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Rebuilding My Diy Micro Hydro Turbine (Bearings failed)
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- Опубліковано 21 лют 2019
- I did a video a while back that showed the my turbine was having trouble with worn bearings. in this video we take it all apart and work out the cause.
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Some really good information in here, thank you all for taking the time to write it. im reading them all but cant reply to all of them. im going to talk with the company that makes them and pass some ideas across. Thank you all
Hi Kris great channel and video content keep up the great work.
After a bit of info on how and where you found your property ie internet, papers estate agents so other like minded people can know where to start on there own off grid adventures cheers.
You've talked about a horizontal setup reducing the water pressure on the seal but what about the stress on the bearings? Right now the most friction happens around the bottom part of the bearings from the water hitting the turbine and gravity pulling the parts down I imagine. (I'm not an engineer or physicist)
If you install it horizontally the weight should spread evenly all around the bearings instead of just one part which only leaves the water pressure on the turbine producing stress and thus decrease wear and tear.
Opening the bearings to change the grease to one that has better hydrophobic properties might help in keeping the water out or at least prevent the grease from being washed out.
Also thicker grease may take some of the power output but will make the bearings last longer. (Like the grease from joint shafts in cars)
Kris, did you get the Email and comment about the diesel generator. if you want it please get in touch....
grate videos
This tool handles inside and outside snap rings with straight and right angle heads. www.harborfreight.com/snap-ring-pliers-with-interchangeable-heads-63845.html
When you install bearings it's critical to apply pressure to the race that is going over the shaft. If you just apply pressure as done in this video, you're using the balls and the races to press the bearing on the shaft. In this case using a thin(ish) walled tube that just fits over the shaft but presses on the inner race would be the way to go, often a deep socket or just some pipe will work. Literally hammering on the inner race is better than pressing from the outer. I realize this is old, but maybe someone will see this comment and it saves them some trouble.
Make sure you research what the max speed of your bearing is. Some start failing at 2400 rpm or higher. High Speed bearings are available. 😊
You need to have a slinger ring between the plate and turbine. The ring is clamped to the shift and spins at the same speen as the wheel, and sits right up next to the plate and spin which casues the water from traveling alone the shift.
You may contemplate adding a weeping hole in the middle plate between motor and the peloton wheel housing. That way any water that gets to the seal has a place to go instead of being pressurized through the seal.
A weeper hole would also help prevent the water from getting sucked through the seal as the bearings cool off when you shut it off. Also perhaps adding a grease fitting so you can periodically flush the water out with fresh grease. Would have to use open bearings for this.
A very good suggestion in deed. The bearings themselves are sealed, so that should work.
Dito!
There would be no issues, if he had used washing machine direct drive motor, it already comes with all seals and bearing and it's easy to find.
We're can I buy this
Hi Kris, I'm a turbomachinery engineer in Brazil. Have two suggestions for your specific machine, probably someone will suggest it too but I couldn't read all the comments. First is to machine the front bearing case (between motor and rotor) to accept a applicable double row angular contact bearing (its easy to find the dimensions in the SKF online catalog), you will probably have to take 1 to 2mm in the diameter and 10 mm in the axial stop. Second is to insert a vacuum moist takeoff point outside of the seal. It can be made just by a axial hole in your front plate, installing small copper tubes by brazing. For vacuum generation you can collect part of the aduction water and use a water venturi siffon. A 500mm height should provide the vacuum for your application.
Hi can u please message me I'm trying build a hydro generator iff grid I'd live some information and answer's to some questions
I had a similar problem with a cheap turbine I fixed for someone and videoed it. The bearings are too close together so that any slight wear creates sufficient movement to wear the seal and allow ingress. The other problem I had was that the bearings needed end loading through a spacer between the them to lock them in place between the rotor and the drive flange. In this case this is not shown and so bearings can start to slip on the shaft and create shaft wear. On the Proven turbine (though much larger) the bearings are about 18" apart. Solution maybe an intermediate shaft between the pelton wheel and the generator to move it away from the wet bits, but overall the rear bearing needs to be outside the rotor to create sufficient gap, cheers
@ 13:33 Safety squints engaged.
Love it when Uncle Bumblefuk shows up in other videos.
Kris in my opinion that little Pelton generator has exceeded expectations, you mentioned 5,000 hours (208 days) without any maintenance? Then with £20 quids worth of bearings and a couple of hours of work it is running that is pretty awesome. In the future never replace bearings without replacing the seals! It lives in a hostile environment for mild steel and electricity, I would consider putting a floor in the generator house to try to get it as dry as possible. If you are worried about water creeping along the shaft from the wheel to the generator you can put a thrower ring on the shaft, there are lots of way that you could optimise that design, but it would cost a lot more. Get some cir clip pliers and a bearing puller, servicing water pumps with the right tools is a breese, it looks like if you look after it it will look after you in 5 years time who knows what you will be up to. #topjob
Correct answer. Thrower/flinger ring.
Yep thirded.. lol
I'm 99% sure that seal is a standard part. Look at the numbers on it. You can get different grades of 'rubber' for different applications. Also you forgot to show the most important part. Inspect the surface the seal rides on. If it's worn there are at least two ways to fix it. Shim the seal or grind the rim so it doesnt ride on the same surface (cowboy fix), or turn down the axle and install a stainless wear surface, (proper job). High quality pumps come with this from the factory, like Fram pumps.
Btw, nice spanner. Never seen those before.
Kris high pressure water will always find a way in !
Put a weep hole / slot between the turbine housing & the generator .
So giving water a non-destructive path out of the unit .
PS That water pump type shaft seal is shot .
A stainless steel sleeved shaft will be a good upgrade so rust will not eat into the seal .
Hi Kris thanks for the video as always! Personally if it was me I would ‘remote mount’ the generator. I’m thinking a small frame to support the generator and a shaft with its own bearings mounted outside the pelton wheel housing. This way it would be miles away from any water and it would also eliminate the side forces on the generator.
Hope that makes sense.
Would also make future maintenance easier and you could have grease-able bearings on the shaft.
If the bearing started to fail, it would induce a wobble that makes the seal fail. Invest in better bearings that can handle the RPM and load for years to come. However, I don't know of any! You might be stuck replacing bearings once a year. The other option is to build the water wheel further from the alternator with a longer shaft with double bearings. This is the project that got me interested in your channel in the first place.
I'm glad you addressed this now instead of waiting for the stator and magnets to contact each other. And it took half the time I said it would!
A few thoughts, mostly to the designer:
- When I worked as an engineer at GE where they build mining truck gearboxes they extensively used labarynth seals. These are profiles machined into the rotating surfaces more like a maze than any contacting rubber seal. They work to help keep nasty stuff from getting to the seal.
- Those seals are jelly bean parts of a standard size and should be available online and at parts suppliers worldwide. There's probably a shop in Wales that carries replacements, might be worth picking up a few. Same with the bearings.
- A water flinger with suitable drain holes would be a good way of keeping water from the seals. Furthermore directing it to be installed vertically would likely resolve these issues or at least leave an out for warranty failures.
- Adding a grease zerk on the back of the rotor (fan side) with suitable galleys for the grease to travel to the bearing cavity, changing the bearings to unsealed, and specifying a grease regemine would force contaminated grease out of the bearings.
I might think of more and add them here at a later time.
Good job Kris for getting it done with limited tools. I'm afraid I wouldn't have been able to do it any more gracefully.
Thanks for the advice Joe, much appreciated. i will most likely do an update after i have spoken to the maker of them and taken all this advice and worked out the best thing to do.
One of those snap rings is gonna blind you or rip your face open. I used to rebuild transmissions and trust me they’ll get ya. Wear safety glasses and don’t get me started on taking them out with picks! Anyway informative video.
Just extend the shaft and have a 1 inch air-gap between the impellor housing and the Alternator. However even then, condensation is likely to be a problem. So use Outboard Engine Grease on the bearings... that stuff can work under water.
Drill a hole down the Center of the shaft stater plate side, deep enough to sit in between the 2 bearings drill a hole into the side of the shaft, thread and install a grease nipple at the end of shaft ... pump up with outboard motor type of grease,, as you are using loaded type of seals, obtain loaded seals with a stainless steel tension band and use 2 seals back to back... a good few pumps of grease once a month...I would recommend Timkin or SKF bearings... the dimensions are normally stamped on the outer race ... it’s always worth picking the seal off and repacking with marine grade grease... I am a ships Chief Engineer, and I always load new bearings up with good marine grease.. I like your projects... nice work, environmentally hydro is the way to go .... thanks for sharing...
Kris, if you ask the manufacturer for the numbers off the seal, you could source a replacement here in the u.k.
Maybe a double lipped one?
Also waterproof black grease is excellent
Old fashioned solution Kris. Fit a grease nipple to the outer casing, then greased every few days or so, should stop water getting to the seal. Had an old wooden boat for a few years mid 2000s. Lots of grease in the stern tube stopped any water coming in.
Like he's going to go out and grease bearing every 2 days LMAO!! Move his bed out to pump house !! Problem solved !! Oh YA always BUY Jap bearings LMAO!!!!
good information
@@ManJO601 Automatic lubricators are a solution (rather expensive) to keeping fresh grease in there.
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Given how important hydro must be to you, I would look for a replacement ceramic bearing of the same fitment. They cost a bit but last much longer and the ceramic balls don't rust.
Really enjoy watching the objective drive you apply to all your projects. Sanity in this upside down world! Thank you.
There are two problems with this design: 1) too many seals, 2) no drain points. What's happening is that your seals are passing because of a tiny pressure differential almost certainly owing to temperature cycling, then your seals are keeping the water in not out.
Absolutely agree with this!
Maybe a tank in the supply line can help slow the water down and let the particles settle at the bottom, reducing the wear on your components 🤔
You could add a large valve at the bottom and open it every night (or when you really need low amounts of output) to flush the slag :)
I would also rework your intake:
Currently it's sucking all the fine sand from the stream, to stop this you need a retaining wall and fetch the water from the top of the basin. Also make sure to add a well designed overflow, which don't destabilize the soil which supports your retaining wall.
At the bottom of the basin needs to be a outlet too, or the basin will fill up with slag. If for example do gardening, you could skip that and shovel it out for to fertilise your fields 😙🎶
RS bearings are ok for dust and _moisture_ but not immersion. General use would use unsealed bearings (look at the wheel bearings on boat trailers) with a grease fitting and add grease as needed. Trailer wheel bearing cavities are often capped with a pressure spring to allow for heating cooling.
Good video, you showed us all good points and the bad points of this system that you are using. Please keep us updated on its performance over the next couple of weeks and months.👍
Hi Chris I have been binge watching all your vids and think its amazing what you have done and achieved from the start of your project. I love the alternate life style as I live on my boat. May be if you do need to pull the turbine apart again use marine bearings and marine grease. good luck and keep the videos coming
finally someone using the turbine is a horizontal position where discharge water can naturally exit, others I have seen have the turbine vertical and the water backup is causing lots of drag and friction, I would also build the discharge box a bit longer to catch (direct) and dispose 'used' water and keep it from coming back on the fins , with a sealed bearing and grease fitting,one could extend the life of those bearings , use wheel bearing like in a car, conical with a raceway and sealed
it might be an idea to attach a spinning splash guard, this would just be a thin disk (needs to be redesigned) that spins with the turbine meaning if any water makes it along the shaft it will be "flung" outwards
This is right on. Water will migrate up the shaft. It needs a slinger ring.
Exactly right its called a slinger and that would fix the problem
Hi Kris, just a thought lesson from marine shafts is a shaft seal on the separation sheet to the wet area, fits through the hole with a rubber flange either side and the shaft passes through it. Works for prop shafts on boats... often supported by a split conical seal in real heavy duty applications.
I agree with you about the silt grinding out the seal. But that type of seal probably works best in pristine clean oil conditions. Also, I think you had the seal in backwards. It should be concave side toward the water wheel (splitting hairs). But stream water is rough on any seal, even a carbon and ceramic mechanical seal. I recon to use no seal at all, but put some distance between the Pelton wheel and the generator, (shaft coupling say 200mm long) with a "chamber" with a decent sized weep hole at the base, and a 75mm rubber flinger disc - or 2 of them. Trouble is, it would not just be weeping through from the Pelton wheel, it may be under some pressure. So distance is the solution, not seals - in my opinion. Also. when putting bearings on a shaft, one must be careful not to impact the outside bearing race with a hammer, or it pits the balls against the race and it is just a matter of time before it is ruined. A rough way used to be using a pin punch to "drift" the bearing on the shaft - hitting only the center race - or use a small piece of angle iron. But the old fashioned way was to warm (expand) a bearing in a tub of hot oil and then simply slide it on. These days it is done with an induction heater. Also, some folks choose neoprene contact seal bearings (2NK suffix) for a small bit of extra moisture protection in such a humid environment. And, it is unwise to use a metal hammer for end housing assembly, or pulley fitting etc, because it pits the bearings too. Use wood or leather mallet - it is more gentle. Better to heat / expand things and slide them on, than hit them. Also don't overheat aluminium parts with flame, they can quickly turn molten. But I am not an engineer. I really enjoy watching your videos!
Great job on the repair. I believe you are right about a grease cavity between the turbine and generator. I would be good if it had an external grease fitting to service it as well. Also an additional bearing to help support the other side would add to its service life.
I think that after you get all of your buildings built, you should build furniture and custom woodwork because you are so talented! My husband and I love watching your videos. Keep up the great work!
only recently come across your channel
as a former senior pump technician a splash plate or a mech seal would be your best solution. the splash plate i would think would be the way to go as a mech seal needs to be constantly wet as if it runs dry even for a second they fail.
The splash plate fits tight to the shaft between the pelton wheel and the body of the chamber and spins in the chamber creating a centrifuge and diverting the water away from the seal and the bearing housing.
Extend the shaft and add a second bearing to it's end will buy much more time between failure's.
The best way to take a magnets strength is to bang on them,better to press ,little bottle jack in a frame.
To use a O-ring instead metalspring on the seal was a great idea,i got to try that .
Also a gap and another seal just to allow anything in escape
Collective knowledge your helping make the product a good one
You need a "fling" washer. Goes on the base of the impeller shaft and "flings" any water away from the hole. And yes, the assembly should be on it's side with the alternator facing up.
You need a water slinger (disc) on that shaft inside the turbine housing to stop water creep along the shaft. I done it to mine & never a problem & have never needed to touch the bearings ever & I run it in a vertical configuration.
Thanks for the video i love your chanel and are in awe of what you have achieved to so far, as a mechanical engineer who specialises in rotating equipment ie pumps. I feel i have to comment, first of all i feel that you would be better moving away from sealed for life / sheilded bearings for this application and going for greased and using a water resistant grease like the blue or green type used by the water companies. Would also put spacer between the motor plate with 4 studs and impeller of at least 5mm would also open up the hole from your guard / shourld, as this is funeling the pressurised water towards the lip / oil seal. Would also replace the lip seal for a double lip seals. Stainless springs are available but should not be necessary as we should not see water in here, cause if we do the bearings will fail. Best design would be to keep the dry / motor side away from the wet with a mechanical seal / packing gland, however i understand you have to work with what you have. But i do think keeping the water back from the lip seal i.e. having a 5mm gap to let it drain and opening the hole size will help. Last comment, the lip seal you reused cost less than £3 you can buy these from any local bearing suppliers. If your not fimilar try brammer or eriks but there are loads of small companies that will help, if the kit is from usa it only means the sizes will be in imperial rather than metric this won't be a issue.
hello sir Al Math, been reading your comment, and its a sound advice. hope a guy like me could also visualize your idea and put it into reality....planning to have one of this hydro generated power soon....am still gather some helpful ideas....thanks much....
Good job. The waved washer is designed to extend the bearing life and make them run quieter. If you were near I would drop in my circlip plyers.
The seal can only work with good bearings, so worn bearings will damage the seal.
You're jumping to conclusion, by judging the water ingress to bearings is root cause.
One possible root acuse is corrosion of the sping of sealing. A shim towards the water and a greaes packing between the shim and seal might help.
Many thanks for all the fantastic videos you posted.
Love this video mate! It's nice you are showing us what can and will go wrong on the homestead and how you fix it. Keep it up! (looking forward to you hitting 100k subs! I've been here since about 20k area :D )
Add a balanced shaft extender to get some distance between the peloton wheel /water and the generator and less water will get through to the bearings and seal hopefully get a much longer bearing life
very nice suggestion, thank you
@@KrisHarbour I was going to suggest something similar. Put the Pelton in the middle of a long drive shaft so no water will reach either end. Support each end in bearings with grease nipples (for maintenance), then attach your generator to that. Keeps water away from everything and should last till the ends of the earth.
The alternative is some kind of disc on the drive shaft to throw off the water and prevent any getting behind it.
I was on may way to suggest just that. Have seen larger hydro power stations, they are designed like that.
Just like everyone else on this thread... I was about to suggest the same thing. Good to know that the internet concurs with my armchair engineering lol
Had the same idea. If you put a flexibel coupling on the extensions axis your alingment is far more easy to realise
Reserve some of the heat produced by the generator to drive off the water. it's brilliant :)
By the way, using the edge ring to push the center ring in place is a death sentence for the bearing.
Hi Kris, it is quite likely the bearings sucked the water in past the seals. This is caused once the bearings are warm and the machine is turned off, any water sitting around the seals will get sucked in.
One way to get around the problem is to put a slinger plate on the shaft between the housing and the seal. So that any water that comes out of the housing is thrown off by the slinger and doesn't get to sit around the seal. And to me the seal should be place in the other way around
That seems to be quite a common suggestion so i think that might be the way i go about fixing it. or making a new one with that design in place. i thought that seal was wrong! but i checked the documentation sent by the seller and it shows it with the spring facing the water. i Think they might all be like that. and i think its a mistake. Thanks for the info. its been very helpfull
Great video. Can't believe its been a year since I sat here and watch you build the thing!
I think that the problem has already been addressed and solved by the automotive industry in the form of an oil slinger disc (attached to the engine crankshaft) which runs in a drained annulus which feeds the oil ingress back to the engine sump; in this case a slinger disc behind the mounting plate operating in an annulus which is open at the bottom to a drain.
dirty water took out your seal. a different orientation would keep the water out, but would require tapered bearings to support the weight of the peliton wheel. the weight would take out the installed ball bearing’s race, as they are not designed to have a hung weight on the bearing race, whereas a tapered bearing is. cheers from Canada, I know you’ll figure it out
A friend of mine who owned an ATV/motorcycle repair shop once told me that he never installedssealed bearings as they were. Although they are pre-greased, they don't contain enough grease. He always carefully removes the bearing seal and adds more grease then reinstalls the seal. He said it usually increases bearing life by 50-100 %.
Hard to see for sure which way the seal was in there but it appeared the spring in the seal was facing out. It should most certainly be next to the bearing not facing towards the water. Spring is always next to the bearing you’re protecting.
Thought the same thing. When he disassembled the generator the spring was facing towards the water side. Wrong way. By the way this looks very similar to a washing machine drum bearing and seal housing. Look how its done there...
Eric Shell notice he pulled parts of the spring out of the seal... rusted up, and failed. I’m certain this was the issue... water riding on the seal, Magee the spring, releasing pressure on the shaft, and water gets past the seal easily... filled the bearing cavity with water, and bobs your uncle... dead bearings.
Reverse the seal, pack with grease, problem sealed...
I spotted exactly the same thing straight away. The seal was mounted the wrong way round. Motorcycle engines use the same type of seals on engine bearings. The carbon (not stainless) steel spring MUST be the same side as the bearing. If the spring WAS stainless it would not have the same "springness" and longevity as carbon steel. Since this happened over a year ago I am sure you got that sussed by now. Excellent video mate. Kudos.
I concur with the other replies about using the right tools. You work with what you've got, right? I got countless (minor) injuries doing what you did with those circlips on the video. I was young, working in a third world country and severely under-resourced. No money to buy proper tools. The most used accessory in my workshop was the first aid kit.
@@ulivuzza yeah I was making faces watching him apply forces angled towards his own hand with a semi sharp tool... One slip and it goes right through his hand...
IDk if you figured this out but the problem I saw right away was that yes water did make it to the seal. For a good long while that was where it stopped, however those curved chunks that you picked out of the inner rim of the seal were the tension spring that holds the rubber seal gently to the shaft. Once water collected on the face of the seal it then corroded the spring to failure and then the water was allowed into the bearing. You may be able to put silicone on top of the spring but that might make it not function as well since it won't be able to move as it should. If the contact between the seal and the shaft is not tapered in any way mounting the seal "upside" down may prevent this by putting the spring inside the greased bearing compartment and since you have a plate that goes on top of the seal I would think that would work just fine
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great work, any bearing that is around water for a period of time and spinning 24 / 7 / 365 is going to wear down. However in your case, i would add screens / filters to the system coming into the hydro unit. or capture water in a tank before the hydro pump and just recirculate it. This way it gives time for the raw water to be screened - filtered out. You would just be recycling the water, through a pump or gravity flow. its a neat system Kris, also remember its just maintenance.
I am suspecting a problem with application of the bearing and that it should be using roller bearings rather than ball bearings. My thought is that the bearings failed and then the wobble allowed water into them through the seal.
A very good hypothesis, I will suggest that to the maker.
No, I don't think so. Ball bearings handle this workload just fine. Rollers won't handle the axial load you get from the vanes being offset to the bearings
@@frodehau You could very well be correct however I think if you put two roller bearings in facing opposite ways similar to heavy duty equipment installations you will more compensate for the axial load. I do also feel that supporting the turbine shaft on both ends of the turbine would be the best way to accomplish the axial load that it bears. A mechanical engineer would be the best route for a solution as that is their area of expertise but the axial load as well as the thrust needs to be considered and the design may be missing it's consideration.
@@bobbalbirnie2478 those are called tapered roller bearings. Fantastic for low rpm applications like wheel hubs, but they have quite a bit of parasitic drag.
@@bobbalbirnie2478 I don't have formal training in engineering, but I have built custom stuff for ag and contractor applications. Hydraulics, mechanics and so on. I just studied how commercial products where built to judge dimensions and select the right bearings and whatnot. I would have gotten payed much better if I had the papers 🙄
Yes, ceramic seals, grease zerks and drain holes are all better design ideas BUT, when repairing what already works fix what's broken first, And the obvious failure was the little spring that was broken. I have changed a lot of seals in my life down on the farm and know that a seal that doesn't have that spring, intact will not hold. My seals run in all kinds of dirt and grime and still they last a long time. I have also never seen those rust away I wonder if there not made from stainless anyways. Usually damage to that spring comes from careless hammering with the three pounder when it is first installed. Especially when you have to install the seal "backwards" like you have to on that installation. Thanks for the cool movies
It may just be an illusion but that plate that you are shown at 14:35, putting back on is not round. If it is not then as it rotates it will put stress on the bearings. Another thing when you are trying to pry/ separate two things you need two tools, like the chisel you used to separate the impeller wheel' One on each side. you want to force it away not just rock it back and forth. When you only use one, the side you are forcing moves up, when you switch it to the other side and apply pressure then that side moves up and the first side rocks back down. by using two wedges you maintain your purchase and you don't have. to switch them back and forth. Same thing with the pick if you pull up the seal at one point and then move the pick to a different ar3ea the first point will sink back down. If you use two picks that won't happen. You are doing some pretty amazing work!
Kris the first problem is the seal was installed wrong way arround by the manufacturer it lasted well. Install the seal the correct way and it will last a lot longer. Secondly justs install a slinger on the shaft and no whater will even get to the seal. The best will be to mount the wheel horrisontally. I like all your videos and it teach poeple skills.
Hey Kris, this isn't really a technical discussion but more of just a different angle. It doesn't necessarily apply to this particle segment but more general. I saw a guy in the US who was knocking out bearings on his water wheel, pillow blocks that he was greasing regularly. He was bidding on a pallet of them at an auction & this old guy who was also interested in them asked what he wanted them for. After he told him the old guy said that what he needed was wood bearings, lubed & cooled by the water. I'm sorry but can't remember the type it was but it was what the old timers found worked, maybe a maple. After that his maintenance went to almost zero. This is obviously lower rpm application. Those big pumps they used for pumping out the levees in New Orleans & other sea level cities had wooden impellers & mostly wood components & lots of them built almost 100 yrs ago r still in use. I get along w hi tech but where & when possible I prefer lo tech just because it's practical & generally serviceable for long periods. The angle here being of course to not worry about preventing the water from reaching the internals & use it for lube & cooling if the right materials r employed. Just a thought.
BTW the Coanda intake tiles r genius, with a little more testing & troubleshooting I'm sure you guys r going to advance intake tech.
When pressing bearings you need to support the inner race ring with a tubular support because this takes the pressing load from friction against the shaft. Pressing from the housing i.e. via the outer race ring as it appears you did will transmit load through the balls and this can damage the race ring grooves causing growling and premature wear.
Labyrinth seal with a weep drain behind it then the rubber seal. So a small disc/washer tight to the casing fitted before the Pelton wheel, with a top hat cap/cover fitted over the disc. A groove in the mounting plate on the face against the housing creating a weep hole to let any water that makes it through escape. Another weep hole track next to that not all the way up drilled through to the disc area. Dry as a bone forever. Three simple quick mods I would make that cost almost nothing and increase reliability tremendously.
Hi Kris:
In the case of this turbine where there is not much pressure on the axis, double lip seals, and always with the Toroidal dock for the inside, since if it is not ended up eating. There are also ceramic stamps that last many years, are safer and friction is minimal, asks for them in bearing and similar distributors, I buy them often and there are countless measures, they also support extreme temperatures while those of neoprene or Viton does not like low temperatures if there is no lubrication. Greetings.
Simple modification install washers as spacers between the cover plate and the generator so that any water passing through the ‘small hole’ cover plate can drain away rather than resting on the oil seal, centrifugal force will aid this. As a better solution a ‘thrower’ disc could be installed to further keep water off the seal. ( you might have to stop water flying from the gap created or maybe gravity will be enough to direct it downward and away …)
The broken spring in the oil seal is almost certainly the reason so much water was able to enter the bearing and cause it to fail … but as mentioned it’s an oil seal not a water seal and is intended to keep oil in not water out, hence the need for separation of the turbine housing and the generator.
Another tip, don’t use a hammer to remove the bearings when an electrical coil is involved.
Turn it so the generator so it is on top, then gravity will keep the water out of it... with it on the side, water will rundown inside the seals due to wear and thermal expansion and contraction no matter how good you seal it. Only problem is... The bearings might not be rated for the radial force, running in that direction. Bearing seal goes... spring towards the bearing. Use white lithium grease that will reject water instead of what you used, that type will mix with water, and pack it in.
It needs a grease box or packing box like propeller shaft on a boat or a screw seal
stuffing box is old tech and they leak bey design. use a shaft from a jet ski and a carbon seal. much better tech and cheap
@@freelectron2029 This might work. A 'mechanical' seal as used in an automotive water pump is an option if the water has no abrasive but that may wear fast in this application.
I’ve looked over your video twice now, and I think it’s an outstanding solution!! However, I do believe that your first plate, and your outer plate besides silicone only as your water barrier you might want to include a very tight fitting piece of thin rubber and grease it so it could be an outer seal from your water. You can get that from a large innertube and cut the piece to fit the holes that you have for the bolts, just make sure, It fits very tight. Around the shaft, and two stages of this on both sides your plate will probably solve your problem… Don’t forget degrees heavily
from the looks, it is high maintenance and I suggest that a regular watermill with a big diameter is less dependant on cleaning leaves and replacing bearings, noise levels.... thanks for your description of the problem. correct me if I'm wrong.
👍👍 that's good you are mechanicley inclined ...love your cabin...
The seal is in the wrong way for keeping the water out. As fitted it will keep the grease in. Since they are sealed bearings there is no need to keep the grease in so the seal needs to be the other way round to keep the water out. In the lower part of an outboard motor they use two seals, one to keep the gear oil in and another to keep the water out. If you think about the crankshaft Seal on an engine and the way it is fitted with the smooth face out. That seal designed to keep the oil in. If the engine gets submerged it will let water in. Hope this explanation helps
For your own safety put some Circlip pliers onto your Birthday wish list Kris haha
Well done cool update 👍
Lip seals like that can allow water to be pulled through - when it goes from "hot" relatively speaking to cold on the bearing side. As others have said - a shaft would help, but that introduces other issues.
I was interested to know whether the manufacturer ever got to the bottom of the problem with the generator?
As suggested by others in the comments, my immediate thought was that the bearings are very close together for an axle that is being eccentrically loaded by the force of the water hitting the pelton wheel. This would wear one bearing faster than the other - at some point, there would be sufficient play to squash the bearing seals sufficiently to let water in. Potential solution, as suggested in the comments already - lengthen the axle through the pelton wheel and add a bearing on the other side.
Love this series of videos; I hope to find somewhere where I can do this one day; thanks for taking the time to put the videos together
I would add some packing in the aluminum plates between the turbine and the generator. You should be able to get a makeshift stuffing box between the outer aluminum and the seal. They are WAY more effective at stopping water ingres. Also you want somewhere to the water to escape before it gets to thatr seal. Water will go the path of least resistance, and if you have all the plates glued, the only place for it to go is into the bearings. The second plate, which is glued to the face of the generator, should have a drain on it. Just grind a notch in the plate on the face that butts up to the generator so water can dip out.
And if there were some sort of 1cm tall plate/cone on the shaft that span as well, wouldn't centrifugal force fling any water away from progressing up the shaft to the bearings? This water could then drain out the bottom. This is a complementing idea to yours.
Another really interesting video Kris. I see you have had a lot of helpful comments from people with experience in these matters so that should provide you with a number of options for permanent repairs.
You could put ceramic bearings in and put a thrower disc just before it which will centrifuge the bulk of the water away to give the seals an easier time Kris
You are a genius! Lots of work went into this video. Very well done!
Hi Kris, Make yourself a DIY Bearing Press. H / A Frame with an inverted 20 Tonne Bottle Jack.
RockApe 01
Inverting a bottle jack is a lot more work than it’s worth. Easier to design it to use the jack upright but it could be inverted. There are videos on UA-cam showing how to do it.
My suggestion for the lake is to use it as a ‘pumped storage’ system in the summer. So when you have an excess of power, pump water that has been through the system into the lake so that in the summer, when natural water flow is low you can maintain a constant ( ish ) flow.
Also have you thought about using a few gears so that you can make the coil and magnets spin faster?
Also add regular coats of silicone
Also can you list all the parts you have used or reference the websites? Im interested in making my own
Hi Kris, from what I've been taught (Diesel Fitter by trade, however I've been off the tools for a number of years now) that seal was installed back to front. The garter spring (rusted bits of metal you pulled out) in this application is always installed to the bearing side. The smaller protruding lip on the flat side of the seal acts as a "dust seal" which keeps any foreign objects getting in close to the main sealing surface which is held tight by the garter spring (on this type of shaft seal). Having it installed the way it was allowed the external contaminated elements to corrode the garter spring and likely wear the rubber sealing surfce also. I'd suggest just getting another seal and installing it so the garter spring is on the bearing side and believe you will not have the same early failure.
Thanks for the info, that’s what I thought as I was putting it back together but assumed it should go back the way it come off as the manufacturer should know!
ua-cam.com/video/DKq4BmGoVQw/v-deo.html The seal first shown in this video is the same as your application.
No worries, I've been watching your video's for years now learning heaps! For the first time I thought I might be able to offer you some info to look at. We are off grid in Australia living in a yurt. Solar and batteries are our soul power source at the moment but looking into hydro also as we have a permanent creek. Always look forward to your video's coming out :)
The seal was installed the correct way as the inside of the seal with the spring goes on the wet side so in this application its opposite from a gearbox shaft or something like that. In this case with the spring corroding it may be better to put it in the other way just so that a common cheap seal with a ferrous spring can be used. There looks so be enough thread length on the studs mounting the generator to the turbine housing to get rid of the silicone and fit a couple of washers on each stud to give a gap between where the water could flow out freely. I suspect that would be the easiest fix without re-engineering the whole thing.
Seals are designed so they ether seal things in or keep things out. The sealing lip should be sharp. if it is smooth then it is worn out and should replaced. the seal spring "usually" is installed toward the inside. It has been a while since this video was posted. I hope you have the issue resolved.
Shaft may be wicking water into bearing. Ambient temp has an effect. Never put seals in dry. Just a thought. Put your generator on a periodic inspection schedule to avoid failure. Use a root cause analysis to pin down the cause before it fails. Good luck!
I've read through the comments, and I think the suggestion to add a vent hole to the bottom could work. But I'd might take the trouble to add a breather tube to that hole. It depends on how violent the splashing action is in that area. Drill a press fit hole for a piece of copper brake tube, slide a hose over that, and gravity feed that away. Also make sure the seal is installed flat side out.
Channeling Fred Dibnah again I see😁! Your ingenuity knows no bounds bonny lad. Proud of you. X
Great video Kris, I almost commented halfway through but waited and just as well as you covered all the points.
The seal spring was the one I thought you had missed. Good catch. I have seen oil seals with a coil spring in a ring form which compresses the inner seal onto the shaft, has been a while and I cannot recall the name. As you mention a change to stainless would be an improvement but a stiffer spring in the first instance to stop ingress maybe required. Hopefully the shaft originally had a high polish. The as supplied bearings are a quality bearing, was surprised at that! Am a big fan of SKF bearings, when replacing stuff.
Have long had an interest in these units, thanks for sharing your install with us all, great that the provider is open to interaction and willing to consider areas of improvement.
As you point out the problem would be reduced by changing the orientation of the hydro unit to horizontal and I have seen it done this way online in others installs and would have been the way I would prefer when doing this myself.
Stiffer spring increases the seal and shaft wear. The spring is selected by manufacturers after lots of pain and suffering to give longest life span.
I agree with Andrew Kirwin. The fundamental flaw in the design is the fact that it fastens the generator directly to the water wheel. There should be an air gap so the generator has no wetted parts. Ever. It is common for pump seals to leak. Some are designed to leak in order to flush away silt and debris, which would be a good idea for this application, but the generator needs to be separate. This product could be modified in that way simply by building a frame to hold both moving parts and then building a coupler to connect them. The water is under pressure. If it wasn't you could make no power, but with that pressure there is no way you're going to keep it from leaking into the generator, long term.
Hi Kris , the rusty spring you removed from the seal keeps the plastic firmly against the surfaces its sealing , it looks like a steel spring not stainless so has corroded allowing seal to collapse in on itself then will leak , if possible fit it spring side opposite side to water or a stainless version , you can also obtain from any supplier a sealed seal lol
Good call doing it before it fails..
Graphite grease when you put these things back together will be a benefit.
A decent bearing supplier will sell you a high quality bearing and new seals..
A tube to the seal with an autogreaser could be a good effort, food grade grease of course.
👍
Always a great feeling to turn something you've taken apart, "on" and it works! :)
Have you checked to see if you're running the most recent firmware?
It looks to me as if the seal is installed backwards. I think the spring void should be protected from the water, facing the bearings, and it's not in that position.
No, the seal is installed correctly. Lip seals really only seal well in one direction. You want the spring on the side that you want stuff to not leak from, aka the side that's pressurized
This is exactly why I came to read the comments. The seal is 100% installed backwards.
You even took it out and it was the correct way, just go back to the start of your video
Hi there recon the problem is that the seal is designed to keep liquid in which it did by keeping the water in the bearing so I would have put it the other way around to keep the water out,better still one either way.
The problem is that as the alternator gets hot and cold out expands the air in the bearings and blood that out then when it cools it sucks in whatever is close water or air eh j had problems like this when we made wind turbines with rain water.
A thrower disk Infront of the seal to spin with the shaft and throw the water away from the seal.
Good luck
If you had an air gap between the alternator and the water-box then no water would reach your bearings. Maybe add a couple of washers as spacers, to achieve an air gap.
It might help to seperate the pelton wheel from motor through a belt or axle, to keep the dynamo dry. Very interesting video!
Rust ftw
Mount the generator on a separate base and run a direct drive shaft.. man I love watching your videos..
Enjoying all the recent uploads, keep them coming. Over 80k subs so far,well done.
It is the lip seal that has failed, it was never intended to do what is being asked to so it is a miracle that it has done so well, on a polished steel shaft they hold oil back, they need to be lubricated, if you can get the smallest oil feed in between the seal and the bearings there will be pressure pushing out which holds the water back, you only need a header tank a few feet up on the wall to maintain the pressure, it is how it is done on fast yachts and ships, the propellor shaft is in an oil bath under water.
Use phosphorus bronze, they are hard wearing, packed with grease and an 'O' ring to seal. During my apprenticeship years in the 1980's we had to make a sprocket device to help pull them apart using a lathe and milling machine both of which you now have in your workshop.
Hi Chris, I would advise changing that seal as soon as possible, without the spring in it it will not seal correctly, letting water through to destroy your new bearings!!!! As other people have suggested a longer shaft between wheel & generator would lessen the amount of possible water ingress,
If the shaft between the impeller and motor is lengthened there is no contact between water and those angry electricery fairies. Could then fit a grease nipple keep it all going for years. Great video
Valsir o-ring silicone, might be your best friend but you don't know it yet. To all o ring, plastic and similar items it is a "fix-all" thing. Used during installation, maintenance and throwing out the part as old one, you'll make it be so good, that the next one who picks it up, will still be able to use it.
If you could somehow distance the pelton wheel from the dynamo, water wouldn't be able to reach the dynamo or its bearings. Are you able to use an axle, belt or chain? Very interesting video!
On a boat drive shaft we are in contact with canal water all year so we use a Stern gland housing packed with rope and grease. The grease can be pumped manually to the gland. We still get bilge water when travelling but when at rest we turn the grease pump 3 turns to stop ingress of water. 😉
Just fell across your channel and glad I did. Look forward in checking out more videos. Thank you.
LMAO!!!!! 3:18- 3:25 "I did have my safety squint engaged! HAHAHA!!
Ah man trade secret.. Love that saying. No safety glasses around and the good old flinging C Clips LOL!
Mate try a water slinger between the water wheel and the plate. Just need a small bit of round rubber to slide over the shaft.