I had the exact same problem in my mid-70s vibrolux reverb. I couldn’t figure out why it was extra splashy and sensitive to just walking around the room compared to all of my other amps with spring reverb. Every other reverb failure had to do with connections or the reverb circuit. After going through everything in the circuit, I finally stumbled onto a forum posting about the spring sag and bit the bullet and replaced the tank. You’re absolutely right about the new tanks. Thanks for highlighting this failure mode!
Very cool. I always thought there were only 2 kinds of reverb. One kind works and one kind doesn't. I definitely learned something today Lyle thank you for the lesson
I think Lyle's comment on "tuning the reverb send circuit and recovery to taste" is spot on. Much easier than finessing with springs. Fender's PR and "ultralinear pro reverb" schematics both show 0.002 mfd parallel the 220k reverb recovery grid leak. That cap shunts the tank output and may be reduced to brighten the tone. The UL pro reverb 12AT7 driver has a 560 pf between grid and plate that might also be tuned -- although I wouldn't without a scope.
My ‘74 DR has the reverb sizzle issue, especially when I hit bass notes. Looks like it’s time for a new tank, unfortunately. As always, thanks for your help, Lyle.
Lyle, have you tried one of the new “custom” reverb tanks that Surfy Bear is having made? I’d be very interested to know if these are much closer in tone and decay length to the classic fender tanks.
It's probably the closest I've come to the pan I have in a vintage 6G15. They did a good job on it. It's not quite as drippy and has a bit more top end than a good vintage Accutronics or Gibbs, but there's really nothing else made nowadays that gets in the ballpark as the Surfy pan. I'd say it's about 80% there.
I just bought a short decay MOD to try for the first time and it is still longer and darker with more low frequency content than the two 60's Gibbs tanks I have. Its definitely the best sounding MOD tank I've tried but still not nearly as pleasing to listen to, especially in a Tube Reverb or Surfy Bear unit.
Lyle, so when a customer comes in off their world tour bus and they say "Put some sizzle on the reverb" Don't just parts swap out for the mod tank huh? BIg fan, thanks
Are the *short* sub-suspension springs and additional unused holes on the outer shell strictly for adjusting the position of the inner reverb assembly, or do they also allow for tuning the tank resonance to minimize microphonic behavior and feedback? I've seen vintage reverb tanks where the inner chassie that contains the transducers and reverb springs is hanging so low, presumably due to stretching of the short little suspension springs, that the reverb springs ---- also possibly stretched and saggy, like myself! ---- touch the bag or the bottom of the cabinet (at this point in time, many amps are missing the cardboard spacer/riser underneath, or perhaps one was never installed at the factory). Can you just stretch those short springs to a different set of holes and thereby raise up the suspended part of the reverse tank so it doesn't rub or contact anything, or does that appreciably change the resonant frequency range at which it operates, or exacerbate feedback?
I just tried an Accutronics 3 spring medium decay tank in my '65 PRRI and it still has way too long of a decay. I am going to try a Mod 8AB1A1B, Short Decay, 3-Spring and hope it comes in around 2 seconds. The original Ruby that came with the amp is supposed to be short decay and it's crazy long.
Especially if you amp is a clone, not a vintage gem, it is often very simple to add a on-off-on or rotary switch to change the coupling cap value of the reverb driver stage input line. I normally use good quality 630V styroflex caps which give for example 270pF, 700pF and 1930 pF using on-off-on switch to parallel connect 2 of those caps if wanted. That's all you need to get the amount of low end to the driver stage that sounds best.
Hello, I have a question about the tank units, I have seen them with that closed cell foam strip on the top and cardboard base sometimes with wood strips glued on the cardboard and the reverb bolted on the strips. Is this how Fender did it back in the day? thank you for your time.....
Let me pick your brain for a minute. Back in the 80's I owned a second hand '64 Princeton Reverb. It had the most Glorious Reverb I have ever found in a Fender amp. This thing was like swimming in the ocean Reverb. And like a fool I sold it, never to find this kind of reverb in an amp again. Someone suggested that the springs may have come out of a Hammond Organ. Any thoughts on this or do you think that there are any products on the market today that would give me what I'm looking for other than a standalone Reverb Tank?
Given hourly labor and the fragility of the spring connections on the transducers, fixing is often not worth it. I have another old Accutronics here with bad transducers. I'm going to try to swap out the springs, but there's no guarantee of success.
@@lager9342, yes I, second that motion, Lyle! I have a collection of various reverb tanks here with bad transducers on one end, and would love to drill out the rivets and pair up the remaining good transducers to make working reverb tanks, but I don't know how well the springs hold up when you try to do this. I read somewhere that the little hooks that come out of the transducers and hook to the springs are actually magnetized, as opposed to building the magnet into the transducers assembly, and if you break those little hooks, the transducer is toast. ( Although, it appears as if you could heat the solder at the rear of the brass tube, and the broken-off hook would pull out of it, but what to replace it with?)
Hello. I have a Harley Benton GA5 guitar amp into which I would like to build in a spring reverb. Which I'll take from an old Laney PL50 Reverb Can you tell me where to attach it according to the diagram? I want to build it into the body and mix in the sound of reverb.
It’s usually the connections. Had the problem in my boogie, I stripped and resoldered and mine is fine. How much do you want for it? It’s junk right? I’ll buy it..
So you're saying that when you use a different type of reverb tank you have to adjust the Reverb Drivers RC networks values and the Receiving RC networks to TUNE IN the reverbs Passing frequencies and to Block certain frequencies from the reverb feedbacking or overtones?
yes he said that and IMHO makes a lot of sense, it´s easy to tinker with caps values to shave some low and low mid´s send to the tank , than try to find old tanks that are expensive, used in combos so they´re worn or damaged like the one he shoes at the beggining of the video. some caps and resistor we are taking 1 buck.
My 3 approximately 7 inch spring ACCUTRONICS unit is hard wired with a bare ground on each terminal along with a red wire at the input and black and ground at output. What is this thing? Zero electronics, made in Cary Illinois USA. I understood it is a reverb unit, that's why I salvaged it. I would like to incorporate td e it at least for novelty/Halloween broadcast if nothing else.
as long as they are the same length, yes. however changes in wire gauge, coil diameter, material, and total mass will all affect the tone of the reverb.
Some of the older tanks had a spring lock, and damaged springs is why these tanks had the locks, were mounted on rubber grommets and stuck into bags. The new tanks all kind of suck. None of them are even close to sounding as good as a Gibbs/Folded Line or a Accutronics and their consistency is all over the map. I have taken to using my own digital reverb using something like "The Spin Chip". I think the people who started MXR way back when went on to make The Spin Chip.
I’ve seen amps from ’64 with perfect tanks and amps from ‘80 with shot tanks, vise versa and everything in between. I would put regular use on top of the list of reasons why they wear out. The constant stretching and compression of springs is what wears them out. A drop hard enough to damage the tank, while installed in the cabinet, would also damage the cabinet. Good thing is not everyone likes reverb, especially surf music levels. You still have a chance of finding good old tanks.
@@matthewf1979 , Most organs, and "tone cabinets" (powered speaker cabinets that are designed for use with organs) have pan-lock brackets to lock the reverb mechanism and springs in place place when the amp is being transported. Unfortunately, you rarely see this done on guitar amp reverb tanks.
I always found it odd that people so much time on tubes and speakers but rarely talk about tanks in terms of the resulting sound. Some models definitely sound better than others. Less tinny. More room-like. Sometimes 3 springs sound worse than 2.
Ya i can hear that chatter, ,, twenty seconds after the note was struck even , , damn! Sure ,I like a dab of reverb sometimes but eww . Is it that common in old tanks ?
If you play surf, indie or 60s music tanks and plate reverbs are essential..I run a real spring in the loop and I'm building a real plate for my little studio..
![[UA] NAVI vs MOUZ | BO5 | IEM Rio 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CMBYk0cbGoA/mqdefault.jpg)
I had the exact same problem in my mid-70s vibrolux reverb. I couldn’t figure out why it was extra splashy and sensitive to just walking around the room compared to all of my other amps with spring reverb. Every other reverb failure had to do with connections or the reverb circuit. After going through everything in the circuit, I finally stumbled onto a forum posting about the spring sag and bit the bullet and replaced the tank. You’re absolutely right about the new tanks. Thanks for highlighting this failure mode!
Very cool. I always thought there were only 2 kinds of reverb. One kind works and one kind doesn't. I definitely learned something today Lyle thank you for the lesson
I still have an original Hammond-Gibbs tank from the early 60s. Pure surf wetness.
I think Lyle's comment on "tuning the reverb send circuit and recovery to taste" is spot on. Much easier than finessing with springs. Fender's PR and "ultralinear pro reverb" schematics both show 0.002 mfd parallel the 220k reverb recovery grid leak. That cap shunts the tank output and may be reduced to brighten the tone. The UL pro reverb 12AT7 driver has a 560 pf between grid and plate that might also be tuned -- although I wouldn't without a scope.
Nifty. I've just shortened them for exactly that reason & was hard pressed to tell a difference, with no mods.
My ‘74 DR has the reverb sizzle issue, especially when I hit bass notes. Looks like it’s time for a new tank, unfortunately. As always, thanks for your help, Lyle.
Lyle, have you tried one of the new “custom” reverb tanks that Surfy Bear is having made?
I’d be very interested to know if these are much closer in tone and decay length to the classic fender tanks.
Just got one with my surfy bear metal, very nice smooth sound
It's probably the closest I've come to the pan I have in a vintage 6G15. They did a good job on it. It's not quite as drippy and has a bit more top end than a good vintage Accutronics or Gibbs, but there's really nothing else made nowadays that gets in the ballpark as the Surfy pan. I'd say it's about 80% there.
I just bought a short decay MOD to try for the first time and it is still longer and darker with more low frequency content than the two 60's Gibbs tanks I have. Its definitely the best sounding MOD tank I've tried but still not nearly as pleasing to listen to, especially in a Tube Reverb or Surfy Bear unit.
Lyle, so when a customer comes in off their world tour bus and they say "Put some sizzle on the reverb" Don't just parts swap out for the mod tank huh? BIg fan, thanks
Just a trick. U can zip tie to make the springs tighter
Thx for the in depth review
Are the *short* sub-suspension springs and additional unused holes on the outer shell strictly for adjusting the position of the inner reverb assembly, or do they also allow for tuning the tank resonance to minimize microphonic behavior and feedback? I've seen vintage reverb tanks where the inner chassie that contains the transducers and reverb springs is hanging so low, presumably due to stretching of the short little suspension springs, that the reverb springs ---- also possibly stretched and saggy, like myself! ---- touch the bag or the bottom of the cabinet (at this point in time, many amps are missing the cardboard spacer/riser underneath, or perhaps one was never installed at the factory). Can you just stretch those short springs to a different set of holes and thereby raise up the suspended part of the reverse tank so it doesn't rub or contact anything, or does that appreciably change the resonant frequency range at which it operates, or exacerbate feedback?
Wondered about that myself
I just tried an Accutronics 3 spring medium decay tank in my '65 PRRI and it still has way too long of a decay. I am going to try a Mod 8AB1A1B, Short Decay, 3-Spring and hope it comes in around 2 seconds. The original Ruby that came with the amp is supposed to be short decay and it's crazy long.
Spring replacement as a possibility?
I does have a sweet sound.
Or possibly shortening the series-pair spring that is loose and saggy?.
Especially if you amp is a clone, not a vintage gem, it is often very simple to add a on-off-on or rotary switch to change the coupling cap value of the reverb driver stage input line. I normally use good quality 630V styroflex caps which give for example 270pF, 700pF and 1930 pF using on-off-on switch to parallel connect 2 of those caps if wanted. That's all you need to get the amount of low end to the driver stage that sounds best.
Hello, I have a question about the tank units, I have seen them with that closed cell foam strip on the top and cardboard base sometimes with wood strips glued on the cardboard and the reverb bolted on the strips. Is this how Fender did it back in the day? thank you for your time.....
Let me pick your brain for a minute. Back in the 80's I owned a second hand '64 Princeton Reverb. It had the most Glorious Reverb I have ever found in a Fender amp. This thing was like swimming in the ocean Reverb. And like a fool I sold it, never to find this kind of reverb in an amp again. Someone suggested that the springs may have come out of a Hammond Organ. Any thoughts on this or do you think that there are any products on the market today that would give me what I'm looking for other than a standalone Reverb Tank?
I am surprised that these tanks are not repairable. Is it simply too expensive to fix vs just replace?
Given hourly labor and the fragility of the spring connections on the transducers, fixing is often not worth it.
I have another old Accutronics here with bad transducers. I'm going to try to swap out the springs, but there's no guarantee of success.
@@PsionicAudio Can you make a video on when you are trying to swap out the springs? It would be most interesting!
@@lager9342, yes I, second that motion, Lyle! I have a collection of various reverb tanks here with bad transducers on one end, and would love to drill out the rivets and pair up the remaining good transducers to make working reverb tanks, but I don't know how well the springs hold up when you try to do this. I read somewhere that the little hooks that come out of the transducers and hook to the springs are actually magnetized, as opposed to building the magnet into the transducers assembly, and if you break those little hooks, the transducer is toast. ( Although, it appears as if you could heat the solder at the rear of the brass tube, and the broken-off hook would pull out of it, but what to replace it with?)
Could we just replace the springs in the old tank with springs from a new one?
Worst case if the customer doesn’t want to replace the tank is you can tune the frequency response of the reverb signal.
Hello. I have a Harley Benton GA5 guitar amp into which I would like to build in a spring reverb. Which I'll take from an old Laney PL50 Reverb
Can you tell me where to attach it according to the diagram? I want to build it into the body and mix in the sound of reverb.
Good to know which tanks are good. Which circuit designs are good to go with them? Any good stand alone reverb units? Thanks!
I think it's grate buddy
It’s usually the connections. Had the problem in my boogie, I stripped and resoldered and mine is fine. How much do you want for it? It’s junk right? I’ll buy it..
Did you actually watch? It's not the connections.
What happens if you tighten the spring?
So you're saying that when you use a different type of reverb tank you have to adjust the Reverb Drivers RC networks values and the Receiving RC networks to TUNE IN the reverbs Passing frequencies and to Block certain frequencies from the reverb feedbacking or overtones?
yes he said that and IMHO makes a lot of sense, it´s easy to tinker with caps values to shave some low and low mid´s send to the tank , than try to find old tanks that are expensive, used in combos so they´re worn or damaged like the one he shoes at the beggining of the video. some caps and resistor we are taking 1 buck.
My 3 approximately 7 inch spring ACCUTRONICS unit is hard wired with a bare ground on each terminal along with a red wire at the input and black and ground at output.
What is this thing? Zero electronics, made in Cary Illinois USA.
I understood it is a reverb unit, that's why I salvaged it. I would like to incorporate td e it at least for novelty/Halloween broadcast if nothing else.
Would it be possible to cannibalize springs from a newer tank to replace the weak ones in the vintage tank?
as long as they are the same length, yes. however changes in wire gauge, coil diameter, material, and total mass will all affect the tone of the reverb.
So, have you ever tried shortening the stretched out springs and repairing the old tanks? What are the odds of success?
You don't want to shorten the springs.
But watch in the coming days for a reverb tank guts transplant.
is it possible to get a set of replacement springs?
Some of the older tanks had a spring lock, and damaged springs is why these tanks had the locks, were mounted on rubber grommets and stuck into bags. The new tanks all kind of suck. None of them are even close to sounding as good as a Gibbs/Folded Line or a Accutronics and their consistency is all over the map. I have taken to using my own digital reverb using something like "The Spin Chip". I think the people who started MXR way back when went on to make The Spin Chip.
The legend Keith Barr developed the FV-1 and my original Midiverb. He was like the Steve Wozniak of digital reverb.
american chinesium rca cables > ?
Why do reverbs wear out? Is it because people drop their amps a lot?
I’ve seen amps from ’64 with perfect tanks and amps from ‘80 with shot tanks, vise versa and everything in between.
I would put regular use on top of the list of reasons why they wear out. The constant stretching and compression of springs is what wears them out.
A drop hard enough to damage the tank, while installed in the cabinet, would also damage the cabinet. Good thing is not everyone likes reverb, especially surf music levels. You still have a chance of finding good old tanks.
@@matthewf1979 , Most organs, and "tone cabinets" (powered speaker cabinets that are designed for use with organs) have pan-lock brackets to lock the reverb mechanism and springs in place place when the amp is being transported. Unfortunately, you rarely see this done on guitar amp reverb tanks.
I always found it odd that people so much time on tubes and speakers but rarely talk about tanks in terms of the resulting sound. Some models definitely sound better than others. Less tinny. More room-like. Sometimes 3 springs sound worse than 2.
Ya i can hear that chatter, ,, twenty seconds after the note was struck even , , damn!
Sure ,I like a dab of reverb sometimes but eww . Is it that common in old tanks ?
I would just replace the spring. That old tank sounds better.
How do you replace the spring? Is it just the solder at the end holding it in place?
At about 6:02 did you say "all that fuckin stuff!" ??? 😂
Out of curiosity I played that section. I said “all that fun stuff.”
@@PsionicAudio how do I enlist your services, if/when necessary? I'm near Nashville in Columbia, TN
Love your channel!
Regatds
Too bad you can't just change the springs
U will never get that sound from a pedal. Listen to a ,,YES. Song. Or. Like old ELO. They have that ending pichy sound
I wish my reverb box sound u have don't f with it
I rip the ranks out of my amps. I have never found any use for reverb when playing live. Seems pointless.
If you play surf, indie or 60s music tanks and plate reverbs are essential..I run a real spring in the loop and I'm building a real plate for my little studio..
Thank you. That was very helpful.
Heighth? Seriously?
You understood so it's effective, no longer than height. The problem is within you.