Nicely done test! However you should have run the tests with the hood closed to see how the throttle bodies performed while sucking hot air from the engine bay. I ran similar tests on a 'busa powered track car, mostly to test different airbox sizes and the difference was huge. constant 70\74°c IATs vs 6°c above ambient is no joke. The airbox is also easier to pressurize at speed and those 0.2psi play a little role as well at the top end of the power curve, something that's hard to replicate on a dyno... but relatively easy to calculate with a properly scaled MAP sensor and some fuel trim\afr\timing datalogs.
Thanks. Thought i had a pinned comment at the top explaining why i tested with the bonnet/hood open, but it seems to have mysteriously disappeared. anyway, I was trying to keep the temps the same, to see the effects of the airbox itself. ya know science says change one thing at a time. The conclusion i come to, was to run the biggest airbox and feed pipe possible (even bigger than what i ran) Or some other way to direct cold air to the inlet runners. In my case, this car usual runs some panels that black off the whole intake side of engine bay. with a big hole beside radiator that feeds cold air. Just it doesnt fit anymore since changed the intake about 50 times. If I ever decided on a intake runner. will go back to that setup.
@@Garage4age Your approach is commendable, it's just that some things work as a system so changing one component at a time may detract from the results' irl relevance. Also keep in mind that the shape of the airbox itself plays a huge role in delivering the same air to each cylinder, in my case I could start off with a boxy section that progressively widens and narrows up to the bellmouths, something you clearly couldn't to given the available space. You could perhaps move the airbox up front, leaving only some form of plenum to close to the ITBs to see how the power delivery changes. Of course if you can shield the ITBs from the rest of the engine bay while delivering a cold stream of air to them then the point becomes pretty much moot since you're effectively using and almost sealed, huge airbox! The math is out there but toying around with airbox sizes etc is a fun experiment nonetheless. On my NA, high revving and over-square engine the difference between the hotter and smaller airbox and this one amounts to a whopping 12hp at 11k rpm... Keep up the good work, i just subscribed to your channel and i'm loving it already!
@@TheDementedMonkeys The only time hot air is being sucked in is at a standstill. Air moves through the engine bay much better at speed. I see where you're coming from to test in worst case scenario to possibly mimic the real life scenario. Ultimately you're right about dynos not matching up very well. I have ITBs and a plenum which is much easier to fill at speed. Dynos always show it low. I had a dyno showing 287whp when all the weight and speed, along with comparison to other vehicles was actually around 310whp on a hot day. I guess it won me some races because I can under report my power 😂 Another issue my car has is the sensor reporting accurate IATs from heatsoak in the sensor itself. This retards timing a degree or two. I don't think the air actually heats up 10 degrees when moving so quickly into the plenum.
@@andyfreeman6865 The problem with engine bays is that there's a huge heater warming the air so even a slow corner is enough to warm up the air that will then be sucked into the engine. Even following a car up close results in warmer temperatures with cold air feeds from the bumper! I never had IAT heatsoak in my applications btw, perhaps you could try moving it up top to mitigate the issue!
What is this, is this youtube? Someone just go straight to the meat of the video without a 20 min vlog before and after?? Keep doing what you're doing, youtube needs people like you.
@@robersniper I've had quite a lot of dyno time over the years. I'd prefer to test and not guess. Buying mods or doing mods without knowing if they really work, to me, is time and money wasted.
This is super interesting, especially the last intake manifold with the giant plenum volume. You'd think based off conventional wisdom around plenums that it's all gains increasing the plenum volume, but this is the 3rd time I've seen power lost with increased plenum size. Hot Rod/Engine masters did a test w/triple the plenum volume and they lost a bit of power as well, and I did a plenum volume test on my turbo harley where I went from 800cc to 1600cc plenum volume (.5 of displacement to 1.5x displacement....which "should' make a big improvement) and the bike went .05-.1 slower in timed 40-80mph runs. 🤷
I did some CFD on air boxes a few years ago, and you might be able to measure a difference with filters fitted. If you have a single filter each cylinder gets to use work done by the previous cylinder pulling air through the filter, but if it is a filter per cylinder each cylinder does all the work on its own. Depending on the filter it can be
Great job as allways! Moving car will create ram-air effect, with the right intake placement. This will help at higher car speeds and lower engine revs (higher gears). F1 cars used to create (with all the restrictions, super low gearing, and air-hungry engines) approx 5% higher air pressure in air-box, than ambient. I wish You 1M subs, You well deserved it!
@@borutgoli840 You are incorrect. The ram air effect exists at subsonic speeds. In fact, even a ramjet engine will operate beyond about Mach 0.8. Do not pretend to be an expert in aerodynamics when you have only watched a couple of UA-cam videos about it. The minimum airspeed for which ram air compression occurs at depends on the geometry of the ram intake. Lower airspeed intakes tend to be of wide diameter initially and reduce down to a smaller diameter, and need to be fairly long to reduce the amount of air that simply flows around the edges of the intake, reducing the increase in pressure. Their real purpose at these low speeds is to reduce the pressure drop due to large kg/s of air intaken at high engine speeds, boosting the high-end torque. There is also a small compressing effect at lower engine speeds, but this is quite small (as you correctly predicted) because at low airspeeds the air tends to backflow rather than compress, but as I mentioned this can be designed around. That said, the true purpose is to boost high RPM power at high airspeeds, not to boost low end power at high airspeeds.
When I was looking at ITBs for my Miata I talked with a friend of mine about it who had experience. Here mentioned he'd found a some test data that showed the distance from the start of the bellmouth to the interior wall of the plenum/air box can make a big difference. IIRC they found anything with 3-4in (75-100mm) of the bellmouth started to effect flow in 1L bike engines. Even just an full length filter (i.e. Pipercross) close to the bellmouth caused reduced flow.
Very solid tests. I do feel that air box with the extended pipes out the front is missing the major advantage, which is air being forced in while driving. So these numbers could be higher.
Good consistency on the dyno, its not always you see that. If you wanted to alter the power curve some alteration to the plenum volume would probably make a difference. For inspiration check out the ol supertouring engines, some of them where mounted in-line like audis.
I have a set of ITB's for my Miata that I'll be installing this winter and I've been pondering putting them in an airbox to see what benefits it might have in the mid-range and if I could broaden the power band.....you just answered that question for me. What are your thoughts about an air box, with properly sized horns inside that? Do you think the lack of airhorns on the Turbo manifold contributed to the loss of power across the board? I thought the common plenum might flow well enough at the top end to match the ITB's, but that definitely wasn't the case. Great videos, I love the tests you do.
The turbo inlet has similar shaped bellmouths inside it. theres a video showing it getting built. The runners are a bit shorter, along with the smaller volume and inlet hole, all adds up to the loss. it works well for its intended purpose
Can you make a sort of "twintake" for a single throttle body (Like Forge did for the 2.0 tfsi)... I was thinking of a combo between a cold air intake and a short ram intake connected with some Y pipe or something. You know what i mean :-) Would be interesting.
Hilux turbo inlet + someone's money maker getting busted. Paying good money for someone's bad idea that loooks cool. Reminds me of after market differential covers w/ odd flat spots and other strange internal geometry that actully inhibits the flow and useful properties of the gear lube. Buying a bad idea being pushed by someone trying to make money, regardless of product effectiveness.
Awesome mate, that's the best yt channel I've ever seen :) why do you think the Hilux intake reduced the power while the the wooden one didn't have any impact in comparison to the open trumpets
will be the plenum volume. or more so any restriction to the inlet runners. even a tiny amount seems to have an effect on big cam overlap engine. I tested the old hilux inlet/ plenum on it also and was even worse, until cut the roof out of it, so was basically open with just the sides on it
U said u concluded that the biggest airbox was best .. yes mist likely .. for eg .. the VL group A commodore had 8 trumpets in a airbox .. they found it had most power without an airbox .. so when they made the airbox, first what they did was lower a flat board from top till the power started to drop. .then from each side .. then added throttle bodies of various sizes till max power was found .. Prettty much confirms bigger is better.. But there is no gain once over a certain size
I love the research that you do! I would like to ask you if you are willing to try something different and test out 4 expansion chambered intake runners, it should give a boost effect like acis does if my theory is right and if you can make it the right size and shape to have the resonance boost at the wanted rpm. If i had a dyno and a tigweldingpost + a stand alone ecu and itbs, then that is what i would be testing out all the time. I looked on internet and i can barely find info on this idea so it could be a real premier if you are willing to try this and if it will work
Ive been testing a few things in the background, one of which has a chamber. having the chamber in the runners seems to smooth out the power curve, gets rid of the peaks and dips. but have limited testing on it so far.
This is cool to see. I wonder what the air flow I'd like on each Throttle body with the same test. How much the front cylinder is pulling compared to the back.
This testing is really helpful, you've done a great job. Interesting to prove it's the bottom end that's hardest to get right. So many theories and books and experts and then there's the dyno !
This is pretty pointless its more about the intake runners ability to accelerate the air than the minor restrictions of that airbox he made. Might have had a lesson in there about restrictions if he did something smaller 3 inches, more than enough for any 4 banger
Congratulations for your test method. ! cold air is the only advantage but with an air box you could add an helmholtz resonator ( if necessary of course ,, lol )
What is this even supposed to "prove" ??? 🤔 The only thing you're doing is testing whether or not 3" is restricting airflow to your engine or not. 🤷♂️ If you want difference in power curve, you need to add/subtract on the total length from the valve seats to the end of the velocity stacks. Long is better for mid range, short is better for high revs. Everything you do after the stacks (like in this video) is only testing the restriction of the things you're putting there, it will never gain any power from it, only lose power if opening is too small/restrictive.
Hey, I wanted to see what effects the airbox itself had. so was trying keep the inlet air temps the same. The difference in power from air temp could be calculated fairly easily. But will keep it in mind to do a test on in the future
One piece of data missing: With the airbox are the cylinders all getting the same air? Are there rich/lean holes? It would be nice to see on a flow bench how much the airbox created cylinder imbalance. I wonder if those dips at 5k and 6k that went away on the open itb test were caused by this.
Try curving the trumpets like the stock 20 valve air box setup. I suspect the trumpets are too close to the airbox wall. I think you need some a couple of inches of space between the runner bell mouth and the airbox..
I am 100% satisfied with your testing. Your videos are so entertaining and no bs. I've just bought an ignis sport and have been going over all the possibilities to do a cold air i take or replace the panel filter etc etc and have decided f it and just stuck a k an n almost straight to the tb. Does the job and was the cheapest option.
Hold on A , 4 in hole but the trumpet at the BOX without the pipes . We never saw that . Or 2 Two in holes & 2 Three in holes And with pipes attached and without and only the trumpets at the box .
One thing to note is that a lot of driveability is not gained from proper pulse tuning, but from avoiding the cockups from anti-tuning. This tends to smooth torque curves. I think it would be a worthwhile test to make a plenum that had an internal texture that disrupted waves rather than reflected them, think small egg carton texture or hammer finish on steroids. Also I'm going to go look at other videos for your headers. Damn sexy but they look entirely too large diameter for the power you are making Subscribed. You're doing awesome work
Very interesting dyno tests, did you tune the ecu each time you change something? If not the results should be greater special on open throttles. Air box’s for ItBs it’s a black art 🔥
Well that was fairly interesting! Seems nothing makes any statistical difference outside of running no airbox. I have often wondered about adding plenum volume to stack injection/itb's or Weber carbs. I don't see this test as authoritative however it was still very plain to see the effect on this engine at least. The methodology was pretty good too I thought. On another matter, it is generally accepted in drag racing in NA classes that properly designed scoops (boundary layer etc) only start generating a true ram effect over 90mph/150kmh. This shows that those 4x4 ram scoops on snorkels are just bell mouthed water separators - and for the most part they do quite a good job with rain at least and you get cold air so all is good but they're not big enough to work as a true ram scoop at any speed. Some factories used to issue technical bulletins to sponsored teams, back in the day of factory participation in 'organized acceleration trails' to richen carb jets 2 or 3 stages. This shows that true ram scoops do actually work. Ram scoops with electronic injection should self compensate.
Shorter ITB'S and a smaller Hilux will be most optimal, for that fuel setup. With that you can put a much extension before the Hilux as you want. If HP is the goal, air flow speed is before volume of air. Definetly worth looking into each cilinder individualy when comparing air induction, ITB alone are not for sure to deliver equal flow. Thank you for sharing your fun.
10/10 for this experimental work. These tests results have shown ther eis no significant gain or loss either mods. The moral story is do not touch your air box, only if you want some noise...
Just make a bigger hole or big opening for the airbox...with big ducting routing fresh air into the airbox... With pipe, it becames a flow restrictor... there is power dip at higher rpm
Yeah I didn't go bigger in the pipes as wanted to see if there was any advantage in the airbox and feed pipes themselves. If have to go to 5 or 6" feed pipe and an even bigger box. to match the power of open throttles. its just a way of directing cold air. and we already know cold air makes more power
Hey man, i just noticed the top strut mounts of your truck have three bolts. Do you know if these top mounts are common among toyotas? A '77 celica im looking need these parts to be replaced, and those look identical. Would be great if toyota share the same top struts mounts among them old cars.
most of the old toyota stuff is 3 bolt. but they pretty much have a different pcd for for each chassis, so not a lot directly swaps over. im not sure if anything else will fit your chassis, maybe ae86 stuff is worth a look also
I read an SAE research paper which investigated plenum volume vs. power. It showed that a larger and larger plenum made more power. About 8 times the engine's displacement is where the point of diminishing returns is. It would be interesting to know the volume of your plenum vs. the engine's displacement.
Was there noticeable change in idle quality between open itb's and airbox? What I have understood is the shared volume in airbox will mess up exhaust gas flows when having large overlap, because now there is suddenly vacuum in intake from other cylinders instead of open air?
Not really an issue on itb's, since the throttles are post airbox/plenum. On single throttle its definitely an issue, since the whole thing is under vacuum. bigger the plenum size worse it gets.
Unless the engine is tuned with no airbox and you ran out of air in the tune, ie: plenty of spark & fuel still --and-- the dynamometer is used to show which of the different plenum set-ups is the least restrictive, this test will always show similar and consistent results. In other words, changing airflow will only work if the ECU knows there is more air.
Ignition timing is the same. all my videos I correct the afr if needed. running different fuel ratio doesn't really effect power within reason. I have a video on this
I’d like to see VDs which are 1/3 longer and shorter to see how 2nd and 4th order pulse waves affect the s curve below 3k rpm. Likewise for a 38mm stack vs 44mm stack. Fascinated
nice test.. on my 2012 accord v6..I kept the stock box, and just removed the button resonator pieces, and placed 4 inch piping in fender well running to front of car with a 6 inch velocity stack. also changed to a better flowing filter..same concept. the box that comes with that car has a velocity stack in the cover that leads to the piping to the engine as well
Torque is roller torque, so irreverent apart from doing comparisons on same vehicle. power is correct. My "stock" blacktop 20v makes 137hp on this dyno. which yes is slightly on the high side for a blacktop, but it has a little head work done to it.
Id like to see all these tests done with the hood down like a real world scenario where you will be inhaling hot air with just the ITBs, I always prefer with an enclosed airbox with propper cold air induction. Nevertheless, awesome comparison. Love your vids. Keep it up.
hey, Yeah was more interested to see what the box done itself. so was trying to keep air temp same. We all know cold air make more power. This car usually runs a setup that sections off the whole intake side of the engine bay and feeds cold air though a big hole in front of car. so works like a massive cold air feed airbox. since in this vid found that bigger is best. will be going back to that setup once have made the optimal runner setup.
Now, next is going to have to be variable runner lengths. You could use a valve to swith to a different path. Use a valve to ADD a shorter path to a longer one. And then see if you can get a linear actuator to continuously vary the trumpet lengths.
Nicely done test! However you should have run the tests with the hood closed to see how the throttle bodies performed while sucking hot air from the engine bay. I ran similar tests on a 'busa powered track car, mostly to test different airbox sizes and the difference was huge. constant 70\74°c IATs vs 6°c above ambient is no joke. The airbox is also easier to pressurize at speed and those 0.2psi play a little role as well at the top end of the power curve, something that's hard to replicate on a dyno... but relatively easy to calculate with a properly scaled MAP sensor and some fuel trim\afr\timing datalogs.
Thanks. Thought i had a pinned comment at the top explaining why i tested with the bonnet/hood open, but it seems to have mysteriously disappeared. anyway, I was trying to keep the temps the same, to see the effects of the airbox itself. ya know science says change one thing at a time. The conclusion i come to, was to run the biggest airbox and feed pipe possible (even bigger than what i ran) Or some other way to direct cold air to the inlet runners. In my case, this car usual runs some panels that black off the whole intake side of engine bay. with a big hole beside radiator that feeds cold air. Just it doesnt fit anymore since changed the intake about 50 times. If I ever decided on a intake runner. will go back to that setup.
@@Garage4age Your approach is commendable, it's just that some things work as a system so changing one component at a time may detract from the results' irl relevance.
Also keep in mind that the shape of the airbox itself plays a huge role in delivering the same air to each cylinder, in my case I could start off with a boxy section that progressively widens and narrows up to the bellmouths, something you clearly couldn't to given the available space. You could perhaps move the airbox up front, leaving only some form of plenum to close to the ITBs to see how the power delivery changes. Of course if you can shield the ITBs from the rest of the engine bay while delivering a cold stream of air to them then the point becomes pretty much moot since you're effectively using and almost sealed, huge airbox! The math is out there but toying around with airbox sizes etc is a fun experiment nonetheless. On my NA, high revving and over-square engine the difference between the hotter and smaller airbox and this one amounts to a whopping 12hp at 11k rpm...
Keep up the good work, i just subscribed to your channel and i'm loving it already!
@@TheDementedMonkeys The only time hot air is being sucked in is at a standstill. Air moves through the engine bay much better at speed. I see where you're coming from to test in worst case scenario to possibly mimic the real life scenario. Ultimately you're right about dynos not matching up very well. I have ITBs and a plenum which is much easier to fill at speed. Dynos always show it low. I had a dyno showing 287whp when all the weight and speed, along with comparison to other vehicles was actually around 310whp on a hot day. I guess it won me some races because I can under report my power 😂 Another issue my car has is the sensor reporting accurate IATs from heatsoak in the sensor itself. This retards timing a degree or two. I don't think the air actually heats up 10 degrees when moving so quickly into the plenum.
@@andyfreeman6865 The problem with engine bays is that there's a huge heater warming the air so even a slow corner is enough to warm up the air that will then be sucked into the engine. Even following a car up close results in warmer temperatures with cold air feeds from the bumper! I never had IAT heatsoak in my applications btw, perhaps you could try moving it up top to mitigate the issue!
And they forgot to place the piping on the 4 ‘’ in the same direction as the 3 ‘’.. the 3e’’ was in the direction of the blower en the 4’’ wasn’t
What is this, is this youtube? Someone just go straight to the meat of the video without a 20 min vlog before and after?? Keep doing what you're doing, youtube needs people like you.
ah yes, the endless, all consuming, love-the-sound-of-my-own-voice need some people have for relentless blathering.
this is what you call real test and tune
finally, someone ACTUALLY testing their modifications
Not everyone has dynos at home
@@TheSaif78 but most people have dynos not that far from home.
I can garauntee if I had a dyno at home I'd be on that thing everyday
@@stevenross-watt8640 runing on a dyno is not free... Just to play around a little bit its not worth
@@robersniper I've had quite a lot of dyno time over the years. I'd prefer to test and not guess. Buying mods or doing mods without knowing if they really work, to me, is time and money wasted.
This is super interesting, especially the last intake manifold with the giant plenum volume. You'd think based off conventional wisdom around plenums that it's all gains increasing the plenum volume, but this is the 3rd time I've seen power lost with increased plenum size. Hot Rod/Engine masters did a test w/triple the plenum volume and they lost a bit of power as well, and I did a plenum volume test on my turbo harley where I went from 800cc to 1600cc plenum volume (.5 of displacement to 1.5x displacement....which "should' make a big improvement) and the bike went .05-.1 slower in timed 40-80mph runs. 🤷
MDF, pvc pipe and form ply. No welder required!
I did some CFD on air boxes a few years ago, and you might be able to measure a difference with filters fitted. If you have a single filter each cylinder gets to use work done by the previous cylinder pulling air through the filter, but if it is a filter per cylinder each cylinder does all the work on its own. Depending on the filter it can be
Very interesting as always. Thanks for doing these tests!
Interesting, very cool to have a dyno.
Meassuring is knowledge
Great job as allways!
Moving car will create ram-air effect, with the right intake placement.
This will help at higher car speeds and lower engine revs (higher gears).
F1 cars used to create (with all the restrictions, super low gearing, and air-hungry engines) approx 5% higher air pressure in air-box, than ambient.
I wish You 1M subs, You well deserved it!
Thanks. would love to test something like that. If only i had a wind tunnel to put the dyno in 😂
You are stupid as horse shit. Ram air effect occurs at mach speeds.
You can go 300 kph and you would gain no boost
@@borutgoli840 Calm down bro. maybe he has a 4age powered jet fighter
@@borutgoli840 You are incorrect. The ram air effect exists at subsonic speeds. In fact, even a ramjet engine will operate beyond about Mach 0.8.
Do not pretend to be an expert in aerodynamics when you have only watched a couple of UA-cam videos about it.
The minimum airspeed for which ram air compression occurs at depends on the geometry of the ram intake. Lower airspeed intakes tend to be of wide diameter initially and reduce down to a smaller diameter, and need to be fairly long to reduce the amount of air that simply flows around the edges of the intake, reducing the increase in pressure. Their real purpose at these low speeds is to reduce the pressure drop due to large kg/s of air intaken at high engine speeds, boosting the high-end torque.
There is also a small compressing effect at lower engine speeds, but this is quite small (as you correctly predicted) because at low airspeeds the air tends to backflow rather than compress, but as I mentioned this can be designed around. That said, the true purpose is to boost high RPM power at high airspeeds, not to boost low end power at high airspeeds.
Loved this Video. ALWAYS a learning experience no matter the results.
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ 👍😎
Thanks for taking the time, running a NA race car on our team were always looking for any kind of HP we can get.
You’re the best. Seriously. Thanks for this.
Continuing to kill it with the results
benim garajımıda sayfamdan inceleyebilirsiniz çalışmalarınız çok güzel takipteyim başarılar👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
When I was looking at ITBs for my Miata I talked with a friend of mine about it who had experience. Here mentioned he'd found a some test data that showed the distance from the start of the bellmouth to the interior wall of the plenum/air box can make a big difference. IIRC they found anything with 3-4in (75-100mm) of the bellmouth started to effect flow in 1L bike engines. Even just an full length filter (i.e. Pipercross) close to the bellmouth caused reduced flow.
Very solid tests.
I do feel that air box with the extended pipes out the front is missing the major advantage, which is air being forced in while driving. So these numbers could be higher.
Air box is better with the aerodynamic forced induction.
Try extremely long pipe faced upwards, like 10 meter long straight into air
ua-cam.com/video/ONbxhT54nv4/v-deo.html
А нахуя это все???? Разница будет, если вы длину самих впускных ранеров измените.
Good consistency on the dyno, its not always you see that. If you wanted to alter the power curve some alteration to the plenum volume would probably make a difference. For inspiration check out the ol supertouring engines, some of them where mounted in-line like audis.
çok iyi deney..acim hava filtresi en iyisi
Love your work brother
No bullshit testing back to back. Showing just how important it is having data.
God bless.
I have a set of ITB's for my Miata that I'll be installing this winter and I've been pondering putting them in an airbox to see what benefits it might have in the mid-range and if I could broaden the power band.....you just answered that question for me. What are your thoughts about an air box, with properly sized horns inside that? Do you think the lack of airhorns on the Turbo manifold contributed to the loss of power across the board? I thought the common plenum might flow well enough at the top end to match the ITB's, but that definitely wasn't the case. Great videos, I love the tests you do.
The turbo inlet has similar shaped bellmouths inside it. theres a video showing it getting built. The runners are a bit shorter, along with the smaller volume and inlet hole, all adds up to the loss. it works well for its intended purpose
Can you make a sort of "twintake" for a single throttle body (Like Forge did for the 2.0 tfsi)... I was thinking of a combo between a cold air intake and a short ram intake connected with some Y pipe or something. You know what i mean :-) Would be interesting.
Hilux turbo inlet + someone's money maker getting busted. Paying good money for someone's bad idea that loooks cool. Reminds me of after market differential covers w/ odd flat spots and other strange internal geometry that actully inhibits the flow and useful properties of the gear lube. Buying a bad idea being pushed by someone trying to make money, regardless of product effectiveness.
Awesome mate, that's the best yt channel I've ever seen :) why do you think the Hilux intake reduced the power while the the wooden one didn't have any impact in comparison to the open trumpets
will be the plenum volume. or more so any restriction to the inlet runners. even a tiny amount seems to have an effect on big cam overlap engine. I tested the old hilux inlet/ plenum on it also and was even worse, until cut the roof out of it, so was basically open with just the sides on it
U said u concluded that the biggest airbox was best .. yes mist likely .. for eg .. the VL group A commodore had 8 trumpets in a airbox .. they found it had most power without an airbox .. so when they made the airbox, first what they did was lower a flat board from top till the power started to drop. .then from each side .. then added throttle bodies of various sizes till max power was found ..
Prettty much confirms bigger is better.. But there is no gain once over a certain size
Interesting. Unfortunately the best looking thing isn’t the best performer.
? the open throttles performed equally to the ait box
beshj what do mean? 4” hole and open headers made more power over most of the curve than Hilux intake.
@@tiitsaul9036 4 inch hole airbox* open headers are the best looking and performed equally to air box, hilux intake was the worst.....
The open throt. are the best looking one for me and yet it is also some what the best performer among all things he tested.
Bryan Lei Porsado I can not disagree with that. I was talking about hilux intake tho.
Try to drill 1/32 hold with a 45 degré every 5mm around the base of Trumpet vélocité stack that should prevent the air stiking on the Side of the wall
Now I want a 4age setup 😁
I love the research that you do!
I would like to ask you if you are willing to try something different and test out 4 expansion chambered intake runners, it should give a boost effect like acis does if my theory is right and if you can make it the right size and shape to have the resonance boost at the wanted rpm. If i had a dyno and a tigweldingpost
+ a stand alone ecu and itbs, then that is what i would be testing out all the time. I looked on internet and i can barely find info on this idea so it could be a real premier if you are willing to try this and if it will work
Ive been testing a few things in the background, one of which has a chamber. having the chamber in the runners seems to smooth out the power curve, gets rid of the peaks and dips. but have limited testing on it so far.
This is cool to see. I wonder what the air flow I'd like on each Throttle body with the same test. How much the front cylinder is pulling compared to the back.
wow...this is what i wanted to see.....thank u so much sir....continue to make us enlightened ......respect from Bangladesh
This testing is really helpful, you've done a great job. Interesting to prove it's the bottom end that's hardest to get right. So many theories and books and experts and then there's the dyno !
This test is amazing! Thank you for all your hard work!!!!
This is pretty pointless its more about the intake runners ability to accelerate the air than the minor restrictions of that airbox he made. Might have had a lesson in there about restrictions if he did something smaller 3 inches, more than enough for any 4 banger
Next step would be this kind of airbox: power-plus.be/site/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/3.png
Yes this is it...everything is true...thanks for doing this bro
AMAZING JOB !!! All my respect for your work !!!
Will you get the same results using ITB or carbs? Maybe bike carbs or side drafts?
Please inlet main port upgrade make turbo jet fan broo..
4:30 - did you time travel, how can it loop back on itself in the very beginning of the run?
One of my favorite UA-cam channels!
The best is when u test it on the road,really diff than on dyno..air flow, multi friction.
Congratulations for your test method. ! cold air is the only advantage but with an air box you could add an helmholtz resonator ( if necessary of course ,, lol )
Can u tested double velocity stack? Like long and short in one velocity?
to me it seems like you found out that the inlet before the throttle bodies is not your primary restriction.
What is this even supposed to "prove" ??? 🤔
The only thing you're doing is testing whether or not 3" is restricting airflow to your engine or not. 🤷♂️
If you want difference in power curve, you need to add/subtract on the total length from the valve seats to the end of the velocity stacks.
Long is better for mid range, short is better for high revs.
Everything you do after the stacks (like in this video) is only testing the restriction of the things you're putting there, it will never gain any power from it, only lose power if opening is too small/restrictive.
Yep, this was viewer requested. see my other vids on runner lengths and diameter
Good job. 4 inch hole + a better intake scoop would be great
Interesting, could you repeat the test with the hood closed to see the intake heat incident on the power ?
Hey, I wanted to see what effects the airbox itself had. so was trying keep the inlet air temps the same. The difference in power from air temp could be calculated fairly easily. But will keep it in mind to do a test on in the future
It is the shape more then the volume of the plenum that will cause changes.
One piece of data missing: With the airbox are the cylinders all getting the same air? Are there rich/lean holes? It would be nice to see on a flow bench how much the airbox created cylinder imbalance. I wonder if those dips at 5k and 6k that went away on the open itb test were caused by this.
Try curving the trumpets like the stock 20 valve air box setup. I suspect the trumpets are too close to the airbox wall. I think you need some a couple of inches of space between the runner bell mouth and the airbox..
I am 100% satisfied with your testing. Your videos are so entertaining and no bs.
I've just bought an ignis sport and have been going over all the possibilities to do a cold air i take or replace the panel filter etc etc and have decided f it and just stuck a k an n almost straight to the tb. Does the job and was the cheapest option.
Do a warm air intake just to see what it shows. Better atomization of fuel?
So in other words noting really makes a difference..
Maybe the wood chips are increasing performance?
Super no nonsense testing way 2 go double thumbs up 4 u!
Hold on A , 4 in hole but the trumpet at the
BOX without the pipes .
We never saw that .
Or 2 Two in holes
& 2 Three in holes
And with pipes attached and without and only the trumpets at the box .
You are very generous to share this. thanks
Didn't this same car make about 130 whp with a regular intake manifold? It makes 155 with ITB's. Am I right?
This is a different engine to the "gold 4age" in my later vids. it has a lot more done to it. makes over 200whp as per numbers in vid
One thing to note is that a lot of driveability is not gained from proper pulse tuning, but from avoiding the cockups from anti-tuning. This tends to smooth torque curves.
I think it would be a worthwhile test to make a plenum that had an internal texture that disrupted waves rather than reflected them, think small egg carton texture or hammer finish on steroids.
Also I'm going to go look at other videos for your headers. Damn sexy but they look entirely too large diameter for the power you are making
Subscribed. You're doing awesome work
Very interesting dyno tests, did you tune the ecu each time you change something? If not the results should be greater special on open throttles. Air box’s for ItBs it’s a black art 🔥
yeh is tuned if required. Will have a vid up tomorrow showing affect of afr on power
Well that was fairly interesting!
Seems nothing makes any statistical difference outside of running no airbox.
I have often wondered about adding plenum volume to stack injection/itb's or Weber carbs. I don't see this test as authoritative however it was still very plain to see the effect on this engine at least. The methodology was pretty good too I thought.
On another matter, it is generally accepted in drag racing in NA classes that properly designed scoops (boundary layer etc) only start generating a true ram effect over 90mph/150kmh. This shows that those 4x4 ram scoops on snorkels are just bell mouthed water separators - and for the most part they do quite a good job with rain at least and you get cold air so all is good but they're not big enough to work as a true ram scoop at any speed.
Some factories used to issue technical bulletins to sponsored teams, back in the day of factory participation in 'organized acceleration trails' to richen carb jets 2 or 3 stages. This shows that true ram scoops do actually work. Ram scoops with electronic injection should self compensate.
Clean demo for tuners.Thanks
Very interesting indeed,
So if you used bigger throttle bodies, longer stacks and a 5/6" hole you'd probably have a very nice line there
Awesome as always. Thank you for your great content.
Great job! It is very clarifying. It helps not to waste money in stupid mods
Shorter ITB'S and a smaller Hilux will be most optimal, for that fuel setup. With that you can put a much extension before the Hilux as you want. If HP is the goal, air flow speed is before volume of air. Definetly worth looking into each cilinder individualy when comparing air induction, ITB alone are not for sure to deliver equal flow. Thank you for sharing your fun.
you are lacking the rammed air effect with the airbox...which can only be done on a track.
10/10 for this experimental work. These tests results have shown ther eis no significant gain or loss either mods. The moral story is do not touch your air box, only if you want some noise...
no air box and call it a day.
Thanks for doing this very interesting and great content 👍🏻
What about testing a tapered airbox vs ones that are same size. I hear this helps air move into the last two trumpets.
Cone would force more air into throttle at running speed than it can pull on its own.
This how to avoid wrong mod in your car
Just make a bigger hole or big opening for the airbox...with big ducting routing fresh air into the airbox...
With pipe, it becames a flow restrictor... there is power dip at higher rpm
Yeah I didn't go bigger in the pipes as wanted to see if there was any advantage in the airbox and feed pipes themselves. If have to go to 5 or 6" feed pipe and an even bigger box. to match the power of open throttles. its just a way of directing cold air. and we already know cold air makes more power
Hey man, i just noticed the top strut mounts of your truck have three bolts. Do you know if these top mounts are common among toyotas? A '77 celica im looking need these parts to be replaced, and those look identical. Would be great if toyota share the same top struts mounts among them old cars.
most of the old toyota stuff is 3 bolt. but they pretty much have a different pcd for for each chassis, so not a lot directly swaps over. im not sure if anything else will fit your chassis, maybe ae86 stuff is worth a look also
@@Garage4age thanks a lot friend, i'll take a look.
not even a question. F1 figured this out 40 plus years ago.
4" trumpet please, for sound purpose sounded wicked.
I would go with the airbox and a 4 inch hole plus an air filter.
Now, what if there was a initial plenum, in a tapered shape, guiding equally between the ITB in the second plenum ?
I read an SAE research paper which investigated plenum volume vs. power. It showed that a larger and larger plenum made more power. About 8 times the engine's displacement is where the point of diminishing returns is. It would be interesting to know the volume of your plenum vs. the engine's displacement.
from memory it was 9-10L and 1.6L engine. so getting close to those numbers. I may have written a more accurate measurement in the comments somewhere
You forgot to do the no hole.
Was there noticeable change in idle quality between open itb's and airbox? What I have understood is the shared volume in airbox will mess up exhaust gas flows when having large overlap, because now there is suddenly vacuum in intake from other cylinders instead of open air?
Not really an issue on itb's, since the throttles are post airbox/plenum. On single throttle its definitely an issue, since the whole thing is under vacuum. bigger the plenum size worse it gets.
How about a length rpm adjusted runners?🤔
Unless the engine is tuned with no airbox and you ran out of air in the tune, ie: plenty of spark & fuel still --and-- the dynamometer is used to show which of the different plenum set-ups is the least restrictive, this test will always show similar and consistent results. In other words, changing airflow will only work if the ECU knows there is more air.
Ignition timing is the same. all my videos I correct the afr if needed. running different fuel ratio doesn't really effect power within reason. I have a video on this
I’d like to see VDs which are 1/3 longer and shorter to see how 2nd and 4th order pulse waves affect the s curve below 3k rpm. Likewise for a 38mm stack vs 44mm stack. Fascinated
check out my other vids. got most of that covered
Went about the wrong way. the runner lengths is what you are suppose to play with
yep, maybe watch some of my other videos
nice test.. on my 2012 accord v6..I kept the stock box, and just removed the button resonator pieces, and placed 4 inch piping in fender well running to front of car with a 6 inch velocity stack. also changed to a better flowing filter..same concept. the box that comes with that car has a velocity stack in the cover that leads to the piping to the engine as well
You might find that 3inch is too big to really see the effect. Have you done the same test with smaller diameters?
Found it ! Thanks a lot love the channel
Is that a carina I spot?
Is it just me or is the numbers way off for a NA 4age? Over 200hp and 400nm at the wheels?? Other tham that a great video!
Torque is roller torque, so irreverent apart from doing comparisons on same vehicle. power is correct. My "stock" blacktop 20v makes 137hp on this dyno. which yes is slightly on the high side for a blacktop, but it has a little head work done to it.
@@Garage4age that explains it! Just sounded to good to be true with that hp/tq combo! Amazing numbers anyways😁
they just look cool. lol.
AAAAAAAAAH 1-2 WHP GAAAAIN!!!!!!!!!!!! :O
Can you try to run the trumpet n°2 & 3 longer than the n°1 & 4 ??
Id like to see all these tests done with the hood down like a real world scenario where you will be inhaling hot air with just the ITBs, I always prefer with an enclosed airbox with propper cold air induction. Nevertheless, awesome comparison. Love your vids. Keep it up.
hey, Yeah was more interested to see what the box done itself. so was trying to keep air temp same. We all know cold air make more power. This car usually runs a setup that sections off the whole intake side of the engine bay and feeds cold air though a big hole in front of car. so works like a massive cold air feed airbox. since in this vid found that bigger is best. will be going back to that setup once have made the optimal runner setup.
Now, next is going to have to be variable runner lengths.
You could use a valve to swith to a different path.
Use a valve to ADD a shorter path to a longer one.
And then see if you can get a linear actuator to continuously vary the trumpet lengths.
Variable or 2 stage diameter looks like it will have more gains over variable length.