Cops Should have Stuck with Revolvers?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 лют 2023
- Optics Planet Discount Code: HRFUNK (5% off your purchase)
HOP Munitions Discount Code: HRFUNK10 (10% off your purchase)
For T-Shirt info, contact: Warbirdbunker.com
Join this channel to get access to exclusive members only content:
/ @hrfunk - Розваги
Interesting topic. I am a retired police officer. 36 years in a very large US city. I started my career in 1973. We were required to purchase our own duty *revolvers* from a list of approved revolvers. Basically this amounted to any S&W or Colt .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolver with a barrel at least 4" long and not longer than 6". Later, Ruger revolvers were added to the list of approved handguns. I chose a Colt Trooper MKIII and later added a S&W Model 28. We had to qualify with any handgun we carried, on or off duty. Off duty guns were pretty much unlimited. Except by the lack of suitable off duty guns at the time. Nothing like the choices we have today.
Starting in 1986, officers were *allowed* to carry 9mm semi-auto handguns, again purchased themselves, from an approved list of handguns. Which list included Glock, SIG, S&W, Beretta and others. From 1986 until the end of 1991 new officers could choose a revolver or a semi-auto. Beginning at the end of 1991 (December, as I recall) new officers could ONLY choose a semi-auto. Anyone hired before then could continue to carry a revolver if they chose. Some officers did, well into the 2000s. I retired in 2009 and a few officers still carried revolvers. Very few.
In 1988 I chose to purchase and qualify with a Beretta Model 92FS. A DA/SA, hammer fired, semi-auto. In 1990 I went to plainclothes duty and chose a SIG P228 and S&W 6904 as a backup. Also DA/SA hammer fired. I had purchased both to test them thoroughly and went with the SIG as my primary carry gun but kept the S&W.
I stayed with a DA/SA handgun throughout my career.
I was well served with a revolver and never remember wishing I had 15 rounds of ammo instead of 6.
Should they have stayed with revolvers? I am not sure, but they SHOULD HAVE stayed with DA/SA or DAO hammer fired handguns. I think striker fired semi-autos are the worst thing that ever happened to police officers.
Now retired, I still carry a handgun every day, as I have every day for 50 years, and I will not attach a handgun to my body, or put one in my pocket, that is not a DA/SA or DAO hammer fired handgun, UNLESS it is an SA hammer fired semi-auto (1911 or Browning High Power)
The bellyaching about "trigger pulls" and resets and all the rest of that nonsense about features that have absolutely -0- value for close range personal self defense is laughable. Most people do not realize that. I do. Most of the do-dads and gee-gaws are meant for ONE thing...to separate you from your $$$. NONE will do anything for you within 3 feet, 3 shots and less than 3 seconds...which is how personal self defense handguns are used.
Most people do not realize there is a HUGE difference between the purpose and use of a police officer's duty handgun and a personal self defense handgun.
Whether a revolver "looks" more respectable, I do not know. But I can tell you that police officers looked more respectable in previous decades, and not just because of their handguns. We were required to dress respectably. We wore ties (clip ons), police officer hats, not ball caps you wear to mow the lawn, striped pants, button down shirts. We didn't look like we were on a combat mission with the Special Forces. We carried our handgun, handcuffs, extra rounds and a radio the size and weight of a brick on our belts. Maybe a nightstick ring. Nothing else. I think tasers and pepper spray have replaced common sense and the ability to de-escalate. When our choices were deadly force OR clever negotiation, there were less officer involved shootings. Period.
I think the manner of dress of "modern" police officers does not command respect, I think it commands intimidation. How has that worked out?
Anyway, that's a rant for another day, Howard.
Agreed there is something to be said for spit shined leather, starched uniforms, concealed body armor and bearing.
Good post Gary. I'm not a fan of Cops having to buy their own firearm. In my town the are issued one once. After that they're on their own. The wifey and I make it a point to pick up the tab when we become aware of a Cop buying anything at the LGS the go to. Our way of saying thank you.
Agreed 100%
You bring up some good points Howard as someone that was there. I agree with the dress code, these guys nowadays look like Military more than Police with even most departments using military vehicles for extreme situations. Most Police I see nowadays are respectful yet the media fans the flames especially if race is involved, very few people understand the crap coos see every single day that would horrify most people, nor are they capable of understanding that the media ONLY wants to paint cops in a bad light. The media has taught people to be disrespectful and combative towards cops as a result of their nonstop negative reporting just to make a buck off sensationalism.
Spot on gary k, wise words loaded with years of experience.
Funny story .. I used to drive limousines in NYC back in the 1980s.. I used to hang out at a diner on Astoria boulevard in Queens NY just outside of LaGuardia waiting for my flights.. there was an NYPD officer I used to talk to all the time.. the other cops nicknamed him "3 GUN TOMMY".. used to carry a six shot 4-in barrel duty gun on his belt... A 3-in barrel six shot 38 hanging just below his duty gun on a leather strap dangler... And a 38 snub in his pocket! (I believe it was a five shot Chief special) that gives new meaning to the saying. "New York reload" 🤣
Sounds like a smart man
He's well prepared. Regardless of ammunition capacity it is all about shot placement
Back in the 90’s, I was in a bad part of Chicago and I saw a Chicago cop carrying 2 stacked duty revolvers on his belt. That image is burned in my mind.
I also was a cop during this time period. I also became a CSI and worked many civilian and officer involve shootings. I firmly believe that when it comes to a civilian/police shootout accuracy trumps volume. When we carried revolvers our agency made sure accuracy (Being able to hit the X ring inside the ten ring) was the first priority. As a result our officers seldom emptied their revolvers during a shooting. We had quarterly qualifications and every officer was allowed 150 rounds a month for practice. Every agency should make accuracy at various distances their first concern. I've worked cases where one shot ended the fight and other cases where over 60 rounds were fired with only one hit to the bad guy. I've seen cases where officers emptied their mags into their own vehicle doors or vehicle hoods. Other cases where officers fired as their pistols were being drawn and brought up to bare on the bad guy walking round towards him in the dirt only to be empty when the pistol finally came to bare on it's target. spraying rounds and praying you hit the attacker is a very real problem with officers carrying high capacity semi automatic pistols. But I am not against semi automatics. I am against agencies skimping on training. A police academy must be given the funds and time needed to properly train officers.
"I firmly believe that when it comes to a civilian/police shootout accuracy trumps volume."
I've never been LEO/Mil, never been paid to use a firearm, but I agree 100% and give a double thumbs up to this.
I said something upthread about a golf analogy. Ever meet a great QB who didn't practice his passing and general throwing? Who wasn't always trying to improve his accuracy, always testing different trajectories for different scenarios? Or if you love basketball, look for interviews where people ask Michael Jordan how much he practiced. Or if you like alpine skiing, same for US Olympian Ted Ligety.
I noticed that you never mentioned that you were ever involved in a shootout.
Theory doesn't often match reality.
Theoretically, shot placement does matter, UNTIL your life is being threatened and you're at a disadvantage [or numerous disavantages], shot placement takes a back seat to you keeping safe.
Conditions and circumstances outweigh shooting paper targets on the range.
Those who can, do, while those who can't teach [preach].
@@stans5270 But how do shots that don’t hit anything keep you safe?
Our career and experiences have a lot of parallels. Did 31 years starting in 1978 using S&W M10 heavy barrel. I was already a fairly experienced revolver being mostly self taught. But the older guys on the PPC comp team honed my skill with lots of great mentorship. We switched to Glocks in 1991 which I was totally against. This is no pride or bragging that I had utmost confidence in my skill with revolvers. All it takes is LOTS of practice and in most cases a good coach. I took survival seriously and fired about 20,000 .38 Spec every year(my own $$). I could reload faster than 99% Glock equipped officers. Practice, practice practice practice.
What I find disturbing is constantly seeing "mag dumps" with very little effect on videos. This is something skilled revolver officers predicted from the starting blocks. We never had AD or ND with revolvers, can't say that about Glocks. I always said the Glock held 17 rds because you planned on missing a lot, and not been proven wrong.
Give me a S&W 19/66 or 586/686 4" with 110 or 125 traditional HP in .357 Mag and I'm totally content and at ease to handle 2 or 4 legged threats. As a result of the work and my own money, I did get 2 trophies in 2 years at the NRA Police Natl Championship shoot.
I hear priority was learning to shoot center mass quickly without actually aiming. Just what I heard.
I am a retired Texas Peace Officer with 30 years of service. I worked in one of the largest departments in the Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex. During my career I was involved in 2 major shootings. I started my career carrying a S&W Model 28 revolver. I used this weapon in both encounters. I never emptied my weapon and I always knew how many rounds I had fired. I noticed from when I started marksmanship was primary. Later as the transition to semi-auto came in a false confidence was taught and a "spray and pray" mindset was more of what I saw happening. I had young officer ask me why I carried that old revolver after all they had 15 rounds and I only had 6? My reply was, "I don't care if you have 1,500 rounds if you're laying flat of your back taking your last breath. It doesn't matter". You have to get on target and neutralize the threat as quickly as possible. I hoped they would learn from my perspective and would be better officers. During qualifications, each year I qualified Expert and never was beat during timed shoots. It never failed that some officers semi-auto would not fire during qualifications. That always effected me towards having far greater confidence in my weapon than a semi auto. When I retired, I was still carrying the same S&W Model 28 I started with and always will carry a revolver.
I carry a S&W 686-4 just because of the simplicity of functionality.
As far as the stress of situations are concerned. It would be less stressful if Patrol Officers are with partners they trust. That’s a discussion to reconsider as many Officers don’t want partners to keep each other “safer” and calmer…
Good grief, you sound like me. Worked in the DFW metroplex area for a big city as well. The 4" M28 was my weapon too. Glad to see we both walked away from shootings and made retirement. Stay safe brother.
My Respects to both of you. My Dad was HPD for 25 years even though he carried a Military 1911 45 . I was never law enforcement but I am former US Army . I agree that a revolver works better or is better than a semi auto in most cases . I did security work for Afew years the last place was a motel where I carried my single action Colt 45 and one night I had to use it on some drug addict that that was trying to rob the office. I still carry my Colt at times and my wife carries a d/a stub nose 357 magnum where we live now.
Check out “Kevin Costlow” on UA-cam
@@jamesshackelford6721 good luck to your wife. I have a customized Ruger SP101, .357, 3" brl. With .38spl or .38+p...piece of cake; with .357 loads...horrible. Training with even a 3" 101 stainless, that .357 load is absolutely brutal on my hand (5'11" 200lbs, 55-yr old). I'll never fire those from that piece again. I've got a 6" Python for that.
One thing is for certain: Revolvers will not jam when discharging it from under your covers whereas an auto-loader will jam every time. Thank you Paul H.
Revolvers can jam. If they do you'll need to take it to a gunsmith and can't fix it in the field.
@@bertrandlewis4906 Yes they can. But I don't sleep with a damaged weapon. Semi-auto's eject for the next round to cycle into battery. If that ejection is impaired then there is no "next round."
Third generation peace officer here. Hit the bricks in 1979 witha 4" S&W Mod 28 357Mag. Three shootings during my career. Three deceased and one crippled. And did take two aggravated robbery suspects armed with 9mm's at 25ft before either got off a shot. All shooting involved a single 357Mag shot. Don't tell me that revolvers are obsolete. When forced to carry a 9mm autoloader, I felt nearly unarmed. Officer involved shootings went from one or two rounds fired from 357's, to many doing full mag dumps in the suspects. Retired a couple years after that, and got rid of that 9mm.
Don't like plastic guns. Tried a few, but traded 'em for real guns. The only autoloader I have is a 1911A1 in 45ACP. It rests among a group of single action and double action revolvers in my safe. Yes, I carried a 1911A1 in Vietnam, and it performed well.
I believe that the trend toward autoloaders in law enforcement was a well planned marketing ploy by Glock, and other manufacturers to make more money from cheaper to produce plastic guns. It's all about money these days.
I concur, these plastic guns could break if accidentally dropped on pavement. I carry a S&W 686-4 just because of the simplicity of functionality.
As far as the stress of situations are concerned. It would be less stressful if Patrol Officers are with partners they trust. That’s a discussion to reconsider as many Officers don’t want partners to keep each other “safer” and calmer…
I went on the job in '73 with a .38 Spl S&W Model 10 with the bull barrel. I loved it. It was simple. Pick it up and squeeze the trigger. I was happy when we went to +P hollow points because I felt that I was finally adequately armed. Being issued speed loaders was also a big plus, but it was a stopgap measure until we re-armed. In '90, we transitioned to the 9mm S&W Model 5946 double action only. (I would've preferred a .357 mag, but the politicians squaked that they were too powerful for urban use). The stated purpose of the DAO feature was to prevent accidental discharges and to lawyer-proof our weapons. I liked that pistol also because of ammo capacity, since most of the bad guys had 9mm semi-autos with hi-cap magazines, so we had to match that. To me, that was the ONLY benefit, since at the time, there were officers who were killed because when they emptied their 6-guns, the bad guys simply advanced on them, firing all the time, until they were able to shoot the officer as he was reloading. The semi-autos were a bit more complicated, as they had to be stripped in order to clean them, and on my job, many officers neglected to properly maintain their weapons ( or practice with them on their own time). In my own opinion, while the 9mm pistols were OK, I was perfectly happy with my Model 10 with the hollow point rounds and the speed loaders (I carried 4 of them plus 18 extra rounds in belt loops, but most officers had only 2 speed loaders plus 6 in the gun)). When you have 18 rounds, you need to learn fire discipline and only fire if you have a target. It's not a case of if he fires, you return fire shot for shot, because you will run dry and he winn still have 12 rounds. He will run towards you, siring all the time to keep you down and when he reaches you, he'll still have 3 or 4 rounds, and you can just guess where those rounds will be going.
Thanks for Your Service. From a Army Veteran.
I have never been in law enforcement, but I carry every day and have been for 20 years. I carried revolvers for the first 15 years of that. I think the mindset people have now is the real problem. I take classes a couple of times a year. One thing you hear a lot of people talk about is how many rounds they can get down range in a hurry. You are responsible for every round that leaves the barrel. That does not sound the way you should be thinking. When you carry a revolver, you know to shoot enough to get the job done and no more.
Yes, I hear similar talk. But accuracy is what counts. Range training is necessary, for accuracy, familiarity with your weapon, etc, because it is different when someone is shooting back.
Agreed sir!
When attackers/criminals can be high as kites, can be big as houses, can be armed to the teeth and can be wearing easily acquired body armor, it can take a mag dump, or MULTIPLE mag dumps to stop the threat. UA-cam is FULL of shooting breakdowns where the officer put 10 shots in an attacker, only for that baddie to get up kill the officer, or a passing civilian.
As a Canadian ex military serviceman I was taught "one shot, one kill," but the reality is that there are no guarantees. LEOs should be carrying as much gun as they can handle, and as much ammo as they're allowed. Mag dump. End the threat.
@@basildraws The problem I've seen with "the guy was so stoned it took 2 mags to stop him", is most of those shots fired either missed or struck a body part that doesn't react to pain, lie a thigh muscle or "Love Handles". Also there is never going to be a 9mm load that will equal the tried and true .357 Mag with tried/true 110gr or 125gr HP. Yes 9mm loads have come a LONG way since 1990, but they find it hard to mimic the .357 Mag.
When my dept switched to Glock 17s in 1991, the subsonic 147gr HP was the fairy tale "stopper load". Well, it was a semi-load of bull biowaste. We came close to losing 2 good officers because the "en vogue" load was beyond pathetic. I had spoke out against the subsonic as it was 180 opposite of my hunting experience with slow non expanding bullets.
But I was ignored and the range sgt who sold the chief on the awesome subsonic, was suddenly transferred then retired after dramatic failures. Shortly after the 147 hole pokers the dept did gel block testing. The 147 never expabnded, barely quivered the block. This lack of expansion and only drilling a small hole was the same as field failures.
The 40 S&W with 165gr Gold Dots was dramatic. It wasnt' long we dumped the 9mm. I have to say the Glock 17 was a great target pistol once I overcame the "New York trigger".
@@LuvBorderCollies
1) Cool name and Avatar. Our fam has always had borders (as well as border/keplie and border/anatoli). Just the best.
2) I disagree with the assertion that a thigh muscle doesn't feel pain. That's just false.
3) if 9mm isn't your cup of tea, there's 10mm, there's 40S&@, there's 44 and it's cousins, and of course the Lord's caliber: 45ACP. And since the gen4 glocks come in double-stack 45ACP, there's just no trade-off or downside.
Again, as I said before, I'm not relegating revolvers to the trash heap of history. They absolutely do have a purpose. All I'm saying is that in today's setting, pistols are, by and large, the better tool for the job in most situations for LEOs.
And just to backtrack for a second, as for misses, well that speaks to training, which I 100% agree most agencies neglect. Here in Canada we're fighting a new gun control bill, C-21, which seeks to ban handguns. Which will kill 80% of our shooting ranges, which our LEOs depend on for training, which will result in the crippling of our law enforcement agencies. It's an issue very close to my heart and being an old fart I'm not hopeful we can win it.
Anyhoo, this is a great discussion and thanks for participating. You make good points for sure. It's a shame that 357 is too much spice for most pistol platforms. There are one or two 357 pistols, but from what I can tell they're not highly regarded.
I carried the Smith and Wesson model 686 .357 mag in the 80’s when I patrolled the border. We were heavily outgunned by the cartels and smugglers. The switch to semi autos was the best thing to ever happen to Law Enforcement.
you needed rifles
I was issued a S&W 686 in 1991 as a beat cop in large inner city. A couple of years later we were given the choice of "upgrading" to the 92F. Many of us chose to keep our wheel guns. The reason most of us kept our 686s was that it was such a good weapon for beating people when you had to. Civilians don't understand that most bad guys do not give you time to re-holster your weapon when they decide they want to fight. The weight and ergonomics of the 686 made it a perfect "club" for pistol-whipping. For those that frown on pistol whipping i pose this question, "Would you rather that a cop beats a person that is resisting, or do like most of the "police" do today and mag dump them?" We could have had a good-shoot almost every week if we had the mentality of today's "police". We were trained to use our bodies as weapons to subdue the threat. Firing our weapon was always the very last resort, even with armed suspects. We would not fire until they pointed a gun in our direction and even then, in reality, we gave them a chance to seal their fate by popping off a round. Police today, in general, are not confident in their physical abilities and out of fear mag-dump. Training needs to go back to the way it was in the 90s and take away their autos and give them wheel guns. You will see accuracy go way up and less trigger happy idiots. For situations where needed they can always pull out their ARs.
LOL 🤣 that training issue is a whole can of worms that I don't think most could handle debating in our 'modern politically correct ' world, let's just say to your point that the mag dumps probably come more from 'equality' in Police departments more so than any other reason. BTW: I own a 586 and it is a nice revolver, but honestly if I was a cop nowadays, I'd want a Glock 22 or even a Glock 21 - I believe that whole 9mm selling point goes back to the equality thing .
In truth it was drugs especially the PCP craze in the 90s, that changed us from "controlled pair, search and assess, reengage if needed" to "shoot 'em down".
"A chance to seal their fate"?
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
All of that being said, I carried a revolver on duty with confidence, all the way to 2015.
I think you are spot-on about using a pistol as a club, ugly as it sounds. I worry about "equity" cops who are 5-foot 4-inches tall and often fat. They don't have many options. Will mace really work fast enough on a windy night? Can they swing a baton hard enough to do the job? They usually have to fall back on shooting the perp. Now you have a dead person, and a cop on admin. leave. He/she will have to live with the memory of that shooting for the rest of his or her life. Not good. --Old Guy
I carry a semi-auto now but want a revolver, but I want a 3" not a snubbie because it's a better weapon, better to shoot with, makes a better club than a snubbie.
They had to lower their standards in order to accommodate women. There was a time when departments had boxing, judo, or other hand to hand competitions in addition to marksmanship contests. This is now politically incorrect which has led to cops cowering behind their "Wonder nines"
I always remember when a retired officer who was a friend of mine referred to my Ruger service six as a "simple six". He meant it as a compliment.
Love my Service Six
@Guapo Returns
A true beast of a sidearm. My dad carried one as a rural Colorado deputy in the mid-eighties. We didn't know each other then, but reconnected in around 2000. When he died in 2010, that revolver came home with me, along with his other gun, a Charter Arms Undercover made the same year in which I was born.
@@Just1American1966 At least you eventually got to connect with him , hope it was positive. Yeah the Service six is about bomb proof.. can’t say the same for my junky CA Bulldog. I was manufactured in 66 as well🙂
This is an example of why I like your videos and watch them. You don’t treat your viewers like idiots and explore more cerebral topics beyond reviews of the latest hardware. I’m a student of history and this type of discussion is right up my alley. Do more on similar topics.
Thanks Neil! I like to throw these in now and then when I come up with what I think is a compelling topic.
@@hrfunk You did a great job here. You know -- maybe Mrs Funk has told you this before, but you would make a very good expert witness in a firearms matter. I think you'd be strong under cross examination and very persuasive under direct. I'd use you.
@@seanoneil277 Thanks Sean. Testifying is easy. You just tell the truth.
@@hrfunk 👍 I sure wish all witnesses followed that path!
@@seanoneil277 That’s one of the more challenging things to teach young officers. “Just answer the questions truthfully. It’s not your job to prove the case. That’s the prosecutor’s job.”
The advantages of the revolver are, you can use 38 P+ or a mid range or full power 357 magnum load, you will have a more radical hollow point, you can use a shot shell on snakes and you can crack the bad guy over the head with it. You have to be able to draw fast, hit your target and keep a cool head under fire, if you don't practice enough then you are at a disadvantage. When the Safariland speed loader came out for the revolver it gave the officers a needed advantage.
I joined the NYCPD in Oct '64 and I was offered a choice of either a Colt of a S&W Model 10 in .38 Special. I carried that Smith for 20 years and it saved my butt at least 3 times in gunfights and was quite useful in smacking people alongside the head to correct unruly behaviour. I never had to fire more than 2 shots as I never did miss my targets.
Upon retiring i '84 I dabbled jobs requiring me to be armed. In one police job in New Mexico I was issued a Smith 5904 semi in 9 mm. I did not like that gun. I carried a Model 10 snubby in a shoulder holster as my backup but I used it as my primary weapon when needed. In Nevada I worked as an armed guard and ran around in armored trucks hauling insane amounts of currency and I carried a Smith 586 6" revolver. For another gig I carried a Ruger P 90 in .45 ACP.
Now having retired I usually carry a CA Bulldog Pug .44 Special loaded with Hornady critical defense 185 gr hp ammo which moves out at 1085 fps. Having carried both revolvers and semi autos for over 50 years I still am a revolver guy.
Even with all the modern ammo available today in 9 MM I still believe that a .44 caliber slug moving along at 900 to 1100 fps of 185 to 240 gr bullet weight will do more damage than a .355 caliber of 115 gr at 1150 fps. To me the extra capacity of ammo is a moot point as very few gunfights require more than two shots.
I use both revolver and semi-auto, I prefer the revolver because of its simplicity and its longer range accuracy.
I attended the Los Angeles Sheriffs Academy in 1989 and was issued the model 15. I later carried the model 66 before being issued a Beretta 92F. The model 49 was my off duty firearm. BTW, I had an incident similar to your friend but was carrying a Beretta 92F. NIght time foot patrol in a gang neighborhood and encountered 5 gang members with one armed with a shotgun breaking into a car. Feared getting bum rushed if I shot the suspect with the shotgun. Wasn't sure I could get hits on all the bad guys given how close we all were. Employed some useful dialogue until the cavalry could arrive.
A lot of bad areas back then. My Cop pals were L.A.P.D. 77th Division and Pacific got pretty ugly.
Good job! I'm glad that all worked out well for you!
@@ElainesDomain It was nuts. I worked out with a guy from Shootin Newton. His nights were unbelievable.
@@BirdDogey1 what area did you work?
@@ElainesDomain Multiple locations but tended to stick to the Southern part of the county except for the time I did working in the jail. I later lateraled to an agency in OC.
Nice video Chief. I began my career in Los Angeles in 1984. We were issued revolvers and we were out gunned right from the start. These were the days of rock cocaine and all the gang wars involving sales and territory. The need for a service weapon that held more than 6 rounds was real, I don't recall anyone complaining when they had to turn in their revolvers. Semper Fi from an old 5831 "Brig Rat"!
Semper Fi!
Hi Howard- great topic! I started my LEO career in 1987 and I am still in law enforcement (but now I am in an executive level role). When I started I carried a S&W Model 10 38 Spl. I carried that until 1996 when my agency converted to a generally issued 9mm semi auto pistol. I have carried a variety of semi autos since that time and right now I carry a Glock 45 in 9mm. For the record and to be transparent …. I am still a “revolver guy” in my recreational shooting. That said, my observations are that today, I don’t think a revolver would significantly disadvantage any peace officer in a normal defensive situation. Revolvers still offer a viable option and in fact in civilian carry I note there seems to be a resurgence in the use of small revolvers. Not trying to offend, but personally I feel that officers that carried revolvers were better shots, because you had to be. To be fair, I also think back in the era of revolvers we trained to be more accurate. My agency had a 50yard stage in the qualifications but after transition to the 9mm that was dropped and all the shots were done under 25 yards. Like you, there are some operating environments I would not want to “go back” to a revolver with and that would be the tactical environment. In that world, ammo capacity and ease of malfunction clearing is likely more important, but that didn’t stop the GIGN who famously used a Manurhin revolver in their special operations. All this to say, would I carry a revolver (again) in a general duty uniform role, sure I would! Would I give up my Glock, or my Sig 226 or Smith 5946 to carry my ole model 10 (it was already 30 years old when I was issued it in the late 80’s by the way) … nope. But not cause it wouldn’t work, more because all the others worked really well too! Hell … maybe I would carry both 🤔. Cheers!
Well said!
During the few years that I was in law enforcement, I carried a revolver. I felt extremely well trained and had no desire to carry anything else. Ironically, it was later as a civilian, when fishing and hiking in remote areas that I felt more comfortable with a semi-auto and the increased ammo capacity it offered. Another very interesting topic that’s well presented.
Thank you Luther!
Mr. HR, when I started in law enforcement in 1971, our duty issue was the Smith & Wesson Model 10-5, with a 4-inch tapered barrel, blue steel finish, and excellent fixed sights. Many of our officers opted to purchase their own .357 revolver, perfectly okay then as long as you got qualified with it. The criteria for private purchase duty carry was these few choices; S&W Combat Magnum, S&W Model 13, S&W Models 27, 28 the Colt Python, Colt Trooper MK III, Colt Lawman MK III and Ruger Security-Six all with 4-inch barrel lengths in blue or nickel finish. Stainless wasn't here yet. Mr. HR, the rules of the game was different in 1971. Later, about 1974, our PD went to the stainless S&W Model 66, with a 4-inch barrel, and a 2 3/4" barrel model for investigators and plain clothes officers. From that time (1974) our Department, as a whole, shot the best-ever using those Model 66 Revolvers, going up to the pistol transition in 1992. The new standard issue was the S&W Model 4586, a 45acp pistol that was DAO, supposedly the semi-auto designed for transition from wheelgun to pistol. Those first several years were "train wrecks" at Qualification Time. We had more failures, more reshoots, lowest ever recorded pistol scores, shooting those first semi-automatics. For myself, and several other old timers, we opted to stay with our revolvers. We were grand-fathered in, thank goodness, and from 1992 on to retirement I would pack a blue steel 4"barrel Colt Official Police .38 Service Revolver (ser.# 869943). The pistol scores did improve with the troopers using the semi-automatic pistol (S&W M&P 9mm), but "NEVER" to the level of the 1970's to 1980's time period when we shot the Model 66. Here in 2023, my Colt.38, and myself are retired thank goodness, Qualification Day is coming up, and gone are the days of looking forward to that day to shoot for the state! A dark cloud of dread hovers over many agencies now because of the difficulty many cops have shooting the semi-auto. Most of these people have never shot a revolver and consider it terribly old fashion and out of date. Not enough rounds they holler, while they spray and pray, NEVER coming to the understanding that each round they fire they are accountable for it. I still stand by the 4"service revolver .38/.357 with a couple of speed loaders, will still perform, and perform well, in trained hands. Spray & Pray, I hear of officers involved in shootings, emptying a couple of magazines with no success, and still squawking about needing more firepower. Liability in this day and time is a sad factor of life for law enforcement. Precise, accurate fire, will still carry the day in most deadly police officer shootings of bad guys. I carried my Colt for many years, qualified with same for many years, and competed in revolver friendly combat matches against the Glock toters. More times than not, I would out shoot my counterparts by a substantial margin, using an old fashion blue steel Colt Official Police .38 Revolver. Not that I was a super ace on the pistol range, just a very "practiced" old cop handling his trusty revolver that was his closest partner for several decades. Thank you Mr. HR for this video! Been waiting a long time for one of this nature to appear. Semi-auto is "NOT" always the best selection for routine patrol duty. I know, and know from the experience, and the school, of very hard knocks!
I think your on to something at 10:22 👍 People make better decisions knowing they have limited resources .
Thank you for your comparison between revolvers and semiautomatic pistols. Your discussion parallels my situation during the Vietnam war in 1965. We patrolled close offshore and boarded suspect vessels; sampans, junks and other craft. I chose to carry a Colt Trooper .357 magnum revolver with a 6" barrel while a shipmate picked up a Colt Gold Cup 1911.
This was at a time when duty handguns were WWII vintage 1911s. Both handguns served us well.
Thanks for your service!
Good morning HR. Very interesting topic. My first center fire handgun was a 4" Model 19. They were really hard to find because of police demand. Then came the switch to the wonder nines. Part of the reason was encounters with well armed groups like the SLA, Weather Underground, and Black Panthers. I am curious about one more advantage for revolvers. I wonder if the number of accidental discharges has gone up with the use of semiautomatics? I don't recall too many officers shooting themselves while reholstering a revolver.
I began in 81 when the department was 100 percent revolvers like you mentioned. Starting in 85 we were allowed to carry semi-autos off duty(after going through the semi-auto class). I think the bosses wanted to see if anyone would shoot themselves in the foot or do something equally stupid. In 88 we were finally allowed to carry on duty. The department I was with required deputies to purchase their own handgun for duty use. We were able to choose from a fairly long list of DA/SA or striker fired 9mm or 45acp guns. I purchased a S&W 5906, in part because of the commonly with the 469 I had been carrying off duty and because I had planned to carry the 469 as my back-up gun. I was used to the DA/SA trigger pull and never found it to be a problem. There were a couple of situations where I thought I was going to have to shoot and was taking up slack in the trigger and the hammer was starting to come back, the situation changed quickly and I realized I didn't need to shoot. I'm still no sure that if I'd been carrying a Glock I might have sent a round downrange. I own several Glocks and shoot them well but I like that little extra safety margin that the first shot DA trigger pull on the Gen 3 S&W's gives.
I started in 1979 and carried a revolver until 1985.
This video was one of your best. I don’t think we will ever know the answer to this question but it real interesting to discuss.
Thank you Ron!
I like a revolver. I often pocket carry a J frame. My wife and I keep a model 10 in the night stand for a house gun. Having said that, my main ccw is a stainless steel 1911 carried in an iwb leather holster. Never really feel under armed in any instance. I should add that I’m an old guy, if that’s not apparent already.
There’s a reason you lived long enough to be “an old guy.” Thanks for watching.
I have two duty belts: one set up for my Glock 19, another for my Ruger Security 6 (former Army, now do Armed Security to get me out of the house). Depending on the location/assignment/inherent risk is how I choose which one I will use. Though, I will say, I turn a lot of heads when using the wheelgun.
The legendary Jim Cirillo didn't seem to be handicapped by using revolvers, LOL
Or US Border Patrolman Bill Jordan and Charles Askins.
It's not just high capacity, it's also ease and speed of reloading. I did carry a snubby .357 but it was a backup to my primary. There is one thing though I do remember from my early days on the West side of Chicago. There was a "Fear" (for lack of a better word) of the "Old guys with the wheel guns" on the street. Maybe it was just the mindset of the "Older guys" or maybe there was something in their earlier training but it was there and it was a real thing.
They probably feared the old guys because they came from an age where marksmanship was heavily emphasized. What matters in a gun fight is who can land the 1st hit to the vitals rather than who can fire the most rounds generally speaking and those old guys could probably shoot the hat off of a man's head a 30 yards with their magnums.
Good discussion. I am a civilian and have both. When I carry a revolver, I generally carry a couple of speed loaders in my pocket. Generally I think bad guys will flee at the first sign of armed resistance so for me the capacity issue is not a problem. I also have a Smith and Wesson 8 shot model 627. With moon clipped rounds you can load quickly, though it is too bulky for concealed carry. I do have a daughter who is a police officer and she packs a Glock and she told me she shoots better with a revolver. She will never carry one on duty. The goal is to hit the target and if a guy can hit the target consistently with a weapon that fits him, then let him carry what works.
I started with 9mm semi-autos and now ended up preferring .357 Magnum revolvers. Consistent accuracy and knowing that I fired heavier and faster projectiles that generally tougher against common barriers were the factors considered, even using cheaper brand revolver.
I have been mulling over going back to the 357 magnum as a primary carry for that same reason. I find the revolver to be simpler to use and more accurate at defensive range. I also have much more confidence in the stopping power of the 357 over 9mm . It's a fight stopper for both 2 and 4 legged threats.
@@TheCosmicGuy0111, scarcity of aftermarket parts for the M&P 2.0 10mm and other 10mm pistols to make these reliable in our country 🇵🇭 made such option not doable.
I started my law enforcement career in 1997 and the first weapon I was issued was a Beretta 96F in .40S&W. In 2001, we transitioned to the Glock family, also in .40 and I remember a range session where I shot with our Deputy Chief. The Chief had brought his Smith and Wesson Model 19 and he asked me if I wanted to shoot it. Now up until that point, all of my handgun experience had been with semi-automatic handguns. The first handgun I privately purchased was a Glock 23 so the only long-term frame of reference that I had regarding shooting experiences was with a semi-auto handgun chambered in .40. The Chief loaded the 19 with .38 wadcutters. I have no idea who manufactured them, what their grain was, nothing, but when I squeezed the trigger, I was stunned at how smooth and soft shooting the Model 19 was. After a few cylinders of the wadcutters, I fired three cylinders of 125 grain .357 magnum SJHP. I remember coming away thinking that this handgun was the greatest handgun I had ever fired. Yes, the recoil was something, but I remember the ergonomics and more importantly, I remember the trigger. It was the most incredible trigger I had ever felt. I asked him if I could carry it on duty, he laughed, told me no because it had been his duty weapon and that I need to go back to my Glock. I would be lying if I said I never looked at my Glock the same way after firing that Model 19.
Ha, ha! There’s magic in those wheelies!
Great reflection. I'm a retired Naval Officer and observed these kinds of decision making processes in the federal gvt. for 20 years. Group think and fads play a significant role in these kinds of decisions. It is interesting to reflect on this particular decision with the wisdom of hindsight to distinguish the substantive issues from the fads.
My go to handgun (until recently) was a 1911, but the most accurate handgun I ever own, was a 6" S&W Mdl 10 modified for PPC.
Something about a fixed barrel lends itself for long range accuracy.
During the 1980s I was a "Special Deputy" (carrying a S&W Mdl 66) in a very sparsely populated County in Arizona. I learned very quickly to use my interpersonal skills to defuse hot situations.
One thing also about a double action revolver, it is very quick & easy to bring into action from the holster.
And yet due to the long DA trigger pull, you might be able to hold fire, as opposed to a striker fire pistol where you might be committed to deadly force.
Re: your comment at 9:43 from a retired LEO: "Back-in-the-day" carrying my issued S&W Mod 10, I responded to 'domestic disturbance' call. As I pulled up and getting out of my car I was charged by a knife-wielder. I drew and was about to fire at him DA when he abruptly stopped his charge and threw the knife down. My hammer was a 'milli-ounce' of pull from release but I was able to ease off the trigger and return it to battery, thus preventing a shooting. When my dept. subsequently replaced our wheelguns with Glocks, I can say with certainty that if I had been so armed at the time of that incident my trigger pull would have been more than sufficient to have fired the pistol. One life (not to mention a LOT of ensuing hassle) saved!!!
I’m glad that worked out the way it did.
This video made me think. Here are my notes as I reflected on the points of this presentation.
Revolvers:
Well known.
Simple in concept.
Simple to operate.
Ammo variety.
Can be used with one hand.
Many do not have a safety or switch to lock/unlock the hammer.
Requires more training.
Deliberate trigger press for DA.
SA is a nice feature for an easier trigger pull.
Some people say revolvers are very ergonomic for the hand.
I found a DA/SA easier to hit the target as it didn't have a slide. That's just me.
Usually had good sights. Some are adjustable. Some are not adjustable. It depends.
Proven. It works in many situations.
Malfunction? It can happen. That's why you have another one.
Easy to check if loaded or not.
Semi-auto:
Very popular. Abundantly available in FFL stores. Go to a gun show and see how many more semi's are offered vs revolvers.
May even be cheaper than a quality revolver.
Lots of makes and models. Some have hammers, striker fired etc.
Ammo capacity holds more than 6-8 for centerfire cartridges.
Has ammo variety with +p and +p+ and different bullet heads. Many people like hollow points.
Known to jam only a question of when that will happen. Universal methods to clear. Tap, rack, bang is popular. Backup?
Takes training to know how to operate the specific model with the safety or switch to lock/unlock the hammer. Not an issue for some models.
I notice people fire it as fast as possible. Accuracy?
Lots of after market parts. People like to customize. Reasons?
Different grip than a revolver.
Many have good sights or sights that can be changed.
Proven. Used in the military, police, and other situations of self defense.
Is it still loaded? Remove the magazine and pull back the slide to eject that round. People forget.
I had the choice of choosing a quality revolver or semi so I tried both. I shot the revolver a lot better.
I had to take a safety course and show proficiency, and accuracy. I was the best shot compared to the semi auto users. One person in the indoor range to my right actually loaded the ammo backwards in the magazine. My revolver didn't have that problem.
I appreciate the pro and cons of revolvers vs semi autos. I went on the NYPD in 1985 and retired in 2015. I carried a S&W Model 10 as my service weapon until I transitioned to a Glock 19 in 1992. The NYPD was heavily anti semi auto pistol until we lost an officer in 1986. P.O. Scott Gadell (RIP brother), was involved in a shooting in the Far Rockaway section of Queens. His assailant was armed with a semi auto pistol, and he fired on officer Gadell. P.O. Gadell returned fire and expended all six rounds in his cylinder. His assailant counted the six rounds and rushed P.O. Gadell while he was trying to reload, during which time the gunman executed P.O. Gadell at almost point-blank range. In an attempt to address this tragedy, the initial response by the department was to issue speed loaders to all officers. The problems we encountered with speed loaders caused more trouble than they were worth.
Another great video! I would just add a couple other advantages to revolvers versus semi-autos: 1.) when a double action is fired in single action mode, much greater accuracy and precision can be achieved due to the lighter trigger, and striker fired designs in semi-autos typically require a higher trigger pull pressure to maintain reliability, and 2.) for a similar size and weight category of a handgun, revolvers are generally available in a more powerful chambering, which yields greater performance against barriers, etc. For personal defense, I don't see these factors being particularly relevant, but I'd say in law enforcement applications, they would be factors worthy of consideration.
I prefer carrying a revolver and had a Monarch Shoulder Holster made by Andrews Leather out of Florida. For my model 329PD and four speed loader tube leather holsters on the opposite side. And I pocket carry a J-frame revolver as a backup.
I think Jeff Cooper said it...."Your only outgunned if you missed"
Excellent video! Your presentations are always clear, logical, succinct and respectful. I wish more people approached communication in that way!
Thank you!
The old timers who carried wheel guns back in the day carried 2 and referred to it as the New York reload.
I do not think the transition from revolver to semiauto pistols was a mistake, but I will say that I think that the transition from the double action - single action to the "Glock Style safety trigger" was a mistake. I am a believer that often times that the Glock dingus trigger gets officers in shootings that should not happen. I think there are times that the officer is put in a situation that His or Her perceived threat level is elevated unnecessarily and it causes many unintentional discharges. The old double to single action always gave a buffer of tension on the trigger to prevent unintentional discharges. Many times officers are saying that the weapon just went off. With a double action the shot is mostly intentional not accidental. But we all know that once the gun goes off, you are committed to your situation.
WHAT are you talking about the Glock is a Double action striker fire and has 3 passive safeties, has a stock 5.5 lb trigger pull single action has a 1 lb trigger pull where startle effect or sympathetic response can result in a NEGLIGENT discharge meaning you had your finger on the trigger when you should not have. This is why a LOT of other manufactures and Police have gone to that, Glock and Safety trigger.
@@johnhalpin5204 some of you Glock Fan Boys will never be convinced. You guys got caught up in the models, promotions and the fame. I get it. But it does not change the fact that a full double action like on a Beretta 92 is much safer than a Glock in yellow to red situations. At some point the booger hook is going to the trigger and that is when bad reflexes take over.
@@paladin4779 lol
@@johnhalpin5204 Where do you find anything with a trigger pull weight of "1 lbs "? Due to Glock's passive safety features there is phenomenon of "Glock Leg". Modern rigid retention holsters maybe contributive to "Glockitis".
@@1820kj Seriously many have cloned the Glock trigger safety it's not the Gun which is why a majority of Police have gone to it, it a problem with training inadequate and insufficient. Never had an ND trained 20's thousand of Police , Military and Civilians and never had 1 ND, it's proper training issue and. I've actually heard of and seen more ND from other firearms. Safety and proper training is a must or maybe they should have a firearm. I have friends with Competition CZ's that have 1 lb trigger pulls maybe 1.2 or 1.3 so yes there are firearms out there with l 1-5 pounds: most single-action revolvers and semiautomatic weapons, some hunting rifles, most target rifles, some shotguns
5-8 pounds: some other hunting rifles, some shotguns, many striker-fired semiautomatic weapons
Over 8 pounds: double-action semiautomatic weapons and revolvers
In addition to coming on in the “late revolver period,” my dad was a cop in the Midwest with a revolver department. I learned how to shoot with S&W revolvers. I listened to stories of other cops who carried semi autos as an option. There were basically two categories of semi auto shooters - the minority who really knew how to run 1911s, and the majority with new winder nines who didn’t. Of course there was no transition training afforded to that department or probably a lot of others during that period. I formally trained on a 686 at the US Border Patrol Academy, but when I learned the BP allowed for Agents to carry certain semi autos, I transitions to a Glock as soon as I could. The irony was that the authorized semi autos were easier to conceal than a K or L frame, Ruger, or Colt that were also authorized and sometimes issued. Five shots or .38 Special was no longer authorized and a G17 or 19 was easier to carry off duty. I also had a blue steel Model 19 complete with an action job and grips like on yours that I carried for a little while. I found a speed loader case that held three and mounted that on my belt so I went on duty each day with 24 rounds plus maybe another six in a speed strip in my pocket once in a while. I know now that I would have been smart to at least kept a six loop on my belt. Fortunately never needed that much ammo except at the range. At an area police action pistol match, I watched an Agent on the pistol team with a Model 66 draw, fire accurately, and reload with speed loaders faster than most of the LE competitors, including me were reloading their semis. I went onto become a firearms instructor with another agency that had gone away from wheel guns much earlier. I can summarize that whether one is carrying a wheelie or a self loader, how they run the gun is based on how much they put into it. Most malfunctions, at least with reliable designs, are always operator induced. Anyone who neglects to train or maintain their pistol will have it neglect to work for them at some point or another. And yeah, I’ve seen Smiths & Rugers at quarterly ranges come out of the holster packed with organic debris such as leaves and small branches indicating the gun never left the holster after the last time the operator used it to qualify - hung the gun belt up in the locker after each shift. Its not the gun but the person packing it who is responsible for its use or function. But at least with a revolver, the poorly aimed rounds traveling down range are fewer.
What was your class number?
70’s & 80’s my dept carried about half .38 or .357 revolvers and half 9 mm pistols. Almost exclusively Smith & Wesson. We had to supply our own firearms & bulletproof vests. For liability issues we switched to dept supplied handguns and ammo and vests.
I went to the Police Academy in 1987 and I qualified with a S&W 586 .357. I loved that weapon and I was an accurate shooter with it. However, I decided to transition to a S&W 5903 .9mm. The reason was ammunition capacity and ease of re-loading. The difference in accuracy was negligible and not sufficient to not to transition to a semiautomatic.
Such a great topic. I’m a retired corrections officer. Negotiations played a big part in my career since I was always unarmed while working the blocks. When I started in corrections we were trained with 38 caliber revolvers. My personal edc was a S&W model 36 chief’s special.That was the only gun I carried for 35 years and still have it. I will say this in regards to the topic of this discussion. I now own several handguns , both semi auto and revolvers. And after 40 years of collecting and shooting semi automatic handguns and revolvers , I’ve had more than a few jams with autos but to this day I have never had a malfunction of any kind with a revolver .
Very good presentation HR. With many state qualifications, the standard was lowered to 70%, and marksmanship seemed to be relaxed when they switched to semi autos. I feel that, the revolver is a good choice, as you mentioned many advantages of it. I think a lot of the mentality centered around “well, now we’re evenly matched with the bad guys “. I think the Miami-Dade incident was a wake up call to everyone that tactics and training needed to change. Have a great safe weekend Sir.
You too Tod. Thanks for watching!
It all come down to TRAINING and proper training, I don't know of a Police Dept that has a 80% qual. however states do have a 70% CCW, CWP etc qual.
Speaking of evenly matched, it was always my philosophy never to get involved in a gun fight where I was evenly matched. I wantedl the advantage in my favor or I avoided initiating contact.
Excellent video ,thank you for your Military and Law enforcement service🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
The honor was all mine.
My first duty revolver in 1981 was a S&W model 19 blue finish. Later our department in or about 1984 went to the Sig Sauer P226 9mm. I believe back then we were well ahead of most police departments even though we had about 7 officers. 16 rounds sure beats having only 6 in your duty handgun.
My first four duty guns were revolvers. When we finally went to SAs in 2000 a group of us were brought to the range to evaluate several Semi's. After shooting everything we filled out surveys.
I believe it was just going through the motions. The powers that be had already become enamored with the Glock.
Going into that test session I had a bias against Sigs mostly because I didn't like the feel of the grips.
One of the pistols we tested was a DAO SIG. Imagine My shock and confusion when I shot the best qual score of my life with the thing. Basically one big hole center mass with no flyers.
Everyone else was adamant to get away from the DAO triggers as was I but this changed my mind. That was the smoothest trigger I'd ever felt with no clicks or stacking.
Of course we ended up in the Glocks. The power of marketing prevailed. They're OK but I've never been that happy with them.
I carry an M11-A1 for personal protection and love it.
I believe everyone should own and train with a revolver. It will make you a better SA shooter.
My big issue with the newer officer presence is the beards. I think clean shaven is the way to go. It separates one from the pack. Especially if you have to flip tin off duty. More believable.
Maybe I'm just an old cranky guy but I don't want to look like the guy who lives in the Kroger parking lot unless I actually am that guy.
Regardless of what I’m wearing, my wife tells me it looks like a uniform. I tell her if I’m wearing it, it is a uniform.
Regarding the visual of a revolver: When I was 4-5 years old, mom was pulled over by a motorcycle cop. I was in the back seat. When he came to mom's window, all I focused on was the (likely) 357 on his hip. The pistol seemed massive to my young eyes! I asked him, "are you going to shoot us?" He calmly replied "No." Mom was very embarrassed. He let her go with a warning. I'm sure he probably smiled as he went back to his motorcycle.
If Mom got a warning from a Motor officer your comment must have really tickled him OR Mom was a real looker with a low cut blouse, only two possibilities conceivable.
As a registered old guy, the shortest way I can sum up my thoughts on the subject would be: That era was the beginning of "Management" "The brass" or in my world, "White-shirts" searching for a hardware solution to a software problem. :)
To take it a step further, we have so many hardware solutions to software problems, that our poor members more closely resemble battle-droids, that are about as mobile as a refrigerator than "peace officers."
To be excruciatingly long-winded-- To fault lies not with our front-line officers. You get the tools the boss buys. But critically, you only get the training the boss pays for.
It's amazing what well-trained officers, with a Mustache, a Model 10, and a sunny disposition could do. :)
Very good video! A lot of thought was put into this one. I liked the thought of preventing a shoot out because of only six rounds in the wheel gun. Thanks!
My first issued duty gun was a model 66 in 1985. My first semi-auto was issued to me in 1989. I was an avid revolver shooter since the late 1970s so I had no issues with the wheel gun. However the capacity advantage of the semi-auto is hard to ignore. In addition, we had less maintenance issues with semi-autos than we ever did with revolvers, especially K frames with magnums.
Watching this video I realized I own equal revolver and semiautomatic handguns. They both have their places, great video👍👍
Interesting discussion. As an active LEO myself I’d say that most officers in most gunfights would be just fine but the outliers do occur and with semi autos having evolved to a point where the reliability difference is fairly minimal I think their advantages outweigh their disadvantage at this point.
A couple of other factors to consider one in favor of each platform.
1- Cost…. New Glocks run in the 400-500 range. A new service type revolver from Smith Ruger or Colt is a least 750 and probably closer to a 1000. Multiply that across a department and it eats up a good chunk of budget.
2- Grappling if you have to take a contact shot your semi auto can get pushed out of battery. Not an issue with a revolver.
As to your point about crowds, I think the point on communication and de-escalation is well taken but I don’t think the type of sidearm carried really factors in. If 30 people rush 2 officers, as a practical matter you aren’t getting 15 shots off each before the crowd is on uou. Either the first couple shots fired makes the crowd break and run or they don’t
That last sentence seems reality-based, rather than fear-based with backfilled statistics to "support" the fear-based position. "Fear-based" means imagined possible dying moments and fear-based thoughts in those moments. But I think things in human dynamics are such that your last sentence is realistic. Mob dynamics are interesting things and it doesn't take a PhD in human psychology to know that most mob dynamics involve many cowards with a collective, and thus hollow, form of bravery/aggression. It's when they are beyond that, and are a cloaked dangerous group of soldados, that it's not hollow aggression waiting. "Fear-based" imagines cloaked soldados always; reality is probably far different.
Thanks HR. Just mounted a HI-LUX M1000 PRO on my M1A, after watching your videos. Perfect fit! ...another good fit, revolvers for EDC!
Retired military here. Whoever runs out of ammo first, loses. Done!
In a military engagement, that is probably true. Still, would you agree an inferior force can previal in a battle if they employ proper tactics?
@@hrfunk Yes. Sgt Alvin York. Just an example.
Have officers carry a Cz-P01 as opposed to the... you know junk plastic they all carry now.
Love your comment
HR, I must say that I love revolvers. Too much fun. You have a great channel - thank you.
I went to MP school at Fort McClellan, it was Army and Marines together. We did mostly 1911s, but also did training shots with S&W Model 10. Today that's actually All I have..
10-6 that is. I'm getting a lever action to match.
You can’t go wrong with a good lever gun!
I'm not a Leo, just a private citizen and retired US Army. I spent a few years training small arms gunnery and marksmanship. In my opinion more ammo is rarely the answer. Well placed, deliberate fire with a appropriate caliber will almost always trump a large volume of poorly aimed shots with marginal calibers. Then again maybe I've just read to many of Elmer Keith books.
I would say the 15 round 9 mm was the logical choice. The revolver was 6 rounds at the time of the switchover and even with speed loaders, it was slower to reload.
When we transitioned from revolvers, I was in the anti-pistol crowd. I simply saw no need. Glad we did now and my old, " You teach me to react quicker and shoot straighter and you could issue a Harper's Ferry flintlock" mentality is just a laugher.
I was in the anti-pistol clique. I can't call it a "group" because most of my LASO peers at the time seemed happy at the change. I didn't see the need. Maybe it's my imagination but when I'd "draw down" on someone with the Model 66 I formerly used, I had a few literally poo their shorts while ditching whatever weapon they had. The 92F pistol didn't seem to have that same psychological effect. I warmed up to the 92F over time, though. I had an easier time shooting DX qualification scores with it than with the wheelgun.
My first duty gun was a Colt Trooper Mk-III with 6 inch barrel and full house 357's. We wore drop swivel holsters with cartridge loops which brought the end of the gun to just about knee level on me. If I didn't remember to lift the holster when I jumped in the car I got a sharp jab to the kidney. I found happiness when we finally got Sig P226"s and high ride holsters. It made a statement when you drew that 6 inch Colt which defused many a situation on looks alone. Other than that the 226 was probably the best 9mm I ever used and I carried that for 18 years.
With so many channels blowing stuff up etc., your content is refreshing and more interesting to me. Thank you.
Never trust a woman or an automatic pistol. John Dillinger
I don’t really know the answer to your question but as someone who absolutely loves revolvers I would say if I was in law enforcement I would definitely want a semi auto as my primary carry and maybe a revolver as back up. People who are or have been in law enforcement can probably answer your question better than me. That was a great presentation with good and negative points for both. 👍👍
I came on in 1978 and was issued a SW Model 15 38 wheel gun. In 1985-86 we switched over to the Beretta 92F semi-auto 9 and we were required to go to logistics to turn in our revolvers and pick up our new Beretta. I was resistant and stalled as long as I could. Finally I got the nastygram from the Captain’s office basically ordering me to make the change. I wasn’t happy at first but I did it. The more time went on the more I liked the semi-auto. I began buying my own semi-auto pistols. When my Department authorized 45s (if you bought your own) I bought my own Beretta Cougar 45 and carried that on duty until I retired. Today, I personally own many more semi-auto pistols than revolvers. I can’t remember the last time I carried a revolver for off duty or for retired CCW. Great review sir! 🇺🇸
Thank you!
I've never been a LEO, I am a retired US ARMY NCO. I have been forced to point a handgun at another human being on 4 occasions. 2 were in the line of duty and 2 were in my home with a privately owned pistol. Both line of duty incidents involved a Government issue 1911A1, both civilian encounters involved revolvers. The first a H&R 32 S&W long and the second a Webley Mk VI modified to use 45 ACP, loaded at the time with 45 AR. In each of the 4 encounters having a gun I was prepared to use allowed me to control the situation without pulling the trigger. In the 2 on duty incidents holding people at gunpoint with a cocked 1911 made me very aware of how little effort it would take to create a very loud and unwanted noise. The 1911s involved were standard issue with trigger pulls I would estimate to be heavy, maybe in the 7-8 pound range. The two revolvers were both conventional DA/SA revolvers with very heavy DA pulls.i did not cock either revolver and create a "hair trigger" situation. Both revolvers had SA pulls considerably lighter than a GI 1911A1. Now all of this occurred between 39 and 50 years ago. No that is not a typo. The first incident with the 32 occurred just a few days after we got married in September of 1972 as we were preparing to leave CA for PA and the last one of the line off duty incidents happened sometime in 1983 or 84 while I was doing prisoner escort duty in Germany. The point I'm trying to get to is I bellive pistols are used more often to hold someone at gun point than to actually shoot them, and personally I am more comfortable doing that with a DA trigger. To that end since I retired from Uncle Sam's adventure club, and acquired CCW permit I have generally carried something with either a heavy trigger pull, S&W second generation Sigma SW9VE, a conventional DA/SA, Mauser HSc 380, a S&W CS1 a 686 variant, a S&W 649 Bodyguard, a Taurus 7 shot 357 Titanium snubby I think it was a model 617. Or a DAO revolver either a Taurus 85CH or a S&W 442. I have recently added Canik TP9DA and as soon as I can run a couple of hundred rounds through it I will add it to my EDC rotation. I believe the move from the police revolver to the semiautomatic was inevitable, as others have stated I never fell in love with the Glock trigger dingus safety and I have never bought into the notion that a striker fired trigger like a Glock is the same as conventional DA. I believe police need more and better training. I see reports that even in justified shootings police have between a 70-80% miss ratio. I don't know how much that is the result of "I have a butt load of ammo in my magazine, so I'm just going to pray and spray" and how much is the result of to little training budget dedicated to developing shooting skills. Personally I think it is more the later than the former. I'm not a cop or an Operator of any sort. I'm just an old retired soldier. For me at this time I prefer a defensive pistol that gives me at the very least the option of a heavy DA pull. As to the question of round or square gun? I'm good either way. My 442 and my 85CH both only have 5rds, my TP9DA has 18+1. I've always felt comfortable with just 5 in the wheel. But my job is no onger to run towards the sound of the guns, no one is going to judge me if I take my cane and my braces and hobble away from the sound of trouble. If it were up to me every LEO would be free to choose his or her own personal side arm. But that just is not feasible on a modern police force that has a duty and an obligation to train each of its officers to the highest possible standards. A choice must be made and today I believe the semiautomatic is the best choice. I will continue to carry my snubby revolvers when the weather and fashion don't allow for a larger modern semiautomatic. But as I said if there is trouble you will know me, I'm the geezer gimping as fast as I can in the opposite direction from the LEO's and other First Responders rushing to help and defend those in need. FULLY FUND LAW ENFORCEMENT
Yes revolver can malfunction. I’ve had it happen once With a new gun. But with a semi auto you multiply the things that can go wrong with a gun. So a semi auto to me would be less reliable and I’m not completely putting them down when I say that. You’re never out gunned unless you miss even if the other guy has a Vulcan gun.
In the various training sessions I've been in over the years, I can't remember a revolver malfunction. I know they can occur, but they are rare.
I did Federal Corrections for 20 years we started with revolvers.
I was a firearms instructor and police officer in the mid 80s and on the committee for the transition. The switch was ok but I admit we had a shotgun mounted up front and also carried BUG so never felt outgunned
Wow, you nailed the debate perfectly! I’ve always been more of a revolver person and a “6” shot enthusiast. Your point about carrying a revolver and interpersonal communications was spot on. To much paperwork if shots are fired. I’m like you the officers any more seem to be lacking in interpersonal communication and rely on use of force instead. Remember the FBI Platt and Maddox shoot out was finally stopped by one well placed revolver (38) shot by SA Mlreles…
I do remember that. Those who fail to lean from history.......
Awesome review and well put perspective. Aside from being out gunned I believe that capacity and ease of reload was the main point to change to semi-auto handguns. Semi-auto's are ammo specific and no matter what ammo you chose you are more susceptible to firearms failures. In my opinion the S&W 327 8 shot or TRR8 in 357 mag makes a great choice for revolvers. I was never a police officer but I have trained many policemen to qualify with their required handgun. That said I believe a wheel gun is more reliable and better made. Just my thoughts.
I have a M327 TR8 , I think that with a little shorter barrel ( mine is 5 inch) would make a fine duty gun today. and I think one with a 2.5 or 2.75 inch would still conceal well with the right holster.
@@glennsammon4465 I agree with you on that. My option is my 686 Plus. It has a 2 1/2" barrel with 7 rounds.
Great video as always, but it got me to thinking, instead of Revolver vs Semi Auto, what about going half way back to carrying the classic double action / single action semi auto? The added safety aspect of that first long hard trigger pull could go a long way in curbing some of these accidental shootings that occur. You still have the capacity of the typical striker fired gun, can quickly reload with magazines, and many or made of the same lighter weight polymer materials. The big benefit I see is that first trigger pull that you have to "want" to make instead of indivertibly firing when the adrenaline is pumping. I don't remember all the details or the Officers name for that matter. But I'm thinking of the incident where a female officer during a traffic stop that went sideways proceeded to pull her gun thinking it was a Taser and ended shooting and killing the suspect. Had she had a Sig, CZ, or Berretta instead of a Glock, could it have a different outcome? Just something to consider.
Great video Chief, brings back memories. Never shot a handgun upon entering the academy in 1988. Issued a (Model 19) Smith & Wesson 357 and it took many rounds to learn the long trigger pull. Loved it, proud to carry and shoot it. Always felt safe whether it was in my holster or in my hand. Such an impressive looking handgun also.
During the 90’s our department decided it was time to transition to semi-autos, we were at that time, one of, if not the last department carrying revolvers. (RI) Quite a few weren’t happy about the change, but it was handled in such a manner that it became seamless and quite enjoyable. For a week the entire department was able to sample the hottest guns available at that time. We all shot hundreds of rounds through Berettas, Glocks, S&W, Ruger, Sig, HK …9mm, 45 and the popular rd at the time 40. At the end of the week we all voted and a clear winner emerged. Not surprisingly the closest in function, and firepower, HK USP (45acp) was decided upon. We carried the lem version dao, no safety or decocker. Not sure the administration realized the expense of this brand but they honored the decision and won over even the most resistant veterans. Carried this handgun for remainder of my career and absolutely loved it, it’s power, reliability and safety. Still have both my duty weapons and shoot both on occasion. My two boys have each been promised one.
that is a fantastic gun, one of the best ever made. Also is my favorite out of what I own; mine is a V1
@@bobjones-bt9bh You have excellent taste my friend, it remains my favorite as well.
Good point. I've thought of this every time the news reports some officer dumping a magazine into the wrong person .
As always, you have presented a fair and detailed assessment of this question. I would add that revolvers can handle various types of ammo in the same cylinder. Autos would probably gag under this usage. Out at the farm you could load a combination of snake shot/hollow points/LRN to anticipate snakes, over-eager coyotes, and the odd bear. I don't want to shoot any of these critters, but I don't want to be gnawed on, either. An LEO might have a cylinder with alternating hollow points for max lethality and lead round nose ammo for barrier penetration. I am a civilian, so I am probably chickens**t enough to go with an M-9 with a 30-round extended magazine! --Old Guy
I too was in law enforcement for 20yrs. I attended the academy a few years before you. My biggest gripe with semi autos isnt the the semi auto but rather the person in charge of deciding which semi auto to choose as a duty gun.
In my personal experience cops can be some of the least enthusiastic when it comes to training. Light trigger SA autos, again imo, are the worst choice for Leo's. If I had to choose the best option, safest carry, and comfortable it would be by far the Beretta PX4 Storm da/as decocker, and maybe in 40cal. I've seen lots of itchy trigger fingered unintentional discharges while carrying what I call loaded mouse traps with light triggers. The Beretta "G" style is the closest thing to cop safe while still offering that light trigger after the initial da first pull.
Most departments should rethink their choices for duty weapon imo.
"Loaded mouse traps." That's a good one.
Great explanation ! I too started out with a S&W model 66 before transitioning to a Glock semiautomatic. Nothing wrong with an officer knowing how to work a revolver efficiently and effectively. I do think the transition to semiautomatic pistols was a great idea. They are so much faster to reload as well as a greater amount of ammunition on hand if needed. I had a high primer once during my revolver carry time in a training session that locked the cylinder up, bad situation ! Bottom line is if we lived in a perfect Mayberry type society the revolver would be fine. I do still love shooting revolvers but just not for duty use. Have a Blessed Day ! 🇺🇸
Given that many (most?) of the recent types of problems you alluded to can be attributed to improper - or a lack of - training, I think it is fair to suggest that a lighter, faster trigger, and more rounds is part of the problem.
Or does that mechanism simply facilitate the actions rooted in a deeper psychological impulse? Fight or flight?
@@hrfunk Ah, but part of police training should be learning to suppress that impulse. Again, it goes to the question of training, or lack thereof.
In theory I agree with you. On the other hand, I’m beginning to wonder if that’s possible with all human beings.
@@hrfunk Oh, it definitely isn't! Which is why the screening processes and requirements to become a police officer need to be more stringent.
You know more than I do, Chief, but the FBI did have semiautos at the Miami Dade shootout. The Newhall tragedy was a mistake in procedure, and is used as an example of how not to conduct a felony stop today. I’ve seen more than one double feed jams on the Police Activity channel, and they were not easily remedied under stress. Good Video! 👍👍👍👍
The FBI miami shootour was ended with a revolver after those with semi autos had missed 99% with their high capacity
@@classicgunstoday1972Exactly! That incident was entirely preventable as well, and turned out to be a series of tragic errors.
@@frankbutta9344 yes. Paul Harrell has done an excellent overview of it on his youtube channel.
Thanks Frank!
@@hrfunkThank you, Chief. The negotiating portion was excellent!
I was glad to swap out my revolver for the Glock, mostly based on a 1974 gunfight when I had to reload my Colt DS under fire. Cops need to be on a level playing field w/the bad guys today. I still carry a gun in retirement and recently made the switch from a 340PD to the LCP Max for the added capacity, even though my chances of needing a gun are very slim now. Excellent, thought provoking video.
@peter The 340PD is sitting in my safe.
"Revolvers! Old and obsolete right? I tell you what! You come across a guy with a .41 magnum revolver and he knows how to run it, he is going to put the hurt on you!" Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch
First duty gun was a Ruger Security Six. Second was an S&W 669. 669 was lighter, more compact and held twice as many rounds as the Ruger. Had the S&W 327 been available back then, I probably would have been content. Training wise I did a lot of shooting on my own in those days so the department did not have to spend much time training me on the carry weapon.
Well done! IMO, carry whatever you want (if you can..) but train, train, train and don't be myopic when new technology can enhance what skills you already have.
My first handgun was a S&W 686 6" that I bought to hunt with. I took my first deer with it in 1987. I did buy a 22 auto a couple of years later but everything else was revolvers in mainly hunting calibers(357, 44, 45colt etc..) until 2001 when I got my carry permit. Since then, I've come to appreciate the ease of carrying a spare mag as opposed to speedloaders & my back & hip prefer the lighter weight of polymer guns now. And yes, I've tried the polymer revolvers too. Nothing wrong with them but autos are flatter & a bit more comfortable inside my waistband where I typically have to carry. There's still a grace to a good revolver trigger that autos haven't come close to but I usually leave the revolvers for open carry while hunting now & have learned to live with auto triggers on my defensive tools: which is how I generally view autos.
Great story about the perception of the revolver as a good guy gun. Growing up, our neighbor was a motorcycle cop who went out every day in high boots and with a long barreled Smith .38 and a long cartridge belt with shiny ammo. To my 8 year old eyes he was the lone ranger, fast forward to today that even cops here in the Philippines have started copying the American policing standard gear, LBE/plate carrier with pistol mags and even AR mags. My kids cant differentiate a soldier and a policeman these days.
I have known a lot of law men over my lifetime. I am 65. I knew my small-town sheriff. He was an old school law man. He talked to people. He handled a lot of potentially explosive situations by skilled police investigative work, speaking to people logically, calmly, and if things went south, deadly force might be used. My neighbor in Uvalde was a Texas Ranger named Jaquin Jackson. He was an excellent old school law man. He had his share of old-fashioned shoot outs, due to him getting the task to go get some really bad guys. However, he too often would explain the situation to the perp, and most times convince them to get cuffed and go along nicely. He carried a 1911, 45ACP. He also had a 16" 30-30 he used in several apprehensions. He could have carried a revolver and done just as well. I do not get wrapped up in what sidearm LEOs carry. I do wish more of them get more training? Yes. Mag dumps are very common now.
Check out “Kevin Costlow” on UA-cam
Several police departments from Japan still use the "New Nambu M60" revolver, including Tokyo PD. As you mentioned, this selection seems to have been made based in part on public perception of revolvers being less "military".
Japan has a disarmed population. Difficult to compare us with them.
I wonder when an officer in Japan last used one of those revolvers.
@@hrfunk
Maybe after someone murdered that politician.
The last case I know of for sure was 2 police officers in Nagoya, Japan, who shot and killed a knife wielding arsonist in May, 2021. There are an average of 2 or 3 police shooting incidents in Japan in any given year.
I have the coolest cop revolver ever..the model 28 , oh maybe my 58? A few Sheriffs depts used those.
One of our best revolvers was a gift from a retiring Cop. His Model 28-2 6'' barrel. That is our only priceless firearm.
Hard to decide which one of them is cooler. It might be a tie.
@@hrfunk At 25 rested with I can get sub 1 inch with variety of ammo 38 spl and 357 , I can even get groups around one inch with very hot stuff like Buffalo bore .I have a video shooting the Buffalo Bore 158 at 30 meters rested called Buffalo Bore Accurate.
@@ElainesDomain wow, nice gift , the trigger on those is just perfect and max power loads are easy to control and 38 for target is so mild recoil .
@@paulscountry456 Sure is. He retired when forced to carry a semi on duty. He couldn't hit a barn with any of those.
I’m retired but still qualify annually with my 3 inch model 66 revolver and auto. One of the younger police officers couldn’t believe it. “What’s that a revolver?” Lol
I’ve got a 3” Model 66, it’s my favorite wheelgun. Those who don’t know will never know.
So true.
I was in two different police auxiliaries. Perhaps not as expert point of view as full timers, but I still might have something to offer here.
I was always a revolver guy even before I was an auxiliary. All of the local police departments used .38s, and the state police (one of my cop stints) used .357s. There were 12 visible rounds on a duty belt strip (mostly for show afaik), while as many speed loaders in snap pouches as we wanted. Most auxiliaries and the full timers had two.
My feeling at the time, just as it is now, is that speed loaders are very nearly as good as spare semi auto mags. I also pointed that out to my pistol class students. Most of them were even surprised by their existence! But it pretty much removed the fast reloading advantage of the semi autos. They took that home with everything else given, and I'm convinced that at least some of them reconsidered that aspect of the upcoming firearm purchases.
To this day I don't have a single semi auto anything. I've never felt ill equipped because of it whether hunting or carrying as a civilian.
Jmho, fwiw, ymmv, etc.
I personally think that all LEOs would be better off with a good revolver. If you've only got 6 rounds, you're going to train enough to make sure that every bullet hits where it's supposed to go. Even if full powered 357s are too much to handle for most officers, 38 +ps are more effective than 9mms. And as you said, a semi auto is ammo sensitive. A revolver on the other hand can handle a wide variety of bullet types with a wide variety of power levels. That makes the revolver a lot more versatile than any semi auto. I've watched too many videos of self defense shootings and LEO body cam footage to count and in the case of civilian self defense shootings the average round count is 3. All were 9mm and the majority of the time the bad guy still was able to run away, even if the distance was short. The LEO footage was mostly sickening. How many 150 lb crackheads need 17 rounds to put down? Most cops today have very little training and therefore they just do a mag dump in nearly every situation with no thought of collateral damage. A single 125 gr 357 or a high quality 230 gr 45 will stop most threats. The FBI one shot stop statistics prove that point very clearly. I carry a 4" aluminum frame 1911 45 everywhere I go and I sure don't underguned. I've also put enough rounds down range to make sure that I hit where I want to and become intimately knowledgeable about my particular pistol. That said, I Am going to save enough to get a Ruger GP100 357 with a 4" barrel and probably make that my EDC. I love my 1911, but since I'm an old man I will always be a revolver fan.
Another good video HR
Thanks Mark!
My first duty-issued gun when I was hired as a Federal Law Enforcement was the S&W Model 15 Combat Masterpiece. I carried that as my on-duty firearm until we transitioned to semi-automatics. I carried a S&W model 66 2 1/2" barrel .357 off duty. It cemented my lifelong love and devotion to S&W revolvers.
Thank you for this report! You have VERY accurately covered all of the important things to consider for this issue?.
I learned the 1911A1 at Parris Island in '75. Loved it!
Later, I picked up a Lawman MkIII...and fell in love again (yes, I'm an enthusiast).
I also went through these considerations as to which, when and why to carry.
Back then, it was 6 shots...or 7 pretty much...not really a game changer when proficiency was paramount with any of them.
I agree with the perception of aggressiveness portrayed by high capacity semiautos...and the possible need for them.
I'd like to introduce something to you in private, which I think you may be interested in, with your background.
It's a cartridge I dreamed of in '77...and was finally able to develop in 2014 after firearm components and metallurgy matured.
This is not a sales pitch...but rather a demonstration of determination and enginuity of an idea to get real 357 performance in a semiautomatic with high capacity in times of need.
I thought State Police were making a mistake going to a 9mm hi cap pistol and moving away from the diversity of a revolver. Sometimes, a 9mm is underpowered in highway situations.
I developed a straight walled cartridge which uses heavier bullets for occasions where needed, and use 357 bullets of hollow point or soft point design from 125 to 170 grain.
It outperforms Mr. RICCO's 9X23 on every level... higher velocity, lower pressure and a wider range of bullet selection.
If you're interested, let me know, and I'll visit to introduce you to the 357 Ring Of Fire!
Thank you, and keep up the great work!
Good overview. I was in Corrections for a while, I would say revolvers have some advantages in that context that don’t apply to police.
-Revolvers that are stored unloaded don’t deform hollow points or cause bullet setback from frequent loading/unloading.
-Loaded revolvers are easy to safely hand off to your replacement at shift change by opening the cylinder and holding it through the frame window.
-Revolvers have springs that are not under tension and less prone to fatigue (like magazines and recoil springs)
The agency I worked for switched to Glocks after I left, not really sure what policies and protocols were changed when they switched. Hope it went well.
Good morning HR
Good morning. Thanks for joining us!
Good job. You spoke very well and offered a number of excellent points in a discussion that could have great value for guys in their 30s and 40s to consider.
I carried my AAA series 586 Smith for my entire 30 Texas law enforcement career. Although I always carried a semi-auto pistol while in plain clothes or off duty, my primary reason for not switching over to an autoloader for uniform carriage was because of the inherent inferiority of "safety" holsters for autoloaders, back in the 1990s and 2000s, until I retired in 2013. I believe this is a major consideration for the uniformed officer still today.
Since then, revolvers manufacturers have become more flexible with their designs and now we see revolvers in 357 Magnum with 7 and 8 rounds of capacity. That's a lot of man stopping fire power! Those are two major factors in favor of the revolver worth considering.
John Nelson, the LAPD Sergeant who created SWAT, carried a 3" S&W .38 Special. His favorite stories were incidences when he was able to talk his way out of shooting someone.