What is the First Quarter Debate? | Story Structure Pt. 2
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
- This is the second video in my advanced story structure series, which focuses on the sections in-between the major plot points to better explain how to construct a novel or screenplay.
First Video: • How to Write the Statu...
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Ellen, I have enjoyed all your teaching from the past years but these videos that you are producing in 2022 are much more rich and full. I listen to them several times and get good insights each time. I am sure to do the same with today's video. These are true master class lessons. I would like to request a long lesson on plotting the story structure of a series and how the plot points are laid out from book to book. How does something that might appear in book three get prepared for in book one, etc.
Thank you, John! That is definitely something I'm interested in doing!
I agree ... I've watched most of the content here, but the last few have been particularly good and helpful!
@@techniques9004 I agree. Worth paying for. I think more of Ellen's 100,000 subscribers should pony up for her great work. Flight of fancy here - Imagine if lots of them put in just a few bucks! She could go on a great vacation.
I follow a lot of "how to write" channels, and have gone through huge amounts of other content in my journey to learn how to do all this ... and your content has been consistently some of the most helpful and practical and valuable. I've never created a patreon account before, but I think I'm going to. I really feel like your work has been a huge help and I feel as if I owe you a debt of gratitude ... since I can't do that in person, the least I can do is try and support you in your efforts.
I'm at work while I watch this video (don't tell my boss lol), but I'm going to set that up when I get home.
Thank you again for sharing your insights and perspectives.
Thank you so much! That's very kind of you. I'm so glad you find my videos helpful.
This was such a huge game changer for my story! I always felt like something wasn’t quite right with my current outline, but after watching this video I knew exactly how to fix the issue! Thank you so much!!
I have watched this series more times than I can count. I thought I had pulled everything I needed from it but yet again you have given me new insight into the events and characters of my current WIP. Thanks again Ellen! This series should be a masterclass.
This was super clear and helpful, and I finally get why my character's "debate" never seemed that meaningful; I thought this was the one plot point I really understood, but it turns out I didn't, lol. But I do now!
And I second Pride & Prejudice for a breakdown!
Great breakdown! I think it's also important to realize that the debate is never a factual question (paranormal vs. ordinary), but is instead always a values question
Wow, that hunger games example really showed I misunderstood the concept before this video! Thanks a lot. I already feel better about where a few of my longer stories are going.
I really appreciate these advanced writing discussions and would love to see more. I’m established as a writer, but diving into longer fiction I can find myself in murky waters in terms of structure-which can really stall me. But the trendy, showboats “save the cat’ type adaptations of the hero’s journey, and basic discussions about dialogue, narrative info dumps, character arcs, etc some of us are beyond that but need this higher level help. The videos also provide me with a ‘companion’ in the writing process, which is a psychological benefit for me, specifically, as my writing career usually involved a team effort and I’ve stalled a lot just from writing alone-ie being kept on track, which I find these videos a huge contribution. Also, great use of examples! The advise is genuine, not exploitive and assumes an intelligence on the writer’s part-love the absence of pandering.
So more advanced discussions: the use of subtext, unreliable narrators, etc in addition to these excellent (micro?) structures. When you talk about fails, it would be nice if you provide examples to these as well… but maybe that’s not politic. Thanks Ellen.
The Hunger Games is my all time favorite book because it is so well written. You can break down every scene and see exactly what she was trying to accomplish with it and it’s so affective. They also did a great job putting it into movie format- especially how they put pieces of the second book in to show how other districts reacted to Rue’s death. Also, the scene with the game master and the berries was so simple but a great addition. They had some amazing screenwriters.
Nice video. Like you said, without this debate the reader doesn't feel like the decision is meaningful to the character. I think that's key: Making the impact on the character clear to the reader.
Ella enchanted would be fun to deconstruct. I loved it as a kid, and it holds up to rereading.
That thing you said about forcing plot points into certain structural formats really helped me conceptualize my plot points much more clearly. Its like i had a blindfold on and didn’t know it.
I can’t wait to see the rest of this series! You’re so right that the in between time between plot points can be confusing, so this is super helpful
I intuitively pantsed my first two novels and have slowly moved towards 'intuitive plotting', finding it saves me having to edit and fix so many problems that come up in my writing. I'm binging all your videos before I get to plotting my third novel, and it's all so helpful! Thank you!
Wow, thanks Ellen!
My disruption just pushed my main character out of the status quo, dramatic, but no real decision was made.
But that example you gave of Deadpool showed that I could make it MUCH better by presenting my character with two hard choices.
Same for me. I have some editing to do tomorrow, good luck
You are absolutely the best teacher I have ever encountered. Thank you for helping me understand these methodologies and reinvigorate my excitement for writing and refining my writing process ❤
This was so helpful! I tend to follow more heroine’s journeys where there is more acceptance of the choice, but i see how a debate section could show how the heroine makes the choice despite fear or feelings of inadequacy (e.g. Romancing the Stone).
I’d like to see persuasion or Emma or pride & prejudice (books not films) assessed.
This is SO good. Your channel was always good, but it's going from strength to strength with your new content. Thank you, on behalf of myself and my writing.
Thank you! I'm so glad you like the new videos!
Jeez, this story quarter series is soooo good
Ahh so exciting to wake up and see a new upload from you! I really connect with the way you describe the debate stage, especially your examples of stories where the protagonist has to choose between external change and confronting who they are on the inside, and how a story can bloom from either choice. (Juno was a particularly helpful example here!) Thanks so much!
I'm so glad it helped!
You're an absolute treasure Ellen. I can't thank you enough for your insights.
While watching this video I was thinking, "Do I actually have a proper debate?" in my current WIP. The disruption and the first plot points have been murky for me to pin down, just because a lot happens and I wasn't quite sure what was what. Then you got to the end, and the whole "Hunger Games" example. Everything clicked at that point. I realized what my disruption is, what the debate is (yes, two bad choices) and what the first plot point is. It all seems obvious now, but another scene a little later had me doubting. Now I know, thanks to your help. Thank you for your incredible insights and videos. You are a WONDERFUL resource, and we are so glad you're here for us. ❤
Thank you for your amazing explanations as always! I'm struggling with this plot point at the moment, I know what I want to happen in the story, but the debate ended up having nothing to do with my character's inner motivation and misbelief, so there's no conflict like in the way you said. It's difficult, but thank you for clearing up my mind!
Your videos are so clear and insightful, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us.
I would love to hear you deconstruct Pride & Prejudice.
Ellen, you're a lifesaver. I just finished editing my new novel and the debate section was a slog because I forced it to go nowhere for the sake of structure. Your Katniss example at the end helped me to rethink my approach to the debate. Can't wait to get revising--thanks!
Excellent information and explanations. So clarifying about the debate. Thank you.
Hello Ellen, I love your videos! The level of depth and nuance is incredibly helpful!
Would you consider adding a visual of bullet points, maybe in an end-of-video summary? It'd be really helpful for taking notes and being able to remember the details. I don't know if other people feel this way, but as a visual learner, this would really help.
Extremely helpful. You are very clear and precise in your explanations. Really understanding storytelling because of you
Sometimes I wonder if methodological writers and editors try too hard to fit stories (which are amazingly complex) into simplified structures. What she says about hunger games is a great example of this, to me. Really, Catniss volunteering for the hunger games isn’t the 1st plot point??? It smacks to me of overfitted data. Ellen, I love your content, and I would love to hear you respond to this. What is story structure to you? Do you see it as truth? Or do you acknowledge that it is, by necessity, a flawed model of something very complex?
Regardless, watching your videos is helping me edit my 1st draft. You’ve helped me think in new ways. Thank you!
Cheers!
I already watched this and took copious notes, but I'm actually *writing* the debate today so I'm getting me a refresher. Thanks, Ellen! You make the best--and most complete--writing videos, hands down ❤
This is a big step to the solution of my „in-between-problem“. I literally stopped the video and jumped to my feet grabbing a pen and putting this down in my Writer‘s Little Helper Book (full of helping hints, mostly but not only by Ellen). As usual, thank you very much!
These are absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much! I cannot wait to hear the next one. I'm really looking forward to when you have time to work on the act two videos!
The timing of this video is great! I was having problems with the debate section of two WIPs and didn't even know what was wrong, only that they felt too quick. Turns out I was making the last mistake you mentioned and the true "decision" moments actually happened much later, I just wasn't able to see it... I had no idea this was a thing, haha. Thank you so much!
This series is the reason I check youtube everyday! So clear and helpful. Thank you and I am eagerly waiting for more of this videos. Cheers!
This was such a helpful video, especially the Hunger Games analysis! Like I definitely misunderstand what parts of a novel or film are what plot points etc. Thank you!
Back in absolutely excellent form Ellen! I've already written my debate section, but you make some key points here that makes me realize that the decision of my protag to enter the upside-down world of Act II is a bit too easily won. Appreciate you
A deconstruction of the Slated Trilogy would be pretty cool imho. One of if not my favourites books ever.
Golden!
The examples put much deeper meaning to instructions previously learned but obviously not fully appreciated. I learned a few things. Thank you.
Thanks Ellen! I listened to your entire video on the treadmill. I’ve never heard the “debate” explained quite like this. Excellent. I plan to listen 🎧 again with my notebook by my side.
This helped me figure out the problem with the beginning of my story! Thank you for explaining it so well.
Ellen, you are Informatinaly pulling the tab and pouring out this wonderfully brewed story structure into the frosty condensation dripping container of thoughts on my writing..but with this make sure to pour it all over the keyboard ...Thanks, Ellen.
Thanks for these videos about the structure. Please, keep the good work.
All love from Egypt.
Thank you so much for your videos. You are a good teacher, and the concret examples are really helpful. I'm so glad you came back to youtube.
I have been working on a plot for a while now (preparing for November) and there are a lot of videos that explain things, but not in nearly this much depth or detail!
I discovered your videos a few days ago, and I feel like they have affected me more than the others that are very general. Thank you for your content!
Extremely helpful. Just what I needed. Thank you.
Loving every second of this. Your videos are making my work (and my life) better
That's great to hear! Thanks for watching!
Ellen, wow, this series is insanely thought provoking. Your explanations and examples are so clarifying. This is the kind of information I was looking for for a long time. Thank you so much! As for suggestions for novels to break down: I'd like to see you break down a story that's heavily character driven or a coming of age. I notice that I find it a lot harder to identify the structure and story beats in novels (of movies) where there are very few external events. For instance 'Where the crawdads sing' by Delia Owens, 'Eleanor & Park' by Rainbow Rowell or 'Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of the Universe' by Benjamin Alire Sáenz. I think that diving into character driven novels and/or coming of age would be very helpful. Keep up the work, I'm looking forward to all of your other (upcoming) videos :)
It's really cool that you mentioned Secret Window, I love that film ^^ looking forward to the rest!
I see a lot of writing advice/writing guide/writing tip videos on YT but I feel like yours are in a different class altogether. I don't think I've ever see plot broken down the way you do but I love the way you do it and it's been very thought provoking and helpful.
And as for novels that would be fun to talk about...maybe a classic novel and a contemporary one? Something to compare and contrast a bit but also to show that even novels written (comparatively) a long time ago still follow the same structures as ones now. I don't have any specific examples but I just thought I'd throw that theme out there.
Really good explanation! Since I'm working with dual protagonists, one which involves an evolution into another side of themselves, their acceptance comes right in the place of the first quarter it needs to be(whether they accept the status quo or not) while the other faces a negative character arc(so their status quo is already absent, and has been for a long time, so they attempt regularly to get it, even force it back). These two clash for a sort of control which drives the plot as a lot of conflict is setup because of the other protagonist (as they share the same body).
This is so great! I’d love it if you could break down two types of books for us when you do your deep dive: both an obvious example and a subtle example. That would help me so much!
In screenwriter Jeff Kitchen’s book “How to Write a Great Movie” he calls this ‘The Dilemma’.
It’s almost exactly as you described it. Fantastic video!
NOICE.
As for novels, I'd like to see the structure of The Golden Compass (Northern Lights) broken down.
Always love watching and rewatching your videos! Especially the ones on what kind of writer you are.
This one really cleared up some things for me. I would see two or three catalyst-type things in a story and wonder which was the actual catalyst and what the others were and this cleared that up.
I would love to see broken down Jane Eyre broken down since it has a lot of different aspects and a very long set up. I would also really like to see you break down book series and how a story structure is spread out throughout a series while each book has its own structure. Would love to see Six of Crows and Crooked Kingdom broken down, along with The Hunger Games series. I’m writing a series right now and really struggling.
Thank you so much!
I agree about Jane Eyre! I've always wondered if the entire child section was even necessary.
You are a teacher !
Such a wonderful series - thank you so much as always Ellen! For books to deconstruct - would love you to look at The God of Small Things. In particular, I think it’s such an interesting one in terms of multiple timelines and character povs
I love watching your videos because of all information and wisdom, I dislike it because I realise I need to seriously edit my old manuscripts 😂 luckily in my newer ones I seem to have done these things instinctively. glad I now know this for future reference. thank you for sharing
2 novels I would like to see you break down the structure of are "Red Queen" by Victoria Aveyard and/or "Three Dark Crowns" by Kendare Blake. And BTW I loved this video and I'm looking forward to the continuation of this series! :)
Fellowship (the film) would be a great story to analyze like this. It has a great example of a midpoint (Frodo saying "I will do it") that sort of flies under the radar most of the time. It's also great for us fantasy nerds to see some more rigorous paradigms actually applied!
👀👀👀 that 30 min+ timestamp! brb need to grab my ellen brock notes and a pen (who am i kidding, i take notes on the sub-10 min videos too)
This is a super helpful video Ellen! I really liked the contrast between the overt debate and the implied debate - it helped me to conceptualise what the tension of this part of the story is actually doing.
I'm also curious - is the debate there as a framework for exploring the stakes, or maybe the internal world of the protagonist, so that we're with them and understand them when they start making choices afterward?
I really love your video Ellen! You are really up to knowledge and you give a lot of NEW perspective on writing, I have discovered a lot of new topics and books following your channel! I never encountered the term “first quarter debate”, though. And, I know: labels are not important, skill is. But I’m a writer and teacher and a curious being: is the “first quarter debate” a industry related term? Or there is some source that inspired you?
Thanks A LOT for what you do! All videos about types of writer and this series on arch is PURE VALUE. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you for watching! This is a great question. "The debate" is a screenwriting term. I would say it's pretty broadly known in screenwriting circles. Screenwriters use three-act structure, so the "first quarter" wouldn't be a term used at all in that context. I prefer four-quarter structure because I think it's easier to conceptualize, however it's important to note that it is the same structure as three-act structure, just with an extra dividing line (the second act is 50-60% of three-act structure, and four-act structure conceptualizes another split that divides the second act into two parts/quarters that are each about 25-30%). With novel structure, you usually only see the Hero's Journey version of the debate, which is "the refusal of the call." I just don't like that term as much personally because I think it's hard to see what "the call" is in some stories. "The call" is obvious enough in Deadpool, but less so in Toy Story. I hope this helps and makes sense!
Great video and great series so far! Would you please consider deconstructing The Nightingale by Kristen Hannah? I'd love to hear your analysis of how the author handled the story's structure with the POV of each sister.
As usual, this inspired another small breakthrough idea for my story! My character Sy’s arc is looking even better nyehehehhe
How are you so good at this? This is really great advice.
Fantastically helpful as always. Can I ask a question on your Hunger Games examples. If the Katniss volunteering isn't the first plot point, does this decision have any structural significance (or name) or is it just part of the disruption?
I almost feel like the end of the debate is my flash forward prologue. Edit:maybe it’s just one status quo becoming another? Editedit: your example w Hunger Games helped me fix my problem, I think. My debate wasn’t what I thought it was. Thanks, Ellen
I’d love to see you deconstruct the hunger games
Awesome vid! The Hunger Games point was like a revelation for me lol.
When I write, I always have trouble putting my scenes in the correct order. The middle always feels messy. Do you have any quick tips? :)
I’d love you to deconstruct the song of Achilles and explain how that feeling at the end of the story was built up from the beginning
The debate...in other words, CONFLICT of the CONFLICT.😀
Ellen, I am starting to understand the story structure much better with your two lessons on status quo and debate. I've listened to both multiple times. These topics seem to be left out of most of the "how to write" books and videos that I study. Please keep up the fantastic work. I keep checking for new material every few days. I am indeed impatient.
I do have a question that has come up for me triggered by your work. Clearly we have the Protagonist and the antagonist (ic forces) but what about the function of other characters and situations. Certainly there must be some "science" about what elements are necessary to illuminate or propel the plot. Is that something you can address? We know archetypes such as the mentor, the lover, the buddy, but are they necessary in some form even if they are part of the character of one of the 'tagonists?
Thank you for this content.. wow. I will put in a vote for you to break down The Name of The Wind. Yes, it's a longer debut novel than most- but that's exactly why. Why exactly did it succeed where so many others fail?
Ooooo..... This is a great help thank you so much for sharing your craft!
I would love to see "THE HOST" by Stephenie Meyer broken down and analyzed. (The book is sooo much better than the movie.)
These videos are so helpful! Thanks a lot! In the first video you mention that the disruption isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least at first. I am wondering what impact a "positive" disruption has on the debate structure. In order to put the character in the position of having 2 bad choices, I need to reveal the negative consequences of the "positive" disruption first. Would the debate section work if the choices and stakes are not clear until the very end of the section? What are the common mistakes authors make in this set up?
Thank you so much for this series! It's so helpful. Could you break down Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens?
I’d love to see a deconstruction of Constantine Capers by Natalie Brianne! It’s one of my favorites 😍
This information is both valuable and well presented. Your insite and breakdown of 'Atonement ' by Ian McEwen would be appreciated. Thank you.
This got me thinking about the structure in my novel. Could multiple characters have different relationship to "The debate"? For example: my mc's version of the debate is: How do I get my kid sister to accept I need to leave her behind to help her? One supporting lead debate is "How do I accept this secret space from the wrong people knowing about it?" Kid sister's debate would be "How do I keep from being left in a place I don't know." etc. Maybe another to ask this is: Can each character/ story arch have a debate of it's own?
I'd like to see a Carrian Comfort broken down. It goes all over the place.
Book deconstruction suggestion: I'd love to see deconstruction of Pride and Prejudice!
I'm also curious about how to deconstruct a book like one from A Song of Ice and Fire series by G.R.R. Martin because it has so many characters and PoVs and different subplots, but maybe that would be complicated and I should look elsewhere. :)
You are awesome
32:08 Hey, are you still planning to go ahead with this? It would be nice to see your structural break down of some classics. "The Hobbit" and "Notes from Underground" are my two suggestions :)
Thanks
Thank you so much for your support!
The best.
Thanks for the video, Ellen! Can the debate happen after an en medias res + flashback type of beginning?
Yes. In that case the structure would be: en media res (or flashback), status quo, disruption (inciting incident/catalyst), debate, first plot point. Hope that helps!
Hi Ellen, love your videos. Would like to get your take on the first book of The Expanse series - Leviathan Wakes (James S A Corey). I am writing a sci-fi novel and would love to learn more about writing this genre. Thank you!!
I would love a structural deconstruction of hanya yanagihara’s a little life
Great video.👍I had a question. How do you answer questions in a novel ? What ways do you use to get to the answers ? While writing a story, we come across questions(regarding character, conflict, etc.) which needs to be answered to move ahead. I wanted to know what techniques do you use when you are stuck in a story (by these questions) ? Thank you.😃
If I understand what you're asking, you're talking about needing to brainstorm a solution to something you don't know as you write. I recommend writing down what you need to figure out (For example, "I need to know what powers this character has.") and then write down what you know about the solution (For example, "He has to be able to escape from chains. He can't be so strong he can escape from the cage at the end of the book. I want him to do something with animals."). At least for me, this helps me to narrow in on some good options. Hope that helps!
I've heard on other writing videos that it is suggested to jump straight into the meat of the Story. Is it absolutely imperative that you write a status quo? Or can you drop the reader in to the middle of the action?
For looking at novels, how about anything by Jane Austen, or Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell?
Hey Ellen, I would like you to structurally deconstruct the 1939 Nathaniel West novel, (The day of the Locust) Also a film in the 70s. Thanks Dave
I have always wondered what the debate is in Pride and Prejudice. Is it when Elizabeth decides to go to Jane when she is ill at Netherfield? Internally, Elizabeth would prefer to avoid seeing Darcy etc again, but that doesn't sit right with her loyalty to her sister. Externally, Mrs Bennet makes it known that she wants Jane to remain at Netherfield to win Bingley, which means Elizabeth will have to defy her mother if she wants to see Jane. Then Elizabeth decides to go with her internal need to be loyal to her sister above her internal need to avoid Darcy, even though she knows her external world will become more difficult when her mother openly disapproves?
The Exorcist powerfully illustrates the status quo/debate dynamic, when the mother comes to accept that her daughter is possessed.
Thanks for this video, Ellen. It made me take a closer look at the relationship between status quo and inciting event in my WIP. I see now that there is not enough external/internal debate in my protagonist's head, although there is a short argument between her and her parents about what she should do regarding the inciting event. I think she capitulates too soon, so I'll need to fix that by fleshing out the E/I debate.
Hey Ellen! Can you deconstruct 'Gone Girl'. The book has a really great structure that lends to the story more than most I have read.
What would be the debate in The Road? Or even (not to ask people to write my story for me), any story in an apocalypse setting?
Question for clarification: if Katniss volunteering for the Games is not the 1st plot point, what is the 1st plot point? Is the volunteering the disruption?
I would like to see the first or second book of the locked tomb series „Gideon the ninth“ oder „harrow the ninth“ by Tamsyn Muir :)
I would love to have broken down The Fifth Season by N. K. Jemisin. I aspire to craft as masterfully as she.