Tired Arguments, Atheism’s Logical Fallacies, and "Women Should Submit" | Talk Heathen 08.10
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- #religion #debate #equality
00:00 Intro
31:08 Blind Limey-TX | Tired Old Theistic Arguments
41:15 Conner-TX | Not All Theists Are Argumentative
1:00:57 Rob-TN | Women Should Submit In The Relationship
1:14:20 Miguel-(ES) | Atheism: A Logical Fallacy
1:27:49 Josh-IN | Explaining Inexplicable Experiences
Welcome to Talk Heathen! This week we have Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. and Doctor Ben hosting your questions and queries.
First up, the infamous Blind Limey challenges believers to call in with new, or good, arguments. The good book does say you should defend your faith. Yes please call in if you want to defend your beliefs or if you have questions.
Conner in TX wanted to comment about the Blind Limey’s call, pointing out that some theists don’t want to involve themselves with other peoples life. What role does this god play in our lives? This messenger, or god even, that progresses humanity sounds superfluous. Humans can fulfill this without any gods or messengers.
Ron in TN thinks it’s wise for a woman to submit to the man in a relationship, men are better in logic. Whoa, bold claim while a medical doctor is hosting. It’s clear you don’t understand what you are talking about when it comes to medical science and just making baseless claims.
Miguel In Spain claims atheism is a logical fallacy, atheists assume a sky daddy so we claim that god doesn't exist. First off, we don’t claim that god doesn’t exist. We are not convinced by the arguments and evidence presented. Ugh, the “nothing can’t make something” argument. Even if we concede all of your points up to god, how can you prove that it was god that started the universe and not anything else?
Josh from IN has seen some unusual, possibly supernatural, things and wants to know how to explain them naturally. Try coming up with some explanations, no matter how far-fetched, and try to rule those out. Have the ability to just say I don’t know, we may figure it out later. Nothing magical has been discovered throughout history.
Thanks for tuning in! This week's Talk Heathen To Me prompt is: What’s something God stole credit for? Comment on this video and the top 3 will be read live on air next week!
WHAT IS TALK HEATHEN?
Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in internet show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
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The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop & support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing & friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of government-religion separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists & to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
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NOTES
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"It's just common sense" - the inevitable end point for someone who does not have or cannot defend his argument.
As well as who has never read an actual book.
@@iconifyme luckily for him they're available in audiobook and AI-voiced Short formats for the illiterate
Everyone can be wrong, and we usually are. I'm not likely right about this.
@@seivaDsugnA no, no, you're absolutely right! Everyone can be wrong! Wait, maybe I'm wrong about that...
The callers of today's show:
31:07 Blind Limey - Have theists run out of ideas?
41:15 Connor - Some theists don't want to overimpose on other people's lives.
1:00:57 Rob - Women must submit in a relationship.
1:14:21 Miguel - Atheism is a fallacy.
1:27:48 Josh - Inexplicable experience and how to parse that from a scientific standpoint.
What I'm not seeing is MichaelangeloPi, who claimed, REPEATEDLY, that he would call in today.
Someone once stole my credit card number. No culprit was ever identified, so I'll count that as God stealing my credit.
He does love other peoples money
Well, what else could it have been? Obviously god.
Your right Doctor Ben...I was in and out of ICU...Then bottles of antibiotics... Tossing my cookies but not being able to eat... Losing 72 lbs... Thanking all my Doctors for going to med school! Many thanks to Doctor Ben! You too Sydney!
@@rachaeljohnson3217 I’m glad you thanked the doctors, I was in the medical field for a while and worked with some very talented doctors. I always felt bad when someone was saved and the family started thanking god for saving them. I always took that as huge insult to the doctors, that spent so much time, sweat, tears and away from family learning to be a great doctor. I knew a neurosurgeon who would send out another doctor that was present during surgeries because he was so sick of people going into this song and dance about god and Jesus being the one that saved a life. It’s so disingenuous and unappreciative.
Wouldn't surprise me if god did steal your credit card number. After all, look at all the terrible things the insurance companies say god does.
1:08:32 "Men are designed to lead because males lead."
Rob, anybody who could say that sentence and mean it is not intellectually, logically, or educationally equipped to discuss these things seriously.
Oof. I really had to take a minute to sit in awe at Ben's demeanor in handling Rob's utter nonsense. I have to imagine the internal thought process included something like: "Don't flay someone alive on live TV. Don't flay someone alive on live TV..."
The more I see these videos, the more I see who these callers are. They become more transparent.
Rob's sources are Phrenology Weekly and Ubermensch Digest
Bold to assume Rob reads things
Rob trying to school dr Ben on “common sense” biology is hilarious
See it's because a man's brain is like a laser beam or something.
It really isn't. There are millions of Americans who rely on their "common sense" and "internet research" instead of actual medical doctors, scientists, and the sum of the scientific research.
Rule of thumb: if someone says “I study X” and don’t immediately list their credentials like Rob, they aren’t just wrong, they’re lying. Rob is proof men are not more logical than women.
I also guarantee that Miguel is not a psychologist, because if he was he wouldn’t have given psychology as his credential for understanding logic.
I hope he's not. Can't even imagine the pain and discomfort of being a patient of this guy.
I study XXX, does that count/
@@cnault3244What are your credentials? :)
@@Leith_Crowther My credentials? Well, I am a member of good standing....
@@JayMaverick- "I'm a psychologist, and I was an atheist for a long time. So, I know what atheists think (even if you atheists don't share those stances), and I get to special plead my god as "The First Cause." Essentially, argument from my arse. 😂
Testosterone = Focus Laser Beam = men being more Logical than women lol. Great call. The hosts are awesome 👏👏👏👏
🥹🙏🏻
Ya well if caller is right the scholars at universities should just be bodybuilders and not actual educated teachers.
Have you taught history before , no but check out my blood test.
My testosterone is super high
That's why I always injected myself with testosterone before a big exam. 😂
Rob making up his own Biology book
I love these two, take no prisoners!
This has been...... This has been.
Awesome conclusion by Sydney. 😄
😂😂😂🤷♀️
Rob- Rectal Philosopher
The pattern of callers who refuse to state their pronouns having garbage positions continues.
Yep, it's a very reliable indicator of what's to follow.
I’m shocked and appalled to learn that the more transphobic callers are also the dumbest.
Not a coincidence @@Leith_Crowther
Who would have thunk it?
It's so tiring. I study language and culture for funzies and there's so many awesome conversations to have about gendered pronouns and nouns.
But it's always just some douche attempting to be mean.
Rob:" I'm just developing my thoughts". well let me know when they finally develop..
Spoiler: they ended up stillborn
I REALLY wanna see a biology textbook writen by rob. Like, full 20 chapters going over the entire human body and how it works.
What did God steal the credit for?
Gets credit for the one house that was safe from the tornado, while downplaying that a tornado is itself considered to be an “act of god.”
Something tells me Miguel is NOT a psychologist/psychiatrist.
Something tells me he needs to lie about everything or his worldview will crumble, and he is terrified of being wrong and having wasted his life on nonsense. So he closes his mind off and uses a childish understanding of logical cause/effect to define his imaginary friend into existence
1:04:28 👈 I think that Rob from TN was reading the back of a generic Viagra box that he had acquired at the 7/11, when Dr. Ben asked about the effects of testosterone on the brain.
EXACLY! "Energy, focus, drive" those are all buzzwords used by BS bonerpills. The reason they use these terms are because they mean absolutely nothing, and therefore they can't get sued when the pill does nothing.
Hilariously accurate. 😂
" makes one full of vim and vigor"
Sydneys' reactions when she's hearing crazy stuff 😂
😅😅😅
BEN vs Rob: BEN JUST SLAMDUNKS...
LOVE YOU, BEN!!!!
Dynamic Duo! Sydney Jr Jr and Dr. Ben!
🥹🙏🏻
Consenting to submit is often a problem because it's almost always a young woman who's been socialized in a patriarchal society and then she matures, learns from experiences, and realizes that's not the life she wants for herself.
Amazing how much incredulity equates to theists' 'facts'!
For Josh - there's a call in show on Sirius XM that has a segment every Thursday evening with 2 people of the First Nations (their preferred term for speaking of the ethnic group as a whole). If you can, look up the John Fugelsang show, and call in during that segment. A question along the lines of how you might be able to carry out your "study" without being disrespectful is just the kind that they seem to really love to get! And who better to ask than 2 people who highly value their tribal heritage but also are actively trying to help lessen the gap in cultural understanding & respect?!
Caller Miguel said he could prove God must exist, but what he then did was really to repeat William Lane-Craigs favourite the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which simply says that if the universe “BEGAN” to exist, then it must have had some “prior CAUSE”. But of course the rebuttal to that, as Ben noted in very few words right at the end, Miguel is just claiming that "the universe needs a cause, but God does NOT need a cause”. OK, well obviously that's just special pleading from Miguel.
But one other thing that Miguel said was that he asked the hosts to look at everything around them and look at everything that has ever happened in the universe, and he said every one of those countless things clearly had a “cause”. Well, Miguel - since the development of modern science, science has explained literally many millions of those things, and in every single case the cause has turned out to be entirely natural … with not even the most microscopic hint of any supernatural God involved! So, as far as you raising that point is concerned, the score so far is 100 million things all with entirely natural causes vs. Zero things with any God as the cause.
Making water into wine is easy. Just mix in some fruit and let stand. Monkeys figured this out a long time ago.
You can also just wave your hand over it and say “ta-dah”… that’s what priests do.
The limey laying it down! good man.
What's something God stole credit for? All of creation.
God even stole credit for creating evil, for fuck’s sake!! Isaiah 45:7
What did God steal credit for? Mary’s baby.
and every case of "knitting in the womb". Some human - human fukking always needed. Somehow.
The father was definitely one of the Duggars. You can guess which one, since Mary was underage.
❤❤❤
Dr. Ben!
I really appreciate the courage it takes to be a host and expose oneself to all kinds of potential abuse. I am hoping the following criticism is constructive, and not hurtful.
I find it frustrating that the newer hosts over the past couple of years seldom cut to the core of an issue, viz, reasons and evidence for callers' claims. Granted, the hosts are much nicer people than Matt D, but they waste so much time circling round and round, never getting to the crux as he does. For example, the guy who claimed his god was behind progress was never asked why he believed it, nor asked to provide evidence for the belief. Instead, there was a tangent on if he thought it was *necessary*. The hosts just said they didn't think it was; the equivalent of "Well, I don't think so." That appears to make the whole issue one of opinion. They never got around to asking the caller to justify his claim. The first question should have been: Cool, why do you believe that?.
Also, it is like nails on a chalkboard for me when I hear a host say "I feel like...", particularly when they are arguing with a caller about what they feel! The whole point is not to base beliefs on how one feels. And it puts it on that same basis of 'you have your opinion and I have mine'.
I doubt I could think on my feet fast enough to be successful as a host, even after more than a decade of following debates and calls, an undergrad degree in Philosophy, and being a lifelong atheist. So I do sympathize and empathize, despite my frustration. I really appreciate the ACA and want to see it grow and improve. I think it was a healthy move to step away from a cult of personality.
The Bible does say the quality of wine. The friend of the father of the bride pulled him aside and pointed out, "Why are you bringing out the good wine" because you would bring out the good wine at the beginning of a feast but switch to cheaper wine when the crowd has had a few.
Rob is either a prank caller, or high.
Or just stupid.
Or both.. there's that option.. lol
Rob, you embarrassed yourself and even worse you do not realize you did.
Hahahahhaha!!! That message!! Hahahah😂😂😂😂😂
I know.. an attempt at gaslighting gone into cray cray ville. That's why one shouldn't go on a bender of RedBull, Crack and Jack Daniels and then make a call.. And those dates appear to be the dates the called in and tried this b.s. before. He's a "regular" and was pretty much laughed at. His talking points about the devil really telling them/revealing his message to them sound so familiar.
If I were Josh I would wear night vision goggles lol when he goes to these things.
Miguel has been trolling the comments of atheist videos with his ignorance for several months now. His strawman has been explained to him already, several times as a matter of fact, so any time taken by the hosts to explain this to him was likely wasted. He has his strawman, and he is too committed to it to abandon it with a simple debunk.
Miguel, what kind of so-called psychologist would dare make such an absurd statement like "atheism is a logical fallacy"? Surely an armchair psychologist at best.
He's likely a truck driver that thinks he's a psychologist because "I think therefore I am" lol
I can’t believe someone messaged in about people in hospital being prayed for recovering quicker. I have to assume they have heard of the most famous study, the one by the Templeton Foundation ? that I understand didn’t show that at all and that it was in fact 50/50 so no better than chance, and worse still, for the group who knew they were being prayed for, the result was actually very slightly worse, ie it could be argued it had a negative effect.
This is absolutely what they were referring to. It's amazing how they just lied about what the study found, and expected the hosts to go along with it
Ben: I use this methodology
Josh: I did that!
Immediately proves he did nothing of the kind…. It seems very obvious dude REALLY REALLY wants to believe some woo bullshit, and his “skepticism” is the most flaccid, weak version of skepticism imaginable. Like, don’t pretend like you’ve done anything much to figure out what happened or eliminate natural explanation when everything you’ve said shows you haven’t really done shit and what you did do was loaded with assumptions and bias. Be serious my dude.
Miguel no lo capaste.
Atéos no estamos proponiendo que no existe ningun diós.
Solo es que no estamos convencidos que los dióses que nos han sugeridos existen.
No estamos convencido en ninguna proposición de un/a diós/a.
NO estamos diciendo que no existe un diós.
Ojalá te queda claro, mi pana.
God not only stole credit for love and goodness he actually claims he IS love and goodness.
Something about Miguel's call was intensely painful. The arrogant assumptions and complete disregard for what is being said is so frustrating to listen to.
Feels like... for "ROB-TN's" call - might have made the point faster, to let Sydney take the call haha.
Maybe Miguel's accent is affecting me, but, whenever he says "atheist," I want to say:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Our brains are tricksy - often interpreting things in weird and wonderful ways.
Sometimes I wonder how memes work and their pervasive nature in penetrating our thoughts and actions. Then I hear people readily adopt irrelevant words into conversation (like), fail to identify it, correct for it, and it begins to make sense how we could mimic other things that escape our scrutiny.
God stole credit for literally EVERYTHING.
Great haircut.
Enjoyed the show but Ben took over... I wanted I to hear from Sydney
I hate that God stole the credit for morality.
Doctor Ben is so smart that he has no idea when he's being trolled. I've seen him shaken up too many times.
Rob thought it was a good idea to talk to a doctor about hormones ? What a nut.
"Where men is superior is in logic."
I haven't finished yet, but I get the feeling he's not gonna be a very good representative of that idea for the duration of the call.
That voicemail was some good roleplaying. Get that mic out of his mouth and there's potential for voice acting! 😂
In answer to Blind Limey's question (00:34:00) - Religion seldom innovates, that's the point. Almost all traditional religious beliefs propose certain things ARE as they always WERE, I would not be surprised if the same types of evidences recur over and over - because the claims of faith that inspire the experiences haven't evolved, and have been massaged to tickle the same human intuitions and mental pitfalls - People haven't innovated much on the ideas cobbled from our basest, least critical ideas because that stuff takes epochs to become altered.
I worked for a large animal veterinarian. I've seen gay cows, which even some very uneducated and "traditional" farmers laughed about.
I've seen gay dogs, and way back in the 80s, there was a two million dollar grant given to study the behavior of gay seagulls.
Therefore, gender is complicated in mammals, so maybe people who don't know any better are just ignorant.
Victory. God had stolen credit for countless victories...sports, awards, wars, you name it.
What did God steal credit for? Science.
We do the hard work and end up with people saying it was in the Bible/Quran all along.
Miguel was debating milion times with his reflection in mirror
Also "god cause because his uncause" 😂😂😂😂😂
I feel like Rob is doing a piss-poor impression of Jordan Peterson.
Maybe Rob watched a video or two of Jordan Peterson, didn't understand a word of it, but now he thinks he can call this show and dazzle us with his newfound Petersonian wisdom.
The only way you could credit gods for boosting civilization, would be the creation of suffering. Sleet and snow are great building construction motivation.
What is the worth, value, and importance of Jesus Christ to imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings?
ANSWER -
The Creator KNOWS
that all persons on earth who willingly submit to the authority of his Christ and believe his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead"
are
clearly the loving, kind, and respectful Followers of Jesus Christ on earth
who
are NOT worthy and deserving of humiliations, degradations, insults, sufferings, and deaths
but
worthy and deserving of his favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death.
Jesus Christ KNOWS
that his teaching about the "Resurrection of the Dead"
is
the Creator's guarantee that all loving, kind, and respectful persons on earth who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Job, Ruth, Naomi, King David, his Followers and disciples, and many others
will
all be RESURRECTED back to life so they can happily, abundantly, and peacefully live and exist on earth forever
as subjects and citizens of the "KINGDOM of GOD"
and fully enjoy his and the Creator's eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity
under his loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth.
God stole credit for the creativity in art and music, and now we have A.I.
What is something god took credit for? Every single stubbed toe ever!
Did anyone else initially think of a different meaning of "submissive"?
Rob - "males, he's designed to lead because males lead"
So this is garbage. I've worked with women are are way better leaders than many men I've worked with.
And it also really depends on the situation. My fiance is an amazing leader on some projects compared to me, whereas I'm a better leader on other aspects. It is almost as if people are people, and we have individual strengths and weaknesses.
I guess Rob also believes men are meant to get testicular cancer because god designed them that way.
Rob is classic case of confirmation bias run amok.
Prayers are as useful for the sick, as spells and witchcraft are useful for the army for defeting the enemy.
I was thrown off when Dr Ben talked about being in women’s Bible studies.
BTW that voice mail was from the tooth guy, who has also been on other networks. He doesn't seem well mentally, and I'm not sure how ethical it is to use his ramblings for effect. Thought you should know since I recognized his voice and what he was saying.
The dates he was talking about he says that a god spoke to everyone in our heads and that if you say you didn't hear it, then you're lying. He obviously didn't think about how half the world was probably asleep, and no one talked about this happening, which is weird for something that would have been so specific. I think these are dates that he heard things in his head, which tells me this guy isn't someone we should mock but someone that needs some help.
I knew a cab driver who’d go on about seeing the Virgin Mary on very specific dates. I caught his cab three times (lucky me), can’t recall if the dates were always the same but he made a point of stressing when the visions had taken place.
…I just hoping he wasn’t driving at the time.
“Men are more logical”, try saying that in a room full of drunk men.
Ya those dates are times the caller has been institutionalized in a mental health care facility. That voicemail is from a person who calls the ACA shows.
LOL.. true dat! But seriously, I think those dates are the dates taht he called and tried to convince the hosts that they really have heard from god or satan or whatever and are in denial. His sh-t spew sounds so familiar as I recall a call with this guy.. his voice and crap sounds sooo familiar. he was laughed and just shoved off.
Those are the dates when God spoke to all of us. It's weird that he is the only one who remembers it.
@@cameroncimmerius1203 um...I call bullsh-t. The guy is cracked.. just like DUHmanuel and the "Seven day cycle" guy.
The Bahai faith has had recent secterian upheavels regarding Bahai's founder who emphasized the moral superiority of male disciples and the needed subservience of female followers....
GOD stole credit for saving Humanity from eternal hell; but his religion preaches that most of us end up in hell on Judgement Day.
Why so much time without callers?
It was daylight saving in the US but not the rest of the world (and some states I believe) we always have dead time at this time of year when people don't realise the clocks have changed
@@sceptictakeout6809 okay no worries, thanks for the reply. The upcoming week just doesn't feel right if I don't have a bunch of crazy people to listen to starting on my Sunday podcasts
God yook credit for fixing a problem he created
God has been stealing credit for LOVE forever
Rob might have been eating paint chips again. Josh needs to look up The Amazing Randy, then ask these people why their magic/god/supernatural stuff cant work with the lights on.
No time codes...
I think Connor has called a few shows before about the Bahai faith... 🤔 it does sound familiar
I think Miguel was surprisingly unprepared for this discussion considering he has debated "millions of atheists" 🤔
Primitave Indigenous tribes still alive today, Native American History taught in lower school, the history channel, the discovery channel, many documentaries, Tv. Men would hunt and fight, women would cook, forage, and raise children, the Aandaman islanders still alive today for example. Thats where he got his information from, which is what he calls common sense.
God stole credit for inventing monotheism, causing major problems later when revealing that he's really three gods.
God has stolen credit for the Rainbow, yet we all know She stole it from the LGBTQ+ community 🌈
when could the theists using the contingency argument understand that infinite regress is logically impossible, not because it doesn't exist, But because human brain is used and our ability to reasoning is limited to finite steps.
The universe only follows it's own logical necessity, It really doesn't care of limitation of understanding it.
Women suffering through pregnancy would make them tougher.
It must not take much to become a psychologist in Spain….
Best definition for psychology that I have heard is "psychology is a collection of observations in search of a science".
Ben,
I know how to do Diff dx. I mean, I've seen Greg House do it a hundred times... :)
But I don't think your explanation was clear enough.
You kind of blasted it out to Josh at around 1:30:00 or so, but I don't think you can just info dump the Diff dx process on a person - it's just too hard to follow the process that way. Maybe Josh seemed to get it but people who have no experience with this kind of thing could easily get lost in an info-dump like that.
Maybe next time, walk the caller through it.
Hey, tell me one experience that seems hard to explain.
OK, now let's brainstorm several reasons for that experience you just shared.
OK, now that you came up with several possibilities, let's pick the first one and try to falsify it - this is how we think about it.
Now let's pick the second one.
Etc.
I think if you handhold a person as you walk them through their first exposure to the Diff dx process, they're more likely to understand it and possibly even take it away and use it on their own.
This is a fair criticism. I usually try to walk them through it if I know we have the time in the show, but we had a few callers still in the queue at the end of the show so I sped through a bit.
If I could be the puppet that Sydney is using, that would be nice.
What has god stolen credit for?
Everything. Literally.
We are blind so we cant see the angels ? So does this mean that if I found this guy and got to meet him. He could point at an angele out on the street ? That would be cool. Id love to meet him and have him point out an angel that he apparently can see but I cant.
Testosterone causes logic.
That's why the largest body builders are also our most inspired philosophers.
Socrates was jacked, don't ya know?
Bow down to me wamens, for I am Man
If a god can exist eternally, then a non-god force can exist eternally. Special pleading Miguel.
Sorry not sorry Spanish caller. A thinking mind is only observed as a byproduct of a complex process of evolution, having one before the universe is infinitely less probable than that universe itself.
Wow, dude has a bad pizza, with perhaps some extra chemical stimulation, dream and immediately thinks that it is a vision from God.
What has god stolen credit for?
Banging Mary when she was just a teen fooling around with the boy next door.
oh the irony... Rob claiming men are superior in logical thinking..