Ellen, I have enjoyed all your teaching from the past years but these videos that you are producing in 2022 are much more rich and full. I listen to them several times and get good insights each time. I am sure to do the same with today's video. These are true master class lessons. I would like to request a long lesson on plotting the story structure of a series and how the plot points are laid out from book to book. How does something that might appear in book three get prepared for in book one, etc.
@@techniques9004 I agree. Worth paying for. I think more of Ellen's 100,000 subscribers should pony up for her great work. Flight of fancy here - Imagine if lots of them put in just a few bucks! She could go on a great vacation.
This was such a huge game changer for my story! I always felt like something wasn’t quite right with my current outline, but after watching this video I knew exactly how to fix the issue! Thank you so much!!
I have watched this series more times than I can count. I thought I had pulled everything I needed from it but yet again you have given me new insight into the events and characters of my current WIP. Thanks again Ellen! This series should be a masterclass.
I follow a lot of "how to write" channels, and have gone through huge amounts of other content in my journey to learn how to do all this ... and your content has been consistently some of the most helpful and practical and valuable. I've never created a patreon account before, but I think I'm going to. I really feel like your work has been a huge help and I feel as if I owe you a debt of gratitude ... since I can't do that in person, the least I can do is try and support you in your efforts. I'm at work while I watch this video (don't tell my boss lol), but I'm going to set that up when I get home. Thank you again for sharing your insights and perspectives.
This was super clear and helpful, and I finally get why my character's "debate" never seemed that meaningful; I thought this was the one plot point I really understood, but it turns out I didn't, lol. But I do now! And I second Pride & Prejudice for a breakdown!
I intuitively pantsed my first two novels and have slowly moved towards 'intuitive plotting', finding it saves me having to edit and fix so many problems that come up in my writing. I'm binging all your videos before I get to plotting my third novel, and it's all so helpful! Thank you!
Nice video. Like you said, without this debate the reader doesn't feel like the decision is meaningful to the character. I think that's key: Making the impact on the character clear to the reader.
That thing you said about forcing plot points into certain structural formats really helped me conceptualize my plot points much more clearly. Its like i had a blindfold on and didn’t know it.
I really appreciate these advanced writing discussions and would love to see more. I’m established as a writer, but diving into longer fiction I can find myself in murky waters in terms of structure-which can really stall me. But the trendy, showboats “save the cat’ type adaptations of the hero’s journey, and basic discussions about dialogue, narrative info dumps, character arcs, etc some of us are beyond that but need this higher level help. The videos also provide me with a ‘companion’ in the writing process, which is a psychological benefit for me, specifically, as my writing career usually involved a team effort and I’ve stalled a lot just from writing alone-ie being kept on track, which I find these videos a huge contribution. Also, great use of examples! The advise is genuine, not exploitive and assumes an intelligence on the writer’s part-love the absence of pandering. So more advanced discussions: the use of subtext, unreliable narrators, etc in addition to these excellent (micro?) structures. When you talk about fails, it would be nice if you provide examples to these as well… but maybe that’s not politic. Thanks Ellen.
Wow, that hunger games example really showed I misunderstood the concept before this video! Thanks a lot. I already feel better about where a few of my longer stories are going.
Great breakdown! I think it's also important to realize that the debate is never a factual question (paranormal vs. ordinary), but is instead always a values question
The Hunger Games is my all time favorite book because it is so well written. You can break down every scene and see exactly what she was trying to accomplish with it and it’s so affective. They also did a great job putting it into movie format- especially how they put pieces of the second book in to show how other districts reacted to Rue’s death. Also, the scene with the game master and the berries was so simple but a great addition. They had some amazing screenwriters.
This was so helpful! I tend to follow more heroine’s journeys where there is more acceptance of the choice, but i see how a debate section could show how the heroine makes the choice despite fear or feelings of inadequacy (e.g. Romancing the Stone). I’d like to see persuasion or Emma or pride & prejudice (books not films) assessed.
You are absolutely the best teacher I have ever encountered. Thank you for helping me understand these methodologies and reinvigorate my excitement for writing and refining my writing process ❤
This is SO good. Your channel was always good, but it's going from strength to strength with your new content. Thank you, on behalf of myself and my writing.
Ahh so exciting to wake up and see a new upload from you! I really connect with the way you describe the debate stage, especially your examples of stories where the protagonist has to choose between external change and confronting who they are on the inside, and how a story can bloom from either choice. (Juno was a particularly helpful example here!) Thanks so much!
Wow, thanks Ellen! My disruption just pushed my main character out of the status quo, dramatic, but no real decision was made. But that example you gave of Deadpool showed that I could make it MUCH better by presenting my character with two hard choices.
While watching this video I was thinking, "Do I actually have a proper debate?" in my current WIP. The disruption and the first plot points have been murky for me to pin down, just because a lot happens and I wasn't quite sure what was what. Then you got to the end, and the whole "Hunger Games" example. Everything clicked at that point. I realized what my disruption is, what the debate is (yes, two bad choices) and what the first plot point is. It all seems obvious now, but another scene a little later had me doubting. Now I know, thanks to your help. Thank you for your incredible insights and videos. You are a WONDERFUL resource, and we are so glad you're here for us. ❤
Ellen, you're a lifesaver. I just finished editing my new novel and the debate section was a slog because I forced it to go nowhere for the sake of structure. Your Katniss example at the end helped me to rethink my approach to the debate. Can't wait to get revising--thanks!
I already watched this and took copious notes, but I'm actually *writing* the debate today so I'm getting me a refresher. Thanks, Ellen! You make the best--and most complete--writing videos, hands down ❤
This is a big step to the solution of my „in-between-problem“. I literally stopped the video and jumped to my feet grabbing a pen and putting this down in my Writer‘s Little Helper Book (full of helping hints, mostly but not only by Ellen). As usual, thank you very much!
These are absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much! I cannot wait to hear the next one. I'm really looking forward to when you have time to work on the act two videos!
Ellen, you are Informatinaly pulling the tab and pouring out this wonderfully brewed story structure into the frosty condensation dripping container of thoughts on my writing..but with this make sure to pour it all over the keyboard ...Thanks, Ellen.
Sometimes I wonder if methodological writers and editors try too hard to fit stories (which are amazingly complex) into simplified structures. What she says about hunger games is a great example of this, to me. Really, Catniss volunteering for the hunger games isn’t the 1st plot point??? It smacks to me of overfitted data. Ellen, I love your content, and I would love to hear you respond to this. What is story structure to you? Do you see it as truth? Or do you acknowledge that it is, by necessity, a flawed model of something very complex? Regardless, watching your videos is helping me edit my 1st draft. You’ve helped me think in new ways. Thank you! Cheers!
Golden! The examples put much deeper meaning to instructions previously learned but obviously not fully appreciated. I learned a few things. Thank you.
This was such a helpful video, especially the Hunger Games analysis! Like I definitely misunderstand what parts of a novel or film are what plot points etc. Thank you!
Thanks Ellen! I listened to your entire video on the treadmill. I’ve never heard the “debate” explained quite like this. Excellent. I plan to listen 🎧 again with my notebook by my side.
The timing of this video is great! I was having problems with the debate section of two WIPs and didn't even know what was wrong, only that they felt too quick. Turns out I was making the last mistake you mentioned and the true "decision" moments actually happened much later, I just wasn't able to see it... I had no idea this was a thing, haha. Thank you so much!
Really good explanation! Since I'm working with dual protagonists, one which involves an evolution into another side of themselves, their acceptance comes right in the place of the first quarter it needs to be(whether they accept the status quo or not) while the other faces a negative character arc(so their status quo is already absent, and has been for a long time, so they attempt regularly to get it, even force it back). These two clash for a sort of control which drives the plot as a lot of conflict is setup because of the other protagonist (as they share the same body).
Very helpful thx! On entangling ongoing issues, I happened to have something of an "epiphany" last night just as I was going to bed. I was worried about my story becoming too one dimensional and too focused on just the main character. I knew I'd have to think up some side plots and such, to spice things up. But then, while I was working on the summary of some of the events and characters my main meets along the way, I realised how a particular character's journey could conflict with my main. Because they have their own issues they need to deal with and if I keep them together, that'll create an ongoing extra issue for my main to deal with that doesn't have a simple solution. It just sort of clicked how that could be true for a few others as well. In hindsight that feels obvious and silly, because I knew these things. But there's clearly a difference between knowing them and having them click. Quite happy, though my main is in for a bad time 😂 Your explanation on the misunderstandings with regard to the first plot point and it not necessarily having to be so obvious was also very insightful. It's been one of the reasons why I've previously stayed away from plot structures. I would get to the description of something like that and go: That sounds dumb, that would mean this thing would happen very early in my story, I don't want that to happen so soon. So I trusted my own thing and now it turns out I was doing that bit "right", I was just misinterpreting because there are so many poor explanations out there.
Hello Ellen, I love your videos! The level of depth and nuance is incredibly helpful! Would you consider adding a visual of bullet points, maybe in an end-of-video summary? It'd be really helpful for taking notes and being able to remember the details. I don't know if other people feel this way, but as a visual learner, this would really help.
Thank you for your amazing explanations as always! I'm struggling with this plot point at the moment, I know what I want to happen in the story, but the debate ended up having nothing to do with my character's inner motivation and misbelief, so there's no conflict like in the way you said. It's difficult, but thank you for clearing up my mind!
Back in absolutely excellent form Ellen! I've already written my debate section, but you make some key points here that makes me realize that the decision of my protag to enter the upside-down world of Act II is a bit too easily won. Appreciate you
Your videos are so clear and insightful, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us. I would love to hear you deconstruct Pride & Prejudice.
I have been working on a plot for a while now (preparing for November) and there are a lot of videos that explain things, but not in nearly this much depth or detail! I discovered your videos a few days ago, and I feel like they have affected me more than the others that are very general. Thank you for your content!
I love watching your videos because of all information and wisdom, I dislike it because I realise I need to seriously edit my old manuscripts 😂 luckily in my newer ones I seem to have done these things instinctively. glad I now know this for future reference. thank you for sharing
In screenwriter Jeff Kitchen’s book “How to Write a Great Movie” he calls this ‘The Dilemma’. It’s almost exactly as you described it. Fantastic video!
I see a lot of writing advice/writing guide/writing tip videos on YT but I feel like yours are in a different class altogether. I don't think I've ever see plot broken down the way you do but I love the way you do it and it's been very thought provoking and helpful. And as for novels that would be fun to talk about...maybe a classic novel and a contemporary one? Something to compare and contrast a bit but also to show that even novels written (comparatively) a long time ago still follow the same structures as ones now. I don't have any specific examples but I just thought I'd throw that theme out there.
Ellen, wow, this series is insanely thought provoking. Your explanations and examples are so clarifying. This is the kind of information I was looking for for a long time. Thank you so much! As for suggestions for novels to break down: I'd like to see you break down a story that's heavily character driven or a coming of age. I notice that I find it a lot harder to identify the structure and story beats in novels (of movies) where there are very few external events. For instance 'Where the crawdads sing' by Delia Owens, 'Eleanor & Park' by Rainbow Rowell or 'Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of the Universe' by Benjamin Alire Sáenz. I think that diving into character driven novels and/or coming of age would be very helpful. Keep up the work, I'm looking forward to all of your other (upcoming) videos :)
2:18 | Movies talked about 2:24 | How long is the debate? 2:43 | Size of Status Quo & Debate 3:39 | What happens in the debate? -- 4:38 | Example: Toy Story -- 5:13 | Impossible Status Quo. Paths: Externally and Internally preferable -- 5:44 | Example: Juno
This is so great! I’d love it if you could break down two types of books for us when you do your deep dive: both an obvious example and a subtle example. That would help me so much!
Always love watching and rewatching your videos! Especially the ones on what kind of writer you are. This one really cleared up some things for me. I would see two or three catalyst-type things in a story and wonder which was the actual catalyst and what the others were and this cleared that up. I would love to see broken down Jane Eyre broken down since it has a lot of different aspects and a very long set up. I would also really like to see you break down book series and how a story structure is spread out throughout a series while each book has its own structure. Would love to see Six of Crows and Crooked Kingdom broken down, along with The Hunger Games series. I’m writing a series right now and really struggling. Thank you so much!
2 novels I would like to see you break down the structure of are "Red Queen" by Victoria Aveyard and/or "Three Dark Crowns" by Kendare Blake. And BTW I loved this video and I'm looking forward to the continuation of this series! :)
Such a wonderful series - thank you so much as always Ellen! For books to deconstruct - would love you to look at The God of Small Things. In particular, I think it’s such an interesting one in terms of multiple timelines and character povs
This got me thinking about the structure in my novel. Could multiple characters have different relationship to "The debate"? For example: my mc's version of the debate is: How do I get my kid sister to accept I need to leave her behind to help her? One supporting lead debate is "How do I accept this secret space from the wrong people knowing about it?" Kid sister's debate would be "How do I keep from being left in a place I don't know." etc. Maybe another to ask this is: Can each character/ story arch have a debate of it's own?
Fellowship (the film) would be a great story to analyze like this. It has a great example of a midpoint (Frodo saying "I will do it") that sort of flies under the radar most of the time. It's also great for us fantasy nerds to see some more rigorous paradigms actually applied!
Fantastically helpful as always. Can I ask a question on your Hunger Games examples. If the Katniss volunteering isn't the first plot point, does this decision have any structural significance (or name) or is it just part of the disruption?
Great video and great series so far! Would you please consider deconstructing The Nightingale by Kristen Hannah? I'd love to hear your analysis of how the author handled the story's structure with the POV of each sister.
I almost feel like the end of the debate is my flash forward prologue. Edit:maybe it’s just one status quo becoming another? Editedit: your example w Hunger Games helped me fix my problem, I think. My debate wasn’t what I thought it was. Thanks, Ellen
Awesome vid! The Hunger Games point was like a revelation for me lol. When I write, I always have trouble putting my scenes in the correct order. The middle always feels messy. Do you have any quick tips? :)
I've heard on other writing videos that it is suggested to jump straight into the meat of the Story. Is it absolutely imperative that you write a status quo? Or can you drop the reader in to the middle of the action?
As Ellen explains, the status quo can be long or really short and yes even skipped, depending on the type of story and genre. You can drop a character straight into the action and even have that action be an action scene. But your world will need to be easily understood, or at least enough to grasp the scene, for it to work. What they usually mean by that advice though is exactly what Ellen explains in this video in different words. You should start at a moment in time that is relevant. Even if their mundane is alien and not mundane to the reader, it still shouldn't just start at any random day. As with the hunger games not starting on a random hunting day, but on the day where candidates get chosen from the district. That in and of itself is not a unique event, but it's still nerve-wracking and this one obviously hits different.
Is the act 1 climax/first plot point the same as "break into 2"? Looking at Save the Cat and there is no first plot point. It goes straight from Debate to Break into 2. I'm trying to distill my novel's plot points and the terminology is making me wonder if I'm missing something here.
Thank you for this content.. wow. I will put in a vote for you to break down The Name of The Wind. Yes, it's a longer debut novel than most- but that's exactly why. Why exactly did it succeed where so many others fail?
Ooooo..... This is a great help thank you so much for sharing your craft! I would love to see "THE HOST" by Stephenie Meyer broken down and analyzed. (The book is sooo much better than the movie.)
I have always wondered what the debate is in Pride and Prejudice. Is it when Elizabeth decides to go to Jane when she is ill at Netherfield? Internally, Elizabeth would prefer to avoid seeing Darcy etc again, but that doesn't sit right with her loyalty to her sister. Externally, Mrs Bennet makes it known that she wants Jane to remain at Netherfield to win Bingley, which means Elizabeth will have to defy her mother if she wants to see Jane. Then Elizabeth decides to go with her internal need to be loyal to her sister above her internal need to avoid Darcy, even though she knows her external world will become more difficult when her mother openly disapproves?
I really struggle trying to "find" the debate of my romance centered novel. In my story, I have a job problem happen to the protagonist that makes her meet the love interest, but this problem doesn't really create a debate on whether she should meet this guy again. It rather changes her current life. Should I make the love interest play a part on the character's decision? or should this change in her life give her the possibility to explore her relationship with the love interest?
Question for clarification: if Katniss volunteering for the Games is not the 1st plot point, what is the 1st plot point? Is the volunteering the disruption?
I really love your video Ellen! You are really up to knowledge and you give a lot of NEW perspective on writing, I have discovered a lot of new topics and books following your channel! I never encountered the term “first quarter debate”, though. And, I know: labels are not important, skill is. But I’m a writer and teacher and a curious being: is the “first quarter debate” a industry related term? Or there is some source that inspired you? Thanks A LOT for what you do! All videos about types of writer and this series on arch is PURE VALUE. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you for watching! This is a great question. "The debate" is a screenwriting term. I would say it's pretty broadly known in screenwriting circles. Screenwriters use three-act structure, so the "first quarter" wouldn't be a term used at all in that context. I prefer four-quarter structure because I think it's easier to conceptualize, however it's important to note that it is the same structure as three-act structure, just with an extra dividing line (the second act is 50-60% of three-act structure, and four-act structure conceptualizes another split that divides the second act into two parts/quarters that are each about 25-30%). With novel structure, you usually only see the Hero's Journey version of the debate, which is "the refusal of the call." I just don't like that term as much personally because I think it's hard to see what "the call" is in some stories. "The call" is obvious enough in Deadpool, but less so in Toy Story. I hope this helps and makes sense!
Great video.👍I had a question. How do you answer questions in a novel ? What ways do you use to get to the answers ? While writing a story, we come across questions(regarding character, conflict, etc.) which needs to be answered to move ahead. I wanted to know what techniques do you use when you are stuck in a story (by these questions) ? Thank you.😃
If I understand what you're asking, you're talking about needing to brainstorm a solution to something you don't know as you write. I recommend writing down what you need to figure out (For example, "I need to know what powers this character has.") and then write down what you know about the solution (For example, "He has to be able to escape from chains. He can't be so strong he can escape from the cage at the end of the book. I want him to do something with animals."). At least for me, this helps me to narrow in on some good options. Hope that helps!
Book deconstruction suggestion: I'd love to see deconstruction of Pride and Prejudice! I'm also curious about how to deconstruct a book like one from A Song of Ice and Fire series by G.R.R. Martin because it has so many characters and PoVs and different subplots, but maybe that would be complicated and I should look elsewhere. :)
These videos are so helpful! Thanks a lot! In the first video you mention that the disruption isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least at first. I am wondering what impact a "positive" disruption has on the debate structure. In order to put the character in the position of having 2 bad choices, I need to reveal the negative consequences of the "positive" disruption first. Would the debate section work if the choices and stakes are not clear until the very end of the section? What are the common mistakes authors make in this set up?
I wonder about your thoughts on a protagonist being happy to accept the call to action, instead of refusing. I know this example is a video game, so probably not something people on this channel are too familiar with but: Tales of Symphonia (If anyone's worried about spoilers, stop reading here please lol) The call to action is the Oracle, when the Chosen One is finally ready to go on her foretold Journey of Regeneration (aka save the world). She and the rest of the world have known about this since before she was born, so the protagonist, Lloyd, is also not shocked when the call to action occurs. In fact, he and everyone else were waiting for it and knew when it would happen. And because the Chosen One, Collette, is his childhood friend, he's quite eager to go on the journey with her as well. He's never left his little village before, and he thinks of the journey as a grand adventure and fancies the idea of becoming a hero that saves the world. However, multiple of the adults, and Colette herself, conspire to keep him from going with her. So he's essentially left behind. This is because Colette knows that she's going to have to die to save the world, and she doesn't want him to see that. He ends up going after her anyway, and even though the journey starts off pretty adventurous and exciting, it's slowly taking a dark turn. And Lloyd is gradually realizing that this journey and the world in general are not like he thought they would be. And of course, when the time comes for Colette to die and he finally finds out about it (basically right before it happens), he directly interferes and stops her from dying (the midpoint) thus sparking the second part of the story. I think maybe the lack of refusal worked okay in the end because it was a decision of naivete. And eventually, the seriousness of that choice gets reflected later. He was so eager to go on the journey at the start, but as it goes on, the fun wears off and the harsh reality sets in and he has to face serious emotional trauma as a result. So I think it still works, but that's just my thoughts.
Sounds like Colette is a better protag, and the midpoint might be a better first plot point. Not 100% sure since I never heard of the game before, thus my judgement might be lacking.
@@Peachu_n_Goma_Home Nah, she doesn't really work as a protagonist because the rest of the story is Lloyd's attempt to find a way to save the world without using the Chosen One method. (And also uncover the massive conspiracy surrounding the Chosen One journey) Colette takes a major back seat as soon as she's saved from dying (partly because she's in a catatonic state for a period of time afterwards. The interrupted Chosen One sacrifice didn't fully kill her, but it did do a number on her.) But even if she was the protagonist, she also accepted her role as a human sacrifice pretty much from her childhood. She never rejected the call to action either, as far as I'm aware. And instead, from a young age, she adopted that assigned role as part of her identity, seeing her purpose in life as making others safe and happy. She always believed she would die young and not get a life, and she's long made peace with it way before the story began. But this belief is thrown out after she's rescued, and her friends encourage her to finally start living for herself.
Ellen, I am starting to understand the story structure much better with your two lessons on status quo and debate. I've listened to both multiple times. These topics seem to be left out of most of the "how to write" books and videos that I study. Please keep up the fantastic work. I keep checking for new material every few days. I am indeed impatient. I do have a question that has come up for me triggered by your work. Clearly we have the Protagonist and the antagonist (ic forces) but what about the function of other characters and situations. Certainly there must be some "science" about what elements are necessary to illuminate or propel the plot. Is that something you can address? We know archetypes such as the mentor, the lover, the buddy, but are they necessary in some form even if they are part of the character of one of the 'tagonists?
Yes. In that case the structure would be: en media res (or flashback), status quo, disruption (inciting incident/catalyst), debate, first plot point. Hope that helps!
This is a super helpful video Ellen! I really liked the contrast between the overt debate and the implied debate - it helped me to conceptualise what the tension of this part of the story is actually doing. I'm also curious - is the debate there as a framework for exploring the stakes, or maybe the internal world of the protagonist, so that we're with them and understand them when they start making choices afterward?
Hi Ellen, love your videos. Would like to get your take on the first book of The Expanse series - Leviathan Wakes (James S A Corey). I am writing a sci-fi novel and would love to learn more about writing this genre. Thank you!!
I agree with the previous comment, the debate could be about the protagonist’s attitude towards the order. Maybe he wants to execute his order to make his family proud and become a national hero even though internally he’s afraid of doing it. Conversely, maybe the order is something amoral and he’s afraid of being perceived as a “monster” if he executes it
32:08 Hey, are you still planning to go ahead with this? It would be nice to see your structural break down of some classics. "The Hobbit" and "Notes from Underground" are my two suggestions :)
Could you please dissect Call Me by Your Name, the book? It's non-standard in structure (the author avoided inserting the element of conflict) and would be very useful in trying to understand the typical story structure, by contrast
Ellen, I have enjoyed all your teaching from the past years but these videos that you are producing in 2022 are much more rich and full. I listen to them several times and get good insights each time. I am sure to do the same with today's video. These are true master class lessons. I would like to request a long lesson on plotting the story structure of a series and how the plot points are laid out from book to book. How does something that might appear in book three get prepared for in book one, etc.
Thank you, John! That is definitely something I'm interested in doing!
I agree ... I've watched most of the content here, but the last few have been particularly good and helpful!
@@techniques9004 I agree. Worth paying for. I think more of Ellen's 100,000 subscribers should pony up for her great work. Flight of fancy here - Imagine if lots of them put in just a few bucks! She could go on a great vacation.
This was such a huge game changer for my story! I always felt like something wasn’t quite right with my current outline, but after watching this video I knew exactly how to fix the issue! Thank you so much!!
I have watched this series more times than I can count. I thought I had pulled everything I needed from it but yet again you have given me new insight into the events and characters of my current WIP. Thanks again Ellen! This series should be a masterclass.
I follow a lot of "how to write" channels, and have gone through huge amounts of other content in my journey to learn how to do all this ... and your content has been consistently some of the most helpful and practical and valuable. I've never created a patreon account before, but I think I'm going to. I really feel like your work has been a huge help and I feel as if I owe you a debt of gratitude ... since I can't do that in person, the least I can do is try and support you in your efforts.
I'm at work while I watch this video (don't tell my boss lol), but I'm going to set that up when I get home.
Thank you again for sharing your insights and perspectives.
Thank you so much! That's very kind of you. I'm so glad you find my videos helpful.
So helpful...been binging your videos on a 3 hour drive.
This was super clear and helpful, and I finally get why my character's "debate" never seemed that meaningful; I thought this was the one plot point I really understood, but it turns out I didn't, lol. But I do now!
And I second Pride & Prejudice for a breakdown!
I intuitively pantsed my first two novels and have slowly moved towards 'intuitive plotting', finding it saves me having to edit and fix so many problems that come up in my writing. I'm binging all your videos before I get to plotting my third novel, and it's all so helpful! Thank you!
Nice video. Like you said, without this debate the reader doesn't feel like the decision is meaningful to the character. I think that's key: Making the impact on the character clear to the reader.
That thing you said about forcing plot points into certain structural formats really helped me conceptualize my plot points much more clearly. Its like i had a blindfold on and didn’t know it.
I really appreciate these advanced writing discussions and would love to see more. I’m established as a writer, but diving into longer fiction I can find myself in murky waters in terms of structure-which can really stall me. But the trendy, showboats “save the cat’ type adaptations of the hero’s journey, and basic discussions about dialogue, narrative info dumps, character arcs, etc some of us are beyond that but need this higher level help. The videos also provide me with a ‘companion’ in the writing process, which is a psychological benefit for me, specifically, as my writing career usually involved a team effort and I’ve stalled a lot just from writing alone-ie being kept on track, which I find these videos a huge contribution. Also, great use of examples! The advise is genuine, not exploitive and assumes an intelligence on the writer’s part-love the absence of pandering.
So more advanced discussions: the use of subtext, unreliable narrators, etc in addition to these excellent (micro?) structures. When you talk about fails, it would be nice if you provide examples to these as well… but maybe that’s not politic. Thanks Ellen.
I can’t wait to see the rest of this series! You’re so right that the in between time between plot points can be confusing, so this is super helpful
Wow, that hunger games example really showed I misunderstood the concept before this video! Thanks a lot. I already feel better about where a few of my longer stories are going.
Great breakdown! I think it's also important to realize that the debate is never a factual question (paranormal vs. ordinary), but is instead always a values question
The Hunger Games is my all time favorite book because it is so well written. You can break down every scene and see exactly what she was trying to accomplish with it and it’s so affective. They also did a great job putting it into movie format- especially how they put pieces of the second book in to show how other districts reacted to Rue’s death. Also, the scene with the game master and the berries was so simple but a great addition. They had some amazing screenwriters.
This was so helpful! I tend to follow more heroine’s journeys where there is more acceptance of the choice, but i see how a debate section could show how the heroine makes the choice despite fear or feelings of inadequacy (e.g. Romancing the Stone).
I’d like to see persuasion or Emma or pride & prejudice (books not films) assessed.
You are absolutely the best teacher I have ever encountered. Thank you for helping me understand these methodologies and reinvigorate my excitement for writing and refining my writing process ❤
This is SO good. Your channel was always good, but it's going from strength to strength with your new content. Thank you, on behalf of myself and my writing.
Thank you! I'm so glad you like the new videos!
Ahh so exciting to wake up and see a new upload from you! I really connect with the way you describe the debate stage, especially your examples of stories where the protagonist has to choose between external change and confronting who they are on the inside, and how a story can bloom from either choice. (Juno was a particularly helpful example here!) Thanks so much!
I'm so glad it helped!
Ella enchanted would be fun to deconstruct. I loved it as a kid, and it holds up to rereading.
You're an absolute treasure Ellen. I can't thank you enough for your insights.
Excellent information and explanations. So clarifying about the debate. Thank you.
Jeez, this story quarter series is soooo good
Wow, thanks Ellen!
My disruption just pushed my main character out of the status quo, dramatic, but no real decision was made.
But that example you gave of Deadpool showed that I could make it MUCH better by presenting my character with two hard choices.
Same for me. I have some editing to do tomorrow, good luck
While watching this video I was thinking, "Do I actually have a proper debate?" in my current WIP. The disruption and the first plot points have been murky for me to pin down, just because a lot happens and I wasn't quite sure what was what. Then you got to the end, and the whole "Hunger Games" example. Everything clicked at that point. I realized what my disruption is, what the debate is (yes, two bad choices) and what the first plot point is. It all seems obvious now, but another scene a little later had me doubting. Now I know, thanks to your help. Thank you for your incredible insights and videos. You are a WONDERFUL resource, and we are so glad you're here for us. ❤
Ellen, you're a lifesaver. I just finished editing my new novel and the debate section was a slog because I forced it to go nowhere for the sake of structure. Your Katniss example at the end helped me to rethink my approach to the debate. Can't wait to get revising--thanks!
I already watched this and took copious notes, but I'm actually *writing* the debate today so I'm getting me a refresher. Thanks, Ellen! You make the best--and most complete--writing videos, hands down ❤
Extremely helpful. You are very clear and precise in your explanations. Really understanding storytelling because of you
This is a big step to the solution of my „in-between-problem“. I literally stopped the video and jumped to my feet grabbing a pen and putting this down in my Writer‘s Little Helper Book (full of helping hints, mostly but not only by Ellen). As usual, thank you very much!
These are absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much! I cannot wait to hear the next one. I'm really looking forward to when you have time to work on the act two videos!
Ellen, you are Informatinaly pulling the tab and pouring out this wonderfully brewed story structure into the frosty condensation dripping container of thoughts on my writing..but with this make sure to pour it all over the keyboard ...Thanks, Ellen.
Sometimes I wonder if methodological writers and editors try too hard to fit stories (which are amazingly complex) into simplified structures. What she says about hunger games is a great example of this, to me. Really, Catniss volunteering for the hunger games isn’t the 1st plot point??? It smacks to me of overfitted data. Ellen, I love your content, and I would love to hear you respond to this. What is story structure to you? Do you see it as truth? Or do you acknowledge that it is, by necessity, a flawed model of something very complex?
Regardless, watching your videos is helping me edit my 1st draft. You’ve helped me think in new ways. Thank you!
Cheers!
Thanks for these videos about the structure. Please, keep the good work.
All love from Egypt.
Golden!
The examples put much deeper meaning to instructions previously learned but obviously not fully appreciated. I learned a few things. Thank you.
This was such a helpful video, especially the Hunger Games analysis! Like I definitely misunderstand what parts of a novel or film are what plot points etc. Thank you!
Thanks Ellen! I listened to your entire video on the treadmill. I’ve never heard the “debate” explained quite like this. Excellent. I plan to listen 🎧 again with my notebook by my side.
This series is the reason I check youtube everyday! So clear and helpful. Thank you and I am eagerly waiting for more of this videos. Cheers!
The timing of this video is great! I was having problems with the debate section of two WIPs and didn't even know what was wrong, only that they felt too quick. Turns out I was making the last mistake you mentioned and the true "decision" moments actually happened much later, I just wasn't able to see it... I had no idea this was a thing, haha. Thank you so much!
Thank you so much for your videos. You are a good teacher, and the concret examples are really helpful. I'm so glad you came back to youtube.
This helped me figure out the problem with the beginning of my story! Thank you for explaining it so well.
Really good explanation! Since I'm working with dual protagonists, one which involves an evolution into another side of themselves, their acceptance comes right in the place of the first quarter it needs to be(whether they accept the status quo or not) while the other faces a negative character arc(so their status quo is already absent, and has been for a long time, so they attempt regularly to get it, even force it back). These two clash for a sort of control which drives the plot as a lot of conflict is setup because of the other protagonist (as they share the same body).
As always, I appreciate the analysis you give here. Thank you for sharing it with us!
Very helpful thx!
On entangling ongoing issues, I happened to have something of an "epiphany" last night just as I was going to bed. I was worried about my story becoming too one dimensional and too focused on just the main character. I knew I'd have to think up some side plots and such, to spice things up.
But then, while I was working on the summary of some of the events and characters my main meets along the way, I realised how a particular character's journey could conflict with my main.
Because they have their own issues they need to deal with and if I keep them together, that'll create an ongoing extra issue for my main to deal with that doesn't have a simple solution.
It just sort of clicked how that could be true for a few others as well. In hindsight that feels obvious and silly, because I knew these things. But there's clearly a difference between knowing them and having them click.
Quite happy, though my main is in for a bad time 😂
Your explanation on the misunderstandings with regard to the first plot point and it not necessarily having to be so obvious was also very insightful.
It's been one of the reasons why I've previously stayed away from plot structures. I would get to the description of something like that and go: That sounds dumb, that would mean this thing would happen very early in my story, I don't want that to happen so soon.
So I trusted my own thing and now it turns out I was doing that bit "right", I was just misinterpreting because there are so many poor explanations out there.
Loving every second of this. Your videos are making my work (and my life) better
That's great to hear! Thanks for watching!
Hello Ellen, I love your videos! The level of depth and nuance is incredibly helpful!
Would you consider adding a visual of bullet points, maybe in an end-of-video summary? It'd be really helpful for taking notes and being able to remember the details. I don't know if other people feel this way, but as a visual learner, this would really help.
Thank you for your amazing explanations as always! I'm struggling with this plot point at the moment, I know what I want to happen in the story, but the debate ended up having nothing to do with my character's inner motivation and misbelief, so there's no conflict like in the way you said. It's difficult, but thank you for clearing up my mind!
Thank you so much Ellen, it’s so helpful!
Back in absolutely excellent form Ellen! I've already written my debate section, but you make some key points here that makes me realize that the decision of my protag to enter the upside-down world of Act II is a bit too easily won. Appreciate you
Extremely helpful. Just what I needed. Thank you.
Your videos are so clear and insightful, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us.
I would love to hear you deconstruct Pride & Prejudice.
I have been working on a plot for a while now (preparing for November) and there are a lot of videos that explain things, but not in nearly this much depth or detail!
I discovered your videos a few days ago, and I feel like they have affected me more than the others that are very general. Thank you for your content!
I love watching your videos because of all information and wisdom, I dislike it because I realise I need to seriously edit my old manuscripts 😂 luckily in my newer ones I seem to have done these things instinctively. glad I now know this for future reference. thank you for sharing
In screenwriter Jeff Kitchen’s book “How to Write a Great Movie” he calls this ‘The Dilemma’.
It’s almost exactly as you described it. Fantastic video!
I see a lot of writing advice/writing guide/writing tip videos on YT but I feel like yours are in a different class altogether. I don't think I've ever see plot broken down the way you do but I love the way you do it and it's been very thought provoking and helpful.
And as for novels that would be fun to talk about...maybe a classic novel and a contemporary one? Something to compare and contrast a bit but also to show that even novels written (comparatively) a long time ago still follow the same structures as ones now. I don't have any specific examples but I just thought I'd throw that theme out there.
It's really cool that you mentioned Secret Window, I love that film ^^ looking forward to the rest!
Ellen, wow, this series is insanely thought provoking. Your explanations and examples are so clarifying. This is the kind of information I was looking for for a long time. Thank you so much! As for suggestions for novels to break down: I'd like to see you break down a story that's heavily character driven or a coming of age. I notice that I find it a lot harder to identify the structure and story beats in novels (of movies) where there are very few external events. For instance 'Where the crawdads sing' by Delia Owens, 'Eleanor & Park' by Rainbow Rowell or 'Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of the Universe' by Benjamin Alire Sáenz. I think that diving into character driven novels and/or coming of age would be very helpful. Keep up the work, I'm looking forward to all of your other (upcoming) videos :)
You are a teacher !
2:18 | Movies talked about
2:24 | How long is the debate?
2:43 | Size of Status Quo & Debate
3:39 | What happens in the debate?
-- 4:38 | Example: Toy Story
-- 5:13 | Impossible Status Quo. Paths: Externally and Internally preferable
-- 5:44 | Example: Juno
This is so great! I’d love it if you could break down two types of books for us when you do your deep dive: both an obvious example and a subtle example. That would help me so much!
NOICE.
As for novels, I'd like to see the structure of The Golden Compass (Northern Lights) broken down.
Love your work and your channel! I’d love to know your take on structuring the arch of a trilogy.
Always love watching and rewatching your videos! Especially the ones on what kind of writer you are.
This one really cleared up some things for me. I would see two or three catalyst-type things in a story and wonder which was the actual catalyst and what the others were and this cleared that up.
I would love to see broken down Jane Eyre broken down since it has a lot of different aspects and a very long set up. I would also really like to see you break down book series and how a story structure is spread out throughout a series while each book has its own structure. Would love to see Six of Crows and Crooked Kingdom broken down, along with The Hunger Games series. I’m writing a series right now and really struggling.
Thank you so much!
I agree about Jane Eyre! I've always wondered if the entire child section was even necessary.
2 novels I would like to see you break down the structure of are "Red Queen" by Victoria Aveyard and/or "Three Dark Crowns" by Kendare Blake. And BTW I loved this video and I'm looking forward to the continuation of this series! :)
Such a wonderful series - thank you so much as always Ellen! For books to deconstruct - would love you to look at The God of Small Things. In particular, I think it’s such an interesting one in terms of multiple timelines and character povs
This got me thinking about the structure in my novel. Could multiple characters have different relationship to "The debate"? For example: my mc's version of the debate is: How do I get my kid sister to accept I need to leave her behind to help her? One supporting lead debate is "How do I accept this secret space from the wrong people knowing about it?" Kid sister's debate would be "How do I keep from being left in a place I don't know." etc. Maybe another to ask this is: Can each character/ story arch have a debate of it's own?
Fellowship (the film) would be a great story to analyze like this. It has a great example of a midpoint (Frodo saying "I will do it") that sort of flies under the radar most of the time. It's also great for us fantasy nerds to see some more rigorous paradigms actually applied!
👀👀👀 that 30 min+ timestamp! brb need to grab my ellen brock notes and a pen (who am i kidding, i take notes on the sub-10 min videos too)
As usual, this inspired another small breakthrough idea for my story! My character Sy’s arc is looking even better nyehehehhe
Fantastically helpful as always. Can I ask a question on your Hunger Games examples. If the Katniss volunteering isn't the first plot point, does this decision have any structural significance (or name) or is it just part of the disruption?
Great video and great series so far! Would you please consider deconstructing The Nightingale by Kristen Hannah? I'd love to hear your analysis of how the author handled the story's structure with the POV of each sister.
A deconstruction of the Slated Trilogy would be pretty cool imho. One of if not my favourites books ever.
This information is both valuable and well presented. Your insite and breakdown of 'Atonement ' by Ian McEwen would be appreciated. Thank you.
I almost feel like the end of the debate is my flash forward prologue. Edit:maybe it’s just one status quo becoming another? Editedit: your example w Hunger Games helped me fix my problem, I think. My debate wasn’t what I thought it was. Thanks, Ellen
Awesome vid! The Hunger Games point was like a revelation for me lol.
When I write, I always have trouble putting my scenes in the correct order. The middle always feels messy. Do you have any quick tips? :)
I've heard on other writing videos that it is suggested to jump straight into the meat of the Story. Is it absolutely imperative that you write a status quo? Or can you drop the reader in to the middle of the action?
As Ellen explains, the status quo can be long or really short and yes even skipped, depending on the type of story and genre.
You can drop a character straight into the action and even have that action be an action scene. But your world will need to be easily understood, or at least enough to grasp the scene, for it to work.
What they usually mean by that advice though is exactly what Ellen explains in this video in different words.
You should start at a moment in time that is relevant. Even if their mundane is alien and not mundane to the reader, it still shouldn't just start at any random day.
As with the hunger games not starting on a random hunting day, but on the day where candidates get chosen from the district. That in and of itself is not a unique event, but it's still nerve-wracking and this one obviously hits different.
Is the act 1 climax/first plot point the same as "break into 2"? Looking at Save the Cat and there is no first plot point. It goes straight from Debate to Break into 2. I'm trying to distill my novel's plot points and the terminology is making me wonder if I'm missing something here.
Thank you for this content.. wow. I will put in a vote for you to break down The Name of The Wind. Yes, it's a longer debut novel than most- but that's exactly why. Why exactly did it succeed where so many others fail?
How are you so good at this? This is really great advice.
Ooooo..... This is a great help thank you so much for sharing your craft!
I would love to see "THE HOST" by Stephenie Meyer broken down and analyzed. (The book is sooo much better than the movie.)
I have always wondered what the debate is in Pride and Prejudice. Is it when Elizabeth decides to go to Jane when she is ill at Netherfield? Internally, Elizabeth would prefer to avoid seeing Darcy etc again, but that doesn't sit right with her loyalty to her sister. Externally, Mrs Bennet makes it known that she wants Jane to remain at Netherfield to win Bingley, which means Elizabeth will have to defy her mother if she wants to see Jane. Then Elizabeth decides to go with her internal need to be loyal to her sister above her internal need to avoid Darcy, even though she knows her external world will become more difficult when her mother openly disapproves?
I really struggle trying to "find" the debate of my romance centered novel. In my story, I have a job problem happen to the protagonist that makes her meet the love interest, but this problem doesn't really create a debate on whether she should meet this guy again. It rather changes her current life. Should I make the love interest play a part on the character's decision? or should this change in her life give her the possibility to explore her relationship with the love interest?
What would be the debate in The Road? Or even (not to ask people to write my story for me), any story in an apocalypse setting?
Question for clarification: if Katniss volunteering for the Games is not the 1st plot point, what is the 1st plot point? Is the volunteering the disruption?
Thank you so much for this series! It's so helpful. Could you break down Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens?
I really love your video Ellen! You are really up to knowledge and you give a lot of NEW perspective on writing, I have discovered a lot of new topics and books following your channel! I never encountered the term “first quarter debate”, though. And, I know: labels are not important, skill is. But I’m a writer and teacher and a curious being: is the “first quarter debate” a industry related term? Or there is some source that inspired you?
Thanks A LOT for what you do! All videos about types of writer and this series on arch is PURE VALUE. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you for watching! This is a great question. "The debate" is a screenwriting term. I would say it's pretty broadly known in screenwriting circles. Screenwriters use three-act structure, so the "first quarter" wouldn't be a term used at all in that context. I prefer four-quarter structure because I think it's easier to conceptualize, however it's important to note that it is the same structure as three-act structure, just with an extra dividing line (the second act is 50-60% of three-act structure, and four-act structure conceptualizes another split that divides the second act into two parts/quarters that are each about 25-30%). With novel structure, you usually only see the Hero's Journey version of the debate, which is "the refusal of the call." I just don't like that term as much personally because I think it's hard to see what "the call" is in some stories. "The call" is obvious enough in Deadpool, but less so in Toy Story. I hope this helps and makes sense!
Great video.👍I had a question. How do you answer questions in a novel ? What ways do you use to get to the answers ? While writing a story, we come across questions(regarding character, conflict, etc.) which needs to be answered to move ahead. I wanted to know what techniques do you use when you are stuck in a story (by these questions) ? Thank you.😃
If I understand what you're asking, you're talking about needing to brainstorm a solution to something you don't know as you write. I recommend writing down what you need to figure out (For example, "I need to know what powers this character has.") and then write down what you know about the solution (For example, "He has to be able to escape from chains. He can't be so strong he can escape from the cage at the end of the book. I want him to do something with animals."). At least for me, this helps me to narrow in on some good options. Hope that helps!
Book deconstruction suggestion: I'd love to see deconstruction of Pride and Prejudice!
I'm also curious about how to deconstruct a book like one from A Song of Ice and Fire series by G.R.R. Martin because it has so many characters and PoVs and different subplots, but maybe that would be complicated and I should look elsewhere. :)
These videos are so helpful! Thanks a lot! In the first video you mention that the disruption isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least at first. I am wondering what impact a "positive" disruption has on the debate structure. In order to put the character in the position of having 2 bad choices, I need to reveal the negative consequences of the "positive" disruption first. Would the debate section work if the choices and stakes are not clear until the very end of the section? What are the common mistakes authors make in this set up?
I wonder about your thoughts on a protagonist being happy to accept the call to action, instead of refusing.
I know this example is a video game, so probably not something people on this channel are too familiar with but:
Tales of Symphonia (If anyone's worried about spoilers, stop reading here please lol)
The call to action is the Oracle, when the Chosen One is finally ready to go on her foretold Journey of Regeneration (aka save the world). She and the rest of the world have known about this since before she was born, so the protagonist, Lloyd, is also not shocked when the call to action occurs. In fact, he and everyone else were waiting for it and knew when it would happen.
And because the Chosen One, Collette, is his childhood friend, he's quite eager to go on the journey with her as well. He's never left his little village before, and he thinks of the journey as a grand adventure and fancies the idea of becoming a hero that saves the world. However, multiple of the adults, and Colette herself, conspire to keep him from going with her. So he's essentially left behind. This is because Colette knows that she's going to have to die to save the world, and she doesn't want him to see that.
He ends up going after her anyway, and even though the journey starts off pretty adventurous and exciting, it's slowly taking a dark turn. And Lloyd is gradually realizing that this journey and the world in general are not like he thought they would be.
And of course, when the time comes for Colette to die and he finally finds out about it (basically right before it happens), he directly interferes and stops her from dying (the midpoint) thus sparking the second part of the story.
I think maybe the lack of refusal worked okay in the end because it was a decision of naivete. And eventually, the seriousness of that choice gets reflected later. He was so eager to go on the journey at the start, but as it goes on, the fun wears off and the harsh reality sets in and he has to face serious emotional trauma as a result. So I think it still works, but that's just my thoughts.
Sounds like Colette is a better protag, and the midpoint might be a better first plot point. Not 100% sure since I never heard of the game before, thus my judgement might be lacking.
@@Peachu_n_Goma_Home
Nah, she doesn't really work as a protagonist because the rest of the story is Lloyd's attempt to find a way to save the world without using the Chosen One method. (And also uncover the massive conspiracy surrounding the Chosen One journey)
Colette takes a major back seat as soon as she's saved from dying (partly because she's in a catatonic state for a period of time afterwards. The interrupted Chosen One sacrifice didn't fully kill her, but it did do a number on her.)
But even if she was the protagonist, she also accepted her role as a human sacrifice pretty much from her childhood. She never rejected the call to action either, as far as I'm aware. And instead, from a young age, she adopted that assigned role as part of her identity, seeing her purpose in life as making others safe and happy. She always believed she would die young and not get a life, and she's long made peace with it way before the story began. But this belief is thrown out after she's rescued, and her friends encourage her to finally start living for herself.
Ellen, I am starting to understand the story structure much better with your two lessons on status quo and debate. I've listened to both multiple times. These topics seem to be left out of most of the "how to write" books and videos that I study. Please keep up the fantastic work. I keep checking for new material every few days. I am indeed impatient.
I do have a question that has come up for me triggered by your work. Clearly we have the Protagonist and the antagonist (ic forces) but what about the function of other characters and situations. Certainly there must be some "science" about what elements are necessary to illuminate or propel the plot. Is that something you can address? We know archetypes such as the mentor, the lover, the buddy, but are they necessary in some form even if they are part of the character of one of the 'tagonists?
Thanks for the video, Ellen! Can the debate happen after an en medias res + flashback type of beginning?
Yes. In that case the structure would be: en media res (or flashback), status quo, disruption (inciting incident/catalyst), debate, first plot point. Hope that helps!
This is a super helpful video Ellen! I really liked the contrast between the overt debate and the implied debate - it helped me to conceptualise what the tension of this part of the story is actually doing.
I'm also curious - is the debate there as a framework for exploring the stakes, or maybe the internal world of the protagonist, so that we're with them and understand them when they start making choices afterward?
I’d love to see a deconstruction of Constantine Capers by Natalie Brianne! It’s one of my favorites 😍
Hi Ellen, love your videos. Would like to get your take on the first book of The Expanse series - Leviathan Wakes (James S A Corey). I am writing a sci-fi novel and would love to learn more about writing this genre. Thank you!!
Hey Ellen, I would like you to structurally deconstruct the 1939 Nathaniel West novel, (The day of the Locust) Also a film in the 70s. Thanks Dave
I’d love you to deconstruct the song of Achilles and explain how that feeling at the end of the story was built up from the beginning
For looking at novels, how about anything by Jane Austen, or Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell?
My disruption is a set of military orders in a fantasy. I don’t know how to debate that because he literally has no choice?
emotional debate maybe? like what she said about the hunger games rather than just the quest
I agree with the previous comment, the debate could be about the protagonist’s attitude towards the order. Maybe he wants to execute his order to make his family proud and become a national hero even though internally he’s afraid of doing it. Conversely, maybe the order is something amoral and he’s afraid of being perceived as a “monster” if he executes it
so the debate is about the protagonist choosing what they feel is the lesser evil essentially?
I would love a structural deconstruction of hanya yanagihara’s a little life
32:08 Hey, are you still planning to go ahead with this? It would be nice to see your structural break down of some classics. "The Hobbit" and "Notes from Underground" are my two suggestions :)
Could you please dissect Call Me by Your Name, the book? It's non-standard in structure (the author avoided inserting the element of conflict) and would be very useful in trying to understand the typical story structure, by contrast