PSA: please stop harassing people who draw Lyn and Camilla art now that the CYL voting gauntlet was a thing. they don't work hard to draw something just for you to call 1/2 of their drawing a "useless thot"
Honestly, they actually *BOTH* are, Ursula isn't as blatant about it and her actual role in the story doesn't revolve around it, but they're *both* operating off sex appeal and seduction.
This was a very well put the get video and I'm glad you didn't shy away from the fact that fan service can meaning a number of things, not just sex appeal. I do have to raise an eyebrow with your statement about Camilla being essentially a pretty vase (in the sense that she's just their to look pretty, add colour but no good for much else) since some of her supports act as way to flesh her out more and she has arguably one of the most interesting back stories in Fates, however in regards to her role in the story, then yeah I'd have to agree since she is mostly there to look nice and add flavour but doesn't contribute much which is a shame.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4, i agree, but when you think about it, the "pretty vase" mentality can apply to 80% of characters in not just fates, but Fire emblem in general, because how many of the FE characters don't do anything to the story after being recruited? Way too much when you think about it, which is why support conversations are so important, they help develop characters while at the same time not stopping the story to a screeching hault, and that is what separates FE party members from other RPG party members who say nothing thought the rest of the adventure(paper Mario, looking at you).
That's true but remember, Camilla is one of the main characters of Fates, yet ultimately doesn't end up doing much in regards to the narrative (though hinoka and sakura as well as to an extent Leo suffer the same fate), unlike most other FE games were at the very least the main cast all contribute something of value to the story, for the most part.
Charlotte remains one of my favourite examples of a fanservicey character not just in Fire Emblem but in all media, since her design comes off as trying too hard, which is exactly what Charlotte herself does with her fake persona. I also like how it reflects her gameplay-wise; if you're going to wear what is pretty much a bikini into battle, it's your own fault your defenses are so low. The comment on Lyn in FE Heroes is quite funny to me, as one of my friends, getting Brave Lyn, commented on how her breasts were so large her plate could only cover one of them. Me, visualizing the Lyn from FE7, thought he was exaggerating, but after looking at the FEH version of her, yeah, it really is that way... And since we're on the topic of tastes in 2D women, there's always Igrene from Binding Blade. Sure she doesn't look that special from her character portrait, but her official art... hot damn. For whatever reason she's always stood out to me, dunno why.
well said man, a few things though: Brave Lyn's bust is actually smaller than vanilla Lyn's. (but still larger than her original design) and her breast plate isn't armor, it's actually a piece of protection so that the bowstring doesn't snap back and hit her in the chest (though it's on her left breast and she's shooting right handed, which is backwards) and i jut looked up igrene and yeah. wow.
I mean at least Charlotte had a REASON for how she dressed. He character and background is written quite well and as such I dont mind hed design personally too much as it makes sense at least.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Why am I not surprised that Zerk is the one to know the bust size differences between each version of Lyn. Jokes aside, great video Zerk and keep up the great work!
Personally I never minded Lyns Feh design except for the skirt being WAY too high even for her.In the intro screen(art by Kozaki) it looks like shes about to flash us.
Charlottes design fits her perfectly. She's definitely one of the best fan service characters. She entices men by being sexy because she wants to marry a rich man. I haven't played echoes yet so I can't comment on Sonya
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 I want to but I spent all my money on a switch and a whole like 4 sketch games. My friend has echoes tho so once he beats it I'll borrow it from him
Zerk. This was a very risky video for you to do and to do right you did. The argumentation was informative and neutral and not a shitfest of hate against a character or characters. Surely i love it when you talk about critical topics always so good!
A problem with fanservice now is that sex appeal is a very shallow means of characterizing a person. So the hatred it gets is justified I'd say. It shows lack of faith in winning a player's heart through other means... .. which is actually reflected in the weakening of game design the series is facing nowadays.
"Nice plot" Not really. It's kind of paper thin and filled with holes. (There's also nothing stopping people from writing about THE ONE THING THAT AZURA KNEW ABOUT CAUSING THE PLOT.
I agree that Camilla's design fits her function perfectly, I just don't personally like the function. I won't bash people who do, but sexual fanservice has never grabbed my attention. Though I do think Sonya is an excellent example of how to do it right and seeing more cases of her would be beneficial in my opinion.
After my own heart, you are. It really sucks to be into gaming when SO many in the business consider sexual fanservice necessary... especially in JRPGs. Can anyone point me at a franchise of that genre which HASN'T dipped its mind into the gutter? AND has good writing and characterisation...?
While I don't know if the entire franchise pulls it off (from what I've heard, the fifth game doesn't), I've heard Wild Arms 3 praised for having good characters and not being too fanservice heavy, but my time with that game has been limited, so I don't know how accurate that is.
Is a shame that most of Camilla‘s character development you can just know it If you grind a little her supports and just a little bit is shown during the main story. But thats has always been the case in most Fire emblem games to the date. Just as an example of an older one: Nephenee in Path of Radiance, you mostly will no be able to know ANYTHING about her unless you pair up her with certain units. Camilla is a simple but enjoyable character, no, the whole royal family of Nohr are amazing characters that are united as a family that are not related by blood something that I really enjoy. The concept of how a non-related family are more united than the Birthright one is really lovely. All of them were born from different women Garon had. Leo, Elise and Camilla their mothers never loved them, they just used them as tools to get better benefits as royals, so Camilla tries to fit that role because she cares for them, same goes for Corrin who didnt know her/his parents, because of that she doesnt want her/him to feel the loneliness she felt in her childhood. Now I wont deny she has an excess of fanservice, just look at her cutscenes. Most people that judge Camilla for her appearance or design or call her "Thot" havent even play fates, I think the only retarded ones are the ones who bash a franchise they apparently love and tell others they're stupid for liking it. Without to mention her design is a pretty good selling point for other games.
So, what you're saying is, no design is truly... thotless after all. *pained, wheezing laughter* Also, before getting into my main points/thoughts, I gotta say, while Gaiden art was... well, art of it's time, I gotta say, the manga adaptation wasn't quite as... shall we say, conservative. The image on Celica's page for her appearance in the manga could be described as a... suspension of disbelief. *is shown out the door* Nah, but you raise a good point about fanservice in Fire Emblem games, and how well the design choices vs aspects of their character fit. You're quite right in the idea that Ursula's design is... off, in a sense, because of the weird cleavage window in the outfit that doesn't quite match her personality. You're also kinda right in how it can be kinda similar with Kagero, in that while I COULD see her wearing that outfit as kunoichi sex appeal thing (however you wanna call it), the ass window and it only seeing use in combat does distract slightly because she doesn't seem like the kind of character to do that. It's an interesting disconnect, all in all. Related to Fates, where a somewhat fanservice-y design works for a character without detracting from the character's other aspects, I'd say a pretty good example is Rinkah. While she certainly does show a good deal of skin (only straps covering her chest, with a bare torso otherwise), I think that it works in her favor due to her other design/characterization choices: the visible musculature draws more attention, the pose gives her an air of strength (it has that "sword planted in the ground" vibe to it), and the lack of an emphasized bust and visible cleavage doesn't draw a great deal of attention to the area. Granted, I could be overly-sympathetic to her design, but I think she's a good way to make that sort of design work. TBH Fire Emblem has always tried to inject some level of fanservice, no matter the game - there's plenty of short skirts and the like worn by many females, busty characters and leg-showing outfits aren't anything new (For example, Vaida), but I think a part of the problem is that it's gone from... modestly realistic for a fanservice design (form-fitting outfits, showing some leg, etc) to becoming such a forceful effort at hitting all the fetish points that it trips over itself (Camilla's crotchless pants, while riding atop a Wyvern no less). In short, I think the big issue is the overemphasis on fanservice design is what does it, where the designs place TOO much effort into the fanservice appeal that it becomes less believable and more distracting. I think that's what I mean to say, anyway...
Be careful though when you say realistic in relation to FE armor, since when it comes to realism, Camilla's armor is actually more accurate in functionality to real medieval armor than the vast majority of FE females (and even many males). The only parts that are poorly designed from a practical stance are the exposed breasts and high heels, but NOT the exposed crotch as real armor had little to no armor in that region since it would have restricted movement. So having an exposed crotch vs wearing pants makes no difference when in comes to protection. Camilla is also one of the few FE females to wear greaves and gauntlets, as well as armor that actually covers the abdomen (though again, the exposed breasts makes that point a bit moot).
I mean, even the SoV Celica design is pretty ridiculous. She's meant to be a priestess, having spent much of her life being raised by those of the Mila religion, yet she bares her upper thigh and her shoulders like it's normal. I also vividly remember during the period of SoV's announcement, when leaks and the likes were happening, everyone saw her design and instantly started saying how pretty she was; it's the same kind of surface detail judgement that is a direct result of a carefully crafted character design that panders to a specific audience...it just so happens that her character doesn't fit with how much skin she shows, but since it's not as much as Camilla or Tharja, people overlook it because most don't care at all for nuance. Something else about her design...where is the support for her dress and breastplate? There are no shoulder straps, which means all that weight is held up by her boobs and for some reason she never has to readjust it every 3 mins.
IMO it's unrealistic and impractical, but I'm OK with that because it still looks semi-plausible, doesn't contradict anything about the characters, and doesn't break immersion. My problem with Camilla's design is that it breaks immersion. Boob armor fits in fanservice without that happening, so I'm OK with that.
Boob armor really breaks immersion imo. Armor is supposed to lead the enemy blows AWAY from your organs.let‘s take Cordelia from Awakening, her Boob armor has a large area in the middle of her chest area that leads the enemy attack directly into her Heart and Lungs. Also, if the enemy had a blunt weapon, like a Hammer, the Armor would function like a Spearhead pointing towards her body.
Benington the weird thing about boob armor in fire emblem is that some characters have it while some don't. Phila and Lucina have flat plates (assuming luci's is leather/thin armor), and Flavia and Sully both have chestplates that resemble sports bras, providing mostly flat protection while still having shape
I wouldn't really consider Ursula that fanservicey, at least in fe7, sure she has a bit of cleavage and a bit of legs showing, but that the thing: a bit. Sonia on the other hand shows of a lot and is obviously the seductress, thanks to Heroes we also have an example of an often overlooked factor: how they're drawn, due to highlights in shading and the position and increased size the become a central point , the art draws you to it.
saifors that's certainly a good point. but here heroes art likely wouldn't be the way it is were it not for her original art being somewhat misleading.
Not in particular, Heroes art varies pretty greatly in how well they represent characters, Lachesis and fEst for example looking like loli moe blob, which while for the latter you could make a case because of her being the youngest whitwing, for the former it's just... no, like I have no words to describe how they represent Lachesis other than... just no. All in all Heroes has a lot more fanservice than average in multiple ways. Also another example is Lloyd looking like a drug addict/alcoholic.
I dislike Camilla because she was specifically written to be a sexual fanservice character. Her static personality and lack of character development certainly doesn't help me like her any more.
Camilla has no business wearing that garbage. She was written especially in the jpn version to be more motherly and less seductive. Blame fucking Fates for throwing her character into the dumpster and making it shit. Awful. Awful character. Her blatant obsession with Corrin fails to help her and makes her backstory contradict how she is in supports. If she was less dependent on Corrin and more dependent on others too it would be way more believable.
I would've liked if that was her casual wear, but once she was a boss or as a playable character she donned more armor to show that shit was more serious.
uh? ok? then chock that up as something fates's english version actually does better. i explained during the sonya segment that her design is still out there, but could have had the same effect if altered slightly, (namely, just giving her pants) and large breasts are a sign of fertility and maternity most notably IN JAPAN, her design is perfectly explainable either way.
Fanservice done wrong. It shouldn't play the big part of her like how Sonya's body is nowhere near as focused and she actually has a character. Did Sonya have her boobs to the screen? No. Did Charlotte? Nuh uh. It's literally only Camilla and that's what makes her past the limit of good fanservice. She had nothing to flesh her out and have her character be good so it's not even a type of a character that proves there's more to them like Charlotte. I would never take that bitch seriously in and out the game. Fuck Camilla.
Camilla's fanservice is downright tasteless with not one but two cutscenes with direct zoom ins. I'm disgusted on how you can try to justify that It should always be kept LOWKEY like how every female character had it going.
Horrible-Artist699 i'm well aware of that. it literally says in the video her design would have been just as effective with some alterations to her chestpiece or by giving her pants. Nuibaba ヌイババ I won't for a second defend Camilla's portrayal in cut-scenes. what i will however defend is her portrayal outside of them. her support with Xander is great, saying she has nothing going for her is wrong. is she a good character? fuck no. is she a functional character who executes a niche? Yes.
My big problem is that some of the archetypes these characters are meant to sort of take inspiration from just got suddenly sexualized for no real reason. Camilla is meant to be a reference of Promoted Enemy Wyverns turned good like Minerva, Altena, and Miledy. Besides not being drenched in red like them, she suddenly has really sexual elements that don't fit the archetype. Nowi versus the other young Manaketes is also another example and I wonder what sexuallizing that archetype reveals of it. Xander is fine because he is sword Camus and looks and acts the role, he's not inexplicably shirtless. Another thing is that people like subtlety and not being bluntly pandered to, it's why kids get into stuff like Minecraft or 5 Nights at Freddy's. You have to learn stuff like Java to be able to mod Minecraft and kids eat that stuff up. Also don't simple designs tend to resonate more? Characters like Pac-Man, Mario, Slime, and Sonic. Also I'd pantless Marth, Asvel, and the FE3-FE6 dancers and maybe Fir, the first fanservice characters :P.
fair. but i think charlotte and sonya nail subtlety in their designs. even Charlotte who's design is trying WAY too hard, is a perfect reflection of her personality, also trying WAY too hard. '
The Lyn part was explained perfect I felt like you were talk about me, I hold Lyn in a special place because she is the first unit I used and seeing how badass her critical animation is (Promoted Lyn as well) she will always be my favorite unit and I welcome any fanservice that comes her way. I also happen to have Lyn Bride Lyn and Brave Lyn and that just makes me happy
Yeah, ok. I guess a character that fully embraces fanservice is better is better than one with clashing approach. But I still think it's kind of.. bothersome when the Fanservice goes so far that the outfit doesn't make any sense. I don't know much about how to effectively make armor, but having a gap to show your bikini bottoms like Camilla or wearing no armor at all like Charlotte seems wrong to me. Could that be added into the "function" part of the triangle?
function is function from a narrative standpoint (character roles etc.) and i adress the poor realism of charlotte and camilla's designs during the sonya segment.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 I heard that as "Sonya's outfit is on theme with sexy dark mage" rather than "Charlotte is not wearing enough clothing." But I see how that is similar. It seems like we are on more or less the same page regardless.
I think it can depend on the expectations? In some games that focus more on realism, I'll be extra critical to designs and behaviors that aren't reasonable in the scenario. Fire emblem is clearly a game that focus more on artistic design than realistic design, they are fully aware of that so they can afford to do designs that don't make much sense to the scenario but effective in expressing the characters. In FE I expect clothings and armors lose their functional part of purpose and only focus on the statement purpose, so I'm less picky if the design is utility wise unreasonable.
Lucina is a fanservice character too, she reminds a lot of Marth, and he's the most overexploited lord in the franchise. Lucina is made on purpose to have Marth in the game. Adult Tiki could be another fanservice character because she's a main caracter from the first game.
I really enjoyed this. That said I need to point out that Ursula idolized Sonia and wanted to be just like her. Which means her design having so much in common with Sonia's actually reflected that part of her character. Also as a FE veteran who voted for Lyn in the popularity contest I really enjoyed your analysis. Lyn is a character we super imposed romantic feelings for just because of how good her character was. To faith represent as she was requires good writing that couldn't be fitted into FE Heroes. That said I think they were respectfull when they gave her a modest increase in her bust. I honestly thought they slightly aged her up instead.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4, So you think it's a bit too forced when they mention it in the game? Honestly I can see why you would think that and respect it. Honestly that part is brought up very briefly and quickly before you fight her.
Since I played the game as a female strategist I never saw Lyndis as someone being into the main character. She was my best friend who rescued me at the start and I decided to follow her. It was very pure and nice.
Everybody's going to interpret things very differently, I've had plenty of people tell me that they think Lyn is bisexual because the dialogue doesn't change much regardless of the tactician's gender, so the romantic coding exists even for the female option. Likewise tons of people don't see any romantic coding even with the Male tactician. Everyone's different, that's what makes art... art, no interpretation or opinion is inherently more correct.
i feel like camilla is widely misunderstood. she is a Domme if people knew anything about D/s relationships they would know that when she is fawning over a character it's out of a desire to control and take dominance over that character. she has identified you as a potential pet. it's not a coincidence her head adornment has delivish horns on it. as a domme myself it pisses me off that people think she is only about sex appeal. also purple is a color that is both feminine and masculine a the same time.
You making something about fanservice being the return of a long forgotten character If I wanted fan service of that variety I would want Jake from the 1st fire emblem game to get a hero's outfit like his girlfriend Anna and I would have him be an Archer.
I never liked Ursula, but i think her design is really appropriate for her design and role. She demonstrate in every conversation with sonia how obsessed she was about reach the perfection and become a morph copy. Is only one hipotesis, but i think she is only trying to copy Sonia as best she can including clothes but still remaing the responsibilities of being a comander. In other hand maybe is just a fanservice and my opinion really is not accurate. btw, sorry about my english.
hey no problem your English is fine. I've heard the thought about her trying to copy Sonia before, but there just not enough evidence to really suggest that.
I mean me personally, I played both blazing sword and sacred stones until I lost my gba micro and I actually preferred the character development of many many characters in sacred stones to those in blazing sword. (might be because you actually had time to flesh out everyone's back stories and such) but I get what you're saying and I agree.
I feel like Awakening's redesign of the Dark Mage class is also fanservice done right, as the context for it is, IMO, pretty strong. The class is most associated with the nation of Plegia. The DESERT nation of Plegia. Where the sun will beat you down more than even ya boi Guzma. Going a bit skimpy with the cloth suddenly isn't a bad idea.
I always appreciate people discussing them merits of fanservice, and I think you hit a lot of the key points - it can draw people in and provide an immediate appeal, as well as provide some characterization. I think it's definitely possible to have a deep character who also provides fanservice and would say Charlotte is a great example, I don't know if I see it as much for Sonya (I think she's a good character, but her design isn't as intricately interwoven with her personality and motivations). But maybe that's just a problem of Echoes having a tiny support pool, since Sonya only gets a single support and a small amount of other dialogue. It baffles me how much of the FE fanbase seems to hate fanservice, but I guess people have their tastes...and some hate everything that isn't to theirs.
Wonderful points! I definitely agree, especially about Sonya from Echoes. Fire Emblem has always done a fabulous job with its female characters I think. For the most part, I've never even considered the "sexy" characters as fanservice cuz they always just came across as sexually confident women, who either used their looks as part of their skill set, making it important that they look attractive, or just owned it. Sexiness isn't a bad thing in characters as long there is variety so not everyone is sexy xD My issue tho is Fates, where the female designs for the "sexy" characters don't make me think "you go girl, rock it" and instead "welp I guess the male developers wanted to ensure people buy the games so they threw in vag and ass openings in clothing ._." *Cough* Effie, Peri, Camilla and more *Cough* Whereas the designs of Sonya, Sonia, Vaida, Petrine etc etc are an empowering sexy, Camilla for example just comes across as so ridiculous and objectified. Ass, panty and titty openings? Wtf?? Like girl, just wear a low cut top, protect your ass like what is going on here 😂😂😂
ZerkMonsterHunter 4, exactly, for some reasons effie shows a full blown butt and sophi when in the promoting animation shows a buttflap, i dont get it, And while i am at it the only problem i have with this video(although nit picky) is that the thumbnail is the same as your "marketing saved awakening " just changed cordelia with tharja and the SAO girl with camilla.
Great video man as always. Keep up the amazing work man. Cant wait for your next video. Seriously I love your content. You talk about stuff like this so damned well.
Rex Ming, also i think so long as the big breasted characters have actual personalities, not just "i have big tities" im fine, and modern FE does that great.
Also, with Lyn's dress, the slits on it make sense as she's essentially a Swordmaster, and many swordmasters, usually females, have that kind of design, like Ayra, Karla, etc. If they wore a dress that long without those, they wouldn't be as agile as they would be since they're supposed to be fast.
I wonder how much of Lyn's new design would have to do with people who entered the series at FE7 aged and _inspired_ some visual "Thank you's" from the team at IS for sticking around
Watching this again, with Ursula is that she idolizes Sonia, she wears what she wears in an attempt to emulate her. So I think that she makes sense (also the regal purple stuff u mentioned). As with Kagero who in my eyes has a bit much of a bust but her outfit is doing everything it can to stick to being a ninja and being lightweight. It could be better but in my eyes is not that bad.
This is 3 years late vut now im looking at tge F.E Hero's new heroes events..... and oh lord Lyn is just how do you put it? Attractive and eye catching
Very well done video my friend. It's so professional that if you put it on National Geographic I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Loved the explanation of Fanservice. I always considered it sex appeal or bringing back a fan favorite. Never knew about that other stuff. Learn something new every day. That being said, I will keep shitting on Camilla and Tharja. The only thing I care about when it comes to characters is complexity and lovability. To use Fates as an example since I 100% completed everything including supports, Takumi is easily my favorite in there. The most screen time, the most flaws, the most positive traits, and the most growth. Cue in Camilla. Motherly figure who is bloodthirsty, psychotic, and obsessive. The bad heavily outweighs the little good. Complexity may not be why she or Tharja exist but that's not going to change my scale. Their not lovable either. Arthur isn't complex at all but his goofy demeanor and good nature makes him great. I don't want to type an essay but that's the gist of it. I will keep hating on garbage characters like Camilla and Tharja now and forevermore, even when One For All shatters every bone in my body for punching them in the face at 100%.
eh. no matter your opinion on them it's hard to deny they serve their narrative function down to the molecule. and as a writer, flow and deliberateness of detail matters a lot more to me than to some. It's hard for me to enjoy a story nowadays without picking apart every little extraneous detail.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear! I'm not denying what your saying in the video. I agree with your reasoning that they fulfill their narrative function. That's fine and dandy. Your a writer? Cool! Congratulations man! Must be why your video flowed so well. Unfortunately I'm no writer and I just wanted to share my opinion. Complexity and Lovability is all I look for. Camilla and Tharja have neither which is why their faces are kicked in atm XD. As I said, *I'm not disagreeing with you at all* bro.
I was apprehensive at first because of the source material, but you made an interesting video without it just talking about sex appeal. You managed to get the point across that it has to have a reason for being there to be there in the first place, and can't just be dropped in for purely fan service.
"Hector is discount Guts" Triggered, disliked, unsubbing, reported...nah, just kidding. Hector was my favorite male Lord until Ike. And I had a crush on Lyn. I agree with you on mostly everything, just two points I wanted to discuss: 1) You know female knights and paladins in Fates have thongs instead of pants in their 3D battle models. Do you think it was needed for characters like Effie or Sophie? Or more like a Kagero case? I tend to think, Kagero case. But even the female Corrin end up in a thong while ridding a fricking horse... 2) What is your opinion about Faye in Valentia? She was supposed to be fanservice...for the ladies. Having a lady villager in the all guy Ram crew. But I just hate her characterization so, so much...I am gonna drink a [B]otion.
Yeah, I know right...how to appeal to girls and make them play Fire Emblem Echoes? Add in a Yandere with no redeeming quality whatsoever. I benched Faye. But I loved the Valentia remakes so much. Alm is a much better leader than Corrin. Celica has issues but she is all right. And ALL PRAISE LORD BERKUT!
Hey Zerk, I preordered the Fire Emblem Warriors special edition. Honestly, I don't care if the main represented games are Awakening and Fates. I enjoyed both... Awakening more so, Fates less so. Full weeb: Lol dude, who's the weeb now?! Me: I said Awakening is better than Fates. Also plowing through waves of enemies as my favorite characters is awesome!
Colton Zuspan, while at face value i dont agree with awakening being better than fates(well... AWA is better than birthright, i still consider conquest far better and have yet to play revelations). Could you elaborate why you think that? (For the record this is not meant as insulting, i am genuinely curious)
Daniel pintado Birthright was like Awakening.... Too much if you ask me. Corrin is a blank slate. S/He has no personality. (Female Corrin has SOME personality, but they both suck.) Conquest wasn't bad, but not great. People go on and on about its design, which I understand. But I think it's overrated. *spoilers* Where do I start with Revelation...? True final boss? Not fleshed out enough... OR EVEN SHOWN SEVEN CHAPTERS BEFORE THE ENDGAME!!! I HATE Corrin. With a burning passion. WAY hotter than Sigurd. Omega Yato? OP. ...Not as OP as the Binding Blade, mind you, but still. While Fates fixed some of Awakening's problems, I don't like Fates. For me personally, way too much "Waifu" shoved in my face.
Daniel pintado I enjoyed them from a gameplay perspective. Some maps had interesting mechanics. Dragon Veins, Partner Seals, Friendship Seals. I enjoyed those, but the story... Not so much. I can sum up each game in a sentence. Birthright: Bad guys are attacking and killing civilians, we gotta kill them back. Conquest: Apparently, Garon isn't himself, we gotta expose him for what he really is and kill him. Revelation: You thought it was Garon pulling the strings, BUT IT WAS I, ANANKOS!! Corrin: hey guys, I'm a dragon... because plot reasons.
Colton Zuspan, i completely agree with you, fates... I couldn't give fuck all about the story but as a videogame, gameplay wise is probably the best in the series, also the best soundtrack. So yeah, the story is weak, but let us not pretend awakening's story was that much better, in my opinion it goes downhill in the 2nd act and drops straight to hell in the final one.
I think Camilla's character is misunderstood to the western audience who may not be familiar with her kind of (not so uncommon) trope that exists in Japanese characters. In fact, I think a lot of stuff is lost in localisation, for a good portion of each cast.
One thing I should mention is that in the medieval period, a woman showing some cleavage wasn't viewed the same as it is now, so someone like Ursula showing some actually isn't that weird in the context of the setting (though I'll admit, I'm not sure about Japan during this time period). Examples like Ursula and Kagero could still work if that's normal within the setting. That being said I still think they were designed from a fanservice perspective.
Before watching: The Left one is Commander The right one is Sedectruss Edit:WOAH I got that right and I didn’t play blazing sword. and Lyn is a good character just the way she is.
I kinda raise an eyebrow at the "GBA Lyn was not a fanservice character" statement. First of all, how many GBA sprites have jiggle physics? Second, it could be argued that vague dialogue is intentional, that just because the developers chose not to commit to something, doesn't mean that they aren't trying to create a sort of welcome speculation. I guess I kinda feel like she's fanservice from a different time, there's a valid point that some may find her just as visually attractive as Ursula, if not moreso. The standard was different back then. Lyn is obviously not a Camilla, in fact one of the most hilarious pieces of FE fanart I ever saw was the two of them swapping outfits. But, there is a subjective element to fanservice. I, for instance, dove into Awakening full force and yet I don't find Tharja attractive (even though I do like Camilla and Ursula). A lot of people respond, visually, to a thigh goddess who has a brighter, friendlier, less intimidating design to her than Sonya or Ursula. The bright colors, long ponytail, and warm smile captivate them more than one more low cut top, that's a real thing. Overall, love this video, love your insights, and glad to see someone calmly analyze the merits of fanservice characters.
thank you glad you enjoyed the video! here's a slightly better explanation on my thoughts about Lyn becoming a fanservice character over time, as opposed to her inception. In my opinion, saying Lyn is fanservice is like saying Celica or Eirika are fanservice characters. Lyn became fanservice because she's become iconic. as I said in the video sexual themes become fanservice when they are directed at the audience. the vague writing between her and the tactician is pure, and has no sexual undertones, unlike say, her A support with Rath. Lyn was never outwordly presented as sexy to the audience this until heroes, therefore she became fanservice. yes she's pretty and has a nice frame, but so do most female characters in this series. Camilla, Sonya, Charlotte and Kagero are exceptions, Lyn isn't. Lyn is part of the status quo.
Well, my perception is a little skewed because I didn't get into FE until Path of Radiance, so I have little to no appreciation for Lyn's character beyond what I've seen in analysis videos (and obviously that's second hand), and the tiny morsels that Awakening, Smash, and Heroes throw us. So I'm looking at her visual design in a relative vacuum, and also not subject to the in-game portraits that only show her from the waist up. While it is common for female characters to show a bit of skin here and there, Lyn seem to take it a bit further than the average for her time. Her design is simple enough in a neutral stance, but seems to deliberately accent her physique when she is preparing a strike on the GBA game cover art (Heroes widened the gap in her neutral stance but her attack art doesn't look that different, bust size aside). I look at Lyn, and when I compare her visually to female Myrmidons like Mia or Athena, there's a pretty clear difference, just as much as there is between Lyn and the more over-the-top fanservice characters of Awakening and beyond. She's kind of the middle ground between the two, but again, she comes from an era that predates the latter, and she is very clearly designed to draw the audience's eye when you look at her in that context. If the fanservice label is being applied to her retroactively, I would argue there is a sound logic to it, because she is about as fanservicey as the series got at that time, and I'm sure that among other things did contribute to her becoming so iconic as to eclipse the likes of Elincia and Caeda. To be clear, none of that says she is an avatar-sexual character. I actually agree with you on that point, nothing convinces me she was ever into Mark that way. I kind of instinctively walked into devil's advocate territory when I commented on vagueness.
Hypershell her design is actually pretty standard given her time and class. look at Karla, Marisa, Vaida, Igrene, Tethys, they all hail from the GBA era and show just as much, and in some cases more skin, with some of them having more outwardly sexual personalities as well. out of context, I can see where you're coming from. I reccomend giving FE7 a play through some time.
Well Expressed Zerk! I feel like there might be some weak parts in your logic but I notice the thought you put into it. Ultimately I think your analysis on character design and concepts at least warrants a listen.
While I disagree with using the term "Namesake" when referring to Sonya (as she is just a character redesign of an FE2 character with the same name, therefore was not named after FE7 Sonia, thus rendering the definition of the term "namesake" false in this context) - Outside of that pedantic argument, good video, very well thought-out. Certain points are hit or miss I guess but I see and agree with the general argument.
It's like I'm following two (or more) meanings of "fanservice", because of my "cultural trip with the internet" or such, and, compatibly with what you said: "Easter eggs, fan-favorite characters returning from the dead, items and catchphrases" is what I see how the Brazilian geek community around me (who accompanies Star Wars, Marvel and DC series, anything that's trending in Netflix, those things) sees "fanservice" "Use of sex or sexual themes to entice the audience" is what I see how the English-speaking people that I see in the internet who observe the repercussion of Japanese games sees "fanservice" So, it's kind of a divided matter for me
My thousand apologies for my non-specific comment, I was just passing by in your channel and wanted to comment quickly to not to waste time. I did not had the intention to "change the facts", I just wanted to comment about my particular view of the "fanservice" term and how I see it being treated so differently (that's sorta why I started my comment with "It's like")
great, great video so you decided to make me cry with that segment from lyn's story arc's ending, huh? btw, i agree with everything you said, but honestly, i prefere the "owain" kind of fanservice all the references to the past titles were just hilarious! from my point of view, i can't really that sonia was fanservice, because the sprites were too small to reveal something the first fanservice character, for me, is petrine, but since she's almost completely covered, it's not that "fanservice-y" either but hey, she has boobs, and you can clearly see them in PoR -and oliver, god i love oliver-
i'd have mentioned petrine, but she never really had the same impact on me as other FE characters. she just isn't particularly memorable or interesting, as a result i could never figure out if her design was justified or not.
All this talk about how Lyn was portrayed by the fans is making me exited for a Blazing Sword remake. I always felt like their relationship was stuck in like this wierd grey area between romantic and not romantic. That's probably my interpretation though.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Mark is the player, their gender,name, detailed personality and background are all up to the player ( though a warrior's conversation reveals that they are a bit aloof, and in game care about their friends). One of my friends for example ship Mark x Hector. For me though Mark is a young female teen, a bit aloof and has no romantic interest ( probably because I have no interest in a romantic relationship). How do you usually portray Mark? (I'm curious)
+ZerkMonsterHunter 4: Given Bridal Lyn's Lvl 40 dialogue in Heroes, it's unlikely that I.S. would end up pushing Mark/Lyn. If anything, I see them more likely to add a playable Nomad named Nadine in FE7 than to push Mark/Lyn
Well I got the question about which one is the seductress right. The lady on the left looks fashionable, which would make sense for a mercenary leader.
i think ursula's desing does work because in the game sonia influences her to the point where ursula wishes to be exactly like sonia so it makes sense the way she dresses and looks for story reasons
In my opinion, shadow of Valentina has the coolest character design in all the series. Just looking at alm's armour or Faye's clothing shows a lot of character while not feeling unrealistic or over the top, like many character designs in the series (by the way, I'm mainly talking about their appearances in heroes, since I have not played the original games)
Not bad at all Zerk. For me fanservice is when I see my favorite character in a totally different game or a bunch of characters I like who don't go together but end up doing so. Examples of these include Smash Bros or I don't know if you heard of the game series Project x Zone or even with the FE series in a few games seeing characters return like the Whitewings from Shadow Dragon to Echoes or Tiki from Shadow Dragon to Awakening much older. FE Heroes was my love letter for fanservice for the FE series. Seeing characters come together in teams you wouldn't think possible. Awakening tried to do this and while it was fun, it really felt out of place since the character models were not them, it was the Robin's part put together to try and emulate the characters. Heroes though looking weird for the first time, their model here at least matches the art given to them. Boy that was long anyways great video.
I was ready to hear an incredibly opinionated video but instead I found this video surprisingly educational. I already know all about fanservice done right (which I still find to very subjective) but your analysis Lyn's fanservice is incredibly enlightening. I hope you do a video about Lyn in the near future & explore the relationship/impact she has on the players.
AgentKyo why thank you! I tried to look at things based on writing and character design so I could really dive into the subject. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'll do a Lyn analysis some time in the future for sure.
You raised some good points, and despite Camilla and Tharja never really sticked out to me, They actually did a greater job than blazing sword Sonia in popularity alone and alas we never saw Camilla in a succubus costume due to I can probably guess too many people bashing Fates
Perhaps I see things differently to other people, or maybe I'm missing something. I've never really seen breasts and thighs as "Fan service." At least, not immediately. As you said, camera angles can do a lot, and it's the camera angles combined with things like Camilla's size and lack of pants that calls the ideas of fan service in. As such, I've never seen Ursula, Lyn or even Sonya as fan service. A bit of thigh and a slightly exposed cleavage is not exactly uncommon, and I honestly never looked at those design choices as anything other than just what the character happens to wear. Maybe it's as you said, the term fan service has been morphed to basically refer to sexily women that I just don't see it anymore unless it is rather obvious. When Echoes came out, people immediately mentioned how it's still got some fan service, and all I could think was "What, cause they show a bit of skin? Ok..." Is there something wrong with me? Or do I just see things different to everyone?
in truth the term has gotten really watered down. part of it is misuse, part of it is the influx of anime starting to enter the mainstream, but fanservice has lost a lot of its meaning. so you're not wierd. you're just behind the times is all.
Insightful video but tbh the beginning comparison between Ursula and Sonia felt kind of redundant since their poses telegraph the characteristics you asked to identify (respected commander vs seductive)
When you talk about character design and fan service some of it makes sense but not all. It’s mainly the part about what makes a character good fan service. Other than that though I understand everything else and the video is great.
This was a very well done video, zerk. Excellent points on lyn's emergance into the fan service world and how camilla and charolette are designed with that in mind. But, as with all great videos that I find, through all the examples and visual editing, I always lose track. By the end of the video, I can't answer the question in the title. Is it that the newer designs flow with the character's personality and function, or am I missing something?
I really like Ursalas design. I don't think a more revealing design makes a character worse even if it's not tied to their story. Why can't a character be interesting but also dress "fanservisely" just because she/he likes the way it looks.
@@ZerkMonsterHunter I think a woman has the right to wear what they want without acknowledging it, that doesn't make it right to say they are doing it for attention. Try that argument against a real woman and see how weird that is.
If you ask me the major thing about Lyn being a fanservice-y type character might have to do with how her legs are shown through the openings in her-I wanna say tunic?-Which is admittedly understandable in some cases because they are admittedly nice legs. So all you have to do to fix the problem would be to cover them up like they do in FE Heros by making her wear pants. Thus removing the appearance and fixing the problem of her coming off as Fanservice. But then again that's just my opinion.
Sonya (Echoes) is one of my favorite characters in the franchise for the reasons in the video. A perfect balance of design, personality, and functionality.
Why is the over the top sexual type of fan service being put in fire emblem, a game that really doesn’t need this type of this fan service. Focus on the characters story and personality should come first and not the size of their tits. It seems like they designed Camilla first then said “fuck it, make her the sex appeal”. The way you describe her as a motherly figure is very much your own opinion where as I see her as a character they threw into the fates trailer to try to sell copies of the game to the “weeb” demographic which is mainly older males interested in busty anime characters, this can be said about Elise and Sakura as well with them being 'jump the shark' little girl characters. So now, how does this fit into the build of fire emblem at its core as a game being a fantasy war simulator?
there are several reasons I deliberately talk slowly, one is that I have a stutter, and speeding it up while I edit also makes it sound unnatural to me. I also think speaking slower helps me announciate better.
I don't think breast/hips size should be taken into account. So what if it doesn't fit? Unline their clothes, the character can't do anything about it. I find it more interesting when the body is chosen randomly than when it's created specially with a personnality in mind. (it's overall a nice video but that part kinda bugged me)
TrefleV it's from a writing standpoint, a character shouldn't be made sexy unless it feeds into their character. look up the concept of "Checkov's Gun" otherwise, glad you enjoyed.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Chekov's gun makes writing and reading (or playing, whatever) much less fun though. People that are sexy for no reason other than that they're born this way exist, so I don't see why they can't be represented? I mean, no one analyses hair colour. I get your point, but I still don't really agree, since it's based on a writing rule I dislike ^^'
PSA: please stop harassing people who draw Lyn and Camilla art now that the CYL voting gauntlet was a thing. they don't work hard to draw something just for you to call 1/2 of their drawing a "useless thot"
I think I am having second thighs about Lyn's heroes design...
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 when promoted lyn attacks with the sol katti without to crit, is this also considered fanservice?
L Schnitzer more or less. it's a weird one though because that animation is only in the versions released outside of Japan.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 lol what? Why?
ew275x. lyn is no thot, leave my comments section.
This video is awesome but forgot who's the best seductress.
Wrys the seductress.
My favorite is when Wrys used the Wrys staff and Wrys’ed all over the enemies with his E rank staff abilities.
Zerk: There are two characters on the screen right now. Could tell me the shared aspects of their design. Me: THICC
If someone called Ursula a seductress when Sonia is on the same screen, I'd ask them to get their eyes checked.
it's kinda rigged to be honest.
ehren, how about instead of the FE7 portrait he used the FE heroes one?
Would that make it any easier?
Still wouldn't. Sonia's pose still lends to the seductress idea.
ehren if the body language wasn't so different it's be a much harder question.
Honestly, they actually *BOTH* are, Ursula isn't as blatant about it and her actual role in the story doesn't revolve around it, but they're *both* operating off sex appeal and seduction.
Yall forgetting the best fan service character 🅱️atta the 🅱️east 💯🔥🔥💦😤
Belairofprincefresh Never forgetti 😂
Don't forget Ghe🅱️ and 🅱️xcellus.
Preach it
what about Peerless Swordplay Glass?
*looks at Sonia and Ursula*
*pause*
Nice...
*looks at Linde and Ishtar*
Me likey!
*looks at Lyn*
*inhale*
"IT HAS THE POWER TO CHOP NUTS!!"
*reads comment, tilts head, spits out drink chuckling*
This was a very well put the get video and I'm glad you didn't shy away from the fact that fan service can meaning a number of things, not just sex appeal. I do have to raise an eyebrow with your statement about Camilla being essentially a pretty vase (in the sense that she's just their to look pretty, add colour but no good for much else) since some of her supports act as way to flesh her out more and she has arguably one of the most interesting back stories in Fates, however in regards to her role in the story, then yeah I'd have to agree since she is mostly there to look nice and add flavour but doesn't contribute much which is a shame.
thank you. and when io made the vase comparison it was in context of the main story, her supports not withstanding.
I had feeling it was, glad I was on the money.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4, i agree, but when you think about it, the "pretty vase" mentality can apply to 80% of characters in not just fates, but Fire emblem in general, because how many of the FE characters don't do anything to the story after being recruited?
Way too much when you think about it, which is why support conversations are so important, they help develop characters while at the same time not stopping the story to a screeching hault, and that is what separates FE party members from other RPG party members who say nothing thought the rest of the adventure(paper Mario, looking at you).
That's true but remember, Camilla is one of the main characters of Fates, yet ultimately doesn't end up doing much in regards to the narrative (though hinoka and sakura as well as to an extent Leo suffer the same fate), unlike most other FE games were at the very least the main cast all contribute something of value to the story, for the most part.
BLAZINGKNIGHT, true for birthright, but conquest did them all justice.
Charlotte remains one of my favourite examples of a fanservicey character not just in Fire Emblem but in all media, since her design comes off as trying too hard, which is exactly what Charlotte herself does with her fake persona. I also like how it reflects her gameplay-wise; if you're going to wear what is pretty much a bikini into battle, it's your own fault your defenses are so low.
The comment on Lyn in FE Heroes is quite funny to me, as one of my friends, getting Brave Lyn, commented on how her breasts were so large her plate could only cover one of them. Me, visualizing the Lyn from FE7, thought he was exaggerating, but after looking at the FEH version of her, yeah, it really is that way...
And since we're on the topic of tastes in 2D women, there's always Igrene from Binding Blade. Sure she doesn't look that special from her character portrait, but her official art... hot damn. For whatever reason she's always stood out to me, dunno why.
well said man, a few things though: Brave Lyn's bust is actually smaller than vanilla Lyn's. (but still larger than her original design) and her breast plate isn't armor, it's actually a piece of protection so that the bowstring doesn't snap back and hit her in the chest (though it's on her left breast and she's shooting right handed, which is backwards)
and i jut looked up igrene and yeah. wow.
I mean at least Charlotte had a REASON for how she dressed. He character and background is written quite well and as such I dont mind hed design personally too much as it makes sense at least.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Why am I not surprised that Zerk is the one to know the bust size differences between each version of Lyn. Jokes aside, great video Zerk and keep up the great work!
Well Igrene is the daughter of HotGuy-I mean Hawkeye, so her father's genetics did her appearance a lot of favors.
Personally I never minded Lyns Feh design except for the skirt being WAY too high even for her.In the intro screen(art by Kozaki) it looks like shes about to flash us.
Charlottes design fits her perfectly. She's definitely one of the best fan service characters. She entices men by being sexy because she wants to marry a rich man. I haven't played echoes yet so I can't comment on Sonya
PLAY ECHOES THEN BRUH
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 I want to but I spent all my money on a switch and a whole like 4 sketch games. My friend has echoes tho so once he beats it I'll borrow it from him
Lyndis will be always in our hearts as the kindness and pure character who introduced many of us to the Fire Emblem Series
While not my first fire emblem, I agree
A thousand blessings on that girl
Zerk. This was a very risky video for you to do and to do right you did. The argumentation was informative and neutral and not a shitfest of hate against a character or characters.
Surely i love it when you talk about critical topics always so good!
thank you!
A problem with fanservice now is that sex appeal is a very shallow means of characterizing a person. So the hatred it gets is justified I'd say. It shows lack of faith in winning a player's heart through other means...
.. which is actually reflected in the weakening of game design the series is facing nowadays.
Rinku San PREACH
A game with a nice plot and everybody has boobies sounds too good to be true.
"Nice plot"
Not really. It's kind of paper thin and filled with holes.
(There's also nothing stopping people from writing about THE ONE THING THAT AZURA KNEW ABOUT CAUSING THE PLOT.
I don't think he meant that kind of plot
I agree that Camilla's design fits her function perfectly, I just don't personally like the function. I won't bash people who do, but sexual fanservice has never grabbed my attention. Though I do think Sonya is an excellent example of how to do it right and seeing more cases of her would be beneficial in my opinion.
I completely understand, fanservice only really bothers me when it breaks tone. Sonya, staying consistent with tone is what makes her awesome IMO.
After my own heart, you are. It really sucks to be into gaming when SO many in the business consider sexual fanservice necessary... especially in JRPGs.
Can anyone point me at a franchise of that genre which HASN'T dipped its mind into the gutter? AND has good writing and characterisation...?
While I don't know if the entire franchise pulls it off (from what I've heard, the fifth game doesn't), I've heard Wild Arms 3 praised for having good characters and not being too fanservice heavy, but my time with that game has been limited, so I don't know how accurate that is.
Borjan Kosarac Pokemon is a technically a JRPG too… so there you go.
I meant "featuring humans" (and humanoid creatures) as playable characters, but... still, touche. ;-)
Is a shame that most of Camilla‘s character development you can just know it If you grind a little her supports and just a little bit is shown during the main story. But thats has always been the case in most Fire emblem games to the date. Just as an example of an older one: Nephenee in Path of Radiance, you mostly will no be able to know ANYTHING about her unless you pair up her with certain units.
Camilla is a simple but enjoyable character, no, the whole royal family of Nohr are amazing characters that are united as a family that are not related by blood something that I really enjoy. The concept of how a non-related family are more united than the Birthright one is really lovely. All of them were born from different women Garon had. Leo, Elise and Camilla their mothers never loved them, they just used them as tools to get better benefits as royals, so Camilla tries to fit that role because she cares for them, same goes for Corrin who didnt know her/his parents, because of that she doesnt want her/him to feel the loneliness she felt in her childhood.
Now I wont deny she has an excess of fanservice, just look at her cutscenes. Most people that judge Camilla for her appearance or design or call her "Thot" havent even play fates, I think the only retarded ones are the ones who bash a franchise they apparently love and tell others they're stupid for liking it. Without to mention her design is a pretty good selling point for other games.
yeah it is somewhat upsetting, as with a lot of fates, there's a lot good about her, just not at face value.
So, what you're saying is, no design is truly... thotless after all. *pained, wheezing laughter*
Also, before getting into my main points/thoughts, I gotta say, while Gaiden art was... well, art of it's time, I gotta say, the manga adaptation wasn't quite as... shall we say, conservative. The image on Celica's page for her appearance in the manga could be described as a... suspension of disbelief. *is shown out the door*
Nah, but you raise a good point about fanservice in Fire Emblem games, and how well the design choices vs aspects of their character fit. You're quite right in the idea that Ursula's design is... off, in a sense, because of the weird cleavage window in the outfit that doesn't quite match her personality. You're also kinda right in how it can be kinda similar with Kagero, in that while I COULD see her wearing that outfit as kunoichi sex appeal thing (however you wanna call it), the ass window and it only seeing use in combat does distract slightly because she doesn't seem like the kind of character to do that. It's an interesting disconnect, all in all.
Related to Fates, where a somewhat fanservice-y design works for a character without detracting from the character's other aspects, I'd say a pretty good example is Rinkah. While she certainly does show a good deal of skin (only straps covering her chest, with a bare torso otherwise), I think that it works in her favor due to her other design/characterization choices: the visible musculature draws more attention, the pose gives her an air of strength (it has that "sword planted in the ground" vibe to it), and the lack of an emphasized bust and visible cleavage doesn't draw a great deal of attention to the area. Granted, I could be overly-sympathetic to her design, but I think she's a good way to make that sort of design work.
TBH Fire Emblem has always tried to inject some level of fanservice, no matter the game - there's plenty of short skirts and the like worn by many females, busty characters and leg-showing outfits aren't anything new (For example, Vaida), but I think a part of the problem is that it's gone from... modestly realistic for a fanservice design (form-fitting outfits, showing some leg, etc) to becoming such a forceful effort at hitting all the fetish points that it trips over itself (Camilla's crotchless pants, while riding atop a Wyvern no less).
In short, I think the big issue is the overemphasis on fanservice design is what does it, where the designs place TOO much effort into the fanservice appeal that it becomes less believable and more distracting. I think that's what I mean to say, anyway...
oh yes trying too hard is definetely a problem. hence why Sony from echoes is the greatest thing ever. well said man.
Be careful though when you say realistic in relation to FE armor, since when it comes to realism, Camilla's armor is actually more accurate in functionality to real medieval armor than the vast majority of FE females (and even many males). The only parts that are poorly designed from a practical stance are the exposed breasts and high heels, but NOT the exposed crotch as real armor had little to no armor in that region since it would have restricted movement. So having an exposed crotch vs wearing pants makes no difference when in comes to protection. Camilla is also one of the few FE females to wear greaves and gauntlets, as well as armor that actually covers the abdomen (though again, the exposed breasts makes that point a bit moot).
vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/a/a7/CellicaManga.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111013013522
I mean, even the SoV Celica design is pretty ridiculous. She's meant to be a priestess, having spent much of her life being raised by those of the Mila religion, yet she bares her upper thigh and her shoulders like it's normal. I also vividly remember during the period of SoV's announcement, when leaks and the likes were happening, everyone saw her design and instantly started saying how pretty she was; it's the same kind of surface detail judgement that is a direct result of a carefully crafted character design that panders to a specific audience...it just so happens that her character doesn't fit with how much skin she shows, but since it's not as much as Camilla or Tharja, people overlook it because most don't care at all for nuance.
Something else about her design...where is the support for her dress and breastplate? There are no shoulder straps, which means all that weight is held up by her boobs and for some reason she never has to readjust it every 3 mins.
I may still not like Camilla the most, but you did raise some very good points zerk. Great video man
thank you!
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 no problem
the lack of pantsless Marth is keeping me from leaving a like on this video
The boob shaped armor is still dumb though
It must be uncomfortable as all hell.
IMO it's unrealistic and impractical, but I'm OK with that because it still looks semi-plausible, doesn't contradict anything about the characters, and doesn't break immersion. My problem with Camilla's design is that it breaks immersion. Boob armor fits in fanservice without that happening, so I'm OK with that.
Boob armor really breaks immersion imo. Armor is supposed to lead the enemy blows AWAY from your organs.let‘s take Cordelia from Awakening, her Boob armor has a large area in the middle of her chest area that leads the enemy attack directly into her Heart and Lungs. Also, if the enemy had a blunt weapon, like a Hammer, the Armor would function like a Spearhead pointing towards her body.
Benington the weird thing about boob armor in fire emblem is that some characters have it while some don't. Phila and Lucina have flat plates (assuming luci's is leather/thin armor), and Flavia and Sully both have chestplates that resemble sports bras, providing mostly flat protection while still having shape
Are they just gonna wear a big metal slab on their chest?
Sex sells, remember that.
While I don't agree with everything you say Zerk, you definitely raised good points in this video, good job!
thank you glad you enjoyed even if we don't see eye-to-eye.
Dude I've been watching your over a year now I'm so glad to see it grow
I wouldn't really consider Ursula that fanservicey, at least in fe7, sure she has a bit of cleavage and a bit of legs showing, but that the thing: a bit. Sonia on the other hand shows of a lot and is obviously the seductress, thanks to Heroes we also have an example of an often overlooked factor: how they're drawn, due to highlights in shading and the position and increased size the become a central point , the art draws you to it.
saifors that's certainly a good point. but here heroes art likely wouldn't be the way it is were it not for her original art being somewhat misleading.
Not in particular, Heroes art varies pretty greatly in how well they represent characters, Lachesis and fEst for example looking like loli moe blob, which while for the latter you could make a case because of her being the youngest whitwing, for the former it's just... no, like I have no words to describe how they represent Lachesis other than... just no.
All in all Heroes has a lot more fanservice than average in multiple ways.
Also another example is Lloyd looking like a drug addict/alcoholic.
saifors part of it is just the artists themselves.
I dislike Camilla because she was specifically written to be a sexual fanservice character. Her static personality and lack of character development certainly doesn't help me like her any more.
Me, a heterosexual female,
"I dont have such weaknesses"
Camilla has no business wearing that garbage. She was written especially in the jpn version to be more motherly and less seductive. Blame fucking Fates for throwing her character into the dumpster and making it shit. Awful. Awful character.
Her blatant obsession with Corrin fails to help her and makes her backstory contradict how she is in supports. If she was less dependent on Corrin and more dependent on others too it would be way more believable.
I would've liked if that was her casual wear, but once she was a boss or as a playable character she donned more armor to show that shit was more serious.
uh? ok? then chock that up as something fates's english version actually does better.
i explained during the sonya segment that her design is still out there, but could have had the same effect if altered slightly, (namely, just giving her pants)
and large breasts are a sign of fertility and maternity most notably IN JAPAN, her design is perfectly explainable either way.
Fanservice done wrong. It shouldn't play the big part of her like how Sonya's body is nowhere near as focused and she actually has a character. Did Sonya have her boobs to the screen? No. Did Charlotte? Nuh uh. It's literally only Camilla and that's what makes her past the limit of good fanservice.
She had nothing to flesh her out and have her character be good so it's not even a type of a character that proves there's more to them like Charlotte.
I would never take that bitch seriously in and out the game. Fuck Camilla.
Camilla's fanservice is downright tasteless with not one but two cutscenes with direct zoom ins.
I'm disgusted on how you can try to justify that
It should always be kept LOWKEY like how every female character had it going.
Horrible-Artist699 i'm well aware of that. it literally says in the video her design would have been just as effective with some alterations to her chestpiece or by giving her pants.
Nuibaba ヌイババ I won't for a second defend Camilla's portrayal in cut-scenes. what i will however defend is her portrayal outside of them. her support with Xander is great, saying she has nothing going for her is wrong. is she a good character? fuck no. is she a functional character who executes a niche? Yes.
My big problem is that some of the archetypes these characters are meant to sort of take inspiration from just got suddenly sexualized for no real reason. Camilla is meant to be a reference of Promoted Enemy Wyverns turned good like Minerva, Altena, and Miledy. Besides not being drenched in red like them, she suddenly has really sexual elements that don't fit the archetype. Nowi versus the other young Manaketes is also another example and I wonder what sexuallizing that archetype reveals of it. Xander is fine because he is sword Camus and looks and acts the role, he's not inexplicably shirtless.
Another thing is that people like subtlety and not being bluntly pandered to, it's why kids get into stuff like Minecraft or 5 Nights at Freddy's. You have to learn stuff like Java to be able to mod Minecraft and kids eat that stuff up. Also don't simple designs tend to resonate more? Characters like Pac-Man, Mario, Slime, and Sonic.
Also I'd pantless Marth, Asvel, and the FE3-FE6 dancers and maybe Fir, the first fanservice characters :P.
I always thought Scarlet was supposed to be the Minerva character. ...Does Fates have two Minervas? O_O
fair. but i think charlotte and sonya nail subtlety in their designs. even Charlotte who's design is trying WAY too hard, is a perfect reflection of her personality, also trying WAY too hard.
'
The Lyn part was explained perfect I felt like you were talk about me, I hold Lyn in a special place because she is the first unit I used and seeing how badass her critical animation is (Promoted Lyn as well) she will always be my favorite unit and I welcome any fanservice that comes her way. I also happen to have Lyn Bride Lyn and Brave Lyn and that just makes me happy
The ending sounded so tragic, it's like Lyn woke up from a coma and then started to notice how her appearance got altered from before.
Yeah, ok. I guess a character that fully embraces fanservice is better is better than one with clashing approach.
But I still think it's kind of.. bothersome when the Fanservice goes so far that the outfit doesn't make any sense. I don't know much about how to effectively make armor, but having a gap to show your bikini bottoms like Camilla or wearing no armor at all like Charlotte seems wrong to me. Could that be added into the "function" part of the triangle?
function is function from a narrative standpoint (character roles etc.) and i adress the poor realism of charlotte and camilla's designs during the sonya segment.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4
I heard that as "Sonya's outfit is on theme with sexy dark mage" rather than "Charlotte is not wearing enough clothing." But I see how that is similar. It seems like we are on more or less the same page regardless.
+ZerkMonsterHunter 4 The one that bothers me is Effie having her legs partially uncovered in Heroes, what does that add?
Remember always, the stronger the female armor, the less skin it covers.
I think it can depend on the expectations? In some games that focus more on realism, I'll be extra critical to designs and behaviors that aren't reasonable in the scenario. Fire emblem is clearly a game that focus more on artistic design than realistic design, they are fully aware of that so they can afford to do designs that don't make much sense to the scenario but effective in expressing the characters. In FE I expect clothings and armors lose their functional part of purpose and only focus on the statement purpose, so I'm less picky if the design is utility wise unreasonable.
Lucina is a fanservice character too, she reminds a lot of Marth, and he's the most overexploited lord in the franchise. Lucina is made on purpose to have Marth in the game. Adult Tiki could be another fanservice character because she's a main caracter from the first game.
I wonder how many people thought the Mizutsune theme was from birthright
I really enjoyed this. That said I need to point out that Ursula idolized Sonia and wanted to be just like her. Which means her design having so much in common with Sonia's actually reflected that part of her character.
Also as a FE veteran who voted for Lyn in the popularity contest I really enjoyed your analysis. Lyn is a character we super imposed romantic feelings for just because of how good her character was. To faith represent as she was requires good writing that couldn't be fitted into FE Heroes. That said I think they were respectfull when they gave her a modest increase in her bust. I honestly thought they slightly aged her up instead.
i've heard the Ursula/Sonya relationship thing personally i don't think there's enough subtext to make a hard and fast statement like that.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4, So you think it's a bit too forced when they mention it in the game? Honestly I can see why you would think that and respect it. Honestly that part is brought up very briefly and quickly before you fight her.
Since I played the game as a female strategist I never saw Lyndis as someone being into the main character. She was my best friend who rescued me at the start and I decided to follow her. It was very pure and nice.
Everybody's going to interpret things very differently, I've had plenty of people tell me that they think Lyn is bisexual because the dialogue doesn't change much regardless of the tactician's gender, so the romantic coding exists even for the female option. Likewise tons of people don't see any romantic coding even with the Male tactician. Everyone's different, that's what makes art... art, no interpretation or opinion is inherently more correct.
Dude. You make some amazing points and this video is just the thing I needed to see.
I gotta say I don't like that having a bust size bigger than usual means you should be a seductress. That's not how it works irl...
Gretta Esmeralda well of course not lol.
i feel like camilla is widely misunderstood. she is a Domme if people knew anything about D/s relationships they would know that when she is fawning over a character it's out of a desire to control and take dominance over that character. she has identified you as a potential pet. it's not a coincidence her head adornment has delivish horns on it. as a domme myself it pisses me off that people think she is only about sex appeal. also purple is a color that is both feminine and masculine a the same time.
You making something about fanservice being the return of a long forgotten character If I wanted fan service of that variety I would want Jake from the 1st fire emblem game to get a hero's outfit like his girlfriend Anna and I would have him be an Archer.
But... they were BOTH commanders...
TRICK QUESTION UNSUBBED
I never liked Ursula, but i think her design is really appropriate for her design and role.
She demonstrate in every conversation with sonia how obsessed she was about reach the perfection and become a morph copy.
Is only one hipotesis, but i think she is only trying to copy Sonia as best she can including clothes but still remaing the responsibilities of being a comander.
In other hand maybe is just a fanservice and my opinion really is not accurate.
btw, sorry about my english.
hey no problem your English is fine. I've heard the thought about her trying to copy Sonia before, but there just not enough evidence to really suggest that.
You brought up some good points and it was well constructed, good job. Might be my favorite video from you so far.
I mean me personally, I played both blazing sword and sacred stones until I lost my gba micro and I actually preferred the character development of many many characters in sacred stones to those in blazing sword. (might be because you actually had time to flesh out everyone's back stories and such) but I get what you're saying and I agree.
I feel like Awakening's redesign of the Dark Mage class is also fanservice done right, as the context for it is, IMO, pretty strong. The class is most associated with the nation of Plegia. The DESERT nation of Plegia. Where the sun will beat you down more than even ya boi Guzma. Going a bit skimpy with the cloth suddenly isn't a bad idea.
I would argue Tiki was the first fanservice character, but I don't want to get taken away.
whats fan service i only know what "PLOT" is.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""plot""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I always appreciate people discussing them merits of fanservice, and I think you hit a lot of the key points - it can draw people in and provide an immediate appeal, as well as provide some characterization. I think it's definitely possible to have a deep character who also provides fanservice and would say Charlotte is a great example, I don't know if I see it as much for Sonya (I think she's a good character, but her design isn't as intricately interwoven with her personality and motivations). But maybe that's just a problem of Echoes having a tiny support pool, since Sonya only gets a single support and a small amount of other dialogue.
It baffles me how much of the FE fanbase seems to hate fanservice, but I guess people have their tastes...and some hate everything that isn't to theirs.
Stan the Woz if you're interested in my further thoughts on Sonya I did an entire character breakdown on her.
glad you enjoyed the video.
Wonderful points! I definitely agree, especially about Sonya from Echoes.
Fire Emblem has always done a fabulous job with its female characters I think. For the most part, I've never even considered the "sexy" characters as fanservice cuz they always just came across as sexually confident women, who either used their looks as part of their skill set, making it important that they look attractive, or just owned it. Sexiness isn't a bad thing in characters as long there is variety so not everyone is sexy xD
My issue tho is Fates, where the female designs for the "sexy" characters don't make me think "you go girl, rock it" and instead "welp I guess the male developers wanted to ensure people buy the games so they threw in vag and ass openings in clothing ._." *Cough* Effie, Peri, Camilla and more *Cough*
Whereas the designs of Sonya, Sonia, Vaida, Petrine etc etc are an empowering sexy, Camilla for example just comes across as so ridiculous and objectified. Ass, panty and titty openings? Wtf?? Like girl, just wear a low cut top, protect your ass like what is going on here 😂😂😂
Camilla just needed pants, then her design would be 50 times better. no idea what fates's butt flap obsession was about.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 agreed 😂
ZerkMonsterHunter 4, exactly, for some reasons effie shows a full blown butt and sophi when in the promoting animation shows a buttflap, i dont get it,
And while i am at it the only problem i have with this video(although nit picky) is that the thumbnail is the same as your "marketing saved awakening " just changed cordelia with tharja and the SAO girl with camilla.
tequlia joseph best waifu
Well, I sure learned a lot, today. Thanks, Zerk! Love all your videos, mate.
hanafuda thank you!
I've discovered your videos recently, and I'm liking them. Also, this helps me to practice English listening. :D
well, glad i can help you with your second language, that's kinda cool honestly.
Great video man as always. Keep up the amazing work man. Cant wait for your next video. Seriously I love your content. You talk about stuff like this so damned well.
thank you!
As long as it makes sense in the setting ,and doesnt mess with the story im fine with it. Good job on the video zerk.
Rex Ming, also i think so long as the big breasted characters have actual personalities, not just "i have big tities" im fine, and modern FE does that great.
absolutely agreed.
(Sonya in Echoes doesn't have a namesake. She was in Gaiden before Blazing sword came out)
Also, with Lyn's dress, the slits on it make sense as she's essentially a Swordmaster, and many swordmasters, usually females, have that kind of design, like Ayra, Karla, etc. If they wore a dress that long without those, they wouldn't be as agile as they would be since they're supposed to be fast.
I cried a bit at the end..... Pretty well made video.
Sunarcher Vi Britannia glad you enjoyed.
I wonder how much of Lyn's new design would have to do with people who entered the series at FE7 aged and _inspired_ some visual "Thank you's" from the team at IS for sticking around
who knows? (maybe me)
Watching this again, with Ursula is that she idolizes Sonia, she wears what she wears in an attempt to emulate her. So I think that she makes sense (also the regal purple stuff u mentioned). As with Kagero who in my eyes has a bit much of a bust but her outfit is doing everything it can to stick to being a ninja and being lightweight. It could be better but in my eyes is not that bad.
I acknowledge your 999 reference
I acknowledge your comment.
Lyn will always be my favorite Fire Emblem character, I think, right above Roy (though mostly only because of Smash Bros, for him)
This is 3 years late vut now im looking at tge F.E Hero's new heroes events..... and oh lord Lyn is just how do you put it? Attractive and eye catching
you should uh... maybe watch the video I posted in June this year.
I liked when you played Mitzusune’s theme in the background
He played Cynthias battle music i think as well from platinum
Very well done video my friend. It's so professional that if you put it on National Geographic I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Loved the explanation of Fanservice. I always considered it sex appeal or bringing back a fan favorite. Never knew about that other stuff. Learn something new every day.
That being said, I will keep shitting on Camilla and Tharja. The only thing I care about when it comes to characters is complexity and lovability. To use Fates as an example since I 100% completed everything including supports, Takumi is easily my favorite in there. The most screen time, the most flaws, the most positive traits, and the most growth. Cue in Camilla. Motherly figure who is bloodthirsty, psychotic, and obsessive. The bad heavily outweighs the little good. Complexity may not be why she or Tharja exist but that's not going to change my scale. Their not lovable either. Arthur isn't complex at all but his goofy demeanor and good nature makes him great.
I don't want to type an essay but that's the gist of it. I will keep hating on garbage characters like Camilla and Tharja now and forevermore, even when One For All shatters every bone in my body for punching them in the face at 100%.
eh. no matter your opinion on them it's hard to deny they serve their narrative function down to the molecule. and as a writer, flow and deliberateness of detail matters a lot more to me than to some. It's hard for me to enjoy a story nowadays without picking apart every little extraneous detail.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear! I'm not denying what your saying in the video. I agree with your reasoning that they fulfill their narrative function. That's fine and dandy. Your a writer? Cool! Congratulations man! Must be why your video flowed so well. Unfortunately I'm no writer and I just wanted to share my opinion. Complexity and Lovability is all I look for. Camilla and Tharja have neither which is why their faces are kicked in atm XD. As I said, *I'm not disagreeing with you at all* bro.
that's perfectly fine, i wasn't disagreeing with you either, just trying to help contextualize my thinking.
I was apprehensive at first because of the source material, but you made an interesting video without it just talking about sex appeal. You managed to get the point across that it has to have a reason for being there to be there in the first place, and can't just be dropped in for purely fan service.
rishi thanks dude, glad you enjoyed it.
"Hector is discount Guts" Triggered, disliked, unsubbing, reported...nah, just kidding. Hector was my favorite male Lord until Ike. And I had a crush on Lyn. I agree with you on mostly everything, just two points I wanted to discuss:
1) You know female knights and paladins in Fates have thongs instead of pants in their 3D battle models. Do you think it was needed for characters like Effie or Sophie? Or more like a Kagero case? I tend to think, Kagero case. But even the female Corrin end up in a thong while ridding a fricking horse...
2) What is your opinion about Faye in Valentia? She was supposed to be fanservice...for the ladies. Having a lady villager in the all guy Ram crew. But I just hate her characterization so, so much...I am gonna drink a [B]otion.
no idea why fates units have butt flaps. never understood that design choice.
as for faye... her characterization is just so terrible.
Yeah, I know right...how to appeal to girls and make them play Fire Emblem Echoes? Add in a Yandere with no redeeming quality whatsoever. I benched Faye. But I loved the Valentia remakes so much. Alm is a much better leader than Corrin. Celica has issues but she is all right. And ALL PRAISE LORD BERKUT!
Mvci voice: Camilla was just a function :p
I would like this 100,000,000 times
Hey Zerk, I preordered the Fire Emblem Warriors special edition. Honestly, I don't care if the main represented games are Awakening and Fates. I enjoyed both... Awakening more so, Fates less so.
Full weeb: Lol dude, who's the weeb now?!
Me: I said Awakening is better than Fates. Also plowing through waves of enemies as my favorite characters is awesome!
Colton Zuspan, while at face value i dont agree with awakening being better than fates(well... AWA is better than birthright, i still consider conquest far better and have yet to play revelations).
Could you elaborate why you think that?
(For the record this is not meant as insulting, i am genuinely curious)
Daniel pintado Birthright was like Awakening.... Too much if you ask me.
Corrin is a blank slate. S/He has no personality. (Female Corrin has SOME personality, but they both suck.)
Conquest wasn't bad, but not great. People go on and on about its design, which I understand. But I think it's overrated.
*spoilers*
Where do I start with Revelation...?
True final boss? Not fleshed out enough... OR EVEN SHOWN SEVEN CHAPTERS BEFORE THE ENDGAME!!!
I HATE Corrin. With a burning passion. WAY hotter than Sigurd.
Omega Yato? OP. ...Not as OP as the Binding Blade, mind you, but still.
While Fates fixed some of Awakening's problems, I don't like Fates. For me personally, way too much "Waifu" shoved in my face.
Colton Zuspan, Didn't you say you enjoyed both of them?
Daniel pintado I enjoyed them from a gameplay perspective. Some maps had interesting mechanics. Dragon Veins, Partner Seals, Friendship Seals. I enjoyed those, but the story... Not so much.
I can sum up each game in a sentence.
Birthright: Bad guys are attacking and killing civilians, we gotta kill them back.
Conquest: Apparently, Garon isn't himself, we gotta expose him for what he really is and kill him.
Revelation: You thought it was Garon pulling the strings, BUT IT WAS I, ANANKOS!!
Corrin: hey guys, I'm a dragon... because plot reasons.
Colton Zuspan, i completely agree with you, fates... I couldn't give fuck all about the story but as a videogame, gameplay wise is probably the best in the series, also the best soundtrack.
So yeah, the story is weak, but let us not pretend awakening's story was that much better, in my opinion it goes downhill in the 2nd act and drops straight to hell in the final one.
I think Camilla's character is misunderstood to the western audience who may not be familiar with her kind of (not so uncommon) trope that exists in Japanese characters. In fact, I think a lot of stuff is lost in localisation, for a good portion of each cast.
sometimes stuff is gained as well, a lot of what defines lyn as a character is very characteristic of Western FE7 only.
One thing I should mention is that in the medieval period, a woman showing some cleavage wasn't viewed the same as it is now, so someone like Ursula showing some actually isn't that weird in the context of the setting (though I'll admit, I'm not sure about Japan during this time period). Examples like Ursula and Kagero could still work if that's normal within the setting.
That being said I still think they were designed from a fanservice perspective.
I mean, walk down the las vegas strip and you'll see tons of boobs. It ain't that hard.
huh
a video mentioning Camilla where she isn't treated with the most disdain possible
what a concept.
a refreshing change
Before watching:
The Left one is Commander
The right one is Sedectruss
Edit:WOAH I got that right and I didn’t play blazing sword.
and Lyn is a good character just the way she is.
I kinda raise an eyebrow at the "GBA Lyn was not a fanservice character" statement. First of all, how many GBA sprites have jiggle physics? Second, it could be argued that vague dialogue is intentional, that just because the developers chose not to commit to something, doesn't mean that they aren't trying to create a sort of welcome speculation. I guess I kinda feel like she's fanservice from a different time, there's a valid point that some may find her just as visually attractive as Ursula, if not moreso. The standard was different back then. Lyn is obviously not a Camilla, in fact one of the most hilarious pieces of FE fanart I ever saw was the two of them swapping outfits. But, there is a subjective element to fanservice. I, for instance, dove into Awakening full force and yet I don't find Tharja attractive (even though I do like Camilla and Ursula). A lot of people respond, visually, to a thigh goddess who has a brighter, friendlier, less intimidating design to her than Sonya or Ursula. The bright colors, long ponytail, and warm smile captivate them more than one more low cut top, that's a real thing.
Overall, love this video, love your insights, and glad to see someone calmly analyze the merits of fanservice characters.
thank you glad you enjoyed the video!
here's a slightly better explanation on my thoughts about Lyn becoming a fanservice character over time, as opposed to her inception.
In my opinion, saying Lyn is fanservice is like saying Celica or Eirika are fanservice characters.
Lyn became fanservice because she's become iconic. as I said in the video sexual themes become fanservice when they are directed at the audience. the vague writing between her and the tactician is pure, and has no sexual undertones, unlike say, her A support with Rath. Lyn was never outwordly presented as sexy to the audience this until heroes, therefore she became fanservice. yes she's pretty and has a nice frame, but so do most female characters in this series. Camilla, Sonya, Charlotte and Kagero are exceptions, Lyn isn't. Lyn is part of the status quo.
Well, my perception is a little skewed because I didn't get into FE until Path of Radiance, so I have little to no appreciation for Lyn's character beyond what I've seen in analysis videos (and obviously that's second hand), and the tiny morsels that Awakening, Smash, and Heroes throw us. So I'm looking at her visual design in a relative vacuum, and also not subject to the in-game portraits that only show her from the waist up.
While it is common for female characters to show a bit of skin here and there, Lyn seem to take it a bit further than the average for her time. Her design is simple enough in a neutral stance, but seems to deliberately accent her physique when she is preparing a strike on the GBA game cover art (Heroes widened the gap in her neutral stance but her attack art doesn't look that different, bust size aside). I look at Lyn, and when I compare her visually to female Myrmidons like Mia or Athena, there's a pretty clear difference, just as much as there is between Lyn and the more over-the-top fanservice characters of Awakening and beyond. She's kind of the middle ground between the two, but again, she comes from an era that predates the latter, and she is very clearly designed to draw the audience's eye when you look at her in that context. If the fanservice label is being applied to her retroactively, I would argue there is a sound logic to it, because she is about as fanservicey as the series got at that time, and I'm sure that among other things did contribute to her becoming so iconic as to eclipse the likes of Elincia and Caeda.
To be clear, none of that says she is an avatar-sexual character. I actually agree with you on that point, nothing convinces me she was ever into Mark that way. I kind of instinctively walked into devil's advocate territory when I commented on vagueness.
Hypershell her design is actually pretty standard given her time and class. look at Karla, Marisa, Vaida, Igrene, Tethys, they all hail from the GBA era and show just as much, and in some cases more skin, with some of them having more outwardly sexual personalities as well.
out of context, I can see where you're coming from.
I reccomend giving FE7 a play through some time.
Well Expressed Zerk! I feel like there might be some weak parts in your logic but I notice the thought you put into it. Ultimately I think your analysis on character design and concepts at least warrants a listen.
thank you, glad you enjoyed!
While I disagree with using the term "Namesake" when referring to Sonya (as she is just a character redesign of an FE2 character with the same name, therefore was not named after FE7 Sonia, thus rendering the definition of the term "namesake" false in this context) -
Outside of that pedantic argument, good video, very well thought-out. Certain points are hit or miss I guess but I see and agree with the general argument.
It's like I'm following two (or more) meanings of "fanservice", because of my "cultural trip with the internet" or such, and, compatibly with what you said:
"Easter eggs, fan-favorite characters returning from the dead, items and catchphrases" is what I see how the Brazilian geek community around me (who accompanies Star Wars, Marvel and DC series, anything that's trending in Netflix, those things) sees "fanservice"
"Use of sex or sexual themes to entice the audience" is what I see how the English-speaking people that I see in the internet who observe the repercussion of Japanese games sees "fanservice"
So, it's kind of a divided matter for me
everything I mentioned are aspects of it in a broad sense, not separate entities.
apples and oranges are very different, but they're both fruit.
My thousand apologies for my non-specific comment, I was just passing by in your channel and wanted to comment quickly to not to waste time. I did not had the intention to "change the facts", I just wanted to comment about my particular view of the "fanservice" term and how I see it being treated so differently (that's sorta why I started my comment with "It's like")
great, great video
so you decided to make me cry with that segment from lyn's story arc's ending, huh?
btw, i agree with everything you said, but honestly, i prefere the "owain" kind of fanservice
all the references to the past titles were just hilarious!
from my point of view, i can't really that sonia was fanservice, because the sprites were too small to reveal something
the first fanservice character, for me, is petrine, but since she's almost completely covered, it's not that "fanservice-y" either
but hey, she has boobs, and you can clearly see them in PoR
-and oliver, god i love oliver-
i'd have mentioned petrine, but she never really had the same impact on me as other FE characters. she just isn't particularly memorable or interesting, as a result i could never figure out if her design was justified or not.
when you put pokemon battle music in a fe vid
i do that a lot lol.
finally, Camilla justice! 💜🖤
All this talk about how Lyn was portrayed by the fans is making me exited for a Blazing Sword remake. I always felt like their relationship was stuck in like this wierd grey area between romantic and not romantic. That's probably my interpretation though.
yeah it is in astrange grey area. i feel like in a blazing sword remake Lyn x Mark's popularity will completely blow past Lyn x hector and Lyn x rath
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Mark is the player, their gender,name, detailed personality and background are all up to the player ( though a warrior's conversation reveals that they are a bit aloof, and in game care about their friends). One of my friends for example ship Mark x Hector. For me though Mark is a young female teen, a bit aloof and has no romantic interest ( probably because I have no interest in a romantic relationship). How do you usually portray Mark? (I'm curious)
+ZerkMonsterHunter 4: Given Bridal Lyn's Lvl 40 dialogue in Heroes, it's unlikely that I.S. would end up pushing Mark/Lyn. If anything, I see them more likely to add a playable Nomad named Nadine in FE7 than to push Mark/Lyn
Very well structured video
Rkader GT thank you!
Well I got the question about which one is the seductress right.
The lady on the left looks fashionable, which would make sense for a mercenary leader.
Tharja has the sexiest design end of story.
i think ursula's desing does work because in the game sonia influences her to the point where ursula wishes to be exactly like sonia so it makes sense the way she dresses and looks for story reasons
TheGameDomeGuy my issue with that is that that information is never directly communicated
In my opinion, shadow of Valentina has the coolest character design in all the series. Just looking at alm's armour or Faye's clothing shows a lot of character while not feeling unrealistic or over the top, like many character designs in the series (by the way, I'm mainly talking about their appearances in heroes, since I have not played the original games)
it is really great character design. If you have the spare cash kicking around I really recommend giving echoes a shot.
thank you for saying the real meaning of fan service. i am tired of explaining it to other people..
Not bad at all Zerk.
For me fanservice is when I see my favorite character in a totally different game or a bunch of characters I like who don't go together but end up doing so. Examples of these include Smash Bros or I don't know if you heard of the game series Project x Zone or even with the FE series in a few games seeing characters return like the Whitewings from Shadow Dragon to Echoes or Tiki from Shadow Dragon to Awakening much older.
FE Heroes was my love letter for fanservice for the FE series. Seeing characters come together in teams you wouldn't think possible. Awakening tried to do this and while it was fun, it really felt out of place since the character models were not them, it was the Robin's part put together to try and emulate the characters. Heroes though looking weird for the first time, their model here at least matches the art given to them.
Boy that was long anyways great video.
thank you, glad you enjoyed.
I was ready to hear an incredibly opinionated video but instead I found this video surprisingly educational. I already know all about fanservice done right (which I still find to very subjective) but your analysis Lyn's fanservice is incredibly enlightening.
I hope you do a video about Lyn in the near future & explore the relationship/impact she has on the players.
AgentKyo why thank you! I tried to look at things based on writing and character design so I could really dive into the subject. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I'll do a Lyn analysis some time in the future for sure.
You raised some good points, and despite Camilla and Tharja never really sticked out to me, They actually did a greater job than blazing sword Sonia in popularity alone and alas we never saw Camilla in a succubus costume due to I can probably guess too many people bashing Fates
Perhaps I see things differently to other people, or maybe I'm missing something. I've never really seen breasts and thighs as "Fan service." At least, not immediately. As you said, camera angles can do a lot, and it's the camera angles combined with things like Camilla's size and lack of pants that calls the ideas of fan service in.
As such, I've never seen Ursula, Lyn or even Sonya as fan service. A bit of thigh and a slightly exposed cleavage is not exactly uncommon, and I honestly never looked at those design choices as anything other than just what the character happens to wear.
Maybe it's as you said, the term fan service has been morphed to basically refer to sexily women that I just don't see it anymore unless it is rather obvious. When Echoes came out, people immediately mentioned how it's still got some fan service, and all I could think was "What, cause they show a bit of skin? Ok..."
Is there something wrong with me? Or do I just see things different to everyone?
in truth the term has gotten really watered down. part of it is misuse, part of it is the influx of anime starting to enter the mainstream, but fanservice has lost a lot of its meaning. so you're not wierd. you're just behind the times is all.
Gee thanks XD Think I'd prefer to be weird.
Nah jk, it's a non issue. Still, the fan service schitck has lost its meaning
When a friend of mine Told me about fire emblem and told me about the female characters
I fell in love with Camilla
I am not ashamed to admit that
Insightful video but tbh the beginning comparison between Ursula and Sonia felt kind of redundant since their poses telegraph the characteristics you asked to identify (respected commander vs seductive)
their poses are the dead giveaway sadly. if Sonia had Heroes art I wouldve used that. (seeing as ursula's heroes art is pretty provocative)
When you talk about character design and fan service some of it makes sense but not all. It’s mainly the part about what makes a character good fan service. Other than that though I understand everything else and the video is great.
This was a very well done video, zerk. Excellent points on lyn's emergance into the fan service world and how camilla and charolette are designed with that in mind. But, as with all great videos that I find, through all the examples and visual editing, I always lose track. By the end of the video, I can't answer the question in the title. Is it that the newer designs flow with the character's personality and function, or am I missing something?
Lord Tullus 9 [Puffy Sprinkles] you understand correctly.
The background music... was I the only one who caught that? Cynthia champion battle music xd
good ear.
I really like Ursalas design. I don't think a more revealing design makes a character worse even if it's not tied to their story. Why can't a character be interesting but also dress "fanservisely" just because she/he likes the way it looks.
Slufffy Gamer if the character likes they way they dress and ACKNOWLEDGES it that is in game justification
@@ZerkMonsterHunter I think a woman has the right to wear what they want without acknowledging it, that doesn't make it right to say they are doing it for attention. Try that argument against a real woman and see how weird that is.
If you ask me the major thing about Lyn being a fanservice-y type character might have to do with how her legs are shown through the openings in her-I wanna say tunic?-Which is admittedly understandable in some cases because they are admittedly nice legs. So all you have to do to fix the problem would be to cover them up like they do in FE Heros by making her wear pants. Thus removing the appearance and fixing the problem of her coming off as Fanservice. But then again that's just my opinion.
As i said, as a huge Lyn fanboy myself i'm glad to see her get some attention,even if it's for the reason i usually seek out fan art.
You raise a lot of good points and I'm glad someone's done this! But please, breathe a little, lol
i get very passionate, and i like long takes.
Sonya (Echoes) is one of my favorite characters in the franchise for the reasons in the video. A perfect balance of design, personality, and functionality.
SlimJimGames if you're curious, I did a full character breakdown of her.
it's called: "Sonya: A comprehensive analysis"
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Sounds interesting, I'll be sure to check it out
Why is the over the top sexual type of fan service being put in fire emblem, a game that really doesn’t need this type of this fan service. Focus on the characters story and personality should come first and not the size of their tits. It seems like they designed Camilla first then said “fuck it, make her the sex appeal”. The way you describe her as a motherly figure is very much your own opinion where as I see her as a character they threw into the fates trailer to try to sell copies of the game to the “weeb” demographic which is mainly older males interested in busty anime characters, this can be said about Elise and Sakura as well with them being 'jump the shark' little girl characters. So now, how does this fit into the build of fire emblem at its core as a game being a fantasy war simulator?
This is really well thought out actually. Enjoyed watching better at 1.25 speed tho
there are several reasons I deliberately talk slowly, one is that I have a stutter, and speeding it up while I edit also makes it sound unnatural to me.
I also think speaking slower helps me announciate better.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 That's totally fair.
I don't think breast/hips size should be taken into account. So what if it doesn't fit? Unline their clothes, the character can't do anything about it. I find it more interesting when the body is chosen randomly than when it's created specially with a personnality in mind. (it's overall a nice video but that part kinda bugged me)
TrefleV it's from a writing standpoint, a character shouldn't be made sexy unless it feeds into their character.
look up the concept of "Checkov's Gun"
otherwise, glad you enjoyed.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Chekov's gun makes writing and reading (or playing, whatever) much less fun though. People that are sexy for no reason other than that they're born this way exist, so I don't see why they can't be represented? I mean, no one analyses hair colour. I get your point, but I still don't really agree, since it's based on a writing rule I dislike ^^'
TrefleV I understand it's not reflecting realism, but writing with deliberateness in mind is very important.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Depends on the writer, I guess. Your opinion is really interesting though!