Still a terran here, I love the mass changeling style but I've been wondering for years why zergs don't use mass overseer to spam contaminate on terran production to shut down their macro
Early game you need the gas for other things, and contaminate takes what 125 energy? So with a normal build you can realistically get a few overseers with enough energy to contaminate by like 7-8min. If you're talking late game Terran already has turrets everywhere so you're sacrificing overseers every time.
Keep harping on the forward bases! Especially when zerg already has nydus network (3 of them in game 2!), just put a work at the back of each of the forward bases, and you can saturate and retreat so easily. Serral does it every time.
Nope, nothing reveals changelings. If they haven't transformed yet then your units will auto target them but otherwise you have to manually click them.
This feels like a custom built strat to fuck with players that have injuries, especially terrans. Just forces them to click over and over again, stressing their wrists and shoulders. If you did this to Byun, at LAN, in like a best of 9 in every game he’d have to forfeit by game 3.
Its a really cool move. Imo though its also a mistake in the design of the game. Changelings should be detected by detection, and once detected they should behave like enemy units and be auto killed. Its a super inconsistent interaction, and it leads to really stale gameplay where the only hope the terran has is to lock the doors, turtle up and play click sim for 30 mins. Yes it has downsides but its a really one sided interaction and theres literally no counter other than 'constantly click and pay attention' which is anti fun
Toss is toasted vs the mass overseers strategy. Army trading army and mass Contaminate vs re-maxing will spell the fall of Toss. Rogue just broke the game :)
Rogue understands that If all your attention is on putting out fires (nydus, changlings,etc) you can't win effectively. This is great. I want to see this game get broken so it gets patched correctly.
@91010186 obs are good, its just too much tech required to get it up and running. If you want to PVT to feel more straightforward, I suggest you put 3 probes on gas as soon as it warps in. Cyber core 2nd gas (2 probes in it) Stargate or robo or twilight Nexus. Get gas ASAP. Gl.
43:13 - 29 minutes. This is hte point where the game goes null... not entirely sure why, and changing out drones from 60 maybe to 50 to colelct the outlining rsses first and then kill off or convert. Alternative, you spend 1200-3000k on hatcheries where you want your production and last stand... The only unit that is effective against long range is brood lords, and ocmbine with Infestors and lurkers to disrupt snipes with back line helaing queens zerg has a very cost effective means of removing units and buildings and combined with the changlings, its like Rogue turned off and had to shit or headache or something. Then the spoiler, game becomes in consquencial and should have never been a draw... He should of did another mass push at 32, to either knock off that base or keep the bank of the terran taxed and production... he had plenty of opprtunities of doing structural attrition... In end game which started pretty much at 30 minutes... minerals left on teh map, but all of it coudl of been mined from rogue easily and transitioned out... Turtle terran typically isonyl effective until tempests and broods and bc's start picing away at yoru shit for free. The best end game movements why I enver think their can be a draw is if hte bank is big enough you want to maximize yoru damage. If yo uboth have 10 k rss, and bot hmatched armies so lets say 1 to 1 trading... The additional damage comes from production speed, the means ot hit those production marks, liek supply depots or pylon removal, overlord killing is eventualyl a army cap, which then affects the trade ration as there is a larger form of damage discrepancy at hand... Rogue had about 4 more zerg waves with a hold army minerla cap... pushing would of been effective. Also, corruptors can change into brood lords anywhere, the no fly zones can allow you to change broods inbehind the main late game and get structure damage... Destroying a barracks removes teh enemies unti to produce 1 cycle/ or two... Removing a supply depot eventaully limits the volume of economic cycles a production unit can append. Even sitll without broods... he can effectively remove etrrans army over and over... Maybe rogue is fearful of bio ball, but contiual damage to cc's supply depots cna be effective.. He had ungaurded and open ov spot for putting ina nydus... the most common algorithm proven in the like the 60's to win any game is tit-for-tat strategy wins more in a long ago experiement of machines and programs fighting it out, and the machine that won 90% of hte tiem did tit, for tat, a simple concept. If you lose an over lord kill a depot... sort of relation. at the 49:53 -- 39 minutes gt.... Byun lost... 5000 minerals and 300 gas to command centers. and 17 turrets at this point (1700) Hard to say the total value, and Rogue also did a many in effective angles andtrading but he can see everything, He strat isn't that expensive, since overseers still count as overlords, so additional 50/50 is what it costs, typically you never rebuild overlords, exactly... How to a view units.. Banneling can do shock damage to infrastructure and untsi allwoing you to overwhelm your enemy. They are not cost effective, against buildings, but they can remove them quickly and in death they do damage to whomever is near by. No value until utlized, one time use. Not cost effective. Overseer can do production shock value temporarily allow you to over whelm your enemy by stopping their means of production. Infnite value unti ldead. Cost effective. Brood lords are flying tanks of zerg, they are effective. TO be fair... Personalyl l ike going broods, so I can go hydras and have more options with lurkersn and placements, since, I woudl rather death with ghosts and vikings then bio ball and tanks when attack, so every unit you force to counter your move, you can make a remaxing choice to easily over whelm teh target. 36 overlords is 288 supply.. which is slightly higher, than needed.. typically having around 8 extra lords allows you to get vision and expend htem as they work like observors, overlord is a multi tiered unit, that only cost sminerals.. so losing 3-4 for outpost vision is liek losing a observer... THis allows you to not be supply blocked.. also if you ever get supply block as zerg, you need to build and exceed an exactly ammoutn so you can rebuild your army as fast as possible and you have no idea if your goign ot keep losing overlords at this point. if your down 16 supply.. take the tiem into account and the situation so building 8 in response makes sense, if you lose two more, you only gain a net of from the original loss of 32 supply... Late game zerg.. having around 264-288 supply in over lords is perfectly fine... You should have them anyway, its like most players even terran build extra, ccs and depots sometimes.. even protoss extra pylons. I think you are over thinking the investment of overlords... lets say average game is 40 overlords... he lost 16 in total. 128 supply. if he had exaclkt enoug hfor 200 supply, that hit is huge, it would cause a deficit to your larva production, where as if you have 288 its not too big... and too larva costly, overlords are a future produciton unit that is very important. 25 overlords is exactly 200. (not counting hatcheries (equal about 1 overlord in the end game) If you had 25 overlords and lost 16... that is game over... where as if you had 36 over lords nad lost 16 your very much in it still. 72 cappa, verse 160 cappa... is massive... all becuase you ahve like 36 overlords.. keep in mind tehy are scouting units, and yoru not trackign the terrans... nevermind.. protoss scouting untis that owuld die or be used, etc.. Overlords are tanky, and overseers gain 1 amor and become a higher class unit... To convert your overlords to over seers.. 40 of them thats about .. 2000 minerals 2000 gas... hardly costly.. and you then get abiltiy to use scouting increased armor verse specific units, making maries harder to kill them, and you don't need overlord speed as they get a massive free speed boost, and if you do get hte upgrade they are even faster. is it expensive if its something you ahve to build... anyways... like pylons or supply depots that are a static unit. Overlords are LORDs for a reason.. Lord of hte skies, the great flesh kingdom... Lets think about this even more... Forced to get... atleast 24 overlords in a game, to have 200 supply, thats with counting hatcheries. thats if you never lose any overlord, never need an overseer, adn never use them to scout, keep them safe... thats 2400 mineral investment... That is not ideal since peopel will kill them if they can, etc. Of course cloaked and burrowed enemies are a thing, all the time... so already your going to have to put some in the front line. ROgue lost 16 overlords.. 8 normies and 8 overseers, which losing onyl 8 overseeirs is amazing since they are at hte front lien but are faster and amor is greater. Overlords with +3 armor is super... Lets say average game is 15 overseers for a late game to be effective and coutning losses. 750m/750vm in game your going to probably build aaround 10 -20 overlords to replace your lost overlords.. 2000 minerals...24+16+7m = mitigation long game cost ... 4350 minerals 350 gas. 40 overlords built in a game and 7 mutated. Thats it. versus... rogues...56 overlords. 40 mutated. (counting his losses) 5600 minerals + 2000 minerals + 2000 gas. 7000 minerals 2000 gas... // 2650/1650 .... So rogues total cost for this imo.. is 2650 minerals/ 1650 gas... Incredibly cheap... The overlords are faster adn more resilient to fire becuase of their free armor gain and speed, and gain an abiltiy with infnite value, to hamper production or scout, saving an overlord... as a zerg I would say this is a extremeyl cheap use of zergs abiltiies... and its has no reall draw back... since runnig chaninglings in with an army behind cna soak up and allwo your lings ot get in closer, or bannelings give your brood lords an immedaite target.... so they can use their range... most peopel hate the speed of brood lords and reatreating.. but with a few infestors as cover, the snipes typically target the flying beast, and you cna fungal the bio clump and easily get away, as the snipe is interupted... and if htey chase well bplacedlurkers in teh bakc ine, while htisis happening yo uahve a flesh ball fo overseers producing changling lings nad other nonsense shit.. lmao. the cost of your apm is relatively.. low with double clicks or grouping. After that long process of thought... that is my conclusion. Rogues total cost for this strat is .. 2650 minerals/ 1650 gas...
1:21:01 That mule drop play was absolutely disgusting
Still a terran here, I love the mass changeling style but I've been wondering for years why zergs don't use mass overseer to spam contaminate on terran production to shut down their macro
Early game you need the gas for other things, and contaminate takes what 125 energy? So with a normal build you can realistically get a few overseers with enough energy to contaminate by like 7-8min. If you're talking late game Terran already has turrets everywhere so you're sacrificing overseers every time.
Day9 did it as a thing ages ago... It works as a timing push like the other guy described.
They should do it more later game tho, for sure.
Keep harping on the forward bases! Especially when zerg already has nydus network (3 of them in game 2!), just put a work at the back of each of the forward bases, and you can saturate and retreat so easily. Serral does it every time.
as much as i hate the mass changeling + nydus, i think this properly represents how Zerg should be lore-wise. lol
29:42 Don't turrets reveal changelings?
Nope, nothing reveals changelings. If they haven't transformed yet then your units will auto target them but otherwise you have to manually click them.
@@benboyde6277 😦 omg
This feels like a custom built strat to fuck with players that have injuries, especially terrans. Just forces them to click over and over again, stressing their wrists and shoulders. If you did this to Byun, at LAN, in like a best of 9 in every game he’d have to forfeit by game 3.
@@darylbas8216terran can just put move command to rapid fire to kill change lings
Oh shiiit that's a long ass Bo3
Wow,
MULE DROP Block was Fukin Gangster
we all know Micro Jackson can't deal with older dudes.
Just put move command on rapid fire, to kill changelings
such a killer move by rogue. having terran derp around on chanlings. once they start dying you can slip one into the base and pop a nydus.
Its a really cool move. Imo though its also a mistake in the design of the game. Changelings should be detected by detection, and once detected they should behave like enemy units and be auto killed. Its a super inconsistent interaction, and it leads to really stale gameplay where the only hope the terran has is to lock the doors, turtle up and play click sim for 30 mins. Yes it has downsides but its a really one sided interaction and theres literally no counter other than 'constantly click and pay attention' which is anti fun
@@eds7228 terran ranks #1 with abuse mechanics. They earned this. Good job zerg
The best caster. Love the insights
holy shit game 3
Toss is toasted vs the mass overseers strategy. Army trading army and mass Contaminate vs re-maxing will spell the fall of Toss. Rogue just broke the game :)
Rogue understands that If all your attention is on putting out fires (nydus, changlings,etc) you can't win effectively. This is great. I want to see this game get broken so it gets patched correctly.
Toss have extremely horrible vision units. The observer is the worst vision unit
@91010186 obs are good, its just too much tech required to get it up and running. If you want to PVT to feel more straightforward, I suggest you put 3 probes on gas as soon as it warps in.
Cyber core
2nd gas (2 probes in it)
Stargate or robo or twilight
Nexus.
Get gas ASAP. Gl.
For the swarmmm
43:13 - 29 minutes. This is hte point where the game goes null... not entirely sure why, and changing out drones from 60 maybe to 50 to colelct the outlining rsses first and then kill off or convert. Alternative, you spend 1200-3000k on hatcheries where you want your production and last stand... The only unit that is effective against long range is brood lords, and ocmbine with Infestors and lurkers to disrupt snipes with back line helaing queens zerg has a very cost effective means of removing units and buildings and combined with the changlings, its like Rogue turned off and had to shit or headache or something.
Then the spoiler, game becomes in consquencial and should have never been a draw... He should of did another mass push at 32, to either knock off that base or keep the bank of the terran taxed and production... he had plenty of opprtunities of doing structural attrition...
In end game which started pretty much at 30 minutes... minerals left on teh map, but all of it coudl of been mined from rogue easily and transitioned out... Turtle terran typically isonyl effective until tempests and broods and bc's start picing away at yoru shit for free.
The best end game movements why I enver think their can be a draw is if hte bank is big enough you want to maximize yoru damage. If yo uboth have 10 k rss, and bot hmatched armies so lets say 1 to 1 trading... The additional damage comes from production speed, the means ot hit those production marks, liek supply depots or pylon removal, overlord killing is eventualyl a army cap, which then affects the trade ration as there is a larger form of damage discrepancy at hand... Rogue had about 4 more zerg waves with a hold army minerla cap... pushing would of been effective. Also, corruptors can change into brood lords anywhere, the no fly zones can allow you to change broods inbehind the main late game and get structure damage... Destroying a barracks removes teh enemies unti to produce 1 cycle/ or two... Removing a supply depot eventaully limits the volume of economic cycles a production unit can append. Even sitll without broods... he can effectively remove etrrans army over and over... Maybe rogue is fearful of bio ball, but contiual damage to cc's supply depots cna be effective.. He had ungaurded and open ov spot for putting ina nydus...
the most common algorithm proven in the like the 60's to win any game is tit-for-tat strategy wins more in a long ago experiement of machines and programs fighting it out, and the machine that won 90% of hte tiem did tit, for tat, a simple concept. If you lose an over lord kill a depot... sort of relation.
at the 49:53 -- 39 minutes gt.... Byun lost... 5000 minerals and 300 gas to command centers. and 17 turrets at this point (1700) Hard to say the total value, and Rogue also did a many in effective angles andtrading but he can see everything, He strat isn't that expensive, since overseers still count as overlords, so additional 50/50 is what it costs, typically you never rebuild overlords, exactly...
How to a view units..
Banneling can do shock damage to infrastructure and untsi allwoing you to overwhelm your enemy. They are not cost effective, against buildings, but they can remove them quickly and in death they do damage to whomever is near by. No value until utlized, one time use. Not cost effective.
Overseer can do production shock value temporarily allow you to over whelm your enemy by stopping their means of production. Infnite value unti ldead. Cost effective.
Brood lords are flying tanks of zerg, they are effective. TO be fair... Personalyl l ike going broods, so I can go hydras and have more options with lurkersn and placements, since, I woudl rather death with ghosts and vikings then bio ball and tanks when attack, so every unit you force to counter your move, you can make a remaxing choice to easily over whelm teh target.
36 overlords is 288 supply.. which is slightly higher, than needed.. typically having around 8 extra lords allows you to get vision and expend htem as they work like observors, overlord is a multi tiered unit, that only cost sminerals.. so losing 3-4 for outpost vision is liek losing a observer... THis allows you to not be supply blocked.. also if you ever get supply block as zerg, you need to build and exceed an exactly ammoutn so you can rebuild your army as fast as possible and you have no idea if your goign ot keep losing overlords at this point. if your down 16 supply.. take the tiem into account and the situation so building 8 in response makes sense, if you lose two more, you only gain a net of from the original loss of 32 supply... Late game zerg.. having around 264-288 supply in over lords is perfectly fine... You should have them anyway, its like most players even terran build extra, ccs and depots sometimes.. even protoss extra pylons. I think you are over thinking the investment of overlords... lets say average game is 40 overlords... he lost 16 in total. 128 supply. if he had exaclkt enoug hfor 200 supply, that hit is huge, it would cause a deficit to your larva production, where as if you have 288 its not too big... and too larva costly, overlords are a future produciton unit that is very important. 25 overlords is exactly 200. (not counting hatcheries (equal about 1 overlord in the end game) If you had 25 overlords and lost 16... that is game over... where as if you had 36 over lords nad lost 16 your very much in it still.
72 cappa, verse 160 cappa... is massive... all becuase you ahve like 36 overlords.. keep in mind tehy are scouting units, and yoru not trackign the terrans... nevermind.. protoss scouting untis that owuld die or be used, etc.. Overlords are tanky, and overseers gain 1 amor and become a higher class unit... To convert your overlords to over seers.. 40 of them thats about .. 2000 minerals 2000 gas... hardly costly.. and you then get abiltiy to use scouting increased armor verse specific units, making maries harder to kill them, and you don't need overlord speed as they get a massive free speed boost, and if you do get hte upgrade they are even faster. is it expensive if its something you ahve to build... anyways... like pylons or supply depots that are a static unit. Overlords are LORDs for a reason.. Lord of hte skies, the great flesh kingdom... Lets think about this even more... Forced to get... atleast 24 overlords in a game, to have 200 supply, thats with counting hatcheries. thats if you never lose any overlord, never need an overseer, adn never use them to scout, keep them safe... thats 2400 mineral investment... That is not ideal since peopel will kill them if they can, etc. Of course cloaked and burrowed enemies are a thing, all the time... so already your going to have to put some in the front line. ROgue lost 16 overlords.. 8 normies and 8 overseers, which losing onyl 8 overseeirs is amazing since they are at hte front lien but are faster and amor is greater. Overlords with +3 armor is super... Lets say average game is 15 overseers for a late game to be effective and coutning losses. 750m/750vm in game your going to probably build aaround 10 -20 overlords to replace your lost overlords.. 2000 minerals...24+16+7m = mitigation long game cost ... 4350 minerals 350 gas. 40 overlords built in a game and 7 mutated. Thats it.
versus... rogues...56 overlords. 40 mutated. (counting his losses) 5600 minerals + 2000 minerals + 2000 gas. 7000 minerals 2000 gas... // 2650/1650 ....
So rogues total cost for this imo.. is 2650 minerals/ 1650 gas... Incredibly cheap... The overlords are faster adn more resilient to fire becuase of their free armor gain and speed, and gain an abiltiy with infnite value, to hamper production or scout, saving an overlord... as a zerg I would say this is a extremeyl cheap use of zergs abiltiies... and its has no reall draw back... since runnig chaninglings in with an army behind cna soak up and allwo your lings ot get in closer, or bannelings give your brood lords an immedaite target.... so they can use their range... most peopel hate the speed of brood lords and reatreating.. but with a few infestors as cover, the snipes typically target the flying beast, and you cna fungal the bio clump and easily get away, as the snipe is interupted... and if htey chase well bplacedlurkers in teh bakc ine, while htisis happening yo uahve a flesh ball fo overseers producing changling lings nad other nonsense shit.. lmao. the cost of your apm is relatively.. low with double clicks or grouping.
After that long process of thought... that is my conclusion.
Rogues total cost for this strat is .. 2650 minerals/ 1650 gas...
I guess all the Changeling spam burned out Rogue more than Byun...
I'm not reading all that 😂
Absolute Shyte commentator
Ibeen out... I didn+t fool my gf that i was pretty sober.. and I faling asleep to pig svoice..this is insuraces.
changlings not being autokilled next to detection is a massive oversight and there is no excuse to it. I hope it gets patched soon
Not fun to watch. Would avoid Rouge games. BS strategy
SPOLER ALERT
Changelings are all fun and stuff until you ask for a draw