The Hellbringer is my choice as well Aaron. It's an underrated chassis because people tend to look at it as a heavy rather than a large medium. In a star with Shadow Cats, Mongrels, and other Clan medium Mechs, the Hellbringer absolutely shines. In a heavy star, it's often lacking in both relative firepower and armor coverage, a Summoner would be a better fit for its longevity. Excellent video as always!
Suggestion: Start using some sort of art for these videos during your intro to each Mech (ie whilst doing your lore intro to each mech show some art from Sarna or something. If you're worried about strikes (which you shouldnt get anyways as its transformative in nature doing these reports) reach out to catalyst and im sure they will be happy to give you written approval. Just a thought.
As someone still gettkng a grasp of all the mechs and gameplay aspects of Battletech, this has to be one of my favorite style of videos that I've watched from DFA
One of the guys I played Battletech with in high school loved to play Caesars. I think he had me play one a few times as well. I remember it being pretty effective. I also own two of the minis, but I don't think I've ever actually fielded them. Got them painted at GenCon in a lance of 2 Caesars and 2 Commandos, painted red with Davion decals. Not sure what unit they are supposed to be. Thanks for the video Aaron. Cheers!
I have found that the Caesar to been an unexpected, unpleasant surprise to the enemy in one area most people don't consider--if someone decides to throw battle armor or other small fast units at a Caesar, they usually don't enjoy the experience. I've had people try to crack the egg on the cheap, so to speak, and discover the hard way that it absolutely will burn holes in light hovertank platoons or enemy BA squads with surprising capability. The Loki-B is okay at this due to fishing for motive crits with the LBX and SRMs, but if a Caesar stops a Harasser dead on its fans, that Harasser *is* going to be reduced to a smoking hole in the ground next turn while the Loki might take a few turns to score enough crits to kill.
I always enjoy the lore and background on the 'Mechs in the "Battlytics" series. I wasn't that familiar with the Caesar, but I have some worries about using it with all the engine kill problems. I suspect I'll stick with the Hellbringer.
The Hellbringer B loses its lower arm actuators because when an Omnimech uses omnipods to mount an autocannon, gauss rifle, or PPC in the arms, you're forced to remove the lower arm and hand actuators by the rules. Hellbringers that have other kinds of arm weapons will still have the lower arm actuators.
I'm taking the Hellbringer every time, especially if playing games where its agreed you're allowed to swap out components to suit the mission or personal taste, like Omnimechs were intended for and is one of their strongest attributes...
The bv points are made with the pilots ALL being a 4/5 gunnery/piloting. If u give the Hellbringer the normal veteran pilot 3/4 rating you have to change the value by 1.25
The Ceaser needs to drop a heat sink to put armour in the side torso , then it'd be great . Not a Loki fan too paper , if I played clans and wanted electronic warfare I'd take a light omnimech
Six minutes in and I'm going to guess the Clanner doesn't look so good in the end. That armor is paper thin for its tonnage. 8:20 There's a tendency to stick extra heat sinks on Clan mechs that use XL engines because they're fairly likely to spend part of a game with two engine hits and a sudden +10 heat on top of any sinks lost when one side torso falls off. Starting with some spare heat capacity helps them stay dangerous when mangled. Doesn't explain the Caesar's excess dissipation, but maybe they just like to make sure their beer stays cool in the cockpit mini-fridge during combat. 16:00-ish How much does the Hellbringer's damage loss charateristic (and efficiency) improve if you find room for an extra ton of gauss ammo, I wonder? Running the big gun dry has got to be a big chunk of that loss.
Love the time stamped comments 😁 was sort of reflective of what I thought going thru the data... and I bet the HB would see a big jump with more gauss ammo.
XLs don’t scare me quite so much. I actually have to lean toward the Caesar personally, especially in a head to head fight. The higher chance of piloting rolls and the fact that the pretty dubious armor is gonna give earlier on the Hellbie kind of mitigates the XL engine. Yes, if a Caesar loses a side torso it’s dead. But a HellB isn’t in much better shape if damage focuses on the right torso either, since an incoming gauss round hits internal structure on either on the first hit, and there’s quite a bit of explody stuff on the right. Yes, CASE prevents it from migrating, but you’re still looking at the above piloting rolls and the fact that the pilot’s still gonna be hurting. I’d have to give the edge, ever so slightly, to the overhauled Cataphract.
I'm a big fan of the Cataphract chassis, and the Caesar is basically an optimized NewTech Cataphract variant. The Loki is the glassiest of glass cannons. I will not be surprised if the Caesar pulls the win here [speaking from the beginning of the video]. I'm happy to use the Cataphract sculpt for both designs (just as long as everyone at the table knows which it is). 1 ton of LB-V ammo on the Loki B, yes? Are you using cluster or slugs for it? Clan dueling/trial builds irritate me with their lack of ammo loads. If I were going to tweak the Caesar, I'd probably strip some heat sinks and add armor. You mostly need sinking capabilities for the ERPPC and a pair of MPLs. Anything more than that is unnecessary. If you trim down to 13 DHS you can get to 99.53% armor coverage and sink all the heat from the ERPPC, Gauss, two MPLs, and running. A further change could be to exchange the pulse lasers for ER versions, getting you more useful range out of the payload. You could do just the front guns, or all four, and in each case you could add another DHS or double up on the lasers for a given slot. Maybe switching to 3 forward ERMLs and 2 rear ERMLs with 3 additional DHS would be worth the loss of point blank accuracy. Post-vid conclusion: I just can't go with the Loki. Maybe a fire support build would work, but it's just too fragile. The Caesar at least should be able to handle a direct fire support role, where its armor (or lack thereof) will be a bit less of an issue. The classic pairing of an ERPPC and a Gauss is famous for a reason. The Loki B acts like it wants to be direct fire support, but then you have to consider its terrible ammo capacity and those ASRM6s and it's clearly meant as a duelist, not a battlefield configuration. Punch holes with the Gauss, then crit seek with the LB-AC. If the enemy closes, blast him with the missiles. You get 8 chances to blow the head off or breach armor, then you're entirely looking to exploit gaps and get those lucky TACs. This assumes cluster rounds for your ammo bin, naturally. Throw in the ability to make changes to a Battlemech that an Omnimech can't match (variants are much harder to make but can justify much larger changes) and I prefer the Caesar.
If it’s specifically between the Caesar and the Hellbringer Alt B, I’m picking the Caesar. The long range punch of gauss + ppc is too good especially with the limited ammo on the hellbringer. If it’s between _any_ hellbringer combo (because it’s an omnimech) then I’ll take the hellbringer. Caesar wins against the Alt B.
Great point and underscores the versatility of those omnis. It was a close one. I think with some basic tweaks (Caesar swaps mplas out for front arc mlas and more armor) the CES could be a monster.
Just about everything in tro 3050 was junk for the Innersphere, the Caesar and Axeman were 2 of the very few bright spots. Its not a mech I play much as I tend to play tech 1 games or late clan invasion civil war era where the tech gap is greatly diminished. Caesar almost feels like the prototype for the later absolutely stellar Falconer and Penetrator as both mechs seem to take its strengths to a whole new level
I dunno about you but if I have a weapon with limited ammo then I only let it fire at the best chance to hit. Maybe the sim should figure that in. These mechs have different roles. One is a IS heavy. It's more of an area denial. The other is a Skirmisher. It is best at hit and run, or staying at range. Your sims are interesting, but it doesn't figure in how it will be used.
It’s intended to benchmark the ‘mechs. I’d argue it would be misleading to benchmark the mechs only in their optimal use. Games don’t always unfold that way, or terrain prohibits it. Had some great dialog in the Avatar vs Sunmoner - someone was arguing the Summon could infinitely kite the AVO around. Have never played a game where this has happened 🙂 So, youre right, mechs dont always run straight at each other, but they also dont always get to pick the terms of the engagement. As for figuring our when it is best to shoot - it does that. It looks at the weapons available and decides the optimal mix. What it doesn’t do is “hold fire” because it could be dead next turn 😁
A fair point, but IMO, you have to have some sort of baseline and since everything is compared the same way, its enough to say "all things being equal, here's how things stack up". In every instance, someone is going to be able to play a mech in such a way that it is more or less efficient than the numbers suggest. Being honest, though, I actually watch these for the efficiency rating. All the other stuff is cool, but it ultimately serves that final analysis. Is this mech generally worth its BV? That's the primary question Battlelytics is attempting to answer.
Another close match-up to check against the Loki B would be the Helios Hel-3D. 5 tons lighter, similar load out, better armored, little slower but with jump jets, but 12 Mil c-bills cheaper.
I like the Loki prime. Dual er PPCs with a targeting computer. It's lacking in armour so I don't want it getting too close to the enemy. Likewise I'd keep the caesar at long range, the XL engine and light side torso armour makes it far too vulnerable for brawling in my opinion. The pulse lasers are good for defending against light mechs that try to run circles around you but aren't enough to justify putting it in a position where it will be targeted by lots of big guns. I'd stick that with a direct fire support lance.
Feel like if the Caesar dropped one or two of the rear facing Med Pulse or turned them all into regular Mediums the spare tonnage could be better armor coverage and level the Caesar up to being passable. I do have one on order, btw.
A solid comparison. The Caesar is easily Improved by downgrading the rear firing pulse lasers to mediums and adding 2 more tons armor. Later versions of the Caesar use a light engine (put in production at the start of the Fedcom Civil War in 3062, 2 extra critical slots instead of 3, but it only drops the weight of the engine by 25%), and carry an array of pulse lasers with a Heavy Gauss Rifle, or a Heavy PPC with Endo Steel and Light Ferro Fibrous armor, or a Snub Nosed PPC with a Gauss Rifle, ER Medium Lasers and MASC. The Loki has tons of different configs that get more balanced as the timeline progresses. It's low armor can be a handicap, but since it has more pod space then most other Clan heavies, it's built around using its speed and heavy firepower to act as a cavalry or force multiplier unit.
The Caesar seems to have more lasting power than the Hellbringer. The 8 gauss payload seems insufficient and as has already been mentioned it tends to be a glass cannon with that meager 8 tons of armor. All theory of course as I've never fielded either but if I had to choose I'd go the Caesar.
I always wondered why the Loki wasn't armored up more... it could easily have Ferro-Fibrous armor added as there is enough space for it and as it's already an expensive mech some extra protection would be better to protect it! I guess in my own head canon, I figured it would be a good choice to teach impulsive mechwarriors some sense of humility or caution. I mean, it can really dish out damagem but one good round of shooting can bringing it down.
It's designed for firepower over armor. In a lot of ways the Loki reminds me of a faster Warhammer. Average armor, lots of guns, more firepower than heat sink capacity. However, Jade Falcon later rebuilt a new version in 3122 called the Loki II. It slows it down the mech down to 4/6 and adds in Ferro-Fibrous armor, allowing the Loki II to carry 40 tons of pod space with far tougher armor.
Originally all the TRO3050 Clan mechs had endo/ferro/XL but were considered too overpowered. In terms of lore the Hellbringer was rushed into production just for its omni functionality.
Re: Arm actuators; in omnimech construction rules, if you have a big-bore weapon (PPC, gauss, LB10, LB20) in the arm then you can't have a lower actuator in that arm. I think the Hellbringer B can get a lower actuator in the LB5 arm (I think 10 is where you can't, I'd have to check), but Prime can't, for example, because it has a pair of PPCs. It was during that era, though, where the art was made independently of what they actually put on the mech, like how the Warhawk model and art has the LRM10 in the wrong place, so it still looks like it does. EDIT: Just checked, all autocannons prohibit lower arm actuators on omnis. And yeah, Clan seems to have been generally over-nerfed in terms of BV, looking at both this and your Avatar/Summoner review.
Please do a Battlytics for the Urbanmech. While yes it's a joke mech, I think it has merit to examine. At 504 BV, it has a very similar BV cost to a stinger 3-g, but Battlytics has so far shown almost all 3025 light mechs to be far behind the curve. Finding a cheap BV mech to offset heavier designs, while the cheap BV mech still meaningfully contributes, is the holy grail of light mechs--the Urbanmech might, MIGHT, be a contender.
there is a 5 ton weight difference here, that makes a massive difference. That and why not run longer range weapons on a clan heavy mech. Try comparing a vulture and see how this stacks up. Hell what about an Adder? Twin claner ERPPC in a 35 ton fast mech.
The Hellbringer is my choice as well Aaron. It's an underrated chassis because people tend to look at it as a heavy rather than a large medium. In a star with Shadow Cats, Mongrels, and other Clan medium Mechs, the Hellbringer absolutely shines. In a heavy star, it's often lacking in both relative firepower and armor coverage, a Summoner would be a better fit for its longevity. Excellent video as always!
Well said! And thanks as always for watching 👍
Suggestion: Start using some sort of art for these videos during your intro to each Mech (ie whilst doing your lore intro to each mech show some art from Sarna or something. If you're worried about strikes (which you shouldnt get anyways as its transformative in nature doing these reports) reach out to catalyst and im sure they will be happy to give you written approval. Just a thought.
Man, I used to love running Caesars back in the day. Ugly little bugger and that raygun ppc was super silly, but it got work done for me back then.
Ugly like a bulldog puppy.
As someone still gettkng a grasp of all the mechs and gameplay aspects of Battletech, this has to be one of my favorite style of videos that I've watched from DFA
Awesome! That is great to hear and thanks for the comment 🙂👍
Great video.I would like to see a Wolfhound vs Wolftrap mech review if possible.
That would be a solid battle.
Lower arm actuators come off and on depending on the configuration for Omnis. They are usually removed for ballistic weapons placed in the arms.
Big advantage when using arm-flipping for sure! 👍
These reports are insanely detailed. The best of the best for analysis.
Thanks! Glad you are enjoying - have a few real good ones lined up! You can also check out more at www.battlytics.com!
One of the guys I played Battletech with in high school loved to play Caesars. I think he had me play one a few times as well. I remember it being pretty effective. I also own two of the minis, but I don't think I've ever actually fielded them. Got them painted at GenCon in a lance of 2 Caesars and 2 Commandos, painted red with Davion decals. Not sure what unit they are supposed to be. Thanks for the video Aaron. Cheers!
Very cool! Need to dust that lance off and get it on the table 🙂👍
I have found that the Caesar to been an unexpected, unpleasant surprise to the enemy in one area most people don't consider--if someone decides to throw battle armor or other small fast units at a Caesar, they usually don't enjoy the experience. I've had people try to crack the egg on the cheap, so to speak, and discover the hard way that it absolutely will burn holes in light hovertank platoons or enemy BA squads with surprising capability. The Loki-B is okay at this due to fishing for motive crits with the LBX and SRMs, but if a Caesar stops a Harasser dead on its fans, that Harasser *is* going to be reduced to a smoking hole in the ground next turn while the Loki might take a few turns to score enough crits to kill.
I always enjoy the lore and background on the 'Mechs in the "Battlytics" series. I wasn't that familiar with the Caesar, but I have some worries about using it with all the engine kill problems. I suspect I'll stick with the Hellbringer.
The Hellbringer B loses its lower arm actuators because when an Omnimech uses omnipods to mount an autocannon, gauss rifle, or PPC in the arms, you're forced to remove the lower arm and hand actuators by the rules. Hellbringers that have other kinds of arm weapons will still have the lower arm actuators.
Can't wait for more classic battletech!
Never understood why this one didn't use a PPC instead of the LBX5 with all the heat sinks this one has
I'm taking the Hellbringer every time, especially if playing games where its agreed you're allowed to swap out components to suit the mission or personal taste, like Omnimechs were intended for and is one of their strongest attributes...
Love the Ceaser in my Steiner force. I tend to run it in pairs with either the Cestus or Penetrator.
Not 2 Atlas D's and a Awesome doesn't sound very Steiner to me...
I started Steiner for the light mechs. Mine are all painted up as 2nd Donegal Guard who prefer faster mobile warfare over the typical wall o' steel.
Very cool!
The bv points are made with the pilots ALL being a 4/5 gunnery/piloting. If u give the Hellbringer the normal veteran pilot 3/4 rating you have to change the value by 1.25
It’s all accounted for in the efficiency and the math.
The Ceaser needs to drop a heat sink to put armour in the side torso , then it'd be great . Not a Loki fan too paper , if I played clans and wanted electronic warfare I'd take a light omnimech
Agree!
Six minutes in and I'm going to guess the Clanner doesn't look so good in the end. That armor is paper thin for its tonnage.
8:20 There's a tendency to stick extra heat sinks on Clan mechs that use XL engines because they're fairly likely to spend part of a game with two engine hits and a sudden +10 heat on top of any sinks lost when one side torso falls off. Starting with some spare heat capacity helps them stay dangerous when mangled. Doesn't explain the Caesar's excess dissipation, but maybe they just like to make sure their beer stays cool in the cockpit mini-fridge during combat.
16:00-ish How much does the Hellbringer's damage loss charateristic (and efficiency) improve if you find room for an extra ton of gauss ammo, I wonder? Running the big gun dry has got to be a big chunk of that loss.
Love the time stamped comments 😁 was sort of reflective of what I thought going thru the data... and I bet the HB would see a big jump with more gauss ammo.
I'd much rather take medium lasers over IS MPL's. That plus adding more armor and the Ceasar gets much better.
Something has gone very... Strangely when the Hellbringer is more resilient than a heavier IS model.
Which are you looking at? Speed plays a big role here. The HB has a juicier target mod.
XLs don’t scare me quite so much. I actually have to lean toward the Caesar personally, especially in a head to head fight. The higher chance of piloting rolls and the fact that the pretty dubious armor is gonna give earlier on the Hellbie kind of mitigates the XL engine. Yes, if a Caesar loses a side torso it’s dead. But a HellB isn’t in much better shape if damage focuses on the right torso either, since an incoming gauss round hits internal structure on either on the first hit, and there’s quite a bit of explody stuff on the right. Yes, CASE prevents it from migrating, but you’re still looking at the above piloting rolls and the fact that the pilot’s still gonna be hurting. I’d have to give the edge, ever so slightly, to the overhauled Cataphract.
Fair points! And I think you are right. At the end of the day it could come down to luck of the dice all other things equal...
I'm a big fan of the Cataphract chassis, and the Caesar is basically an optimized NewTech Cataphract variant. The Loki is the glassiest of glass cannons. I will not be surprised if the Caesar pulls the win here [speaking from the beginning of the video]. I'm happy to use the Cataphract sculpt for both designs (just as long as everyone at the table knows which it is).
1 ton of LB-V ammo on the Loki B, yes? Are you using cluster or slugs for it? Clan dueling/trial builds irritate me with their lack of ammo loads.
If I were going to tweak the Caesar, I'd probably strip some heat sinks and add armor. You mostly need sinking capabilities for the ERPPC and a pair of MPLs. Anything more than that is unnecessary. If you trim down to 13 DHS you can get to 99.53% armor coverage and sink all the heat from the ERPPC, Gauss, two MPLs, and running.
A further change could be to exchange the pulse lasers for ER versions, getting you more useful range out of the payload. You could do just the front guns, or all four, and in each case you could add another DHS or double up on the lasers for a given slot. Maybe switching to 3 forward ERMLs and 2 rear ERMLs with 3 additional DHS would be worth the loss of point blank accuracy.
Post-vid conclusion: I just can't go with the Loki. Maybe a fire support build would work, but it's just too fragile. The Caesar at least should be able to handle a direct fire support role, where its armor (or lack thereof) will be a bit less of an issue. The classic pairing of an ERPPC and a Gauss is famous for a reason. The Loki B acts like it wants to be direct fire support, but then you have to consider its terrible ammo capacity and those ASRM6s and it's clearly meant as a duelist, not a battlefield configuration. Punch holes with the Gauss, then crit seek with the LB-AC. If the enemy closes, blast him with the missiles. You get 8 chances to blow the head off or breach armor, then you're entirely looking to exploit gaps and get those lucky TACs. This assumes cluster rounds for your ammo bin, naturally. Throw in the ability to make changes to a Battlemech that an Omnimech can't match (variants are much harder to make but can justify much larger changes) and I prefer the Caesar.
If it’s specifically between the Caesar and the Hellbringer Alt B, I’m picking the Caesar. The long range punch of gauss + ppc is too good especially with the limited ammo on the hellbringer. If it’s between _any_ hellbringer combo (because it’s an omnimech) then I’ll take the hellbringer.
Caesar wins against the Alt B.
Great point and underscores the versatility of those omnis. It was a close one. I think with some basic tweaks (Caesar swaps mplas out for front arc mlas and more armor) the CES could be a monster.
having 1 ton of gauss ammo, and a small laser is just...weird. Need to get a second ton in there somehow.
Yeah really! Why not drop the SLAS and carve out another 1/2 ton somewhere for more gauss ammo!
Ditch the Artemis IV, add a ton of gauss ammunition and an ER medium laser. 😉
the Hellbringer movement and srms for in close . wish it had a bit more armour
I would take the hellbringer but dropped 3 of the heat sinks for 2 t of at armor and one Gauss rifle ammo.
You can't alter a omni without losing its omni functionality
At the very least you can switch the ammo amounts.
@@ebonycat1985 Yes, but armor and other locked components are out of the question
Played Roguetech on the PC and had a Ceasar trash my entire lance.
Just about everything in tro 3050 was junk for the Innersphere, the Caesar and Axeman were 2 of the very few bright spots. Its not a mech I play much as I tend to play tech 1 games or late clan invasion civil war era where the tech gap is greatly diminished. Caesar almost feels like the prototype for the later absolutely stellar Falconer and Penetrator as both mechs seem to take its strengths to a whole new level
Caesar all the way.
I would drop a rear med pulse add armor then bring the other rear laser to the left arm. For that caesar.
Die Clanners.... Lol
*applause* IS 4 LYFE
I would do a couple of other mods as well. Gauss rifle to the right arm with case if I can, the PPC to that torso.
I dunno about you but if I have a weapon with limited ammo then I only let it fire at the best chance to hit. Maybe the sim should figure that in. These mechs have different roles. One is a IS heavy. It's more of an area denial. The other is a Skirmisher. It is best at hit and run, or staying at range. Your sims are interesting, but it doesn't figure in how it will be used.
It’s intended to benchmark the ‘mechs.
I’d argue it would be misleading to benchmark the mechs only in their optimal use. Games don’t always unfold that way, or terrain prohibits it.
Had some great dialog in the Avatar vs Sunmoner - someone was arguing the Summon could infinitely kite the AVO around. Have never played a game where this has happened 🙂
So, youre right, mechs dont always run straight at each other, but they also dont always get to pick the terms of the engagement.
As for figuring our when it is best to shoot - it does that. It looks at the weapons available and decides the optimal mix. What it doesn’t do is “hold fire” because it could be dead next turn 😁
A fair point, but IMO, you have to have some sort of baseline and since everything is compared the same way, its enough to say "all things being equal, here's how things stack up". In every instance, someone is going to be able to play a mech in such a way that it is more or less efficient than the numbers suggest.
Being honest, though, I actually watch these for the efficiency rating. All the other stuff is cool, but it ultimately serves that final analysis. Is this mech generally worth its BV? That's the primary question Battlelytics is attempting to answer.
Another close match-up to check against the Loki B would be the Helios Hel-3D. 5 tons lighter, similar load out, better armored, little slower but with jump jets, but 12 Mil c-bills cheaper.
I like the Loki prime. Dual er PPCs with a targeting computer. It's lacking in armour so I don't want it getting too close to the enemy. Likewise I'd keep the caesar at long range, the XL engine and light side torso armour makes it far too vulnerable for brawling in my opinion. The pulse lasers are good for defending against light mechs that try to run circles around you but aren't enough to justify putting it in a position where it will be targeted by lots of big guns. I'd stick that with a direct fire support lance.
Feel like if the Caesar dropped one or two of the rear facing Med Pulse or turned them all into regular Mediums the spare tonnage could be better armor coverage and level the Caesar up to being passable. I do have one on order, btw.
Yes! Would be my mod of choice... regular mediums are always my preference. And strip those rear facing ones for some more armor!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Make mine Martell!
A solid comparison. The Caesar is easily Improved by downgrading the rear firing pulse lasers to mediums and adding 2 more tons armor. Later versions of the Caesar use a light engine (put in production at the start of the Fedcom Civil War in 3062, 2 extra critical slots instead of 3, but it only drops the weight of the engine by 25%), and carry an array of pulse lasers with a Heavy Gauss Rifle, or a Heavy PPC with Endo Steel and Light Ferro Fibrous armor, or a Snub Nosed PPC with a Gauss Rifle, ER Medium Lasers and MASC.
The Loki has tons of different configs that get more balanced as the timeline progresses. It's low armor can be a handicap, but since it has more pod space then most other Clan heavies, it's built around using its speed and heavy firepower to act as a cavalry or force multiplier unit.
Light engines are almost always a better choice than IS XLs are, once they're available. The difference in survival rates is just staggering.
The Caesar seems to have more lasting power than the Hellbringer. The 8 gauss payload seems insufficient and as has already been mentioned it tends to be a glass cannon with that meager 8 tons of armor. All theory of course as I've never fielded either but if I had to choose I'd go the Caesar.
Those IS XL engines though.... they scare me.
I always wondered why the Loki wasn't armored up more... it could easily have Ferro-Fibrous armor added as there is enough space for it and as it's already an expensive mech some extra protection would be better to protect it! I guess in my own head canon, I figured it would be a good choice to teach impulsive mechwarriors some sense of humility or caution. I mean, it can really dish out damagem but one good round of shooting can bringing it down.
It's designed for firepower over armor. In a lot of ways the Loki reminds me of a faster Warhammer. Average armor, lots of guns, more firepower than heat sink capacity. However, Jade Falcon later rebuilt a new version in 3122 called the Loki II. It slows it down the mech down to 4/6 and adds in Ferro-Fibrous armor, allowing the Loki II to carry 40 tons of pod space with far tougher armor.
Originally all the TRO3050 Clan mechs had endo/ferro/XL but were considered too overpowered. In terms of lore the Hellbringer was rushed into production just for its omni functionality.
Re: Arm actuators; in omnimech construction rules, if you have a big-bore weapon (PPC, gauss, LB10, LB20) in the arm then you can't have a lower actuator in that arm. I think the Hellbringer B can get a lower actuator in the LB5 arm (I think 10 is where you can't, I'd have to check), but Prime can't, for example, because it has a pair of PPCs. It was during that era, though, where the art was made independently of what they actually put on the mech, like how the Warhawk model and art has the LRM10 in the wrong place, so it still looks like it does. EDIT: Just checked, all autocannons prohibit lower arm actuators on omnis.
And yeah, Clan seems to have been generally over-nerfed in terms of BV, looking at both this and your Avatar/Summoner review.
Please do a Battlytics for the Urbanmech. While yes it's a joke mech, I think it has merit to examine. At 504 BV, it has a very similar BV cost to a stinger 3-g, but Battlytics has so far shown almost all 3025 light mechs to be far behind the curve. Finding a cheap BV mech to offset heavier designs, while the cheap BV mech still meaningfully contributes, is the holy grail of light mechs--the Urbanmech might, MIGHT, be a contender.
there is a 5 ton weight difference here, that makes a massive difference. That and why not run longer range weapons on a clan heavy mech. Try comparing a vulture and see how this stacks up. Hell what about an Adder? Twin claner ERPPC in a 35 ton fast mech.
If it is a choice between these 2, I'll take the Hellbringer.
Had to rewatch this video after I passed out over the excitement of hearing my favorite mech the Axmen.
LOL!