Thanks for all of your reviews Jim! I have been wanting to get a new CNC for a couple of years and finally decided on the AVID Pro 48x48 with the EX controller and servo motors. I added the rotary, wireless pendant, and vertical work holding options. Your videos and reviews have really inspired me. It is supposed to be delivered late this week, so I'm like a kid watching the Santa Clause tracker. In talking with the AVID team, i know they are working on additional laser options, but I did order the Opt XT8 directly from Opt and was amazed that it arrived in just a few days. I'm not sure how many times I referenced your setup when talking with AVID. I really like the way your machine is set up and plan to do the same with mine when it arrives. Thanks again for what you do for the community. It is greatly appreciated!
@ Do you think it’s possible to mount both the ESS and Centroid boards and switch between them? Maybe with a few wire swaps or nice connectors in between? I’ll get you that software it’s my resolution ;)
@@PaperTools With the servos like I have the wiring is too much of a changout. However, If you keep your steppers, then its not too bad. The cables in that case are a 1:1 match, so if you labled all your sensor and motor cables well, you coule probably do a swap in about 5 minutes.
After your last video. I looked at cnc12. I found a video that was just about using a laser. There is a backlash setting in the program. When they set up the backlash properly it was a totally different machine. The part that stood out the most to me was that the controller was calculating the backlash into the g code and telling the motor were it should be. With the closed loop telling the controller where the motor is actually moving I think that one should be able to print out a grayscale photo that would be perfect. The test that they used was making a straight line using pulses across an axis.
I know which video you are talking about. Ya, they use the backlash as a means to adjust that right now. I'm currently characterizing it vs. feedrate. These clearpaths are stepper replacements, so they are closed loop within the motor only, as far as the controller is concerned its a stepper motor. The other thing is that this is really a timing lead/lag between the PWM control and the motor control and its hard to build that in to be dead on without needing a little calibrations. The ESS card with Mach4 is the same way.
Really interesting Jim. Thanks for getting into some of the important details on this. I'm particularly impressed with the refreshing way Avid is re-imagining aspects of CNC12 to make it a more functional package. For example, the laser is treated as a tool that needs specific attributes assigned for optimal function. They've put those things in (one?) place and incorporate them into a functional 'tool' for the sake of the post processor. How do you think the laser setup will work with Lightburn where the output is G-Code? Will we need to build commands around Lightburn output to incorporate some of the special functions (M64 comes to mind)? For a stock CNC12 user, I'm hoping there will be cross-fertilization across both of these platforms. The PP is downloadable for examination/modification, but I'd like to get some of the other doo-dads like M64 or other settings that are explicitly evident.
Hi Scott, I am actually working on some of that very laser stuff today. I'm using both Vectric and LaserGrbl. I don't know much about Lightburn's customization capabilities for Gcode output. LaserGrbl writes out Gcode that is Centroid compatible, and it lets you write your own header, footer, and multipass mid code sections, so it is easy to get all those "special" gcodes and macros added it. I suspect Lightburn is the same. A lot of the recent new router additions to the stock CNC12 came from collaboration with AVID. A lot of AVID's customization that is on top of that are just simple macros, so you can do that stuff yourself easily. For example, I like the stuff AVID has done with the laser, but its a little too integrated for me because I do a lot more experimentation rather than production, so I want it a little more stand alone and not tied to the spindle. It will be easy to make the changes I want for myself.
Good video. I assume you still should set a measured steps/inch value using a digital caliper or dial indicator for each axis to get good accuracy like was done in Mach4. I don't see a way to do that or heard anyone discuss it.
Yes, you can still calibrate linearity and backlash. I have done backlash on mine, and the values are added in the Utility Menu->Advanced config->Mach.->Motor. In there are the settings for Lash comp. I have not yet done linearity calibration on mine since converting (but I plan to soon). In that same menu is "Motor revs/in". Mine is set to 1.01859 by default from AVID fpr X and Y. It is the setting that you would fine tune to adjust the linearity. There is probably a formula listed on Centroid's website or forum for figuring out much to adjust it for a given amount of error, but I found with Mach4 the easiest thing is if you measure your error, make a change to the setting and measure the error, now you know how much the number affects the linearity and its easy then to figure out what the new number should be. Maybe I'll do a quick video on it when I get around to adjusting mine.
One thing that I should mention is that with the EX controller you cannot do sperate linearity and backlash adjustments for the two Y motors. Since they share the same axis output (the slave is just a copied and inverted version of the step signal) they have to use the same parameters. You can measure the error at each end of the gantry, and then just use a midpoint between the two if they are different.
@@JNWoodworks It also looks like you could use the Acorn controller screw mapping and correction capability to greatly improve accuracy in the XY plane. Building the table of correction values for every half inch of travel would be quite a job but it appears that CNC12 would execute the corrections seamlessly. It should work on rack and pinion systems just as well as ball screws.
@@Sehast Yep, Centroid has a LOT of adjustment capabilities. You can also adjust the acceleration that you want to use when the system is changing direction to take up the backlash. However, all of that stuff is IMO a little unnecessar for a large cnc router since the flex and deflection in the system are much larger than the backlash and linearity issues across the rack.....but its there if people want to go to the nth degree :-)
I still haven't seen anyone show the graph part. Is there a LIVE preview where you can watch the graph update in relation to the tool before running your program? Ex. making sure the stock you have on the table is enough for the program you are about to run. Or say if you have a star or weird shape your about to cut out and want to make sure it can fit in this area of the stock on your table that might also be a weird open area on a remnant. I don't know how else to word it right now. Mach3 has the feature "Jog Follow" I have CNC12 for a lathe and we don't get a live preview. Would be nice to make sure I have enough stock sticking out that it would not hit the chuck. It'd also be nice to be able to put that graph on the main screen. I find there's too many buttons I need to press to get around, at least with Mach3, everything I need is on one screen.
Hi Tyler, You are hitting on the one thing I think falls short on CNC12 (at least compared to mach3/4). They do have a graphing screen, but the current one is only offline. However, in CNC12 5.20 they did make it so you can jog around and it will show where the origins are, workpiece boundaries, and the tool is relative to the toolpath. So you can find out if all the zero settings and the toolpath fit on a weird shapped workpiece. However, I don't know if the live version of graphing is also updated with that info. This version should be coming to AVID soon. Centroid needs to do some improvement on the CNC12 screen. It is bascially set up to be optimal for a smaller LCD touchpanel that you'd see on a large CNC mill. However, everyone I know on a CNC router uses a bigger monitor, and the screen real estate is not used very well for that situation. I also had the line counters and percent complete statistics on Mach4, and I would like to see the toopath graph along with all the other info. Rigth now their graph drops on top of everything else when its turned on. They have added a lot of improvements lately for CNC router use, and I think they are planning on more so I'm hopefull that some of the things we're used to having on display all the time will be coming.
I have an Avid EX servo system and running into a problem where the z axes randomly crashes into the workpiece. Here is my process. I am surfacing panels so I run the same job over again. I only perform a z0 for the first panel. Tonight I surfaced 27 panels successfully, 28th panel where the Z0 when down it failed and continue to move down until it stopped with a drive error. FYI already working with Avid support but not sure when a solution will be found
Well thats not good. It sounds like you've run your's more than I've run mine so far. I've been mostly doing a bunch of experiments on vibration and laser accuracy. I have not seen any issues like that with mine, the only time I ran the Z axis down was my fault when I got a little careless with the pendant. I guess that could be a motor problem (internal encoder issue), or noise on the step signal from the controller to the motor. Weird. I'm sorry I don't have any good suggestions but maybe to reconnect the Z motor's signal cable at both ends just to make sure it has a good connection.
They can use the same power supplies that they have for steppers this way, and electrical safety ratings are easier to deal with under 50v. The power difference only matters is it's not enough, and these move things along just fine.
Thanks for all of your reviews Jim! I have been wanting to get a new CNC for a couple of years and finally decided on the AVID Pro 48x48 with the EX controller and servo motors. I added the rotary, wireless pendant, and vertical work holding options. Your videos and reviews have really inspired me. It is supposed to be delivered late this week, so I'm like a kid watching the Santa Clause tracker. In talking with the AVID team, i know they are working on additional laser options, but I did order the Opt XT8 directly from Opt and was amazed that it arrived in just a few days. I'm not sure how many times I referenced your setup when talking with AVID. I really like the way your machine is set up and plan to do the same with mine when it arrives. Thanks again for what you do for the community. It is greatly appreciated!
Awesome, have fun with your new machine. Half the fun of these is putting them together and figuring out all the things you can do with them .
I always appreciate you blazing the trail so I can follow your footsteps!
I'm waiting for some really good software engineer to come along and write me a new UI for it. If only I knew someone like that.....😂
@ Do you think it’s possible to mount both the ESS and Centroid boards and switch between them? Maybe with a few wire swaps or nice connectors in between? I’ll get you that software it’s my resolution ;)
@@PaperTools With the servos like I have the wiring is too much of a changout. However, If you keep your steppers, then its not too bad. The cables in that case are a 1:1 match, so if you labled all your sensor and motor cables well, you coule probably do a swap in about 5 minutes.
@@JNWoodworks Thanks I might give that approach a shot!
Nice work, Jim.
Jim: Awesome video, thanks for sharing!!
After your last video. I looked at cnc12. I found a video that was just about using a laser. There is a backlash setting in the program. When they set up the backlash properly it was a totally different machine. The part that stood out the most to me was that the controller was calculating the backlash into the g code and telling the motor were it should be. With the closed loop telling the controller where the motor is actually moving I think that one should be able to print out a grayscale photo that would be perfect. The test that they used was making a straight line using pulses across an axis.
I know which video you are talking about. Ya, they use the backlash as a means to adjust that right now. I'm currently characterizing it vs. feedrate.
These clearpaths are stepper replacements, so they are closed loop within the motor only, as far as the controller is concerned its a stepper motor. The other thing is that this is really a timing lead/lag between the PWM control and the motor control and its hard to build that in to be dead on without needing a little calibrations. The ESS card with Mach4 is the same way.
Really interesting Jim. Thanks for getting into some of the important details on this.
I'm particularly impressed with the refreshing way Avid is re-imagining aspects of CNC12 to make it a more functional package. For example, the laser is treated as a tool that needs specific attributes assigned for optimal function. They've put those things in (one?) place and incorporate them into a functional 'tool' for the sake of the post processor.
How do you think the laser setup will work with Lightburn where the output is G-Code? Will we need to build commands around Lightburn output to incorporate some of the special functions (M64 comes to mind)?
For a stock CNC12 user, I'm hoping there will be cross-fertilization across both of these platforms. The PP is downloadable for examination/modification, but I'd like to get some of the other doo-dads like M64 or other settings that are explicitly evident.
Hi Scott,
I am actually working on some of that very laser stuff today. I'm using both Vectric and LaserGrbl. I don't know much about Lightburn's customization capabilities for Gcode output. LaserGrbl writes out Gcode that is Centroid compatible, and it lets you write your own header, footer, and multipass mid code sections, so it is easy to get all those "special" gcodes and macros added it. I suspect Lightburn is the same.
A lot of the recent new router additions to the stock CNC12 came from collaboration with AVID. A lot of AVID's customization that is on top of that are just simple macros, so you can do that stuff yourself easily. For example, I like the stuff AVID has done with the laser, but its a little too integrated for me because I do a lot more experimentation rather than production, so I want it a little more stand alone and not tied to the spindle. It will be easy to make the changes I want for myself.
Good video. I assume you still should set a measured steps/inch value using a digital caliper or dial indicator for each axis to get good accuracy like was done in Mach4. I don't see a way to do that or heard anyone discuss it.
Yes, you can still calibrate linearity and backlash. I have done backlash on mine, and the values are added in the Utility Menu->Advanced config->Mach.->Motor.
In there are the settings for Lash comp. I have not yet done linearity calibration on mine since converting (but I plan to soon). In that same menu is "Motor revs/in". Mine is set to 1.01859 by default from AVID fpr X and Y. It is the setting that you would fine tune to adjust the linearity. There is probably a formula listed on Centroid's website or forum for figuring out much to adjust it for a given amount of error, but I found with Mach4 the easiest thing is if you measure your error, make a change to the setting and measure the error, now you know how much the number affects the linearity and its easy then to figure out what the new number should be.
Maybe I'll do a quick video on it when I get around to adjusting mine.
One thing that I should mention is that with the EX controller you cannot do sperate linearity and backlash adjustments for the two Y motors. Since they share the same axis output (the slave is just a copied and inverted version of the step signal) they have to use the same parameters. You can measure the error at each end of the gantry, and then just use a midpoint between the two if they are different.
@@JNWoodworks It also looks like you could use the Acorn controller screw mapping and correction capability to greatly improve accuracy in the XY plane. Building the table of correction values for every half inch of travel would be quite a job but it appears that CNC12 would execute the corrections seamlessly. It should work on rack and pinion systems just as well as ball screws.
@@Sehast Yep, Centroid has a LOT of adjustment capabilities. You can also adjust the acceleration that you want to use when the system is changing direction to take up the backlash. However, all of that stuff is IMO a little unnecessar for a large cnc router since the flex and deflection in the system are much larger than the backlash and linearity issues across the rack.....but its there if people want to go to the nth degree :-)
I still haven't seen anyone show the graph part. Is there a LIVE preview where you can watch the graph update in relation to the tool before running your program? Ex. making sure the stock you have on the table is enough for the program you are about to run. Or say if you have a star or weird shape your about to cut out and want to make sure it can fit in this area of the stock on your table that might also be a weird open area on a remnant. I don't know how else to word it right now. Mach3 has the feature "Jog Follow"
I have CNC12 for a lathe and we don't get a live preview. Would be nice to make sure I have enough stock sticking out that it would not hit the chuck.
It'd also be nice to be able to put that graph on the main screen. I find there's too many buttons I need to press to get around, at least with Mach3, everything I need is on one screen.
Hi Tyler,
You are hitting on the one thing I think falls short on CNC12 (at least compared to mach3/4). They do have a graphing screen, but the current one is only offline. However, in CNC12 5.20 they did make it so you can jog around and it will show where the origins are, workpiece boundaries, and the tool is relative to the toolpath. So you can find out if all the zero settings and the toolpath fit on a weird shapped workpiece.
However, I don't know if the live version of graphing is also updated with that info. This version should be coming to AVID soon.
Centroid needs to do some improvement on the CNC12 screen. It is bascially set up to be optimal for a smaller LCD touchpanel that you'd see on a large CNC mill. However, everyone I know on a CNC router uses a bigger monitor, and the screen real estate is not used very well for that situation. I also had the line counters and percent complete statistics on Mach4, and I would like to see the toopath graph along with all the other info. Rigth now their graph drops on top of everything else when its turned on. They have added a lot of improvements lately for CNC router use, and I think they are planning on more so I'm hopefull that some of the things we're used to having on display all the time will be coming.
@@JNWoodworks Thank you for the reply! I wanna switch over so bad!
I have an Avid EX servo system and running into a problem where the z axes randomly crashes into the workpiece.
Here is my process.
I am surfacing panels so I run the same job over again. I only perform a z0 for the first panel. Tonight I surfaced 27 panels successfully, 28th panel where the Z0 when down it failed and continue to move down until it stopped with a drive error.
FYI already working with Avid support but not sure when a solution will be found
Well thats not good. It sounds like you've run your's more than I've run mine so far. I've been mostly doing a bunch of experiments on vibration and laser accuracy. I have not seen any issues like that with mine, the only time I ran the Z axis down was my fault when I got a little careless with the pendant.
I guess that could be a motor problem (internal encoder issue), or noise on the step signal from the controller to the motor. Weird. I'm sorry I don't have any good suggestions but maybe to reconnect the Z motor's signal cable at both ends just to make sure it has a good connection.
Servos are only running at 48v? Teknic recommends 75W for the best power curve.
They can use the same power supplies that they have for steppers this way, and electrical safety ratings are easier to deal with under 50v. The power difference only matters is it's not enough, and these move things along just fine.