00:01 Intro 02:10 Find the right amount of plotting for you 03:45 Use a story structure template Personalize a template from different systems 06:20 Avoid pointless or ineffective worksheets Especially character and world building worksheets 08:45 Plan your characters' personalities Big 5 personality traits Myers-Briggs 11:55 Define the character arc Flaw/false belief/wound End of arc 14:10 Don't leave tone to chance Mix of 2 or 3 17:15 Brainstorm multiple plot trajectories Beware of predictable plots 18:25 Be honest about whether a plot point works Don't rush the process 20:10 Plan in some "wow" moments Don't use cliches 22:05 Consider scene length Helps estimate length of each story section 23:30 Plan the scene structure Beginning, middle, end Goal, conflict, resolution Helps evaluate scenes - make scene more interesting, estimate word count 25:10 When you're stuck on the outline, explain the problem (to yourself or someone else) Methodological plotters take advice well 27:50 Update your outline as you write (or at least before you edit) 29:00 Edit the outline before the novel itself 30:10 Start revisions by looking at the placement of the plot points Check the word counts 31:55 Don't panic when your voice isn't strong in the first draft Work on a scene at a time OR one aspect (e.g. emotional arc, character's dialog, descriptions) at a time 33:45 Don't ignore your gut Intuition can sometimes be better than methodology 34:40 Outro
Thank you so much for all of these kinds of videos! While I'm a pantser (learned from you!), a lot of videos out there dont explain much on the ACTUAL writing styles and/or give tips as to hone your own style of writing. These videos have been awesome at explaining so many quirks in my own writing styles that I never realized had names 🤣
😆😆😆 My grandfather owned a trucking company. If he were still here, I bet you could sit up for hours and share stories. Y’all always have the best ones!!
As an MFA graduate, thank you so much for your practical and focused approach. There's* an ocean of videos with authors scolding other writers about what not to do. This is much more helpful advice. Cheers!
My jaw dropped when you started talking about tone!! In all my years of taking creative writing classes, I've never heard of planning tone out in advance. Despite this, I do it all the time, but have always felt that it was weird/uncreative/un-writerly of me, like tone should come way more naturally to me. Thank you for validating that this is a real, writerly thing I can do!
i love how you've presented the idea that anyone might be anywhere on this matrix not only as an overall writer but for each different aspect of the writing process, and that you're not trying to put any single person into any single bin. it sounds obvious and simple but 🧐🧐🧐 clearly it isn't lol. ty again for sharing your insights with us, ellen!!!
ELLEN. This material can be the next popular book on writing. PART ONE: Writer Types. PART TWO: 100 Writing Exercises to Determine and Develop Your Strengths.
Wow, this was absolutely eye-opening. I was totally convinced I was a methodological pantser, but now I've realised that I'm probably a methodological plotter who hates plotting (because of a bad experience in the past). I guess it's time to give it another go.
I fully empathize with you, and am in the same place. It honestly sounds more fun but I realize I am not too intuitive so I need outline. Meh, as long as it turns into an awesome novel irdc. Agree?
@@arjunsrinivasanr5813 Haha, I wrote this comment two years ago, and I have since come to realise (also thanks to Ellen's videos) that I'm probably an intuitive plotter. I thought I was methodological because I'm good at analyzing literature and at recognizing the underlying story structures. But that's not how I come up with ideas. My idea generating process is much more intuitive, but I can't rely on having sparks of inspiration whenever I sit down, so I need to plan ahead. In any case I agree, the quality of the novel is all that matters. :)
@@asharablack I certainly wasnt expecting a response since i saw the 2yr timestamp haha. Anyways, I am not entirely sure which type I am, but I am leaning more towards methodological plotter right now. I have a bunch of brainstormed ideas but having NO structure just makes it too random. I prefer to have a basic outline going forward so I believe I am a methodological plotter but I guess I'm still in trial and error phase. Thank you for sharing your experiences mate. Cheers!
The thing I love about you series is that you made me understand that there are different ways to write and none of them is right or wrong, some things just don't work for certain types. And it seems to me that UA-cam is now flooded with methodological pantsers giving writing advice and they made me think that my writing process is a disaster and I must completely change my approach, make more detailed plans and character worksheets, etc. And I think if I did so, it could have killed all the joy of writing for me.
Ah I remember taking the Myers-Briggs test several years ago. Turns out I am an Advocate and it sounded pretty spot on. I forgot what personality types my characters ended up with but I do remember trying to force the answers in the direction I believed they were.
I started this thinking it'd be interesting to see different sorts of writers, see what makes em tick. Get good ideas from that. However I finished the video convinced this one is actually me! Thank you so much for stating writing concepts in such a comprehensive way!
These have been the best 35 minutes of writing instruction I've had in a long time. Your guidance is clear, specific, and encouraging. It makes me feel as though this novel-writing thing is actually doable. Can't thank you enough.
Could you possibly make a video where you can give methodological plotting methods for foreshadowing? Kind of like a story structure, but for things like establishing a characters track record of behaviors on smaller scales that foreshadow a greater character flaw/misbelief?
Enneagram is also a really useful personality type tool. And a tip with brainstorming that worked for me was making a list of 20 ideas. It forces you to think beyond the obvious to the more outrageous or ridiculous, which sometimes sparks a more believable solution.
@@EllenBrock For me, it's much easier to visualise and conceptualise the enneagram types in context. I suppose I'm a visual learner. With MBTI I'm only able to conceptualise the two types I fall between, and the acronyms don't really help. I think it's much easier to understand a 1 and 9, and how some people fall between both.
Can I just say that I'm very happy that you are back to posting videos? I kept wondering where you went, and it's nice to see your face and tips pop up in my subscriptions once again.
I love using the Enneagram for character creation, especially with inner arcs. At least for newbies, it's a little easier to maneuver than the Meyers-Briggs, while still getting you into the character's heart. I also think that quietly imagining your character in critical scenes can spark the intuition of a methodical writer.
I’ve been waiting for this one omg 💜 I’m neck deep in developmental edits for my manuscript. Your channel is my absolute favorite & has helped me sooo much in my process!
I just used the Myers-Briggs to test one of the mains in the book I'm working on and I'm 100% not surprised. I think I have him pretty much downpat. Thanks for the video. And the resources. :)
I was battling my outline just yesterday; this came at the perfect time. Great video as always! I can already see myself coming back to it a million times.
Super helpful. I'm def a methodological plotter with a bit of intuitive plotting. I've been using save the cat but I noticed as I was outlining things were coming intuitively. I finished my outline, but I'm nervous to start my manuscript because I've never finished a novel before but I've never plotted before either. It felt so good to plot chapter by chapter. I do get concerned with my voice. This is like Myers Briggs for writers lol
the worksheet point at 7:16 is so frrrrrr!!! i filled out a 70-something question character sheet for years thinking i needed to know their favorite food, theme song, pet dog's breed etc and i'd try to get them on the page and...nothing lmao
The fact that this video has CERO dislikes is a testament of how good, helpful and well intentioned videos made by Ellen really are. Thanks again. PS. Me, I'm still struggling with my inhability to add more information to something written without it completely disorienting me. BTW. For me, these instructives are the equivalent of talking to another person about my (very stagnant) process. I think it's really helping. Like a wound slowly healing. So thank you.
I'm basically as much of a methodological plotter as is possible to get. I think that's a big reason why I've been okay to work on the finest details worldbuilding and plotting, even to the extent of constructing a population density map for my fantasy world.
Okay, now I'm at least sure that I'm not a methodological plotter because lots of things this type does, like planning out the atmosphere of the scene or the length of the pieces, seem so unnecessary, it all comes naturally to me. Still, plenty of the techniques are so interesting, I'm eager to use them when I start editing my novel. I love how you pointed out that being a methodological writer doesn't mean that you can't use intuition. And I think the same is true for intuitive writers: you might rely on your senses and yet sometimes use the methodology to improve some aspects. Thank you very much for the valuable advice!
I'm definitely a mythological plotter more than anything else. I always thought it could be very helpful if I did try to have my own personalized template, and your callout of this has definitely pushed me to start. My method is gonna be reverse engineering from stories/sections I've wrote before to come up with a template that lets me feel more confident to start writing once I have those details filled.
Thank you, Ellen, for this series. It's been nothing but helpful. First I think I'm a methodological pantser, but like you said I also can pick one-two tips and tricks from other types that worked/will work for me. I don't want to rush you but well, I can't wait for the last type, intuitive pantser! 😄
Regarding tone: I couldn't agree more. I find I'm much more successful with a given scene or chapter if I take a moment to clearly define the starting tone, midpoint tone, and ending tone of the scene just before I draft it. I feel it gives each scene it's own emotional arc that supports the overall tone of the story. It also seems to work whether writing an active scene (define scene goal, attempt goal, outcome) as well as reflective / reactive scenes (evaluate recent events, process meaning of these events, make new plan). I put my ST / MT / ET (starting, mid, and ending tone) in the notepad area of Scrivener along with a bullet point order of events or points to hit in dialogue / description. I wait to do this mini-breakdown until just before I draft so it feels like a natural transition from the previous scene.
I just wanted to thank you for this. I struggle with finding confidence in my voice. I often struggle to finish things because my early drafts lack those polished craft elements. I've often felt like I wasn't good enough yet, when its really that the draft isn't good enough yet.
Okay, so I knew, without a doubt, I'm a methodological plotter once I heard it's description. In fact, I'm on the far end of it. But, there's a piece of advice that will make my life so much easier. The bit on voice. I'd been getting stuck just as described, and writing the same scene over and over, and I just didn't like doing that. But, it never occurred to me to just write the whole darn thing, then focus in on one aspect of voice over the story, then another, then another. That sounds so much more fun (and, to be honest, useful, too!) THANK YOU!!! 😁
just watched the Intuitive Pantser and then came to this to see the difference, and it's chilling to feel how relevant these tips are for me compared to the other video. It feels like Ellen was speaking specifically about me for all of the examples 😅
This was very helpful, Ellen. Because I'm so focused on my story and characters, I haven't planned upfront for tone. Thank you! All elements should involve a decision, then.
Talking it out is often when _I_ see the problems. It's not that others make suggestions, but that I find the problems and solutions myself by talking to others.
As I may have said before, you need all these thank yous for the work you put in for our collective behalf. Not gushing. I've been writing, and studying writing, for years. Still, you never fail to remind me of lessons long forgotten. -Cheers.
Other people have already said it, but planning out tone is such a great idea. Just, all the advice here is so practical, even going into revisions. I've been looking for something like this for years!
Thank you so much for those videos! I guess I'm more an Intuitive Plotter type (although I've resonated more with some advice for Methodological Pantsers) and now I see why I feel uncomfortable with most of the advice in the writing community, which tends to be far more Methodological Plotter oriented. Methodology gives me headaches and that's about it
My voice keeps being pretty distant, as soon as I try to get more emotional I start feeling embarassed by my own writing. But there is still an evolution within the drafts. My first draft is almost every-day speech, while the final one is definitly more refined. I would almost say that my first draft, probably my second as well has no voice in that sense. It's just words on a page making somewhat coherent sentences in a somewhat coherent story. I also tend to swing around between types depending on the project. Somewhere between methodological plotter, methodological pantser and intuitive plotter.
This is absolutely your best video for me. I feel like you are sitting in my house chatting with me about my story. I've already been through it twice and expect I will listen again a couple of times. I am clearly in the methodological plotter space. I have been working on all my story ideas and figuring out how they need to relate in structures. I feel like I almost have it. Your comments about finding the story structure words that makes sense is very freeing. I do have one nagging issue with my understanding of the story structure. So many different people call the hook, inciting incident and the 1st plot point different things and it seems sometimes they equate them. Some folks put them at certain percentages. I don't get the idea yet within my story idea. Help.
I'm so glad you like the video! I'm working right now on a video about the first quarter. It will go along with the video I posted about the status quo. It should be posted within the next three weeks (I'm not sure how long it will take to finish). A lot of different terms are thrown out in discussions of story structure. Sometimes the chosen term is confusing (it sounds like it would mean something different) and other times it's referring to an optional (rather than mandatory) plot point, and still other times you will find the term being used to mean something completely different by different people. I'm working right now on how to iron all of this out in a way that will hopefully shed light on what the first quarter should look like.
I think I identified with the methodological pantser the most, cuz I just HATE plotting it kills my creativity, but there’s a LOT of good tips here that I could also see myself using. I may try plotting a few more times, maybe I just haven’t found what works for me yet🤔
Oh this is gold! You know, I want quite sure if I was a methodological pantser until watching this video. Some of your tips had me all like "Stop peeking at my drafts!" 🤣🙈 Specifically I've always had a big problem figuring how long a scene would be, which has screwed my act- level pacing several times. No longer, thanks to your tips! Thanks, Ellen, you knocked this one out the park!
OMG FINALLY PLEASE AND THANK YOU!!! My personality type video! It also answered my roadblock with what to do with character arcs. I know what overall things I want my characters to do/change in the story. But I never felt like I knew enough about how they work to write them down. Just felt generic.
I'm starting to think that I'm not "one type" and like you said in the intro & 3 videos so far, a lot of writers (including myself) are probably somewhere between two or more "types" on the two continuums. Thank you for the idea on having multiple options for plot points! I did that for reactions with some scenes while outlining and while drafting. It was very basic so it's worth trying that approach to some plot points, since I already went through the trouble to plot a lot in advance. I suspect that I might be most like the Intuitive Pantser, even when I'm writing projects much longer than short or micro fiction so I look forward to the Intuitive Pantser video. All of your videos are amazing, Ellen! I believe there's something to learn from them, no matter the "type" of writer & amount of experience one has! Have a wonderful day! 🌸
This was so ridiculously helpful to take a detailed look at my process ❤ you've just shone a light on many aspects of my writing habits that I've barely thought twice about!
Wow moments are my favorite part to create. I'm writing a rom com with the forbidden love/enemies to lovers trope. I have a list of all the expected scenes (first time interactions, small moments where they connect, characters realizing their attraction, confession, first kiss, etc) and I twist every one of them from serious into something ridiculous.
I can think of so many pieces of media that could have benefitted from this cause a lot of 'methodical' advice is all about structure, logic, dynamicism, word use etc and not about *flavor* , & you have many tips here related to that (like tone, aesthetic, character distinctiveness & contrast, eye-catching moments...) & flavor is a lot of what gets a work dedicated fans & memorability. It's probably as simple as just putting it on ppl's radar as yet another thing to plan out. "Remember to put in flavor" bam, done, the evil is defeated, more interesting books & tv shows for everyone.
Thank you for this video which resonates my situation. Everything you discuss actually helps me trigger more ideas that are relevant to my project. Tone is very much part of this. Just need to re-organise my jigsaw pieces again now 😊 and may be finish my first draft soon !!
It‘s interesting to learn how other writers think and work, even if the ideas might not be right for me. Although I‘m always grateful for help concerning character arc/building. The part about planning the tone is extremely interesting!
Ellen Brock, novel editor, always deserves thumbs up for new posts :) ALSO! Thank you for these videos breaking down writer types, their pros and cons, as well as what will/may not/wont help us as writers. Your videos are always super helpful!!
@@EllenBrock No no no! I LOVE EM!!!! :) They're awesome and helped me learn about my own writing style in a much more comprehensive way! Thank you, really!!!!
Man this would have been so helpful last year before I started my first novel. In some ways my story is a second draft, having created the world and told it to my son as a bed time story. Still I know when it comes to book two I will have learnt so much, that it should actually be a much better process. Anyways very helpful video as are everything you seem to upload. Many thanks and look forward to the next one!
About the voice: My first draft almost always sounds like a report. Everything is short and effective, but boring. I need this to find to voice and tone later. It's a normal part of my process. And I feel it got better over the stories I wrote. My new first drafts get better through editing older drafts and getting conscious about my voice more.
Thanks for the video! This is definitely a big help. It made me realize something that is definitely going to be a problem for me when I get to the editing stage: I wrote the plot outline from scratch rather than using any sort of template, and since I didn't really know what I was doing at the time, it's a mess of scattered notes spread across multiple documents, and I have no idea how I'm going to put it all together for the editing phase.
Very helpful video. I've been really enjoying this series so far and I'm super excited for the next video. I'm also looking forward to this advanced story structure series, since I'm a bit of a story structure nerd.
Some writers have worldbuilder's disease... I will fill out outline after outline after outline lol, thanks for tips! This is really helpful for putting certain aspects in perspective.
This one isn't me, so I'm watching this more for perspective. Sometimes explaining the problem can directly give you material for the protagonist's dilemma. If you're thinking how on earth is my character going to get out of this, maybe they are too.
If I may request, please when you do the advanced series on plotting and outlining, make a playlist and include in the videos the rough percentages where the key points should fall in a standard structure. Also, I'm interested in the theory behind deviating from standard plot structures and how to make it work.
The only method that makes sense to me is Abbie Emmon's three-act story structure. I recently just started to not rush through outlining it. Very helpful.
Thank you so much. Really helpful tips! I agree with the need for customization. 💪 Lord, all those plot-only videos aren't motivating the rest of the creative add hemisphere. 😉 Can't wait for the intuitive pantser video :)
I haven't seen your intuitive plotters video yet, because I just found this video/series, but this is driving home that I'm very much an intuitive writer. This style of working seems so foreign to me. However, I think I am struggling with editing my plot/novel because I am so heavily intuitive leaning that's hard sometimes to work out what my story NEEDS when I don't just KNOW what should be there. I know what works and why, but I don't know what isn't there and whether what isn't there doesn't work, if that makes any sense. Feeling kind of stuck because I'm plagued with a constant feeling of missing SOMETHING. Have been trying more methodological thinking lately without knowing it, I guess, but it isn't coming painlessly. Starting to feel like my tone is too complicated, but I can't let anything go, because I want it all.
My plotting works about as well as using a $3 bill in a grocery store. The idea was followed but the basis of the story went so far off the rails, Ideas and concepts ended up being added with out ever being plotted! This novel was to be simple but it ended after almost a million word was put into it. Its was divided into 7 smaller novels but now I concluded that it needs more division. SO much for plotting! However its one of my favorite stories and sometimes I will listen to it on mp3.
I spend a lot of time writing things, and then immediately polishing, and then deleting and rewriting and polishing again (this includes comments on UA-cam videos because I'm mentally ill). In books, I've realized I should save that for later.
Hi Ellen, thank you for your wonderful videos! Can you kindly suggest tools to help organize thoughts for new novel writers who are MPs? For example, I have ideas about main characters yet I'm not sure how to create a 'character profile' (and I also believe 2 different templates for main characters and secondary characters would be helpful). I have ideas about twists and 'wow moments' yet I don't think an outline is an appropriate document to capture those ideas. I am also interested in world-building tools if you can suggest some for MP's. Thank you!
00:01 Intro
02:10 Find the right amount of plotting for you
03:45 Use a story structure template
Personalize a template from different systems
06:20 Avoid pointless or ineffective worksheets
Especially character and world building worksheets
08:45 Plan your characters' personalities
Big 5 personality traits
Myers-Briggs
11:55 Define the character arc
Flaw/false belief/wound
End of arc
14:10 Don't leave tone to chance
Mix of 2 or 3
17:15 Brainstorm multiple plot trajectories
Beware of predictable plots
18:25 Be honest about whether a plot point works
Don't rush the process
20:10 Plan in some "wow" moments
Don't use cliches
22:05 Consider scene length
Helps estimate length of each story section
23:30 Plan the scene structure
Beginning, middle, end
Goal, conflict, resolution
Helps evaluate scenes - make scene more interesting, estimate word count
25:10 When you're stuck on the outline, explain the problem (to yourself or someone else)
Methodological plotters take advice well
27:50 Update your outline as you write (or at least before you edit)
29:00 Edit the outline before the novel itself
30:10 Start revisions by looking at the placement of the plot points
Check the word counts
31:55 Don't panic when your voice isn't strong in the first draft
Work on a scene at a time OR one aspect (e.g. emotional arc, character's dialog, descriptions) at a time
33:45 Don't ignore your gut
Intuition can sometimes be better than methodology
34:40 Outro
Thank you so much for all of these kinds of videos!
While I'm a pantser (learned from you!), a lot of videos out there dont explain much on the ACTUAL writing styles and/or give tips as to hone your own style of writing. These videos have been awesome at explaining so many quirks in my own writing styles that I never realized had names 🤣
Thanks!!
Thank you Kit!
Methodological vs intuitive...as a truck driver aspiring to be a writer, I see these two types in traffic, too.😀
Haha! Gold!
@@qine6559 😀
😆😆😆
My grandfather owned a trucking company. If he were still here, I bet you could sit up for hours and share stories. Y’all always have the best ones!!
@@TheRonnieaj 😀
As someone who sits in a TMA truck all day/night doing nothing, and also aspiring to write, I see mostly chaotic nutbaggery in traffic.
As an MFA graduate, thank you so much for your practical and focused approach. There's* an ocean of videos with authors scolding other writers about what not to do. This is much more helpful advice. Cheers!
Glad it was helpful!
My jaw dropped when you started talking about tone!! In all my years of taking creative writing classes, I've never heard of planning tone out in advance. Despite this, I do it all the time, but have always felt that it was weird/uncreative/un-writerly of me, like tone should come way more naturally to me. Thank you for validating that this is a real, writerly thing I can do!
I felt kind of the same way about "explaining the problem".
i love how you've presented the idea that anyone might be anywhere on this matrix not only as an overall writer but for each different aspect of the writing process, and that you're not trying to put any single person into any single bin. it sounds obvious and simple but 🧐🧐🧐 clearly it isn't lol. ty again for sharing your insights with us, ellen!!!
ELLEN. This material can be the next popular book on writing. PART ONE: Writer Types. PART TWO: 100 Writing Exercises to Determine and Develop Your Strengths.
JUST what I asked for next! Though I just called it 'a test'.
Wow, this was absolutely eye-opening. I was totally convinced I was a methodological pantser, but now I've realised that I'm probably a methodological plotter who hates plotting (because of a bad experience in the past). I guess it's time to give it another go.
I fully empathize with you, and am in the same place. It honestly sounds more fun but I realize I am not too intuitive so I need outline. Meh, as long as it turns into an awesome novel irdc. Agree?
@@arjunsrinivasanr5813 Haha, I wrote this comment two years ago, and I have since come to realise (also thanks to Ellen's videos) that I'm probably an intuitive plotter. I thought I was methodological because I'm good at analyzing literature and at recognizing the underlying story structures. But that's not how I come up with ideas.
My idea generating process is much more intuitive, but I can't rely on having sparks of inspiration whenever I sit down, so I need to plan ahead.
In any case I agree, the quality of the novel is all that matters. :)
@@asharablack I certainly wasnt expecting a response since i saw the 2yr timestamp haha.
Anyways, I am not entirely sure which type I am, but I am leaning more towards methodological plotter right now. I have a bunch of brainstormed ideas but having NO structure just makes it too random.
I prefer to have a basic outline going forward so I believe I am a methodological plotter but I guess I'm still in trial and error phase.
Thank you for sharing your experiences mate. Cheers!
The thing I love about you series is that you made me understand that there are different ways to write and none of them is right or wrong, some things just don't work for certain types. And it seems to me that UA-cam is now flooded with methodological pantsers giving writing advice and they made me think that my writing process is a disaster and I must completely change my approach, make more detailed plans and character worksheets, etc. And I think if I did so, it could have killed all the joy of writing for me.
Ah I remember taking the Myers-Briggs test several years ago. Turns out I am an Advocate and it sounded pretty spot on. I forgot what personality types my characters ended up with but I do remember trying to force the answers in the direction I believed they were.
Advocates unite!
I started this thinking it'd be interesting to see different sorts of writers, see what makes em tick. Get good ideas from that. However I finished the video convinced this one is actually me!
Thank you so much for stating writing concepts in such a comprehensive way!
Your points here about not leaving tone to chance are so appreciated. Such a great piece of advice that doesn’t get enough attention
These have been the best 35 minutes of writing instruction I've had in a long time. Your guidance is clear, specific, and encouraging. It makes me feel as though this novel-writing thing is actually doable. Can't thank you enough.
Could you possibly make a video where you can give methodological plotting methods for foreshadowing? Kind of like a story structure, but for things like establishing a characters track record of behaviors on smaller scales that foreshadow a greater character flaw/misbelief?
This is brilliant. You're brilliant. It's like you've been in my head. Thank you again for a fantastic video. I can't wait for the next one.
I'm so glad you enjoyed it!
Enneagram is also a really useful personality type tool. And a tip with brainstorming that worked for me was making a list of 20 ideas. It forces you to think beyond the obvious to the more outrageous or ridiculous, which sometimes sparks a more believable solution.
Good ideas! I totally forgot about the enneagram. I haven't read up on that in a really long time.
@@EllenBrock For me, it's much easier to visualise and conceptualise the enneagram types in context. I suppose I'm a visual learner. With MBTI I'm only able to conceptualise the two types I fall between, and the acronyms don't really help. I think it's much easier to understand a 1 and 9, and how some people fall between both.
omg she's back 😊 (I didn't notice the last few vids lol)
Can I just say that I'm very happy that you are back to posting videos? I kept wondering where you went, and it's nice to see your face and tips pop up in my subscriptions once again.
Thank you so much!
I love using the Enneagram for character creation, especially with inner arcs. At least for newbies, it's a little easier to maneuver than the Meyers-Briggs, while still getting you into the character's heart.
I also think that quietly imagining your character in critical scenes can spark the intuition of a methodical writer.
I’ve been waiting for this one omg 💜 I’m neck deep in developmental edits for my manuscript. Your channel is my absolute favorite & has helped me sooo much in my process!
I am in the same process and I fully agree❤️❤️❤️❤️. Best channel for editing by far.
I just used the Myers-Briggs to test one of the mains in the book I'm working on and I'm 100% not surprised. I think I have him pretty much downpat. Thanks for the video. And the resources. :)
@@MagikCat112 ??
I was battling my outline just yesterday; this came at the perfect time. Great video as always! I can already see myself coming back to it a million times.
So glad to see you back :D
Super helpful. I'm def a methodological plotter with a bit of intuitive plotting. I've been using save the cat but I noticed as I was outlining things were coming intuitively. I finished my outline, but I'm nervous to start my manuscript because I've never finished a novel before but I've never plotted before either. It felt so good to plot chapter by chapter. I do get concerned with my voice. This is like Myers Briggs for writers lol
the worksheet point at 7:16 is so frrrrrr!!! i filled out a 70-something question character sheet for years thinking i needed to know their favorite food, theme song, pet dog's breed etc and i'd try to get them on the page and...nothing lmao
The fact that this video has CERO dislikes is a testament of how good, helpful and well intentioned videos made by Ellen really are.
Thanks again.
PS. Me, I'm still struggling with my inhability to add more information to something written without it completely disorienting me. BTW. For me, these instructives are the equivalent of talking to another person about my (very stagnant) process. I think it's really helping. Like a wound slowly healing. So thank you.
I'm basically as much of a methodological plotter as is possible to get. I think that's a big reason why I've been okay to work on the finest details worldbuilding and plotting, even to the extent of constructing a population density map for my fantasy world.
Okay, now I'm at least sure that I'm not a methodological plotter because lots of things this type does, like planning out the atmosphere of the scene or the length of the pieces, seem so unnecessary, it all comes naturally to me. Still, plenty of the techniques are so interesting, I'm eager to use them when I start editing my novel. I love how you pointed out that being a methodological writer doesn't mean that you can't use intuition. And I think the same is true for intuitive writers: you might rely on your senses and yet sometimes use the methodology to improve some aspects.
Thank you very much for the valuable advice!
As always, very useful and helpful advice.
You have my Thanks 💖
So awesome seeing you posting regular content again!
The tip about only outlining relative information is definitely something I need to observe lol
I'm definitely a mythological plotter more than anything else. I always thought it could be very helpful if I did try to have my own personalized template, and your callout of this has definitely pushed me to start. My method is gonna be reverse engineering from stories/sections I've wrote before to come up with a template that lets me feel more confident to start writing once I have those details filled.
Thank you, Ellen, for this series. It's been nothing but helpful. First I think I'm a methodological pantser, but like you said I also can pick one-two tips and tricks from other types that worked/will work for me. I don't want to rush you but well, I can't wait for the last type, intuitive pantser! 😄
Regarding tone: I couldn't agree more. I find I'm much more successful with a given scene or chapter if I take a moment to clearly define the starting tone, midpoint tone, and ending tone of the scene just before I draft it. I feel it gives each scene it's own emotional arc that supports the overall tone of the story. It also seems to work whether writing an active scene (define scene goal, attempt goal, outcome) as well as reflective / reactive scenes (evaluate recent events, process meaning of these events, make new plan).
I put my ST / MT / ET (starting, mid, and ending tone) in the notepad area of Scrivener along with a bullet point order of events or points to hit in dialogue / description. I wait to do this mini-breakdown until just before I draft so it feels like a natural transition from the previous scene.
I am here for the algorithm because these are my favorite videos. I'm a methodological pantser so I have no thoughts on the video itself :)
Hey, Ellen, great to see you again!
I never considered the difference between methodological worksheets versus intuitive worksheets. Very helpful, thank you!
Love the advice about editing the outline before editing the manuscript.
I just wanted to thank you for this. I struggle with finding confidence in my voice. I often struggle to finish things because my early drafts lack those polished craft elements. I've often felt like I wasn't good enough yet, when its really that the draft isn't good enough yet.
Okay, so I knew, without a doubt, I'm a methodological plotter once I heard it's description. In fact, I'm on the far end of it. But, there's a piece of advice that will make my life so much easier. The bit on voice.
I'd been getting stuck just as described, and writing the same scene over and over, and I just didn't like doing that. But, it never occurred to me to just write the whole darn thing, then focus in on one aspect of voice over the story, then another, then another. That sounds so much more fun (and, to be honest, useful, too!)
THANK YOU!!! 😁
Three down, one more to go. The one I’m waiting for. Just what you said in the first “four types” video was so helpful. A duh moment.
just watched the Intuitive Pantser and then came to this to see the difference, and it's chilling to feel how relevant these tips are for me compared to the other video. It feels like Ellen was speaking specifically about me for all of the examples 😅
This was very helpful, Ellen. Because I'm so focused on my story and characters, I haven't planned upfront for tone. Thank you! All elements should involve a decision, then.
Thank you for making these videos. They're always informative. I can't wait to hear the updated structure video!!
Oh wow, thanks for sharing my plotting outline template! Love your videos :)
This was WONDERFULLY affirming and helpful. Thanks so much Ellen!
Talking it out is often when _I_ see the problems. It's not that others make suggestions, but that I find the problems and solutions myself by talking to others.
Thank you for all the information and ideas. Can't wait for the intuitive pantser video, which might describe my process the best
As I may have said before, you need all these thank yous for the work you put in for our collective behalf. Not gushing.
I've been writing, and studying writing, for years. Still, you never fail to remind me of lessons long forgotten.
-Cheers.
Wow, thank you!
@@EllenBrock Of course, the downside of all your success is, I found you too late to employ you. (Color me selfish.) :)
Other people have already said it, but planning out tone is such a great idea. Just, all the advice here is so practical, even going into revisions. I've been looking for something like this for years!
Thank you so much for those videos! I guess I'm more an Intuitive Plotter type (although I've resonated more with some advice for Methodological Pantsers) and now I see why I feel uncomfortable with most of the advice in the writing community, which tends to be far more Methodological Plotter oriented. Methodology gives me headaches and that's about it
this was INCREDIBLY helpful and useful. thank you so much Ellen.
You're so welcome!
My voice keeps being pretty distant, as soon as I try to get more emotional I start feeling embarassed by my own writing. But there is still an evolution within the drafts. My first draft is almost every-day speech, while the final one is definitly more refined. I would almost say that my first draft, probably my second as well has no voice in that sense. It's just words on a page making somewhat coherent sentences in a somewhat coherent story. I also tend to swing around between types depending on the project. Somewhere between methodological plotter, methodological pantser and intuitive plotter.
This is absolutely your best video for me. I feel like you are sitting in my house chatting with me about my story. I've already been through it twice and expect I will listen again a couple of times. I am clearly in the methodological plotter space. I have been working on all my story ideas and figuring out how they need to relate in structures. I feel like I almost have it. Your comments about finding the story structure words that makes sense is very freeing. I do have one nagging issue with my understanding of the story structure. So many different people call the hook, inciting incident and the 1st plot point different things and it seems sometimes they equate them. Some folks put them at certain percentages. I don't get the idea yet within my story idea. Help.
I'm so glad you like the video! I'm working right now on a video about the first quarter. It will go along with the video I posted about the status quo. It should be posted within the next three weeks (I'm not sure how long it will take to finish). A lot of different terms are thrown out in discussions of story structure. Sometimes the chosen term is confusing (it sounds like it would mean something different) and other times it's referring to an optional (rather than mandatory) plot point, and still other times you will find the term being used to mean something completely different by different people. I'm working right now on how to iron all of this out in a way that will hopefully shed light on what the first quarter should look like.
Great advice, Ellen! It felt like you were speaking directly to me. Thanks so much for this!
Ohhh! Finally! Thank you! I've been waiting for this one.
Nice! I am very much looking forward to the intuitive pantser video. I'm quite sure I'm in that group.
I think I identified with the methodological pantser the most, cuz I just HATE plotting it kills my creativity, but there’s a LOT of good tips here that I could also see myself using. I may try plotting a few more times, maybe I just haven’t found what works for me yet🤔
Oh this is gold! You know, I want quite sure if I was a methodological pantser until watching this video. Some of your tips had me all like "Stop peeking at my drafts!" 🤣🙈
Specifically I've always had a big problem figuring how long a scene would be, which has screwed my act- level pacing several times. No longer, thanks to your tips!
Thanks, Ellen, you knocked this one out the park!
So glad you found it helpful!
OMG FINALLY PLEASE AND THANK YOU!!! My personality type video! It also answered my roadblock with what to do with character arcs. I know what overall things I want my characters to do/change in the story. But I never felt like I knew enough about how they work to write them down. Just felt generic.
Thank you Ellen, you are a very helpful teacher, I have enjoyed your spunkly heart felt delivery, very cute!
I'm starting to think that I'm not "one type" and like you said in the intro & 3 videos so far, a lot of writers (including myself) are probably somewhere between two or more "types" on the two continuums. Thank you for the idea on having multiple options for plot points! I did that for reactions with some scenes while outlining and while drafting. It was very basic so it's worth trying that approach to some plot points, since I already went through the trouble to plot a lot in advance. I suspect that I might be most like the Intuitive Pantser, even when I'm writing projects much longer than short or micro fiction so I look forward to the Intuitive Pantser video. All of your videos are amazing, Ellen! I believe there's something to learn from them, no matter the "type" of writer & amount of experience one has! Have a wonderful day! 🌸
Thank you! You have a wonderful day too!
Awesome video! I will have to re-watch it and take notes. Already bookmarked!
All your timestamp titles should be post-its around my computer screen
This was so ridiculously helpful to take a detailed look at my process ❤ you've just shone a light on many aspects of my writing habits that I've barely thought twice about!
Interesting video, thanks Ellen.
So helpful! Thank you so much for this! It has helped me understand my writing process better.
Wow moments are my favorite part to create. I'm writing a rom com with the forbidden love/enemies to lovers trope. I have a list of all the expected scenes (first time interactions, small moments where they connect, characters realizing their attraction, confession, first kiss, etc) and I twist every one of them from serious into something ridiculous.
I can think of so many pieces of media that could have benefitted from this cause a lot of 'methodical' advice is all about structure, logic, dynamicism, word use etc and not about *flavor* , & you have many tips here related to that (like tone, aesthetic, character distinctiveness & contrast, eye-catching moments...) & flavor is a lot of what gets a work dedicated fans & memorability. It's probably as simple as just putting it on ppl's radar as yet another thing to plan out. "Remember to put in flavor" bam, done, the evil is defeated, more interesting books & tv shows for everyone.
This video is Packed with great guidance!!! Thank you 🌺
Omg I'm so happy you're back! These videos are really helpful, thanks a bunch!
You are so well-spoken and helpful. Thank you!
Thank you for this video which resonates my situation.
Everything you discuss actually helps me trigger more ideas that are relevant to my project.
Tone is very much part of this.
Just need to re-organise my jigsaw pieces again now 😊 and may be finish my first draft soon !!
It‘s interesting to learn how other writers think and work, even if the ideas might not be right for me. Although I‘m always grateful for help concerning character arc/building. The part about planning the tone is extremely interesting!
Ellen Brock, novel editor, always deserves thumbs up for new posts :)
ALSO! Thank you for these videos breaking down writer types, their pros and cons, as well as what will/may not/wont help us as writers. Your videos are always super helpful!!
Glad you like them!
@@EllenBrock No no no!
I LOVE EM!!!! :)
They're awesome and helped me learn about my own writing style in a much more comprehensive way!
Thank you, really!!!!
Man this would have been so helpful last year before I started my first novel. In some ways my story is a second draft, having created the world and told it to my son as a bed time story. Still I know when it comes to book two I will have learnt so much, that it should actually be a much better process.
Anyways very helpful video as are everything you seem to upload. Many thanks and look forward to the next one!
About the voice: My first draft almost always sounds like a report. Everything is short and effective, but boring. I need this to find to voice and tone later. It's a normal part of my process. And I feel it got better over the stories I wrote. My new first drafts get better through editing older drafts and getting conscious about my voice more.
OMG I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO💪🥰
You're so welcome!
Thanks for the video! This is definitely a big help. It made me realize something that is definitely going to be a problem for me when I get to the editing stage: I wrote the plot outline from scratch rather than using any sort of template, and since I didn't really know what I was doing at the time, it's a mess of scattered notes spread across multiple documents, and I have no idea how I'm going to put it all together for the editing phase.
Thank you so much for this! This has turned out to be how I write best and most easily. I'm glad for a video with more advice on it.
Very helpful video. I've been really enjoying this series so far and I'm super excited for the next video. I'm also looking forward to this advanced story structure series, since I'm a bit of a story structure nerd.
Some writers have worldbuilder's disease... I will fill out outline after outline after outline lol, thanks for tips! This is really helpful for putting certain aspects in perspective.
This one isn't me, so I'm watching this more for perspective. Sometimes explaining the problem can directly give you material for the protagonist's dilemma. If you're thinking how on earth is my character going to get out of this, maybe they are too.
If I may request, please when you do the advanced series on plotting and outlining, make a playlist and include in the videos the rough percentages where the key points should fall in a standard structure. Also, I'm interested in the theory behind deviating from standard plot structures and how to make it work.
You are one of my favorites. Thank you SO much!
Really helpful. I will be applying this advice.
Thanks for the video, Ellen! I definitely took some notes from this one. Hehe.
The only method that makes sense to me is Abbie Emmon's three-act story structure. I recently just started to not rush through outlining it. Very helpful.
Thank you so much. Really helpful tips! I agree with the need for customization. 💪 Lord, all those plot-only videos aren't motivating the rest of the creative add hemisphere. 😉 Can't wait for the intuitive pantser video :)
Plotting definitely helps. But carrying out the story, that’s where the challenge is.
This video is fantastic. Thank you.
Good video! It's really inspiring good helpful!
I haven't seen your intuitive plotters video yet, because I just found this video/series, but this is driving home that I'm very much an intuitive writer. This style of working seems so foreign to me. However, I think I am struggling with editing my plot/novel because I am so heavily intuitive leaning that's hard sometimes to work out what my story NEEDS when I don't just KNOW what should be there. I know what works and why, but I don't know what isn't there and whether what isn't there doesn't work, if that makes any sense. Feeling kind of stuck because I'm plagued with a constant feeling of missing SOMETHING. Have been trying more methodological thinking lately without knowing it, I guess, but it isn't coming painlessly. Starting to feel like my tone is too complicated, but I can't let anything go, because I want it all.
Another awesome video! Thanks so much!
My plotting works about as well as using a $3 bill in a grocery store. The idea was followed but the basis of the story went so far off the rails, Ideas and concepts ended up being added with out ever being plotted! This novel was to be simple but it ended after almost a million word was put into it. Its was divided into 7 smaller novels but now I concluded that it needs more division. SO much for plotting! However its one of my favorite stories and sometimes I will listen to it on mp3.
Hi Ellen, love your videos :) Are you going to do an intuitive pantser vid? Thanks!
I didn't realize how intuitive I was until I watched this. Or, maybe more accurately, how many intuitive methods I use.
I spend a lot of time writing things, and then immediately polishing, and then deleting and rewriting and polishing again (this includes comments on UA-cam videos because I'm mentally ill). In books, I've realized I should save that for later.
You are seriously awesome at this. How did you get so good at this?^^ I am in awe and thank you for your videos!
Super helpful, thank you!
This is so awesome! Thank you, Ellen :)
Hi Ellen, thank you for your wonderful videos! Can you kindly suggest tools to help organize thoughts for new novel writers who are MPs? For example, I have ideas about main characters yet I'm not sure how to create a 'character profile' (and I also believe 2 different templates for main characters and secondary characters would be helpful). I have ideas about twists and 'wow moments' yet I don't think an outline is an appropriate document to capture those ideas. I am also interested in world-building tools if you can suggest some for MP's. Thank you!
Ahhh, the Brandon Sanderson type!