or two to exploring them.
It’s great to hear about these ancient peoples
This series of videos carry a sponsorship by #AtlasVPN - please see a special discount offering subscription for a heavily discounted rate of $1.99/month for viewers of Geopoliticus here: get.atlasvpn.com/Geopoliticus
Excellent video.
See Indo-Europeans in the Indus Valley Civilization: Evidence & Conjectures
ua-cam.com/video/LDUwmAe9RA0/v-deo.html
Excellent series. Thank you for your series on the Harrapan/ Indus Valley Civilisation.
Metal, Lapis and of course Asfoetida were all part of the trade between the Central Asian outposts and Indus Valley. The Harrapans supplied important materials that traded spices, grain, cloth, timber and livestock from the Indus to the Central Asian Oxus civilisation.
The Harrapans were generally peaceful but there was a lot of influence of the Mesopotamians and related civilisations. There are signs that indicate that climate change and plate shifts (major earthquakes) lead to changes in River courses. This is a matter of some debate and requires further research. Site visits to Harrapa, Moenjadero, Mehrgarh, Fort Abbas, Derawar Fort all indicate the shifting course of the Indus and especially the drying up of the Saraswati impacted the Harrapan civilisation.
But this is a discussion for another time. The shift of the rivers and loss of water certainly lead to many of these communities moving.
Thank you, that was a very nice presentation (except for the ending which was a bit abrupt). Looks like I'm going to have to find some time to go through your backlog on this series.
Wonderful bro. Great work.
Thank you.
This is a great presentation. Indian people in Oxus is very Interesting.
Thank you.
how do you know they are indian? also who is indian?
@@berdigylychrejepbayev7503 Through DNA studies. That is a very easy method.
Harrapans / Saraswats / Bronze age Indians probably migrated to lot of regions. According to Akkadian rule records we can even figure out that Hrrapans had a lot of influence on Persian Tribal kingdoms, and that a war also happened between both powerful civilizations, not a direct territorial one but rather Harrapans or as the Sumerians described our ancestors as Meluhas had provided an allied support force against the Akkads to protect the tribal kingdoms in Persia.
I’m going to discuss the ‘war’ you are referring to in the next presentation.
Aside: I find it increasing likely that Egyptian civilization was founded by Tamil Hindus. Ignoring the physical/textual evidence of the sphinx (RAJA DIKSHITAR), religious similarity (KAZANAS), religious/caste markings, etc, that type of monumental building is only done by the Tamils in Bharata. The ties were not forgotten and they sought an infusion of Indic blood with the Mittani. Also, Greece seems to have been a bulkhead for the Hindus in ancient times, as well as a second holy land.
@@darkprince2490 omg 🤗
@@darkprince2490, I hope you're joking.
@@darkprince2490The Indians are so funny when it comes to the history. The only other people who are similarly funny are the Turks )))))
Have the reeds from the swamps in 'Moses and ten commandments ' identified to be native to a particular region ?
Doesn’t the findings at uttra Pradesh of copper weapons dating back to 2000bc change the narrative that the Indus people were not warlike? Also they found corpses as well, what were there haplogroup s?
True, but that is only for the Rakhigarhi people, which is also dubbed as of north harrapan culture that date backs to as old as 6,000 BC, we still don't find similar weapons or any properly developed war weapons in majority of harrapan sites, harrapans though were probably not peaceful(proper fortifications in major settlements) but also not super active in war(lack of proper weapons of war), so majority scholars still consider them pacifists. Rakhigarhi culture was a proper a warring culture that might have had conflicts with maybe eastern tribes in Ganga basin or maybe some other urban settlements yet to be properly unearthed.
This video supports the fact that the harappans had vacated the Indus valley by 1900bc and no longer inviolved their settlement at Shortugai around the same time
When is there first mention of change of dress code from grass/leaves to hide or cloth?
Evidence of cotton cultivation has been found at Mehrgarh , dating to 7-9 k years BP.
Interesting.
Sir please do an episode about Sinauli site at Haryana
Definitely.
When is gold first mentioned in indus, in text, in trade, associated with burial, associated with heirarchy?
Traces of raw gold have been gathered by humans for thousands of years. But large scale working began around 5k to 4k years BP after major advances in metallurgy, in Mesopotamia and India.
Why does it seem like the Indus valley civilization just vanished for no apparent reason in a very small time. Almost as if something just wiped their memory in a single day. Like those people just woke one day and had forgotten everything about their civilization. The Indus genes are found all over India-Pakistan but they have no historical recollection of the ancient civilization.
It might seem that way now, but as I’m going to discuss in upcoming presentations it wasn’t really so. There were many continuities and legacies, almost without a break, except in some regions.
So true. There are people/ caste/ tribes in India who claim they migrated from the to he area where the river Saraswati was.
The strange thing is that these people fid lose their memory like you said. I concur as humans do not forget how they built their cities, baths, drainage, streets that were in a grid patterns. There was no replication after Harapan and mjendaro disappeared.
Yet indians jump on the bandwagon saying that these civilizations were Indian (as in from india) where india never existed. Go figure !
Harrapans never completely vanished, their decline is just not well discussed, Harrapan culture migrates east wards to Ganga basin and evolves to contribute to the Vedic culture(irrespective weather the Indo-Aryans were outsiders or natives). They decline as the desertification of Sindhu-Saraswati valley occurs. Rebuilding the Civilization is also never easy as we think, the harrapan Civilization as whole took thousands of years to reach it's mature phase for what we know it for, from pit digging settlers to a robust urban society, and then nature just overpowers it and they are forced to migrate, for centuries, within which lot of knowledge is lost just for the sake of survival.
Aling perfectly with Uttar kuru and uttar madr mentioned in ring Veda and mahabharat
My view is that Tarim Basin is better candidate for Uttarakuru. I will discuss this in the future.
@@Geopoliticus sir you are Right UtterKuru &Khotan Tocharian same people ua-cam.com/video/1VFpyoGgbd0/v-deo.html 👈👈 According to Mahabharat data
@@Geopoliticus Bahlik (Bacteria/Bulkh),Gaandhar,khotan Kingdom origin & History in Rigveda,Itihasa -Purana,Ramayana-Mahabharatua-cam.com/video/4Fr6BW4bWkg/v-deo.html 👈👈
Very informative
@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 They migrated out of what was probably known as “Meluha” not “Vedic Bharat” which comes much later in Indian history.
@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 Subhita Devi, you could be right in that r1a is native to Bharat and later migrated outside of India. I am certainly no expert and you have done a lot of research and know more on this topic. I thank you for clarifying these facts to me.
@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 Certainly will check Raj Vedam on youtube. Thanks for the info.
@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 Yes. I watched Raj Vedam on Indian Civilization : The Untold Story. I also had seen one of his talks on excavations in South India maybe a few years back. He nicely lays out how Indian mathematics, astronomy, philosophy and science went out of India over the ages and has influenced most of the world but is sadly not acknowledged. When one looks at history at larger time scales like 15-20 thousand years or more it is very plausible that an out of India migration or migrations took place. People in various parts of Asia could well have descended from India itself.
@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 Will do.
Now we need to transcribe the Indus valley script. And learn the genetic configuration of these people.
The Indus Script does not contain long texts. So, I do not think that it will provide anything concerning genetic configuration.
Thank you for the video, very interesting. I wonder, any urban/agricultural society in Central Asia might abandon their settlement due to repeated raids from warrior nomads, perhaps. If barbarians killed my family and kidnapped the women I'd pick up and move pretty quick
That’s the choice most humans would make :) but in this case, there actually isn’t much evidence of violence. The ‘barbarians’ were technologically very ill equipped, and even rudimentary walls were an insurmountable barrier. Barbarian power only began to grow after intensive interaction and technology borrowing from settled societies.
@@Geopoliticus cool thanks for responding:)
There is an absolute lack of evidence for any type of warfare in the Harrapan culture. It seems that it was an egalitarian society with little conflict, which makes them really interesting.
@@chubbymoth5810 ya it is interesting. The Minoans of Crete also very interesting for this reason. Lots of depictions of joy and dance, priestesses and athletes jumping over bulls... but a conspicuous lack of weapons and warfare. Another undeciphered script too. Has anyone ever checked out the bizarre overlap in the Harrapan characters and the Rongo Rongo script of Rapa Nui, or Easter Island? It's cryptic, unlikely and hard to explain, but they have 40 or so of almost the exact same characters in their alphabets, which really makes no sense at all
So can we call it an out of India migration?
Maybe, but it was not a strong migration wave just a trading city.
The shortugai harapan settlement should not be surpring as Meluhans / harappan had wide spread trade links with many international destinations in central Asia
Mesopotàmia, Egypt and rest of the world so they would have material procurement centres and trade liason outposts etc. Remember this was an urbanised international manufacturing and trading Civilization, far ahead of its time. They could possibly not be confined to their immediate geography. One must look st this Civilization with humble respect and an elevated vision.
Can it be that the harrappans were service providers or slaves to the oxus civilizations?? Since history states that peasants & slaves lived outside the fortified cities & the harrappans were excellent in agriculture, metallurgy, masonry etc etc. Mesopotamia also had harrappan's quarters & were called as meluha or mlechchas. The term mlechchas is still used in India in rural areas for poor peasants & people doing menial jobs for livelihood.
Mleccha is used for foreigners though.
@@rishikeshp.5610 and the foreigners were looked down upon with suspicion too & every measure were taken to keep them aloof thereby preventing intermingling & to keep the impression of them being inferior & low.
@@towardstruth2125 Yes but the Mesopotamians would also be mlecchas just like how the Greeks were callled mlecchas.
The term maleshaa ملشه is still used in Afghanistan.
@@rishikeshp.5610 no, maleesha can be also referee to rebel, thieves, armed robbers in Afghanistan.
In Sumerian texts meluha is also assigned name for Nubia ie Sudan.
There has been some debate regarding this. The consensus view is that it was most likely the Indus Valley, and later, because similar products - such as gold and ivory - were derived from Africa, the word Meluhha was sometimes used. This confusion arose in the Assyrian period, for the Sumerians Meluhha was the Indus Valley.
@@Geopoliticus
Quite plausible just wanted to give you alternate view but you already are aware.
Regards.
Appears a Trading / Procurement post or pure excess demographic export.
No, it was a part of greater Bharata.
@@darkprince2490 That's to impose on prehistory the ideology of the past two or three centuries, when nation states began to develop. Those peaceful Harappans were not the crusading mosque-destroyers of modern India.
@@faithlesshound5621 you really need to decolonize yourself. Your secular anthropologist padre won't be able to help you with that.
@@darkprince2490 How did decolonisation make you a modern fundamentalist? If you go back to the bronze age, you won't find fundamentalism there, nor probably in the stone age. It's a misapprehension of people who have just learned to read, and take it all literally.
@@faithlesshound5621 harrapans were warriors though, their copper plated spears, swords, axes, trishuls, arrow heads and partial remains of decomposed bows and also copper plated horse chariots, atleast 4,500 yrs old were found. Not to mention the Rig vedic(the base scriptures of hindus) show geographical records of 8,000 yrs old(Discovery of Saraswati River which flowed parallel to Indus river). Also Varanasi one of the key Hindu holy sites being equally as old as Mohenjo daro, and wars(Dashrajanam war/battle of 10 kings) describing the out of India migrations. The same Riv Vedas mention the term Bharat which mentions the land south to the Himalayas and north to the Ocean as Bharat and people living here as Bharti.
It's Andronovo, not Androvno. You may have got everything in the video right, but when you did not get something fundamental and widely-known name right, it calls to question what else in your presentation you got wrong.
Ultimately it should be up to you to verify any facts presented in this video. I hope the research into it will be rewarding.
It's Andro-no-vo, not Androvno
This will definitely throw light on the Aryan migration to India is myth to some extent.
Maybe. Personally I do not know why people are so adamant about this alledged Aryan migration as if it were a huge disaster. Really, I do not understand. I also do not understand why an Aryan migration should be a disaster but an Indo-Aryan migration would be accepted, or an Indo-Iranian migration also should be accepted. As a linguist, I know that there was a migration because then, Sanskrit started to exist (and Prakrit, etc.) and it belongs to the Indo-European language family. So, as a linguist, I cannot say that it is a myth. I can only say that it is a fact. However, I want to point out that at that time, India was only what Pakistan is nowadays. There, and only there: around the Indus River: that was the real India. The subcontinent became "Indian" under the Mauryan emperors.
17:50 0th world war if you will..
Ha ha! Right.
Ordus is also the root of the word ‘Urdu’ (the language).
What does ordus mean ? Because in Dari or Farsi it means Army.
@@learnmore9485 In the Mongol/Turkic languages it means camp/barracks as I understand. Their opponents may have used it to refer to the Mongol army/hordes.
Ordus looks like Latin but it is not Latin. And that word "ordus" could never have given the word "hoard". Linguistics are a very systematic science, with phonetic laws which you cannot invent.
@@marysylvie2012 I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the meaning and etymology of ‘horde/hordes’ (noun). It’s not ‘hoards’ (verb).
Dr Viktor Sarianidi was convinced that he was looking at the remains used to prepare the Soma drink[> see Rig Veda]. Dr A.Mayor in her book The Amazons mentioned a Persian source referring to the Sakas as Soma drinkers[Persian> Haoma-Varga]. Dr Frits Staal in Discovering the Vedas wrote that the Vedic block was split by a migration of a population who later on were Zoroastrians.
Ordus cannot have given the word hoard. Domus is Latin for house. The presentation was good but in the end, vocabulary and linguistics are weak.
Ordus is a Mongolian word.
Aryan came from Iran and Russia he was trained in warfare but Dravida was Peace loving and nature caring that's why Dravida was pushed to south india from north India by Aryan invaded. Dravida is real native of India and Aryan is foreigners. Dravida is the all sc, st, Tribes castes of today's. Who was called as untouchables in hindu caste system. Aryan came from outside and burnt Dravida history as Tamils scriptures and now history was wrong, truth is Tamil people are Dravidian Tamil language makes proof of it.
Tamil language is the mother language of All language.
Indus valley civilization is of Dravidian later captured by Aryan.
AIT theory has been debunked long back. We're talking about an incident that possibly happened in Neolithic age (New Stone Age). Migration of people from one civilization to another was pretty common back then and it happened all over the world. So treating a group of people asF0reign orNative on the basis of some possibility from such antiquity is unfortunate andPetty in itself.
The AIT theory has long been rejected. We're talking about an incident that possibly happened in Neolithic age (New Stone Age). Migration of people from one civilization to another was pretty common back then and it happened all over the world. So treating a group of people asF0reign orNative on the basis of some possibility from such antiquity is unfortunate andPetty in itself.
So the AIT theory is long dead.
@@kasturipillay6626 Oh really? Researchers from both Stanford and Harvard universities have rejected it long back due to absence of evidence.
There is no longer any further studies done regarding AIT.
There's tons of information have been long rejected!
No further studies are being done on AIT.
Again those theories that you're talking about happen to be mere speculation. There is no direct evidence!
I guess you were there 5000 yrs before to know how tall were people back then and what was the tone of their eyes and hair?
I guess you also believe that Veerappan or Prabhakaran were also peaceful, short and polite?
So there is a good side and a badSide in every society. So please stop playing innocent!
BTW are you sure that Brahmins were not dark and short?
Are you sure you haven't seen any of them?
People dispersed out of Indus valley due to earth quake followed by drought!
Please Get your facts right.
Oh really? Researchers from both Stanford and Harvard universities have rejected it long back due to absence of evidence.
There is no longer any further studies done regarding AIT.
There's tons of information have been long rejected!
No further studies are being done on AIT.
Again those theories that you're talking about happen to be mere speculation. There is no direct evidence!
I guess you were there 5000 yrs before to know how tall were people back then and what was the color of their eyes and hair?