I'm Starting To Change My Mind About Sumo
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I agree that standardizing the barbell should be the first thing. Not even just because of sumo, but because bendy bars in general really change the lift at top level.
Agreed. Bendy bars should be its own category like equipped is
Also there is still the problem with ROM and torso angle at the start of the lift. If you really want to make it about stance only, compare sumo with a conventional block pull. That way ROM and back angle are more equal.
Either remove sumo deadlifts or let conventional pullers lift off blocks.
@@adrianpap1374 that's the stupidest think I've heard in a while
I kind of agree especially because a lot of people do not have a bendy bar in their gym
@@adrianpap1374 you do know sumo and conventional pullers have the same numbers when they pull stiff bar right? that’s why we need deadlift bars gone
I think the issue with sumo only applies to bendy bar. On stiff bar sumo looks fine but on a noodle you can expand your stance so much more
Stiff bar deadlifts for every powerlifting competitions!
Yea on bendy bar sumo gives even more unfair advantage but with any bar sumo is always going to be with smaller rom.
Wait, the bar isnt bending because of the weights? İ tought it was so heavy that the bar bends. İs it supposed to be bending?
@@grismor1884 different bars have different stiffness the ipf uses eleiko bars wich almost dont bend at al. just look at jesus olivarus 410kg deadlift. whilst especially untested federations use longer or more flexible bars.
however the main problem is the cost of a stiff bar. those eleiko prices are no joke
@@grismor1884 Some barbells are stiffer than others, there is one called literally stiff bar, there is a deadlift bar, squat bar, bench press bar etc... There is even one called elephant bar, that is used in strongman shows, it is very bendy
Lifting vault having second thoughts on sumo. Must be the end of the world
Just an example of pandering to an inexperienced majority for the sake of a sport's growth
@@stinky635 haha that's literally exactly what he said
@@jareddeardorff3705 its sad how that was the ultimate deciding factor
Late April fools?
@@populer208 lmao yh. I actually checked the upload date
I've been adamant that the bendy bars are the big issue, and I haven't seen anything that has prompted a change of heart. I personally think sumo is a different lift, but I'm not going to die on that hill.
I am because it is. If sumo is allowed, is Jefferson deadlift too? Or some other variation?
You are absolutely right, the fact that a lot of these smaller guys can pull very good number sumo but their squat is lagging a lot and Bench is non existent says it all actually
Hey, I think a low bar squat isn't the same as a high bar squat. We are all free to think what is more impressive🙂
@@assbak1 what do you mean "a lot"? What elite level lifter puts up an elite total with a bad squat and bench?
@@kobeballer Yeah, typically guys in the lighter weight classes who have a big sumo also have a pretty solid squat comparatively, especially in the IPF/USAPL. I think he's talking about social media bros (that don't compete) and deadlift like 550+ sumo but barely bench 225 lol
IMO it is the noodle bar use more than the stance that most people have a problem with.
not true, at all
It is not just the noodle bar. The sumo stance itself is radically different than a deadlift stance.
@@ClockCutter they only really differ in appearance. sumo has a slightly shorter bar path, but that generally doesn't add to difficulty. the benefit of sumo is the greater use of the quads and less so of the spinal erectors. but its still a hip hinge that uses a lot of the glutes and hamstrings regardless of stance width
@@ClockCutter i switched from sumo to conv because i was stronger conventional. but i used the same cues when i made the switch only making minor tweaks because the lifts feel very similar
@@nath4nie181 It is a variation of The Deadlift, kinda like how Jefferson deadlift is.
As a once outsider who has outsider friends still, the outside perspective is extremely important.
What IPF did for bench is a HUGE move in the right direction and I think changing the rules on sumo would be another huge improvement.
It's POWERlifting, not technical-lifting. Nobody is impressed or awed by McDonald's arch bench presses or 3 inch sumo deadlifts. These are not great expressions of power and outsiders who have not been indoctrinated can see it clear as day while the rest of us have been brainwashed into thinking they are just fine.
Exactly i see some of the extreme low rom sumo deadlifts as impressive as the 2 inch bench presses and half rep on squats
That's what I was saying. Normal people looking at the aesthetic and technical lifts of weightlifting would be awe'd by it.
On the other hand, people would be looking at sumo deadlifts and McDonalds arch benches and think: "wtf is that?"
These lifts make powerlifting look like a freakshow and it would hamper the sport.
Rom is different for different people it’s about levers if they have long shins and short femurs they will suck at conventional but be better at sumo, and a person with bigger spinal erectors and stronger hamstrings and glutes will be better at conventional
This hits the nail squarely on the head. How many gym bros would have gotten excited by Eddie Hall's big deadlift had he done it sumo style? I agree that the athlete's perception is different to the public's view of what the sport should look like and with or without stiff bars, sumo should be outlawed to protect the credibility of the sport with its potential audience and potential participants.
Most L comment of "it's powerlifting not technical lifting" I shouldn't have to explain to you why that is a moronic comment so I not gonna
I think you raise a good point. It’s crazy that the bar for powerlifting isn’t standardized yet.
It generally is, just per fed. You can't really standardise things across multiple feds
You should standardize though..all time deadlift records with stiff bars would change alot.
Yea das y we shud only have 3 feds. Usapl, uspa and ipf
After the 3 lifts were chosen, rules were codified not long before AAU powerlifting began in 1964. The idea was to have a lift to measure torso strength (BP), leg strength (SQ) and back strength (DL). The one rule that governed anything close to the issue here with wide stance deadlifting? A 32" grip width rule for bench pressing. As I recall, Paul Anderson was on the rules making committee and he might've been the influence there. I recall some thought 32" was owing to a bit of a rivalry between Anderson and Doug Hepburn and a few others who used collar to collar grip widths. Doug used this very wide grip when he bench pressed. It didn't take long for the Sumo style deadlift to appear. The issue? It turns a deadlift into a second hip and thigh movement and it effectively eliminated the great battles where some squatty lifter would get far ahead in the bench press (it was contested first for many years) and also do well in squats . . . only for some lean wiry looking lifter to come back and pull a big deadlift for the win. Other changes? The bar began dropping down lower on the back in squats: the powerlifting squat was born. Rules had to be changed. Squat stances also began widening out. Lifters started using both exposed and hidden wraps. More rules to rein in these events including one year where all wraps were disallowed. It got really bad. Two final points: one is that if you can set a width limit to bench grips, a rule stating that hands have to be outside the knees could be made for deadlifts. The second point is all of these changes have literally ruined the sport as regards ever regaining a broad acceptance with the public. If you think watching some dude in a bench shirt doing whatever it is they do is desirable, you are likely wrong. Powerlifting was once briefly a televised sport. It has fallen to the wayside now as has Olympic lifting and the silliness there (2 lifts no one relates to that are highly correlated). Viewers have moved on to other strength sports. WSM comes to mind but a few other venues, too. Don't mean to make anyone mad. I could go on for another hour.
Great comment and thank you for the notes about this sports history, and your suggestions for adjustments into the future. I guess if there is a time to make the adjustments it is sooner than later.
However, as I am sure you are well aware the suggestion of a rule of grip width limitations for deadlift, in particular hands outside the knees, explicitly targets the differentiating factor between Sumo and conventional. I know you mentioned it as a hypothetical only.
I think the issue lies where it does with that which you noted for equipped lifting. The equipment. A few inch ROM deadlift on a noodle bar isn't desirable to see.
Thanks again for the comment and historical perspective. Awesome stuff!
@@beauwille2294 I think the sport still has a chance, it just needs strong leadership. So many issues across so many sports often in need of some "tuning" I guess. I think some of the issue related to powerlifting are existential. 2" deadlift ranges have no appeal that I can think of. The first dozen years of powerlifting were pretty great. Here's hoping the sport returns to its roots!
@@bradreid6057
Honestly I wish you kept going. I didn’t start powerlifting until 2012 and I would love to learn more about its history that I can’t really find in a Wikipedia page
Wasn’t overhead pressing a part of it at first? Got any good resources to watch or read to learn more? You’ve definitely got me interested
@@kozmo7 Well, prior to 1964, there were "odd lift" meets (still are some today) and they usually had one or more of what would become the 3 power lifts. Curls were commonly contested. I think, yes, some military presses. I know I lifted in a military press contest in an odd lift though many years later. Anyway, pre-1964, it was all up to the meet promoters to decide what lifts to contest. I recall several of the early powerlifting greats first lifted in odd lift meets. I recall the great bench presser, Ronnie Ray, had an official curl result from an early 60s meet but several others did, too. By the way, the primary reason for powerlifting? It came out of the fact we were losing ground in the Olympic style lifts internationally. Paul Anderson had his victory in '56 and I think Ike Berger and Tommy Kono won medals later. Too, bodybuilding was really taking off and the bench/squat/deadlift triune really fit in well, sort of complemented each other. Again, here's hoping powerlifting regains its common sense and makes some easy fixes.
@@bradreid6057
Wow that’s crazy to hear. So equipped lifting you think hurt the sport from a pastime perspective? I was wondering what you meant by how it was on tv at one point, I don’t think I ever knew that. What happened? Worlds strongest man kept going on tv till this day to your point. Super interesting topic I gotta say
Woman pulls 135: OMG MUSCLE MOMMY! WORLD RECORD! SO STRONG AND COURAGEOUS!
Man pulls 1035: NOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST LIFT THAT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
It's two totally different lifts imo and should not be allowed together
As someone who pulls conventional i honestly dont care if someone pulls sumo or not. That being said, the nonstop complaining in the powerlifting community makes us all seem like whiney babies.
Finally someone with a brain
Well most powerlifters are people who couldn't make it in real sports so it makes sense
Real shit
@@SugarWeasel1227 I've never seen actual competing powerlifter talk shit about sumo. It's always whiney people on the internet, who don't even compete.
@@SugarWeasel1227 that's an extremely strange presumption to make. How have you come to that conclusion?
I think the difference isn't as bad when done on a stiff bar and a normal sumo stance.
The difference between sumo and wide stance squat is that the body can fold on itself to varying degrees to shorten the rom, ie krystov vs jamal.
I mean, the fact that jamal and krystov have lifted the same numbers as thor and eddie should be enough to prove the point that its a different lift
correct me if im wrong, but as far as i know cant jamal also hit a 1000lb deadlift conventional? and without the suit too
@@shonporo9337 I’m not sure if he’s hit 1000 conventional, i know he’s working on that for the deadlift championships, but he has a very respectable conventional, just not close to his sumo
@@liamrmorgans921 he will have 1000 very soon. he almost had it recently
Best thing to do is to call it "sumo pull" and treat it as another kind of exercise, different from a deadlift
I think if we allow sumo, then we should allow Hack and Jefferson deadlifts as well, since they are still deadlift "variations"
The purpose of powerlifting is to showcase various aspects of full body strength.
Purpose of the squat: test leg strength.
Purpose of bench: test upper body strength.
Purpose of deadlift: test back, and grip, strength.
Sumo completely changes the purpose of the deadlift, and makes it more about leg drive and limb angle manipulation. Face it, sumo lifters can’t complete the same in conventional. Bar position in the squat does not change the primary leg component like sumo changes the lift from the back to the legs.
Deadlifts of any type are about leg drive. If you want a spinal erector exercise with no or little leg drive, do back extensions or good mornings. Sumo allows a lifter to remain more up right, which places less load on the spinal erectors compared to conventional. However, both still involve lots of leg and hips muscles. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing that sumo should be banned but if you're going to make an argument, at least be accurate.
I think using stiff bar + rules on stance width (say shins must be perpendicular to the ground) would make it better
Even in a conventional deadlift your shins shouldn't be perpendicular with the ground, to be able to get hips pushed forward into position you've gotta start with your knees over the bar
What are the judges gonna have to do, bring a goniometer to the platform?
I think the easier rule of thumb would be to say your hands/elbows must start outside your knees rather than judge the foot placement directly.
@@breyden9363they mean your shins can't be PAST perpendicular from the front (or your ankles can't be wider than your knees at the start is a less confusing way to word it)
@@Phriedahou used a lot of words to just say conventional deadlift.
Thanks for the level headed discussion. Personal anecdote warning: when I was little a quack doctor convinced my parents to get corrective shoes to straighten out my feet. The doctor never told then that it corrects itself as a child grows muscle so now my feet point out wide. I have a lot of trouble with conventional but sumo is cake because my feet point that way already.
My man missed April Fool's by 2 days.
you missed a real deadlift by 3 inches🤡
The way I see it is Sumo is the Arch Bench of Power Lifting, 2 different events within the same category. What I would like to see is Deadlift separated into 2 categories Sumo and Conventional.
Sumo is bad, bench arching is ridiculous
There is no debate, sumo is a different lift and should have it’s own federation, it’s that simple! There are regular records and sumo records!
Just got a 405 conventional deadlift at 170 lbs 😎
Congrats you lifted for 8 months
Congrats bro! Keep them gainz comin 😅
@@neal520why would you shit over somebody’s achievement they are proud of?
nice, chasing u with 340
@@neal520 lol lots of guys will never reach 405 unless the focus deadlift keep hating
Just use a stiff bar with a better knurling and a little thinner for better grip and many peopke would be completely fine with sumo. With all these noodle bar deadlifts (I guess the most used noodle bar is from Kabuki) lately this issue becomes even worse.
The bar thickness is fine. Grip matters in strength. If it was just a legs and core test, only squat is needed. It should be whatever bar is being used to squat and bench.
@@michaellopez2070 no one wants to see deadlift failed by grip, there a reason strongman allows straps.
As much as I think this would close that gap between some of the sumo outliers and conventional pulls, I still think sumo trolls would come out regardless
@@vitaliyvorobets2738 Deadlifts without straps is more impressive. Strongman does all it can to push numbers up, doesn't make it a more impressive feat of strength.
@@michaellopez2070isn't a hook grip allowed in all federations anyways?
Straps reduce the risk if injury quite a bit.
Over under risks the biceps and hook grip isn't exactly great for your thumbs.
The problem is the kubuki bar and even as a sumo puller myself I have to say I’m not opposed to limiting stance with as well. Some ppl are very very dramatic with their stance especially on longer bars. I sometimes even say it’s not fair myself lol
Sumo is to powerlifting what kipping pull ups are to CrossFit. Best to get rid of it as soon as possible.
This is the one thing highlighted between Untested vs Tested. Tested feds will always standardize the use of a universal power bar for all lifts that is either an eleiko or closest match to eleiko specs. While for untested, the bars get whippier and whippier by the year, soon enough if this trend keeps going we will have people in untested pulling conventional on a bar so whippy that it just bends instead of breaking the ground at the very least
The thing is that it is comparable to the bench controversy in my eyes. Sumo is not easy for everyone, hell my sumo is worse than my conventional. but the extremes make the sport a laughing stock just like with the extreme bench arches. IMO they should just make seperate categories for sumo & conventional since sumo heavily relies on leverages rather than strength
Sumo and conventional just shouldn’t even be compared. They are not the same lift. Different movement with primary focus on different muscles.
It's the noddle bars and crazy wide stance widths that really annoy me personally. I think the ROM is so short in these circumstances that it's barely a feat of strength anymore and it gets to a point of "how much can I get away with here". Standardising the bars and, a more controversial one, making a max stance width would definitely alleviate these problems. The max stance width can be seen as the deadlifts version of depth on the squat and bench.
Strongman made the best deadlift rule - your grip simply has to be wider than the stance. Eliminates cheating on ROM entirely 🤷♂️
The fact that it is a different lift isn't up for debate, so I'm glad people are starting to acknowledge that
To all the people saying to use a stiffer bar, they are correct. In strongman on the hummer tire deadlift when they add a 4th tire on each side the lift becomes easier than the 3 tire with extra steel plates. For the simple reason the bar flexes more and you can get the center of the bar higher before all the weight is in your hands.
Sumo is like a insane arch in bench that was also made impossible due to recent rule changes.
I feel like its just like having a wide grip on bench
@@benpickworth9678 No, it's a completely different lift and should not be allowed in competition
its exactly that! Advantageously shortening the rom to make the lift easier and put more weight
@@Panos7Thyra Only if it suits your body type. The strongest deadlifters generally pull conventional for a reason - it's easier for them.
How about your shins have to be inside the same rings as for the benchpress? I like that.
Anything that significantly reduces ROM will be seen as "cheating" by the average lifting enthusiast, understandably
The average inexperienced to novice lifter, more like
@@stinky635 no matter your lifting level you can't deny that sumo makes the lift easier for a vast majority of people because less ROM and back angle. It's mechanics
@@ExecutionSommaire I can say that the bar used should be more worried about. I know not everyone is the same but my sumo and conventional are similar on a stiff bar, on deadlift bar however my sumo has like a 40 lb advantage to conventional
Every single time that you see an insane feat of "strength" from a person who doesn't look like they'd be capable of lifting that kind of weight It always happens to be in a sumo deadlift. Whether that's on a deadlift bar or stiff bar.
With that being said I don't have an issue with a modest sumo pull. But stances so wide that you're worried the person's going to smash their toe when they drop the weight needs to be pulled from the sport.
How about we implement 2 rules.
1- No bendy bar
2- Bar has to end up above knee caps? So theres not a CRAZY low range of motioin like a few lifters
More like, Bar has to end up at least at the crotch, which is where the bar reaches when you lift conventional and don't cheat the ROM by using straps and letting the bar hang on the straps with your grip open. Just above the knee caps is completely ridiculous, and in no way should ever be considered an acceptable deadlift.
I think that some rules of ROM should be applied in every lift, something that measure in some way the range of motion of the lift, if you take too much advantage and there's too much short rom = no lift
Or perhaps some judges may start to display some red light
You actually followed me on Instagram which I assume is because I had a relatively heavy deadlift video blow up, im not the strongest in the world but im certainly not a beginner, my take is that sumo is an entirely different lift and for me I can get a ton of extra weight with way less time training the sumo deadlift. I spent years training the conventional deadlift and topped out at 605, switched to sumo and in a year I jumped up to 700. For me it’s very clear one is easier than the other, especially when all the guys in contention for the world record, even at absurdly low body weights, pull sumo. It may not be for everyone, but for those who can utilize it, it is undeniably far superior.
In the IPF the heaviest raw deadlifts for men and women were performed conventional (Jesus Olivares 410 kg, Natalie Laalaai 270 kg). The two heaviest lifts in Sheffield were conventional (Olivares and Norling), the six heaviest deadlifts at the epf european Championship 2022 were all performed conventional. IPF / EPF uses stiff bar. The problem is the deadliftbar, not the stance. Especially american feds use deadlift bars and loose judging to create artificially "atwrs"
The only thing I can see needing to change is limiting stance width. Similar to the bench where you can only have the hand so far out.
It's not about the barbell, but about the fact that athletes understand different movements as sumo techniques. When the legs are slightly wider than the shoulders for maximum inclusion of the hips is one thing; but it is a completely different matter when the legs stand excessively wide, when the back stays upright and only a leg movement occurs.
Change you mind? Sumo is a dramatically different lift. It uses biomechanic cheats to limit movement within a specific power band. Anyone who can't see this immediately is someone who I hightly doubt ever lifted in their life.
What if sumo was limited to the original stance, which wasn't ridiculously wide? If lower legs are perpendicular to the floor at the start, as used to be the case, and with a standard bar?
The terrible RoM is what kills it for me. Reminds me of those ego lifting videos where some mook loads up a bar comically past the max and then barely budges it even a millimeter a few times.
2 aspects:
1) bendy bar + higher length of the bar makes the sumo a joke (in IPF even sumos look decent) due to skipping the hardest part of a sumo that is off the floor
2) powerlifting in essence is test of full body strength (back for deadlift, legs for squat and front for bench) sumo lowers the involvement of lower back and puts more focus on the quads... the test of that is the squat
I have mixed feelings on sumo. On one hand, I have chronic lumbago and sumo is better for me and people like me. But on the other hand, the short distance in some of these sumo lifts is so ridiculous it can not even be considered a lift at all. It's an issue that seriously needs to be corrected. I would say as an overall sumo is ok as long as there is plenty of distance moved.
its the noodle bar that makes the lift so much easier
No ROM? No Lift!
I agree with limiting stance width and type of bar. I’ve seen too many lifters having practically no range of motion due to these workarounds. Kinda defeats the point of lifting a weight if it barely moves a few inches. And this is coming from a lifter who is a fan of both styles. Rules to keep sumo honest in the eyes of the masses will get the competitor’s lifts more
respect.
I was told that some people do worse on sumo than deadlifts, but I don't think that matters. People should stick to only one deadlifting form during powerlifting which is conventional because it's the most popular around here.
BAN SUMO AND OVER ARCHING ON BENCH TOO!
Same as bench for me, three completely different positions incline, flat and decline. If Sumo is the same as conventional deadlift than guys should start doing decline for bench because it’s far easier. As a side benefit it would save their backs from all that arching. 😂
Max Hale, with a lower bodyweight, and a higher bench press than I had at that same age. INCREDIBLE. I took first in the state when I competed in high school.
Just goes to show that the next generation just keeps getting better!
There was a study done not too long ago which measured the muscle activation and impulses of strength training athletes while doing various squat or DL movements.
They found that the sumo deadlift was more similar to a squat movement than a trap bar deadlift (which was more similar to a pure hip hinge movement). Objectively speaking if you allow sumo in competition you might as well go the full 9 yards.
The classic "if you disagree with me, you're just a new lifter who doesn't know better" line. Also the "outsiders to the sport" thing is pretty ridiculous, outsiders offer a fresh perspective from the classic powershitter's "2 inch ROM bench isn't cheating" meme.
And it also insinuates that powerlifting/powerlifters have a monopoly on the sbd lifts, when they are WIDELY used outside of pl. MAYBE Im not a powerlifter, but I still understand training principles and exercise/body mechanics.
I think you’ve been on /fit/ too much
Yes, because new lifters don't really know the differences and will shit on anything.
Sumo deadlift has the same problem as high arch bench press. You are not moving the weight far enough. In sumo, you might only lift the weight 40% the height you would have to in conventional deadlift. Allowing sumo deadlifts delegitimizes the sport and should be banned. Professional Strongman has had a ban on sumo deadlifts for quite a long time now.
make the deadlift bar the same width as a power bar..you can still have it thin and whippy but the width will reduce the sumo stance to a more "normal" width
To me the problem with sumo is it doesn't lift the bar as high as conventional. It also means the starting postion alllows the lifter to be more upright in his upper body at the start of the lift. The legs are eaiser to lock out asl well. All of these make it a different lift. I know bench has variations and ammount of arch, it has problems too. But because bench is screwed up doesn't mean you shouldn't fix deadlift. Then fix bench, still way too much arch involved. It''s become a test of flexibility instead of strength (truly a shame).
watch the first lift in this video. The bar barely comes up as he straightens his legs (that is because of mechanfical advantage of that position). Then watch how little he has to straighten up his back to complete the lift. Then watch conventional and see how much more the bar has to rise and how much more the lifter has to bend over and how much more they have to lift with the upper body to lock out. There is a lot more work involved in conventional lifting (work equals force times distance).
What we really need is a BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY lift.
thought i was the only one who thought that
It'd probably have to be something along the lines of a clean and press, or a log clean/press like in strongman then. I.E. get the bar from on the ground to locked out overhead in any means possible. Log Presses/Axle Presses are both some of the most entertaining movements to watch in strongman, but if Powerlifting adopted it it'd just look like they're copying.
Alright, I'll equip my super hydrolic ply suit rated for 1 million tons and get the world record EZ.
@@luka188 It's not like anyone cares about equipped lifting anyway, use a forklift for all I care.
Sumo should be a different lift. There's a reason most competitive lifters deadlift sumo.
The big issue is not sumo itself.
It's the super wide stance with the noodle bar.
Same as 0 ROM bench it's rediculus
I think the problem with sumo, is that if you have good leverages you can turn what is meant to be a very hip dominant lift into a knee dominant lift with very little hip flexion, but the squat is meant to be the knee dominant lift.
I think it matters when your sumo stance width is too far out, a sumo stance just outside the arms isn't as bad as when your toes are almost touching the plates
fax
the main issue with sumo is the nonexistent rom of some pullers, and yes limiting stance would help
For me its really quite simple. Separate Sumo and Conventional into two separate disciplines and have one standard bar.
There's no way to account for that in competition.
Sumo is mechanically advantaged and should be nixed along with bench press arches.
I think bar standardization should happen. Old deadlift bars are fine to me, but the specialty super whippy bars are becoming a bigger issue, though I can see arguments for all stiff bars.
The one change to limit sumo they I think is reasonable is stance width. Legs inside the pinky rings could make sense, like how bench has a max grip width. Legs inside arms is forcing a single form for a lift, which I don't agree with for powelifting, but people who need to turn their feet in at that last second to not break a toe is taking it far. Admittedly, a downside to this is it disproportionately impacts tall lifters.
*Deadlifts and Sumo Deadlifts should be considered two different lifts. Records should be separated.* Doing this, will unite the Strength community.
I don't think adding in more categories to powerlifting will help the sport in any way. If anything it will make it less accessible for newcomers
as long as it's clarified that Sumo Lifts are not Dead Lifts.
Very stupid idea. The only things that have to be banned are the super bendy bar.
@@LiftingVault Yoga arches and sumo deadlifts on noodle bars are way more alienating to potential audiences in my opinion (and high squats that are excessively low bar).
One solution would be to have sumo and conventional pullers pull together in the event but during their attempts (sumo) and (conv) would be shown next to their weight. The results would be shown under the shared category 'deadlift' but in two different tables.
That way you won't have to create two entirely seperate categories and the competition process wouldn't have to change at all.
@@giovannirusso8423 you obviously cheat by doing sumo lifts.
"an opinion largely supported by beginners and outsiders" Whatever you have to tell yourself man.
A classic example of the appeal to ignorance fallacy. The assumption that a person's opinions are invalid because you assume they are novice or uninformed without actually knowing if they are. It's a classic fallacy in faulty reasoning that lets the user assume they are right without actually assessing the content of the "novices" opinion. You know there is good reason for the deadlift hate, but sure, everyone is just ignorant and you are right.
@@Rechallenge It actually wasn't an assumption, I did a poll about this in the past (on strength central)
They should have banned Sumo stance the day it appeared.
Work = force x distance. Look at the sumo deadlift at 1:06. That bar is maybe, what, 6 inches off the ground? Now look at 1:45. With conventional I'd say it's closer to maybe 1.5 feet off the ground. Moving the weight that extra distance takes more work. It's literally one of the most basic physics equations. These should be considered different lifts.
I agree with what others have said. If everyone would just use a stiff bar like an Ohio Power Bar, it would even things out quite a bit and there wouldn't be such an uproar. That would be the true test of strength, but with Kabuki Bars and such, the discrepancy will just get worse.
It's not that sumo is "cheating" per say, it's just that they should considered a separated lift. Strongman understood that from the get go. Different bar or equippement or overall setup means differents records. There is a reason the only 2 guys to have dradlifted 500 conventionnal were twice the bodyweight of the sume pullers.
Strongman does it because they have deadlifts from raised height often, which is MASSIVELY beneficial to sumo.
@@brianfox340 sumo is 95% of the time a mechanical advantage for smaller guys. And even insede powerlifting wich is supposed to be the strictest system out there, it goes from stiff bar to the kanuzuki noodle bar. There is a reason why most records in lower classes are done with the sumo stance, and the open division isnt. Yes some 100kg guys have pulled 500+ kgs, but in terms of pure raw generated force, Hafto and Eddie blows them away. In my mind, Benedikt's 460kg is still the world record in powerlifting until someone actually does more conventianal. And I do believe Jamal could be capable of it someday, but not right now. You said that strongman does it because of the differents height, but it is not true. Even at same height starting position, they separate different bars and equippement and stiffness and so on. Either you do it with the same setup, or you dont and it counts as something else
@@J.c410 narrow stance high bar squat is wildly different than low bar wide stance squats, but nobody cries about that. A WAY higher percentage of lifters can squat more low bar vs high bar than the percent that pull more sumo than conventional, but that hasn't become cool to hate yet.
My point is that when you allow the starting height to raise then that's when sumo gets a huge advantage. It's harder the lower it starts by a lot, so whether it's a wagon wheel deadlift at 18" or a super whippy Kabuki bar, that removes the hard part of the ROM from sumo. Stiff bar from the floor actually makes the two comparable, though it is a fact that larger people correlate to better conventional and smaller toward sumo.
You can ignore anyone's lifts you want, and discredit any lifter or federation you want to. Feel free to make believe that nobody ever invented sumo of you want, but that won't change the fact Magnusson doesn't have the Powerlifting record anymore. Stiff bar record in powelifting? Absolutely he does. Convention record? He still has that one too.
Great video! Not only because you agree with me (although mostly because of that), but you also list some good points to support your stance.
If we have a width limit on the bar for the bench we should also have one for the foot placement for the squat and dead.
It is a different lift, you are in denial.
Again, if it’s not different and it’s all the same. Why can’t everyone pull the same both ways?
Oh, because they’re stronger in a different stance? So a different stance, that involves different muscles, isn’t different?
You’re just wrong. A high bar and low bar squat are different too, and a heavier high bar squat is much more impressive IMO. It’s different than a low bar squat, but you probably don’t think so 😂
It’s just a totally different lift, and I’d benefit hella by doing sumo
Then do it. Add a few hundred to your pull by putting ur legs wider. Do it.
Get rid of the bendy bars. That totally changes the elmechanics of the lift into a partial ROM lift. And although you can't. Choose? Grip with on the bench press there is a limit to how wide you can go. The same should be true of sumo deadlift.
Everyone knows that the problem is the noodle bars, but still it doesn't get changed, because promoters want big numbers.
Let's see if anyone still has a sumo stance if deadlift is performed on a squat bar (or something of equal stiffness)
Finally some relenting. Your defence of sumo always stressed me out so much.
but who cares about 16 years old zyzz fans opinion? lol
The argument for sumo that "variations are allowed in the other lifts as well" IMO is null...there should be very little if any variation allowed in any of the lifts...just my opinion
That lift in particular (first video Danny Grigs record at -110 kg class) was actually done on a Kabuki PR breaker deadlift bar which is a couple millimeters too long for WRPF rules (the fed he lifted in) and pretty much every other fed too.
As for sumo those that argue that it isn't objectively easier just need to look at the records. The deadlift record is sumo in the 60, 67.5, 75, 82.5, 100, 110, 125 and 140 kg classes, only the 56, 90 and SHW classes are conventional (-56 and SHW being two of the smallest classes by participation and -90 being Haack). Also in most of the classes were the record is sumo the nearest conventional pull is miles behind, to the point where it feels highly unlikely that a conventional puller will break that record ever again.
in -75 the record is 365, closest conventional pull is 335,
in -82.5 the record is 405, closest conventional pull is 362.5,
in -110 the record is 467.5, closest conventional pull is 410,
in -125 the record is 487.5 closest conventional pull is 422.5,
in -140 the record is 465 closest conventional pull is 427.5.
Sumo is cheating
Let's use a standard power bar. Professional baseball uses wooden bats to make it harder. So why have the best powerlifters use bendy bars? It's backward.
Besides the bending of the bar...Just look at how short the bar travel is compared to conventional...of course it's a different type of lift and should be treated as such. Work equals force x distance...sumo lifts are noticeably smaller distances of travel which is by definition less work... hence why so many people say it's easier because based upon physics it is less work. That's why sumo is so popular among female lifters TBH.
Where it boils down to is biomechanical differences as well. Very similar lifts but Sumo is going to pull more isometric power into the lower body, where a large amount of our musculature is lower body, and generally people are stronger with the lower half, although there is still a great amount of load being focused on the erectors, its no where NEAR the level of activation of the erectors that a traditional deadlift offers.
Tl;DR: Sumo is takes emphasis off the erectors and places more emphasis on the lower body, which is generally stronger than upper body on most individuals. Rarely see people benching or OHP'ing their DL/Squat weights. lol.
Surely a major difference between sumo and conventional vs the variations available in the other lifts, is the fact that the arm position is fundamentally altered: in sumo the elbows are inside the knees, in conventional they are outside.
Sumo deadlifts and conventional deadlifts are different lifts. If you try both sumo and conventional deadlifts with the same weight, around 80% of your max, you feel the differences. I am not saying which lift is easier because it depends on yourself.
Another example that two lifts look similar but are different, is that the hammer curl and the biceps curl, these two lifts are different.
Zydrunas savickas says its a separate lift
Is he a beginner or outsider?
From a video a saw a couple months ago, I think it was from Jeff Nipard, Sumo tends to be more popular and efficient with weight classes bellow 110kg. Perhaps strongman is "less rigorous" in some ways, I have never seen a single strongman use sumo in competition. I'm not aware it it's banned, but a factor that has big impact it's the dimensions of the equipment and the fact that all weight classes use the same. In this particular case, for me it's pretty clear that the bar length may be a bit short for bigger guys and the height from the bar to their arms is way bigger than for those who are not as big. I'm 5'4 and always do conventional, and sometimes I feel that I have a lot of ROM for my size. That gives me the thought of how much more effort a 6'0 or above guy has to make to move the same weight.
i think banning sumo (like cannot have hands between legs) is kinda dumb. but limiting stance width is a great idea.
He says that grip width is not limited on bench press but that is completely false. Stance width on deads should be limited the same as bench grip width on bench for extremely obvious reasons.
How do you get your lift to become a subscriber highlight?
Comparing high and low bar squats or variation in arches to sumo v conventional is where you went wrong. Those are slight variations whilst sumo is a completely different lift to conventional. Either way, this debate only exists online and amongst ego lifters. Conventional will always be the standard of true strength.
Body types vary, but if you allow the form to vary so much that the ROM can be severely reduced, especially with the rubber bars, it's a different lift at best. That's why they restricted some of the abuses we've been seeing in BP.
Yep. We've already seen a zero/near zero ROM bench.
I'm not a competitive lifter but I do focus a lot on my bench, squat, and deadlift in training. My biggest issue is severely reducing ROM. Bench was getting ridiculous with this. It became a competition in flexiblity. Not strength. Squat on the other hand. Your body is still moving the weight same distance.
A super wide sumo stance allows for the bar to travel a lot less further up then in a conventional set up. The way Grigsby lifts for instance the bar only comes off the floor 10 inches or so. Next to that the heavy weight keeps the shoulders pulled forward which makes it really hard to tell whether its a good lock out or not. For a strength competition to be really fair everyone should lift the same way. It shouldn't be about mobility or who has the longest arms.
Certain sports favour certain builds, so does powerlifting. Basketball players almost need to be tall, football linemen need to be big and so on. It‘s also not that just leverages will save you. If you miss a deadlift in comp and don‘t have great leverages for the squat or bench (bench more often because of long arms), then it‘s hard to get a good placing in a powerlifting comp. You could then also make the point that everyone has to bench with the same width and squat in the same stance, which is just absurd imo
@@cjin3680 A conventional deadlift only meet doesn't sound to crazy to me. It just means that the sumo lifters will have to train more conventional and overall weights probably will go down a bit. Or sumo meets only.
Im not losing sleep over it. Its matter of preference I guess.
Yeah, sumo takes far less energy to lift the same amount of weight than conventional. Not only the bar doesn't travel nearly as high due to the wide stance, the shoulders remain slack as well so you your arms reach lower too when standing up, which basically reduces the ROM in two ways compared to conventional. The ROM is basically the same as a rack pull. Not anywhere close as challenging as a conventional deadlift.
@@luka188 Again, it depends on the person. Once you look at higher weight classes, more people pull conventional than sumo, at least in the IPF. And to the point about the shoulders, you can also use thoracic rounding pulling conventional, your lockout has to look convincing either way. It‘s also a completely different skill to pull sumo, the lift is argueably a lot harder to master. I feel like this debate has been done to death, I don‘t want to dive deeper than this into a discussion. For me it‘s just a preference thing
@@cjin3680 yeah, higher weightclass people are taller therefore they would need a longer bar to take advantage of sumo.
Our boy is starting to see the light. Hell has frozen over. Lol
It’s a completely different bio mechanical movement. Same for wide grip bench vs narrow. Works different muscles and gives advantage to how much easier it is to get full extension without having to actually go through a full range of motion. It’s a short cut.
Well if sumo is interchangeable with the conventional deadlift the same should apply for jefferson deadlift or behind the back deadlift aka hack squat.
for me the problem with sumo is the bars are too long and flexible, the bars should be smaller and totally rigid.
I’m starting to think a limit on stance width would be the best solution to this. 🤷🏻♂️