How Does it Work: Short Recoil Operation
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2025
- / forgottenweapons
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Correction: Browning invented the pistol slide, but not the overall short recoil system. Maxim was the first to successfully create a short recoil firearm.
Short recoil is the most common system used today in self-loading handguns, and it also used to be fairly popular in machine gun designs. The basic principle is that the bolt and barrel (in a handgun, slide and barrel) are locked together for an initial travel substantially less than the overall length of the cartridge. After typically a few millimeters of travel, the barrel stops and the bolt or slide is able to continue rearward to extract and eject the empty case. Short recoil can be paired with virtually any locking system, but today the Browning tilting barrel system is most common.
Short recoil has never been popular in shoulder rifle, as the reduction in mechanical accuracy from the moving barrel can be undesirable. In handguns and machine guns, this accuracy reduction is generally below the threshold of relevance.
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The video on short recoil is longer than the one on long recoil. This tickles me.
Equality of outcome policy, methinks.
@@jarinorvanto4301 But it is not. Equality of outcome literally requires the outcome to be equal of which ({long video} != {short video}) clearly isn't.
I noticed that aswell!
This would be a interesting series going over and explaining every type of semi automatic or fully automatic action.
It's already a series.ua-cam.com/play/PL9e3UCcU00TRIeypXC53S8r81DZRvoXmu.html
that is exactly what this series is. he's done a similar video on several other common methods of action
There is even a video on 30cal clips...
Not really, but there is one on feed systems.
What did you think these videos were?!
@@killerbern666 Damn, what a rookie mistake. It can be really hard getting the nomenclature of the 'scared to death of inanimate objects' left correct when they don't even understand the words that are coming out of their mouths.
Watching weapon parts flex like spaghetti noodles in slo-mo is mesmerizing.
Watch Larry Vickers inside the Ak-47 videos. Very cool look at the operating system in slow-mo
Watch a PSL in slow mo, that barrel is waving all over the place!
Is that a phenomenon which is associated with the photography, tho? I can't believe that mechanical components flex like that ... do they?
@@rcfokker1630 yes, they really do flex that much!
Think about it. There's an explosion (ok, pedants, a deflagration) inside the barrel. That causes a pressure wave to go down the barrel at supersonic speeds. Supersonic speeds for sound in metal. Then that pressure wave hits the muzzle and part of it gets reflected back towards the chamber, where it gets reflected back towards the muzzle, repeat ad nauseam. This is still supersonic in metal, so the bullet hasn't left the barrel, and the rifling engaging is causing the barrel to twist opposite the spin of the rifling (trying to make the rifling straight).
@@ScottKenny1978 you would think they would try to get the barrel as fixed as possible though (obviously hard to do with long and short recoil), especially for something like an .50 HMG like the M2
Waiting for the April Fools episode where he covers Blish locks
Not going to top the year he did the Municion L.M.P. 1889
The Elbonian Locked Breach design, where you literally have to take out a house key after every shot to physically unlock it
The blish lock is basically a angled block delayed blowback
This is, by far, my favourite series in the chanel
I love you Ian
Really like this series. Forgotten weapons has taught me more about mechanical systems in weapons than my 4 year engineering degree
@Jordon Carlson ME (B.S.) here. Firearm operating systems were not covered by any instructor in my program, although there were some junior/senior-year projects that probably would have allowed someone the latitude to choose something in this area (for, e.g., demonstrating design principles, stress calculations, material considerations, etc.). To my mind, that makes sense, though. Subjects like statics, dynamics, thermodynamics, etc. apply to everything from firearms to clockworks to car chassis to jet engines. I do feel Arkadeep's complaint, though. Engineering is deep and wide, and I think the most a 4-year degree can give you is a good toolset and starting point to get into your interests in further ed or on your own time.
@Jordon Carlson Good question! Even then, it seems like it might have fallen to on-the-job training within military contractors ... but I could be wrong. Something else worth noting, relevant to your first question, is that although it seems like "mechanical engineering" would be concerned with *mechanisms* as a matter of course, that whole area got only very light coverage in my undergrad at least. I think "physical" engineering might give a better sense of the main subject matter - not at all to trivialize it, just to say there's so much groundwork to learn for the engineering that goes into many commonplace things like guns, engines, motor controllers, and so on.
@Jordon Carlson As James Pray said the mechanical systems of firearms and their designs are not covered in most engineering degrees, it's too specific of a topic and pretty much no undergraduate degree would cover them in any substantial amount. Even in graduate school, you are not likely to come across many colleges that will offer a degree in the specific field of weapon systems, it is more likely to be attached to something like internal/external ballistics and maybe aerodynamic depending on the specific field. Aside from the military academies, there are only a couple of colleges that offer degrees in armament design/engineering in the U.S. and only a handful around the world that offer an equivalent. However, the curriculum that mechanical engineers go through gives them the knowledge and know-how to be able to design a weapon system and they are often much more desirable than an armament engineer.
@Jordon Carlson An undergraduate degree, also commonly called a 4-year-degree, or bachelor's degree is what most people get when they finish all the required classes in their field of study. Sometimes students stay in college for an additional amount of time in order to get their master's degree, also called a graduate's degree, which allows a student to become more knowledgeable in a certain field.
The field of ballistics specifically relates to bullets, unguided bombs, heavy munitions, etc. so it goes hand in hand with the military, not much else. However, there is one particular area that comes to mind where it would be used outside of the military. I don't know of any college that offers a degree in pure ballistics, most of them have it coupled to a field called forensic ballistics which is crime/evidence related. Forensic ballistitians are able to use external ballistics to determine where bullets have been fired from. Internal ballistics focuses on how a projectile moves through a closed space i.e. the barrel of a weapon. It is a very speciallized field that also requires a very high understanding of math, so unless the company you work for is developing new propellants, it has very limited use elsewhere. External ballistics would focus on how a projectile moves in an uncontained environment i.e. outside of the barrel. This is also called projectile motion in physics and is used on much more regualr basis for things as simple as throwing a baseball or shooting an arrow.
As for an armament engineer being more knowledgeable in the firearms operation, you are correct, they would be. When I said that mechanical engineers are often more desirable I was speaking in general. The reason why goes back to the old adage "jack of all trades but master of none, though often times better than the master of one." Mechanical engineers are much more versatile in the job market as a whole, but if a firearms company was hiring between the two then I imagine the armament engineer would be a better choice.
In my ME degree there was only a single problem presented about calculating the muzzle velocity of a projectile. If you know the pressure in the barrel as a function of distance traveled by the bullet, then you can solve the differential equation to work out velocity.
But I wonder whether nowadays even this small piece of firearm related learning has been taken out of the course in order to not trigger students and encroach on their safe space...
Short Recoil, one of John Mosses Browning's holy gifts to man kind
I’m lichen all of Browning’s designs...
You misspelled Hiram Maxim :P
I swear, John Browning literally makes everything when it comes to firearms
Parallel development. Not a unique JMB design.
@@LostTheGame6 The first Maxim gun was made with an adjustable length of travel, initially set to one eighth of an inch. Which worked.
Always love those explenations, not only know i little in general about gun mechanics but mostly stuff in german - and it helps greatly to also have it "shown" so i can bridge the language gap more easily.
Just wanted to thank you for continuing to do what you do, the way you upload videos nearly every day must translate to a lot off work off camera.
Keep it up man love this content.
Just fuckin' casually working as many rare pistols into this video as possible.
Ian, I hope you get to read this. I have always wondered about how short recoil works, and all the other forms of semi automatic/automatic firearm operation. This video is something I’ve wanted to learn about for a long time, and I hope you make more on all the other types of firearms
Excellently made. I'd love to go into a firearms museum and have some of these How Does it Work videos playing alongside the displays.
This sort of general explanation is a really good complement to the in-depth videos on specific firearms. I'd love to see more of them, and would be happy if it was longer than a few minutes. It says a lot about Ian that I can say that!
I have a full playlist of these: ua-cam.com/play/PL9e3UCcU00TRIeypXC53S8r81DZRvoXmu.html
@@ForgottenWeapons Fantastic! Only problem I was intending to get some work done this afternoon but now I'm going to have to learn how the Long Stroke Gas Piston system works. What can you do? Thanks for all your work mate - and I am a Patreon....
Started my day as usual! Coffee, toast, and Forgotten Weapons. May you never run out of content Ian!
Very instructive video ! Thanks.
The MAB P-15 and the Radom VIS-35 are beautiful !
Thank you Ian for finally clearing that up! It's always a different feeling when you have visual access to how these mechanisms work instead of just books or online articles.. 👌
I really enjoy this format, keep making these, I could see these reaching a very wide audience.
This is precisely why the M82A1/M107A1 are NOT sniper rifles
Don't need point accuracy when your target is the size of a car
Correct, they're technically mortars
Only because you're not trying hard enough. :)
Achievement Unlocked: 360 No Scope.
Well, that and the cartridge.
I was thinking we'd see a C-96 or a Luger in the video, but I was surprised when he pulled out the Browning .45 auto. I never really thought of tilting-block action as short recoil. But Ian brilliantly showed that it is. Thanks for clarifying that Ian!
Short video on short recoil, accurately depicting a system that affects accuracy... thanks Ian.
Actually never gave this subject much thought........until you posted this video. Thank you for the education.
Thank Ian, I really enjoy these mechanical operation type videos.
Great video, Ian. Shotguns too: I have a 1949 Remington model 11-48 semi auto shotgun that uses the Browning recoil design. It's a sweet, soft shooter; very nice for trap shooting.
A ballester molina!! this weapon was manufactured in my
neighborhood!!
Ian loves his.
I LOVE this occasional series Ian. Thank you.
Another great addition to an excellent series of videos
Could it be possible to add these little pop-ups at the top when you're handling a weapon, linking to a video on said weapon (if it exists)?
I'd really like to know what handgun it is that you've called "Walther style".
I believe that is a South African model derived from the Beretta 92. Ian did a video about it a while back.
Vektor SP1
ua-cam.com/video/YlyloBewF8E/v-deo.html
Good luck finding one, I'd love to have it myself.
Found it, is a Vektor SP1: ua-cam.com/video/YlyloBewF8E/v-deo.html
Edit:
And the one at 2:47 with the rotating barrel is a French MAB PA-15: ua-cam.com/video/TXxaQZ2uMYU/v-deo.html
If you like the sp1, check out the Stoeger Cougar. It's another Beretta license gun.
Another terrific bit of information. Love this channel.
One of your best video so far !
You forgot to mention the Remington model 8 rifle & the famous FN Browning Auto-5 shotgun that both utilize the short recoil operation. Excellent video non the less.
Those both use *long* recoil operation, not short.
Brilliant thankyou, please could you do a series on mechanisms and principles ? Being a Brit I have limited access to fire arms.
However your documentations more than compensate and provide us with fascinating and privileged insights, any technical education would only further my understanding of your work. These weapons are gone but thanks to your work they are not forgotten!
This is pure excellence. Concise and clear. Amazing work Ian!
This has indeed answered some of my questions. Thanks.
This is such a great idea for a video series!
"Republica Argentina, Armada Nacional". Se me pianto un lagrimon de orgullo.
Vamoo carajo. Kkjj re q flashie lo mismo, al pedo pero lo mismo jajaja
Saw the title and thought "Cool Browning again !!!" And you hear the name in the first 30 seconds of the video.
Weird that Ian said that considering Maxim used and patented the system before Browning.
@@zepetv589 I was thinking pistols, maybe Ian was doing the same.
@@rotwang2000 Even then, Borechardt/Luger is a short-recoil, there was no mention of specifically tilting bolt.
@@zepetv589 I've looked into this and Maxim's system was very different then Browning's. Maxim would naturally try to sue but you have to remember, Maxim invented one gun, Browning did 128 and lord only knows how many patented mechanisms and systems.
The short recoil mechanisms and principals used today were designed by Browning, not Maxim.
Also Browning wasn't an egotistical greedy douchbag like a lot of other inventors in his time.
@@zepetv589 Got it from a handgun innovations book, short-recoil and tilting barrel for the 1911. But then it also mentions the Glock as the first polymer pistol ...
I could watch Ian explain things I already know for just about as long as I could watch him explain things I don’t know, which is basically forever.
Truly, he is the voice of our generation.
Short and sweet educational video. Loved it.
Love these videos! They're very well made. Don't know if it would suit this series, but videos about safety design in firearms might be cool. Not trigger safety but things like gas port safety or other such things.
Thank you for this interesting video! I would very much like to see a series on gun design/engineering basics. Something accessible even for people like me, who know almost nothing about guns. Concepts such as types of ammunition, gun types, barrel length, reloading mechanisms, etc, and more importantly the reasons behind the different choices on any given matter and their practical implications. I think Ian has a very pedagogical approach and it would be great to hear him explain these different things. A book or UA-cam channel suggestion is very welcome too!
This!
Wonderful "How it's Made" vibes
Ian, you should consider doing a follow-up discussion on the Winchester 50 / 59 series of shotguns, using the pretty brilliant David Williams designed floating chamber short recoil system. This created a soft shooting inertia driven shotgun with a fixed barrel. The 59 was further uniquely enhanced with the first steel/fiberglass barrel which made a very light but still comfortably shooting 12 gauge - now largely forgotten.
Great video!! short and direct to the point
Love these videos. Keep em coming.
Great explanation Ian! Love the channel!
I would enjoy to see more from this series
Cool to see that a well worn Vektor got to model her Walther style locking system😉
Fascinating!
Always good to hear about how the mechanics work. Thanks.
Oh god yes! Please make this a regular thing. Love it.
Ian, can we get a How Does It Work on toggle-lock actions? I've always been fascinated by the unique look and motion of the Luger.
This!
The Luger is actually relatively simple, the Pedersen toggle lock, on the other hand... that's mechanical sorcery.
Its always nice to see VIS in your video
Love how the a video primarily about a handgun system opens with a massive matchine gun! 👍👍👍 😂😂😂
Is it primarily about a handgun system, though?
It is a general operating system that has been extensively used in machine guns. While it is currently more common on handguns, historical designs get at least as much focus on this channel as current ones. Possibly even more.
Barret M82 and M107 use this system
You missed the lesson. It's not a handgun system but an operating system applicable to a number of different firearms.
@@dzejrid Amateur philosophers always play games with semantics.
Im pretty sure it began in machine guns though which JMB applied to handguns like the 1911 and many others.
Well done as always. Keep up the good work.
More vids like this please Ian, love seeing the engineering gubbins of firearms! Thanks.
Blessed by Gun Jesus with another round of holy knowledge. Enlighten us more, my lord.
why do fans have to
Amen.. and Ahhwomen
@@lukemasmaximus1616 Not only the amen, but the awomen and the achildern too!
"Round" nice pun
AMEN
You answered questions I did not know I needed to ask
this is when you know you are in the presence of a master of his craft.
when you know plenty allready, and he says, "..another good question is, how does it work?.. let me show you.."
Nice explanation Ian.
hopefully one day we'll see a video on the GM6 Lynx - now THAT is a true reciprocating barrel
The GM6 uses a long stroke recoil system, similar to what the Chauchat used. I wouldn't want to put that gun through a mud or torture test nor spend the fourteen grand for it.
Thanks Ian
Excellent presentation!
Great video. Would you be able to tell me what is a better system and why as far as durability and strength as it pertains to the short recoil system in the short recoil locked breach system. I guess basically a 1911 style pistol and a SIG p220 type of lockup. Thank you very much
Why must you make me drool so much Ian? Why?
Thank you , Ian .
My favourite part of forgotten weapons, even though it's a close call :)
A short video for short recoil firearms, but still great! Thanks Ian.
Everytime I watch Ian talk about guns, it makes me want to play VR games and nerd out about the gun he just talked about.
Games like "Hotdogs, Horseshoes and Hand Grenades" really let me emphasize this :)
I find it interesting that Short Recoil action isn't used often in long guns, but Long Recoil action was. The Browning A5 and others patterned off that design, as well as the Remington model 8 and its subsequent designs are among my favorite guns.
Excellent ... short and sweet!!
Wonderful explanation.
This is going to help me a bunch with my college course, thanks
@@quentintin1 it won't be about the nitty gritty details, but I'm into the audio aspects of my film course, and my tutor wants us to make an audio drama, podcast or historical podcast. So I'm planning to do a history of short recoil, where it has been used, how it was developed, who developed it, etc.
I love these videos on the basic mechanisms of operation for firearms. Could we get a couple on trigger mechanisms or fire control groups?
Thank you for these, really helps get it through to the less technically inclined like me. A couple topics I'm still not entirely clear on are striker vs hammer fired and how exactly extractors and ejectors work; would love to see an explanation on those.
ua-cam.com/video/V2RDitgCaD0/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/EjQrhDKDWFk/v-deo.html
TLDW: Hammer fired has a spring-loaded weight (i.e. the hammer) strike the rear of the firing pin to activate the cartridge's primer; with a striker fired system, the firing pin _itself_ is the spring-loaded weight.
With conventional modern metallic cased ammo, an extractor is a claw or hook that latches onto the rim present on the rear of the cartridge (i.e. the case head), which allows the bolt to drag the case back out of the chamber (extraction). The ejector is any mechanism that then subsequently pushes the case free and clear from the bolt face.
I did not realize you *owned* that Bergmann. Awesome. Those things are so sexy.
Nice to se a MAB, a great French forgotten weapon. Right up your ally Ian. Thanks.
I am a simple Argentinian person: I see an argentinian handgun and I yell WOOOOOO at the top of my lungs.
As always, this was a well presented, concise and educational video.
Thank you Gun Jesus!
For a moment I seemed to hear: "And that's the way it is".
Very well explained. Thank you 👍👍👍👍👍
Really love that Argentinean M1911.
That's a Ballester-Molina. The true argentine 1911 is the Sistema Colt 1927. Both are argentine and very well made for their time.
Thank you!
Loved the video keep them coming
Thank you for this presentation.
The Ballester you show first is still used in Argentina in competition for its accuracy...
Huge knowledge, no macho bs and to the point is why I love this channel. I’m guessing Ian will be doing this long after other “water melon channels” have shut down. It gets kind of boring after you’ve seen the same stuff over and over again.
Very good primer for those who don't know.
I needed this
I love the worn finish on the Walther.
I love to see this same for long recoil.
He has one.
ua-cam.com/video/PdoC8z0r08k/v-deo.html
Browning Double Auto is a fairly contemporary example of a short recoil shoulder arm. High accuracy, of course, is not required.
The Vis on end screen stole my hart.
great explanation, also really good to see and Argentine pistol, particulary one from the navy
I would take a guess that he presented his own Ballester Molina, Ian used this handgun multiple times on the channel or on InRangeTV, you should check it out
@@MultiBenjiiii yes i have seen it before in the channel, great gun. Thanks!
Thank you
2021 needs Forgotten Weapons to be in 4K! :)
My uncle has a double barrel with the brand name don or something like that, the way you load it is by pulling up on a lever that is where the rear sight would be, I have looked it up but I have not been able to find anything like it
Thank you Professor Gun Jesus.
Excelent!, very ilustrative, Greetings from Ballester Molina Country
Never mind. Found your blowblack video from two years ago.
Thanks, just the same!!
Allways welcome your posts
simple, clear, informative! Great as always :)
Ok but why does the barrel and bolt need to move together in the first place?
If your cartridge is weak enough, like the Makarov pistol's cartridge, or your gun is inherently large enough to support the added weight of the parts, like many pistol caliber carbines and sub-machine guns, you can comfortably utilize the unlocked straight blowback system.
However, most handguns are neither of these things, with their inherent compactness and use of relatively higher powered calibers like 9x19mm and higher, so we must use alternate methods to keep the breech closed for longer.
This is where locking the bolt and barrel together comes in. This makes sure that the explosion happening inside the gun doesn't throw the bolt back too early and expose the gases to the shooter's face.
However, inhibiting the pressure inside of the barrel to directly push on the bolt is not an option anymore, so let's look into an alternate way of harnessing the cartridge's power to cycle the gun.
Enter recoil operation. Have you seen a cannon shoot before? The force from the shot pushes the cannon rolling backwards, that's recoil.
Using the same principle, if the barrel and bolt were locked together and given the ability to move freely inside the rest of the gun, the force of the explosion will push back both the barrel and bolt. During this motion, the bolt and barrel will either stop against the back of the gun, still locked together (Long recoil), or unlock in the middle of travel (Short recoil).
Recoil operation, compared to blowback, does not immediately start opening the breech the instant a cartridge is fired, since the breech is locked shut, meaning that the cartridge and gas pressure is contained for a longer period of time, until designed to unlock and open later on during the bullet's travel.
These locked breech systems enable the use of higher pressure cartridges, since the bolt of a blowback system can only be so heavy until it becomes difficult to operate, from weight of the moving parts causing unreasonably violent felt recoil, difficulty manually charging the weapon, and of course, the challenge of carrying a very heavy weapon.
I'm open to questions in case I need to clear some things up. I wrote a very long-winded response, and may have missed a few details.
@@octocolored thank you, this was really insightful :)
@@ErrorCDIV You're very welcome. I'm glad you understood my post.