Tool FAILED In Part Suspended With No RIGIDITY
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2024
- CNC Machining material that is hanging out to far can be almost impossible. Rigidly is everything… In this video we work to solve real chatter problems in real time.
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0:00 uh oh, problem
0:54 Machining on DVF 8000T
1:25 Trial with less Stepover
1:42 Changing the Kennametal KOR 5
2:39 Still too much pressure
2:56 Donnie will shave his head
3:35 EUREKA We solved the problem!
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The vibration is caused by the shock waves of the helical cutter pulling up on the extended part. Every time a flute passes, it lifts the metal block a tiny bit and it resonates at the right frequency. So turning up the feed rate/rpm takes the cutting process out of the natural frequency of the setup and gives you a clean cut. You could also use a symmetrical compression end mill instead of an up cut helix, this would give you neutral cutting forces instead of pulling up and cause the part not to resonate. Common in wood working, less common in metal working. You could also use a lower helix angle cutter which has less pulling force. Or a serrated roughing end mill (the Kor 5 has big gaps in between the chip breakers) a normal serrated rougher would have less pull up since the chips are a lot smaller.
Thank you for the excellent detailed explanation that was lacking in the video 👍
It's really cool of you guys to show this, to show the fact that massive companies can and will have some of the same problems as a guy in their home shop. Even with millions of dollars in tools, there is still trial and error that has to be done and that's part of the process, and not something to feel bad about when you don't get it on the first try. You showed that you need to back up, think about the issue for a little bit, and try a new angle, it's really awesome to see that process play out at this kind of scale.
Thanks. That is very true. Something can always be improved upon. Nobody is going to get it perfect on the first try. I always say, there is only so much you can do when looking at pixels on a computer screen. The real tell is going to be when you're at the machine listening to it run.
TBF "Dave Cox Bald" isn't a punishment, it's a lifestyle...
This event is called chatter. When the CNC reaches a certain frequency range, it can sometimes match the natural frequency of the CNC plus workpiece. Decreasing the rotational speed of the tool will only make the appearance of chatter more evident (if you keep the radial depth plus axial depth). By increasing the rotational speed, you might get out of the chatter frquency. For a more efficient cutting process, it is common to make a stability lobe diagram that gives the axial/radial depth of cut for a given rotational speed.
Thank you, I enjoy content like this. Real world scenarios and finding the solution 👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has days like that! We can all relate.
I think all programmers/machinists have this problem, I think it’s part of engineering! The most frustrating days ever until you work out the solution and then it makes your day
Great tips Jessie! Very applicable solution that will help many people I'm sure!
1:45 I felt that sigh haha. If I had to guess the rush jobs are the ones that were originally at another shop that screwed the pooch and now with a deadline still looming the custy will pay the rush fee to have it done at a bigger shop. Sometimes the other shop just doesn’t have the tooling or experience to do the job. Other times it’s that the job is just a big ol pain in the butt. I think you guys got caught with the latter - but we’ve all been there!
I program our 5 axis Robo Drill and I am ALWAYS fighting rigidity on stainless and titanium. We are always pushing the work envelope to the max. I've found that 5% radial engagement 150% axial high SFM on a half inch chip breaking rougher always works well with minimal to no vibration. Sometimes on some of these parts I repost my program like 10 times before I get something I am happy with.
I would not use full axial depth and just use a 1" rougher with a small vertical step and a .75inch stepover to reduce drive pressures. Vertical pressure is better than side axial pressure in that circumstance...sure it takes longer but consistency wins the race.
Yesssss we want to see bold Donnie Rise to one million BOOM 💥
thank you Mr jessie for this great solution🌷🌷🔥🔥🔥
It's to fit within silent area going up than down on speeds and feeds. Of course you have to step back with the stepover a bit. It's all about modal frequencies of the stock, workholding, tool, machine etc.
Buy some chip splitter rougher/finisher endmills they do really good on full flute engagement.
Hey Jessie, great job explaining what to do and how to relook at what's happening with the cut. I hope we get to to the 1m subs, I so wanna see the video of Donnie getting his head shaved and bic'd 😁.
Moving 2 or more variables at the same time would be confusing, its best to just move one at a time depending on what you want to achieve
Rpm up ( tool pressure reduced) rpm down ( tool pressure increase)
feed rate increased ( tool pressure up) feed rate decreased ( tool pressure down )
step over / depth of cut increase ( tool pressure up ) and in reverse.
it's all situationally dependent and knowing which variable to adjust just comes with experience
moving more then one variable you could effectively 180 your self back in the same mess.
Cool video BTW, Love all the stuff you guys are showing =) thank you for the great content!
Idk about Jessie, but I’ve gotten to speak with this wonderful fella with a mullet on the discord 😂😂😂 but I feel like everybody’s reflex is to slow it down it’s so crazy seeing and hearing the difference!!! Love it! Boom!
lol Maybe we need to promote Beau to Head Strategist 🤣
@@Jessie_Smith His punch line will be "who needs strategy when you got 'sperience! Just do's I say!"🤣🤣🤣
@@StauterAdventureCo. LOL you know the last words the redneck said before he died was "hey ya'll watch this"
I was running some flats on a really long medical drill. Holding it with two vices for rigidity and was still getting too much chatter/ pressure. Ending up switching to a smaller diameter tool with more flutes. Cut like butter. Tool pressure is funny sometimes.
Maybe you could also try convetional milling instead of climb milling, that way the material get pulled and the tension could stay the same instead of the material being pushed and vibrated because of that?
started out with no chip load! IMO too many flutes and crazy long gage length, I would chuck up and choke up on a 3/4" x 3"loc 3 flute alu-power and blast thru that, and yes i have programmed and set up this type of part in a 5 axis w/ 800mm trunnion. and i can't see the dovetail that well in this set up but looks like minimal contact, i use a narrow dovetail width like 1" wide and draw down on the 1" faces on either side of dovetail, (e.g. 3" stock ) yielding maximum contact, looks like in this set-up the little dovetail knicks on both sides of stock create a pivot point.
The big axial was what was killing it , i did lots of parts like that fixed in lang, so less rigid than a dovetail a max of 25mm axial with 0.15MMPT FOR A 12 MM AND FOR 16 MM we do like 0.18MMPT
I would use a small highfeed cuter. I really like the sandvik mh20 in 20mm and 25mm. Im sure kenemetal has something simmilar
I was going to suggest the same with types of variables at play
Hello. I think that the vibrations of the part is up and down, not side to side. The goal should be minimize forces in the less stiff direcion. Trochoidal milling pull the material upward a lot, I would try to reduce the stepdown by half, and increase the stepover.
I could have told you that.. vibrations often come off too little feed / tooth, revolutions and depth are a little more difficult as it resonates in the material and machine.. I would have doubled the step over first
Hi jessie
Heavy cut low feed in rigid clamping
Smaller cut high feed in
Not rigid clamping
Do you recommend cooling water with endmills or it depends of what kind of material ?
1:50 no no no no NO! take the infrared laser metering tool and test the metal composition of that "deflection spot" referenced to the rest of the block as to what that material should be... bad cast that did not mix uniformly.
i would try to raise the z-axis 0.1mm per pass for roughing. Only cutting on one side of the tool. Not the side and the bottom at the same time.
My machine sounds like that with all possible rigidity.
Thanks +GF+ XD
Hope they fix that shit soon.
Could you do a Video about milling a gear because I have no idea how to do that and milling every individual flank isn’t very efficient
Good to see, how to solve problems
the force doesn't just disappear...it finds a path into something nearby.
design a rigid process and keep smiling : )
Everybody loves Trevor!
I once watched an old timer on a bridgeport fighting a problem with chatter. He kept hitting the on of switch so the spindle rpm went up and down and up and down and so on. Can you reproduce that on a cnc machine? I have no clue if that can help you but at least it might be worth trying if everything else fails. The idea is that you are less likely to get harmonics when the rpm is not constant.
Add and obscene amount of clay to the workpeice to dampen vibrations (?)
Trevor's hairline!! 😂😂 He knew it was getting worse because it took him longer to wash his face!! 🤣🤣🤣 Boom 💥 ❤😂💯👍🏻
😆 Let’s just say I might be shaving my head soon wether we hit 1 million subscribers or not 😭
@trevorgoforth8963 love you really mate, learnt alot from you Sir!
@@cdmChase1 Thanks brother, we appreciate your support!
How many feet do they go before a re-sharp? How can you tell how "sharp" the tool is?
A 1" steel plate clamped above and below the aluminum billet would cut the harmonics down
There are also other ways to reduce vibrations for this type of clamping. Check for schunk stabiliser. But yes for aluminum it works to increase the speed and reduce the Ae or Ap. For stainless steel or titanium its a bit tricky You will destroy the tool much faster
We used the Schunk Stabilizer at my previous job on some 15-5 Stainless forgings. It's amazing how much they help for sure.
Imo a 1" sc end mill is too big for a 40 taper machine. 5/8 and smaller. Less expensive, just as efficient.
Your problem is you’re programming in inches but your drink is in metric.
Now I see the problem. I need a new drink! 🤣
@@Jessie_Smith I'm surprised Titan doesn't have his own brand of energy drink called Boom!
It's the jaw, change the operation for a bigger clamp.
I was wondering why you were running so slow. Hi feed, high speed, light stopover and hand on the rpm override is how you do it lol
This is not 1/4 endmill.... it is 1/2 at least. It just doesnt look like axial depth is 8xD...
VABRATION!
Always a school day 😊
Hello, you stopped than started again, How did you do it?
I just restarted the program from the beginning.
@@Jessie_Smith thank you )
Rough conventional finish climb.
Hey Jessie How to calculate MRR
MRR = Ae x Ap x IPM (MRR = Radial DOC x Axial DOC x Inches/min.)
@@spikeypineapple552 wtf are you talking about? He is asking for the formula for Material Removal Rate. which is what I gave him. I don't know what you mean by MY way and some random number. It is anything but random. If there is something you don't like then feel free to leave the channel dude.
You where having harmonic problems as the material was going into some sort of resonance so the solution is to get out of resonance.
Спешка нужна только при ловле блох;)
By the time you sped up the tool, you were already away from the problem area so this isn't really a solution in my eyes. Also i noticed that it only vibrated when it was cutting parallel to the vise but when i turned corner and started feeding towards the vise, it didn't vibrate anymore.
Coolant failure first
Yeah coolant is definitely a must but makes for a hard video to watch so no coolant is only for filming purposes.
can we release a titans of cnc mug ?? plsss
How about styles and sizes of billet beer mugs?
I agree
That's not cool, you changed your toolpath, and then not even going to that particular point on the perimeter where the chatter was maximum during your solution.
So... Bo No Go was right. Just saying.
Jessie is one of the nice guys. After the 3rd attempt I would have been zero to rage in a heartbeat instead of cracking jokes.
Maybe we need to listen to Bo a little more lol 🤣
It would be so cool to see CEE colab with Titans of CNC
how could a repair machinist (a smart ass Aussie) and titans colab?
There is no need to make mistakes, this is exactly what Blue Swarf does easily with maximum efficiency
🇧🇷✊🏽💥💣
It's hard to watch your video's with all that trash talking you send.
No feelings were hurt during the filming of this video. We have a strict zero snowflake policy here.
Did you try a smaller depth of cut?
yes. with the first tool I started at .100" radial (usually I'm at .150") then I dropped it to .060" but still didn't work so that is when I went to a smaller tool. tried to leave it at .060" but still had to decrease it. As far as axial depth, I left it the same throughout the process.
@@spikeypineapple552 lol I never said I used .100fpt that would be ridiculous. read again, we are talking about the depth of cut not the feedrate.
@@Jessie_Smith sorry, Jessie, I meant axial depth of cut. I should’ve mentioned not in the first place. that’s just what I would have done, then followed up with a depth of cut that was a lot bigger for the finish pass. Of course the machines I work with have a lot less rigidity, which is probably why I do it that way.
@@dickgoesinya4773 no worries. Another big aspect of a successful operation is knowing your machine and tailoring the process around what you have to work with. So if you found what works for you and you are making good parts then you are doing a great job! For this, we were trying to show one way to solve a problem and how slowing things down is not always the answer. (which is what our first instinct usually is). So to add to what you are saying, if I was at the point (with this tool) that I needed to add multiple axial depth of cuts then at that point the KOR5 and dynamic milling strategy is pointless, or rather, useless. So at that point I would go to an indexable cutter and use a traditional toolpath where you have a small axial depth and a large radial depth. I would also use a traditional roughing path to limit the small arcs from trochoidal milling which is going to add a lot of cycle time due to the accel/decel values on the machine.
slover is sometime beter
did you ever heard about job safety🤣🤣🤣if you know what i mean